The dead and not so dead.

[Tawmis]

Was reading the Wikipedia page... and something caught my eye...

Omega Flight Main article: Omega Flight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Flight)
Sasquatch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasquatch_%28comics%29), Guardian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_%28Marvel_Comics%29), Vindicator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindicator_%28comics%29), Shaman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaman_%28comics%29), Major Mapleleaf II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Mapleleaf#Major_Mapleleaf_.28Lou_Sadler_Jr.. 29), and both Pucks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puck_%28comics%29) are attacked by a new villain, the Collective (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xorn) (inhabiting the body of U.S. postal worker Michael Pointer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pointer_%28comics%29)), in New Avengers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Avengers_%28comics%29) #16. Pointer continues on to the United States, leaving their bodies in the Yukon Territory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukon).

Though writer Brian Michael Bendis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Michael_Bendis) heavily implied the deaths of the above-mentioned roster of Alpha Flight at the hands of the Collective, later writers backpedaled from this sweeping declaration.[citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Sasquatch resurfaced alive and well, with only Shaman, Vindicator and Guardian officially being acknowledged as being dead; it is later confirmed that the original Puck died at the Collective's hands in the Chaos War special featuring the team.[citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]

_____________________________

When was this (declared that only Shaman, Vindicator and Guardian died?) And wouldn't that mean that Puck's daughter is alive and well?

[Phil]

I wouldn't take Wikipedia as gospel.
It's incorrect and doesn't have a source to back it up.

[-K-M-]

Yeah Puck II and Major Mapleleaf II were referenced to have died in the handbooks. I'd have to check but I believe it was from the Collective's nano-scorpions

intetersting to note from the handbooks again it was implied Lllan may have had a hand with the Collective killing the team.

[Phil]

Again, I think that was just poetic license and the handbook writers used the death of AF to link to an old foreshadowing line of Llan's; it was more that he predicted it than made it happen.

[-K-M-]

I disagree. The exact wording is as follows

"....forcing Llan to flee from the Earth dimension, but not before cursing the Alphans to suffer horrible deaths before the earths ultimate corruption, a curse whose workings may have finally begun with the teams recent decimination by Collective"

that's more then just seeing the future, he laid out an actual curse on them and mention "whose workings" may be attributed to their death with the collective. That doesn't sound like a passive prediction but an actual spell/curse that was working to achieve its goal

[Phil]

Yeah, but it's fanservicing speculation with "may" being the keyword.

I could curse you to die here and now. It doesn't mean I'll be responsible for your death when it happens. (And I'm in no way wishing your death!!!)

I practically guarantee Bendis had no thought of fulfilling Llan's curse and high chances are he's never even heard of Llan or the curse.

It's nice of the handbook writers to link it in, but lets face it there's about 1% of the comic reading community who remember that curse.

[-K-M-]

Agreed that's why I said "may" in my original post as it's not definitive. However, from the wording they made it more then just seeing the future is all and actually refered to the curse "working", not passive.

Also it wouldn't be the first time another writer has expanded on the original intent of the writer. That's fairly common. May not have been a thought to bendis, but it was a thought for another which doesn't make it less credible

[Phil]

Yeah, but a handbook writer doesn't count as a story writer.

Kyle's surname being a relevant example.

[-K-M-]

I'm aware. That's why I didn't say it was definitive. However, handbook writers have given full names or back stories which were never originally said in the comics; but became referenced after the handbook entry in the comics themselves.

[Le Messor]

However, from the wording they made it more then just seeing the future is all and actually refered to the curse "working", not passive.
Also it wouldn't be the first time another writer has expanded on the original intent of the writer. That's fairly common. May not have been a thought to bendis, but it was a thought for another which doesn't make it less credible

That's true, I'm pretty sure CBR has an entire column about it.
The problem is, the Handbooks aren't continuity. So while it'd be cool if it worked out that way, it'll take more than a handbook entry to confirm it.
(Note to self, if I ever write the series...)


I'm aware. That's why I didn't say it was definitive. However, handbook writers have given full names or back stories which were never originally said in the comics; but became referenced after the handbook entry in the comics themselves.

OTOH, sometimes the Handbook writers have access to writers' plans. And sometimes writers and their plans have access to the Handbook.

~ Le Messor
"Chop your own wood, and it will warm you twice."
~ Henry Ford's Fireplace Motto

[Tawmis]

Well, the plus side - so randomly, I came across all those Marvel cards (remember those in the 90s?) - and I had a TON of them - all in their sleeves - was reading through them - and amazed at some of the bios on the back - and how much has changed since then and now (sometimes continuity is completely changed)...

So it stands to reason, that if Sasquatch did not die, for example, but Shaman did (and others) - there's a chance that those who "died" may show up - because they were not to be seen during Chaos War - so it stands to reason, that they might not have been seen - because they were not dead.

My logic is awesome!

[-K-M-]

I stand corrected, in the handbook entry it states "..overwhelming Mapleleaf and Zuzha Yu with a wave of nanoscorpions. Whether Mapleleaf or Puck survived the encounter remains to be seen"

[Tawmis]

I stand corrected, in the handbook entry it states "..overwhelming Mapleleaf and Zuzha Yu with a wave of nanoscorpions. Whether Mapleleaf or Puck survived the encounter remains to be seen"

See, so that's probably the source that the Wikipedia page is referencing - which means that both of them could still be very much alive if someone ever wanted to use them.

[Mekko Hotvle]

So my Puck Yu miniseries idea could still be done.

[Phil]

It's comics; dead or not-dead, they can still come back!

[Mekko Hotvle]

Ha...yeah. But we talking Alpha Flight, the one group Marvel seems to be scared to bring back. Just hope this time around with Ms. Marvel will be better.

[Tawmis]

Ha...yeah. But we talking Alpha Flight, the one group Marvel seems to be scared to bring back. Just hope this time around with Ms. Marvel will be better.

Intended story lines aside (where, for example, they all died to fight the Great Beasts... but were restored within 2 or 3 issues...)

I don't know. Marvel has done a good job of bringing them back - SEVERAL times.
We saw Vindicator/James explode in issue 12.
Then, by the end of Volume 1 he was back.
We saw Sasquatch killed by Snowbird. Come back as a woman. Then back as a man, by the end of Volume 1.
We saw Guardian/Heather kill Snowbird.
Once again, she returned (which isn't too much of a stretch being a demi-goddess).
We saw Marinna killed in Avengers.
Alluded in a different volume of Avengers, as potentially alive in a tube by the Master.

Then we have the Collective who "killed" Alpha Flight (per Bendis, was it?)
Then had Sasquatch show up alive and fine.

Then after Chaos War, we got Vindicator, Shaman and Snowbird back. Again.