Original Alpha Flight

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Just livin' in the past...

[-K-M-]

Nice. Going to color it?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

-K-M-:

I don't plan on coloring it, although coloring it would bring volume and 3-dimensionality to the sketches. I've been reading Andy Schmidt's The Insider's Guide to Creating Comics and Graphic Novels; I'm beginning to understand why the big 2 comic companies divide the duties up between a writer, a penciller, an inker, a letterer, and a colorist...so each can bring the best to the story, on-time.

I'm working on the penciller-inker part, at the moment.

Garry

[Garry/Al-Fan]

lost in space

[Le Messor]

So that will be your first page?

One thing I've done - I'm sure you've thought of this already - that makes drawing space easier is to draw a bunch of dots on a page. I then scan it in and flip the colours / make a negative image. It's pretty effective.

~ LM

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Cool. I will try it.

I'm doing things on a broken shoe-string, but I will try it.

It can be my first page, but right now it's just the 2nd illustration in the very, very brief history of Alpha Flight. The 1st illustration [of original Alpha Flight] is the beginning, the 2nd is the middle, and the 3rd one will be the end.

[Le Messor]

I'm doing things on a broken shoe-string, but I will try it.

Lol to the way you phrased that, sympathies about it being a thing.


It can be my first page, but right now it's just the 2nd illustration in the very, very brief history of Alpha Flight. The 1st illustration [of original Alpha Flight] is the beginning, the 2nd is the middle, and the 3rd one will be the end.

Okay, I'll have to see that when it's done.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Oblivion....or rejuvenation?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Crazy.
Creepy.
Eerie.

[Le Messor]

I don't recognise the first two... Jaxom and somebody from v2?

~ Le Messor
"Everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects"
~ Will Rogers

[Phil]

Scroll to the very bottom, dude.

[Le Messor]

The bottom of Garry's post, or the bottoms of the pdfs?

I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but I've read those and I still don't know. 8-[ :confused:

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Scroll to the very bottom, dude.

I'm confused about this, too, unless it refers to the issues the quotes come from...


I don't recognise the first two... Jaxom and somebody from v2?

1) I don't mean to be vague, however if a connection is made between the image and a character during the MANTLO era, so be it.
2) It is the ECLIPTIC.
3) DreamQueen.

~ Le Messor
"Everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects"
~ Will Rogers


The bottom of Garry's post, or the bottoms of the pdfs?

I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but I've read those and I still don't know. 8-[ :confused:

Not at all. MARVEL characters are MARVEL characters. Some of the characters are clearly who they are intended to be, some aren't.

[Le Messor]

Thanks, Garry.

Is #1 from volume 2, too, then? I don't know that series so well...

~ Le Messor
"Expect more than others think is possible."
~ Vince Lombardi

[Phil]

I'm confused about this, too, unless it refers to the issues the quotes come from...
That was what I meant.

[Le Messor]

Okay, that's less confusing. :)

[hydro]

These are awesome, Gary! Can't wait to see the rest of your work. Do you happen to have a Deviant page?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

These are awesome, Gary! Can't wait to see the rest of your work. Do you happen to have a Deviant page?
Sorry, Hydro, no Deviant page. Just thumbnail sketches on typing paper. The Insider's Guide to Creating Comics suggests laying out things in thumbnail, which I'm trying to do.

Since MARVEL has pretty much demolished the original concept of ALPHA FLIGHT and published the assassination of the original characters' character (in volume 4), it's just a nostalgic trip down memory lane.

[Le Messor]

Sorry, Hydro, no Deviant page. Just thumbnail sketches on typing paper. The Insider's Guide to Creating Comics suggests laying out things in thumbnail, which I'm trying to do.

Do they? I've recently started drawing my own comic*, and I'm doing my own weird style of layouts (sometimes thumbnails, sometimes sketching a bunch of panels I'll need, then figuring out how they'll go together on a page), but I've figured out that one advantage I have over a professional is, I have time to draft. It makes sense, but I wouldn't have thought it'd give a pro much time. (I'm not doing it 9-5 like a pro would, but it can still take weeks to do a single page.)


Since MARVEL has pretty much demolished the original concept of ALPHA FLIGHT and published the assassination of the original characters' character (in volume 4), it's just a nostalgic trip down memory lane.

Do you refer here to the Fear Itself volume? (That's the only one that fits the description, but I think of it as v5 - I imagine you're not counting Omega?)

* I got tired of doing random doodles during meetings at work, and started doing a comic instead. True story.

~ Le Messor
"Forget it. No Civil War picture ever made a nickel."
~ MGM executive, advising against investing in Gone With The Wind

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Do they? I've recently started drawing my own comic*, and I'm doing my own weird style of layouts (sometimes thumbnails, sometimes sketching a bunch of panels I'll need, then figuring out how they'll go together on a page), [do you have any drawings you want to post? G/A-F] but I've figured out that one advantage I have over a professional is, I have time to draft. It makes sense, but I wouldn't have thought it'd give a pro much time. (I'm not doing it 9-5 like a pro would, but it can still take weeks to do a single page.)

How much time and how many pages John Calimee had to produce (monthly and/or bi-weekly) is something I have been hoping someone would consider when taking his run into consideration. Getting the books out on time seemed to be the biggest concern, at that time. The consequences of not making a deadline were/are...? G/A-F

Do you refer here to the Fear Itself volume? (That's the only one that fits the description, but I think of it as v5 - I imagine you're not counting Omega?) No, I'm referring to premeditated murder with Dept. H goons in on it, destruction of public and private property, assault on police officer(s), and sedition....all of which happened in volume 4.


7/21/2023 - I went back and looked at all 8 indicia pages, which should have the official, definitive designation of what the series is called, and it doesn't refer to it as "volume 4" but it also doesn't refer to it as "Fear Itself." Just "ALPHA FLIGHT." The trade-dress on the covers of #s 1 - 4 show it ties in with the actual "Fear Itself" series, but the two comics are not the same thing.

* I got tired of doing random doodles during meetings at work, and started doing a comic instead. True story.

~ Le Messor
"Forget it. No Civil War picture ever made a nickel."
~ MGM executive, advising against investing in Gone With The Wind

I don't think that saying "The Master made me do it" is going to hold much water where "Heather's" cousins are concerned. G/A-F

[Le Messor]

I've recently started drawing my own comic
[do you have any drawings you want to post? G/A-F]

I've considered it. The only copies I have electronic at the moment are pdfs, though. I was about to say that's not suitable for (direct) posting here, but I don't actually know.
Also, I consider it to be in draft mode: I've been taking the versions I've done at work (which is up to page 14) and taking it home and redrawing it on graph paper at comic artboard size (I've got about 9 of those done), but it turns out graph paper shows up in scans far too well. I haven't inked yet. (I'll probably trace the inks onto plain paper.)

(Warning, and I know this didn't enter into your question: It isn't Alpha-related.)


How much time and how many pages John Calimee had to produce (monthly and/or bi-weekly) is something I have been hoping someone would consider when taking his run into consideration.

Yeah, but... (almost) all comic artists have that same restriction. Maybe that's part of why he's said he wasn't ready?



Do you refer here to the Fear Itself volume? (That's the only one that fits the description, but I think of it as v5 - I imagine you're not counting Omega?) No, I'm referring to premeditated murder with Dept. H goons in on it, destruction of public and private property, assault on police officer(s), and sedition....all of which happened in volume 4.

I still think you're referring to the Fear Itself volume - when I say that, I only mean the one that sprang out of Fear Itself, the latest one, which you're describing. That's the volume where Heather shot her cousin.
I'm sure it is volume 4, but I think of it as 5. Because my mind happens that way.

~ Le Messor
"Fear knocked at my door. Faith opened that door and no one was there."
~ Author Unknown

[Phil]

Yeah, Fear Itself is Volume 4, though I can understand you classing it as 5 if you include Omega Flight. (Which I actually reckon would have changed it's name to become Alpha Flight eventually, had it 'stayed' an ongoing.)

[Yankee]

I'm assuming that Garry is referring to the fear itself as volume 4, he is just refusing to address it as fear itself because he hates that arc so much he doesn't think it deserves to be known by its proper name. And as far as character assassinations go, the only two I think come anywhere near that charge are Vindicator and Sasquatch. barring the ending where he lets his brainwashed wife flee with his only child, Mac was as Mac as he'd always been. puck was Puck, Northstar and Aurora were on point, Marrina was tweaked a bit to be more punk rocker in attitude, but I didnt mind that. Now Vindicators I agree was particularly off. The implication throughout, seemed to be that Heather willingly turned her self over to the Master because she wanted Claire back so much, and that the brainwashing element of unity just turned her anger up to eleven. That means according to the writers Heather was willingly able to send Canada to its doom solely so she could save Claire.....from a stable and loving home. I don't care how much Heather was distraught over not getting Claire back, she would never have listened to the Master, ever.Now if they had Unbrainwashed her and had her have a Michael pointer moment where she relives the moment of killing her cousins and is in utter horror from what she did, I could see the damage done to her character lessened somewhat. But nope, we get a fake feel good moment with no mention of her cousins ever again. The only problem I had with Sasquatch was that out of nowhere near the end they gave him a duality crisis like the hulk. Now in the original Byrne run there was that battle for control between him and Tarnaq, but he never went hulk smash let alone actually say the phrase quatch smash.

[Le Messor]

I'm assuming that Garry is referring to the fear itself as volume 4, he is just refusing to address it as fear itself because he hates that arc so much he doesn't think it deserves to be known by its proper name.

I think what we've got here is failure to communicate!
But it's cleared up now. :)


And as far as character assassinations go, the only two I think come anywhere near that charge are Vindicator and Sasquatch.

Tha's cool, but for me I'd also say Marinna (turned from a sweet innocent girl into an angry nasty punk rocker) and Shaman (turned into an angry minority). Oh, and the comic Alpha Flight (as opposed to the team itself); turned wayyyy angry.

I dunno about Garry, but that tone of anger was the biggest problem I had with v4. (Yep, adopting the proper name now. For as long as I remember...)

~ Le Messor
"If you are patient in one moment of anger, you will escape a hundred days of sorrow."
~ Chinese Proverb

[Yankee]

Il be completely honest...... I disagree completely about the anger. Outside of heather I didn't think anyone was unusually angry from the alpha flight cast. And also Their country just turned into a dystopia overnight, and had a longtime friend in heather betray them. I'd be angry too. Two things about marinna: 1. People can be punk rockers without being angry, I saw her more as sarcastic than angry. And 2. That homegirl charm is still present as seen when Kyle and Northstar embrace and she goes awwwww.

[Le Messor]

I started thinking about how ironic (or just plain hypocritical!) it'd be if I started an angry fight* about this! :D

You make a subtle distinction about Marinna; since I haven't read the comics since they first came out, I really can't address it.

* I was never thinking about starting said fight.

~ Le Messor
"For an actress to be a success she must have the face of Venus, the brains of Minerva, the grace of Terpsichore, the memory of Macaulay, the figure of Juno, and the hide of a rhinoceros."
~ Ethel Barrymore

[Yankee]

Issue one of fear itself was the first alpha flight issue I ever read, although ironically it was the last alpha flight arc I completed. The reason I guess why Marrina was so jarring is that, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the last time prior to issue 1 of fear itself where she was present was way back when Alpha flight invaded Atlantis? Cuz I can see going from that to die earth scum being offsetting to people. Personally,as a punk rocker myself, I liked it, but then again I also liked her before that change. Now in terms of character advancement I thought volume 4 did the best ever interpretation of Aurora and Northstar out of the entire history of Alpha Flight ( I probably just violated the Ten Commandments of John Byrne with that statement )

[Le Messor]

Technically, Marinna appeared in an issue of New Avengers, but that was in the background in a bakti tank. Also in several issues of Avengers right after the Atlantis invasion you speak of.
People have given a lot of reasons for the change; me, I don't care. I care that I liked her a lot more before it than after; and that, as a reader, it came from nowhere. We'd seen her being the sweet, innocent version, then she was the punk. Iirc, the characters didn't even acknowledge there was a change.
(Note: I'm not saying I disliked her after; just that she wasn't the same character, and for me that was not an improvement.)

[Yankee]

And that's fair to each their own. I've seen both versions and liked the second one better, just because we came out with different conclusions doesn't make either of us wrong. And as far as writers go, I only feel one writer 100 percent missed the boat on what Alpha Flight should be about and that's Lobdell. He turned the characters into walking jokes. We can Debate whether obeck and van lente made the series too "angry" but at least they didn't turn our beloved band into parodies and caricatures.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I've considered it. The only copies I have electronic at the moment are pdfs, though. I was about to say that's not suitable for (direct) posting here, but I don't actually know.Also, I consider it to be in draft mode: I've been taking the versions I've done at work (which is up to page 14) and taking it home and redrawing it on graph paper at comic artboard size (I've got about 9 of those done), but it turns out graph paper shows up in scans far too well. I haven't inked yet. (I'll probably trace the inks onto plain paper.)I'd like to see it, when you've got it where you want it. Heck, I've posted stuff and it's not quite ready for comic artboard, yet. G/A-F...Yeah, but... (almost) all comic artists have that same restriction. Maybe that's part of why he's said he wasn't ready?True, and it kind of explains why so rarely there are gems of sequential storytelling when just getting the book out is the number one priority. Just a little more time probably would have made all the difference in the world...which is why I have always thought that 7 times a year is a good schedule to get a book off to the best start possible.I still think you're referring to the Fear Itself volume - when I say that, I only mean the one that sprang out of Fear Itself, the latest one, which you're describing. That's the volume where Heather shot her cousin.I'm sure it is volume 4, but I think of it as 5. Because my mind happens that way.~ Le Messor"Fear knocked at my door. Faith opened that door and no one was there."~ Author Unknown
I'm assuming that Garry is referring to the fear itself as volume 4, he is just refusing to address it as fear itself because he hates that arc so much he doesn't think it deserves to be known by its proper name. [I don't hate the arc; it makes no more sense than most anything else that's happened during ALPHA FLIGHT's long and tortured existence.] And as far as character assassinations go, the only two I think come anywhere near that charge are Vindicator and Sasquatch. barring the ending where he lets his brainwashed wife flee with his only child, Mac was as Mac as he'd always been. puck was Puck, Northstar and Aurora were on point, Marrina was tweaked a bit to be more punk rocker in attitude, but I didnt mind that. Now Vindicators I agree was particularly off. The implication throughout, seemed to be that Heather willingly turned her self over to the Master because she wanted Claire back so much, and that the brainwashing element of unity just turned her anger up to eleven. That means according to the writers Heather was willingly able to send Canada to its doom solely so she could save Claire.....from a stable and loving home. I don't care how much Heather was distraught over not getting Claire back, she would never have listened to the Master, ever.Now if they had Unbrainwashed her and had her have a Michael pointer moment where she relives the moment of killing her cousins and is in utter horror from what she did, I could see the damage done to her character lessened somewhat. But nope, we get a fake feel good moment with no mention of her cousins ever again. The only problem I had with Sasquatch was that out of nowhere near the end they gave him a duality crisis like the hulk. Now in the original Byrne run there was that battle for control between him and Tarnaq, but he never went hulk smash let alone actually say the phrase quatch smash.I can respect that. What volume 4 vividly portrayed is Vindicator (with Dept. H goons in tow, surrounding the house) bursting into the cousins' home, with the express intention of getting Claire back...and already had a report made up to indicate the cousins had weapons, which Mr. Eaglesham clearly illustrated they did not have. Moreover, when Vindicator gets back to HQ, she lets a Wendigo poke her daughter...this is not an example of good mothering, IMHO.What vol. 4 also vividly portrays is Mac/Guardian leading Judd, Aurora, and Snowbird on a bank-robbery. Bank surveillance picks up the events; Cody broadcasts the events...it clearly says so later in the story. Judd, Aurora, and Snowbird are direct accomplices to a felony (I'm assuming grand theft larceny is a felony in Canada), and there is no illustration or exposition that exonerates either Vindicator or Mac/Guardian from what they did.Because, if Cody was legally elected to be PM in AF's fictional world, than leading an armed revolt against Cody's UNITY regime---regardless of how overreaching and abusive it was---still constitutes sedition...which the whole team was instrumental in. Cody, presumably, died when the spacecraft leveled Parliament Hill, so who's left that knows/saw The Master outside of Mac, Heather, baby Claire and the member(s) of STRIKE TEAM ALPHA who just disappeared by the end of # 8?Lastly, in the footage of AF breaking out of the UNITY stronghold, it shows a brown Sasquatch...at the time when Walter couldn't transform into Sasquatch. Sure, Snowbird transforms into a Sasquatchy beast, but she goes albino/white when she transforms.

[Le Messor]

I'm less worried about the (616) public perception of the team than I am the things they actually did and why.
Running around robbing banks? Not heroic. Even if you're whacked-out on Scooby snacks.

Sedition? Revolution? Depends on who you're rebelling against. Just saying you want a revolution isn't bad in and of itself - we all want to change the world.
The book, however, didn't do enough for me to set up the evilness of the government. They kept saying 'Mind control! Mind control!' - after a while, I started asking: 'So? What's the mind control for?' because the mind control is the tool, not the ends. As much as I don't like the idea of it, they needed more than that to set up the evil. (There was a throwaway line in the final issue about taking over the galaxy; too little, too late.)

Heather's actions - mitigated by mind control. But the writer wasn't.

~ Le Messor
"Gandhi had a sign reading: When you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper; and when you are in the wrong, you cannot afford to lose it."
~ Chester Bowles

[Le Messor]

I'd like to see it, when you've got it where you want it. Heck, I've posted stuff and it's not quite ready for comic artboard, yet. G/A-F


I might just do that.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I'm less worried about the (616) public perception of the team than I am the things they actually did and why.Running around robbing banks? Not heroic. Even if you're whacked-out on Scooby snacks. :p I worry about all three: (1) the public perception of the team; (2) what they actually did, and; (3) why. Because I can't see (plausibly, anyhow) how even a comic-book high-level official could hold out either "Heather"/Vindicator or Mac/Guardian as the official, government-approved national super-hero. (1) Vindicator went into a residential neighborhood with a SWAT-team of armed goons---not to stun the legal-guardian-cousins and take Claire, that just wouldn't have been enough---but to kill them...and had a report with false statements by said goons already prepared. If a good lawyer can get Heather and her goon-squad off of something like this---even in a fictional world---then there's something far, far worse going on than a 40,000-year-old man trying to take over the world. [#4 ](2) Mac/Guardian rationalizes the bank-robbery with a monologue worthy of a super-villain, but doesn't provide proof of what the Unity regime is doing that would justify such a radical move. Moreover, Mac doesn't explain how stealing the money is going to stop Cody and his Unity regime [not THE MASTER and his Unity regime] when Cody is already seated as the PM and broadcasting things that substantiate his position.[#5 ]Here is why I don't hate the series: who but Alpha Flight's arch-nemesis could put them in a double-bind? Whether The Master's plan succeeds or fails, it's engineered to (1) take down "Heather" or Mac, or (2) take down "Heather" and Mac. Plus, taint the team and leave them without a leader. The Master takes out his own flunky (Cody)...presumably and unfortunately along with a whole lot of innocent people mixed in with the Unity regime. It's only after The Master has taken out Cody that Mac's forces strike. [#8 ] G/A-F Sedition? Revolution? Depends on who you're rebelling against. Just saying you want a revolution isn't bad in and of itself - we all want to change the world.Don't get me wrong. The Unity Regime needed to go, but...The book, however, didn't do enough for me to set up the evilness of the government. [...I agree, the series makes it seem that the people in the fictional Canada were mostly okay with what Cody was doing. And since most of the regular citizens weren't purple, I can't suspend disbelief that The Master could control enough of the nation to get Cody elected, simultaneously turn humans into 4-toed sycophants, build a spaceship under/in Parliament Hill, and control a Wendigo and a Ranark, all at the same time. The Master may be AF's arch-nemesis, but if he can do all of that....] They kept saying 'Mind control! Mind control!' ...Heather's actions - mitigated by mind control. But the writer wasn't.~ Le Messor"Gandhi had a sign reading: When you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper; and when you are in the wrong, you cannot afford to lose it."~ Chester BowlesMr. Surviving-fictional-Canadian-high-ranking official, in the aftermath of the alien spacecraft that leveled Parliament Hill, who are Canada's premier protectors? Vindicator? Guardian? Who will defend the Great White North if a Great Beast shows up? Snowbird? Sasquatch? Shaman? Who can we depend on if more Plodex/Skrulls/under-sea barbarians come back? Aurora? Northstar? Marrina?

[Yankee]

Well as the ending showed, it was clearly overtly by the second to last page, saying that guardian, Sasquatch, aurora, North Star, Puck, Marrina, Shaman, and Snowbird would be the sanctioned alpha flight, while vindicator went off to raise Claire on her own. Yes it was never said in a word balloon, but the full page spread of that team seemed to indicate that would be the case.

[Yankee]

I'll also be perfectly frank, I disagree with the limits your placing on the masters power, as I feel he does have that power to pull off, , particulalrly when you remember the immense fear the world was covered in from that asgardian serpent would have helped sway a fearful nation towards a fear monger like Gary Cody. I'd say more but a.) outside of the heather murdering her cousins and no remorse I have zero venom towards this series, so simply reading why others hate It is simply dissuading me from continuing to take part in this particular thread and b. I found out my essay is due five days earlier than when I initially thought so I can't procrastinate any longer!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Well as the ending showed, it was clearly overtly by the second to last page, saying that guardian, Sasquatch, aurora, North Star, Puck, Marrina, Shaman, and Snowbird would be the sanctioned alpha flight, while vindicator went off to raise Claire on her own. Yes it was never said in a word balloon, but the full page spread of that team seemed to indicate that would be the case.Even if what you say is true, what's the name used in Captain Marvel's new book? Even if what you say is true, were any members of the team formerly known as Alpha Flight exonerated, either by the Governor General or the new PM? Even if what you say is true, it isn't unreasonable to infer that what they did makes it difficult for an official to make an overt declaration that Guardian, Vindicator, Aurora, Northstar (!), Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird, Shaman, and Marrina are still Canada's sanctioned/premier super-heroes.
I'll also be perfectly frank, I disagree with the limits your placing on the masters power [you're entitled to your opinion. Have you started to figure out how many people it would take to get Cody elected, how much time it would take to complete the Unity process, how much energy and skill it would take to control a cannibal and a mystic who is an emissary of the Great Beasts, how many sycophants it takes to run the government and the internment camps, and how much raw material is needed to build a huge spaceship within/underneath Parliament Hill. I'm assuming (it takes) a lot (of time).], as I feel he does have that power to pull off, , particularly when you remember the immense fear the world was covered in from that asgardian serpent would have helped sway a fearful nation towards a fear monger like Gary Cody. I'd say more but a.) outside of the heather murdering her cousins and no remorse I have zero venom towards this series, so simply reading why others hate It is simply dissuading me from continuing to take part in this particular thread ["hate" is such a strong feeling and as I stated earlier---if you read it---I do not hate this arc. I reserve "hate" for something I truly and thoroughly despise, which is the Mantlo era. If you read the previews about the crossover in Amazing Heroes and Comics Feature and then read the Mantlo era, you may begin to see why I reserve such loathing for that period of Alpha Flight and no other] and b. I found out my essay is due five days earlier than when I initially thought so I can't procrastinate any longer!I'll miss ya.

[Phil]

Well as the ending showed, it was clearly overtly by the second to last page, saying that guardian, Sasquatch, aurora, North Star, Puck, Marrina, Shaman, and Snowbird would be the sanctioned alpha flight, while vindicator went off to raise Claire on her own. Yes it was never said in a word balloon, but the full page spread of that team seemed to indicate that would be the case.
I think that was more a metaphor and a traditional super-hero splash page than a direct nod to any sanctioning.

however...


Even if what you say is true, what's the name used in Captain Marvel's new book? Even if what you say is true, were any members of the team formerly known as Alpha Flight exonerated, either by the Governor General or the new PM? Even if what you say is true, it isn't unreasonable to infer that what they did makes it difficult for an official to make an overt declaration that Guardian, Vindicator, Aurora, Northstar (!), Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird, Shaman, and Marrina are still Canada's sanctioned/premier super-heroes.
They were back working for the Government in Red Hulk:Mayan Rule (which is set straight after Vol.4), and then in Amazing X-Men:World War Wendigo. Also, they were free to go to the US to attend Northstar & Kyle's wedding in between the above two storylines.
So chances are they were exonerated.

However however... On the other hand.... - the Government did restart Omega Flight and send them to deal with the Garden Origin Site infestation in Avengers, rather than Alpha Flight....

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I think that was more a metaphor and a traditional super-hero splash page than a direct nod to any sanctioning.
(me, too. G/A-F)
however...


They were back working for the Government in Red Hulk:Mayan Rule (which is set straight after Vol.4), and then in Amazing X-Men:World War Wendigo. Also, they were free to go to the US to attend Northstar & Kyle's wedding in between the above two storylines.

Chances are they were exonerated.

However... to play devil's advocate - the Government did restart Omega Flight and send them to deal with the Garden Origin Site infestation in Avengers, rather than Alpha Flight....

FULL DISCLOSURE: I do not have Red Hulk: Mayan Rule, Amazing X-Men: World War Wendigo, or Northstar & Kyle's wedding.
Even if I had the money, if Alpha Flight volume 4 couldn't bother to tell what happened to 1 Wendigo(, Ranark, and an adamantium terrorist), why should I think that there's going to be a resolution with a whole army of Wendigoes?

Whenever a new AF series comes out, there's a big frenzy to buy lots and lots of copies so it will sell well and be popular and give the characters lots of exposure and show MARVEL that AF has a solid group of supporters. And then, when the readers who actually care about the group cut back from buying umpteen copies of the same thing, the powers that be claim that the readership is dwindling, that AF doesn't have devoted supports, and the team isn't viable. I'm tired of playing that game.

[Phil]

if Alpha Flight volume 4 couldn't bother to tell what happened to 1 Wendigo(, Ranark, and an adamantium terrorist)
I'm genuinely interested as to why you think it's a case of they couldn't be bothered?
Life doesn't have perfect wrapped up stories, so why does fiction have to?
Not everything has to be explained and tied up in a bow; things take priority - especially when governed by profit/loss.
Especially in an ongoing comic universe where the story is never over.

I mentioned RH:MR and AX:WWW as these continued the story and actually answered your question as to government status.


Whenever a new AF series comes out, there's a big frenzy to buy lots and lots of copies so it will sell well and be popular and give the characters lots of exposure and show MARVEL that AF has a solid group of supporters.
There's only a frenzy if you choose there to be one.
Where your own money is concerned you should never be manipulated!


And then, when the readers who actually care about the group cut back from buying umpteen copies of the same thing, the powers that be claim that the readership is dwindling, that AF doesn't have devoted supports, and the team isn't viable. I'm tired of playing that game.
There's the problem then; people shouldn't buy more than one copy - that's clearly just creating a house of false statistics that inevitably comes tumbling down, proving Marvel right.
And that's fine, don't play the game - I fully, fully support your decision and completely agree with it; if you don't enjoy something, don't pay money for it.

However, just because you personally don't like something, it doesn't mean that it was bad.
Personally I think Volume 4 was far truer to Byrne than 2&3. And nowhere near 'demolishing' or 'character assassinating'

You say you'd 'rather come up with a storyline you know you'd like' - what's to say that anyone else would like it?
I'm sure Pak & Van Lente liked their storyline.

All this is very much off-topic though; I'm interested to see your vision of the team, and hopefully I will like it!

[Yankee]

I think that was more a metaphor and a traditional super-hero splash page than a direct nod to any sanctioning.

however...


They were back working for the Government in Red Hulk:Mayan Rule (which is set straight after Vol.4), and then in Amazing X-Men:World War Wendigo. Also, they were free to go to the US to attend Northstar & Kyle's wedding in between the above two storylines.
So chances are they were exonerated.

However however... On the other hand.... - the Government did restart Omega Flight and send them to deal with the Garden Origin Site infestation in Avengers, rather than Alpha Flight....
Which reminds me, I'm getting an edition of world war wendigo trade on loan from my schools library so il let you know what I think. And Garry, you say you don't hate it, then fine you don't hate it, I mispoke. but to be fair, that makes me utterly terrified to read your review of mantalo or something else that you actually hated. I don't nessecairly like mantalo (after hobnell he was the weakest of the volume 1 writers) and their are many decisions he made I utterly hated ( creating persuasion, making heather care more about her boy toy then she did the rest of the team post bedlam, the utter insanity of having the dreamqueen and sorceror arcs occur right after each other with no time to breathe etc) but their were storylines and arcs I did like (the pestilence arc (I know controversial opinion) the puck Tibet two parter, Revamping box from Bochs to Jefferies, etc) and I'd rather not get angry reading your opinions on those. As much as you don't hate volume 4, the way you wrote about came off to me as unfair in many places and I'm only going to assume that my perception won't change reading your opinion on something you legitimately hate. Your welcome to your opinions, I just will choose not to read them from here on in. Best of luck to you though.

[Phil]

As much as you don't hate volume 4, the way you wrote about came off to me as unfair in many places
Someone's personal opinions on a piece of fiction can never be unfair.
Garry has his views, and he's vocalizing them - he hasn't once tried to change anyone else's views.


I'm only going to assume that my perception won't change reading your opinion on something you legitimately hate.
Again; he's not trying to change your perception; he's giving his reasoning for his views.


Your welcome to your opinions, I just will choose not to read them from here on in. Best of luck to you though.
That strikes me as bizarre, personally.
Does reading Garry's personal opinions about fictional characters really vex you that much?
Would it not be boring if we all had exactly the same opinions?
Hell, I'd probably have about 7000 less posts...

Let's all embrace the fact that we actually share some common opinions!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I'm genuinely interested as to why you think it's a case of they couldn't be bothered?
Life doesn't have perfect wrapped up stories, so why does fiction have to?
[(a) good fiction should have a beginning, middle, and end because (2) fiction is not real life. Real life is real life.] Garry R. Jones
Not everything has to be explained [explaining/showing what happened to Wendigo, Citadel, Ranark, or Purple Woman when Squatch started choking the crap out of Northstar shouldn't be too much to ask] and tied up in a bow; [satisfying fiction should have a beginning, middle, and end because good fiction is satisfying fiction] ...
Especially in an ongoing comic universe where the story is never over.

I mentioned RH:MR and AX:WWW as these continued the story and actually answered your question as to government status. [and you can post a panel that will confirm this, I assume?]


There's only a frenzy if you choose there to be one. [?]
Where your own money is concerned you should never be manipulated! [?????????? I said I didn't want to play the profit-and-unviable game anymore; I don't think I said anything about being manipulated.]


There's the problem then; people shouldn't buy more than one copy - that's clearly just creating a house of false statistics that inevitably comes tumbling down, proving Marvel right. [BINGO!]
And that's fine, don't play the game - I fully, fully support your decision and completely agree with it; if you don't enjoy something, don't pay money for it.

However, just because you personally don't like something, it doesn't mean that it was bad. [You've jumped from something I "don't enjoy" inferring that it means it is something "bad". If I ever said/or wrote that volume 4 was bad, please point that out to me (so I can apologize). If I ever said volume 3 or 2 was bad, please point that out to me. If I ever said that Omega Flight mini-series was bad, please point that out to me. If I ever said that I didn't like volume 2, 3, 4 or the Omega Flight mini-series, please point that out to me.

What I have said/written and I mean to this day ---and make no apologies for---is I hate the Mantlo era. No inference needed.

Personally I think Volume 4 was far truer to Byrne than 2&3. And nowhere near 'demolishing' or 'character assassinating'

You say you'd 'rather come up with a storyline you know you'd like' - what's to say that anyone else would like it? [You imply that it has to be published, like what you're used to]
...
All this is very much off-topic though [not really]; I'm interested to see your vision of the team, and hopefully I will like it!

It amazes me that this is the longest response/reply you've ever sent me...IIRC.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Which reminds me, I'm getting an edition of world war wendigo trade on loan from my schools library so il let you know what I think. And Garry, you say you don't hate it, then fine you don't hate it, I mispoke. but to be fair, that makes me utterly terrified to read your review of mantalo (then don't read "ALPHA FLIGHT: The Super-Team That Never Took Off" published in Amazing Heroes # 117...written waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the '80s) or something else that you actually hated. I don't nessecairly like mantalo (after hobnell he was the weakest of the volume 1 writers) and their are many decisions he made I utterly hated ( creating persuasion, making heather care more about her boy toy then she did the rest of the team post bedlam, the utter insanity of having the dreamqueen and sorceror arcs occur right after each other with no time to breathe etc) but their were storylines and arcs I did like (the pestilence arc (I know controversial opinion) the puck Tibet two parter, Revamping box from Bochs to Jefferies, etc) and I'd rather not get angry reading your opinions on those. As much as you don't hate volume 4, the way you wrote about came off to me as unfair in many places and I'm only going to assume that my perception won't change reading your opinion on something you legitimately hate. Your welcome to your opinions, I just will choose not to read them from here on in. \\:D/ Best of luck to you though.

[I thought you had an over-due essay to write?]

[Yankee]

[I thought you had an over-due essay to write?] the essay isn't overdue it's just due five days earlier than when I thought it was, and I did my writing on it for the day

[Phil]

[(a) good fiction should have a beginning, middle, and end because (2) fiction is not real life. Real life is real life.] Garry R. Jones
But an ending is finite.
These are ongoing serial tales that aren't necessarily linear. The beauty of comics is flashbacks and filling in details, and also letting the reader fill in gaps themselves.


explaining/showing what happened to Wendigo, Citadel, Ranark, or Purple Woman when Squatch started choking the crap out of Northstar shouldn't be too much to ask
But are they major elements? Can the story continue without that information?
If you have to trim the fat for space reasons you need to find things that can be cut without affecting the story you're trying to tell.
These aren't essential plot elements therefore they're not always necessary. Especially if a reader can infer what happened later.


satisfying fiction should have a beginning, middle, and end because good fiction is satisfying fiction
It clearly had an end though.
It may have only been for the major players in the story, but it clearly had an end.
An end that satisfied some people.


and you can post a panel that will confirm this, I assume?
At a quick search; a panel from each suggesting they're working for the Government again:

5204 5203



?
I just think frenzy is a strange word to use. I can't fathom anything in comics being a frenzy, personally speaking.


?????????? I said I didn't want to play the profit-and-unviable game anymore; I don't think I said anything about being manipulated.
It was a general 'you' rather than Garry 'you' - apologies if that wasn't made clear.
It was just the way you said "there's a big frenzy to buy lots and lots of copies so it will sell well and be popular" which if it were the case, I would class as corporate manipulation - buy multiple copies of these characters else they go away for ever and you never see them ha ha ha ha ha etc.


You've jumped from something I "don't enjoy" inferring that it means it is something "bad". If I ever said/or wrote that volume 4 was bad,
please point that out to me (so I can apologize).
Again, I've misphrased that, so apologies - general community 'you'
Maybe I should have said "However, just because someone personally dislikes something, it doesn't mean that it was bad."
All in all; one man's gold is another man's excrement.


What I have said/written and I mean to this day ---and make no apologies for---is I hate the Mantlo era. No inference needed.
And I will support your right to that hate!


You imply that it has to be published, like what you're used to
It depends on your use of 'published'
Do you mean published as in professionally and for profit, or just published online for others to read?
I'm 100% for fan-fiction and there hasn't been any here in a long time.
If you meant that you'd rather write a storyline for yourself and for no-one but you to read then that's fair enough.


It amazes me that this is the longest response/reply you've ever sent me...IIRC.
I don't talk about Volume 1 a lot, to be honest.
I tend to talk about what's being published lately.
This is rooted in Volume 4 so it's relevant to my general conversing.

[Yankee]

I had written a post which I guess I inadvertendly deleted. My vexing with Garry wasn't that he held a different opinion but that he seemed to infer I was a moron for holding a different one. Ie when I said I disagreed with his points saying the master couldn't pull off that level of a coup, his response was to say " you are entitled to your opinion" And then realist all of his points again, ending on "I assume a lot," which seemingly implied that because I didn't agree with his long list of points, then I'm stupid.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...


But are they major elements? Well, for me, yes, when Squatch and Wendigo are in the middle of a fight. Can the story continue without that information? Yes, it can. And it did.
If you have to trim the fat for space reasons you need to find things that can be cut without affecting the story you're trying to tell. I can live with that.
These aren't essential plot elements therefore they're not always necessary. Especially if a reader can infer what happened later. But I infer that Ranark whisked Wendigo and Citadel away, to who knows where, and that's probably not what happened.



It clearly had an end though. It does.
It may have only been for the major players in the story, but it clearly had an end.
An end that satisfied some people. I stayed to the end. I don't stay to the end, if I don't care/care to know what happens.


At a quick search; a panel from each suggesting they're working for the Government again:

5204 5203


...

...

Thanks.

[Le Messor]

I just think frenzy is a strange word to use. I can't fathom anything in comics being a frenzy, personally speaking.

I think the frenzy Garry refers to (and maybe 'push' would be a better word?) is that whenever a new AF (or, in one case, OF) book is announced, there is a big thing on this very list! where a bunch of us tell everybody to buy multiple copies, for the reasons Garry outlines.

~ Le Messor
"God whispers in our pleasures but shouts in our pain. Pain is His megaphone to rouse a dulled world."
~ C.S. Lewis

[Yankee]

Just curious, do you have a set list of quotes you rotate through, or do you try and come up with a brand new one for each time you post?

[Le Messor]

I keep them in a big document. :)

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Someone's personal opinions on a piece of fiction can never be unfair.
Garry has his views, and he's vocalizing them - he hasn't once tried to change anyone else's views.


Again; he's not trying to change your perception; he's giving his reasoning for his views.

Being the ultra-super-persuader-to-one-opinion I'll leave to someone else. G/A-F


That strikes me as bizarre, personally.
Does reading Garry's personal opinions about fictional characters really vex you that much? For someone so vexed, the comments keep on coming.
Would it not be boring if we all had exactly the same opinions?
...
Let's all embrace the fact that we actually share some common opinions!



I think the frenzy Garry refers to (and maybe 'push' would be a better word?) is that whenever a new AF (or, in one case, OF) book is announced, there is a big thing on this very list! where a bunch of us tell everybody to buy multiple copies, for the reasons Garry outlines. 'Push' is a better word.

~ Le Messor
"God whispers in our pleasures but shouts in our pain. Pain is His megaphone to rouse a dulled world."
~ C.S. Lewis

I'm ready to move on from volume 4, as I believe was suggested not too long ago.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Riffed...and extremely disgruntled.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Back again.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Original Alpha Flight - lettering

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...Pestilence.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Rough draft of a retro cover.

[Phil]

Really like that angle/perspective.

[Le Messor]

That is cool - but is it a version of a classic Hulk cover? If so, I don't recognise it.
(Though it does look kind of like they're trapped in the Phantom Zone.)

~ Le Messor
"If I had only know, I would have been a locksmith."
~ Albert Einstein

[Phil]

I was guessing it was a reinterpretation of #29.

[Le Messor]

Probably; I'm still wondering if it's homaging a specific cover, though.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

It's a little bit homage, a little bit non-Mantloverse. The Incredible Hulk #313 defines the Crossroads as a conjunction of many different realities. The Alpha Flight from AF# 29 on (IMO) belongs to the Mantloverse. Volume 4 in particular ties itself to that particular version of Alpha Flight.

BTW, bureaucracy was Mac's biggest enemy, just as "continuity" is Alpha Flight's.

[Le Messor]

Thanks, Garry!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Don't know if this character is still viable, yet...

[Garry/Al-Fan]

volume 4 reference

[Le Messor]

That's some great work there, Garry!

~ Le Messor
"The man who has no imagination has no wings."
~ Muhammad Ali

[Garry/Al-Fan]

ah, well, it should've been titled "ETERNITY"...but had INFINITY on my mind. Don't really know what MARVEL's doing with either of them, really.

[Le Messor]

LoL! I missed the mistake. :)

~ Le Messor
"Every advantage has its tax."
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Right-side up, this is what I envision the page to look like, a little closer to finished.

[Le Messor]

Interesting that you used their civilian names in describing their role as heroes. Also, no Heather?

~ Le Messor
"Do not be in a hurry to tie what you cannot untie."
~ English proverb

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Civilian names first because they are people as well as heroes. Way back when, they were portrayed as both. Jeanne-Marie Beaubier (the original character) really needs to be differentiated from Jeanne-Marie Baptiste (from ALPHA FLIGHT # 50).

As for the hero-names, it's a bit of dilemma. "Aurora"---I found out much, much later in life---is also the name of the Goddess of Dawn. I'm hoping that some sort of positive connection between the two can be established, because Aurora-the-comic-book-character has been put through the ringer.

I have a personal favorite code-name for Mac. It isn't "Guardian", "Vindicator", or "Anti-Guard".

There are at least three Marrina-type characters, I think: the three alluded to during the Hudnall run, and/or "Marr" (vol. 3)/"Marrina" (vol.4)/"Original Marrina" coming out of wherever (Chaos War: Alpha Flight/Chaos War # 5).

Heather, as portrayed in volume 4---well, the whole team, for that matter---has a very shaky claim to being a hero. Phil probably won't agree with that, but what else is new? But that's only a small part of why. First, (as I envision it) there are only nine slots allocated for a government-sanctioned team. Plot-wise, there are ten core members (in which Heather is included), but only nine can come back. Lastly, and most importantly, I like the 3 x 3/9-panel grid.

[Le Messor]

Oh, I get that they're people as well as heroes - I love it when they're portrayed that way - I just would've used their hero names when calling them heroes.

Aurora has gone on to become a general (poetic) word for 'dawn'. She presumably has it because of her light powers, and Aurora Boreanaz.

~ Le Messor
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
~ Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Good morning (at least it's morning here as I write this), Mik.

You know this too, but "Alpha Flight" now is not what Alpha Flight used to be. I don't even know if using the term "Alpha Flight" for a Canadian-sanctioned team is viable anymore; I don't know what MARVEL's position is on that.

I don't know who Aurora Boreanaz is (but I will google the name very, very soon), and I don't know much about poetry. I do know that the members of Alpha Flight don't have too many people they can really, really count on in a pinch (Wolverine and The X-MEN, aside), and they could use a few people in their corner.

IIRC, the old pantheons were being decimated by The Chaos King (during the Chaos War, of which I only have issue CW# 5 and CW: Alpha Flight one-shot...which BTW is holding up better and better as time goes by). In my opinion, some of the lesser-known characters from the pantheons MARVEL has already established/tapped into could provide some new direction(s) for an Alpha Flight comeback. It might be called Alpha Strike (a nod to volume 4) or (my personal favorite STRIKE FORCE ALPHA), if Alpha Flight doesn't fit in with what MARVEL is doing, presently.

I really don't know what MARVEL is going to do, but it seems they have already found the people they want to handle Sasquatch and a few other characters from the old Alpha Flight.

If I could get 1 page that's production-quality/production-ready, I will be happy.

[Le Messor]

I don't know what MARVEL's position is on that
Hard to say; the two-panel appearance of Puck in Squirrel Girl and (apparently) the upcoming Sasquatch appearances in Hulk ignore their characterisation in Captain Marvel, so maybe there's no position.
I do agree that they aren't what they were, though. Absolutely.


I don't know who Aurora Boreanaz is
Bad pun. I was going for an Aurora Borealis / David Boreanaz mix for some reason, and I didn't even get it when I re-read it just now.


If I could get 1 page that's production-quality/production-ready, I will be happy.
Well, you seem to be using official-style artboards, and you're better than some professional artists out there.

~ Le Messor
"No two people on Earth are alike, and it's got to be that way in music, or it isn't music."
~ Billie Holiday

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Thanks. I'm starting to transfer some of my ideas to artboard: working on pacing and composition and spacing, plus plot-story-characterization. It gives me a greater appreciation for the skill and dedication of the writers and artists and inkers and letterers and editors, especially the ones who had to work on a twice-a-month deadline.

[Le Messor]

You're right; I've been doing my own comic (not Alpha-related), and it's a lot harder than people might expect.

OTOH, you're doing it all yourself; the professionals usually have one person per job.

~ Le Messor
"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."
~ Alexander Hamilton

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Yeah, I know. Dividing up the responsibilities would be professional and probably better---much better---but that hasn't always been the case, even with the top premiere comic book publishers. Besides, this is my hobby. That's about as far as it's going to go. (I didn't get to touch on perspective and backgrounds and locations because if I can just do the things I mentioned previously well, maybe I can keep on going).

And, I kinda figured you were working on something.

[Le Messor]

Better? I never said that!
I said what to put this: "It gives me a greater appreciation for the skill and dedication of the writers and artists and inkers and letterers and editors, especially the ones who had to work on a twice-a-month deadline." into perspective. They may have a twice-a-month deadline, but you're doing the work of five people!

~ Le Messor
"Creative minds have always been known to survive any kind of bad training."
~ Anna Freud

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Oh.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

When I went to AWESOME-CON on Saturday, March 31st, I met Neal Adams. Big thrill for me. I told him I was having some trouble getting my story to say what I want it to say and do what I want it to do. He asked me if I was working from a script; I told him it was more of a synopsis. He told me it would be better if I worked from a script.

Therefore, back to the beginning, starting with this....

[Le Messor]

I've got Neal Adams' autograph, but never met him. (Long story: bought a signed edition. Okay, not that long.)

When I decided to do a comic, I started off impro, but then I went to a script. There's an old (debate?) among writers - planners vs improvisers. The actual answer is, whatever works for you. In your case, though, changing your style might solve a problem.

Also, your new page isn't showing.

~ Le Messor
"An essential attribute of a good conversationalist is to be an equally good listener."
~ Errol White

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Had a bit of a problem with the computer where I was at, the last time. I wanted to have a MARVEL IDEA SUBMISSION FORM signed and notarized, but it didn't happen, yesterday (April 30th).

[Le Messor]

You need a submission form notatrised? That's surprising.

(Also, I assume you've looked into this: you've put a © on your submission; don't they already have their own © for it?)
I like that you back up your pitch with stats; but do you need a little more of the actual meat of the issue? Plot outline, more pictures than headshots?

I hope this goes well. I'd love to see a new series created by one of us! :)

~ Le Messor
"Good, better, best, never let it rest, till you good is better and your better, best."
~ David Rees

[Phil]

Not to be a downer, but I’m pretty sure Marvel don’t accept unsolicited submissions, and you have to be invited to pitch.

And in this market a oneshot of that size is unlikely, with a gatefold cover even moreso, and no variants *sigh* even moreso.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Le Messor - on the MARVEL IDEA SUBMISSION FORM, "5. You warrant that you are the sole owner, creator, inventor and author of the Material, that you have the full right and authorization to submit the Material and that no other person or entity, unless disclosed to Marvel by you in writing, has or shall have any right, title or interest in or to the Material." The FORM stipulates a whole lot more, but the year is usually where I put the copyright mark.

Phil - And that's why ALPHA FLIGHT will probably not do anything other than what it's been doing in Captain Marvel.

[Le Messor]

Okay, that follows then. :)

The Immortal Hulk is looking good for our heroes. (Well, Walter at least - and the writer knows he is Walter, not just a Sasquatch.)

~ Le Messor
"One who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; one who does not ask a question remains a fool forever."
~ Chinese proverb

[Phil]

Phil - And that's why ALPHA FLIGHT will probably not do anything other than what it's been doing in Captain Marvel.

I think it'll take a 'superstar' writer/artist team wanting the book to make them more.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

So let me get this straight: you run down a comic book format that: (1) isn't currently being overused; (2) would make ALPHA FLIGHT stand out from the 300+ other comic books [and their space-taking variant covers], and; (3) have enough room to adequately tell a story with at least 10 main characters.

This is what I found out on FREE COMIC BOOK DAY: Captain America # 1 is going to have a wraparound cover (by ALEX ROSS, no less). Please confirm the page count for that issue. The DIAMOND DISTRIBUTORS PREVIEW catalog has a double-gatefold cover, plus an order form that can be detached with ease. IMMORTAL MEN # 1 and BRIMSTONE # 1 have super-gatefold covers that a(re) part (of) a poster. It's very easy to tear something down, but it's a lot harder to build something up. The question with regards to ALPHA FLIGHT is: which one is MARVEL doing?This last question I ask solely because I don't know the answer to it: Phil, do you work for MARVEL?

[Le Messor]

Garry, I don't think Phil is running the idea down; I think he's just trying to keep your expectations realistic.

Especially since, as you say, Marvel is tearing Alpha down lately - so they're less likely to print the book.

Go ahead and submit this, but know that they aren't likely to say yes.

~ Le Messor
"There is no security on this earth; there is only opportunity."
~ General Douglas MacArthur

[Phil]

Not sure where giving my personal opinion and constructive criticism became a personal attack, but hey ho.


So let me get this straight: you run down a comic book format that: (1) isn't currently being overused; (2) would make ALPHA FLIGHT stand out from the 300+ other comic books [and their space-taking variant covers], and; (3) have enough room to adequately tell a story with at least 10 main characters.
I merely stated that in this market it's unlikely; if it were a viable, profitable (being the key word) option then Marvel would already be doing it regularly.


Captain America # 1 is going to have a wraparound cover (by ALEX ROSS, no less). Please confirm the page count for that issue.
That strengthens my point.
If Captain America, arguably one of Marvel's biggest characters, especially off the back of the biggest film opening of all-time, and written by a NYTimes best-selling author, can only get a single wraparound cover, and a 40 page (including adverts) #1 (https://www.newsarama.com/39545-marvel-comics-july-2018-solicitations.html) with 7 variants (Plus store exclusives) at $4.99 then there is NO chance AF will get a gatefold wraparound cover, no variant covers and 40 pages for $3.99.
The extra pages for the gatefold and the extra pages for the issue would raise the price dramatically.
Artists can't be expected to work for free.
Printing presses can't be expected to work for free.
The extra distribution for the extra weight isn't free.

Marvel is a business.


The DIAMOND DISTRIBUTORS PREVIEW catalog has a double-gatefold cover, plus an order form that can be detached with ease.
Which are mostly text, or reproduced images, at no extra cost to artists.


IMMORTAL MEN # 1 and BRIMSTONE # 1 have super-gatefold covers that a part a poster.
And I'd be VERY interested to see the budget and sales figures GDP for those.

The last time Marvel had a gatefold wraparound cover it was for the $4.99 40 page (including adverts) Age of Apocalypse #1 in July 2015 (http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2015/2015-07.html) as one of 5 variant covers (and using connecting artwork for the #1-5 standard covers meaning no extra cost to artists).
This sold 88,346 copies.
This was not a success. (Although too, not a failure, and I know your estimated numbers are way lower)

A book selling 17,164 is a failure, and will barely cover the costs.


Garry, I don't think Phil is running the idea down; I think he's just trying to keep your expectations realistic.
Exactly this.
I love your enthusiasm, I love that you want to do something about the team, and are actively looking into it; I just don't want you to be shot down in flames, if at all replied to.


Go ahead and submit this, but know that they aren't likely to say yes.
The problem with this, is that Marvel legally CANNOT AND WILL NOT accept blind submissions, especially of their own characters (https://marvel.com/help/category/17/topic/30) and will destroy any un-opened, unless invited to pitch.

You warrant that you are the sole owner, creator, inventor and author of the Material, that you have the full right and authorization to submit the Material and that no other person or entity, unless disclosed to Marvel by you in writing, has or shall have any right, title or interest in or to the Material." The FORM stipulates a whole lot more, but the year is usually where I put the copyright mark.
You don't own Alpha Flight. Not even John Byrne owns Alpha Flight, which means you don't have the right to any of these characters so can't submit anything relating to them.

I'd be very interested to see this form/find out where you got it - is it current?


This last question I ask solely because I don't know the answer to it: Phil, do you work for MARVEL?
I do not, and haven't claimed to.

I have, however worked in comics retail and still have friends/contacts that are retailers so I know somewhat about ordering and cut offs, and the perils that LCS owners face, with regards to the pros/cons of variants especially.

I also have close friends that have worked in the publishing divisions of big, but non-big-two, Diamond Premier Publishers, and others who have top 50 Image Books and we talk about this stuff all the time.

I'm not just spitballing to be an @$$.

I cannot fix Alpha Flight, but I'm not trying to. At least you're trying - and I respect that.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Why would a big-name author risk his (or her) reputation writing an on-going series that is most likely going to be cancelled or rebooted within a year? Is there any proof or evidence that a big-name author is guaranteed to bring in a successful number of books sold, whether that is 100,000 or 200,000 or higher?

I would be more inclined to submit the ALPHA FLIGHT proposal if: (1) MARVEL asks me to; (2) MARVEL asks Diana Schutz, retired DARK HORSE editor, to be the editor of this special project, and (3) Mik would consider coloring the issue...if he hasn't already assembled his own creative team.

[Phil]

Why would a big-name author risk his (or her) reputation writing an on-going series that is most likely going to be cancelled or rebooted within a year?
Out of love for the book/team/title, hence my original "'superstar' writer/artist team wanting the book"


Is there any proof or evidence that a big-name author is guaranteed to bring in a successful number of books sold, whether that is 100,000 or 200,000 or higher?
There's never guarantees, ever. And all I said was "more" than bit-parts in Captain Marvel; I never said a success.

But looking at how Snyder turned Batman back into a best seller, Bendis disassembling the Avengers, anything Neil Gaiman does, Jim Lee draws etc - power in Comics today is leaning towards the creator;people are starting to follow creators from book to book rather than characters.

If Byrne came back to any Big Two book now, the numbers would probably be high, even if just for the first issue.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Exactly.

[Phil]

Not sure which part you’re referring to, but also not sure how it makes your original submission point.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Maybe because you are reading too much into things that aren't there? MARVEL owns a lot of stuff; I know they own ALPHA FLIGHT. That's not really what I was talking about. If I can get the MARVEL IDEA SUBMISSION FORM, you can get it. It may even be more current than 2005.

I was going to say that Phil seems to know a lot about what is successful and profitable and popular in the comic book industry. You didn't give me a chance to.

[Le Messor]

Mik would consider coloring the issue...if he hasn't already assembled his own creative team.

Thanks. :oops: That's probably my weakest link with art, though, (though I'm obviously highly opinionated!) and I'm not sure I could keep up with the colourists of today. :)

~ Le Messor
"The trouble with having a fertile mind is that the weeds grow as prolific as the pastures."
~ P.K. Shaw

[Phil]

Maybe because you are reading too much into things that aren't there?
I was directly responding/replying to statements you had made/questions you had asked, so I can't see that.


If I can get the MARVEL IDEA SUBMISSION FORM, you can get it. It may even be more current than 2005.
If you're talking about the Epic Comics imprint one, they don't still use those, and don't accept submissions now.


I was going to say that Phil seems to know a lot about what is successful and profitable and popular in the comic book industry. You didn't give me a chance to.
Again, slightly confused as you led the discussion, but I appreciate the compliment.

If I have misinterpreted anything you've said then I apologise.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

"I was directly responding/replying to statements you had made/questions you had asked, so I can't see that." I still don't know if you work for MARVEL or not (the simplest question I believe was asked).

I didn't get the MARVEL IDEA SUBMISSION FORM from EPIC. As you say, comics is a business, not entertainment. If you really want it, you will make it your business to find it. If MARVEL isn't using it any more, they should tell you. If they have a more current version than 2005, they should tell you.

Loading replies with so many points/arguments has made clarity and understanding nearly impossible.

[Phil]

I still don't know if you work for MARVEL or not (the simplest question I believe was asked).

I'm pretty sure my answer on the page before was:

I do not, and haven't claimed to.
Apologies if this wasn't clear or simple enough.


If you really want it, you will make it your business to find it.
Personally, I disagree with that. To me that's like saying If I really want something I'll steal it. Marvel do not produce Submission forms any more. Ergo, finding an old one is fraudulant.


If MARVEL isn't using it any more, they should tell you.
And they have:

Marvel legally CANNOT AND WILL NOT accept blind submissions, especially of their own characters (https://marvel.com/help/category/17/topic/30)

[Phil]

Anyway, I feel like this has gone off the rails completely.

I genuinely apologise because that's not my intention; I genuinely enjoy the work you've been putting into this and have liked reading your pages,and would love to see more and the final product.

I just don't want you to go to a lot of trouble submitting unrealistically.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Busy. Please try again later.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Setting aside the baseless assertion about fraud (which, BTW, is done in a rather public forum), the more important question is: with so many comic books that actually exist, why are you at all concerned about one that doesn't? As you have stated (2 times, now) that you do not work for MARVEL, if I were to submit something---solicited or unsolicited, it would go to MARVEL. You would not know about it because you do not work for MARVEL. As you have warned (in red letters, too) that MARVEL doesn't accept unsolicited submissions, if I were to send in something anyway and MARVEL tossed it in the round file/shredded it/gave it to LOCKJAW for potty-training, you would not see because you do not work for MARVEL (and in the "LOCKJAW outcome", you probably wouldn't want to see it). And, if by some bizarro off-chance MARVEL gets a submission and says "Let's do this", it would take months before an actual comic book could be produced.

Only one person is derailing this thread, and it isn't me.

[Le Messor]

Again, Garry, I don't think Phil is concerned, just trying to manage expectations.
(Though I do think 'fraudulent' may not have been the best choice of words.)

He's not telling you not to submit, just warning you it might not go anywhere.

[rplass]

If I worked for Marvel I would green-light your submission idea and I think it would work. Nice job on focusing the content on what fans want! It's out of the box and hopefully the comic book industry can have the courage to try something unconventional. :)

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Thanks, but I wonder if MARVEL has any plans to commemorate the 40th anniversary of ALPHA FLIGHT's 1st appearance?

What if some of the biggest-name superstars---past and present---were interested in contributing?

That would something.

[Le Messor]

That would be great!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Here's my wish list of illustrators worth the price of admission (IMO):1) Richard Corben*; 2) Rafa Sandoval; 3) Leanne Huynh; 4) Jim Sherman; 5) Greg Titus; 6) Chris Bachalo; 7) Jim Calafiore; 8 ) Clayton Henry; 9) Terry Shoemaker; 10) Walter Simonson; 11) Art Adams; 12) Neal Adams*; 13) John Byrne; 14) Tom Grummett, and; 15) Adam Warren.


* Unfortunately, no longer with us. (as of 7/5/2023)

[Garry/Al-Fan]

The INCREDIBLE ALPHA FLIGHT/page layout 2


Page 14 - SNOWBIRD (Narya), “travel(ling) between dimensions.” (words of JIM McCANN from CHAOS WAR: ALPHA FLIGHT)

Page 15 - “The government is in turmoil____” meeting.

Page 16 - LAWTON (re-envisioned)

Page 17 - DANNON, Lawton’s political foil

Page 18 - Others at the meeting express their concerns regarding the issues facing the nation.

Page 19 - GENERAL BRIAN WINSLOW explains the non-conventional threats to national security; the interim PRIME MINISTER reluctantly agrees that meta-human threats should be countered with meta-human deterrence.

Page 20 - The NEXUS of ALL REALITIES (aka THE CROSSROADS), as seen from Roger’s laboratory.

Page 21 - Northstar talks with Aurora about her injury (“three cracked ribs” sustained in AF# 26)…

Page 22 - …and gets into a brief argument with LANGKOWSKI/BOX until ROGER homes in on their intended target.

Page 23 - Judd, dazed, starts to remember bits-and-pieces of what’s going on; ROGER and WALTER/BOX get seriously focused on securing the target.

Page 24 - Meanwhile, HEATHER records her thoughts as she tries to relax; a power-surge plunges the entire room into complete darkness.

Page 25 - Mephisto watching ALPHA FLIGHT with interest…and malice.

[Le Messor]

This is all building to something!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

That page is the "meat-and-potatoes" part of the story because it should spell out why a meta-human deterrence like ALPHA FLIGHT is needed against non-conventional threats such as: RANARK (circa MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE); WENDIGO (a super-strong cannibal); The Super-Skrull (I believe Walter would've told his teammates about this); original OMEGA FLIGHT; AIM; HYDRA; and, of course, THE MASTER and THE GREAT BEASTS.

Not everybody at that meeting is going to be for ALPHA FLIGHT, though (*cough* LAWTON *cough*).

That's as much as I can say.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I put the layouts together to see how long it would run. A veteran illustrator would probably pace it/lay it out differently, maybe less pages. Anyhow, the mock-proof of the double-gate fold cover is just about what I hoped it would be.

It's not ready to be a comic book...yet.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

If "The New Age of Heroes" is the Distinguished Competition cribbing MARVEL's characters/MARVEL's style/MARVEL's intellectual property, than this is indeed a new age of heroes.

Beyond a shadowy cabal chasing someone/something, there isn't much of a concept for The Immortal Men, The New Challengers, and The Unexpected. While issue # 1 of The Immortal Men was intriguing, the thin plot and less-than-impressive characters quickly peter out in issue # 2. Immortal Men who are easily killed off en mass and who are really capable of saving anybody are not awesome, heroic, or entertaining.

The New Challengers at least realized that its concept and plot are best suited for a mini-series, and truth be told, it would have been a very good one if the 1st issue was told in a more coherent, straightforward manner. Trina is interesting, and could have started the book with her or the big guy, who doesn't get a chance to shine until issue # 3. And it's probably best that this is a mini-series because V Ken Marion is no Andy Kubert.

In The Unexpected, the character NEON is neither heroic, effective or interesting. There really is no reason for this book to exist because it isn't much different than The Immortal Men, NEON is pathetically ineffective at dealing with the bad-guys, and the bad-guys seem like more than a match for NEON.

The good news: the two New Age of Heroes books that are interesting and well-executed are the two that I initially didn't expect much from (initially) - The Terrifics and The Silencer.

The bad news: I stopped reading Curse of Brimstone in the middle of # 1 and have no interest or reason to finish reading it. As for Damage and Sideways (which I don't have), if I want to read the Hulk or Spiderman, I'll buy the Hulk or Spiderman. The on-line articles "BETWEEN THE PANELS: THE NEW AGE OF DC HEROES IS FAILING" by Jesse Schedeen and "Is DC's New Age of Heroes just Marvel trolling?" on Reddit go into detail with the comparisons between the Distinguished Competition's characters and MARVEL's.

If The New Age of Heroes is saying that it can do MARVEL characters better than MARVEL itself (and in a rather in-your-face manner), the proof isn't in the pudding of what I've read (except for The Terrifics). With the Warner Brothers characters, the Charleton characters, plus their own extensive catalog of characters, the Distinguished Competition may have bitten off more than it can chew.

[Le Messor]

That sounds like pretty much what I expected from The Immortal Men, The New Challengers, and The Unexpected.

~ Le Messor
"The best thing about the future is that it only comes one day at a time."
~ Abraham Lincoln

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I sure hope the "edit" function can be restored so I can correct "en masse", correct "Charlton" (that must have been where the 'e' went), fix the sentence "...who are not capable of saving anybody..."/"who are incapable of saving anybody...", and add Joe Bennett to the "wish list."

Immortal Hulk # 4 is good. Real good.

[Phil]

Glad you liked IH4 Garry!

Any thoughts on where #5 will go?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I read the review on Bleeding Cool where the reviewer thinks that IH4 is the weakest issue of the new series. Although I've only gotten IH2 and IH3 (as a result of reading IH4), I'm not sure how anyone could jump to that conclusion so early in a series.

Not only does IH4 feature a guest-star who has a connection to Bruce Banner that is drawing them both toward each other, Walter is a man who is trying to convince himself as well as reporter Jacqueline McGee that TANARAQ is dead. The panel shows Walter doesn't quite believe it and something is very wrong.

Personally, I rate this comic book a solid 9 out of 10; I don't know if it can get much better than this, but I look forward to IH5 to find out.

[Phil]

Yeah, I reckon it’s just because it had no actual Hulk in the issue.

[-K-M-]

Meh! And I have read a bunch of other reviews that say it’s the best issue so far

[Le Messor]

Well, I can understand if you're looking for Hulk in a Hulk comic and don't find one, you could be a little disappointed.

Me, I'd be looking for Sasquatch, so I probably wouldn't be. :)

~ Le Messor
"At some point there are going to be dinosaurs on this dinosaur tour, aren't there?"
~ Ian Malcom

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Meh! And I have read a bunch of other reviews that say it’s the best issue so far

I'd like to read the positive reviews, if you'd share where they are.

I actually think IH4 is as much about Bruce/Hulk as it is about Walt/Sasquatch/Tanaraq. This is the most effective use of a guest star I've seen since...ever.

[-K-M-]

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/2018/08/01/the-immortal-hulk-4-review/

https://comicsverse.com/immortal-hulk-4-review/

https://leagueofcomicgeeks.com/comic/5900324/the-immortal-hulk-4

http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?291-Incredible-Hulk-Appreciation-quot-HULK-SMASH!-quot/page180

https://comicbookroundup.com/comic-books/reviews/marvel-comics/immortal-hulk/4

https://sequentialplanet.com/comic-review-immortal-hulk-4/

https://www.google.ca/amp/blacknerdproblems.com/the-immortal-hulk-4-review/amp/

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Thanks, -K-M-. These reviews more accurately appreciate what is happening in IMMORTAL HULK# 4. My only quibble (besides the misspelling "Langowski" instead of "Langkowski" in the COMIC(S)VERSE review) is that it is assumed to be a prelude to a HULK-SASQUATCH fight. I don't think that's SASQUATCH.

[-K-M-]

Neither do I. Might be Tanaraq or something connected to the Green Door. Only a few more weeks :)

[Phil]

Garry - Have you read Old Man Logan #46 at all?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Yes, I did. But I thought it would be better to wait awhile to post my opinion on it because (1) it's just the first part of the story and (2) there are a few troubling things in it.First and foremost, the character interaction between OML and Snowbird, Puck, and Shaman is a welcome treat. But Mac's "strategy" is really, really questionable: in the church were the towns-people are dead and the whole group knows they are dead, Shaman tells them his Earth-magic won't work against the alien---and deadly---plant-thing. In other words, he is defenseless and offensiveless. So what does Mac do? He has Shaman and Snowbird stay where the core of the alien is and splits the team up...while he goes to the ship with a piece of the malevolent alien plant-thing...without his force-shield to protect himself. One of the survivors holed up for 30 days summed it up best: "I hope you folks got an alternate plan..." because plan A doesn't look like its going to save anybody.Unless there is a backup team capable of dealing with creatures from space at the ready...I don't look forward to OML# 48 like I look forward to IMMORTAL HULK# 5 because Alpha Flight has gone down the horror road before and it didn't end up good for them (or the readers). However, while OML# 46 is not quite as good as IH4, it's not nearly as bad as The Unexpected and The Immortal Men.

[Le Messor]

it's not nearly as bad as The Unexpected and The Immortal Men.

I don't know what those mean, especially in relation to Alpha Flight? (Are they bad things that have nothing to do with our favourite team?)

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Back in the day, four things I felt made a good comic book were (1) a solid conceptual foundation, (2) strong characterizations, (3) logical/consistent motivation, and (4) editing that helped make a story better, not worse. OML# 46 has a solid conceptual foundation: Logan and Alpha Flight are friends, and they're investigating something extraordinary. I really couldn't tell you what the concept behind The Immortal Men and The Unexpected is. Chasing somebody?OML# 46 has some good characterization, but Snowbird, Shaman, and Puck don't have any second thoughts about Mac's plan? Shaman concludes his magic won't work without even trying to find out (Shaman's magic worked well in the GREATBEASTS' dimension in ALPHA FLIGHT #24)? I couldn't tell you what the main characters are capable of after 3 issues of The Immortal Men and 2 issues of The Unexpected, even though they are supposedly heroes according to the front covers.Overall, OML# 46 suffers from "horror movie logic" where characters make inane decisions that make matters worse. At least there is a possibility that the second part of the story turns out better; there is no way Immortal Men (already said to be cancelled) and The Unexpected can be salvaged.

[Le Messor]

Are The Immortal Men and The Unexpected comic book serieses?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Yes, but just barely. They lack all four of the things that actually make up real comic books.

[Le Messor]

Okay, thanks. :)

[Garry/Al-Fan]

If there are no other plans for Alpha Flight for Marvel's 80th anniversary, maybe Marvel will consider an ALPHA FLIGHT blank book (like DC comics' recent Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman blank Comics) so AF fans can create their own AF story.

Preferably with the original volume 1 logo.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

A 5-page story in the new anthology MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS would be a good way to reintroduce the original members of ALPHA FLIGHT without the risk of launching a series that may not have the audience to support it.

[Phil]

There could be the possibility for an 80's or 90's AF story, so in issues 5 or 6.
Not sure there will be the focus though as I imagine, pessimistically knowing Marvel, that other characters will be more prominent in those decades.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

From the solicitation for Immortal Hulk featuring Judd, Alpha Flight/Gamma Flight looks to be in good hands.

[Le Messor]

There could be the possibility for an 80's or 90's AF story, so in issues 5 or 6.

Is that how this series is running? A through-the-ages kind o' fing?

~ Le Messor
"The list of New Year Resolutions you made last year can be used again.
It's as good as new."
~ W.G.P.

[Phil]

Yah, #1 starts with 1940.
1-6 have been confirmed.

[Le Messor]

That's pretty cool. :)

[Garry/Al-Fan]

ALPHA FLIGHT: DISCLAIMER would be my unsolicited submission.

[Phil]

I like the idea of Mephisto as their villain.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I hope MARVEL gives long-time Alpha Flight fans more than just a reprint of ALPHA FLIGHT# 1.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

DreamQueen (returns)

[-K-M-]

I love that

big fan of the character and wish she was used more

[Le Messor]

I love the way you counterpoint this with the opening of Alpha Flight #1.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Thanks. And Alpha Flight (volume 1) # 13 is titled "NIGHTMARE!".

[Le Messor]

Of course! I should've seen that. :)

~ Le Messor
"If you're looking for friends when you need them… it's too late."
~ Mark Twain

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I was going to post something MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE-themed, but it wouldn't let me download the artwork.

[Le Messor]

Apologies, there have been ongoing issues. Did you try both pasting it directly into your comment and using the 'add artwork' button?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I didn't try that. Back home, now; don't know when
I'll get back to the library to try.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

If given the opportunity to write a story featuring Alpha Flight, I will do my best to be a good steward of MARVEL's characters.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Before Sunday, July 28th, 2019, I had hoped that MARVEL comics would let DC comics be the comic book company to publish zombie-fied versions of their most popular characters. Let DC comics revel in the vile degradation of what a superhero is supposed to be. Let DC comics take the lead in the race to the bottom for awhile.
And then I found out from the upcoming October solicitations that MARVEL is going to double-dip in
the same fetid cesspool as their distinguished competition.
I should have known that MARVEL would not see that the extensive implosion currently consuming DC comics (cancellation of 9 out of 10 New Age of "Heroes" titles; MAD magazines impending demise; the end of VERTIGO imprint) makes this a dangerous time for MARVEL, especially if MARVEL relies more on hype and copycatting instead of putting out better comic books. As one of the Big Two goes, so goes the other.
After all the effort DC and MARVEL comics made to create a monopoly on the concept of the superhero, the characters quickly devolved to antiheroes, assassins, and killers. And now...the undead.
A universe where the Justice League---the Superman-Batman-Wonder Woman JUSTICE LEAGUE---cannot stop a catastrophic zombie infestation is not one anyone should want to live in.

[Phil]

If you mean Marvel Zombies, the series originally debuted back in 2006, after first appearing in Ultimate Fantastic Four.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Over on NEWSARAMA, with pride MARVEL is soliciting a new zombie comic. DC comics is already publishing their zombie epic, DCeased. How low the industry has gone from "With great power there must also come---great responsibility!" to "We're all monsters."

[Le Messor]

The zombie comics are very popular (among people who are not me), so this is probably going to stave off the financial collapse for a while.

As far as degredation goes, some people (also people who are not me) would argue that does not describe what's been going on.

I suspect they're chasing what they think is popular; a few leaders came out (the usual suspects: Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns) that deconstructed the idea of the superhero. They were dark, they changed the way we saw these characters, they were anti-Code.
They were also very popular, so the companies went chasing after those dollars - by copying the tangibles I just listed, rather than how well-crafted they were. (And they are well-done, whatever your subjective feelings may be about them. I could get kicked out of a comics shop for saying this, but I hate them both.)

That eventually became all we could get, for many, many years. Then the companies started to crawl back, and are still doing so, I think - but there are still a lot of the effects of things like that to wash off.

~ Le Messor
"I remember when comics were something you'd escape to, not something you'd escape from."
~ A comics professional, but I can't remember who or find it online

[Garry/Al-Fan]

The DC fans who find zombies entertaining should be the ones trying to find meaning and value in a played-out, brain-dead concept. As long as one zombie exists, there is going to be a problem. If they are not dispatched a certain way, there's going to be a problem. And if there is NO counter to it in the universe, whether it is the MARVEL universe or the DC universe, than all of their so-called "superheroes" have failed. Miserably.

[Phil]

I don't think it's a new thing though.
The minute Punisher or Suicide Squad or Wolverine or Deadpool or any other "anti-heroes" became popular the road was paved.
And possibly even before that with war comics and horror comics generally - Is Nick Fury a hero?

As long as the zombie versions remain alternate universe what if's then they serve a purpose to highlight what would happen if heroes did fail.

I do agree that having them replace 616 characters would be ludicrous.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Just got the previews (paper-versions) and it is worse than I thought: DC is going all-in with variant zombie covers, line-wide, MARVEL are heralding RESPAWN #1 as "the FIRST ISSUE of this terrifying new vision of the classic Marvel tale!", and I can't believe that we're spending so much time talking about [B]this[B]! Now, the big two will have to keep publishing this junk every few years to exercise and keep the copyright claims to their intellectual property.
Go, Donavann & Matthew Weldon, and Bill Williams (creative team on PUNCHLINE). Go, Joe Benitez and friends on LADY MECHANIKA. Keep up the good work, IMMORTAL HULK team!

[Averyce]

Did people like those Respawn #1 issues?

[Le Messor]

Personally, I'm not getting them; I expect the comics-collecting-world will like them, though.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I won't buy them. When there is no counter to zombies---not even the Power-not-so-Cosmic---the game's over. "Superheroes" with healing factors that can handle EVERYTHING---except zombie-ism... it's game, set, match. Vileness wins.

[Le Messor]

Further to Garry's point:
When I read (or watch) stories, what I want is a sense of hope. An idea that, no matter how bad things get, the good guys do win, and things get better.

Horror can do that better than other stories, since the 'no matter how bad things get' part is often so much worse than in other stories.

Unstoppable zombies, which you can't do anything about, undermine that.

That's not to say I hate all unhappy endings and 'or did they?' endings, but when there's a sense of futility over it all, it doesn't do it for me; and there are no stakes, because we already know we've lost.
I feel similar about grimdark universes.

~ Le Messor
"Punctuality is the virtue of the bored."
~ Evelyn Waugh

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Since 18,261 copies of the ALPHA FLIGHT: TRUE NORTH one-shot were ordered (according to Comichron), "Canada's Premier Superteam could use some more exposure before enough of an audience can sustain a new series. I propose an 8-page, gate-fold insert like the advertisement/solicitation in the current IMMORTAL HULK (# 28 ), and I suggest placing the 8-page ALPHA FLIGHT insert in 9 comic books: (1) IMMORTAL HULK; (2) Dr. STRANGE; (3) STRANGE ACADEMY; (4) WOLVERINE; (5) CAPTAIN MARVEL; (6) THE AVENGERS; (7) GUARDIANS of the GALAXY; (8 ) HELLIONS, and; (9) THE X-MEN.A short, tight-paced story that re-introduces core ALPHA FLIGHT is what I envision.

[Le Messor]

That's a good way to advertise.

I used to be against marketing and resist the idea that it was so important. Then I began to realise how many things I'd never read (or watched) which I hadn't even known existed. Admittedly, some of them I wouldn't have read/watched anyway, but still: it matters.

~ Le Messor
"One of the hardest things in life is having words in your heart that you can't express."
~ Richard Lawton

[Garry/Al-Fan]

If sales have been declining, year after year, maybe MARVEL should consider getting a few ASSISTANT VPs of content & character development. If an audience isn't being established for new characters/characters intended to make it BIG at the movies, maybe MARVEL should consider finding a place for some experienced comic book veterans who still want to tell good stories.

[Le Messor]

maybe MARVEL should consider finding a place for some experienced comic book veterans who still want to tell good stories.

Agreed.
Good storytelling should be the first concern of all creators


If an audience isn't being established for new characters/characters intended to make it BIG at the movies
There are two problems here:
One, few comics these days are accessible to children. Partly because of content (I wouldn't show kids a lot of the stuff in comics these days), partly because of the death of the spinner racks - basically, you have to go to a comic book shop to get them. Even if there's one in your home town, not everybody is willing to go out of their way to find them, or will even think to.

Two, apparently quite a few people watched the Marvel movies and DID go to comic shops to read about their characters - but none of the characters on their screens were the same as the ones in the books. They'd got legacied out.

Those are things that need to be fixed if the industry is to continue.

~ Le Messor
"The average amount of sleep required by the average person is 'just five more minutes'."
~ Anonymous

[Garry/Al-Fan]

That seems (to me) to be a serious, significant mismatch if what is portrayed at the movies isn't the same as what is in the comic books.

I just hope MARVEL can recapture some of the good sequential storytelling that it used to have, with the kind of craftsmanship and heroes that made it one of the Big Two.

[Le Messor]

It's always been the way; remember when the Blade movies were big hits, and there was no Blade comic book at the time?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I would've gone with a Guardians of the Galaxy movie/comic (so I've read) mismatch, because I actually think the first 2 Blade movies did a good job of reenvisioning the character.
I am getting to a point where I won't mind if MARVEL determines it's current output is intended for a newer audience, a newer fandom...even for ALPHA FLIGHT.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

In September 2019, according to COMICHRON, The Magnificent Ms. Marvel # 7 had 13,097 copies ordered/sold. ALPHA FLIGHT: TRUE NORTH had 18,261 copies ordered/sold. In fact, the orders/sales of Ms. Marvel have been below AF:TN in October (13,023), November (12,230), December (12,098, and January 2020 (13,116). If MARVEL's VP of Content and Character Development considers The Magnificent Ms. Marvel a success (regardless of the order/sales numbers), but does not consider ALPHA FLIGHT: TRUE NORTH a success, then there is a clear and undeniable double standard in effect. Good characters are good characters, whether they are black, white, or zebra-stripe. And original ALPHA FLIGHT are good characters. My eight-page (re-)introduction of the All-Old, All-Familiar ALPHA FLIGHT is ready for submission.

[Le Messor]

I'd love to see a new Alpha Flight series handled well; but please note that there's a massive difference between (expected) sales for a one-shot vs #7 of a series.
What's successful for one wouldn't be the same as what's successful for another.

I don't know what the difference is, but I do know that #1s (of a series) are expected to sell more than #2s, which are more than #3s, etc (it eventually settles, generally). Which is why there were two series of Squirrel Girl started in the same year; so they'd have another #1. :/ (That isn't two series that ran at the same time; they rebooted it in the same year it started.)

~ Le Messor
"The big print giveth and the fine print taketh away."
~ Monsignor J. Fulton Sheen

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I hear you.

[Phil]

The thing with those numbers is that they relate purely to Direct Market Diamond Comic stores and don't take into account digital copies or trades, which is how a lot of younger audiences tend to pick up titles these days.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I hear you, too.
So there is one set of rules for one title, and a different (shifting) set of rules for another.

[Phil]

Not at all; digital sales still count for AF.
I just imagine that a lot of AF readership are old school paper readers, like myself.

My comments at http://alphaflight.net/content.php?1154-Alpha-Flight-True-North-Sales-Figures agreed with yours.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Okay, but I'd like my submission to be solicited. If it doesn't nudge ALPHA FLIGHT closer to being the heroes they can be, then that will be my shot at it and then somebody else can make their pitch.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Over on YouTube, there is talk of GAMESTOP not selling MARVEL & DC comics anymore. Is that going to impact the comic book industry in any way? Is the comic book industry shrinking?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I'm new to TWITTER, but there seems to be a growing number of artists' renditions of the characters. Could these mean that MARVEL is planning to do something with this property?

[Le Messor]

I like your comment title. :D

It's possible that something's going to happen soon - I hope something does, and something good.
BUT, it could just mean they're getting requests, or that they've got nothing to do during the quarantine. Maybe a lot of more obscure characters are being drawn. (I don't follow Twitter at all, except this thread, so I don't know.)

I also know that I've been planning for months to scan in all my old artwork and photos; I've finally just finished it now, in part because the quarantine has given me extra time. Maybe that's what others have been doing, and a few of them happen to have AF pictures?
(I definitely do, and plan to share some when I get them organised, if I can get my head around posting images here.)

~ Le Messor
"Things are beautiful if you love them."
~ Jean Anouilh

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Imagine if---from ALPHA FLIGHT # 29 to #36---a consistent creative team crafted a storyline that actually treated ALPHA FLIGHT like "Canada's Greatest Heroes." Imagine if, for at least 8 issues, the writer, artist/inker, letterer, colorist, editor/assistant editors, and the editor-in-chief were all committed to telling a cohesive, coherent story featuring 9 (possibly 12) of the core members of the team. Imagine starting with a double-size issue (like the first issues of volumes 1 & 2) and culminating in a super-size anniversary issue # 36 (like volume 1's issues #12 and #24). Imagine.

[Le Messor]

I'm picturing X-Men Forever, but for Alpha Flight.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

​

[Le Messor]

Hi Garry,

The attachment still isn't working. I'm seeing a blank post above.

[Tawmis]

The attachment still isn't working. I'm seeing a blank post above.Snowbird in a snowstorm issue.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

It will never happen, but who wouldn't want to see an ALPHA FLIGHT story by John Byrne and Joe Bennett? A Byrne illustration of Doc Sasquatch? A Bennett illustration of the twins?

It'll probably never happen, though.

[Le Messor]

I was just reading CSN's Red K awards, and they gave John Byrne an MIA for not having published a comic in 4 years.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Will he be back?

[Le Messor]

Do you mean The Master? Probably.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Yes, that's who I meant. I would have included a picture, but the attachment function doesn't seem to work for me.

[Le Messor]

You got the point across. :)

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Weapon Alpha, Aurora, Doc Langkowski, Marrina, Northstar,
Puck, Shaman, Snowbird, and Talisman.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

ALPHA FLIGHT and the Mansion of Mystery

A nebulous past.
A sketchy present.
An uncertain future.

THE LIFE AND TIMES OF ALPHA FLIGHT

[Garry/Al-Fan]

The All-Old, All-Familiar ALPHA FLIGHT

[Le Messor]

Lol!
Also, I was kind of worried because this morning I couldn't get on to the site and I thought it was shut down.

I've figured out what I want isn't the team so much as a combo of the team and Byrne's writing and art from the period.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Sounds like a winner.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...to the death?