Opinions on the ending to volume 4.

[Yankee]

Now on the surface, I am not entirely opposed to the idea of Mac leading Alpha flight, while Heather raises Claire as a single parent (or for that matter go against the grain and have Heather lead the flight and Mac be a stay at home dad.) but the execution......geez where do I start.

1. Heather is still under Unity control when she takes off with Claire. This makes her departure anything but a happy ending as she is technically still brainwashed (the only reason she briefly turned on the master is because he threatened Claire.) under which she has shown up no problem straight up murdering her cousin, and showed zero remorse for ordering government sanctioned murder against her teammates. Even a brainwashed heather I can't buy saying, " I thought I told them to kill that little ****" (in reference to puck.) how is this a feel good moment as the last page and particulalrly the last line let daddy protect his country and ill protect you bluntly suggest it's supposed to be?

2. Because of point 1, I have a real hard time swallowing Alpha Flight has not put out an all points bulletin out on heather and Claire. As much as Mac loves heather, he knows full well what the unity process does and I cannot seem he resigning himself to the fact that his only child is being raised by a ticking time bomb. Also how can he just sit idly by with the women he loves still controlled by said process. And how can Puck and Wolverine let this happen, particularly based on their extensive history and platonic love for Heather?

[Phil]

I'd recommend reading Amazing X-Men:World War Wendigo, if you haven't already.
While it doesn't address the issues you've outlined, it moves AF on from Vol.4.

[Yankee]

I'd recommend reading Amazing X-Men:World War Wendigo, if you haven't already.
While it doesn't address the issues you've outlined, it moves AF on from Vol.4.
I'll definately check that out!

[Tawmis]

I'd recommend reading Amazing X-Men:World War Wendigo, if you haven't already.
While it doesn't address the issues you've outlined, it moves AF on from Vol.4.

I can't remember if Claire was ever addressed? I have a feeling she was - I feel like when she was explaining things to Wolverine?

[Phil]

5192

[Yankee]

5191
the link doesn't work. At least not from me

[Phil]

Try it now.

[Yankee]

It worked that time! Wow....... Rough year is understatement of the century.

[Le Messor]

Now on the surface, I am not entirely opposed to the idea of Mac leading Alpha Flight... but the execution... She has no problem straight up murdering her cousin, and showed zero remorse for ordering government sanctioned murder against her teammates... How is this a feel good moment as the last page?
How can he just sit idly by with the woman he loves still controlled by said process?

So, basically, v4 is DC?

[Legerd]

Sadly, comic book companies tend to just ignore/forget/gloss over a lot of the where-do-we-go-from-here moments that really need further story time when it comes to the B and C list characters. Hopefully, someone decides to tell the story about how Heather was on the run with Claire, was hunted down, captured, deprogrammed, and went through therapy to deal with murdering her cousins. I think it would make for a great little miniseries with a lot of dark undertones.
Maybe someone here could write a fanfic?

[Tawmis]

So, basically, v4 is DC?

Because we have never seen Heather kill - not even programmed? - and suffer no consequence of it?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111115588/3938158-guardian+h+28.jpg

Oh. That's right. She killed Snowbird. Showed no remorse. Suffered no consequence. No jail time. Nothing. Just moved on.

[Le Messor]

You make a good point, Tawmis.

~ Le Messor
"Forgiveness is not an occasional act: it is a permanent attitude."
~ Dr. Martin Luther King

[Yankee]

Um she did show remorse or did you forget the beginning of the very next issue when the team buried snowbird, her husband, and their child? And if she hadn't killed snowbird then the evil pestilence would have taken control of snowbirds body. That's a very different situation from murdering her cousins because they had LEGAL custody of Claire.

[Tawmis]

Um she did show remorse or did you forget the beginning of the very next issue when the team buried snowbird, her husband, and their child? And if she hadn't killed snowbird then the evil pestilence would have taken control of snowbirds body. That's a very different situation from murdering her cousins because they had LEGAL custody of Claire.

I remember the burial on the cliff - I don't remember Heather reflecting on any remorse.

Certainly lacking faith that perhaps Snowbird (a demi-goddess) might have been able to do something if Pestilence tried it, rather than going straight for, "Let's kill our beloved teammate."

(Granted, Snowbird eventually came back - but as one of my favorites at the time, I was _so_ pissed... and that fury still boils deep... as you can see). :)

At least when she murdered her cousins - if I remember correctly - she was still mentally programmed. And Marvel gives a free pass when that happens. (Cough, Cough, Winter Soldier killing Nomad in cold blood, cough, cough).

[Yankee]

If that's not remorse I don't know what is Tawmis. And she did hesitate to give snowbird a chance, because she could have killed her earlier to allow the baby's good spirit to render pestilence inert, instead the controlled snowbird killed the child, showing heather snowbird had no control and she had to be stopped. And again to compare this to what happend in volume 4 is comparing apples and oranges. But then again snow bird was arguably my least favorite character during this arc so maybe I im biased. But then further again heather spent a lot of time in this arc ciritcizing my fav character, Puck, and yet I'm still arguing her case :p

[Le Messor]

Honestly, I think those are both horrible plot developments from two of my least favourite times on Alpha Flight.

~ Le Messor
"Get off the starting block, then improve your position."
~ Dave Roberson, former New Trier swim coach

[Phil]

Heather may have shown remorse, but there were no repercussions. Although I suppose technically Narya wasn't a legally registered citizen.

I enjoyed V4 and didn't mind the Heather killing scene too much; it wasn't handled perfectly, but what is?

I'm sure she's shown remorse off-panel ;)

[Tawmis]

Heather may have shown remorse, but there were no repercussions. Although I suppose technically Narya wasn't a legally registered citizen.


Didn't she have a government job (in her "human" form)? She had to be a legally registered citizen (or at least an alias, as such). Even the handbook lists her as a legal citizen of Canada, with no criminal record.

5200

[Phil]

"Anne McKenzie" was registered, yes - using falsified documentation.
Narya wouldn't have been, as she couldn't have had a birth certificate, so definitely couldn't have had a death certificate.
As she wasn't killed in human state it's debatable as to if it would have been documented.

All 'technically' guesses, though.

Comics! :D

[Le Messor]

On the one hand, her birth - which was definitely in Canada - was overseen by a doctor. I wouldn't be surprised if she had a genuine birth certificate (with her birth year changed by deed poll).

On the other hand, you must be right about the false certification for Anne, but:


Narya wouldn't have been, as she couldn't have had a birth certificate, so definitely couldn't have had a death certificate.

I'd be surprised if that were true. Plenty of people must die without a birth certificate; not to mention John and Jane Does. They'd still have death certificates (I'd assume).

Also, I hope Canada doesn't waive the 'do not murder' law for non-citizens. If they do, I wish somebody had told me that before I went there!

This is all me making a bunch of assumptions, but I HOPE they're all true. But it does the risk of turning us all into donkeys. But we are talking about an interspecies shapeshifter here.

~ Le Messor
"Give me ambiguity or give me something else."
~ Bumper Sticker

[Phil]

It's more the fact she's not human...
Does Marrina have one?

[Le Messor]

You're probably right, that would come into it. (Though I hope it's not too much of an issue in a place the the Marvel Universe, where human non-humans are common.)

Marrina? ...probably, but one of those 'forged' ones like they give to adoptees.

~ Le Messor
"Parents learn a lot from their children about coping with life."
~ Muriel Spark

[Yankee]

I do not consider Heather killing of snowbird murder. At all. If she hadn't, then pestilence would have used snowbirds power to devastate canada if not the world, so that isn't murder. And in my opinion, snowbird the character would have made the same decision in heathers shoes. Was it not her who killed Walter when Tarnaq took control of his form ? Or does she get a pass because his spirit was still alive? I Get being bitter having a favorite character die, but if the writer gave their killer a worthy reason of doing so, then while I might be mad at the writer, I won't be mad at the killing character. In my opinion, heather saved the world, shed remorse for having to kill her friend, what more do you people want? I don't take this incident as viewing characters like snowbird or Marrina as being okay to murder non humans in marvel universe canada, I see it as a leader having to make a tough choice on saving her friend or Saving the world. But that's the last Im going to say on this subject, ending with by paraphrasing Jon Stewart when he debated Bill oreilly "we subscribe to two different definitions of the reality in which we live. it is one think to debate principles and political positions. But if we believe in two different realities, then at least one of us is trying to solve a nonexistent problem. "

[Tawmis]

I do not consider Heather killing of snowbird murder. At all. If she hadn't, then pestilence would have used snowbirds power to devastate canada if not the world, so that isn't murder. And in my opinion, snowbird the character would have made the same decision in heathers shoes. Was it not her who killed Walter when Tarnaq took control of his form ? Or does she get a pass because his spirit was still alive? I Get being bitter having a favorite character die, but if the writer gave their killer a worthy reason of doing so, then while I might be mad at the writer, I won't be mad at the killing character. In my opinion, heather saved the world, shed remorse for having to kill her friend, what more do you people want? I don't take this incident as viewing characters like snowbird or Marrina as being okay to murder non humans in marvel universe canada, I see it as a leader having to make a tough choice on saving her friend or Saving the world. But that's the last Im going to say on this subject, ending with by paraphrasing Jon Stewart when he debated Bill oreilly "we subscribe to two different definitions of the reality in which we live. it is one think to debate principles and political positions. But if we believe in two different realities, then at least one of us is trying to solve a nonexistent problem. "

See, this is where we differ. To me, killing a fellow team member is not a heroic act, by any stretch of the imagination. Your team is there, because they believe in you. The moment she killed Snowbird, the rest of the team should have asked themselves, "Hold up - if she was so willing to kill Snowbird... what would stop her from killing me?"

I get Pestilence is strong... but Snowbird was a demi-goddess. She wasn't just a normal, human being. I would have at least (you know if this were all "real") - given Snowbird a chance to fight it off - and if it went south - call in Doctor Strange, or Thor or someone. I would not opt to kill my team mate first "just in case."

[Yankee]

See, this is where we differ. To me, killing a fellow team member is not a heroic act, by any stretch of the imagination. Your team is there, because they believe in you. The moment she killed Snowbird, the rest of the team should have asked themselves, "Hold up - if she was so willing to kill Snowbird... what would stop her from killing me?"

I get Pestilence is strong... but Snowbird was a demi-goddess. She wasn't just a normal, human being. I would have at least (you know if this were all "real") - given Snowbird a chance to fight it off - and if it went south - call in Doctor Strange, or Thor or someone. I would not opt to kill my team mate first "just in case."

Heres the thing what I think all of us forgetting here: Heather gave Snowbird the chance to fight off Pestilence. If you remember the original dilemma was this for heather: Kill Snowbird BEFORE she could kill Snowbirds baby (which as the comic established, the baby's purity was already succeeding in destroying pestilence from within and if that happened pestilence couldn't spread to a new host because his spirt would be wiped out without the physical form dying ) or give Snowbird the chance to snap out of it and hopefully save both her and the baby. Heather chose the latter,saying afterwards, "but she was a sister Alphan, a friend. I hesitated." So in fact, Killing snowbird was not the first option heather chose. She actually gave her "sister alphan" that chance to fight off pestilence. And in giving her said chance, snowbird had to watch as her own body killed her baby. heather's hesitation allowed pestilence via snowbird to murder a helpless child. If snowbird couldn't snap out of the mind control to halt herself from killing her own child, what chance did she had to fight off pestilence now residing in her own body, let along doing so in a grief stricken state? Giving her a further chance could have resulted in many of the other teammates in the caves dying ( puck was incapacitated I believe, Northstar was dying from the illness Pestilence sped up inside him, shaman without the confidence to attempt to purge pestilence from snowbirds mind, and Aurora had withdrawn back into her Jean Marie persona. As Spock famously said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Snowbirds life versus potentially losing every other team member in the caves? Come on now. Heather gave Narya a chance to fight off pestilence: the result? A child lost their life at the hands of his mother. She couldn't afford to make the same mistake twice. And as for calling Thor and Dr. Strange? 1. The one mystic member who could have sent out the required psychic call for help, Shaman, was incapacitated with fear. 2. Considering how many battles are likely going on simultaneously in the Marvel U, what if they are unable to answer the call due to being tied up with other matters? and 3. Heather had precious seconds to make her decision, seconds that would end long before other Mystics had time to arrive. And I know I said I was done commenting on this line of dialogue, but you did provide questions worthy of being answered, or at the very least seen through another persons viewpoint

[Phil]

The thing is that Heather was brainwashed.
Not indoctrinated, but actually re-programmed by an alien. (I know Eshu wasn't, but at this point he's more Plodex than man, so using the term for lack of a better one, and for how a 'normal' human would see it in the MU)

She wasn't responsible for her actions; ergo she didn't commit them.
A decent lawyer could easily get her off that.

[Yankee]

The thing is that Heather was brainwashed.
Not indoctrinated, but actually re-programmed by an alien. (I know Eshu wasn't, but at this point he's more Plodex than man, so using the term for lack of a better one, and for how a 'normal' human would see it in the MU)

She wasn't responsible for her actions; ergo she didn't commit them.
A decent lawyer could easily get her off that.

Okay I see now we are back to the original subject to this thread after that all consuming snowbird detour. Who in the hell is Eshu unless that is the Masters real name which I somehow missed? But here's my relevant to the thread question: couldnt the master have reprogrammed Heather to where she didn't see Claire as necessary? By that I mean, Heather diverted his precious resources to get Claire , something he himself had no use for. And in fact, with the legal guardians being Codys supporters, killing them is an U unessecary and dangerous risk. That suggests to me that while the brainwashing changed her perception of right and wrong to the point where she felt killing unarmed innocents as valid, the desire to get Claire back was something there well prior to the brainwashing ie the unity process. I'm not suggesting she considered killing her cousins, but that sense of wronged by the government she had sworn to protect was already there for the unity process to manipulate even further till it reached the conclusion of murder is okay if I get my child back. One thing I will also say is that it seems a lot of people on this board are opposed to change or for characters to evolve, particular the original AF core. I mean until that 2011 relaunch, Marrina hadn't been seen since the late eighties, yet people expected her to be exactly as she had left, with no growth. And I maintain her initial core was in fact intact, just with a bit of an attitudinal change, which you know, happens to many people in real life.

[Phil]

Who in the hell is Eshu unless that is the Masters real name which I somehow missed?
Yup, correct!


couldnt the master have reprogrammed Heather to where she didn't see Claire as necessary?

the desire to get Claire back was something there well prior to the brainwashing ie the unity process.
Now obviously I'm no expert in fictional brainwashing (:lol:), but I'm guessing that's the point.
The Master needed a hook, or a seed to build on for the brainwashing, much as a hypnotic suggestion in the real world needs a focal point and often involves a memory and is grounded in reality. A weakness to exploit.
Jeanne-Marie had hers in the difference of her personalities.

Claire was the control he had over her and the aspect of her that allowed her to succumb to the brainwashing.


Marrina hadn't been seen since the late eighties, yet people expected her to be exactly as she had left, with no growth.
Probably because she'd been dead since the 80's, so growth wasn't possible.
Her previous reincarnated appearance in the CW:AF oneshot showed no change, or at least not the V4 change.


And I maintain her initial core was in fact intact, just with a bit of an attitudinal change, which you know, happens to many people in real life.
I agree; I had no problem with it.
To me it made more sense than her marrying Namor.

[Le Messor]

Please note, my tone here is one of calm curiosity, not aggressive nastiness. I never know how these things will be read.


a lot of people ... are opposed to change or for characters to evolve,

I see this argument a lot: 'if you don't like this change, you are opposed to all change.'
It makes me ask: what's wrong with opposing change? If I love something (original AF, in this case) the way it is, changing it is more likely to make me love it less than more; why would I support that?

Also, Marinna didn't just change a little; she did a complete 180°, and became a character who was enslaved to the book's anger, rather than the sweet, innocent girl from the first, without even a hand-wave explanation. I'm not seeing the core of which you speak of - she was unrecognisable to me. While the new character wasn't bad, I prefer the old version.

OTOH, I've never said that's not realistic. A lot of people have made the argument that the things she went through could make that happen, and I have no counter-argument to that.
I have often said, however, that if I'm saying I'm not enjoying something, calling that thing 'realistic' will never, ever change my mind. (If I'm calling it stupid, however, you can make a case.)
That said, I seem to remember the writer saying he did it because he didn't like to write the kind of character she used to be - not because of 'realism'.


Her previous reincarnated appearance in the CW:AF oneshot showed no change, or at least not the V4 change.

Do you mean the FI:AF oneshot?

~ Le Messor
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment."
~ Anonymous

[Phil]

Do you mean the FI:AF oneshot?
Nope! Chaos War: Alpha Flight (http://alphaflight.net/content.php?426-Review-Chaos-War-One-shot-Le-Messor-take), where she first came back to life ;)

[Le Messor]

Hunh. I'm seriously confusing things! ;)

[Yankee]

To be honest even though I used your use of Marrina as my example, my issue was more with Tawmis refusal to see any logic in heathers decision to kill snowbird. Not the writers decision to have her kill snowbird, but the heather the characters decision.

[Phil]

:lol:
I think we're straying into meta-territory here!

Heather's decision is obviously the writer's decision - a specifically crafted hard choice; both killing Snowbird and then Heather's family. In both cases Heather's decisions are written, and written for a reason.

Whether either piece of writing struck gold and worked 100% as the writer originally imagined is a different story.

And, as fan's of characters there is a tenancy to take an action personally and emotively; you've clearly stated that you're a Heather fan so don't like the fact that she has done something so horrific. Because of that you don't like the storyline.
Tawmis has stated he was a big fan of Snowbird so obviously he didn't like the first storyline.
It's not a 'refusal to see logic' just a difference in how that logic is perceived.

I absolutely ADORE change, be it good or bad.
As much as I love Byrne's run, I'd go crazy if the team hadn't changed since then.
I love what other writer's have added to the characters, and don't care that it goes against their original personality - I'm sure as hell not the same person I was 35 years ago ;)

[Yankee]

:lol:
I think we're straying into meta-territory here!

Heather's decision is obviously the writer's decision - a specifically crafted hard choice; both killing Snowbird and then Heather's family. In both cases Heather's decisions are written, and written for a reason.

Whether either piece of writing struck gold and worked 100% as the writer originally imagined is a different story.

And, as fan's of characters there is a tenancy to take an action personally and emotively; you've clearly stated that you're a Heather fan so don't like the fact that she has done something so horrific. Because of that you don't like the storyline.
Tawmis has stated he was a big fan of Snowbird so obviously he didn't like the first storyline.
It's not a 'refusal to see logic' just a difference in how that logic is perceived.

I absolutely ADORE change, be it good or bad.
As much as I love Byrne's run, I'd go crazy if the team hadn't changed since then.
I love what other writer's have added to the characters, and don't care that it goes against their original personality - I'm sure as hell not the same person I was 35 years ago ;)

Touche. I concede the floor there

[Phil]

No need to concede!

The thread is very clearly marked as opinions on Volume 4 - you gave yours; feel free to carry on giving them!

No-one has to share any opinions, or ever change theirs.

[Tawmis]

To be honest even though I used your use of Marrina as my example, my issue was more with Tawmis refusal to see any logic in heathers decision to kill snowbird. Not the writers decision to have her kill snowbird, but the heather the characters decision.

I don't think there's logic to really be considered. We are, after all, discussing fictional characters. Holden says it best:
https://youtu.be/0nVGCVlCzL0


I completely understand your opinion that it was something, you felt, Heather needed to do. And it's not that I disagree with your opinion. It's yours, and that's cool.

I guess, for me - when I think of Heather, I never saw her (prior to this) as someone so ruthless. I mean, even when they first found Logan, she was defensive over him - wanting to utterly protect him, even at the risk of her own health. She had always been written as someone who was very gentle and caring. So, her blasting Snowbird - I get why she did it - but it seemed, to me, out of character. It'd like watching this same situation go down and thinking that Captain America, or Thor, or Hawkeye would kill a fellow Avenger in this same situation. I don't think they would.

So I get why the writer did it. He needed to shuffle out the "old school" Alpha Flight (I still believe this was his plan all along) to usher in a new set of characters to take over the book.

I mean, take out the fact that it's Snowbird. Had Heather blasted - I don't know, Earthmover - I probably wouldn't have been annoyed back then - but I'd still be under the belief that it seemed out of character for her.


Circling back to the original post - Heather killing her cousin.

As we stated - under mind control, Marvel always excuses. Prime example, Captain America (the boy scout of all boy scouts) holds no apparent grudge towards Winter Soldier (Bucky) who killed Nomad (Jack Monroe) while "under the influence" of someone's mental manipulation. So if Cap can "forgive" someone, it seems like anyone in Marvel can.

And the story has moved on past that, in World War Wendigo, where we see Heather is apparently no longer under the control of Unity, and "back" to herself.

As to why Puck and Wolverine didn't do anything - well, since she's cured - who knows. She may have gotten help from them (off panel). If not, I could see that they may not have known. Puck was busy palling around with his new team that he was on X-Force, while Wolverine was busy being an Avenger, an Uncanny Avenger, a Secret Avenger, X-Men, X-Force, Uncanny X-Force, and Spider-Man's side kick, and whatever other title Marvel has - so Wolverine was probably entirely too busy himself dealing with everything from every book he's in.

[Yankee]

I don't think there's logic to really be considered. We are, after all, discussing fictional characters. Holden says it best:
https://youtu.be/0nVGCVlCzL0


I completely understand your opinion that it was something, you felt, Heather needed to do. And it's not that I disagree with your opinion. It's yours, and that's cool.

I guess, for me - when I think of Heather, I never saw her (prior to this) as someone so ruthless. I mean, even when they first found Logan, she was defensive over him - wanting to utterly protect him, even at the risk of her own health. She had always been written as someone who was very gentle and caring. So, her blasting Snowbird - I get why she did it - but it seemed, to me, out of character. It'd like watching this same situation go down and thinking that Captain America, or Thor, or Hawkeye would kill a fellow Avenger in this same situation. I don't think they would.

So I get why the writer did it. He needed to shuffle out the "old school" Alpha Flight (I still believe this was his plan all along) to usher in a new set of characters to take over the book.

I mean, take out the fact that it's Snowbird. Had Heather blasted - I don't know, Earthmover - I probably wouldn't have been annoyed back then - but I'd still be under the belief that it seemed out of character for her.


Circling back to the original post - Heather killing her cousin.

As we stated - under mind control, Marvel always excuses. Prime example, Captain America (the boy scout of all boy scouts) holds no apparent grudge towards Winter Soldier (Bucky) who killed Nomad (Jack Monroe) while "under the influence" of someone's mental manipulation. So if Cap can "forgive" someone, it seems like anyone in Marvel can.

And the story has moved on past that, in World War Wendigo, where we see Heather is apparently no longer under the control of Unity, and "back" to herself.

As to why Puck and Wolverine didn't do anything - well, since she's cured - who knows. She may have gotten help from them (off panel). If not, I could see that they may not have known. Puck was busy palling around with his new team that he was on X-Force, while Wolverine was busy being an Avenger, an Uncanny Avenger, a Secret Avenger, X-Men, X-Force, Uncanny X-Force, and Spider-Man's side kick, and whatever other title Marvel has - so Wolverine was probably entirely too busy himself dealing with everything from every book he's in.
Hear hear. Let's be friends Tawmis :)

[Le Messor]

I absolutely ADORE change, be it good or bad.
I'm sure as hell not the same person I was 35 years ago ;)

No-one has to share any opinions, or ever change theirs.

Hee hee hee...
These two just made me laugh.

(Sorry Phil... I do get holding both those opinions at the same time, it's just interesting to see them so close together.)


So I get why the writer did it. He needed to shuffle out the "old school" Alpha Flight (I still believe this was his plan all along) to usher in a new set of characters to take over the book.

Hunh. I thought that was actually a known fact, not something to 'believe'?

~ Le Messor
The winning entry in a "What were HAL's first words?" contest judged by Arthur C. Clarke:
"Good morning, doctors. I have taken the liberty of removing Windows 95 from my hard drive."

[Tawmis]

Hunh. I thought that was actually a known fact, not something to 'believe'?


Known now, I believe, because it was confirmed in an interview, if I remember correctly.

But back in 1980-or 90-something, before the days of the Internet, I was already getting the impression that this "new writer" was out to shuffle out the team and do a "All New X-Men" - er, "All New Alpha Flight."

To be honest though, I didn't blame Bill initially. I actually blamed Byrne, for putting the team in a position of not having Mac. It was like killing Captain America in Avengers, or Cyclops (back then) in Uncanny X-Men. Was a "$%^&" move, I thought - like, "I am taking my toys and leaving." (Again, would not learn till the days of the internet, that he actually disliked writing Alpha Flight, so it seemed odd to kill off Mac, if he was intending on leaving anyway... though, I suppose, he didn't leave till almost a little over a year later...)

[Phil]

Hee hee hee...
These two just made me laugh.
(Sorry Phil... I do get holding both those opinions at the same time, it's just interesting to see them so close together.)
Change of character isn't necessarily change of belief :P (but yeah, I appreciate the humorous irony!)