Marvel sucking in the comic department.

[Bill P]

Too much focus on movies?

http://epicstream.com/news/DC-Comics-Gets-Power-Share-of-August-2016-Comic-Market

[Bill P]

I haven't bought a comic in years. Always been a Marvel person in the late 1970's - they just don't make a good product as they used to.

[-K-M-]

I'm interested in DC's Rebirth, but yeah overall marvel has been very lackluster. Don't agree with them constantly replacing their main heroes and not just make good new characters. It's so forced

[Phil]

Hmm, I disagree.
Rebirth has been completely unreadable to me; so convoluted and requires too much information of multiple universes and reboots.

Marvel has made great massive strides to get new comics readers and they've done amazingly.
These comics may not be for me, but it's so heartwarming to see a new generation of child readers, almost 50/50 split genderwise.

The figures in the article are only for Diamond Comic store sales; they don't count Digital sales, Bookstore sales or worldwide sales.

Yeah, Marvel took a beating that month , but with all DC's #1's that was always going to happen. I'm sure they're still ahead for the year, not that it really matters.

[-K-M-]

Oh yes DC isn't much better I'm just interested in seeing the watchmen in the greater dcu

[Phil]

I think if they hadn't done Before Watchman I'd have been interested, but now I just really can't be bothered with the characters, personally.

[Le Messor]

I think it's really hard to judge on a top 10.
There are still a few decent comics - I'm loving Squirrel Girl and liking the current Nova. I don't like them replacing all of their main characters at once - yeah, it's forced.

Right now, though, I'd rather read most of Marvel than any of DC. Of course, there are also indies out there.


I think if they hadn't done Before Watchman I'd have been interested, but now I just really can't be bothered with the characters, personally.

Wow, it's interesting to see how publicity stunts backfire like that. :)

~ Le Messor
"I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year."
~ The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957

[Yankee]

if your talking on a creative standpoint i have to disagree. I love the directions most of the ongoing marvel series i subscribe to (deadpool, daredevil, both caps, antman, black panther,) are going creatively atm (hydra steve notwithstanding) and civil war ive liked the majority of but then again maybe im just a black sheep of the comic reading public

[Phil]

http://www.newsarama.com/23541-the-10-bestselling-comic-book-issues-of-21st-century.html

[Le Messor]

http://www.newsarama.com/23541-the-10-bestselling-comic-book-issues-of-21st-century.html

First, Phil, I take your point: most of that was Marvel.

Second, that makes me sad. Most of those titles do not appeal to me in the slightest; I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness, crying out for the kinds of comics I like, realising that the problem is me after all.

Most of that list makes me think 'Oh, no, people are really reading this?!? In those kinds of numbers?!?' - not everything, but quite a lot of it.

I've read a total of two of those comics - Civil War #2, in trade, and Star Wars #1.

I read Civil War on the tail end of feeling the need to read 'major storylines' - and now I don't.

Star Wars is the only one that really appealed to me, and that turned out to be... okay. Not great, but okay - and I started asking myself very quickly 'if there've been Star Wars comics almost as long as I've been collecting, why have I just now started buying them?'.
I dropped the series like a hot rock polka the second Vader Down was announced (crossovers? Once you start down that path, forever will they dominate your destiny).

P.S. Kudos to Newsarama for using the word 'penultimate' correctly! :)

~ Le Messor
"I know God will not give me anything I can't handle. I just wish He wouldn't trust me so much."
~ Mother Teresa

[Phil]

Oh, I totally agree that 'biggest selling' does not equate 'best quality' in the slightest.
Just balancing out that they're not 'sucking'

[Le Messor]

Oh, I totally agree that 'biggest selling' does not equate 'best quality' in the slightest.

... Yeah, but apparently 90% of the comics-buying public disagrees with us. ),:

[Puckeroo]

Well then I think good to be broke now...I have not bought comics it months - am counting the 5 dollar packs at wal - mart.

[-K-M-]

civil war 2 is one of the highest selling issues? Wow. That issue was terrible

star wars I'm not surprised about. Best books marvel is putting out.

[Sypes]

I stopped buying comics on a monthly basis. Every time I went to the store to get the few comics I bought, they were never there. Either they hadn't come out, or if they had, they were gone. So I gave up.

BUT! That forced me to buy the "volumes" (paperback?) when they come out, and made me discover the AMAZING world of Transformers: More Than Meets The Eye! OMG!!! Best comic I've ever ever ever read! I want James Roberts to come and write Alpha Flight now!

[Phil]

civil war 2 is one of the highest selling issues? Wow. That issue was terrible
Peter Parker coming out to the mainstream media as Spider-Man. Pretty big deal.


made me discover the AMAZING world of Transformers: More Than Meets The Eye! OMG!!! Best comic I've ever ever ever read! I want James Roberts to come and write Alpha Flight now!
Aha! Now I know who you are on Twitter! ;)

[Phil]

Also, the reason DC's Rebirth #1's are selling so well is because they made them returnable for free, meaning retailers could over-order safely.
Expect #2's onwards to shrink drastically, especially with double shipping.

[-K-M-]

Peter Parker coming out to the mainstream media as Spider-Man. Pretty big deal.


Aha! Now I know who you are on Twitter! ;)

that was civil war 1 #2. I'm talking about civil war 2 #1. Which was ranked 8. Bendis civil war story

[Phil]

The link is talking about the Millar one.

[Le Messor]

The link talks about both.

[Phil]

My bad.
I saw the 2 as #2 rather than II #1.
KM is correct.

Though CWII #1 is due to the amount of Store Exclusive Variants.

To be fair, I liked #1. And #4.
#0, 2,3 & 5 have been terrible though. IMO obvs.

[Le Messor]

It's an easy mistake to make. When I first saw Civil War 1 #2 was on there, I thought it meant the second CW mini; then I realised it meant issue 2 of the first. It might not've been 'til I saw Civil War 2 #1 on the list that I realised the mistake.

~ Le Messor
"I no longer need to punish, deceive or compromise myself. Unless, of course, I want to stay employed. "
~ Daily Affirmation

[Phil]

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/09/30/marvel-will-claw-back-marketshare-come-december/

[Yankee]

I liked civil war II issues 1-4 pretty well (again I must be the black sheep on this forum) 5 jumped off the rails.....especially when you taken in the events of Steven rogers cap 5 and cap sam wilson number 12. Nick Spencer turn steve Rogers back to normal all ready!

[Mokole]

Well, Vivaldi was considered mediocre in his time, Salieri (sp?) was a hit, yet time shows who actually did a great job, and sales don't tell much of the real story.

[Tawmis]

Going to throw it out there - I had been a "Marvel Zombie" for over 30 years. I began collecting when I was like 8 years old, when I was introduced to Uncanny X-Men (121) and Avengers (159). While I had heard of DC, and watched the "Superfriends" cartoons religiously in my youth; in regards to comics, DC never, ever, ever caught my attention. I picked up the random issue of Aquaman, from time to time (and by random, maybe one issue ever 2 or 3 years). Around 2000, Marvel began to seriously tank in quality. (It was probably a little before that, but the year 2000 is an easy land mark). I began dropping titles left and right. And got to a point I was barely even collecting anything, except for Uncanny X-Men (even though that was so horrid, I just had such a full run of it).

Then came The New 52. I decided, "It's a fresh start? Let's see how this goes." And found myself actually loving the New 52, because it went back to "basics" of comics. There was no "overly talking bubbles" where it drowns the art. There was no "oh my god, rolling my eyes and the stupid angst." It was back to what I enjoyed about comics - good vs evil. Plain and simple, with a good story flowing between it, without being overly complicated. Just what my simple mind needed. Something to enjoy that didn't tax my brain after a long day of working on computers, 8 hours a day for work. Soon, even Uncanny X-Men fell off my list (a day I never thought would come), while I consumed more and more of the New 52.

Now we have Rebirth - and I have been loving it. I don't see the confusion of multiple universes, that others stated. It's, much like New 52, back to basics of comics. What made comics enjoyable. So far, I collect EVERY SINGLE Rebirth title. Every. Single One. The only one I plan on dropping is Harley Quinn.

Meanwhile for Marvel? I collect Uncanny X-Men again (with Bunn writing it), Spider-Man 2099 (loved the character, and love Peter David's writing), and Nova (because it tied - loosely - to the New Warriors, and turned out to be a rather enjoyable read - for the most part).

Other that the stated above, I can't stand what Marvel has done with their Universe. I keep trying to read more, but I can't. It's not worth the money it costs to be constantly disappointed.

Meanwhile, I admit, Marvel is killing it with movies and Netflix.

[Phil]

I don't see the confusion of multiple universes, that others stated.

There are multiple Supermen, with multiple histories.
There's Kid Flash from one timeline and Flash from another etc.
The Universe is neither pre-52 nor new-52; it's a mash-up of both, and without having read New-52 it's inaccessible to me.


I can't stand what Marvel has done with their Universe. I keep trying to read more, but I can't.
But just because neither you or I are reading/enjoying Marvel titles anymore; it doesn't mean that they're sucking (not your words, just tying back into the original post).

Marvel are absolutely hitting the younger demographic and gaining new non-traditional comics readers.
That's their aim right now.
Us 30+ year old males aren't the focus, and I'm all for that.

[Tawmis]

There are multiple Supermen, with multiple histories.
There's Kid Flash from one timeline and Flash from another etc.
The Universe is neither pre-52 nor new-52; it's a mash-up of both, and without having read New-52 it's inaccessible to me.


But I've not really read _any_ DC other than Aquaman and Teen Titans/Titans (whatever they were called any given month) prior to New 52 (and even Aquaman and Teen Titans was before the new series before the - not the new 52, but where they did 52 issues - one a month - and changed everything - can't even remember what that was called). Anyway - so what I am saying is, I am only "familiar" with the New 52 stuff for DC. But they've done a great job merging New 52 and pre-New 52 to appease the fans that disliked New 52, and to me, have done a good job catching me up and explaining everything without going super into detail and over doing it.

(Not to say you're wrong, mind you, for not being able to enjoy it - merely pointing out, that I am only really familiar with the New 52, and still enjoy the pre New 52 that's been kept in Rebirth).



But just because neither you or I are reading/enjoying Marvel titles anymore; it doesn't mean that they're sucking (not your words, just tying back into the original post). Marvel are absolutely hitting the younger demographic and gaining new non-traditional comics readers. That's their aim right now.
Us 30+ year old males aren't the focus, and I'm all for that.

Other than the incessant need to "make a diverse universe" of making every hero a female and/or of a non-white ethnic background - what I don't understand is, how do you target a lower age audience (other than with books like "Deadpool" and "Squirrel Girl", which are silly books, without much in regards to story, no matter what anyone says!) I mean, it's basic super heroes. How do you make it so that one audience can't enjoy it? (Answer: Bad writing).

[Le Messor]

how do you target a lower age audience (other than with books like "Deadpool"

...
You'd let a kid read Deadpool?!?

[Tawmis]

...
You'd let a kid read Deadpool?!?

The comic? Sure.

The amount of violence shown in Deadpool may be more "bloody" - but certainly no more violent than the Saturday morning cartoons of Road Runner and Will E. Coyote and all the cuss words are "#$%!" - which is what I remember reading as a kid. And look how I turned out.

Okay, well, I am a bad example... but still... :)

[Phil]

I am only "familiar" with the New 52 stuff for DC.
Maybe that's my issue; I'm not.

I'm enjoying All-Star Batman though.
And looking forward to the Wildstorm relaunch.



(other than with books like "Deadpool" and "Squirrel Girl", which are silly books, without much in regards to story, no matter what anyone says!)
I'm genuinely enjoying Squirrel Girl, and I'm not the target audience.
I'm pretty sure Mik and Rob are too.
What's wrong with silly? Didn't a LOT of readers spend time complaining that books were too dark and serious and not silly and fun, in the 2000's?


I mean, it's basic super heroes. How do you make it so that one audience can't enjoy it? (Answer: Bad writing).
But then the reverse could apply; the last seventy years of comics have at times made it so female readers, black readers, homosexual readers etc... can't enjoy comics (and no, not all). A comic you have really enjoyed has a good chance of having offended or excluded someone else.

Just because you don't like a comic, or it isn't aimed at you, it doesn't make it bad writing.


...
You'd let a kid read Deadpool?!?

The comic? Sure.

The amount of violence shown in Deadpool may be more "bloody" - but certainly no more violent than the Saturday morning cartoons of Road Runner and Will E. Coyote and all the cuss words are "#$%!" - which is what I remember reading as a kid.
I personally disagree.
There are bones breaking, internal organs, red blood...

[Sypes]

Aha! Now I know who you are on Twitter! ;)

oh oh... busted!

[Tawmis]

Maybe that's my issue; I'm not.
I'm enjoying All-Star Batman though.
And looking forward to the Wildstorm relaunch.


I am... optimistic, given I've enjoyed New 52 and Rebirth so much, in regards to Wildstorm relaunching. I am curious if they're going to simply disregard all previous continuity and do a clean reboot.



I'm genuinely enjoying Squirrel Girl, and I'm not the target audience.
I'm pretty sure Mik and Rob are too.
What's wrong with silly? Didn't a LOT of readers spend time complaining that books were too dark and serious and not silly and fun, in the 2000's?


Oh, don't get me wrong. :) There's nothing wrong with silly. I just don't care for the over the top, slap stick, silly, which I feel both Squirrel Girl and Deadpool are. But I am in the minority, as a kabillion people love Squirrel Girl and Deadpool. :)

When it comes to comics, I just want the basic good vs evil type story, we saw throughout the 70s and early 80's. Super hero battles, with some character development tossed in there for good measure. Continuity in a book/characters, all remaining intact. Anything other than that, I am not liable to connect it, because of the costs of comics these days (and well, because I collect every-single Rebirth title, so I already dump a lot of money into comics!)



But then the reverse could apply; the last seventy years of comics have at times made it so female readers, black readers, homosexual readers etc... can't enjoy comics (and no, not all). A comic you have really enjoyed has a good chance of having offended or excluded someone else.


But here's what I don't understand. Marvel has HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of characters already. Why make Thor a female? To appeal to the females who want a strong female character? Why didn't they simply use Valkyrie? (Just as an example). And let's be clear, I have nothing against female readers, black readers, homosexuals. As we all (probably know) - most of my favorites are strong female characters: Snowbird, Namorita, Valkyrie. And I have always loved Northstar, and made that clear. :) I just don't understand the need to diversify existing characters into "new" characters to take over their mantles... rather than developing the metric ton of characters, sitting there being unused. (I get it, in the end, because how many people would buy a Valkyrie book vs a Female Thor book? It's all about sales... And I think that's part of it... everything seems like a sales pitch, rather than an attempt to tell good stories... and I am sure there's good stories in these... I tried the female Thor, and lasted about three issues... But I am sure, elsewhere good stories are being told, I am just sad, that it's not with all these other characters sitting around, rather than changing up existing characters, because it hauls in sales... but Marvel is a business... and it needs to make money, it's circular and evil... #EndRamble) :D



Just because you don't like a comic, or it isn't aimed at you, it doesn't make it bad writing.


Well, it does make it bad writing to me. I am not speaking for the whole universe. :)



I personally disagree.
There are bones breaking, internal organs, red blood...

Understood. Different strokes for different folks.

[Le Messor]

I'm pretty sure Mik and Rob are too.

Confirmed! (At least, my half.)


What's wrong with silly? Didn't a LOT of readers spend time complaining that books were too dark and serious and not silly and fun, in the 2000's?

Yep! And SG is such a relief from that. :)


There are bones breaking, internal organs, red blood...

Not to mention the kinds of stories it tells... I'm thinking about the time he goes back in time and murders his own parents, whistling all the way.


the last seventy years of comics have at times made it so female readers, black readers, homosexual readers etc... can't enjoy comics

And Christians! Don't forget us!


When it comes to comics, I just want the basic good vs evil type story, we saw throughout the 70s and early 80's. Super hero battles, with some character development tossed in there for good measure. Continuity in a book/characters, all remaining intact.

I agree with you so much here!

~ Le Messor
"I never saw an ugly thing in my life: for let the form of an object be what it may, - light, shade, perspective will always make it beautiful."
~ John Constable



Why make Thor a female? To appeal to the females who want a strong female character?

[Tawmis]

Not to mention the kinds of stories it tells... I'm thinking about the time he goes back in time and murders his own parents, whistling all the way.


But - there's blood and violence all over comics. Is it just because the ink is colored red so YOU KNOW it's blood that makes it different? (And by you, I mean that in a "wide term" - as in a very general, those who wouldn't let their kids read Deadpool, for example). :)

Remember when Snowbird ripped out Sasquatch's heart? You can definitely see blood. (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HA0ky235Yzc/VNK7Fm3F2tI/AAAAAAAAMg4/KvmqfxcM2C8/s1600/22.jpg) And then there's the story with - who was it? Llan? (Ugh, how did he ever exist?!?) - Where there was an entire city of dead people; dead bodies scattered everywhere (I can't remember the details - but Silver and Auric or whatever were in it too, with Nemesis).

To be clear, not saying anyone's wrong. Just always curious about the "fine line" for comics - where violence becomes "too much." (I mean there's some that clearly, purposely, go beyond the envelope - for example Rob Liefeld's latest Bloodstrike, had a guy's "privates" ripped off... And I remember, in the original Bloodstrike, or Brigade, or it might have been in Supreme - the character Supreme was literally ripping members of Bloodstrike apart - like arms being ripped off and people torn in half... which, I think I'd still let my kid read, assuming he had a firm understanding between reality and comics lol)

[Phil]

I am curious if they're going to simply disregard all previous continuity and do a clean reboot.
I believe it's a clean reboot AND completely separate to the main DC Rebirth Universe.
I may be wrong though.


But I am in the minority, as a kabillion people love Squirrel Girl and Deadpool. :)
I'm not a fan of the Deadpool title. I like the film though.


When it comes to comics, I just want the basic good vs evil type story, we saw throughout the 70s and early 80's.
Statistically though, there's only so many times that particular story can be told.


But here's what I don't understand. Marvel has HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of characters already. Why make Thor a female? To appeal to the females who want a strong female character? Why didn't they simply use Valkyrie? (Just as an example).

(I get it, in the end, because how many people would buy a Valkyrie book vs a Female Thor book?
You've pretty much just answered yourself there :P


It's all about sales... And I think that's part of it... everything seems like a sales pitch, rather than an attempt to tell good stories... and I am sure there's good stories in these...
But you can't tell good stories for free.
Creators HAVE to put food on the table.
Printers HAVE to be paid.
Distributors HAVE to etc.

If the story is the same whether it's a non-recognizable character or a recognizable character if the budget depends on it, it'll be the latter.


I tried the female Thor, and lasted about three issues...
And that's totally your prerogative.


But I am sure, elsewhere good stories are being told
Again, you're using 'good' and 'bad' stories and writing, when you just mean stories that you don't enjoy.


Well, it does make it bad writing to me.
That's a fair compromise.


I am not speaking for the whole universe.
Heh, indeed; nor am I.
Or anyone else. Certainly not Marvel.


Understood. Different strokes for different folks.
Amen to that.


Is it just because the ink is colored red so YOU KNOW it's blood that makes it different?

Remember when Snowbird ripped out Sasquatch's heart? You can definitely see blood. (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HA0ky235Yzc/VNK7Fm3F2tI/AAAAAAAAMg4/KvmqfxcM2C8/s1600/22.jpg) But the majority of the blood is black; as per the Comics Code back then to desensitize.
And then there's the story with - who was it? Llan? (Ugh, how did he ever exist?!?) - Where there was an entire city of dead people; dead bodies scattered everywhere (I can't remember the details - but Silver and Auric or whatever were in it too, with Nemesis).
But they were vague bodies, with less detail and certainly not graphic detail.


Just always curious about the "fine line" for comics - where violence becomes "too much."
Oh, I'm not saying it's too much at all.
I fully support the right for comics to be violent.
As long as they're explicitly marked as such. Which Deadpool is.


(I mean there's some that clearly, purposely, go beyond the envelope - for example Rob Liefeld's latest Bloodstrike, had a guy's "privates" ripped off... And I remember, in the original Bloodstrike, or Brigade, or it might have been in Supreme - the character Supreme was literally ripping members of Bloodstrike apart - like arms being ripped off and people torn in half...
I've seen as brutal, if not worse, in Deadpool comics.


had a firm understanding between reality and comics
I think that the key, and a very sensible one.

[Tawmis]

RE: Wildstorm reboot.



I believe it's a clean reboot AND completely separate to the main DC Rebirth Universe.
I may be wrong though.


I am kind of hoping for that as well. But I am also hoping they go to their more classic look. The recent Cyberforce stuff from Top Cow, I feel lost touch. So I am hoping Wildstorm goes back to the more classic type look and story. But, chances are, they won't. :(

RE: Good vs Evil Stories.


Statistically though, there's only so many times that particular story can be told.


Well, they didn't have a problem telling it from 1940 through 1980. That's 40 years. (The 90's were a little chaotic, to say the least). With the THOUSANDS of characters Marvel has; there should be no problem bringing in new characters, and even telling a somewhat similar "Good vs Evil" story. There's so much untapped potential. The real problem is that they stick to the same characters, and wash them over so much, that they've lost focus. Both writers and characters.

RE: Stories I don't enjoy.



Again, you're using 'good' and 'bad' stories and writing, when you just mean stories that you don't enjoy.


So ... you've never said that something sucks, because you didn't enjoy it? Nothing? Ever? At all? Everything you've ever experienced that was bad, didn't suck, it was just "not your thing"? If so, you're a much better person than I am. (Which may not take much...)

RE: Reign in RED Blood!


But the majority of the blood is black; as per the Comics Code back then to desensitize.


So... if Deadpool were a B&W comic, you'd let your kid read it? Because the blood's not red? It's the actual coloring of blood that crosses the line? :D

RE: Llan the Lameness and the dead bodies


But they were vague bodies, with less detail and certainly not graphic detail.


Am I misremembering? I thought it was pretty "graphic" (in terms of clarity) if memory serves me right...?

[Le Messor]

But - there's blood and violence all over comics. Is it just because the ink is colored red so YOU KNOW it's blood that makes it different?

There are a lot of comics these days I wouldn't show to a kid. It isn't just the colour of the blood, it's the amount of unrelenting, mean-spirited violence in any given comic.
Arbitrary?
Sure, why not. But this is what I would show a kid - not what I think should be out on the stands or what I would tell others to show a kid or not. Even if I express surprise when they do.


RE: Llan the Lameness and the dead bodies

Am I misremembering? I thought it was pretty "graphic" (in terms of clarity) if memory serves me right...?

There are some issues in the Llan saga I wouldn't show a kid.

~ Le Messor
"I might repeat to myself slowly and soothingly, a list of quotations beautiful from minds profound - if I can remember any of the damn things."
~ Dorothy Parker

[Tawmis]

I wouldn't show any of the Llan issues to any kid - or adult - just because it was bad. :)

Which loops me back around to the original topic of the thread ("Marvel sucking right now")... and as always, that's a matter of opinion (one, that I agree with 99%)...

But I was on the CBR forum today - and someone in the Marvel section - in a thread similarly titled to this one said - "DC's Rebirth is just pandering to the readers who want a basic story. I'd rather see Marvel burn to the ground. At least they'd die with their dignity."

And I thought.

They're right. DC Rebirth is giving us the basic stories, which is what I had wanted. I love books/novels. And I feel like that's what Marvel has been doing lately. I get they're trying to tell more "advanced" stories. But for me, in that medium, it doesn't work for me. And that's what it really boils down to me. I totally get why folks are digging Marvel; because they are trying to tell more complex stories. Marvel and DC are both sodas; but Marvel's just not my flavor anymore. :)

[Phil]

Further balance:
http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/36034/marvel-returns-1-comic-publisher-october
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/11/11/marvel-takes-october-2016-marketshare-lead-dc-loot-crate-denies-top-spot/

[Tawmis]

Impressive that they came out on top. I still only get Spider-Man 2099 and Uncanny X-Men from Marvel.

And only (this week) dropped Harley Quinn, Batgirl, and Batman Beyond. All the rest of the Rebirth titles I collect still.