From an old issue of Marvel Age about Bill coming on Alpha Flight.

[Tawmis]

Here is the full Bill Mantlo interview:
One of the biggest surprises of the year is that Bill Mantlo and Mike Mignola, the creative team on THE INCREDIBLE HULK, and John Byrne, writer / artist of ALPHA FLIGHT, are switching assignments.
Starting with HULK #313 and ALPHA FLIGHT #28, John will be bringing you the adventures of Marvel’s anti-social green goliath and Bill and Mike will be chronicling the exploits of Canada’s greatest heroes. We collared Bill Mantlo in the offices one Monday afternoon shortly after we heard the news, to find out what’s in store for the northern stars.

I know it’s a little soon for you to have worked out all your plans, Bill, but can you tell us anything about what’s coming up in ALPHA FLIGHT?

We have a lot of ideas. We’re not sure exactly how soon each idea is going to be put into the process. Essentially, my feeling about ALPHA FLIGHT is that John did a spectacular job.
That’s straight from the shoulder – I think it’s some of the finest writing I’ve read in a long time. But I think you had to read it consecutively. You had to sit down as I did, and read ALPHA FLIGHT #1-20, in order to get a grasp on the organic maturation of his characters. It was extremely difficult to follow what he was doing on ALPHA FLIGHT from issue to issue, because he never really concentrated on the team. He concentrated on individual members and their problems. And after awhile, even I, who read it religiously, lost track completely of who was in the book and who was a member of ALPHA FLIGHT, and what the team was.

Our first job is going to be to pull the team together, to give them a reason for existence, a location, a headquarters. Probably they will be funded by the government.
Whether that is a generous gesture on the part of the government, or whether there is some subterfuge involved in forming this team again, is something that we’re going to develop.
Once they’re held together as a team, they will act as a team. If one of them has a problem, that problem will involve the whole team, instead of specific individual adventures as you’ve seen in the first two years of ALPHA FLIGHT. The whole team will go solve Snowbird’s problem, or find out what Snowbird’s problem is. The whole team will go on a Puck adventure, instead of Puck going off and leaving the team at home.

Some characters will remain, some characters will go. I think John has already dealt with Sasquatch – he will not be returning. Northstar will probably meet his demise, as something from his past surfaces. Snowbird is going to think that she’s dying, but that’s actually a prelude to some major changes in her life and character. A major villain, tentatively called Pestilence at this point, is going to be introduced. I don’t think the book has had a major villain except for the Master. We’re not sure what to do bout Marrina. We’ve got a lot of plans for Box, the robotic member of Beta Flight.
He’s going to be reintroduced.

I want to deal with Beta and Gamma Flight, and Omega Flight, find out who these people are, and . . . Where is the government raising these people with bizarre powers, and what is it raising them for, and what does it mean that now they’re re-funding Alpha Flight? Is it because they’re using Alpha Flight as a control group, or do they want to study Alpha Flight and find the secret to their powers and create new super heroes, or what? We don’t know. That’s all stuff we want to find out.

They will become more closely linked to the Marvel Universe, in that there will be a few cross-overs. There’s already an ALPHA FLIGHT / X-MEN project in the works that Chris Claremont and John Byrne did. We will pick up on elements of that, and may have them meet other Marvel heroes, although not too many.
There’ll be an international sense. The book has been predominantly located in Canada so far, with one or two trips to the United States. But Canada is closer to, say, the Soviet Union or Greenland or Europe than we are, in many ways. You go right over the top of Canada to shoot an ICBM from the United States to the Soviet Union. We’ll probably do stories that deal with that notion of pan-globalism, and how Canada’s tied up with the international scene.

So there’s a lot of ideas – we just haven’t put them into specific stories yet. Guardian will be back, in some form. Not the Guardian you know and love, but . . .
That’ll be a big development certainly. I think that’s where we’re going. In fact, we’re here today to discuss the nuts and bolts of what happens now, to discuss the cross-over where John and Mike and I will actually switch titles, our first issue of ALPHA FLIGHT will hit. Apparently the book is doing remarkably well, and has a loyal following. I’d like to win back people who bought a team book, and then saw it devolve into individual stories, and I’d like to win new readers who might not like super hero books, but are going to find that this is a different kind of super-team book. It’s not THE AVENGERS or THE FANTASTIC FOUR or THE X-MEN. It’s a completely different slant towards telling super hero stories.

[Tawmis]

Here's some stuff I found interesting...

Some characters will remain, some characters will go. I think John has already dealt with Sasquatch – he will not be returning. Northstar will probably meet his demise, as something from his past surfaces. Snowbird is going to think that she’s dying, but that’s actually a prelude to some major changes in her life and character. A major villain, tentatively called Pestilence at this point, is going to be introduced. I don’t think the book has had a major villain except for the Master. We’re not sure what to do bout Marrina. We’ve got a lot of plans for Box, the robotic member of Beta Flight.

He had plans to kill off Northstar about something from his past (probably HIV?)... But that would have been a slow death.
And Snowbird is going to think she's dying? I don't remember this being laid out? (I mean other than her being pregnant)
And Marrina... Well, the folks over in Avengers took care of that.

Interesting that he had "loose" plans from the start to get rid of some members - not by just having them leave, but an actual plan to kill them.



I want to deal with Beta and Gamma Flight, and Omega Flight, find out who these people are.
They will become more closely linked to the Marvel Universe, in that there will be a few cross-overs.

I don't recall any cross overs? Well, other than the Infinity stuff?

There’ll be an international sense. The book has been predominantly located in Canada so far, with one or two trips to the United States. But Canada is closer to, say, the Soviet Union or Greenland or Europe than we are, in many ways. You go right over the top of Canada to shoot an ICBM from the United States to the Soviet Union. We’ll probably do stories that deal with that notion of pan-globalism, and how Canada’s tied up with the international scene.


Interesting that other writers after him did this - with the globe trotting thing (which I never cared for).

So there’s a lot of ideas – we just haven’t put them into specific stories yet. Guardian will be back, in some form. Not the Guardian you know and love, but . . .
That’ll be a big development certainly. I think that’s where we’re going. In fact, we’re here today to discuss the nuts and bolts of what happens now, to discuss the cross-over where John and Mike and I will actually switch titles, our first issue of ALPHA FLIGHT will hit. Apparently the book is doing remarkably well, and has a loyal following. I’d like to win back people who bought a team book, and then saw it devolve into individual stories, and I’d like to win new readers who might not like super hero books, but are going to find that this is a different kind of super-team book. It’s not THE AVENGERS or THE FANTASTIC FOUR or THE X-MEN. It’s a completely different slant towards telling super hero stories.

[Le Messor]

Some of that tells me it was doomed from the start. He didn't understand the characters because he didn't read it at once?
Not a problem for me.

He wanted to take away from the 'Solo Alpha Flight' feel? That was one of the things I loved, one of the things that made the book unique (though I know Mantlo wasn't alone in disliking that aspect).

I think if I'd read that before the change-over, I would've been filled with a sense of oncoming doom.
Now I shall sing the Doom Song... doom-doom, doomy doom doom...

~ Le Messor
"I went to school with a kid who was so smart, the only time he got an answer wrong, they had to go back and change the question."
~ Gene Perret

[Bill P]

Those were some dark years. Waiting years for the team to get back together.

[Tawmis]

When you say waiting for the team to come back together, Bill, do you mean like what - uh, funny enough - Bill (M) said?

About how the original series focused on individual characters - and not a lot of "Alpha Flight" as a team? Or do you mean, after Bill (M) did all that he did - waiting for the Alpha Flight team you knew (the core) to come back together?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Now that the 10 original core members have died at least once, maybe the only thing left to do is give the original characters back to John Byrne...if he wants them.

[Le Messor]

We've all wanted that for a long time, Garry.

... except Byrne...

~ Le Messor
"I wish to preach, not the doctrine of ignoble ease, but the doctrine of the strenuous life."
~ Theodore Roosevelt

[Phil]

Depending on what Gary means, I don't want that.
If Byrne were to 'own' the characters then we'd never see anything of them again...

[Le Messor]

Yeah, I thought of that meaning, but I went with the 'Byrne drawing / writing them again' meaning, because that could be good. Does anybody have the number for 1984 Byrne?

~ Le Messor
"I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once."
~ Ashleigh Brilliant

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Marvel has early Alpha Flight [1979 to 1983]; the Byrne era [1983 to 1985]; the Mantlo era (the longest of era of them all); the Hudnall era (trying to make lemonade out of lemons)...

Marvel has New Avengers # 16, with the whole-sale slaughter of Alpha Flight and Mailman Mike given the "Guardian" suit.

Marvel has "Heather" blasting the brains out of her cousins (volume 4) and "Mac", Aurora, Judd, and Snowbird (!) robbing a bank.

Marvel now has Carol Danvers leading Alpha Flight...

It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that Alpha Flight is already gone.

[maniac mike]

Tawmis wrote,

I want to deal with Beta and Gamma Flight, and Omega Flight, find out who these people are.
They will become more closely linked to the Marvel Universe, in that there will be a few cross-overs.

I don't recall any cross overs? Well, other than the Infinity stuff?

They had the crossover with the Avengers when Namor was going to marry Marrina.

[Phil]

Yeah, in the non-literal sense, more as in Guest Stars there was X-Men in #33-34, Avengers and Doctor Strange in #36.
And as Mike mentioned #39 crossed over with Avengers #272.

[Phil]

Marvel has New Avengers # 16, with the whole-sale slaughter of Alpha Flight and Mailman Mike given the "Guardian" suit.

Marvel has "Heather" blasting the brains out of her cousins (volume 4) and "Mac", Aurora, Judd, and Snowbird (!) robbing a bank.

Marvel now has Carol Danvers leading Alpha Flight...
Personally I don't have a problem with any of this.
I much prefer it to Volume 3 and a lot of Mantlo's stuff.


It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that Alpha Flight is already gone.
Again, personally I'd say that the team is the most alive and prominent than it's been in decades.
I may be in the minority on that though.

[Tawmis]

It's bitter sweet.

So... I am a huge Adam-X fan (initially because he stomped Cable and X-Force in his first appearance), later as clues to the Shi'ar tie in came in (I love me some Shi'ar, especially Deathbird... Er... what was I saying? Oh yes!) So, after Fabian was dropped from X-Men, and after Adam-X got a few more appearances (in X-Force and Captain Marvel)... he vanished into the ether... much to my dismay. Then during the Dark Avengers storyline, he came back for a few appearances - mostly a mockery of himself (way, over the top dialogue, using swords, which he had never done, and doing away entirely with his costume, to a shirt and jeans)... and despite the utter mockery, I was still - somehow - happy to see him. Because it proved that he was a part of the Marvel Universe (despite the push years earlier to bury him). He appeared again (back in costumes) when Juggernaut was given the power of the Norse god of Fear or whatever - and was the only one able to actually cut Juggernaut (though it didn't help - made matters worse, really).

So it's a little like that... despite the slaughtered characterization... you're still kind of happy to see your characters you love being used... even if way out of character... It's like an abusive relationship. It hurts, but you still want more.

[Phil]

Oh it's definitely not that for me.

I genuinely like Volume 4 and think it's the best 'Flight since Byrne.

And I really like the Space aspect and elevated status & respect in Captain Marvel.

[-K-M-]

^ I feel the same way

[Garry/Al-Fan]

At the point of the Hulk/Alpha Flight crossover, Alpha Flight still had a lot going for it: (1) the characters were still likeable; (2) they had common sense, and; (3) they were capable superheroes, if not perfect ones.

That all changed with Alpha Flight #29...quickly!

#29: The Hulk beats Alpha Flight in Roger's lab, then beats them again, in public, in the streets of Vancouver. Jeffries ducks the fight, but Heather doesn't...yet frets about her place in AF be questioned (but doesn't wonder about Michael's disappearance/problem).

#30: So, discounting the fact that (1) Michael Twoyoungmen is a long-time friend and confidante, (2) ignoring the fact that Michael successfully put Judd back together after "Marrina nearly disembowled him" AF[/U]# 2, which is part of the 20 issues Mantlo is quoted as having read], and (3) excluding the fact that Michael treated Aurora's "three cracked ribs" in AF# 27, Heather goes in search of LIONEL JEFFRIES...who's only known medical expertise is turning people into monsters. The whole team witnessed Lionel's medical proficiency; Heather [I]experienced it...as did the doctors, nurses, and patients Lionel transformed.

But no one witnessed Lionel's "restoration to sanity"...not even Madison, because the way it is depicted, Lionel's "healing hands" touched only his helmet, not his head.

#31 The biggest absurdity comes when Madison invites Lionel to "join Alpha Flight" (Mantlo, pg. 4)...when Madison himself wasn't even an official member of the group, yet. Moreover, Lionel had an epic fail in front of AF, the doctor(s), and other real medical professionals when his "healing hands" don't heal.

Meanwhile, Snowbird abandons her search for the only person who knows how to help her: Michael...who, alone in the Northwest Territories, finds a cabin that should be in Banff, Alberta.

#32 "The whole team" does not confront Judd's problem: although Aurora, Northstar, Judd, Roger, and Jeffries do...Heather, Shaman, and Snowbird do not.

#33 Heather in her Courtney-suit goes off, alone..."leaving the team at home." Wolverine and the X-Men guest-star; the rest of AF barely in their on magazine.

#34 Heather in her Courtney-suit, Wolverine, and Judd against Lady Deathstrike and her samurai...the rest of AF not a factor in resolving the problem.

#35 Team can't really help Snowbird without Michael, who successfully completes his spirit tests and (finally) returns.

John Byrne's successors had a golden opportunity to build upon the solid foundation, to utilize the best elements---the elements that made AF both unique and popular---and make the team stronger. Instead, free from any pretense of consistency or plausibility, the creative team(s) were given carte blanche to do what they wanted, and they didn't waste any time.

The goal...the vision...the purpose...was to get rid of original Alpha Flight, yet (somehow) capitalize off its popularity. It is the most cynical approach to sequential storytelling I've ever seen.

[Phil]

The goal...the vision...the purpose...was to get rid of original Alpha Flight, yet (somehow) capitalize off its popularity. It is the most cynical approach to sequential storytelling I've ever seen.

Isn't that what happened when Captain America, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Hawkeye became the Avengers?
When Wolverine, Storm, Nightcrawler and Colossus became the X-Men?

It seems like a pretty standard trope in comics, to me.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I'm actually glad that you brought this up, because in the old days characters were written out of books while as well as characters written into books...without going for killing off character, in mass, in the most wretched, inane ways possible...while pretending to "love" the very characters that they were destroying.

Captain America is (was) a living legend. Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch were reformed villains. They all soon proved themselves to be effective Avengers.

When Dave Cockrum, Len Wein, and Chris Claremont first started revitalizing The X-Men, they were not the most popular kids on the block.

[Le Messor]

It is the most cynical approach to sequential storytelling I've ever seen.

Isn't that what happened when Captain America, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Hawkeye became the Avengers?
When Wolverine, Storm, Nightcrawler and Colossus became the X-Men?

Just because those worked, doesn't mean they weren't cynical approaches! :)
Look at all the Events. :( Look at all the variant covers and gimmicks. Death of Superman. Breaking the Bat. - cynical marketing tools that sell comics.

Of course, if replacing the team was a standard approach by the time Mantlo took over AF, it may not have been simply a cynical ploy.

~ Le Messor
"I was sixty-six years old. I still had to make a living. I looked at my social security check of 105 dollars and decided to use that to try to franchise my chicken recipe. Folks had always liked my chicken."
~ Colonel Harland Sanders

[Phil]

Just because those worked, doesn't mean they weren't cynical approaches!
Exactly my point! It's not unique to Mantlo or AF.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

But, Alpha Flight was supposed to be "a different kind of super-team book."
If the killing of characters as the major direction for comic book creative switch in The Avengers, or The X-Men, or any of the other super-groups, then how does this give Alpha Flight "a completely different slant towards telling super hero stories"? If the "first job is going to be to pull the team together...and (o)nce they're held together as a team, they will act as a team. If one of them has a problem, that problem will involve the whole team, instead of specific individual adventures as you've seen in the first two years of ALPHA FLIGHT..."

Help me out, because in the first 6 months of the crossover, yes they got a (remote) headquarters with one omni-ship and Snowbird gave a brilliant speech in # 29 to galvanize the group, but I'm hard-pressed to see the evidence of them acting as a team. Maybe I missed it.

[Phil]

I haven't once said that Mantlo fulfilled a single thing he set out to, or that it was 'completely different' or that they acted as a team.
I haven't defended his writing or justified what he did to the team.
I've merely pointed out that his results weren't unique and were equally as cynical as other comics. And certainly far less cynical by today's standards.
There would be no point Mantlo trying to ape Byrne's writing.
He took a swing at something different to make his run stand out, and he missed.
There's no conspiracy or crime, and he certainly didn't owe anyone anything; he just didn't succeed.

Yet it's still not the worst run/storyline/use of the characters.

[Le Messor]

Yes, I agree with Phil that the difference between what Mantlo said in Marvel Age and the actual comic is probably more a 'swing and a miss!' than anything; sometimes plans change when you get to actually writing stories.

Though I will say (not as a good thing) they were more of a team under Mantlo than Byrne, because they weren't all solo adventures under Mantlo.

~ Le Messor
"If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you."
~ Francis Roberts

[Tawmis]

See - my problem was the idea of "Let's kill'em off."

You cited Avengers #4 and Giant Size X-Men - in both cases, the team disbanded essentially. No one needed to die. Just in case these characters needed to be used later.

[Phil]

But all the characters from Byrne's run are currently alive and were used after Mantlo's run...

[Tawmis]

Bill skilled Snowbird; and correct me if I am wrong (as I might be), but he didn't bring her back to life.
Rather, he used Walter to take over her body. So he resurrected Walter.
Which is odd, because in that initial interview he says, "Walter is already taken care of" (because he was "dead" at the time).
Snowbird wasn't resurrected till much later, if I remember correctly? Post Bill?
So he killed at least one - and didn't bring them back.
And does anyone think his resurrection of Walter, and how he did it, was a good one?
Unique, sure, but further made Alpha Flight a joke.

[Le Messor]

As I remember it, the resurrection of Snowbird wasn't 'til after Volume 1.

[Phil]

Bill skilled Snowbird; and correct me if I am wrong (as I might be), but he didn't bring her back to life.

Aha, so when you say "Let's kill'em off." you mean that he killed your favourite character off :P ;)
Yeah, he did kill Snowbird, and Bochs, but that's not many for a run of his length.
And I realize Bochs remained dead, so I was wrong when I lumped in 'all the characters'

However, just to point out that I said 'currently alive' - I didn't claim Mantlo resurrected Snowbird. I was just commenting on the revolving wheel of death in comics, and that even if he had killed off every member they'd have been brought back eventually - as they have been.

[Tawmis]

Ah, yes. For the most part, everyone does eventually get resurrected.

I was a big fan of... what was it - the most recent come back that they did? I felt like they all had a little edge to them (Marinna, perhaps a little TOO much, but she had reason to - they all did, I mean - they "died" - and she got killed by her own "husband" at the time) :-)

http://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/1061901.jpg

[Garry/Al-Fan]

The thing is, are the original characters really back?

Aurora/Jeanne-Marie: discounting the yellow/blue eyes of volume 4, the 2006 All-New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe describes Aurora as a "terrorist", first and foremost. It also states her identity as "Secret", although the short, concise entry in the 2010 Heroic Age: Heroes says "identity public."

The two members of (original) Alpha Flight who really shouldn't have their identities public are Jeanne-Marie/Aurora (who is portrayed more as a victim than a superhero) and Heather McNeil Hudson (who comes from a large family).

[Phil]

They clearly are the original characters, yes.

They've just had character development.

Whether it's good development or bad development is a different debate.

With regards to Aurora going public between 2006 and 2010 I'd imagine this would be at the point when she started running her brother's company.

[Tawmis]

Not to mention, how no one made the connection that they're related is pretty insane, considering he was a famous skier... and she looks JUST like him... and they were on the same team as a PUBLIC heroes. :)

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I've been going back through the various versions of Alpha Flight to see if any previous versions of Heather had freckles, since she clearly has freckles from the last page of volume 4 # 1 through the rest of the 8-issue limited series. AF# 0.1: Heather has no freckles. AF one-shot: no freckles. I'm looking over the Mantlo era, which volume 4 is most closely linked to, and...no freckles.

Moreover, volume 4 # 2 repeatedly states "Heather's" family name as "MACNEIL"---a spelling that was predominently used throughout the Mantlo era---whereas the 2006 All-New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe states that Mac/Guardian is married to "Heather McNeil Hudson"....in addition to listing Guardian's identity as "Secret (known to certain Canadian government officials)."

This is minutia, I admit, but where it is clearly the original characters has yet to be seen.

[Le Messor]

The minutia often gets overlooked, and there are far worse examples.
Sigh.

~ Le Messor
"If you are content with the best you have done, you will never do the best you can do."
~ Martin Vanbee

[Phil]

It would make sense for someone with hair as red as Heather to have freckles...

[Tawmis]

Heather, I imagine, should have freckles.

And the spelling error with the name... trust me, that's just bad editors (I don't even know what the editors do anymore... certainly not keep an eye on continuity)... same thing happened with the character Skin (from Generation X)... when he was killed, his name was spelled wrong... it's just lazy checking on the editor's behalf (and writer's, sure, but the editor is there to catch that stuff...)

[Garry/Al-Fan]

According to Alpha Flight #50, in a part of the story that does not seem to be narrated/revealed by Loki, Jeanne-Marie "Baptiste" is the character who is supposedly also "Aurora". Moreover, in a part of the story that is narrated/revealed by the Norse God of mischief, discord, and lies, "Jean-Claude Baptiste" is said to be Jeanne-Marie and Jean-Paul's father...and their mother has a name (at least as told by Loki), but the 2006 ANOHotMU states that their mother is "unidentified."

If there is a comic book or interview that clears this all up, please let me know. I would like to read it.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Loki is a liar, Al. He enjoys messing with people.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Loki is a liar, Garry. He enjoys messing with people.

[Le Messor]

Loki is not a liar. He said so.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I apologize for the double post and for my screw up with your name, Garry. I'll blame it on my meds. My phone isn't letting me edit anything, so again, I apologize.

Dana :(

[Le Messor]

It's not your phone, Dana.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Haha Mik!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

No problem. My thought is Loki was the one who "revealed" the twins origin because he is a liar. Believing him isn't the wisest thing to do.

But that does clarify the contradiction with the ANOHotMU (2006) entry for "Aurora". It would be nice if the folks who actually greenlighted and produced the books would explain some of these things, for a change.