AF Post Byrne

[Phil]

So, there's a vague consensus online that *most* people don't like anything post Byrne.

JB has clearly stated he didn't want anything to do with the team and title, and would have left either way, so feeling free to go into detail, or just vote anonymously, of the two options (and no in between, playing pure hypothetical devils advocate) would you have preferred :

AF had ended with #28 and the characters had never been used or seen again, and couldn't ever again.

or

We have what we have now.

Poll is above.

[Le Messor]

If those are the only two possibilities, the first one. If they're the only two possibilities. (And I'm assuming 'never seen again' means within comics; but I still get to read my #1-28. :) )

But, for clarity, from my side of this: I haven't said I don't like anything post Byrne. There are things Mantlo did that I liked (most of his original characters, for one thing). I love Dreamqueen, and most of Hudnall's run.

What we have now, though? Four Alpha Flight series post v1, and only one has Alpha Flight in it? And that's pure anger?
Treated as a joke (often) by other characters?
Barely used; and when they are, it's by people who've never read an Alpha Flight comic in their lives? (That was aimed at Captain Marvel.)

There have been many good things since Byrne left, but his legacy lies in ruins.
I'd rather end on a high note.

~ Le Messor
"Always leave your audience wanting more."
~ showbiz saying.
"My mother, who got me into this business, told me to make your audience beg for more - and then don't give it to them."
~ Gypsy Rose Lee, a stripper (in a movie)
"Why does the spell check not pick up 'showbiz'?"
~ me

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Le Messor sums it up, succinctly. I'd rather have the original version---the 28 issues---than the stuff that pretended to be ALPHA FLIGHT but isn't.

[Tawmis]

The sad truth is, everything after issue #28 of the original series was a train wreck.
And it all started with issue #12 - Mac's death. Even though Byrne stayed on for another 16 issues, I feel like after Mac died - there was already a shaky ground starting to appear.
So when he left - I feel like he handed the next person a lit fuse and bolted, leaving the explosion for the next writer.
Said writer saw what he was holding and chucked it. Brought in all new characters, and either killed off MORE characters, or just had them disappear, and replaced with his new creations - literal new creations - with no attempts to connect them to Alpha Flight previously (like Beta Flight or Gamma Flight or anything).
By killing off more core characters (now Sasquatch and Snowbird are dead, on top of Mac) - he leaves also.
Leaving a bigger mess for the next writer. Who then tries to take what he's given and run with it. He does. Does some good. But still can't get over the mess.
Now Sasquatch is back, but it's as a woman. In Snowbird's body.
Next one comes along, sees that Mac being dead is the issue - tries to bring Mac back by some wild explanation of being jolted into space, saved by some space aliens, and returned. Now there's a jumble of stories in hopes of trying to save the book by doing a "World Tour" story, and it fails and the story comes to an end with issue #130.
Volume 2 is born, and now Mac is a 19 year old kid - revealed to be a clone. And Sasquatch is an actual Sasquatch. And we get a new team (Flex, Murmur, Radius, Manbot). Volume 2 comes to a painful end.
At some point, all of Alpha Flight is killed off screen in Avengers, or whatever (don't even get me started).
Volume 3, we get some kind of time displaced Alpha.
The Volume 4, we get the members of Alpha Flight, reborn after Chaos War.

I mean... it's a literal mess if you just SKIM the details. Dig deeper and it gets much uglier.

So my answer... I wish it stopped with issue #11.

[Le Messor]

While a lot of it was bad, I think there were a few good things after Byrne left. (I love DreamQueen. I may be biased; I'm wearing a Freddy jumper as I type this.)

But, yeah, that does about sum it up.

~ Le Messor
"I'm living so far beyond my income that we may almost be said to be living apart."
~ Saki

[Sasquatch17]

My first introduction to Alpha Flight was as a kid in a drug store comic rack when I picked up an Issue of Marvel Two-In-One #84 : The Thing and Alpha Flight.

"Holy Crap" there were Canadian superheroes an the Marvel Universe!

Alpha Flight Vol 1 # 1 was an iconic comic for me as the team was together.

Issues #2 to #11 were fine as they added a backstory to the characters.

Issue #12 and the death of Guardian was like a slap in the face and in my opinion began the fall of a potentially great team into a joke.

I was not surprised to read decades later that Byrne never really cared for the team as he just callously offed our Captain America.

Issues #13 to #28 had some good things like the introduction of Talisman, but, then he killed off Sasquatch and then left.

As Tawmis said everything after wasn't the team I read in Marvel Two-In-One #84, just a bunch of incoherent garbage.

I just wanted my Alpha Flight back and see them portrayed as a force in the Marvel Universe instead of a joke or an afterthought or a space station.

[Le Messor]

As Tawmis said everything after wasn't the team I read in Marvel Two-In-One #84

I'm not gonna disagree with either of you on that.
Even in v5, which ostensibly had the same characters, they were just so angry. Anger, anger, anger, and nothing else; they weren't recogniseable.

[Tawmis]

I agree - some good did come post Issue #28.
As you said - Dreamqueen. I absolutely love the idea of Dreamqueen and wish Marvel used her more, since they use Nightmare quite a bit (or did for awhile).
There was also Northstar coming out as gay. I admit, when I first read Alpha Flight in my youth, I was entirely too naive to pick up all the clues Byrne had dropped initially. It wasn't until around issue #30, 40, around there - that I had gone back and was re-reading Alpha Flight, to remember better days - that I had begun to realize what Byrne was saying. Issue #106 with Northstar coming out was great - because it is NOW such an accepted and well known thing for Northstar, and because of the state of our world and acceptance has given Northstar more attention than he would have probably ever got otherwise. So I love that Northstar is sort of the beacon for "gay" characters in the Marvel Universe.

I've not read much in the way of comics these days, I've pretty much dropped everything (I collect two books, both of which are a limited series, ElfQuest and Ragnarok). I know Alpha Flight is in space with Captain Marvel, but I don't know any of the context. I read Hellions #1-4 (strictly for Scalphunter and Wildchild and wasn't overly impressed).

And yes, V5 gave us Alpha Flight that was angry (especially Marinna) - but after the Hell they'd been through - I'd be angry too. :)

And somewhere (on the front page?) - I read Sasquatch is dead (again) and that a new "Sasquatch" is going to appear in Hulk?

Seriously?

[Le Messor]

I'll have you know he's only mostly dead!

I've only read the first (Epic) run of Elfquest - but I just read it in proper order for the first time about a month ago.

[Tawmis]

Damn quote still not working!

Anyway - mostly dead? I would accept that they somehow shove his soul into a Sasquatch from Volume 2 - and that way you have a brilliant scientist within a primal beast. This would also remove Walt from the whole Great Beasts problem. But none of that sounds like something that would happen in the pages of Hulk... despite the irony of this thread, that it was the very story line happening in Alpha Flight at the time (with Issue #28). :D

As for ElfQuest, I would side track this thread since I have an Off Topic: ElfQuest (http://alphaflight.net/showthread.php?9391-ElfQuest-Perhaps-the-best-comic-you-have-never-read) thread on here.

[Le Messor]

Damn quote still not working!
When you see me quoting, I'm manually typing out the html. <quote=Tawmis>Damn quote still not working!</quote> (only, use square brackets.)

When I said 'he's only mostly dead', I was referring to the way in the Marvel Universe, death is a revolving door. ("They should pay me overtime for these do-overs." ~ Death in a Fred Hembeck parody. "Death is but a (revolving) door. I'll be back!" ~ I can never remember; Ghostbusters II, maybe?)
I was also, mostly, just quoting The Princess Bride. As I do.

I haven't read The Immortal Hulk (yet?), so I can't really judge Walt's state of being at the moment, other than to say, no matter how dead he is, he'll be back. (Huh. Just realised I'm saying this two days after Hallowe'en! :) )

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Tawmis, did you change your original post about Alpha Flight? I thought I read a shorter one that was dead on target about what happened being a train wreck in slow motion that couldn't be stopped.

I don't think it went completely off the rails until the Mantlo era, starting with AF#29. Here's why: ALPHA FLIGHT #28 and INCREDIBLE HULK#313 describe the Crossroads as a Nexus of All Realities, where a person caught in it winds up right back where he started from. Kind of an out, if either writer were able to use it. A reset button. Because the ALPHA FLIGHT that appears in IH #313 is slightly different then the one in ALPHA FLIGHT #28. Someone tried to "correct" the short pants/long pants uniform on Pick in AF# 29, but it really doesn't work. Heather's outfit is colored differently in the crossover issues, a discrepancy that one would hope the editor (or the e-i-c) would've taken note of if it were an error. The rest of Mantlo's AF became...dumb and dumber.

My take is this the Mantlo-verse/farce version of Alpha Flight, from one of the various dimensions accessable from the Crossroads.

[Tawmis]

Hey Garry/Al-Fan!
I didn't change my post - it does mention it being a train wreck.
http://alphaflight.net/showthread.php?10683-AF-Post-Byrne&p=106071&viewfull=1#post106071

As a matter of fact, I don't think you can edit posts here, because of the forum issues?

But yes, I think Mantlo was the beginning of the end for Alpha Flight.

Mantlo dealt with ROM and MICRONAUTS, and did all right on those books - because he got to make up the story and continuity. They were clean slates.

I think when he came to ALPHA FLIGHT, he wanted to do the same thing. Get rid of Alpha Flight, bring in his own, unique characters, that had no continuity to worry about and start fresh.

The tragic thing is - up to this point, Alpha Flight didn't even have much of continuity to worry about. A few appearances in Uncanny X-Men, Marvel Two In One, and 28 issues of Alpha Flight, which were all pretty straight forward.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Oh. Must've had a senior moment, then.

The pre-Mantlo ALPHA FLIGHT, IMO, was fairly tight; at least one could say that someone was trying to smooth out the inconsistencies that may have popped up. That can't be said of the Mantlo era.

As for the death of Mac dooming the series, I have a different opinion. Heather gradually steps into a leadership role; Aurora---"altered" Aurora---doesn't hesitate for a moment to help save Walter's soul; same thing for Judd; and Walter had to be a fairly decent and likable person for most of them to venture to the Realm of the Great Beasts to try and save him...with no guarantee of success. Shaman and Roger come through in a big, big way.

ALPHA FLIGHT had a purpose, originally: to protect Canada from unconventional threats, and the original team did that. Perhaps that can be said of post-Byrne era ALPHA FLIGHT, but I can't say it because I don't see it. All I see is a lengthy run that shows no real respect or understanding of the original characters.

[Tawmis]

I am one of the few (only?) people (who are AF fans), who actually did not like Heather in the leadership role. And before ANYONE screams at me that I am anti-women, let me say - I love Storm as a leader, I love Mystique as a leader (of Freedom Force/Brotherhood), I love Valkyrie (strong, powerful woman - from Defenders, not whatever version exists now), I love Namorita (strong female), I loved Mirage (or whatever she goes by) when she was leader of the New Mutants. So, most of my favorite characters are strong females - and some, even leaders themselves. :D

Heather however, I don't felt like it was a progression of her character. I felt like it was forced. And almost as if Byrne was just doing it because - as we would learn years later - he never cared for Alpha Flight - they were just a team he made up to fight the X-Men. So it was a good way to twist that knife and kill Mac, who was their leader, to further shake up the team and give a middle finger to being forced to write them, ever so subtly.

And another thing, for me, I didn't like Aurora "alternating" herself. I actually loved how she and Northstar were twins, looked alike, had similar powers (one was faster than the other, but the slower one could fly longer; small differences).

And what they did with Puck, with the whole Razer thing... Granted, an interesting idea... I just didn't like it. It took away the fact that Puck was a small person all of his life, and said, "No. He was actually normal. He captured this evil presence, that for whatever reason, cut him down in size. Made him a small person." The fact that Puck was a small person made him unique in Marvel, and could have been a great way to write someone who "deals" with that. Like some of what we saw when Puck was fawning over Heather.

There were some ideas I liked - but they were poorly executed. I thought the villain Pestilence was a cool concept. Very fitting of Alpha Flight. But in the end, was just not executed well.

And there were ideas I hated, Walt being in a woman's body. And trying to prove he was Walt.

Would have been fine for a "What If" - but making it canon Alpha Flight? Further complicated and made things messier and messier. :D

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Pestilence and DreamQueen are characters---though not introduced well---that have a lot of potential. James Hudnall (and Hugh Haynes on art) did the best with DreamQueen in ALPHA FLIGHT #67. I like Heather as the behind-the-scenes/I've got your back (vol. 1, #1)/well-connected (knows high-level government official, Frank Hulme, vol. 1, #3)/keeping the group together because she understands the importance of what ALPHA FLIGHT is for (vol. 1, #17) leader more than the E-M suit-wearing, flies-like-a-pro while whining about needing training, friend-abandoning doppelganger from AF# 30 on.

Moreover, the Mantlo era is more than a run that fans have to accept as canon. It is a testament to the quality, commitment, and professionalism of MARVEL, itself. Mr. Jeffries ducking out on the fight with the Hulk in #29 is part of MARVEL's canon. Aurora carrying Judd---225 pound Judd---when she's still supposedly recuperating from "three cracked ribs" in AF#29 is an example of the MARVEL's commitment to continuity. The strongest member on the team, Box, carrying NO ONE shows just how much care and thought was put into the book. These examples (and many, many more) will be part of MARVEL's enduring legacy long after fans who really cares about ALPHA FLIGHT are gone.

[Tawmis]

I will always back up how great I think DreamQueen is.
I hate talking ill of any of Mantlo's work - after all that happened to him, and he passed. But he wasn't good for Alpha Flight.
But others who followed had some (IMO) stinkers - Llan the Sorcerer was one of my least favorite villains - ever. I mean, in comic book history. For his story to his looks. But that was just that - I thought Hundall did fine otherwise trying to clean up stuff.
And then later - I can't even remember the issue - I just recall Silver and Auric were in it - where the town has gone made, and murder and mayhem are happening left and right - the art, the story, everything was horrid - so much so - I can't even recall WHO or WHAT was the villain. (So I suppose that could be worse than Llan for me, since I managed to block out who was behind it).

I feel fortunate we got to have James on our podcast before he passed to talk Alpha Flight...
http://comicreliefpodcast.com/archives/1375

[Sasquatch17]

Tawmis, I didn't like Heather as a leader or the Aurora alteration as well.

I did think the Madison Jeffries version of the Box suit was cool.

[Le Messor]

I can't even remember the issue - I just recall Silver and Auric were in it - where the town has gone mad, and murder and mayhem are happening left and right

I believe it was DreamQueen, fwiw.

[Tawmis]

Tawmis, I didn't like Heather as a leader or the Aurora alteration as well.
I did think the Madison Jeffries version of the Box suit was cool.


It's good to see I am not alone! I didn't mind Madison in Box. I didn't like that they prettied him up just to make him suitable for Heather. I did like Roger in Box too - because how you had someone bound to a wheelchair now in a muscular suit of armor.



I believe it was DreamQueen, fwiw.


Maybe that's why I shut it out? Someone took a great villain and ruined her?

[Le Messor]

I did like Jeffries as a blue-collar ordinary guy. With superpowers.

I think the specific issue is #69, part 3 of Wrath Of The DreamQueen (I just dug out the issue I think it is). That story wasn't the worst, but there were not so great things about it.

[Tawmis]

I think the specific issue is #69, part 3 of Wrath Of The DreamQueen (I just dug out the issue I think it is). That story wasn't the worst, but there were not so great things about it.


Now I am curious what you consider the worse Alpha Flight story (at least for Volume One).

[Le Messor]

I've never given it any thought. When I said worst up there, I didn't mean I had a specific comparison. :)

Probably not a specific story, so much as something that happened within a story - Heather turning psycho; the otherwise okay Bedlam storyline turning Mac psycho. Marrina turning psycho (but that happened in The Avengers).