Gay Characters

[DelBubs]

In comics, I am aware of Northstar from Uncanny, Apollo and Midnighter from The Authority and there was at one time some indication that John Constantine was Bi-sexual. There may be more characters, but is the number proportionate to the number of characters in comics?

[beetleblack]

There's also Shan/Karma in New Mutants (soon to be New X-Men: Academy X) and Vivisector (X-Static).

I don't feel that there are enough gay characters in comic books, but then I'm bound to say that being gay myself. I think things are probably getting better, but if you look at how many characters are in the Marvel and DC Universe there surely should be MORE - if they want to represent society.

Problem is that the general public still see comic-books as being read soley by children - when in truth the average age of comic readers is getting older and older - so imagine the hysterical headlines in the papers if they were to introduce a whole slew of gay characters! In short there would be an outcry :roll:

[beetleblack]

And for those interested here is a link to a great website which lists gay comic book characters:

http://www.gayleague.com/

Scroll down and click on CHARACTERS.

[Puck]

There's Mariko Yashida from Exiles...Phat from X-Statix(Deceased)

[kozzi24]

I voted there are enough. I don't have a problem with gay characters/people, but too often, it just becomes a political issue in comics, and I personally read comics for the escapism.
My only problem with the Northstar revelation issue was the press conference. It seemed contradictory to the character, who had been developed as a close to the vest kind of guy. Think about it. He wasn't open, even with his teammates, and he didn't even have living parents to "protect" from his "lifestyle."
Talking fictional characters here: I can accept it readily with Northstar because (at least before the on-page revelation) he was a multi-facted character who was made most interesting on the Moondragon (hey, she's gay now too!) and Namor principle: being jerks, they make scenes a lot more interesting.
Karma is a good example of what's wrong with gay characters: has she had any type of development since then that hasn't centered on her "lifestyle"?
Northstar was brought to the by Austen X-Men because he was gay. As far as instructors go, the CERTIFIED TEACHER Aurora would have been a wiser choice on Xavier's part, but we didn't see that. And since then, Northstar had been used to potentially bait Juggernaut being gay (Wolverine's earlier reference to Black Tom as Juggernaut's boyfriend). This is the single mindedness that gay characters seem to generate in the writers. Northstar's been in the X-Men title for a couple years now, but Austen has not thought to explore the relationship between NS and Wolverine, Wolverine's most undeveloped relationship with the originals.
My vote for closeted gay characters would include both Cloak & Dagger, Sandman, Baron Zemo and the new Puck.

[beetleblack]

I'd like to see more gay characters but only if they were written well. Maybe it's just Marvel (or perhaps the mainstream BIG comic publishers) who have problems trying to write for gay characters? The DC imprint, Vertigo have always managed to write gay characters well into their books, but then they are aimed at Mature Readers so they don't have to worry about allowing their gay characters have relationships etc.

Btw, I've never read The Authority so don't know a great deal about Apollo and Midnighter - are they written well or not?

[DelBubs]

Btw, I've never read The Authority so don't know a great deal about Apollo and Midnighter - are they written well or not?
Ellis introduced them and wrote them very well in my opinion. Millar being the shock jockey type of writer he is had to do the rape of Apollo by the Commander etc. However on the whole he and Morrison, who's writing Authority now, haven't overplayed the fact that the characters are gay and it's not a big issue.

Even Austen seems to write Northstar very well, unlike the stupid #106 which was sensationalism for the sake of it, no statement being made, no attempt at being PC, just a way to cash in. :x

[beetleblack]

Re: Northstar: I don't know if the character was specifically created gay or just became gay under the various writers. Re-reading the whole of version 1 I see hints from the outset (under Bryne) but not sure if I'm reading more into these hints than were intended.

As for Apollo and Midnighter, I shall have to check them out. Any tips on TPB or issue numbers I should check out?

[kozzi24]

Re: Northstar: I don't know if the character was specifically created gay or just became gay under the various writers. Re-reading the whole of version 1 I see hints from the outset (under Bryne) but not sure if I'm reading more into these hints than were intended.

Hints were intentionsal. Look how Raymonde was drawn, the look of shock on NS's face when Clementine kissed him so passionately because his sister was there.
I am also 98.7% sure that it was stated in a letters page somewhere between 12 and 20, in "crypitcally" answering a letter writer's question "Yes" without stating what the question was.
The hints go back to the 1st appearance in UXM, when Aurora refers to her brother as a fighter, not a lover.

[syvalois]

Re: Northstar: I don't know if the character was specifically created gay or just became gay under the various writers. Re-reading the whole of version 1 I see hints from the outset (under Bryne) but not sure if I'm reading more into these hints than were intended.

Hints were intentionsal. Look how Raymonde was drawn, the look of shock on NS's face when Clementine kissed him so passionately because his sister was there.

It must be an unintentional hint but for those that do not know, Raymonde in french is a woman names. :lol:

[DelBubs]

As for Apollo and Midnighter, I shall have to check them out. Any tips on TPB or issue numbers I should check out?

There are five Stormwatch TPB's, but Apollo and Midnighter don't appear until 'A Finer World'. If you want an idea about what Ellis was doing with Stormwatch, it might pay to get the first three, plus Stormwatch 'Final Orbit' which is basivcally a prequel to 'The Authority' . Then you have four Authority TPB's 'Relentless', 'Under New Management', 'Earth Inferno and Other Stories' and 'Transfer of Power' These cover all but issue #21 of the first vol. There's also a few one offs featuring the Authority plus vol 2 which is ongoing, #10 came out a couple of weeks or so ago.

[beetleblack]

Cheers, thanks for the info, as always you are a mine of information. :)

[beetleblack]

Got hold of a few copies of The Authority today from Another World in Derby (btw, apparently Another World have been bought out by Forbidden Planet!!!!) from a 50p sale box, so will take a look and see what I think. Thanks again for the info.

[Nalyd Psycho]

I'm torn on the issue. On the one hand, it seems only Ellis and Winick can tactfully write a gay character. On the other hand, there is a serious shortage. I think the simple answer is this, publishers and editors should not push gay characters onto writers, but also shouldn't block them in any way. I think writers who want to write them should be able to do a good job. But when it's forced it's more likely to get ugly. But you could get alot of writers doing it for shock still, so I guess editors should step in there. Uggh, it's such a complex issue, I just wish they could be written well and increase the amount, and that'd be that.

[suzene]

I think how well or how poorly homosexual characters are treated in comics is really too complex to answer...sometimes it's enough to simply have homosexuality acknowledged without making a big deal of it -- eg: Elfquest's general "DUH! Of course some elves take same-sex lovemates/lifemates!" -- when at other times, situations like Austen and Lobdell's heavy-handed treatment of Northstar or Millar's borderline degradation of Midnighter and Apollo make me long for the days when same-sex relationships had to be expressed in ways that were, by necessity, subtle and intelligent enough to make it past the editors and so missed by an unfortunately large segment of the readers as well. Really, it depends on the talent of the writers and the policies of the company. Marvel in particular makes me want to puke when it comes to handling the characterization of homosexual men; coming out in the Marvel U is the death of all other characterization...assuming you aren't instantly shuttled off to Limbo before the fundies catch wind of you.

Suzene

[beetleblack]

assuming you aren't instantly shuttled off to Limbo before the fundies catch wind of you.

I seem to remember reading the letters page of - I think - Sandman quite a few years back and someone from a fundementalist group (love the the term 'fundies' btw!) had written in saying how shocked they were that there were gay characters in the book and that they would never buy another comic-book from DC/Vertigo again and they were urging all their members to do the same. In the next few issues there were various letters commenting on this initial letter stating that they felt it was strange that someone with such views would even be buying Sandman to start with!

At the end of the day, the main problem is not that the readership of comic-books are homophobic but that society as a whole is and contains groups with such negative ideas on homosexuality (who are able to get their voices and 'concerns' heard) that is it hard to have gay characters in not only comic-books, but also TV shows, movies etc.

[Nalyd Psycho]

Of course in a world with hit shows like Will & Grace and Queer Eye, I'd imagine it's harder for those groups to have a strong voice. But it may mean they'll lash out at a medium like comics where they can still have a voice.

[HappyCanuck]

... that there were gay characters in the book and that they would never buy another comic-book from DC/Vertigo again and they were urging all their members to do the same...

Ever read the responce letters to AF 106?? (iss 110) Same scenario. Funny tho, even tho the editors tried to argue, in a politically correct way, that they weren't doing anything wrong - ie: weren't PROMOTING homosexuality, but displaying it since it IS part of our society - they still displayed possitive to negative letters in a ratio of 2:3 (roughly)... Not sure if that was the basis of the mail they got, or some sort of subtle way of saying that they DON'T condone it. But' I'm paranoid, so I always read more into things than is actually meant...

[ladymako71]

hmmm? as a slash writer and bi myself I think that portrayal is about equal to the complete lack of. For me at any rate. Most of my gay characters that I do write are not screaming obvious and have lives outside of being 'the token gay'...which is what I saw Chuck Austin do with Northstar pretty much.

Also considering how hell bent Bush is on 'protecting the sanctity of marriage' I doubt you'll see comic books rocking the boat to much until attitudes change...but then I also live in Gayville USA...aka San Francisco. You should have seen the lines around the block of same sex couples waiting to get into city hall and peacefully protest all this silly anti-gay nonsense.

p.s. if he wins a second term I'm migrating to the great white north...

[Northstars Love]

IMO they haven't been portrayed enough. Northie, a gay character, and out for over ten years, as far as I know hasn't yet had a boyfriend. Could be the reason he has such a bad attitude. Sexually frustrated I would imagine. :lol: And why hasn't he had a boyfriend? Probably most likely alienating the male fan base. Sure not all guys are homophobic but to them a superhero is a pro-macho type image and that there can be no "gay" idea in a superhero at all.

Ok, enough rant. Love the Canadian elfin hero. *points to siggy* :wink:

[bigbloo]

Though Northstar hasnt had a publicly acknowledged boyfriend, i know of at least two peopl who may have been his lovers. One is Raymonde Belmonde, the other is that blonde guy who was swimming in his pool the day Aurora called him.

Oh wait, didnt he have some guy in his mini series too?

[syvalois]

I don't have a problem with Northstar not having a boyfriend, because he do not seem like the kind of guy that would open up very easily. Lovers, yes, but to have a boyfriend, Jp would have to open is sheild(or whatever expression is appropriate here) an let someone in is life. Even if he as open up more to others mostly AF members, I still think he do keep his deepest feeling to himself. It's easier for him to be cold and mean than loving.

And even with lovers, I don't see him going around proudly showing is conquest of the day. No, I just see him very quiet, very pivate in is love life.

If northstar fall in love and have a boyfriend, I just see him hiding him for a long time, and the first person that would know about his boyfriend would be Aurora of course, and from there, I guess he would open up a little to others and show is boyfriend.

I don't know why, but I see Northstar as someone that thinks loving someone is almost a weakness. He already been hurt so bad, he do not want people to see him weak and if he lost that love, that can make him weak.

[SwiftFox]

Though Northstar hasnt had a publicly acknowledged boyfriend, i know of at least two peopl who may have been his lovers. One is Raymonde Belmonde

I dunno mayhap he was, mayhap he wasn't. I tend to side with those who say that would make Ray practically a pedophile. I think he helped Jean-Paul discover who he was, and was a strong gay role model and showed him it was okay to be who he was. But I don't think they were lovers. But that's just my opinion. (Although you should be aware that by mutual agreement of all nations on Earth, my opinion is accepted as correct at all times :P)

[beetleblack]

When I read the issues regarding Raymonde I never even considered that he was gay or JP's lover or anything like that!

[syvalois]

can we agree to call him Ray? or Raymond? May I remind everyone that raymonde is a woman name's and that's kind of instulting to gay man to have a woman's name:)

[kozzi24]

By nature of his powers, wouldn't he get bored with one person, a la the guy in the limited series?

I just see him hiding him for a long time, and the first person that would know about his boyfriend would be Aurora of course,
Maybe not. Jeanne-Marie is not approving of his "lifestyle". I would think that her going to bat for him in the limited has put Heather high on the short list of people he truly considers friends, and he would probably open up to her first.

[syvalois]

That's why I said Aurora and not Jeanne-Marie:)

[beetleblack]

I suppose if that Nurse Annie bird's still hanging around with the X-Men he might tell her first? I think they should have a teacher/pupil romance with JP and one of the students at the school - now THAT would probably rock the US! (Marvel of course would not allow it, apparently Austen wanted to make Iceman gay but TPTB wouldn't let him - or at least that's the rumour I recently read.)

[kozzi24]

For once the powers that be were right. Iceman has aggressively pursued women and struggled to hold on to too many girlfriends for that to make the least bit of sense. Darkstar, Polaris, that horrendous Opal chica, to name a few. I really don't remember off the top of my head, but didn't Iceman have a strange reaction to Cloud's change in the later issues of Defenders?
If one of the original X-Men could be, it would be Hank McCoy...always the most equal-friendship, we're not messing around with Jean, and the only memorable galpals were Vera and Trish Tilby. Refined tastes....

[kozzi24]

That's why I said Aurora and not Jeanne-Marie:)

but what one personality knows, the other also generally knows. He has historically been cut off from her for that reason. Personally, I don't think his remark in v1#8 about his assumption that Aurora romanced her way to safety was unwarranted. Northstar's got problems with a lot of people, but I think the problems with the dynamics in his relationship with his sister was Aurora/J-M

[Zach]

I really have no problem with gay characters in comics, as long as the writers don't bog down their character with being gay. None of the straight characters have to constantly make comments about how they are straight, so why should gay characters. I am completely fine with a character being gay, as long as their story doesn't stay on that fact. They should be allowed to grow and expand the same as other characters.

On a side note, I figured out Northstar was gay a long time before I read issue 106. I read vol. 1 in order after reading the first couple issues of vol. 2, and I recall many incidents with his sexuality in question. In his origin issue, the narrator makes a comment about how he never payed much attention to the ladies. In another issue (in the 40s I think), Aurora wants to design Jeffries costume, and Northstar makes some crack about colorful form-fitting outfit, to which she replies "When have you ever objected to men running around in tight clothing."

So, in summary, gay is ok, as long as it doesn't kill a character.

[ladymako71]

So, in summary, gay is ok, as long as it doesn't kill a character.

Agreed, the only problem today is that I guess companies want to look P.C. so they make it painfully obvious a character is playing with the boys (in JP's case for instance) instead of just having a character who is more then who they sleep with...

=/

[Sir John A.]

If one of the original X-Men could be, it would be Hank McCoy...

During Morrison's run on X-Men Hank mentions he's exploring his sexuality and thinks he might be gay....which kinda pissed me off (like how they made the "ultimate" Colussus gay).

There hasn't been any mention of this since.

I don't like it when they make a character gay just for the shock value.

[DelBubs]

If one of the original X-Men could be, it would be Hank McCoy...

During Morrison's run on X-Men Hank mentions he's exploring his sexuality and thinks he might be gay....which kinda pissed me off (like how they made the "ultimate" Colussus gay).

There hasn't been any mention of this since.

I don't like it when they make a character gay just for the shock value.
I know they are a bit overboard in everything else they do, but Marvel should look towards the Authority for hints on how to portray gay characters. I think the majority of people are in accordance with Sir John here making a person gay for shock value, probably irritates straight and gay readers alike.

[kozzi24]

The indication or hints/speculation of an original X-Man being closested all these years fit Hank McCoy much better than it did Iceman, although I don't think it makes too much sense for any of them.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Hank was never meant to be gay at all, even under Morrison's pen. The comment was made to Trish Tilby in a calculated effort to hurt her for her incredibly hurtful (yet very much in keeping with who Trish is) breaking off of their relationship because of his secondary mutation and the effect of it on her career.

On a side note, the hinting of Bobby being gay (when Emma was tooling around in his mind) was done rather well, if you ask me.

[Sir John A.]

DelBubs,

It didn't irritate me that much that the character might be gay.

What ticked me off was that it seemed to me to be a "retcon" of the character for no reason other than shock value.

One other "gay" character who isn't:

Connor Hawke (Green Arrow 2)

Not too long ago he had a chat with his dad and denied he was gay.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Um, people deny that they're gay to their parents every day.

[Sir John A.]

Still, I didn't come across as lying.

Especially when he's lying to arguably the most "progressive" character in the DCU.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Hey, I'm just sayin'. I make it a habit not to read DC... the codenames are just way too hokey for me. :lol:

Besides, different writers have different interpretations of characters (*grumbleMAGMAgrumble*), and that might have been the case here. I honestly don't know.

[Sir John A.]

I think the writers are trying to paly up the "father / son" aspect and felt they had to "macho" him up.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

So what's your take on it? In your opinion, is Connor gay or isn't he? I find it's always best to resort to reader opinion, because a loyal reader will stick with a character through the good times and the bad times, writer-wise.

[Sir John A.]

I think he was gay, but they "retconned" him and now he's just "shy around women" as he says.

[crozack]

I think what people need to understand is that The Authority has been meant from the very beginning to be a dark satirical look at the superhero genre, while at the same time jolt superhero comics out of the slow, plodding pace that they've been in for the last fifteen years. Apollo and Midnighter are obvious knock-offs of Superman and Batman, portrayed as gay to sort of rib the relationship between the two DC heroes. Not to say 'Hey! Look how progressive Vertigo Comics is!' nor 'We at AOL/Time Warner love gays!'.

On the topic of Sandman, the Sandman character is a purely supernatural one, so of course it makes sense within the context of the character and its design. Again, this character was not 'turned gay' for shock value or political correctness. It simply fit him.

What people seem to not understand is that comics aren't here to reflect modern society (a world where kids gain superpowers at puberty, or where a scientist turns himself into a gorilla reflects modern society?). They aren't here to imitate real life (I really hope there isn't a guy like Doctor Doom out there). They're here to give us damn good stories that are worth our money, just the same as movies, books and television shows. Gay characters shouldn't be introduced just because there is a shortage of them. Characters shouldn't be turned gay simply for shock value or as a substitute for character development. That wouldn't be creating a good story.

If a writer wants to create a character, then they need to think about all aspects of the character's personality. Yes, undoubtedly, the question of the character's sexual orientation should be brought up. (John Byrne obviously wanted Northstar to be gay when he delved deeper into the personalities of the original Alphans in issues #1-12 all those years ago.) But if the character turns out not to be gay, hey, whatever. Just make me care about the character and the stories in which they are portrayed.

On a related note, I highly doubt the shows Will & Grace (awful show) and Queer Eye For The Straight Guy (spectacular show) are doing anything for the overall social status of homosexuals in society. What's Happening? and The Jeffersons didn't help blacks, Wonder Woman and The Mary Tyler Moore Show didn't help women, though all the shows I just mentioned were incredibly progressive. Gays in comics are not going to help the overall situation of gays in society, so why should Marvel or DC or Image or anyone introduce gay characters for the sake of being politically correct? (I mean, really, I don't think a bigot is going to sit down for an episode of Must See TV and think at the end of it, "Wow, that Will guy was hilarious! I love gays now!")

Anyway, my overall point is, this is pointless. At the end of the day, whether my comic features Northstar, Rawhide Kid, Karma or Young Green Arrow is irrelevant. Whether the comic was worth my three bucks is.

[DelBubs]

I'm in almost total agreement with your take on what comics are/should be
crozack, however writers have set up the universes in such a way that a
reflection of the real world is almost an necessity. As soon as characters
like Bill Foster, T'challa were introduced, then a reflection of being
African or African American was the next logical step. As soon as Sabre
appeared then being Israeli/Jewish and all that involved had to be explored.

I have no problem with any minority or diversity being portrayed in comics,
but I do have a problem when that diversity becomes the main selling point
of that characters portrayal. I referred to Midnighter and Apollo in the
sense that although gay, gay is the not the be all and end all of their
characterisation. They have many facets and even Robbie Morrisons
Authority, which has been slated, managed to maintain that balance.

Marvel dropped the ball at lot in regards to The X-Men especially. First
off being a mutant was an analogy of the African American struggle for
equality, then with the onset of the Legacy virus, we had the analogy to
A.I.D.S and the ridiculous concept that certain Viruses will only affect
certain people. This of course takes up back to the concept of comics
reflecting real life, no matter how it is dressed up. Marvel explored the
prejudices that mutants suffered due to the legacy virus, but never fully
reflected (IMHO) the full implications of it. If you can't go from A to B,
then you shouldn't set off down that path, to my mind anyways.

In regards to Northstar, Marvel have always used his homosexuality as a
selling point, Austen just exacerbated that with his ridiculous use of the
character in UXM. On the whole, comics should be an escape, but in places
like the DCU and MU I believe that is a target that will never be reached,
any character you care to mention from those universes, will immediately
bear some resemblance to real people. From patriotic Captain America, to
drunken Iron Man. It is how these characters are portrayed by the writer
that will dictate whether totally escapism is possible for the reader.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Your very last paragraph made complete sense to me, Del (not that I didn't agree totally with the rest of it, lol). Just speaking as a gay man who at one time didn't particularly care for comics, and for my best friend, who JUST got into reading comics because of Northstar and the ANADAF, it's nifty IN SOME WAYS that gay characters have become included into comics, because we can relate to certain aspects of the characters. I didn't like Chuck Austen's reasons for bringing Northstar into the X-Men, nor did I care for how he chose to use him once there, but I did like his attitude. It was realistic to me because I know men like that. He made me laugh, and I found myself rooting for him. I'd always liked him in Alpha Flight, but Austen gave him an even finer edge of sardonic, occasionally vitriolic wit, and I liked that. But I like to see characters that I can relate to, at least on some level, and I see a little bit of that in almost every character that I favor.

[Sir John A.]

o why should Marvel or DC or Image or anyone introduce gay characters for the sake of being politically correct?

In the case of the Authority and Rawhide Kid, it became a marketing issue which attracted a lot of media attention.

BTW, Millar in one interview said he made Apollo and Midnighter gay to mess with the minds of "macho" comic book readers who would have trouble dealing with the fact that the toughest and most popular characters were gay.

[crozack]

I'm in almost total agreement with your take on what comics are/should be
crozack, however writers have set up the universes in such a way that a
reflection of the real world is almost an necessity. As soon as characters
like Bill Foster, T'challa were introduced, then a reflection of being
African or African American was the next logical step. As soon as Sabre
appeared then being Israeli/Jewish and all that involved had to be explored.

But, you see, Bill Foster or T'Challa or Sabra weren't introduced as simply a way of saying 'Okay, here are black and jewish characters'. (Yes, in Sabra's case it was for the two-dimensional Contest of Champions mini, but I digress) It was because writers wanted to create a new character in a compelling storyline. Stan Lee, back in his days on FF, wanted to create a foreign, mysterious character to compete with Reed's intelligence. Just so happened that character turned out to be an African king. If Black Panther was in line with society's overall view of blacks at the time, Panther would have been very different.

They also weren't crafted to be reflections of modern society. As I said, all were products of aspirations to good stories.

What I mean to say is, comics can craft good stories without reflecting modern society. But, in order to craft those good stories, it is most often needed to reach the reader themselves, and that means creating something they can relate to. It's why most successful comics are grounded on Earth, and not space or other dimensions.


Marvel dropped the ball at lot in regards to The X-Men especially. First
off being a mutant was an analogy of the African American struggle for
equality, then with the onset of the Legacy virus, we had the analogy to
A.I.D.S and the ridiculous concept that certain Viruses will only affect
certain people. This of course takes up back to the concept of comics
reflecting real life, no matter how it is dressed up. Marvel explored the
prejudices that mutants suffered due to the legacy virus, but never fully
reflected (IMHO) the full implications of it. If you can't go from A to B,
then you shouldn't set off down that path, to my mind anyways.

Actually, I believe the X-Men were originally supposed to capitalize on the idea of being a teenager who couldn't fit in high school (as most comic readers are likely to be, let's admit), but over time, in order to evolve the characters and stories into more entertaining and intense ones, it became an almost racist aspect. Now, again, this isn't to show off purposeful connections to modern society. It is to craft a compelling backstory. Claremont could have kept the X-Men in space (where most of his best stories took place) and the readership still would have kept up due to the strong characters and writing which would keep the reader related to the material.

But I agree that the full potential of the Legacy Virus was not explored. It was the commercial 90s though, so intriguing stories took a backseat.


In regards to Northstar, Marvel have always used his homosexuality as a selling point, Austen just exacerbated that with his ridiculous use of the character in UXM. On the whole, comics should be an escape, but in places like the DCU and MU I believe that is a target that will never be reached, any character you care to mention from those universes, will immediately bear some resemblance to real people. From patriotic Captain America, to drunken Iron Man. It is how these characters are portrayed by the writer that will dictate whether totally escapism is possible for the reader.

Well, I have to say that I felt Northstar was one of those few characters that didn't have that one aspect of his personality played up. In the issues after he came out, he was still kept mercifully the same good ol' Jean-Paul that we know. Same with his appearance in Claremont's second (disasterous) run on Uncanny. It was only in Austen's X-Men that he became an unfortunate shadow of the character Byrne crafted.

Now, in the cases of drunken Tony or patriotic Cap, these are again attributes that make them compelling characters, not so much to do with trying to reflect society. It's just the best way of creating a good story is to ground it in stuff that people will relate to.


BTW, Millar in one interview said he made Apollo and Midnighter gay to mess with the minds of "macho" comic book readers who would have trouble dealing with the fact that the toughest and most popular characters were gay.

You should never take a writer's word for what they meant to write, unless you know for certain he's being completely honest. Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman and Frank Miller are among those that are notorious liars about what they mean to craft, and most writers are. Not because they don't want to tell you, it's that they don't care to tell you. They say what they say in their writing. Read it to figure it out.

That being said, Millar is also a very eccentric writer, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was just trying to get a rise out of the internet community, like Morrison did when he first joked that he really did want to turn the Beast gay.

[DelBubs]

I think in respect to racial/sexual monorities, as soon as they are introduced into a story, then difficulties they face have to be explored to take them beyond the two dimensional. It is how this is done that decides whether the fantasy aspect of the stories is lost to realism. I think in my roundabout way, this is what I was trying to get over.

I'll accept that T'challa, Bill Foster, Sabra etc were not introduced solely for their racial aspects, but that aspect has to be explored, much the same as Nortstars sexual orientation. Northstar unfortunately became a standard bearer and bad writing didn't help him at all. However that said, I think that Northstar has helped in a lot of respect, gay characters are a plenty and their introduction no longer (to my knowledge) causes the hulabaloo Northstars did.

A good example of how a good story can be weaved around a persons ethnic diversity or sexual orientation was seen in New Warriors. Vance Astoviks (Justice) father was gay, but supressed those feelings, because of his father and his racial background. That repression led to turmoil within him and when Vance manifested his mutant powers he took to abusing him. Eventually this led to Vance accidentally killing him. Good writing, which explored how diversity can affect people.

As an aside, I think you will find that Apollo and Midnighter first appeared in Stormwatch vol 2 #4 written by Ellis. Millar didn't start writing them until Authority vol 1 #13.

[crozack]

I think in respect to racial/sexual monorities, as soon as they are introduced into a story, then difficulties they face have to be explored to take them beyond the two dimensional. It is how this is done that decides whether the fantasy aspect of the stories is lost to realism. I think in my roundabout way, this is what I was trying to get over.

I don't think they necessarily have to explore those aspects of their characters, and Black Panther and Northstar are examples of this.

Byrne crafted Northstar brilliantly, but never came right out and said he was gay. And, in today's society where gays are becoming increasingly more accepted, I don't think we need to see Northstar protesting the California Gay Marriage Ban, nor do we need to see him with a boyfriend (actually, his character definitely would not support him having a boyfriend). When Lobdell finally revealed Northstar was gay, most of us in the comic community (yes, most of us, it was only a vocal minority that was upset) were all like 'Oh, yeah, that makes perfect sense'. I mean, Northstar is such a great character beyond the fact that he is gay, so we don't need to focus on it in order to craft an excellent story with him, nor to craft him into a better character.

Whew...did that make any sense? LOL

In the case of Black Panther, Christopher Priest (the best damn comic writer on the planet, and don't let anyone tell you different) crafted brilliant stories that needed to examine the character of Black Panther. Now, he could have crafted the same character he did while keeping Panther out of Wakanda and with the Avengers, but he didn't. Because he saw the brilliant storytelling potential in telling stories centered around the consequences of being the ruler of a successful African country (something that is very unrealistic in today's world) and being a superhero at the same time. It's all about storytelling potential. You can create great characters without having to deal with the obvious issues of race.

We, of course, could see what Panther thinks of the KKK and we could see what Northstar thinks of George Bush but it'd be obvious what they'd think. So, it wouldn't make good stories, nor would it further their characters.


I'll accept that T'challa, Bill Foster, Sabra etc were not introduced solely for their racial aspects, but that aspect has to be explored, much the same as Nortstars sexual orientation. Northstar unfortunately became a standard bearer and bad writing didn't help him at all. However that said, I think that Northstar has helped in a lot of respect, gay characters are a plenty and their introduction no longer (to my knowledge) causes the hulabaloo Northstars did.

As I said, I don't think it has to be explored, but you are correct in saying that writers have to be careful to stick to the characterization.

Northstar's characterization in UXM under Austen was such a damn deviation from his previous appearances (even the ones as recent as Claremont's Eve of Destruction...I think that was storyline Northstar appeared in) it was embarrassing, as I know Austen can create good stories. I mean, Northstar under Austen was such a deviation, it was like some writer taking Black Panther and turning him into a BET-watching, fist-raising, orange soda-guzzling Black militant.


A good example of how a good story can be weaved around a persons ethnic diversity or sexual orientation was seen in New Warriors. Vance Astoviks (Justice) father was gay, but supressed those feelings, because of his father and his racial background. That repression led to turmoil within him and when Vance manifested his mutant powers he took to abusing him. Eventually this led to Vance accidentally killing him. Good writing, which explored how diversity can affect people.

That is a very good example. You see, this story weaves in the social issues into the superhero setting, while also sticking to the already established characterization of Vance, and furthering it at the same time. Now, as I said, it wasn't needed to further Vance's character, as I'm sure there are other ways it could have been done, and we were lucky that this was pulled off so well.

The same thing could be seen in the Black Panther title (really, this title was so brilliant, I encourage any to pick up some back issues). Panther is a black dictator, so Priest weaved in plots that would explore that side of him, though that wasn't needed to get the character to the same place. It just furthered the character, while also giving good stories.


As an aside, I think you will find that Apollo and Midnighter first appeared in Stormwatch vol 2 #4 written by Ellis. Millar didn't start writing them until Authority vol 1 #13.

I never said Millar did create them, and Ellis did indeed create them. I own all of the Stormwatch and Authority issues since Ellis. LOL

[DelBubs]

As an aside, I think you will find that Apollo and Midnighter first appeared in Stormwatch vol 2 #4 written by Ellis. Millar didn't start writing them until Authority vol 1 #13.
I never said Millar did create them, and Ellis did indeed create them. I own all of the Stormwatch and Authority issues since Ellis. LOL

Sir John A. wrote:
BTW, Millar in one interview said he made Apollo and Midnighter gay to mess with the minds of "macho" comic book readers who would have trouble dealing with the fact that the toughest and most popular characters were gay.

You should never take a writer's word for what they meant to write, unless you know for certain he's being completely honest. Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman and Frank Miller are among those that are notorious liars about what they mean to craft, and most writers are. Not because they don't want to tell you, it's that they don't care to tell you. They say what they say in their writing. Read it to figure it out.

That being said, Millar is also a very eccentric writer, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was just trying to get a rise out of the internet community, like Morrison did when he first joked that he really did want to turn the Beast gay.
I think this is where the confusion arose, to my knowledge, Ellis wrote Apollo and Midnighter as gay, Millar just elaborated on that.

Regarding Austens Northstar depiction, I think the thing I found most irksome was the fawning after Iceman plot. Northstar to my mind would never have behaved like that. Austen took a great character, used him for a ridiculous plotline, chucked him into a couple of AF stories and by doing so condemned him to limbo.

Just an Opinion

[kozzi24]

Well, I have to say that I felt Northstar was one of those few characters that didn't have that one aspect of his personality played up. In the issues after he came out, he was still kept mercifully the same good ol' Jean-Paul that we know. Same with his appearance in Claremont's second (disasterous) run on Uncanny. It was only in Austen's X-Men that he became an unfortunate shadow of the character Byrne crafted.
I was confused at first because I didn't remember Northstar in Claremont's seconf XM run. Then I read.
as recent as Claremont's Eve of Destruction...
I know I'm going to get spanked for this, but Scott Lobdell wrote that awful characterization of Northstar, where the character was used only to be gay and give mouth-to-mouth to a homophobe. Scott did have a couple of good bits with the character like the book and the teasing of Jean in rescuing somebody, but it became evident that he was used because he was gay and for no other reason. That's no better than Austen's bit. Think about it: wouldn't AURORA have made a more reasonable choice as a teacher seeing she is, like, you know, A PROFESSIONAL TEACHER? As an orphan who seems to have history of working in a circus and the streets, I have always wondered if Northstar even graduated high school.
I've said it before and will again: in trying to overcompensate for what he saw as 1-dimensional characters, Byrne went all out in making Northstar particularly a well-rounded character. Most of his other elements have been ignored since he came out. In the appearances since AF #130, I can't remembering him being used because he had speed or light powers, only because he was gay (Inserts book in pants) and Scott's just as guilty of that as any of the others.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Good points, Kozzi. But I wonder, would Aurora have been any better of a choice, considering her MPD? I'm not entirely sure that exposing children to dangerous, possibly violent mental instability would be the best thing to do.

Then again, Aurora paying a visit to Xavier at the time that Northstar was drafted into the X-Men wouldn't have been a bad idea at all. If anyone could help Aurora with her difficulties, I would think it would be Xavier.

[DelBubs]

Kinda makes you wonder why AF have never taken Aurora to Xavier. He is the worlds formost telepath and maybe could have made some inroads into solvong her psychosis. That said, it wouldn't leave a lot of plotlines in regards to the lady.

In regards to Northstar, I really cannot see what he could bring to the table as a teacher of young inexperienced mutants, but maybe thats just me.

[Sir John A.]

Kinda makes you wonder why AF have never taken Aurora to Xavier. He is the worlds formost telepath and maybe could have made some inroads into solvong her psychosis. That said, it wouldn't leave a lot of plotlines in regards to the lady

:lol: Good friggin' point! I never thought of that!

[DelBubs]

He did play the psycho mending game with Legion, but a lot of his personalities where malevolent. To my knowledge, all of Aurora's personalities would seem either dependent or subservient. So no real conflict against Xavier.

Whats the betting there's some saddo somewhere, thinking that Xavier could make Northstar no longer Gay. :?

[kozzi24]

If I remember right from Aurora's first shrink visit (AF 7-8) it was stated that her division was so complete that it would be dangerous to try and meld them. This has stayed true for the most part even as other writers have explored the MPD. Wasn't "the division of personalities being so complete" given as the reason for Mac's failure to see the problem when Aurora was brought on board?
Neither personality has ever come across as violent or psychotic. One is too reserved and repressed, the other is too uninhibited and impulsive. The only real enthusiasm for violence was her attack on Director in her last Weapon X appearance; after being brainwashed, scarred, further manipulated and made into some nerd's lover, that was probably somewhat justified. Some people suggested that was a 3rd persona, but I think it was repressed JEANNE-MARIE made VERY angry!
Maybe off panel Xavier has tried; he has to be aware of the problem because of "the gift" in the 1st XM/AF LS. I think it is more likely that both Jeanne-Marie and Aurora have resisted all treatment because each is afraid they would be the personality to go away.
Very good point though, and would make a great character-driven story.
I think "Xavier's" motivation for approaching J-P to teach was to be a gay role model. I guess Sharles Austen/Xavier both forgot Karma.

[Sir John A.]

Whats the betting there's some saddo somewhere, thinking that Xavier could make Northstar no longer Gay

It's been hinted that the "ultimate version" of Xavier might be gay.

[Richv1]

I think there are enough gay characters. But I wouldn't mind if there was more.