What to do with the Originals?

[Fiend28]

I assume at the end of the first arc the Original Alpha Flight so to speak will be saved, what would you do with them if you were writing the book?

I would have James and Heather go home to take care of their kids and have them give their suits to someone new, Could Major Mapleleaf or Centenel benefit from having the suits? Maybe somebody completely new

I would keep Puck around as a mentor to his daughter, and have Earth mover join the team with Shaman as a mentor

Was Snowbird part of the team that was captured in #1? I have no affinity for her so stay on or mentor either is cool with me

[Ben]

Assuming Scott does not get to launch his "Uncanny Alpha Flight" series, all these suggestions would be a great way to use the older members. I don't think there would be any need for the suits to be given to MM or Centennial, they seem to have lots of powers on thier own. The best use would be to keep them in the wings for backup, or auxilery purposes.

Both Judd and Shaman would make good mentors in general, thier combined experiences would be a huge training asset.

Snowbird was indeed part of the team that was captured.
Since Clayton Henry has created a redesigned Snowbird outfit, we can almost assume she will be joining the All New Alpha Flight.

Ben

[beetleblack]

I think it would be interesting to see the old and new teams fighting side by side. However as there would be way too many members, perhaps Heather and Mac should take a back seat and have a more administrative role with the team?

I'm more interested to see if Aurora and Northstar crop up in the new series...

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

I would also like to see the veterans relegated to support roles, with the possible exception of Earthmover, who might make an interesting addition to the new team. Mac and Heather seriously need to leave Alpha Flight and raise their daughter... it should be their #1 priority. Puck, Sasquatch, and Shaman all have other things to do. And as for Narya... she needs to find her way again, now that she has returned to us. She needs to rediscover her purpose.

[Nalyd Psycho]

well, Scott said he liked the flexability of the team, so I suspect that some of the new team may get replaced by the old team. Just as long as we keep Nemesis, Centennial and Major Mapleleaf, as far as I'm concerned, they are new core Alphans.

[suzene]

I think it would be interesting to see the old and new teams fighting side by side. However as there would be way too many members, perhaps Heather and Mac should take a back seat and have a more administrative role with the team?

I'm more interested to see if Aurora and Northstar crop up in the new series...

Honestly, I can't think of anywhere else for Aurora to go! I mean, Northstar has something of a life outside of the superhero gig, but I'm sure Jeanne-Marie has long since lost her job and Madame Dupont's and a team of superpowers who give half a damn about her is about the only crew that could handle the beautiful headcase.

Suzene

[kozzi24]

I'd like to see Heather on the team and Mac the househusband raising the babe.

[beetleblack]

I think that has some potential, plus I was never really a fan of Mac's anyway - IMO he should have stayed dead TWICE (or thrice or how many other times they bought him back alive!).

Btw, I still think that idea of having the baby join the team as the Pacifier in a techno-gadgety nappy (or diaper - depending on which side of the ocean you're on) which allows him/her to fly around and cause all sorts of mayhem and mischief would be a good idea!!! Go on Scott make it happen :wink:

[PWalk]

I say let Michael Twoyoungman retire finally. I'm as big a shaman fan as anyone else but I think he would rock as support figure. THe wise guiding hand from afar y'know.

As for Mac and Heather I'd fully be behind them settling down and playing house. Let Puck or Walt run the team from here on out. The 2 of them can come and go when the team needs someone to sub.

[Nalyd Psycho]

I would be curious as to how Shaman and Centennial would get along.

[Prince]

Yeah Michael wouldn't be the oldest member of the team any more. But yeah I think Eugene and Michael should be support with Snowbird and Walt leading the new team in the field. With occasionally heading to Mac and Heather's house for occasional planning.

[Weapon Omega]

If any of the originals were to return, it has to be Eugene. Puck's been the heart and soul of Alpha. He needs to join the new team IMO!

[Ben]

I would tend to agree, however with Zuzha getting his codename...I'd say the chances might not be so good.


If any of the originals were to return, it has to be Eugene. Puck's been the heart and soul of Alpha. He needs to join the new team IMO!

[DelBubs]

I think Puck, Mac and Shaman should form a RUSH tribute band. Shaman as Geddy Lee :-) That appeals to me.

[Ottawa Renegade]

I think Puck, Mac and Shaman should form a RUSH tribute band. Shaman as Geddy Lee :-) That appeals to me.

...with Bubbles as their guitar tech. :D

[Richv1]

Wel I think James and Heather should be in semi retirement mainly just acting as consultants for the new team. Snowbird and Marrina should rejoin. Them with the new members is enough people for a team. Maybe Earthmover to. Of course the best thing would be if Uncanny Alpha Flight happened so all the characters could be used.
Puck would make a great trainer for new members. With his daughter there we don't really need two Pucks.

[Legerd]

I think Puck, Mac and Shaman should form a RUSH tribute band. Shaman as Geddy Lee :-) That appeals to me.

I guess Mac would have to play drums then since Eugene's legs wouldn't reach the pedals. :lol:

I think Puck, Shaman and maybe even Mac should take on roles as instructors and experts (Mac for technology, Shaman for medicine and magic and Puck for everything else!). Heather should retire to take care of their daughter and to get out of that stupid, nonsensical, no-explanation-as-to-how-it-works green outfit! :x Snowbird and Marrina should rejoin as active members. Earthmover should change his name to Shaman and officially take over for Michael.

[bigbloo]

Heather should retire to take care of their daughter and to get out of that stupid, nonsensical, no-explanation-as-to-how-it-works green outfit! :x


The Geothermal suit! I think it looks cool :) and im loving the way Clayton Henry draws it. I think it would be a bit hard for Heather to just give up an active role and go back to motherhood. It just doesnt seem likely IMHO, i think Heather is the sort that would go nuts if she had to stay home.

Its would be pretty easy to modify the manipulation of the electro-magnetic field that the Guardian suit is capable of so that it can detect and channel magma from underground. The suit was originally designed for mining purposes (Roxxon Oil). Though you are right, it was never explained well in the comic.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Does it really need explanation, though? It's a comic book, and that alone requires some suspension of belief. Besides, the geothermal battlesuit is cool, and it's different than Mac's, which I like. And the green and white (it should only have yellow/gold on the gauntlets and shoulderpads) color scheme complements Heather's hair and eyes very nicely.

[DelBubs]

I'm of the opinion that some more explanation of her geothermal suit is required. Once Marvel opened up the can of worms in regards as to how powers and suits worked (OHTTMU) then people were gonna require reasons why certain things did so and so. Logical explanations also give any series a grounding in reality.

I don't need to know the ins and outs of why Maddy can do so and so, but I would like to know why Bochs never got severely injured when the Hulk destroyed his Box Armour and things like that. Marvel opened the door, I just walked through it.

In regards to the suit, I normally like puzzlers like that, but I'll be ****ed if I can come up with an explanation as to how it actually works. I'm also with the majority (I think it's a majority) who prefers Heather in the Red and White. Keep the geothermal set up, but lose the green and yellow.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

I see your point about the desire to know how the geothermal suit works. It doesn't seem to be all that difficult a concept to grasp, though, at least for me. How was Mac able to use his suit to teleport, exactly? I know he was able to stop his own movement with the Earth's rotation (I think that's how it worked, anyway), but how exactly does one technological suit do that? It's all pseudoscience. And it's the same with Heather's suit. The suit works in much the same fashion as the mutant powers of Magma, one of the former New Mutants, although Magma's ability to manipulate tectonic plates to call forth volcanoes and earthquakes was psionic. Perhaps Heather merely does the same with her suit: she manipulates the Earth's tectonic plates to do what she does with the geothermal suit.

Did the second series ever offer an explanation as to WHY the suit was modified in the first place? If they did, I don't remember it.

Now, as to the colors... I like the colors not only because they complement her look, but also because they give Alpha Flight a little more color. Heather is setting herself apart from her husband, and I like that. But to each his own, I suppose.

As to why Roger Bochs wasn't severely injured because of the Hulk destroying the Box armor... well, Mantlo wrote that. Need I say more? :lol:

[Richv1]

Ok I like Heather in the geothermal suit and it being different in color from Mac's. It sets her apart showing that she is a super-hero in her own right and not just a copy cat. As to how the suit works I don't really care I want to know what it can do, what its powers are.
Like I know a lot of the abilities of Iron Man's armor but I have little idea how it works. Like driving a car I know how to drive it but exactly how it all works I don't know.

[HappyCanuck]

Since I am the one who opened this can of worms, I think it's time I take the advice I get, and start a new thread.

I am a bit different than most comic book readers in that in my mind I NEED to explain peoples powers and whatnot, for it to make sence of me. To most this concept would turn them away from science fiction, for me it draws me nearer (one shrink I had think it ties my analytical mind to my creative mind).

So here's the purpose of this thread: Explain how YOU think these things work, scientifically. You don't need to necessarily explain WHY something work, just HOW.

Let's start with Heather's geo suit:


How was Mac able to use his suit to teleport, exactly? I know he was able to stop his own movement with the Earth's rotation (I think that's how it worked, anyway), but how exactly does one technological suit do that?

Assuming that the technology in Mac's suit is as it is described, and obviously that it CAN do these things, I think I have a plausible explaination for Mac's 'teleportation'. Mac's suit is tied directly into the geomagnetic fields around him (scientific note*: ALL matter has an EM field. Larger the concentration of mass, larger the EM (or gravitational) field. That's why the moon orbits the earth, and the earth the sun). That being said, it's possible that Mac's suit is capable of generating a localised negating field to block out the other fields around him (basing this off of a report that NASA is working on similar models to beter space travel). If Mac can control EM fields to fly, fire concussive bolts and whatnot, it's easy to assume he has found a loophole on this to. Then, it's simple physics: with the gravitational field of Earth and the sun negated, gravity would have no effect on him (rendering him inert to his surroundings), and uneffected by the movement of the Earth. Then, the 'teleportation' effect comes into play (although I'm surprised, given the arcing nature of the world's orbit and it's rotation, that Mac hasn't been slammed into the earth).


It's all pseudoscience.

actually, from Mac's POV, it's pure science. Our problem is, we don't live there.


The suit works in much the same fashion as the mutant powers of Magma... although Magma's ability to manipulate tectonic plates to call forth volcanoes and earthquakes was psionic. Perhaps Heather merely does the same with her suit: she manipulates the Earth's tectonic plates to do what she does with the geothermal suit.

That makes sence, and it DOES work well with my theories, however that doesn't the fact that Heather can fly make sence.


Did the second series ever offer an explanation as to WHY the suit was modified in the first place? If they did, I don't remember it.

As in, why does it differ from Mac's? IIRC, it was because Dept H didn't have Mac's EM suit to build another one (remember, Vindicator III's powers came from the fact he was a synthoid, not really Mac, based off Mac's cybernetic self from Volume 1, and generated his OWN abilities). But they DID have access to Mac's old Geoforming suit, which the Green&Gold suit was based on.


As to why Roger Bochs wasn't severely injured because of the Hulk destroying the Box armor... well, Mantlo wrote that. Need I say more? :lol:

LOL, well for the point of this particular thread, it could be that, while Roger was technically POSSESSING the Box robot, he was for all intents and porpoises actually Box. But it ranks up there (using Marvel's history) with why when Xi'an (Shan) Coy Mahn ('Karma') psychically possesses someone, and that someone gets hurt, why doesn't SHE react similarly? I think that, mentally, for both Shan and Roger, the mind set up a safe-guard seperating them.
_______________________
*All Scientific Notes are meant for those who aren't aware. For many, this is common knowledge. I mean it for those who don't know.

[DelBubs]

Nicely put Alan, but in regards to Box, if he phases his physical form into Box, then either the robot allows him entry by having that good old fallback 'unstable molcules', which if memory serves is the premise Maddy used when designing that particular suit. However it would be nice to know if once phased, does Roger himself become incorporeal as an entity thus not feeling pain, or if his body remains solid, then why no pain as Hulks arm smashed through the shell and must therefore have hit flesh ?

[Richv1]

Well your theory for Mac's suit seems right on I believe that is how it was explained in the comics or close enough. So he doesn't actually teleport he just stops while the Earth keeps moving.
So how did Windshear's costume work? How do you generate hard air?

[Ben]

That is exactly how Mac's suit works indeed. As for Windshear, his suit didn't give him the power, he is a mutant or some such thing. In flashbacks he used his powers without a suit. The suit was designed to help him control his powers. I would assume he wouldn't have been able to be so exact with his powers without it. Kinda like what Cyclops's visor does for him.

Ben

[DelBubs]

Regarding Windshear, I remember him being very good with his powers without the suit, but as he worked for Roxxon, I assumed that the suit was just an adapted M.A.U.L.E.R :?: model that maybe tightend his contol a little, but was mainly there as a disguise and to give him flight capability.

I know he may be able to fly just by using hard air, but can he project hard air with such control that he can manouver the way he can ?

[Richv1]

Ok how does Windshear's suit give him more control over his powers?

So how do those nano machines in Nemesis work? How can a little machine control a person's reactions?

[DelBubs]

Ok how does Windshear's suit give him more control over his powers?
I would guess that much like Turbo's suit, channels are set up within the gauntlets he wears, thus allowing him to concentrate hard air into an offensive beam ?


So how do those nano machines in Nemesis work? How can a little machine control a person's reactions?
That is a very good question :-), why do they stop her attacking Alphans but not enemies, give me a while and I'll see what kinda bull***t I can come up with :P

[Legerd]

[quoteSo how do those nano machines in Nemesis work? How can a little machine control a person's reactions?[/quote]

Since our brains and bodies work using electricity, it would be simple for nanotech machines to attach themselves to Nemesis' nervous system and mess with the signals as they travel along her spine. Other nano machines could go to the parts of her brain where visual input is analyzed (so as to know who it is she is about to attack) and the parts where her emotions and thoughts are generated. They can then detect the electrochemical signals being generated that they have previously been programmed to recognize as being hostile thoughts, and will then signal the machines in her spine to incapacitate her should the people she is looking at be members of AF.

Does that sound believable? :arrow:

[bigbloo]

Not only can nanomachines disrupt the elctrical signals that our brains and nerves use, they can also mess with the chemical signals that the brain uses for communication (neurotransmitters).

Strictly speaking, Nano-machine is a term used for machines that are so small that their parts are individual molecules or atoms. Maybe Walt is talking about a bit of a larger machine, like an artificial virus or microbe which would be few hundred times bigger than nano-machines, where-upon micronbots or micro-machines would be a more appropriate term.

Its pretty much psudoscience, and i think nanobots are a bit of an overkill as a plot device. I mean, if Walt had access to microscopic machines that could modify the way a person acts, then he wouldnt need Nemesis. Or the rest of ANADAF. He could beat the Plodex (and other villains) by just injecting them with the machines and prevent them from being bad.

Of course maybe they could only afford to make one batch. or they are untested and Nemesis is the guinea pig. Or maybe there really are no nano- or micro- machines and Walt is just messing with Nem. :D

[Legerd]

[quote=Of course maybe they could only afford to make one batch. or they are untested and Nemesis is the guinea pig. Or maybe there really are no nano- or micro- machines and Walt is just messing with Nem. :D[/quote]

Now that would be funny! :lol:

[kozzi24]

I cast a vote for Walt messing with Nemesis, and she took him by surprise with her question on harming Alphas in their civvies.

[kozzi24]

During the fight with the Hulk, Box's legs were ripped off. Bochs already had no legs, so, literally (and the first sign of his insanity) laughed it off.

[kozzi24]

The explanation of Windhear's suit giving him refined control of his powers is what I remember.

[kozzi24]

There may be a different reason for Heather's suit, that it is also giving her control of her abilities. What abilities? The thermal earth powers she gained without realizing it when she was exposed to the Terrigin (SP) Mists in the Alpha/Inhumans Annual, although I think I prefer the explanation that Heather gained no powered from the Mists because she is completely flatscan with no mutancy potential/ This would be defined by latent powers their children might have, such as the FF before their spaceflight (remembering Claremont's FF/X-Men Limited) or Cloak and Dagger before the drug injection.

[kozzi24]

Has it occurred to anyone else that since Walter's manipulation of Aurora's mutant signature, that she and Northstar share powers. Northstar's now faster, but seldom generates the light. Aurora's a bit slower, but uses the light more, and in more varied ways. My guess is that the twins are not mutants in the classic scientific sense: one or both of their parents have light and speed powers. I also think, given the unexplored parts of their origins, their might be another triplet.

[DelBubs]

During the fight with the Hulk, Box's legs were ripped off. Bochs already had no legs, so, literally (and the first sign of his insanity) laughed it off.Yeah, very true, but if memory serves, he did have left shoulder :) so unless he was incorporeal then he should have felt the pain when Hulk smashed through the robot. My only explanation for this would be that while inside the bot he is slightly out of synch with this dimension. Kinda like on the outside looking in.

[kozzi24]

I don't remember off the top of my head either, but maybe the damage didn't go deep enough? Bochs had pretty rounded shoulders

[DelBubs]

I think I'm gonna stick with the totally ridiculous concept of the Box Bot being a trans dimensional doorway with the strong Robot aspect in this dimension and Maddy or Bochs in a a ethereal state psionically controlling the bot in the other dimension. That would explain non physical damage to either of them, but some fatique due to psionic backlash. In the first Dream Queen arc after Maaddy has taken out Tundra, we see Maddy as an almost ghost like figure.

That of course beggars the question as to how Maddy who was a ditch digger by trade could come up with the design for such a complex Robot and keep on designing them after Bochs was worm food and could no longer help him ?

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Heather had the geothermal suit some time before the Alpha/Inhumans Annual, though.

[Legerd]

I remember the explanation as being Bochs (or Madison) was phased into the Box armour so his body was immaterial, that's why the Hulk couldn't hurt Bochs' human body when he tore through the Box bot. He did feel pain when it happened, but that was explained as being phantom pain created by his mind's expectation of feeling it after his 'body' was damaged. I don't remember the trans-dimensional doorway theory though, where did you hear that?

[DelBubs]

I didn't hear the transdimensional Box theory anywhere, it's my attempt to explain the whys and wherefores. The body becoming immaterial within the bot would require Bochs or Maddy to be split into any number of atoms, but still remain in control of them and the bot at the same time. Basically in a Star Trek Transporter form while in control of the bot. That works for me, but the complexity of that design after Bochs died would require Maddy to have an understanding of technology to the level of someone like Forge.

[Legerd]

Yeah, there never was any sort of explaination for how Madison, without benefit of any scientific understanding, could create a new set of armour, a spaceship, etc. Maybe his power works somewhat along the line of how Franklin Richard's does, he invisions what he wants, and then uses the material on hand to make it real?

[Ben]

I think it could be safe to say that Jeffries is a very inteligent man, but did not have the oportunity to seek any real education. He also avoided using his gift for years. The time he spent with Roger Bochs could well have tought him quite a lot about mechanics, giving him enough of an edge to create just about anything he could imagine.

Ben

[ladymako71]

According to the little marvel handbook I have, Jefferies is listed as 'gifted' in the brains department. So I think he just might have a natural knack for picking things up easily.

[Richv1]

Sounds good lagerd.
So how would Nemesis's sword do against Captain America's shield? Or Wolverine's claws? Or the Black Knight's Excalibur?

[kozzi24]

Heather had the geothermal suit some time before the Alpha/Inhumans Annual, though.
Right you are

[kozzi24]

I didn't hear the transdimensional Box theory anywhere, it's my attempt to explain the whys and wherefores. The body becoming immaterial within the bot would require Bochs or Maddy to be split into any number of atoms, but still remain in control of them and the bot at the same time. Basically in a Star Trek Transporter form while in control of the bot. That works for me, but the complexity of that design after Bochs died would require Maddy to have an understanding of technology to the level of someone like Forge.
It was described as phasing into the armor, so maybe a protective lock is that the armor had memory of their genetic make up as it had been recorded, and always reverted them to that, thus healing them back to the stored memory. this in fact, would not have healed Bochs from the bends because their would have been memory of what gasses were in his lungs, but not what pressure those gasses were.
This theory can also be used to explain how Jeffries went from pug ugly to the handsome leading man, because he had just programmed a change for his face through.
I think the issues and the handbook are a vicious circle. The handbook has to reflect demonstration awithin the issues, and by the time Jeffries' first compilation was made, Mantlo had subverted Byrne's character beyond recognition. I am more for the idea that he is not gifted, but can just make things work...we can all use computers, but how many of us can write code successfully?
I don't think Alpha Flight formed quite enough of a nurturing environment for Jeffries to reach his potential. When he was forming from Bochs' design and making armor from minerals in caverns, all was fine. One he evolved to spontaneously building FTL spaceships, all was lost.
Such was Mantlo's true problem on the book, that the characters he took to be his own were near perfect to show just how "bad" the original core team was.

[bigbloo]

Sounds good lagerd.
So how would Nemesis's sword do against Captain America's shield? Or Wolverine's claws? Or the Black Knight's Excalibur?

It would probably be able to take anything as longas it wasnt enchanted or made of force. Anything solid can be cut by Nemesis' (the original) sword coz its only an atom's width thick and can slipin between the molecules. So theoretically, Cap's shield and Wolvie's claws are toast.

That is, of course, assuming this is the original and not some cheap copy. :)

[Ben]

Yes, and she was quite shocked when she was duking it out with The Wrecker and her sword did not cut through his wrecking bar. That was a good fight.

Ben

[Richv1]

So Nemesis's sword would not be able to cut Thor's hammer, or the Valkeyre's sword. Would the vibranium in Cap's shield since it keeps the atoms vibrating make a difference since if her sword can cut between the atoms could she if the atoms were moving?

[bigbloo]

So Nemesis's sword would not be able to cut Thor's hammer, or the Valkeyre's sword. Would the vibranium in Cap's shield since it keeps the atoms vibrating make a difference since if her sword can cut between the atoms could she if the atoms were moving?

I dont think the motion would be a problem at all, because atoms are normally in motion all the time anyway. Im assuming the vibranium atoms oscillate more than other atoms, but IMO that shouldn't stop the sword from cutting between them...

[Richv1]

So how would her sword do against say Susan Storms invisible force field?

[HappyCanuck]

So how would her sword do against say Susan Storms invisible force field?

Prolly not much, since her swords good against anything material that's not magic. Sue's force field is composed of pure energy, so shouldn't be affected

[Phil]

So how would her sword do against say Susan Storms invisible force field?

It all comes down to Sue Storm and penetration of her force field in the end.... *sigh*

[Richv1]

So if her sword does not work against magical weapons how does it do against magical beings? Like Sasquatch's body or Shaman's?

[Ben]

I immagine it would all depend on the nature of the magic. If there is magic at work that gives invulnerability, or inpenratability, I would say it wouldn't do much, but just against a body that happens to have magical characteristics would mean nothing at all. The point being it can be stoped items magically enhanced to give them a great deal of durability, beyond that or normal laws of physics.

Ben

[Richv1]

So is the new Puck as agile as the original one? I wonder if she can cartwheel like he did?

[Ben]

*Moderator note*

Inhumans discussion split to it's own thread at: http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=294

[cmdrkoenig67]

I loved Heather as Guardian(and hated that Mac was ever resurrected), But I guess they(being the "parents" of the AF family) should be co-directors of Department H(watching over their baby girl AND their other "kids" in Alpha).

There should be a new Guardian though. It would be good to have Guardian be an established character from one of the series. I would like to see Talisman back too(she's the TRUE next gen mystic for Alpha, not this Earthmover hoser...ick).

I'd like to see Puck and Shaman as teachers/mentors. Snowbird should be on the new team too(which may soon be the case, anyway).

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

I guess when it comes right down to it(for me, anyway).....if you don't somehow include most of the originals in an Alpha Flight book....it won't feel like Alpha Flight(IMHO). The book needs Heather, Mac(since he's alive...again...ugh!), Walter, Narya, Michael and Eugene(and possibly Jean Paul and Jeanne Marie), if it is to survive....but that's just my opinion. I feel they(maybe not all, but most) need to be there, in some capacity.

I felt that way about Volume 2....when the originals showed up at the end...I cheered, but by then it was too late to save the book.

Dana

[Ben]

I think that this book will do just fine with the new members. Scott is characterzing them so well, that they are becoming really easy to warm up to. The impression he gives me, is that he would rather keep newbies on the ANAD AF, and the older member on Uncanny AF, if Marvel lets that go through. I think the best way to see the origonals on a regular basis is to petition Marvel to let the second book come out. Scott suggested as much in his last email.

Ben

[DelBubs]

Didn't Scott say that he's actually put in the proposal for a six part Uncanny AF to Marvel ?

[Ben]

yah, no word back yet I'm assuming. I'm actually not on my computer right now, so I can't check how he worded the email, but it was to the effect that he wouldn't mind seeing some fan support to back him up with Marvel. I'll quot it over when I can.

Ben

[Barnacle13]

I guess when it comes right down to it(for me, anyway).....if you don't somehow include most of the originals in an Alpha Flight book....it won't feel like Alpha Flight(IMHO). The book needs Heather, Mac(since he's alive...again...ugh!), Walter, Narya, Michael and Eugene(and possibly Jean Paul and Jeanne Marie), if it is to survive....but that's just my opinion. I feel they(maybe not all, but most) need to be there, in some capacity.

I felt that way about Volume 2....when the originals showed up at the end...I cheered, but by then it was too late to save the book.

Dana

I kinda see where you're coming from here, Dana, but at the same time Marvel has to update their product to make it fresh for new readers. Thus you get a character like Zuzha who will be very hard for me to relate to until my daughter turns 13 and aliens take over her body. For me Alpha Flight is definitely Guardian (Heather...Mac is still dead where my mind lives), Puck, Sas, Shaman, Snowbird, Northstar, and Aurora. But Alpha is also Persuasion, Talisman, Pathway, Wild Child, Flex, Radius, etc. All of these characters make up what the entity is. Change is good! I think it's important for some of these elements to remain, but new blood is needed in order to survive. I'd like to see a couple of the Volume 2 characters pop back in. Sure they weren't my favorites, but they are part of Alpha Flight forever. I'd like to see a team with Heather leading, Eugene, Shaman, and Mac (yeah the dead guy) in support roles, Sas as the muscle, Earthmover or Talisman as the mystic, Snowbird as the diety, Zuzha as the acrobat, Flex as the Wolverine rip off, and someone has to fly! Maybe MMJ or Northstar or Aurora. That ties all of the eras of Alpha together. Slide Whitman Knapp into a support role also, so he's not lost to the world. Then when the A team goes down there's plenty of folks to go in and save the day. Oh yeah, they gotta get Maddison back , too. Somebody's gotta build transports and repair the stuff Sas breaks! I know this is getting to be a long post, but the point is they are all Alpha Flight and change is needed to keep the team viable. Stories about Sas pummeling things might keep Tonto happy, but eventually the rest of us say. I don't want to see Sas wipe the tundra with another bad guy, how about letting MMJ have a crack at righting wrongs this month. You get the picture. Anyway I'm for a diverse Alpha from all eras. Something for everyone!

Barnacle

P.S. I'm all for new characters like those from Second Flight also. Bellfrey would be a great addition to the team and a great visual to throw next to Sas.

[kozzi24]

I think an Alpha Flight title needs a majority characters generally recognized as Alpha Flight. Neither subsequent volume really had that, although Scott's been teasing so far and it looks like a "generally recognizable" Alpha will be prominently appearing before the first arc's end. That's much better than 18 issues down the road.

Byrne has too often said he didn't understand the appeal of Alpha from UXM 120-1, and I think that is modesty. There was something universally appealing, and in many ways so archtypical in the creation, that the original team inspired so much favor, and, as one-off characters, showed the genious that was the Claremont/Byrne heyday. The addition of Puck especially but also Marrina contributed to the archtyping, but the later incarnations don't have that same universality.

[Richv1]

I still like the idea of having two comics AF and Uncanny AF. And split the two teams between them. Have it so the members are made up of two separate teams but so they can go with the other team if they are needed. The newer members can have a more light hearted comic and the originals a more traditional comic.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I truthfully don't ever foresee an Uncanny Alpha Flight happening, but you never know.

Dana

[kozzi24]

If there were to be two Alpha Flights, I'd rather have the originals keep the name Alpha and the newbies take on another greek-letter name. I'd also rather have specific and different focus for each. Not sure how that should be divided with Alpha, but a 'frinstance with X-Men is that I always thought since they made a second X-Men book that one team should be traditional X-Men (Uncanny appearances, past public doings that might make them less than trustworthy to the general public) and the other should have been a public team looking to dispel fears of mutants. The public team would have consisted of public-friendly heroes like Beast (former Avenger) and Angel (old money is always respected in real-world America)

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Not true in Angel's case, apparently. The public views him as an irresponsible mutant playboy. But that's according to Austen, so it's highly debatable.

[Richv1]

Isn't that what they are doing with Astonishing X-Men they are suppost to be the good guys in the public eye going out and helping people. They are going to try to be looked at like the Avangers or Fantastic Four.
While the Uncanny and New X-men are more in the background and still feared as mutant freaks.

[kozzi24]

I suppose White Queen was never a public enough villain for her to carry a negative impression for the team.
I had kind of figured such a team division since X-Men/New-X-Men/X-Men title came out because I could see no sense in the original subdivision of the teams between blue and gold

[cmdrkoenig67]

I think the team division into Blue and Gold was because there were so many members, kozzi(that's the only logical reason I can think of).

Dana

[kozzi24]

Of course that's why there was a decision...but why those particular members on each team, except for whim of the writers. For instance, Scott and Jean were on different teams.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

The X-Men were originally divided into the Blue and Gold teams in the aftermath of the Muir Island Saga, because there were 14 X-Men at the time.

[Richv1]

I never liked that either with Scott and Jean being on different teams. But now she is dead? And Scott's now g/f the White Queen is on the same team as him. I still find it hard to think of him with another woman besides Jean Grey Summers. And I can understand Wolverine being unpet about Scott being over Jean's death so fast. It is to bad Apocalypse had to make him younger and change his personality which runed his relationship with Jean. Now that she is dead I find it easier to except his being with the White Queen.
I can understand having both Kitty and the Beast on this team as they are both likable characters and if the idea is to have the public like this team they will help. But the White Queen with her personality I don't see how she will.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Of course that's why there was a decision...but why those particular members on each team, except for whim of the writers. For instance, Scott and Jean were on different teams.

Excuse me...I wasn't sure what you meant.

Dana

[Richv1]

So if Alpha gets divided into two color coded teams lets make them White and Red teams. Eh! Red can be the most agressive team while White is the more friendly.

[Phil]

Or just stick with the Alpha/Beta/Gamma format?

[PWalk]

Or just stick with the Alpha/Beta/Gamma format?

Stick with what works. I really dug the whole idea of 3 different levels to the team.

[kozzi24]

Of course that's why there was a decision...but why those particular members on each team, except for whim of the writers. For instance, Scott and Jean were on different teams.

Excuse me...I wasn't sure what you meant.

Dana

Decision of two teams because there was 14 X-Men, but I didn't understand or failed to see any logic in the division of characters between the two teams.
Jeff

[kozzi24]

doesn't Delta Flight have a nice ring?

[Richv1]

But wouldn't having three levels make the members competitive with the higher levels which could cause trouble. Plus why not always send the best team. Would the other teams just be training teams?

[Phil]

I wouldn't say it'd cause trouble.
It just makes sense to have the more experienced members as the main team.
Or just as training staff/liasons.
Take up the whole Dept H mantle.

[Richv1]

So wouldn't the main team over shadow the training team. They would be left in the background. Unless you had two separate comics.

[kozzi24]

I don't really see the potential for much, but any "trouble" could make for interesting stories.
I'm only saying that with franchises, I would prefer for each division--and book title--to have and independent reason for being, not just market saturation.
Maybe Alpha Flight is Canada's premier heroes--the generally recognizable Alpha Flight characters, grouped together or in solo adventures with Beta or whatever title being the training team under Alpha. It could be led in rotation by different Alpha members, depending on the nature of training that leads to the trouble of the given story arc.
Reasons for being: Both sponsored by Canadian government, Alpha being the known heroes that Canada knows it can rely on to get the job done, Beta a public training team with some undercurrent of "making up for the whole (former) government conspiracy thing of Volume 2.

[Phil]

So wouldn't the main team over shadow the training team. They would be left in the background. Unless you had two separate comics.

Not at all.
Furman did a great job of highlighting both Alpha and Beta in his run on Vol. 1, as well as having individuals get their share in the spotlight.

[kozzi24]

So wouldn't the main team over shadow the training team. They would be left in the background. Unless you had two separate comics.

Not at all.
Furman did a great job of highlighting both Alpha and Beta in his run on Vol. 1, as well as having individuals get their share in the spotlight.
100% agreement there, Phil. Simon Furman did a great job in an overcrowded book.

[Mystic]

Of course that's why there was a decision...but why those particular members on each team, except for whim of the writers. For instance, Scott and Jean were on different teams.

Excuse me...I wasn't sure what you meant.

Dana

Decision of two teams because there was 14 X-Men, but I didn't understand or failed to see any logic in the division of characters between the two teams.
Jeff

The logic behind the separation of 'Blue' and 'Gold' for the X-Men was that each one held a different purpose. The Blue team (Cyclops, Wolverine, Psylocke, Beast, Gambit, and Rogue) was geared more towards physical and covert operations. The Gold team (Storm, Jean Grey, Archangel, Iceman, Colossus, Bishop, Professor X) was more of a 'power house' containing the more powerful members of the team.

...At least that's what the descriptions on the back of their trading cards said (X-Men Series 2).

-Mystic

[HappyCanuck]

The logic behind the separation of 'Blue' and 'Gold' for the X-Men was that each one held a different purpose. The Blue team (Cyclops, Wolverine, Psylocke, Beast, Gambit, and Rogue) was geared more towards physical and covert operations. The Gold team (Storm, Jean Grey, Archangel, Iceman, Colossus, Bishop, Professor X) was more of a 'power house' containing the more powerful members of the team.

...At least that's what the descriptions on the back of their trading cards said (X-Men Series 2).

-Mystic

However, also note that those rigid borders were broken shortly after the 'X-Cutioner's Song' storyline (circa X-MEN #15, 1993; the Blue/Gold division was established in X-MEN #1, 1992), showing that - in reality - the divisions don't really work in their own contexts, tho it does keept things in context a little (similar how the Austen/Quitely et al. divisions of NXM/UXM seemed to melt after a few issues - primarily because Wolverine was on both teams (later also on the XXM team simultaneously)).

*sitting idly by, waiting for Logan to have a nervous breakdown from being in at LEAST 4 books simultaneously.*

[Phil]

(similar how the Austen/Quitely et al. divisions of NXM/UXM seemed to melt after a few issues - primarily because Wolverine was on both teams (later also on the XXM team simultaneously)).

Other than Wolverine, I'd disagree with you there.
The two teams were pretty much seperate for a good 2/3 years.


*sitting idly by, waiting for Logan to have a nervous breakdown from being in at LEAST 4 books simultaneously.*

It'll happen right after Batman has a breakdown from being in at LEAST 6 books simultaneously :wink:

[Mystic]

I was a steady reader of Uncanny during the two team break, and found that they kept the two teams rather distinct until almost the Phalanx Covenant, and then the two teams completely dissolved after 'Age of Apocalypse'. So it was a couple of years at least.

As far as Wolverine is concerned, you would think that in one issue of SOMETHING, they would just show him sitting at the X-Mansion saying 'nah...ain't gonna touch this one' and leave him out of it. :)

-Mystic

[Richv1]

So if we divide up the teams like that with the most powerful and the lesser people. How would that work out?
Sasquatch Puck (Eugene)
Guardian Puck
Vindicator Yukon Jack
Centennial Nemesis
Shaman Snowbird

[Phil]

At the end of the day we'll have:

Guardian
Vindicator
Shaman
Snowbird
Puck

as The Uncanny Alpha Flight.

Possibly Northstar & Aurora if they're now free.

Sasquatch
Puck II
Yukon Jack
Centennial
MMLJnr

as the All New All Different Alpha Flight.

With Nemesis if she stays around and feasibly Chuck Moss.

A balanced combo of 7 members on each team. (Snowbird could quite easily take on a huge form to provide the strength for UAF)

Now, we've got all the Vol.2 newbies and the Vol.1 remnants still (minus Wildchild, Jeffries & Diamond Lil who are taken), but I don't think Scott's likely to use these.

[Phil]

As far as Wolverine is concerned, you would think that in one issue of SOMETHING, they would just show him sitting at the X-Mansion saying 'nah...ain't gonna touch this one' and leave him out of it. :)

In Austen's first issue of X-Men (Can't remember the # off hand) he makes a comment to the effect of "You can't expect me to be on ALL the teams!?!"

I've really enjoyed the last two issues of it actually.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

I just read that line-up, Phil, and that is pretty much what I came up with yesterday. Here's what I got.

Uncanny Alpha Flight
Guardian
Vindicator
Sasquatch
Puck
Shaman
Snowbird

New Alpha Flight
Earthmover
Major Mapleleaf II
Yukon Jack
Puck II
Nemesis
Centennial

What do you think?

[Ben]

I think it could be cool to have a mystical team, and a non mystical team. AF has always had a solid connection to the Mystical side. Think about this as a team:

Shaman
Earthmover
Snowbird
Sasquatch
Puck I (Judd)
Yukon Jack (I'm assuming he has some mystical ties)
and Talisman could be brought back.

Shaman as overall and mystical leader, Puck or Sas as tactical/battle leader.

Ben

[Richv1]

For the magical team maybe we could bring back Witchfire. Why Puck (1) though with his inner Demon gone is there anything still magical about him?

[bigbloo]

I kinda liked the way Witchfire's characterization was going, up until the time she sprouted goat feet... Then i felt it went kinda overboard.

Id assume its because Puck has a lot of experience handling mystical threats, not necessarily because he has mystical abilities.

[kozzi24]

I kinda liked the way Witchfire's characterization was going, up until the time she sprouted goat feet... Then i felt it went kinda overboard.

Id assume its because Puck has a lot of experience handling mystical threats, not necessarily because he has mystical abilities.

I liked Witchfire enough, but didn't think AF needed another mystical character in general, and the book was very crowded at the time. I was always for turning her villain.

Puck handles EVERYTHING well. If you think about his character, he really is a great person. Best example is that he's never really liked Walt, but always worked with him well enough, and had the loyalty to stand by him during the Volume 2 business.

If Spider-Man's creed is with great power comes great responsibility, Puck's is, "being a member of the human race is great power, and we're all responsible for each other.

[Richv1]

I've always like Eugene (Puck) he is a down to earth guy. Someone a normal person can relate to. He has a nice playful personality at times even though hes old eighty years old. Plus he still has a positive outlook on life even though he has suffered a lot of pain.

[kozzi24]

Maybe the constant pain he was in always helped keep his perspective of stopping to smell the roses and seeing the good in everybody.

[Richv1]

Yep when life treats you like Hell you appricate the smaller nice things in life all the more.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Please don't start throwing bricks at me, but I've got to say this...How many All New, All Different Alpha Flight's are we going to see before we finally get to see the originals again? We're currently reading the second attempt at the All New, All Different approach and I'd rather see the REAL All Old, All Exactly Who Their Supposed to be Alpha Flight, then see them rot in limbo(or in supporting character hell)...but that's just me.

I love, love, LOVE the original team and there are still a lot of stories to be told with them....new characters are fine, but a glut of them with every relaunch is a bit too much. I just want the originals back. The bad sales and cancellation of Volume II should have been a sign to the Marvel Powers That Be, but they don't appear to have learned anything from it....cause here we are again with a whole buttload of new unfamiliar characters and a sad("lets all laugh at those Alpha Flight buffoons") premise(which really doesn't sit well with me).

Again...maybe it's just me....I miss Guardian(Heather...maybe Mac too, I guess...if he HAS to be alive again... :roll: ), Puck, Snowbird, Shaman, Northstar, Aurora....even Talisman, Madison Jeffries, Diamond Lil and Marrina....Wildchild(whether as villain or hero), Flashback(just because he disappeared, it doesn't mean he's dead), Box(Madison or whoever)....even Sasquatch and Nemesis can be kicking around(LOL). If I pick up an issue of Alpha Flight...I want to see this group....they need to be in a book called Alpha Flight, NOT a spin off book.

Dana

Again...no bricks please....I'm just venting to avoid impending explosion. Love to all.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

As much as I looooooooove Mapleleaf, Dana, I actually agree with you. But I do have to say this: I really hope that they don't do an Uncanny Alpha Flight book. Why? Simple. Sales will drop on one or the other if focus on Alpha Flight as a whole is split between two books. Alpha Flight, as it stands now, already isn't doing all that well. It's a variable that we just don't need. So essentially, I don't mind having things stand now the way they are, but I do agree that we should see more of the Alpha Flight that the longtime fans know and love. And Manbot. I would like to see Manbot. :D

[kozzi24]

Please don't start throwing bricks at me, but I've got to say this...How many All New, All Different Alpha Flight's are we going to see before we finally get to see the originals again? We're currently reading the second attempt at the All New, All Different approach and I'd rather see the REAL All Old, All Exactly Who Their Supposed to be Alpha Flight, then see them rot in limbo(or in supporting character hell)...but that's just me.

I love, love, LOVE the original team and there are still a lot of stories to be told with them....new characters are fine, but a glut of them with every relaunch is a bit too much. I just want the originals back. The bad sales and cancellation of Volume II should have been a sign to the Marvel Powers That Be, but they don't appear to have learned anything from it....cause here we are again with a whole buttload of new unfamiliar characters and a sad("lets all laugh at those Alpha Flight buffoons") premise(which really doesn't sit well with me).

Again...maybe it's just me....I miss Guardian(Heather...maybe Mac too, I guess...if he HAS to be alive again... :roll: ), Puck, Snowbird, Shaman, Northstar, Aurora....even Talisman, Madison Jeffries, Diamond Lil and Marrina....Wildchild(whether as villain or hero), Flashback(just because he disappeared, it doesn't mean he's dead), Box(Madison or whoever)....even Sasquatch and Nemesis can be kicking around(LOL). If I pick up an issue of Alpha Flight...I want to see this group....they need to be in a book called Alpha Flight, NOT a spin off book.

Dana

Again...no bricks please....I'm just venting to avoid impending explosion. Love to all.

No bricks.
Just agreement.
100% agreement.
The original team can easily (and well!) be done with the same tongue in cheek humor, and there's so many stories that can still be told.
I wouldn't mind a u-decide format. Relaunch this ANADAF title with #1, the same month as a #1 of AF with the originals, and if he's in Limbo anyway, that should include Northstar. The first arc can be a search for Aurora and full of the bickering of this group of adults who work together, and work together well, but admittedly don'y all like each other.
My sole complaint of SL's original run was how Puck and Sasquatch both seemed kind of chummy with Northstar. i.e.: Sasquatch calling him "the kid." Sasquatch would be calling him "Frog Legs", not "the kid." I do concede that Eugene probably likes Northstar more than he likes Sasquatch, though!
No bricks, Dana.
Just agreement.
100% agreement.

[Ahab]

No bricks, Dana.
Just agreement.
100% agreement.

Can't agree 100% as I'm actually enjoying the new series, but definitely no brick-throwing coming from this direction. I like the idea that there would be more heroes to join the ranks of what is called Alpha Flight, which on and off has been Canada's version of the Avengers. Look how many members they've had! The unfortunate side of it is that Avengers has a large fan base and has been around a long time. They can risk changing the membership around. I agree that it was a surprise to see yet a new version of Alpha Flight when the second series was composed of predominantly new characters and it didn't make it. I fear that the same is going to happen with this series, due to how fickle the market is. Let's face it - if the comments made on the Internet are really a true indication of what the average comic fan is like anymore, it's in a sad, sad state right now. Too many people are quick to drop a series before the story arc is even completed! What the heck do they expect from one issue? Instant euphoria and addiction? Give me a flippin' break.

Ahem. End of rant...

[kozzi24]

Let's face it - if the comments made on the Internet are really a true indication of what the average comic fan is like anymore, it's in a sad, sad state right now.
I don't think it is. People seem more willing or more of a need to vent the negative feelings and opinions, sometimes constructively, sometimes not.
It also becomes a matter of glowing positive discussions don't last as long. An ongoing negative conversation will also allow people having a bad day or mad at work or spouse or whatever to get online and easily start spewing their internal blackness at people/situations that have nothing to do with their personal problems.
On the Beetle's "Do I CURSE...?" thread on "Other Comics," the new forthcoming X-Force is being hit with disfavor. Maybe someone will post "I like this." They will be greeted most likely by silence, and possibly by "To each his own, but that's really bad!" I've chimed in on that too, so it's an observation, not a criticism. I keep from trolling by not giving more than one general negative comment. I'll discuss specific details that I found wanting more, particularly in defense of thrown bricks, but I don't think anyone needs to reiterate dsomething that in their opinion just "sucks"
Not many people have been all that bad here, but the forum shows the same. Look back at the boards on the five issues that were out. The stronger and better issues in general have had fewer and shorter conversations than the issues the people have found fault with.
That's just human nature. It's like any story. If all the characters are happy, the story is boring. The positive threads burn out faster, so you see more of the negatives.
At the end of AF Vol 2 after the cancellation was annopunced, they said in the letters pages that all the fans that liked AF should have spoke up sooner.
Or simplify it the weather: WHAT A NICE DAY. "Yes, it is." PAUSED SILENCE, CHANGED CONVERSATION.
""What a miserable day!" ISN'T IT! "This rain sucks." AND IT'S COLD. "It seems like it's been raining for weeks!" RUINED ALL MY PLANS YESTERDAY....
That's just human nature. It's like any story. If all the characters are happy, the story is boring. The positive threads burn out faster, so you see more of the negatives. People are more inclined to say something negative.

[gorejeja]

I want Alpha Flight to be a ridiculously large team with a healthy mix of old and new, and every story arc, the roster changes slightly so that Alpha's sending in the best team they can send in the best team possible. This means that during a story arc, there'd be the Super Hero crap goin' on as the main story, and as a break from all the action, we could see character development amongst the charas not on the mission. (did that make sense? I'm listening to Strong Bad Sings and trying to figure out how to spell "fhqwbugads" as I listen to the song and type this simultaneously.)

[Richv1]

Well I do agree I like the originals better. But this new is growing on me. I am kind of disappointed those Alphans that they were going to rescue turned out to be Plodex. So what happened to the real ones than? And why were we shown Snowbird hanging there?

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

My guess is that Alpha Flight is still strung up to the Plodex machinery, and Snowbird was shown in the final panel because of the perspective/angle from which we were viewing the new Alpha Flight. I'd wager that they're all still there.

[Richv1]

Thats what I'm kind of hoping. If the Alphans are found and rescued it will be interesting to see what Scott actually does with them.

[kozzi24]

Look close on the last panel. The things binding Snowbird are coming loose.

[kozzi24]

My gruess is that Snowbird will join the newbies, Puck will be lost or join the newbies, Mac & Hether will leave Walt in charge to concentrate on their baby and Shaman will go off to train Moss.

[Richv1]

And what about that cute Plodex baby girl? I hope she grows up fast into a beautiful young woman.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I hope I didn't sound too negative....I seriously wasn't trying to. It just gets me down, thinking the bulk of the original team may well be shunted into limbo once again(Aurora and Northstar are in limbo part-time, at the moment...I don't want the others to join them).

Dana

[SwiftFox]

And what about that cute Plodex baby girl? I hope she grows up fast into a beautiful young woman.

Personally I thought it was a boy....

[beetleblack]

Yeah, I thought it was a boy too - isn't he the same character we saw as a figure/piece at the end of issue one on the 'Mousetrap' (Alphatrap?) board game?

Thing is we NEED Marrina back AND Northstar and Aurora!

Surely the Marrina plot is the longest running plot thread ever - we know that Marrina is in stasis aboard the Master's ship or something, so why don't Marvel put us out of our misery and free her!

[Richv1]

Maybe it is just me hoping that it is Marrina I want her back. I want two Alpha titles. I want a whole line of Alpha titles.

[Ahab]

(Aurora and Northstar are in limbo part-time, at the moment...I don't want the others to join them).
Dana

The latest is that Northstar is in the hands of the New X-men writers. They are big fans, so although he isn't going to be a major character, they'll treat him right and at least give him some air time. Better than being in limbo!
With Weapon X cancelled, who knows what is going to happen to those Alphans. At least it would be relatively easy to free up most of them. Aurora was seen leaving. The Director has gone insane so hopefully Jeffries' brainwashing will wash off in time. Wild Child disappeared with the Weapon X compound, but that could easily be explained away as him not being there when it happened. Diamond Lil could have escaped when Neverland was deserted. All in all, I think they could all be easily used with little explanation as to why they are ok.

[kozzi24]

I'm hoping that Frank Tieri gets the chance to wrap up most of his subplots or at least passes detailed notes on to Scott so that he could work Tieri's intentions into his own plans.

[Richv1]

Well I certainly hope someone does something with all those Alphans running around. They should all migrate to Toronto and it could become the New York of Canada where all the super-heroes hang out.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

I don't think Aurora has a place on an active team right now. She needs to get her head together first. She's been through a LOT of trauma in Weapon X, and needs to come to grips with that first. I don't think it's a good idea to slap her onto Alpha Flight just because she's a fan favorite. It would be a fiasco, at best.

As for Madison, I think he should find Lil and SETTLE DOWN already. If he really loved her, he'd respect her desire to build a life away from Alpha Flight.

Just my two cents.

[Richv1]

I agree with you about Madison and Lil' he should be the tech guy for the team and not a field operative.
Aurora though I want her on the team with her brother.

[cmdrkoenig67]

The latest is that Northstar is in the hands of the New X-men writers. They are big fans, so although he isn't going to be a major character, they'll treat him right and at least give him some air time. Better than being in limbo!
With Weapon X cancelled, who knows what is going to happen to those Alphans. At least it would be relatively easy to free up most of them. Aurora was seen leaving. The Director has gone insane so hopefully Jeffries' brainwashing will wash off in time. Wild Child disappeared with the Weapon X compound, but that could easily be explained away as him not being there when it happened. Diamond Lil could have escaped when Neverland was deserted. All in all, I think they could all be easily used with little explanation as to why they are ok.

Will they treat Northstar right? I doubt it....he's become a shadow of who he used to be(under Austen)...and now reduced to little more than a supporting character. I find that rather sad.

Dana

[Richv1]

Wel that is why Northstar should be brought into Alpha Flight so Scott Lobdel can treat him right. And bring him back to his former glory or better.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

I think they'll treat him right in New X-Men, but he won't get a lot of exposure. I actually prefer him teaching to working with Alpha Flight, because it lets us see a different side of JP than we're used to, and he'd be wonderful to help play a coming-out story in the pages of New X-Men. I'd love to see it.

[Richv1]

Do you really think they will have a coming out story?

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Honestly, no. A friend of mine pointed out to me that the two openly gay X-characters kinda got "lost in the shuffle" during Reload: Northstar and Karma. Also, the rumored-to-be-gay Victor Borkowski, a student in New Mutants/New X-Men: Academy X, also disappeared.

[Richv1]

Well I think it is to bad they can not openly discuss or show people with a different life style. Understanding others is what makes it easier to get along with them.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I think MARVEL should publish some of the ideas that the fans have, like
"I remember" by Michael Dillon.

[cmdrkoenig67]

So far...Northstar has been ignored, neglected...and oh look...they've killed him and resurrected him as a zombie ninja....Do you folks still think he'll would be treated right in the X-books?

Dana

[Richv1]

Yep now we have two Northstars. Over in Alpha Flight we were left with a younger version. And they have the present one to. Will Marvel handle either one correctly? How would they react if they met?

[-K-M-]

Yep now we have two Northstars. Over in Alpha Flight we were left with a younger version. And they have the present one to. Will Marvel handle either one correctly? How would they react if they met?

Hit on each other? *shrugs*

[HappyCanuck]

Yep now we have two Northstars. Over in Alpha Flight we were left with a younger version. And they have the present one to. Will Marvel handle either one correctly? How would they react if they met?

Hit on each other? *shrugs*

Ew. JP may be egotistical, but I don't think he's THAT bad.

[Richv1]

Hit on each other but wouldn't that be able the same as if it was your own brother?

[-K-M-]

Hit on each other but wouldn't that be able the same as if it was your own brother?

Naaaa...if you masterb....you know, it doesn't make it incest. It's just very creepy and wrong. There was a funny SNL skit about that

[Richv1]

Ya but normally when you masterbate its one person only now if there are two people thee even if they are the same person. It is creepy.

[-K-M-]

Ya but normally when you masterbate its one person only now if there are two people thee even if they are the same person. It is creepy.

Indeed, but it is you so technically still you doing it. Just like how in Austin Powers old and young No.2 have sex. I think it's more creepy than anything, but hey what a person does behind close doors is their bussiness...even if it is creepy business

[Richv1]

I think I would find this topic more interesting if it was Aurora with her younger self. I find that a much more pleasant picture. :o

[Ben]

*ahem* G-rated folks ;)

Ben

[-K-M-]

I think I would find this topic more interesting if it was Aurora with her younger self. I find that a much more pleasant picture. :o

Indeed:)


*ahem* G-rated folks ;)

Ben

Come on make it at least PG-13:)

[Le Messor]

Just like how in Austin Powers old and young No.2 have sex.

I've never seen that scene. There's bits of it in, like, the closing credits and outtakes and stuff, but I've never seen the whole thing. Is it in the US version, or are you referring to the outtakes?

Also, JP is so egotistical, he'd either love himself or hate himself. If one of him kills the other, is that murder or suicide? If JM wanted to commit suicide again, would that be a hostage situation?

- Le Messor
"Don't knock masturbation. It's sex with someone you love."
- Woody Allen

[-K-M-]

Just like how in Austin Powers old and young No.2 have sex.

I've never seen that scene. There's bits of it in, like, the closing credits and outtakes and stuff, but I've never seen the whole thing. Is it in the US version, or are you referring to the outtakes?



It is from outakes and deleted scenes, you peice things together. In on scene the young number.2 is in his underwear and the older won is wearing makeup a dress and a wig

[Richv1]

Now with an old and young version of the team around plus the all new and improved version why did Marvel create so many Alphans now if they are just going to sit in limbo?

[birdygirl]

Great question, Rich, and one I have had issues with for years.

It seems every time AF gets its own book, new characters are introduced, and then, after the book is cancelled, the newbies are forgotten.

Then, the next time an AF book is introduced, instead of reviving the previous characters, another new team labeled "Alpha Flight" is introduced, while the "new characters" introduced in the previous book are never mentioned again. There are indeed many AF characters that we've seen only a few times, never to be seen again. Too many to count.

There's a scene at the end of the "Alpha Flight Special" of May, 1992 that inadvertantly illustrates this best: As Sean Benard walks away from the barn after leaving Hudson, there is a HUGE portrait of all the characters who had ever joined Alpha Flight up in the sky behind him. HUGE. Even without the subsequent characters who joined, (Flex, Radius, Centennial, Yukon Jack, Zuzha, etc., etc.), the numbers are awesome. Yet, most of these characters are never heard from today. I agree, why introduce them at all, and then do nothing with them?

[Richv1]

Yes I agree there are so many I would love to see Persausan and Ghost Girl in a limited series. Marvel needs to use these characters and other Aphans. Ghost Girl was hardly seen yet she was a fantastic character.
Puck even by himself if handled right could be a great regular series with other Alphans popping in once in a while.
Why doesn't Marvel use these characters?

[-K-M-]

Why doesn't Marvel use these characters?

because they are not from a team with an "X" in their name

[Richv1]

Well than the "X" eventually will become used to much and die down and than what will replace it?

[-K-M-]

Well than the "X" eventually will become used to much and die down and than what will replace it?

Well I think it's pretty obvious....

http://www.goingfaster.com/shadow/superpro.jpg

[Legerd]

Puck even by himself if handled right could be a great regular series with other Alphans popping in once in a while.

Puck would be great in a solo book! I wish someone would pitch it to Marvel. Adventurer, thief, spy, superhero... you would think a character with such a storied past, before he even became an Alphan, would be an easy sell.

[Ben]

I like that idea, but always thought a Puck/Sasquatch book would be the best. These two have always had a great dynamic together. It would be like the old Thing/Human Torch books, but better!

Ben

p.s. is that your tattoo in the new avatar Legerd? Is it new? I'm an ink fan.

Ben

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I second unusual combinations, like Puck and Aurora solving a mystery/crime, or even Northstar and Sasquatch having to team-up for some reason (maybe to find Aurora?).

Can't think of a new trio right now other than when the team was split in UXM# 139-140 (Shaman, Snowbird, and Vindicator) and Machine Man# 18 (Aurora, Northstar, and Sasquatch).

[Weapon Omega]

I would completely support a Puck mini or ongoing. He's was and IS the heart and soul of Alpha Flight, in my humble opinion. Team him up with one or two other Alphans, get a great creative team behind it, it could be a great story!

[cmdrkoenig67]

Sigh....I just want the originals back in the title(Alpha Flight, of course) they should be in.,,period.

Dana :(

[PWalk]

I'd like to see a "Stories of Department H" limited series where writers can fully flesh out what goes behind the closed doors there. You could have it told through the eyes of a retired janitor on his death bed recanting all he had seen in his years working there.

Comics don't necessarily need action in every issue so long as the story is well written.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Sigh....I just want the originals back in the title(Alpha Flight, of course) they should be in.,,period.

Dana :(

The real Alpha Flight is James/Guardian, Shaman, Walt/Sasquatch, Puck, Snowbird, Talisman, Aurora, Northstar, Marrina, and as the power-behind-the-throne, Heather. Everybody else are pretenders.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Well said, Garry! Whooo-Hooo!

Dana

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Department H is supposed to be this super-secret branch of the Ministry of Defense, yet it builds a 66-story headquarters, granted in the woods, but a structure so big and conspicuous that it's got to be noticeable by campers or park rangers or anybody who isn't blind. Second, the Epsilons take down Heather and Puck in public [AFV2# 1], and sure everybody's memory might've been erased but who's going to repair the wrecked restaurant? Third, the Weapon X's turn out to be fiasco's; how long will true bureaucrats vying for funds allow Dept. H to keep sucking money down a pit that creates more threats than it combats?

Added 7/2/05: Unless Red or Black Epsilons are "coercing" the other Ministries to stay out of Defense business, which seems likely and logical given the criminal nature of the volume 2 incarnation of Dept. H.

[HappyCanuck]

Department H is supposed to be this super-secret branch of the Ministry of Defense, yet it builds a 66-story headquarters, granted in the woods, but a structure so big and conspicuous that it's got to be noticeable by campers or park rangers or anybody who isn't blind.

Actually, Dept H itself isn't supposed to be a secret, just the work it does. Hell, originally, it was supposedly being built in downtown Toronto! (AF.1.90)

[Le Messor]

Second, the Epsilons take down Heather and Puck in public [AFV2# 1], and sure everybody's memory might've been erased but who's going to repair the wrecked restaurant?

Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones, obviously.

- Le Messor
"Decisions terminate panic."

[Harfang]

en France on se sait pas ce qu'est devenu la division alpha a part vega qui est prof chez Xavier c'est plutot frustrant :x
on essaie avec les francophones europeens de faire en sorte de l'editeur (panini) sorte quelques revues mais c'est pas gagner :?

j'vais parler en francais sur ce forum apres tout Alpha Flights est canadienne et doit prendre en compte la communauté francophone :lol: non mais !!! on aime nos cousins du Quebec en France !! tout comme on aime nos cousins cajuns !!

[syvalois]

en France on se sait pas ce qu'est devenu la division alpha a part vega qui est prof chez Xavier c'est plutot frustrant :x
on essaie avec les francophones europeens de faire en sorte de l'editeur (panini) sorte quelques revues mais c'est pas gagner :?

j'vais parler en francais sur ce forum apres tout Alpha Flights est canadienne et doit prendre en compte la communauté francophone :lol: non mais !!! on aime nos cousins du Quebec en France !! tout comme on aime nos cousins cajuns !!

C'est juste que tu te mets un doigt dans l'oeil si tu pense que être canadien veut dire bilingue. Mais, je te comprend et quand j'ai quelque chose Ã* dire, je vais le faire. Ça fait déjÃ* 1 personne :P

[Harfang]

ben je comprends pas trop votre systeme federal vu que la France n'est pas une federation mais vous (les canadiens meme si j'aime pas trop mettre les quebecois et le reste du canada dans le meme sac) devez bien prendre en compte tout ce qui fait la particularité de votre pays non? :?: un peu comme la Belgique et puis sans le Quebec le Canada serait un petit pays :lol: (en nombre d'habitant je parle ! )
Je vulais juste dire que le Canada est aussi Francophone donc je vois pas pourquoi je devrais parler anglais !! lol :lol:

[Ben]

ben je comprends pas trop votre systeme federal vu que la France n'est pas une federation mais vous (les canadiens meme si j'aime pas trop mettre les quebecois et le reste du canada dans le meme sac) devez bien prendre en compte tout ce qui fait la particularité de votre pays non? :?: un peu comme la Belgique et puis sans le Quebec le Canada serait un petit pays :lol: (en nombre d'habitant je parle ! )
Je vulais juste dire que le Canada est aussi Francophone donc je vois pas pourquoi je devrais parler anglais !! lol :lol:

Oh, you don't have to speak english if you don't want, the forum is primarily an english forum, but you can speak whatever language you want, I just can't guarentee that many people will respond. Consider that we have over 200 members, and probably less than half (without doing a count) are Canadian, and maybe 50% of those have some understanding of french, and probably 20% feel comfortable reading french, and 10% feel confrotable writing it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about "our federal system considering France is not a federation"

And I DO like to lump Quebec in with the rest of Canada. I consider them a very important part of our country, both historically, and in present times. I want Quebec to stay as a part of this country, and as a proud Canadian, am honstly somewhat insulted at the desire of the separatists to leave the country. I think Quebec deserves to be treated as a culturally distinct part of Canada, as do the members of the Fist Nation. Now this is WAY off topic, if there is desire to continue this converstion, I will split it into a new thread.

Ben

[Harfang]

you're right but it's so hard to speak english even if i prefer to be understood by a large people but i'm not Cypher
c'est vrai que j'aimerai etre compris par les anglophones mais en France l'etude de l'anglais est vraiment baisque on cherche pas vraiment aapprendre cette langue mais plutot a etendre la notre

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Actually, Dept H itself isn't supposed to be a secret, just the work it does. Hell, originally, it was supposedly being built in downtown Toronto! (AF.1.90)

I've been trying to understand what you mean before posting a reply, but I haven't been able to figure out if Dept. H's work isn't so secret [capturing Heather and Puck; creating a bio-hazardous "Weapon X" that goes renegade; getting its own headquarters blown up/having Zodiac wreck it], how is anything about Dept. H secret?

AFV1# 13 indicates that Dept. H was supposed to be very secret. To support this, Canada's own media could only identify Alpha Flight as a Canadian strike-force in MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE# 83.

....but who's going to repair the wrecked restaurant? Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones, obviously. - Le Messor

8) I hadn't even made a connection between Alpha Flight's Agent K and MIB. You guys are goooood!

[Legerd]

If taken to be like CSIS then Dept. H isn't a secret organization but an organization that deals in secrets. IMO it is the 'face' behind which the other sections (like Dept. K) hide.

I would guess that JB originally wrote it as a secret section of the government and that later writers brought it out of the shadows.


I hadn't even made a connection between Alpha Flight's Agent K and MIB. You guys are goooood!

Damn! Get someone in here and wipe his memory, NOW!

[Le Messor]

The Dept H in 1 #1, the H in v1 #120, and the H in v2 were three different entities. The huge, obvious headquarters was built late in v1, before they got -so- secretive. (But after the equally secretive, but less conspirational, v1#1 version.)
The Dept isn't secret. Its work is.

- Le Messor
"You think everything's a conspiracy."
"Everything is."
- The Abyss

[PWalk]

Who would buy a book called "Department H"? Think about all the stories a writer could come up with through that.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Who would buy a book called "Department H"? Think about all the stories a writer could come up with through that.
Instead of taking another gamble on reviving ALPHA FLIGHT outright too soon, a "Department H" mini-series might be a very good idea. Many loose ends and frayed plot threads could be explored from volume 2, which a lot of people like (sorry, but I'm not one of them). Depending on the sales, it could be the springboard for a new AF series or mini-series. This could be the mini-series that brings AF back.