Greatest AF Guest Appearance?

[Phil]

Opinions please?

[kozzi24]

Marvel Team-up #7

[Phil]

For what reasons?

State your case, promote your choice, fight for your decision!!!

[DelBubs]

Marvel Two in One #83-84

[Phil]

Del, why do you think MTIO #83-83 is better than MTU Annual #7, and than all the other guest appearances?

[DelBubs]

Del, why do you think MTIO #83-83 is better than MTU Annual #7, and than all the other guest appearances?
Where do I begin.

First of the fight between Sas and The Thing. Sas in his full pomp, not looking like a chump and nothing definite said about who was better or stronger.

Secondly the Thing sitting drinking tea in the Hudsons front room and bemoaning the fact that he was used to working with professionals. Given that the geezer works alongside the FF in a technological wonder and has lived in the same enviroment at Avengers mansion, yet was sitting in a front room on a sofa planning a strategy. Kinda epitomised peoples perception of the two countries ways.

It also epitomised Alpha, reluctant heroes who don't embrace their powers, but accept that cos they have them they have to protect the weaker.

The fact that when theirs a problem with radiation problems, Walt is one of the first mentioned as an expert in the field.

The argument between Northstar and Aurora. Re-inforcing their two totally different ways of thinking, Northstar (the in it for my sister, jerk) Aurora the fun loving woman who see's danger as just another adventure.

It being shown that the great Shaman wasn't infallable, that even the most reliable make mistakes.

The battle scenes, Vindicator lobbing a car, Sas holding up the building, the reporters voice commentating and mentioning Alpha as an unknown Canadian task force.

Finally Walt not being able to do nothing for Bill Foster. Human interest and proof that there isn't always a happy ending.

So that's good story telling, good characterisation and none of that normal taking the piss out of Alpha.

Marvel Team-Up Annual #7 pales alongside, AF as a foil for Spiderman, non of the above. Reasonable story which doesn't even make me wanna waffle like I did above :-)

[kozzi24]

Team-up 7:
AF's first meeting with Spidey. Cut the neuroses with a knife.

Pitting Alpha against a broader Marvel villain, the Collector, for reason consistent with both Alpha & the Collector.

An outsider's view of Alpha, also consistent to characters.

Attention to Continuity. Unlike many guest appearances, you know in context how this fit into the AF title.

Characterization characvterization, characterization. This appearance was Marrina, Northstar, Aurora, Sasquatch and Puck. This was by Louise Jones, but character motives and actions flowed like they did in Byrne's work of the time.

No matter how internally belligerent, AF pulls together for one of their own. In fact, the reason the team was assembled at the time was support for Heather following Mac's death

Alpha didn't come off with the polish of the Avengers or the familial sense of the FF, they came off as Alpha: co-workers who don't necessarily like each other, but will pull through to get the job done.

Some development of the Plodex race without making them yet more humanoids in the MU.

Characterization intriguing enough that Spider-Man reader might have been interested enough to give AF a try.

One of all of four or five times Marrina has actually worked with Alpha Flight.

Hint at Northstar's orientation.

Competent art.

Great story. Showed the strength of Alpha Flight: the strengths and weaknesses of the assembled characters

[kozzi24]

BTW, Phil, shouldn't the guy starting the thread be putting in his own pick?

[Phil]

Nope, I just get to play devil's advocate.

[Phil]

Come on people!

More suggestions!

[kozzi24]

Hard to complain about the lack of suggestions if you don't put your own...?

[Phil]

I'm not complaining, just drumming up interest.

I have to remain impartial for the next stage.

[kozzi24]

what's the next stage?

[syvalois]

I can't think of a good AF apparences. I likes Walt apparences in FF the issue Sue lost the baby, but except from that, I usually don't find their guest apprarences memorable

[PWalk]

Del, why do you think MTIO #83-83 is better than MTU Annual #7, and than all the other guest appearances?
Where do I begin.

First of the fight between Sas and The Thing. Sas in his full pomp, not looking like a chump and nothing definite said about who was better or stronger.

Secondly the Thing sitting drinking tea in the Hudsons front room and bemoaning the fact that he was used to working with professionals. Given that the geezer works alongside the FF in a technological wonder and has lived in the same enviroment at Avengers mansion, yet was sitting in a front room on a sofa planning a strategy. Kinda epitomised peoples perception of the two countries ways.

It also epitomised Alpha, reluctant heroes who don't embrace their powers, but accept that cos they have them they have to protect the weaker.

The fact that when theirs a problem with radiation problems, Walt is one of the first mentioned as an expert in the field.

The argument between Northstar and Aurora. Re-inforcing their two totally different ways of thinking, Northstar (the in it for my sister, jerk) Aurora the fun loving woman who see's danger as just another adventure.

It being shown that the great Shaman wasn't infallable, that even the most reliable make mistakes.

The battle scenes, Vindicator lobbing a car, Sas holding up the building, the reporters voice commentating and mentioning Alpha as an unknown Canadian task force.

Finally Walt not being able to do nothing for Bill Foster. Human interest and proof that there isn't always a happy ending.

So that's good story telling, good characterisation and none of that normal taking the piss out of Alpha.

Marvel Team-Up Annual #7 pales alongside, AF as a foil for Spiderman, non of the above. Reasonable story which doesn't even make me wanna waffle like I did above :-)

Excellent write up that I agree with 100%
I was a huge fan of Grimm's before I ever even knew about AF.
The art was great too. Who drew that? I'd look it up but I'm at work.

[DelBubs]

Excellent write up that I agree with 100%
I was a huge fan of Grimm's before I ever even knew about AF.
The art was great too. Who drew that? I'd look it up but I'm at work.

Wrtten by De-Falco, Art by Ron Wilson and inks by Chic Stone on both issues.

Oh and it's good to see I'm not alone in my thinking.

[Phil]

De-Falco?

Woah.... That's suprising...

[PWalk]

Wilson's art in those issues was superb. His version of Sassy was and is one of my favorite versions. Also the one cover actually had a Sasquatch stylized nameplate on it.


Another good AF appearance is Sasquatch in Contest of Champions.

Theres a scene where Capt'n America, Beast, & Sas are talking. Beast says to Sasquatch "What do they call you?" and all Walt responds is "Sir!"
Cap then goes and thinks to himself "Wow, Beast has nothing on this guy!"

I'm at work so I'm paraphrasing but Sas gets alot of exposure in the limited series. Great stuff.

[Ben]

One of my favs that comes to mind is from an issue of the Infinity Crusaid, not sure which issue exactly. The Hulk is riding shotgun on the Silver Surfer's board, when he gets knocked off in a battle. He falls back down to earth, his clothes burning off as he broke through the atmosphere. He landed right on top of Sasquatch. A few pages later we see Sasquatch with a shaved back, and Hulk wearing an orage fur loincloth.

Ben

[bigbloo]

Does the first Xmen Alpha Flight Team Up count? It was a two issue limited series and i enjoyed it immensely. Had a great story, equal exposure for all the characters, did not start with an obligatory team vs team fight (though it developed into a spectacular battle between two groups made up of characters from each team). Just great stuff.

If that doesnt count, then id have to pick AF in Avengers for "The Crossing Line". I cant remember the exact issues of Avengers, but i liked it because it also didnt have the obligatory fight, and it showed a lot of mutual respect between the two teams.

[Le Messor]

I'd prob'ly go for one of the X-Men - 139 & 140, mostly. The team gets -respect- (which it doesn't so much in M2I1 83-84), development, everything we want! Yay!

Oh, yeah, but I do love X-Men AF v1. Paul Smith's art is good - and, for me, contains the definitive pic of Heather, when she chews her glasses on the plane, talking to Wolvie. Though it -does-, sort of, begin with the obligatory teams fighting scene - Rachel attacking Shaman.

But I love to see Alan Davis drawing them in MTU ann #7. (The Spider-Man / Plodex one. I get MTU and M2i1 mixed up. 'Specially since they showed up in ann #7 for both series.)

"Fear me - if you dare."
- Puss in Boots

[kozzi24]

So where's the next phase?

[birdygirl]

I liked AF's guest appearance in Rom (#54, 55, 56? -- I'm guessing at the issue numbers here -- forgive me!). Bill Mantlo wrote those issues, I believe -- but here he got it right! He captured the team's closeness and precision teamwork well, and had them actually behaving as heroes in rescuing the townspeople from the flood. I felt this was basically a positive view of Alpha.

[kozzi24]

When you reread those ROM issues, doesn't it boggle the mind how bad he turned out on Alpha?

[birdygirl]

I know. I remember reading these issues and thinking, "Why couldn't he have been this good on Alpha Flight"? It was just the kind of unity the book and the team needed. This is an excellent example of what Mantlo should have done with Alpha.

[PWalk]

When you reread those ROM issues, doesn't it boggle the mind how bad he turned out on Alpha?

I just went and re read those issues and you are right on the money. Incredible isn't it. :?:

[Le Messor]

Not to mention those Byrne covers on the two main ROM issues.
(But the third, AF's epilogue, contains one of the stupidest bits of comic art in my collection; Ant Man walking, and looking like a street-crossing sign... or a swastika.)

- Le Messor
"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly."
- G. K. Chesterton

[birdygirl]

I remember Alpha's epilogue in Rom, (the first four pages of that issue). It featured a few excellent scenes with Sasquatch, Snowbird, Shaman, and Marrina. Even that little bit of Alpha was good. Why couldn't Mantlo have kept up this kind of quality on the regular book? It might have made all the difference in the first series! :roll:

[kozzi24]

I think Mantlo included them because Alpha was such a popular book at the time, he'd boost sales. I think his writing on the Alpha title showed a general disdain for the characters.

[Barnacle13]

Loved the ROM series for one reason. It is one of the few times you get to see Marrina in action as a hero (not some mutated monster).

[birdygirl]

Marrina was a darling. And you're right: she was an underused hero. There was even a mention of this in one of the earliest AF letter columns, (something about Marrina's being one of the Alphans "least seen"). I won't argue with that! :)

[Richv1]

I agree Marinna was underused so we need her to make a comeback! Have her re-join Alpha Flight and or get her own series. Except for Namor how many Marvel characters that are water based have had their own series? They should give her a try.

[Chavez]

Those ROM issues were superb; I'll have to go look, but there was an AF/Avengers crossover awhile back called "The Crossing Line" that was fantastic; key moment was when Cap was thinking about what a great team leader Heather had become.

The plot was a little funky - a terrorist group took over a nuclear sub, and the Avengers were called in by the UN; however, it occurred in Canadian waters, so AF also got involved. But both the sub and terrorists were Russian, so the Russian super-team The People's Protectorate also got involved. Then some Atlanteans attacked and the nukes detonated and...well, a lot happened, let's put it that way.

[DelBubs]

The Crossing Line was another good example of Alpha being treated with respect and as equals. All those who turned up with Alpha had large parts to play in the story and whoever wrote it had obviously done some research on the team.

[kozzi24]

Wasn't that arc by Fabian Nicienza (sp)?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

... I think his writing on the Alpha title showed a general disdain for the characters.

I've got nothing against Bill Mantlo personally, it's just that his work on Alpha Flight has to speak for itself, and it basically shouts how much the original characters were disliked. Everyone was either turned into a criminal [James stealing stuff to make Wolverine] or a psychotic* [Madison Jeffries] or both , regardless of how ridiculous or implausible the transformation. Or they were just plain stupid [what was done to Heather, Puck, and Northstar is a travesty].

The one I find the most absurd is Douglas Thompson b*t*hing about Shaman and Snowbird not doing anything to save him after his fatal encounter with PESTILENCE---making [b]them seem like badguys---without Thompson admitting (or the other Flighters mentioning or thinking) that he had badmouthed Shaman and the whole team while holding a shotgun on them! That's selective memory and half. Group selective memory, to boot.

*[Michael's suggestion that killing Kara as one of the options for Alpha Flight to consider went against his being a doctor and a shaman. While the Talisman heightened Elizabeth's character flaws, I'm not sure what it did to Michael; since he wasn't "The One Foretold," maybe he could be twisted all sorts of ways, despite being a more experienced practioner of magic. Still doesn't make a lot of sense to me]

Getting back to the thread, M-T-I-O #s 83 and 84 do it for me 'cause it's got the characterizations, the jovial and competitive spirit of Walt/Sasquatch, AF doing good deeds, and their limits.

I've re-considered since I've got Wolverine#'s 141 and 172. Add Wolverine#s 141, 142, and 172 to the best-guest list: (#141-142) Heather goes after her husband in a non-powered outfit (smart move, which she always should have done); the twins are able to generate that blinding light again, and; attempt is made to bring back Snowbird and restore the original Alpha Flight. Plus (#172), Somon is huge (though five-fingered, a piddly oversight), the Old Gods get to do something, and Alpha Flight is heroic. Yu and Chen's artwork and storytelling is commendable.