Early evidence of Northstar's homosexuality

[beetleblack]

And Byrne did also plant the idea in our heads in...issue....ummm, 17 I think without having my comics on hand. The one where heather is holding Jimmy's old suit up to herself in the mirror.

Ben
It was #18, #17 had the image of the fight from UXM #109 on the cover (?).

All that comics stuff above is a smokescreen, to try and disguise the fact, that I never really took that image of Heather holding up the suit as a prelude of things to come, but just her giving a memory form. Oh and I never really got the Northstar being gay for a long time. Thats why I read spoilers, so I know what the hell is actually happening.

Nope, I never figured Northstar was gay the first time around either, although on re-reading the series the signs are there from the outset, or am I just reading things into it in retrospect?

[kozzi24]

The signs on Northstar's orientation were all there, but Byrne was a lot more subtle. If you didn't get it by Mantlo's crack of Northstar not objecting to tightly-dressed men around, shame on you. Byrne's hints were sly and well covered by circumstances, i.e. Northstar in Aurora's room in #1, "but this is not a man!" or Heather calling him "a toffee-nosed little--!" or Puck keeping a physical distance even while Northstar was flying him. Even UXM #121, with Aurora's statement that she was a lover, her brother was a fighter. in the late teens, there was a letter that was answered with a "cryptic yes" but the letter and question were not printed. My bet is someone figured it out and wrote to ask. If I remember the rumor mills right, everyone in the bullpen knew (he was drawn limp wristed in Crystar) but Jim Shooter did not want it openly said or acknowledged.

[SwiftFox]

i.e. Northstar in Aurora's room in #1, "but this is not a man!"

See that.... I don't get as a reference to homosexuality... and I really think the gay guys on the list might agree... they're still men...

Personally I use expressions like that all the time like:
"It's hard to talk to girls."
"You're talking to me..."
"You're not a girl, you're my sister."

I think it was more THAT kind of reference. The 'he's not like a REAL man because he's my brother." NOT "He's not a man, he's gay..."

[Nalyd Psycho]

I agree with SwiftFox. That seems like reading into it with the knowledge we have now.

[kozzi24]

Personally I use expressions like that all the time like:
"It's hard to talk to girls."
"You're talking to me..."
"You're not a girl, you're my sister."
That's exactly as it was phrased in the #1 scene, only Aurora was talking to a mother superior type.
A double entendre, intentional on Byrne's part

[Phil]

A double entendre, intentional on Byrne's part

But that's your opinion in hindsight rather than a fact, surely?
Unless Byrne has ever stated that that line was a reference to his sexuality it can't be presumed as it being that way.

[SwiftFox]

That's exactly as it was phrased in the #1 scene, only Aurora was talking to a mother superior type.
A double entendre, intentional on Byrne's part


Right, but I'm not saying it because my sister is a lesbian I'm saying it because I don't think of her as regular girl.

Personally I'd pretty ticked if my sis said I wasn't a man because I was gay. And further to Phil's point, if you're not Byrne, or if he didn't tell you thats what it meant, then you don't know what meaning he had.

[Mystic]

There were definite hints about Northstar's sexual preference in Byrne's run. Actually, through most of the series. The one that comes to mind is when JP made a comment on Aurora's personal life, and she shot back with 'You, of all people, shouldn't tell me how to live my life'.

-Mystic

[beetleblack]

The one that stood out for me at the time of reading it (rather than later when I re-read the series in hindsight) was after Walter had just come back as Wanda and there was discussion between Wanda and JP and he said how he felt after Walter had died, which implied to me that he had been in LOVE with Walter! Sadly this was never mentioned again even when Wanda became Walter again.

Btw, along with Mac coming back from the dead time and time again, I rate Wanda being transformed back into Walter a mistake (oh dear, I fear not many people will agree with me on this one, though!) - there was so much that could have been explored with Walter as Wanda which never was (we had the whole legal issue with his estate etc, but the emotional side of the character was never really picked up on - Walter seemed to accept being Wanda way too easily, there should have been more angst etc).

[SwiftFox]

Btw, along with Mac coming back from the dead time and time again, I rate Wanda being transformed back into Walter a mistake (oh dear, I fear not many people will agree with me on this one, though!) - there was so much that could have been explored with Walter as Wanda which never was (we had the whole legal issue with his estate etc, but the emotional side of the character was never really picked up on - Walter seemed to accept being Wanda way too easily, there should have been more angst etc).

I agree, it was pretty bizzare, but at the same time... brilliant! It was a very different idea... As for his side of it... did you read Mako's fic?

[beetleblack]

Btw, along with Mac coming back from the dead time and time again, I rate Wanda being transformed back into Walter a mistake (oh dear, I fear not many people will agree with me on this one, though!) - there was so much that could have been explored with Walter as Wanda which never was (we had the whole legal issue with his estate etc, but the emotional side of the character was never really picked up on - Walter seemed to accept being Wanda way too easily, there should have been more angst etc).

I agree, it was pretty bizzare, but at the same time... brilliant! It was a very different idea... As for his side of it... did you read Mako's fic?

Well after reading the first part of Mako's Northstar and Iceman slashy saga my doctor adviced me to avoid such reading matter for a while as it made my pulse rate increase to a dangerous degree ;) Which story is this Wanda/Walter and where can I find it?

[SwiftFox]

Well after reading the first part of Mako's Northstar and Iceman slashy saga my doctor adviced me to avoid such reading matter for a while as it made my pulse rate increase to a dangerous degree ;) Which story is this Wanda/Walter and where can I find it?

I'm sure you're doctor would approve of this story... I mean it's actually posted on the forum and all... it's set Vol 3, but it looks on Walt's Wanda time... it's actually very cute...

http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=267


[EDIT: OMG!! This post brought me up to Alpha rank!! Wooo!]

[beetleblack]

Well after reading the first part of Mako's Northstar and Iceman slashy saga my doctor adviced me to avoid such reading matter for a while as it made my pulse rate increase to a dangerous degree ;) Which story is this Wanda/Walter and where can I find it?

I'm sure you're doctor would approve of this story... I mean it's actually posted on the forum and all... it's set Vol 3, but it looks on Walt's Wanda time... it's actually very cute...

http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=267


[EDIT: OMG!! This post brought me up to Alpha rank!! Wooo!]

Cool, I shall certainly check it out.

Oh and btw, welcome to the team Swifty ;)

[kozzi24]

Mantlo "established" that Northstar was in love with Walter as of #29, when Aurora is on the couch crying over Walt's loss, and Northstar cries with her and Aurora says, "oh you too" and NS says "yes"

That was when I picked up on NS's sexuality. Alpha was my absolute favorite book at that time and through #50 (sinking like a stone thereafter Nicienza came on board.) I had read the series and related appearances several times before #29, (the only comic series I have read as many or more times in Marvel's Star Wars.)

I had questioned some of the remarks without picking up on their meaning. The scene in #29 only confirmed the theory I had built, mostly from #7's appearance of the rather froppish Raymond (and NS's surprise that he had a daughter), Heather's "Toffee-nosed" outburst (Northstar was no ass kisser, so what could THAT mean?) his surprise at Clementine's exuberant kiss, and Rogue's surprise "ALL his secrets" in the XM/AF LS.

The real problem I had with #29 is that I find it inconcevable that NS was in love with or even had a crush on Walter. By direct reference to the books, the spell in #24 would not have worked without someone who hated Langkowski, and if the Artificer wanted to merely divide AF's forces, demanding someone who hated the "prisoner" among his six RESCUERS in the remoteness would have stretched the odds beyond anything such an aged character would attempt unless he could sense one of them DID hate Langkowski.

As for my inferences: NS would certainly admire the body around to look at, but the personality factor would kill any "love." This explanation also fits with Northstar's remark to Wanda that he preferred her as the man she was.

NS was a pointy-eared, homosexually-inclined ORPHAN. He's a defensive and angry adult. Don't tell me he was anything but victim for class bullies growing up. Look at Langkowski: football player, wanting Hulk super-power enough to experiement on himself intentionally, and his ridicule of Puck in AF #1 as well as other examples. He is a CLASSIC bully. The artificer's statement that Langkowski could be saved only by one of great power, one who loved him and one who hated him was definitely truth, and makes sense on a primoral (sp) sense. If someone with power, hatred and love go to bat for a soul, then that sould has had enough consequence on others in life to be worthy of saving. Northstar hated him, and probably has the attitude, "Why are all the great looking ones *******s?!"

You can debate whether the remark of "but he's not a man" is right or fair, but I've reread the run enough times to recognize it as one of the first of many subtle hints about Northstar's arientation. At least that line from #1 is within context of the characters and had another meaning. Mantlo's treatment of the situation was at best bad, and at worst, mean.

[SwiftFox]

Heather's "Toffee-nosed" outburst (Northstar was no ass kisser, so what could THAT mean?)

It could mean what toffee-nosed means... :)

"toffee-nosed - snobbish; pretentiously superior "
"toffee-nosed
adjective UK INFORMAL DISAPPROVING
People who are toffee-nosed consider themselves to be better than other people, especially than people of a lower social class:
- He's a toffee-nosed git - take no notice of him!"

I have found no corelation between the term toffee-nosed and homosexuality. However the definition above CERTAINLY applies to Jean-Paul. Picking that line as a reference to homosexuality seems to over-searching/reading into things and is really a pretty nasty inferrence given what you put in brackets.

[Zach]

There is another hint about Northstar's orientation in issue 10. During the origin section when Mac is talking to him, he says "You had it all--money, fame, women...Although the women don't seem to have interested you overmuch."

[ladymako71]

well I can tell you that I first learned which way JP swings when AF #106 made the front page of the Honolulu Star Bulletin. I had seen AF in the comic shop but had never really given it much thought. I was already collecting 20+ titles at the time and was daunted financially there...lol damn college poverty. The issue itself got blah reviews in the article for being to fast paced and not really in depth considering it was a 'major milestone for a Marvel Comics character'

I remember the article also had a positive light with saying Marvel was doing good by showing different sides of current culture and that acceptance isn't a bad thing. I wish I still had the bloody thing but alas. =/ I only wish that Marvel had gone further with it instead of saying 'look we have a gay guy too!'

[jay042]

John Byrne says so himself (http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=248951&messageid=1053631611&lp=1053748174)

[Phil]

Then there you go.

We have fact, speculation over.

That was all people wanted to see.

Cheers Jay.

[DelBubs]

So Northstars gay then ? What about his boyfriend ?

[SwiftFox]

Then there you go.

We have fact, speculation over.

That was all people wanted to see.

Cheers Jay.

Not to be argumentative by any means... but what exactly did that solve? There was no dispute over whether JP was gay or that Byrne intended that..

My only argument is that just because JP said "Hi" and not "Hello" in issue 14, that wasn't a sign of his homosexuality. I mean that is an obvious exaggeration but some of the speculations have seemed almost that ridiculous.

[Phil]

Don't take things the wrong way mate, I'm with you on the points you raised, and was trying to argue the case that people can't just say stuff now in hindsight, as evidenced by my earlier comments in the thread.

I wasn't trying to solve anything, so apologies if I expressed that poorly.

I just mean that on that particular issue, we have Byrne's comments that it was intentionally written as a sign, and didn't want this whole thing spirally out of control.

[SwiftFox]

LOL Phil No apologies needed. It's so hard in pure text sometimes to get the right attitude across and all. I think I came across the wrong way there..

I think I missed your point overall... thats what I get for posting when my mind is elsewhere (Spider-man 2 for Xbox...)

:) Alll is good.

[beetleblack]

I want more concrete proof so we have no doubt at all - I'd like to see Northstar carrying an oversized pink handbag like the one Tinky-Winky carries around in The Teletubbies, wherever he goes, that should do it ;)

[kozzi24]

Learn something new every day...!


It could mean what toffee-nosed means...

"toffee-nosed - snobbish; pretentiously superior "
"toffee-nosed
adjective UK INFORMAL DISAPPROVING
People who are toffee-nosed consider themselves to be better than other people, especially than people of a lower social class:
- He's a toffee-nosed git - take no notice of him!"

My point was that Byrne was choosing words carefully to to hint to Northstar's sexual identity, and the article seems to prove that. Byrne was dropping hints where he could. I'm not saying I figured it out from the toffee nosed remark, but put that with all the other hints that were in existence by the time Mantlo's obvious disdain came into play, and it was all there for me, particularly with the number of times I had read Byrne's run.

I had taken the toffee nose comment as one of those hints, unaware of meaning in UK or elsewhere. The closest term I had heard was of someone beeing a brownnose or brown noser, meaning that they kissed the ass of bosses, teachers, etc, just do be liked or better grade, raise. That sense certainly is not in NS's personality.

[jay042]

I want more concrete proof so we have no doubt at all - I'd like to see Northstar carrying an oversized pink handbag like the one Tinky-Winky carries around in The Teletubbies, wherever he goes, that should do it ;)

This was the era of the Comics Code, and Byrne had to be sly about this if he wanted to get it approved. That's why there was no concrete evidence that JP was gay. Northstar was never the flamboyant effete stereotype. His sex life was honsetly nobody's damned business and he made that quite clear. Adding those qualities into the character obviously made him much more interesting for Byrne to write.


As for Tinky Winky, no he is not gay, he's just very British :)

[Phil]

As for Tinky Winky, no he is not gay, he's just very British :)

I think you'd find there's a few of us on here that'd disagree with that :P

[ladymako71]

LMAO believe it or not Phil the 'tinky winky is very british' thing was a response here in the states to the gay claims...heaven forbid that parents let their toddlers watch a flaming homosexual on the telly...in the states? good god! the very idea! </sarcasm>

[Phil]

If he'd have carried a bowler hat, umbrella and briefcase I'd understand :P

[ladymako71]

^^ just remember where the assertion came up in, in the first... ;)

As for the actual thread...Seeing as I have only begun collecting AF with this volumn, I would only be adding to the 'it's all so clear to me in hindsight!' bit. But then me best mate back in Hawai'i is a drag queen who would probably shoot me if I did so...said mate is also a bigger comic book nut then me...and that's saying quite a bit. ;)

[Richv1]

So is thee any chance that like straight couples we will see Northstar going around with a boyfriend or even have a wedding with a guy? We get to see female and male couples in comics all the time so why not a male male couple.

[beetleblack]

So is there any chance that like straight couples we will see Northstar going around with a boyfriend or even have a wedding with a guy? We get to see female and male couples in comics all the time so why not a male male couple.

In a word: no.

It's rumoured that Marvel are scared of gay male characters now because they aren't child friendly enough, so that is why we are seeing a lot less of JP. Apparently lesbians are okay though.

[Richv1]

Lesbians are ok? Like Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn(I know she is bi but close enough).
Which other lesbian couple are around?

[DelBubs]

Maybe I'm reading more into it than what there actually is, but I believe Xian whatever and Danielle Moonstar could be a partenership ??

[jay042]

As for Tinky Winky, no he is not gay, he's just very British :)

I think you'd find there's a few of us on here that'd disagree with that :P

I was actually thinking in terms of British children's programing. I got the impression that UK kids had a lot of unbelivably saccharine programming over the years.

[Richv1]

Tinky Winky I don't think has really been shown as gay or straight. Its a big creature that has no sexuality at all. And who cares what color he wears or carries.

[kozzi24]

Maybe I'm reading more into it than what there actually is, but I believe Xian whatever and Danielle Moonstar could be a partenership ??
Just Xian, who is interested in a coffee shop manager. She was established as gay in X-Force, during an appearance in the 50's or 60's, after the "road trip" bit

[Richv1]

But would't it be nice to see a company take a chance and have a male gay couple in a comic. Give Northstar a full time boyfriend/lover. Have them actually kiss and hold hands. Things like that.

[DelBubs]

But would't it be nice to see a company take a chance and have a male gay couple in a comic. Give Northstar a full time boyfriend/lover. Have them actually kiss and hold hands. Things like that.
Wildstorm have already done that with Apollo and the Midnighter in the Authority. They are even the adopted parents of Jenny Quantum. The problem Marvel has is that they are trying to pul a younger audience into comics. I think they probably need too, gotta have an audience in the future. I think you may see Northstar in a relationship in the Ultimate line, but not in a mainstream Marvel book.

[Richv1]

I heard about Apollo ans Midnighter but I don't read that series. I have always thought of them as a cheap version of the JLA even though I know a lot of people seem to think they are better than the JLA.
A limited series in the Marvel Knights heading might show Northstar in a relationship.

[kozzi24]

But would't it be nice to see a company take a chance and have a male gay couple in a comic. Give Northstar a full time boyfriend/lover. Have them actually kiss and hold hands. Things like that.
No, not really.
Would not be a boost to sales, either.

[jay042]

I heard about Apollo ans Midnighter but I don't read that series. I have always thought of them as a cheap version of the JLA even though I know a lot of people seem to think they are better than the JLA.
A limited series in the Marvel Knights heading might show Northstar in a relationship.

Well, Apollo and Midnighter were very much intended to be Superman and Batman as gay lovers. The rest of the Authority were more original concepts. Seeing how Wildstorm is a DC imprint anyway, I guess it doesn't matter.

I guess Supreme Power is "Ultimate JLA" as it were.

[DelBubs]

I heard about Apollo ans Midnighter but I don't read that series. I have always thought of them as a cheap version of the JLA even though I know a lot of people seem to think they are better than the JLA.
A limited series in the Marvel Knights heading might show Northstar in a relationship.

Well, Apollo and Midnighter were very much intended to be Superman and Batman as gay lovers. The rest of the Authority were more original concepts. Seeing how Wildstorm is a DC imprint anyway, I guess it doesn't matter.

I guess Supreme Power is "Ultimate JLA" as it were.
And New Warriors is Teen Titans, Hyperion, Mr Majestik are Superman, Savage Dragon is The Hulk etc etc. I guess that as Supes is probably the original super hero, all heroes can trace their origins through him. In much the same way that todays music can trace it's origins to Scott Joplin. (Thats me agreeing with ya Jay, my text can lead to mis-interpretations.)

Rich, even if Authority is a JLA rip off, I don't see how that negates the fact, that a mainsteam comic portrays a gay relationship. Most aspects have been seen, kisses, the angst of Midnighter when Apollo was raped and tender moments when one has been hurt. Lets see the JLA do that.

[Barnacle13]

Wouldn't you think in this day and age, where same sex marriages are occurring and are indeed legal, that Marvel or some other company would test those waters themselves? Even if it remained a controversial topic in their book. I'd think Northstar would definitely be the hero to shoulder this burden. Afterall, it was he who came out first. They could have him marry in Massachusetts while with the X-men. He could deal with the legality of the marriage in future stories, depending on where his travels take him. I think they'd make for interesting stories. Would I have a problem with my 7 and 8 year olds reading a story where two men openly share their intamacy through a kiss? Not on your life! They'll see it eventually. I'd rather them see it while I have a chance to offer them an un-bigoted (sorry couldn't find the right word) opinion about the subject. They are old enough to form questions about the topic and to understand that there are different types of families ranging from moms and dads to dads and dads to grandmas and grandpas. The world is what it is! Comics can be a very good learning tool for kids about the diversity in life. Now I realize there are parents out there who want to protect their kids from the "evils" of the world, but at the same time, you can't protect your kids from things they aren't aware are dangerous. I'm not talking about homosexuality here, but some of the world's other corruptions (violence, drugs, social disease, etc.). The old Power Pack stories about drugs are good examples of this. I think Alpha Flight could help even if in a small way to further acceptance of different social groups. They should go for it. I'd prefer to see it in Alpha Flight than in X-men. Hold the big "Gay Wedding" issue complete with bachelor party. Imagine the characterization you'd get with Puck and Sasquatch sitting around with some of Jean Paul's other friends. T'would be interesting indeed. Imagine them throwing a bachelor party that he didn't enjoy because it was too masculine. Could be a great story there.
Anyway, I'm for this. I think it's close sighted to ignore such a topic.

Barnacle

[DelBubs]

Barnacle, I think you'd find that the majority, if not all of the people here agree with you, but then you can also see Marvels viewpoint. In a mainstream Marvel book,it wouldn't be prudent to portray what you outlined, especially with the conservative viewpoints being championed by the current administration. People are going to kick off if their kid comes home with a comic that openly portrays any diverse lifestyle. In the Ultimate, Max or Marvel Knights line that has parental advisory labels, it's not to bad, but in the 616, it's not something i think they are gonna do any time soon.

[Richv1]

I wouldn't mind seeing that in a JLA comic. But I doubt we will. It is rare to seeing any kissing in it. I know Batnan and Wonder Woman have kissed but that lead nowhere.
Maybe a Vertigo comic might have shown something like that. But not main stream DC.
I don't think I would agree with a lot of your comparisons. Savage Dragon is a totally different character than the Hulk. Both are green and strong but there the similiarities end. The same can be said about the New warriors and Teen Titans. But the Authority and JLA. As you said Apollo and Midnighter are suppost to be gay Superman and Batman. There powers are almost the same from the little I've read. The Authority has a magical Doctor similar to Dr. Fate both are even called Dr.'s. The Authority has a winged girl like Hawkgirl or Hawkman. And the Engineer I'm not sure of her powers but she looks a lot like a female version of Captain Atom.

[beetleblack]

Maybe I'm reading more into it than what there actually is, but I believe Xian whatever and Danielle Moonstar could be a partenership ??

Xian is the lesbian HOWEVER when I first started reading I actually thought that Danielle Moonstar was the lesbian (mainly because I got confused with who Karma was when I was reading on a website!) and continued to think that she was until I realised that Xian was Karma and Danielle was Mirage (/Moonstar). I DO think that they would make a good couple though.

As for Apollo and Midnighter, I only started reading The Authority on Del's recommendation and I have to say that it's certainly interesting and nice to see a gay couple represented. (They had the gay wedding thing btw).

At the end of the day Marvel are too scared to touch this issue with a bargepole these days because they are scared of the reaction of it's readers and the general homophobic views of society in general.

[DelBubs]

I don't think I would agree with a lot of your comparisons. Savage Dragon is a totally different character than the Hulk. Both are green and strong but there the similiarities end. The same can be said about the New warriors and Teen Titans.
Green, super strong, crap character, I can see how there might not be any comparison, what you after, genetic fingerprinting to see if they're related. Dragon is a complete rip off of Hulk, who in turn is a rip off of Mr Hyde. Who was originally written as the dark side of human nature. Ergo Hulk, next step Savage Dragon. Plagerism is the main stay of the comics industry, new characters are dfficult to create, cos most aspects have been explored. New Warriors, team group, Thrash = Batman etc, Robin = teen Batman, Titans and Warriors equate.

But the Authority and JLA. As you said Apollo and Midnighter are suppost to be gay Superman and Batman. There powers are almost the same from the little I've read. The Authority has a magical Doctor similar to Dr. Fate both are even called Dr.'s. The Authority has a winged girl like Hawkgirl or Hawkman. And the Engineer I'm not sure of her powers but she looks a lot like a female version of Captain Atom.
Midnighter would kick crap out of Batman without breaking into a sweat. Of course the Authority are a rip off of the JLA, but as was said earlier, mos characters are rip offs. The Authroity have gone beyond the JLA, their stories are more cinematic, a status quo in the Authority is a thing you'd never see. They are horrible in a lot of respects, they are pretentious. However when all is said and done, they are refreshing in that they are flawed and are prepared to use all means necessary to achieve what they percieve as rightous aims. Oh and they have a gay couple, which was the initial premise that sent us down this path.

[Richv1]

My last post for some reason didn't work lets hope this one does.
I agree with showing contraversail subjects but I can also see Marvel's point about shying away from it if they think it might cause them to lose sales since that is the bottom line. If comics don't sell they won't be in business long and the majority of people are straight. Most people that buy comics are straight. There are exceptions of course I work with a lesbian that enjoys the X-Men comics and cartoons.

[DelBubs]

Most people that buy comics are straight. There are exceptions of course I work with a lesbian that enjoys the X-Men comics and cartoons.
I'm of the opinion that the split between gay/straight readers may be in favour of straight, but I wouldn't say it was an overwhelming majority. With Alpha especially there would seem to be a very large gay readership.

[SwiftFox]

I'm of the opinion that the split between gay/straight readers may be in favour of straight, but I wouldn't say it was an overwhelming majority. With Alpha especially there would seem to be a very large gay readership.

Add to that of course that not all straight people have issues with homosexuality. I understand that obviouslly some do, like the guy who wrote a letter (can't remember which ish it appeared, maybe 11 or 12?) during Vol 2, saying that because Northstar appeared in issue 8, he was dropping the title. But looking at the other side of it, despite the fact that it pretty much used the same tired old jokes as every other sitcom, Will & Grace was a very popular show for some time. And it was on a major network, at Prime time and is now even syndicated into earlier time slots. It's not something people can "shelter" their children from. (And to quote you from earlier Del... I am agreeing with you here, even if I went on a tangent and it may or may not sound like it...)

[Richv1]

So if Alpha has a 50/50 or better gay readership does that mean half the people posting here are gay?

[SwiftFox]

So if Alpha has a 50/50 or better gay readership does that mean half the people posting here are gay?

Dude, we have a new Alpha Flight series... we're all 'very happy' :P

[DelBubs]

So if Alpha has a 50/50 or better gay readership does that mean half the people posting here are gay?
I've never actually done a census, isn't really an issue, but I would hazard that out of the regular posters here, a fair number are gay.


Add to that of course that not all straight people have issues with homosexuality. I understand that obviouslly some do, like the guy who wrote a letter (can't remember which ish it appeared, maybe 11 or 12?) during Vol 2, saying that because Northstar appeared in issue 8, he was dropping the title. But looking at the other side of it, despite the fact that it pretty much used the same tired old jokes as every other sitcom, Will & Grace was a very popular show for some time. And it was on a major network, at Prime time and is now even syndicated into earlier time slots. It's not something people can "shelter" their children from. (And to quote you from earlier Del... I am agreeing with you here, even if I went on a tangent and it may or may not sound like it...)
I'm of the opinion that anyone who has an issue with anything that they believe makes a person diverse, is in a minority themselves. That prat who wrote that letter obviously lives a sheltered life and spends a lot of his time sleeping with his relatives and cleaning hs gun. Dreaming of the day when the KKK takes control of the US :P Regarding Will and Grace, we get that here, but I think it's pretty crap, but only cos I find it totally unfunny.

Regarding sheltering children, thats kinda bizarre, what we gonna do, hide them away from Ethnic groups. Homosexuality is much a part of life as Mums apple pie :-) or whatever else you can think of that is part and parcel of everyday life. My 15 year old daughters best friend is a Bi lad in her class, they spend there time together fawning over Orlando Bloom, so maybe they both need help, god he's ugly.

[kozzi24]

daughters best friend is a Bi lad in her class, they spend there time together fawning over Orlando Bloom, so maybe they both need help, god he's ugly.

Jeff Kozzi wets himself laughing

[kozzi24]

So if Alpha has a 50/50 or better gay readership does that mean half the people posting here are gay?
_________________
Richard Vasseur


DelBubs wrote:
I've never actually done a census, isn't really an issue, but I would hazard that out of the regular posters here, a fair number are gay.

I would think the chicken-and-the-egg condruum (sp) on this. Gay people that read comics gravitate for the things they identify with. I think a lot of it goes down to minority mindset. The "mainstream" audience for any media does not buy things because it is by/about other SWMs. They go strictly for what they personally like. A good example here is when an out of town black old college friend visited once, she was looking at my CD collection and pointing out certain disks to her daughter. "Oh, look, Llionel Ritchie. Oh Look, Tina Turner." and saying this with the tone of "what a cultured white boy to have music by black artists."
I like Will & Grace sometimes, if only because I solidly recognize that all humor is mean (there's always a butt to the joke, the recipient of the pie in the face.) They're all mean to each other, and that's the form of humor. Then they do episodes on the gay experience and the show loses me.

Minorities are also self defined, and as liberal minded as I try to be, I still can't equate sexual preference to skin color. I can accept it, but I don't want too many details, and if the person presents hir sum totality as the minority group se thinks se belongs to, I get bored with that person fast, and feel bad for them for limiting themselves so much. Many people here I think probably got into Alpha Flight as "the Northstar book," only because Northstar is gay.

Northstar was my favorite Alpha. I like speed-powered characters, and his abrasive personality always spiced up the scenes he appeared in, the same way Namor and Moondragon and Hawkeye spice things up when they're written well.

I have NOT liked Northstar in X-Men, because it is obvious his inclusion was based solely on his sexuality. Aurora--as a professional teacher who probably can't hold down a job due to her MPD and superhuman activities--would have been a better choice. Where's the Northstar who was a former terrorist? Where's the Northstar who was neither a leader nor a follower? Where's the Northstar who was an orphan with unexplored origins? Where's the Northstar who was trying to build and maintain a relationship with effectively two different sisters that he didn't know growing up? Where's the Northstar who was defensive and fully exhibited the "Quicksilver syndrome." Where's the Northstar who was so Machavellian as to strike down Storm from behind to make sure his team's objectives were won?

That Northstar's been nowhere to be seen, as I think Scott Lobdell has pointed out, because Chuck Austen would rather have a gay character to have a crush on Iceman and explore Juggernaut's sexuality.
Northstar's still a favorite character from the good old days, and I've been waiting since the end of Vol 1 to see him used well. The LS explored himself some, then got down to it all being about him being gay. Scott's use in his four issue new-team run in X-Men was the best example, and I thought the gay references were reasonable considering the book tour direction of the character, but it went over the top in forcing a kiss of life to a homophobic character. (A much more interesting scenario would have been the worst, could the homophobe save the life of a gay with the kiss of life, especially if the gay was unconscious for saving the homophobe?)

Suprisingly, I didn't have any problem with the "I am gay!" outburst during the fight with Mapleleaf senior, because it made sense in the context of the ongoing fight and debate. I had a problem with the press conference because it was completely out of character for a defensive, self-isolationist man.

Has anyone else proposed Northstar's character be explored outside the gay perimeters?

If Northstar had a solo book and they want to risk reader alienation by making it a gay book, that's their risk. But Alpha is a team book. Romance in mainstream superhero comics should have direct impact on the team. When Sasquatch and Aurora got together, there was the question of what the rest of the Flight would make of the romance. Heather's relationships explored her post widowhood and how her leadership and the team itself would be affected.

Aside his crush on Heather, I'm sure a guy like Puck has not been celibate, but I don't need to know what relationships he might have had because they didn't effect the team. I don't need to know whether Heather lays back or mounts Mac, or whether Aurora's adventurism is oral or coital. I don't need anything past a "I've been seeing someone" from Northstar on page unless he's being played by someone trying to get to the team, and even in that case, I don't really need anything that goes further than necessary to establish hints that the boyfriend will be an upcoming threat to the team.

The more graphic or revealing stories about character's personal lives are best left for the fanfic.

[HappyCanuck]

... surprisingly, I agree with Kozzi almost entirely...

[Richv1]

I don't think it should matter what sexuality a characater is as lond as it fits them. But leaning about the characters personality is part of what makes a comic great that it gets you to identitfy with the person and know how they react most times. You get a look inside their heads. So you actually feel for them. Northstar's sexuality shouldn't be exploited just for the sake of it. But it also shouldn't be ignored.

[Phil]

I think gay relationships in comics should be banned.

And straight ones.

And people with children.

And people kissing.

And people cursing.

And people wearing clothes.

And people eating apples.

[SwiftFox]

PHIL!!!!!

You just made me wet my pants.... :P

[Phil]

That should be banned too.

[DelBubs]

What about someone playing a banjo while eating a apple and being bi-curious, I need to know as I'm developing a character.

[Phil]

A banjo can never be a good thing.

[DelBubs]

I understand that banjos are good for duelling. When Northstar took on Major Maple Leaf Senior, it would have been a better story if banjos could have been employed at some point.

[Phil]

Nice try getting it back on topic Del...

BANNED!

[HappyCanuck]

I think gay relationships in comics should be banned.

And straight ones.

And people with children.

And people kissing.

And people cursing.

And people wearing clothes.

And people eating apples.

*Sighs breath of relief* Thank God, I was having withdrawls from lack of sarcasm... :P

[Phil]

Always come to an Englishman for sarcasm.

[ladymako71]

Always come to an Englishman for sarcasm.

And if you're looking for cynical crude sarcasm...well you know where to look mate. ;)

Anyhoo, it's not like showing JP in a relationship is going to throw the planet off it's axis or something...Showing the whole Scott/Jean thing one more time might though.

[Richv1]

Maybe comics should be banned? :lol:

[DelBubs]

Nice try getting it back on topic Del...

BANJOED!
I do my best.

So we've established that NS is gay, that some subtle hints where given all through the book and that if he'd been an apple munching gay wearing clothes who played the banjo then he would definately have been persona non grata!

[Richv1]

What does eating apples have to do with being gay? Or playing a banjo? I like banjo playing but don't play one myself. And I eat apples. Well so 2 out of 2 does that mean I might be gay? :P

[kozzi24]

What does eating apples have to do with being gay? Or playing a banjo? I like banjo playing but don't play one myself. And I eat apples. Well so 2 out of 2 does that mean I might be gay? :P
I assume you wear clothes too, so thats 3 of 3

[HappyCanuck]

What does eating apples have to do with being gay? Or playing a banjo? I like banjo playing but don't play one myself. And I eat apples. Well so 2 out of 2 does that mean I might be gay? :P
I assume you wear clothes too, so thats 3 of 3

it WOULD be 3/3 if you had PROOF he wears clothes... (funny thing about assumptions: they are generally only 50/50)

[kozzi24]

Odds of assumption being right are greater because he's in Canada, and it's cold up there.

[HappyCanuck]

Odds of assumption being right are greater because he's in Canada, and it's cold up there.

Um, I'm in Canada, and it sure as Hell ain't cold here (82F at present)

[syvalois]

Odds of assumption being right are greater because he's in Canada, and it's cold up there.

Um, I'm in Canada, and it sure as Hell ain't cold here (82F at present)

What? Allan you are still using that old Fareneith unit thing? And you call yourself Canadian? Come on, you know it's celsius we use and learn in Canada (in Québec anyway). My God, he is using the F word. nooo!!!!!!

[HappyCanuck]

Um, I'm in Canada, and it sure as Hell ain't cold here (82F at present)

What? Allan you are still using that old Fareneith unit thing? And you call yourself Canadian? Come on, you know it's celsius we use and learn in Canada (in Québec anyway). My God, he is using the F word. nooo!!!!!!

Now now, before anyone goes and calls the Metric Police, I simply used Fehrenheit for those of our non-Metric friends.

[ladymako71]

Um, I'm in Canada, and it sure as Hell ain't cold here (82F at present)

What? Allan you are still using that old Fareneith unit thing? And you call yourself Canadian? Come on, you know it's celsius we use and learn in Canada (in Québec anyway). My God, he is using the F word. nooo!!!!!!

Now now, before anyone goes and calls the Metric Police, I simply used Fehrenheit for those of our non-Metric friends.


Ahahahahahaha! You got scolded! You got scolded!

Although Sylvie I have to give him some slack here...depending on the nationality of who I'm talking to is whether I use C or F...I have enough practice converting between the two I can do it in me head now.

[Mystic]

I appreciate the conversion between the two. Being in a country where the metric system is an evil phrase, it's appreciated. :)

-Mystic

[ladymako71]

I appreciate the conversion between the two. Being in a country where the metric system is an evil phrase, it's appreciated. :)

-Mystic

LOL I could be really bad and post temps in K...then you'd all be complaining about how flaming hot it is during the blizzard raging outside in winter. ^^

But heat is over rated anyway...it's a matter of what yer used to and what I can handle comfortably would probably kill anyone from north of the border lol

[Richv1]

I'm in Canada and its cool hee because I have the central air and fans on. Otherwise I'd be sweating. Why do people think its always cold here? I live in Ontario, Canada and it is usually always warmer here than in the States. And no I don't live in an Igloo!

[syvalois]

LOL I could be really bad and post temps in K...then you'd all be complaining about how flaming hot it is during the blizzard raging outside in winter. ^^

I think conversion to kelvin are a lot easier than the F word, 0°K = -273°C and it's a simple "règle de trois" (don't know in english). Anyway, easier to convert as you can see bellow (picture graciously found by burN). Now, 82 F = 28°C, with or without humidex factor? :twisted:

Sylvie

http://library.thinkquest.org/10429/media/mathrev/f_c_eq.gif

Hé, hé, hé !!! 8) burN@ :roll:

[Richv1]

What picture?

[syvalois]

What picture?

that one if it's working now:

http://library.thinkquest.org/10429/media/mathrev/f_c_eq.gif

[kozzi24]

conversion's easy for eatimate
C to F temp x2 + 32
F to C temp -32 /2

Sylvie's picture clogged me up, but I did see it, and was more complicated by being more precise with 1.8 instead of 2

Summer, yes, but I don't think many Canadians get away with being nudists full time, and don't want to think what people are wearing or not while in front of the keyboard.

[syvalois]

Sorry the pic still gone :( Well, Kozzi summaried (sp) it well, except for Kelvin, but I did it before :D Now I never multiply by 2 always 1,8... that must be why I can't get it in °F :? :)

Now, what temperature got to do with northstar homosexuality?

[kozzi24]

Maybe the gay readers find him to be a real hot guy?

[kozzi24]

Or maybe no.
Personality problems?

[Uncle Rich]

Some friends and I were talking about this subject recently so I was wondering if anyone here had seen the early reference.

There was one clear early reference that Northstar was gay. I'm trying to find the exact issue (I've had them packed away for 25 years) but I think it was between #2 and #12 somewhere.

Northstar was criticizing Aurora for keeping the company of men, and quipped back that since when did he object to keeping the company of men.

[suzene]

Some friends and I were talking about this subject recently so I was wondering if anyone here had seen the early reference.

There was one clear early reference that Northstar was gay. I'm trying to find the exact issue (I've had them packed away for 25 years) but I think it was between #2 and #12 somewhere.

Northstar was criticizing Aurora for keeping the company of men, and quipped back that since when did he object to keeping the company of men.

Sounds like the bickering from AF #41, Kara Kilgrave's debut issue. Aurora wants to design Madison's costume, Northstar snarks that it'll of course be something impossibly form-fitting, and she wants to know since when does he object to having attractively men around. Not one of the earliest examples, but Mantlo's hints were a lot less subtle than Byrne's.