Austens Ironclads

[DelBubs]

Didn't want to hijack the Yukon Jack and Snowbird thread, so bought this over here.


And as for Alpha's treatment under Austen... I liked it. For starters, I got to see classic characters again, and be shown that in a universe that becomes more X-centric (no pun intended) every day, Alpha Flight is still a force to be reckoned with. I hear people just railing against the fact that they wore "stupid-looking" armor in their fight with the Juggernaut, and *****ing and moaning and pleading that it won't be permanent. But if you READ the story, you'll realize that the armor was constructed specifically for Alpha Flight to fight the Hulk. Alpha Flight knew that they would be fighting the Juggernaut, and had already had more than one encounter with the behemoth, so they probably surmised (correctly) that they should go into the situation prepared to take him down.

So the armor wasn't all that attractive. So what? I thought all three of them looked spiffy in it. Gave Alpha Flight a more modern edge. And that's nothing that you'll see me complain about.
I cannot see any possible reason why Alpha would need armour to take on The Hulk or Juggs. Mac is a fighter from a distance when facing off against someone like the Hulk. His weaponary is such that he doesn't have to get in close. The same goes for Heather. The only one who gets in close against super strength types is Sas, who is the living embodiment of one of the Great Beasts. Walt has been shown to be able to press weights far in advance of what Hulk and Juggs have. Whats a few pieces of metal with circuitrey (sp) going to do for him. He looked like an extremely ugly quarterback in the armor.

Maybe I'm mising somthing, but I didn't see spiffy. All I saw was a disrespectful writer using AF as guinea pigs for his purile writing style. He did the same when they went to get Sammy The Squid from the Mansion and again when Juggs turned up. He's taken Northstar out of the AF equation for the time being and for what.

I admire that you stand up for Austen, but I'm not sure your gonna find many who share your viewpoint.

[PWalk]

Can someone post a pic of the Alphans in this "armor". I can't find the book and have yet to see what all the hub bub is about.

Thanks!

[Phil]

I think I may have deleted the scan I made at the time, but I'll go redo it now ;)

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

You know, I had this extremely lengthy reply post all written out... and then the website decides to not work, LOL. So I guess I'll be as succinct as possible here.

I don't support Austen. He butchered Polaris. He created Nurse Annie. He reduced JP to a caricature. So don't think I particularly care for the guy.

What I'm saying is that it made sense for Alpha Flight to be armored in that instance. They knew from previous experience just how powerful Juggernaut was, so they wanted to be prepared. And I see nothing wrong with that. We can dicker and debate Sasquatch's strength levels as opposed to Cain or the Hulk (and I'm basing this on on-panel power usage, not "facts and figures" that Marvel seems to change at will) until we're blue in the face. The point remains, however, that no matter how strong Walt may be, the Hulk is meant to be the very personification of pure, primal strength born of anger and rage. And that, I believe, should not be underestimated.

Also, I'm sure that with the armor, Alpha Flight believed that they would be able to take down Juggs more quickly, thus keeping the collateral damage in the residential Vancouver area in which they were located to a minimum. Now I realize that collateral damage is just what they caused, but I'm pretty sure that Alpha Flight actually intended exactly the opposite.

Austen may well have botched Alpha Flight. Then again, their recent actions (removing Sammy Pare from the school, attacking Juggernaut in Vancouver) is very reminiscent to me of the Nicieza/Lobdell/Furman run on Alpha Flight, when the team really began to go establishment. And I choose to justify their actions that way. Heather's argument about the mother having the right to withdraw the son was all the justification Alpha Flight needed in that instance. They believed they were doing the right thing by removing Sammy from the school. They only know Juggernaut as an extremely volatile and dangerous super-villain, and they probably honestly were concerned for Sammy's safety. And given that Mac and Heather had just had a daughter of their own, maternal/paternal instincts probably had a role to play in the affair as well.

I'm not sure what the point of my post was, LOL. But essentially, I believe that the armor was a good idea for Alpha Flight at the time. They wanted to be prepared to take down Juggy and take him down hard. They wanted to do so quickly, before the battle spilled out into the rest of what looked to me to be a quiet, suburban area. They didn't really succeed in doing so, but I'm sure that was the idea.

Does this make any sense?

[Phil]

http://forum.alphaflight.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=116

I'd put the actual image here, but it'd scroll the forum.
Go click it and come back ;)

[Ben]

it's just plain wrong....Sasquatch is a great mythical beast, All that armour would do is encumber him and make him less agile. With his due strenght level he could probably fare up against Juggie on his own, with is stenght, speed, agility, and brains.

Ben

[syvalois]

Plus you could say that there is no metal or armour as strong and resistant than Sasquatch himself. You know technology as a limit

[DelBubs]

Sorry, no matter how you dress it up, Mac and Heather didn't need armour cos the are distance fighters and unless Sas's armour increased his strength levels by double, the armour was silly and superfluous.

[beetleblack]

It just looked plain ugly.

Nuff said :)

[ladymako71]

My only thought when I saw the bit with the armor was 'since when is some massively huge strong dude gonna need a few pieces of tin to protect his a**e'? I agree it was a bloody silly thing to have in the first place expecially if Mac and Heather can hit from a distance.

[bigbloo]

Mac and Heather dont need the armor because they have force fields. I have yet to know of any metal that can whitstand physical forces better than a powerful electromagnetic field.

[kozzi24]

I doubt very much that Austen thought as deeply about her as you did when he wrote that one appearance.
Seeing he was being paid to write about the characters, it is inexcusable for him to to have put as much thought into it. He should have put more. If he lacks my innate knowledge from several rereadings, he could have picked up any appearance during Byrne's run--or Mantlo's--and gotten a sense of her speeech patterns. Instead, we saw her talking like Jubilee. My reading "waaaaay too much into it" was also an attempt--this cold analytical abilty unfortunately comes natural to me, so doesn't require as much thought for me as you might think--to make Austen's treatment cohesive, and to give it meaning that could be built off of in the future.

If Alpha Flight was so concerned about the Juggernaut, why did only three members show up? Puck, Snowbird, Shaman and Chuck Moss were active members at the time. Here's a quick battle for you: Moss lifts earth beneath Juggernaut--nothing can move him, but what about the earth beneath him--and Heather shoots a thermal draft through the raised earth, making Juggs airborne. Shaman slows Northstar with any number of tricks from his pouch and/or Northstar heroically sees to Sammy and his parents first. Mac attacks an airborne Jugs, keeping him spinning. While in motion, Jugs doesn't have a sense of up and down. A giant owl swoops down, removes his helmet (although given Austen's tendencies, she would probably swoop down and remove his pants instead.) Another attack coordinated between Mac and Heather keep Jugs spinning and moving, out of control and not realizing how close to the ground he's becoming again. Then, bam, Sasquatch's fist to his face sends Jugs airborne again, in a classic superhero slam that removes Jugs from populated territory. There's Alpha, in their glory, true to all characters and powers and the fact that they are a TEAM. No special armor in sight.

This story should have been separated from Draco into its own trade friendly arc. Draco would have been shortened enough that the same overall issues would have been encompassed. The page time--and the time for the author's thoughts and typing-- given to (literally) gay talk and hints between Northstar and Jugs should have been spent on doing justice to the characters in the story.

Issue 1 of the arc had the flight North.
2: Sasquatch arrives, we see characterization of the long-term emnity between NS and Sas before the issue long fight between Jugs and Sas that leaves Sas downed
3: Alpha arrives
4: continued fight, conclusion, maynbe some much needed characterization interaction between NS and Alpha, including the question (entirely ignored by Austen for two + years now: WHERE THE HELL IS MY SISTER?!

It does call into question why Northstar was brought to X-Men, and the quote on another topic on Alpha Waves.net about Austen's unfulfilled plans with his leaving X-Men.
Add:
+ Black Tom referred to as Jug's boyfriend by Wolverine.
+ Northstar brought in the same time.
+ Northstar established as currently single by attraction to Iceman
+ TELEPATHIC Xavier having NS PILOT (when was that training?) Jugs to Canada
+ Gay talk between NS and Jugs on that flight.
= Juggernaut was going to be the relationship for Northstar, per the writer's intentions from the beginning

You think the armor was spiffy, and I am glad you enjoyed it. Most people didn't, as prior posts on this topic show.
To me it was the hallmark of a lazy writer who considers his "true north" a MAX title like War Machine (WHICH I ENJOYED TREMENDOUSLY.)

If the armor was such an improvement over their normal costumes, logic would dictate that Heather and Mac would have been using them all along. Neither of them are stupid enought to go into the field with anything short of their best equipment.

In my view, the only good excuse for a story that would introduce such armor--especially to a character like Sasquatch--would be a parable of nature over technology: why the armor failed.

[kozzi24]

Thanks for the scan Phil.

We've had kudos to Ben on the site, but the things you do are not overlooked!

[PWalk]

http://forum.alphaflight.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=116

I'd put the actual image here, but it'd scroll the forum.
Go click it and come back ;)

Thanks!

Well I gotta say I like the additional armor on Mac. It fits with the suit well.
On Heather the armor looks as bad as that green and gold outfit they poured her into starting with Vol. 2. Ugh!

And for the armor on Sassy, well it's just plain dumb. I can't think of any advantage it would offer him other than maybe a blast attack of some sort. I've always thought Sas could handle his own with most of the big toughies in the MU.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Well, just color me stupid, then. I'll keep my minority opinions to myself next time, eh? :oops:

[Phil]

My major complaints are the shouler and knee pads, and the pointed helmets.

Take them away and Guardian's would be feasible.
Vindicator's would be pretty much like her V2 costume, so again feasible.

There's the debate over Electromagnetic/Geothermal vs armour, but after the amount of times the Guardian/Vindicator suits have failed, I could be persuaded to see the logic in armour for them, against an armoured Juggernaut.
However here Juggernaut's armourless, and between the experience of Mac & Heather, their ability to fly and attack with force/geothermal beams/whatever from a long range, they seem kinda redundant. Especially with 3 against 1.

But overall, the idea of an armour isn't too out of the question, as the 'Am-Can' suit originally was portrayed as.

Sas however is basically wearing Juggernauts armour once you take off the accessories.

For human Walt, again like the other two, it's feasible, but I don't think he'd need them in Sasquatch form against Juggernaut, and definitely not an armourless Juggernaut.

A flesh eating bacteria like in V2 maybe ( ;) ) but against Juggy... meh, doesn't mesh with me.

[Phil]

Well, just color me stupid, then. I'll keep my minority opinions to myself next time, eh? :oops:

No, no, no.

People are disagreeing with your opinion, not trying to force you to change it.

Your view's as valid and as welcome as anyone else's.

I'm not completely against the armour myself.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

I totally understand where everyone is coming from, and for the vast majority I agree with them...

But I liked the armor, namely because it made Alpha Flight look a lot more modern, and a HELL of a lot bigger and badder. Almost sinister, even.

I don't know what it is. But I approve of it.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Bah, a double-post... but I must. Two points.

First, Mac and Heather are distance fighters, true. But that sure didn't stop Juggy from beating the crap out of Mac, and throwing Heather through a wall, did it? Sure, their suit's electromagnetic fields should have been the equal of any armor they might choose to wear. But like I said, it never hurts to be redundant. Especially when dealing with someone as vicious and powerful as the Juggernaut. And as for Sasquatch himself... I seem to recall, during the 'Rules of Engagement' arc, that he was having a pretty difficult time with Juggernaut. They seemed, to me, to be just about an even match. Juggy bloodied him, and vice versa. And it seemed to be during 'The Draco' that Walt had a personal vendetta against him, which is why I would be willing to wager that it was Walt's own idea to come armored. He wanted that rematch with the Juggernaut. He wanted to beat the crap out of him quickly and painfully.

Second, Snowbird talking like Jubilee. I didn't get this impression once. Sure, her dialogue was a lot less formal and icy as when Byrne had his hands on her, but like someone else said, that may be due not only to the "new", cloned Narya, but also to the fact that perhaps she is simply learning to assimilate easier into human society. Lots of characters' speech patterns change over time, because their circumstances are different.

[Phil]

Thanks for the scan Phil.

We've had kudos to Ben on the site, but the things you do are not overlooked!

Meh.. I just have time on my hands and a head full of informative c**p.
I do nothing really.

[Phil]

Bah, a double-post... but I must. Two points.

First, Mac and Heather are distance fighters, true. But that sure didn't stop Juggy from beating the crap out of Mac, and throwing Heather through a wall, did it?

No, because they were wearing armour rather than their distance suits :P


And as for Sasquatch himself... I seem to recall, during the 'Rules of Engagement' arc, that he was having a pretty difficult time with Juggernaut. They seemed, to me, to be just about an even match. Juggy bloodied him, and vice versa. And it seemed to be during 'The Draco' that Walt had a personal vendetta against him, which is why I would be willing to wager that it was Walt's own idea to come armored. He wanted that rematch with the Juggernaut. He wanted to beat the crap out of him quickly and painfully.

That I'll agree with.
He actually makes a comment in the next issue about it being 'payback.'

Still think it was redundant and just badly designed though :P


Second, Snowbird talking like Jubilee. I didn't get this impression once. Sure, her dialogue was a lot less formal and icy as when Byrne had his hands on her, but like someone else said, that may be due not only to the "new", cloned Narya, but also to the fact that perhaps she is simply learning to assimilate easier into human society. Lots of characters' speech patterns change over time, because their circumstances are different.

I definitely agree with that.
She only had two out of place lines! (And one of the two uses of 'God' at seeing Mac had died.... again. Wouldn't you use it under the circumstances ;) )
It can easily be forgotten about.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

LOL, Phil. Mac had that excuse. What about Heather? She had on... some REALLY BIG guns on her arms. LOL. I wonder if they fired shells or little lava rocks? :lol:

[Phil]

LOL, Phil. Mac had that excuse. What about Heather? She had on... some REALLY BIG guns on her arms.

Well, she appears to in that splash page, but they're never fired once and gone by the next issue. :wink:

[kozzi24]

Part of the appeal of the guarian suit was it being technological but not bulky. If it had been bulky, he hould have been just another Iron Man. Every armored character from Beetle to Box to Mach 4 (insider pun intended) gets compared to Iron Man, as the original Armor Wars made clear. The streamlined version helps make the Alphas distinct.
Another Alpha comparison, obviously, is Vol 1 #11-12, Jaxxon as Box versus Mac. Mac's suit was more advanced, thus had other complications, leading, in part, to his death.

[kozzi24]

My major complaints are the shouler and knee pads,
Mac didn't complain about them on Heather's costume, so she kept them