You Gotta Be Kidding Me : Or Are We Kidding Ourselves ?

[DelBubs]

I haven't got #6 yet, but from what I can garner, general consensus is that it pretty much sucked. Are we out of our loyalty to the book and characters making excuses for what is at the end of the day a pretty bad comic and is Lobdell abusing our loyalty with this mish mash of tardy humour?

AF have taken on Galactus, Doom, The Beyonder, Diablo and numerous other big hitters, so far we have had a revisit to the Plodex who didn't reallly figure in the story, six issues of what? Who's actually jerking off to what here? Is Scott taking our loyalty for granted and expecting us to see what was once a proud team reduced to a circus act for the rest of the MU to take the piss out off? Are we so in need of seeing 'Alpha Flight' on a comic cover that we can't realise when we are being ridiculed?

Scott gave it all that ANDAF and Uncanny AF spiel, what have we really seen? How loyal are we that we are willing to see AF reduced to a carnival side show, as most reviewers (without our history too the book) would have us believe it is?

Who's kidding who here?

[varo]

yes to all above.

[DelBubs]

Now don't get me wrong, I love AF with a passion, but I'm beginning to think that love is being exploited so Scott can get his jollies. When I think back to the Deamqueen arcs, The Master, even Llan, I get to thinking, what the **** is going on? AF should be up there with the Avengers, FF. Walt is a nuclear physicist, not a sequential 'Sideshow Bob' to be used as a foil for a one punchline joke which lost it's impact after one issue.

I know I'm sounding *****y, but my tolerance and need for AF can only be taken advantage off for 'x' amount of time before I start asking "When do I get mine'?

[Sir John A.]

I kinda feel the same way.

I thought the whole 6 issue story could have been pulled off in 3 issues.

Even after 6 issues, what do we know about these new characters? We're not even sure what their powers are!

In 6 issues I've developed no fondness for any of the new characters who all seem to have the same personality and atitude.

Message to Marvel

Get an AF book with the most popular classic characters and a few new ones.

Make sure Guardian is in there. His costume is iconic and will draw in loyal Canadian readers; I can feel my heart jump everytime I see it portrayed by a good artist. No clone, no "super-armour suit", no Dark-Guardian. Make him the real thing and make us proud.

Take the book seriously and Canadians will appreciate it and buy the book.

A writer who is more familiar with Canada would help as well.

[Sir John A.]

I think the best way to descrilbe this series is:

The ANADAF is to Alpha Flight, what "Batman and Robin" was to the Batman movie franchise.

[kozzi24]

No need to apologize, Del. I think the majority of us feel the same way.
I've been supportive because of the title of the book. I've been vocal about he things I haven't liked from the beginning, and have tried to balance it with the redeeming qualities that the book does possess.

But don't blame Scott in entirety. I remember an early interview that stated he had made two pitches to Marvel, AF and "Hellions" and he was told to combine the two.

I would have been whole-heartedly more supportive and less critical of this book if it was titled "Sasquatch" with the focus on Walt. That leads to less expectation for the rest of the true AF, and would have mandated more attention on a beloved character.

I surprised my retailer (W!ldtime comics, North Attleboro, Massachusetts) by telling him I did not want this title on my pull list as Alpha has always been my #1 book. (I read sci-fi type comics only, and was introduced to AF in Crystar and liked them enough to have picked up issues of AF available at the same time, maybe somewhere around 19 or 20. Super hero titles gradually followed.

To date, I have picked up every issue of the new series. Let's see... #7 & 8 have the new Alpha fighting was figures of American heroes while Aurora & Madison are still tentatively tied to Weapon X, Northstar in X-Mansion limbo and the rest of the core characters lost in space or general Marvel limbo. And Clayton won't be drawing the issues.

I'll give the next ish a flip thru and keep a wait and see attitude.

[Mokole]

I can sympathize but I'm not giving up on AF. I stuck through version 1 even though I hated the Heather Hudson stuff from day one and couldn't understand how a superhero team would allow so many walking wounded into it's fold (Aurora, Northstar, Pathway, Goblyn, Persuasion all had various problems that would preclide any of them from being on a superhero team, let alone a baseball team) I stayed with v1 AF. I really liked Madison Box Jeffries even when they screwed around with him. I liked Feedback and he disappeared. I NEVER liked Heather Hudson and there she was, issue in and out for 150 issues through v2.

If Lobdell gets the message to cut the garbage out (like knowing they're in a comic book). And gets a bit more realistic with their actions, we'll have no problems. But if issue #12 is another attempt by Scott to "yuck it up" at our expense (the marriage of Plodex thing to Nemesis! Or Major Mapleleaf gets a bikini wax, oh how funny) AF will disappear for, oh, 20 years.

We know he reads here and Boardhost and he'll be reading how many of you are dropping this book. I won't, my kids like it (they like the art and characters, the garbage attempts at humour they hate). But again I understand. I want to see Sasquatch clock Juggernaut, Centenniel flatten Iceman, Puck knock out Cyclops and Emma Frost, MML and YJ take out all of the Academy X beanie babies, and not one idiotic joke thrown in. I like these characters and want to keep them around, especially Puck and MML. If Scott cares about these characters he's created and wants ANADAF to succeed then he'll stop goofing around.

Enough goofy 'homages' to Uncanny X-Men, enough pot shots at the X-Men, enough homages to Byrne AF. Let's get Alpha Flight up to respectability. No humour superhero book can last, none have. As good as Deadpool was it lasted to what, issue 25 before the humour was erased? Even the Exiles get to be heroes.

Scott, you never treated the X-Men or Generation X like buffoons, WHY ALPHA FLIGHT??

As I keep saying I like the characters and the basic plot but the scripting needs work. Where are Marts, Moore, and Ryan in all this? Austen screwed with Alpha Flight and Marvel and caught hell from fans tons.

Mr. Lobdell, please respond.

[crozack]

Oh, my God.

I've said all of this before and I'll say it again:

-Lobdell has always been more of a character-centric writer, not action-oritented. Even on X-Men, Generation X and Fantastic Four, there was plenty of humor and character-driven scenes. I am surprised you referenced those books, as this title looks exactly like his writing on those titles. If you want action, then you are on the wrong book.

-These first six issues weren't the meat of this series by far. Lobdell has the unenviable task to take a title that is quite possibly the most abused in all the Marvel Universe, and make it garner new readers. Thus, he introduced a completely new cast, while keeping the most popular original Alpha Flight character he could use. But, in order to not get all of the mystery surrounding these characters out of the way in the first arc, he chose to keep it minimal and get the original Alpha Flight team out of the way. Mission Accomplished.

-Now, he can, over the course of the next few issues, explore the histories and mysteries around these new characters, without having the baggage of the Plodex (a race that was never fully explored before) or the original Alphans. Have you noticed a trend with the popularity of the new characters? The most popular ones are the ones that have the most about their origins revealed. Look for the popularity of the new Puck, Yukon Jack and Centennial to definitely rise to the point where Major Mapleleaf and Nemesis are now.

This title can only go up.

[Phil]

I enjoyed it.

And no-one can tell me, or anyone else, what I can and can't enjoy. Got that crozack?

Now try and call me a fanboy.

[Mokole]

Oh, my God.

I've said all of this before and I'll say it again

OK fine. But I have very personal reasons for wanting to see AF succeed, this AF especially. The less important one is that I'm Canadian and the more important one only my wife knows (it really has little, if anything, to do with my children).

Two years ago someone asked me what comic would be good for kids, all I could think of was Ultimate Spider-Man. He asked a few other people and got the same answer.

My boys watch tv like most, and they like Justice League and Spongebob and Transformers et al. But do they want JLA comics, or Batman, or Spider-Man?? No way, they refuse to look at them. One of my boys wanted a transformers comic. I bought it, we read it, he doesn't want to see it again. So now all we buy is Alpha Flight for them because they want to read it (or have me do it) and I believe that learning to read with comics added in is part of a good ELA schedule.

If this Alpha Flight fails I won't get what I need as I mentioned in the first paragraph.

Of all the characters who has Lobdell hit bang on? Easily Heather Hudson. They save her and her fisrt words are "You didn't call the Avengers"? then she gives them a backhanded compliment. Then she nags Mac. Heather all the way, just how she was since 1983.

I like how Centenniel grew in the last issue, as well as Puck and Major Mapleleaf. Maybe in issue 7 or 8 we'll get to see some of Puck's other abilities. I don't want to see Alpha Flight die so soon. I have my reasons.

X-Statix, Captain Marvel, Thanos, Namor, all were pretty poor ideas to begin with and all died early. AF has no need to go that way and I don't want it to, even if it's just so my boys have a good accessible group of superheroes not named Homer or Bart. I like ANADAF and so do they, let's keep it around. Sorry I keep being so verbose, Phil & Ben.

[Phil]

YOU have nothing to apologise for.
You give your reasons in an intelligent well thought out way.
You don't try to force them upon others.

[varo]

i didn't like it, but i will never drop this book.


i just hope it goes on for a 100 more issues.

[DelBubs]

Just a few points to clarify things. When I first heard about AF getting a Vol 3, I was ecstatic. When other books I collect have been canned then I've said 'there ya go, lets look for a replacement'. Each demise of AF has hurt, if that makes me a saddo fanboy, then so be it. I just cannot get around the idea, that somhow the loyalty of AF fans is being exploited a tad. If this was volume 1, then no problem, I would stick with it. It is funny in places and some of the characters are very likeable, but this isn't volume 1, it's vol 3. AF have over twenty five years of history, Wolverine, probably the biggest thing in the MU is inextricably tid to them, his origin owes as much to them as it does the Weapon X prog. AF have fought in numerous Infinity thingies, been involved in Secre Wars 2 and Sas played a large part in the original and best Contest of Champions. I personally do not believe that as of yet vol 3 has been a suitable homage to this great team.

That said however, I'm here for the duration, but I'd rather that loyalty fans have to the book was seen as somthing more than a selling point.

Scott went into this with a great deal of enthusiasm, this however seems to have waned over the last few months, ours, however hasn't.

[Legerd]

Although I'm not happy with this version of AF I'm not going to stop buying the book. As long as the book is being published there is the chance for it to change into something more to my tastes. I don't mind humour in a superhero book (Deadpool being a good example) when the humour comes from the character(s) and not the situation or the writer. (As in AF#6 with the charcacters stepping outside the comic.) Would it be so bad if Scott wrote the book with a serious tone while the characters did the jokes?
I have to admit I agree with Del about feeling like AF (and we fans) are the butt of a bad joke right now. I have patiently waited for issue #6 and I find myself extremely disappointed now that it's arrived. It seems to be neither here nor there. The series doesn't have much (if any) action, yet it's not cerebral enough to get by on story alone. It's filled with humour, but it's all so forced it's not funny. We waited for the old team to show up, yet they were only there for a couple of pages and now they're gone, effectively dead since they're going off into space for Scott only knows how long. And the new team didn't so much rescue them as, through their bumbling actions, accidently freed them.
I love AF. I want to love this new series, I really do, but as it is right now I don't. I will, however, continue to purchase the book to keep it alive, and I will keep voicing my opinion until I'm happy with it.

[varo]

#4 was a perfect example of how this book can be succesful, with funny backhanded remarks BETWEEN THE CHARACTERS.

i just don't see how the general public, not us loyal af fans are gonna continue to pick this book up.

bad end to a 6 issue story arc, and next issue is alpha fighting.......


wax statues.


*sigh*

[Phil]

The main thing that I'd say that needs addressing is the bloody solicits.
They do nothing at all for the book.

[Ben]

The AF series honestly needs to change to survive. I personally like it, and have been enjoying it, but the numbers speak for themselves eh? There are many of us that will be loyal to AF no matter what, but would rather see it take a new direction. Honestly though, waterver you opinions on how the book should be are, express them to Marvel. Send those letters in, let marvel know that you do care enough about the book and the characters to want to see it survive. Let the company know what the fans most want to see, whatever direction you want to see the book go in.

Ben

[Le Messor]

I think the best way to descrilbe this series is:

The ANADAF is to Alpha Flight, what "B****** *** R****" was to the Batman movie franchise.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Film That Dare Not Mention It's Name!
Stone The Unclean One!

*PUff, puff, pant...*
You said it you actually said it. *retch* *shudder*....

I'm okay now.


He Mentioned it by name! Let's get him!
Destroy them all!!!

Sorry...

I'll calm down soon...

- Le Messor
"Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing."

[Snowbird]

It's nice to know I'm not alone in my misgivings about Alpha's most recent incarnation. I've really enjoyed the new characters. I think the designs are solid, the origins are innovative, and the personalities aren't the usual cookie-cutter swipes Marvel has come to rely on so heavily in recent years.

I desperately want to see the book succeed and find myself terribly disheartened when it fails so resolutely to reach (what I perceive) is its potential. There are more than a few of us out there that are tired of 'Nu Marvel' and would jump at the chance for an old fashion super-hero yarn sans all the Authority, Ultimates, and New X-men influences.

What bothers me is that all the pieces for that kind of old fashioned romp are right there in plain sight but are being constantly obscured behind such forced attempts at comedy. Light-hearted humour is inherent in the concept itself. Don't try so hard. It's distracting.

[Canucklehead]

I actually enjoyed this issue. Yes the humor was a bit forced and out of place and the end seemed a bit rushed... But other then that, I have no problem with the ending. I didn't find it anti-climantic. With all of the unoriginality in the industry out there today, it's actually nice to be surprised by a book these days. If anything I found the ending a bit old school marvel. When was the last time you saw Hudson smile?

I believe this makes way for great potential future stories. You can't assume Lobdell wrote the first arc without having a plan. Everything happens for a reason. The fact that Snowbird gets a revamp is enough evidence to show that the originals will return at some point. Meanwhile the new recruits can grow and learn without having "Uncanny" look over their shoulders all the time.

Yes the humor isn't always bang on, but at least he's trying to be different then all the other books out there. What would you prefer? The old group fighting for Mutant rights? Fight Apocolypes by issue #3? What better way to learn about new characters then to see where they stand on certain moral issues instead of beating the crap out of some villain right off the bat. The villains will come. The powers will be explained. At least now we know WHO our heroes are.

I predict the powers will be explained in the next two issues. They sound like action issues to me. Wow, something to look forward to instead of having everything given away in the first couple issues. I'm very excited about this series and hopefully poeple will stick around and give it a chance before labelling it a failer before it's barely begun! (I'm talking about the 10% drop in sales per issue, not anyone here)

Anywho, that's me 37 cents.
D.

[jay042]

I'll still pick up the book, out of loyalty, but I am hoping Scott is paying attention to the fans thoughts on this and does consider making some changes in the future to fit his audience.

[Legerd]

I'm all for letting a story develop at its own pace, it's more the aborted action that frustrated me. No, I don't expect every book to be wall to wall fisticuffs, but everytime there was about to be a fight scene, it was edited, preempted or merely abreviated. It's like Scott was being a tease with the action. He'll have to fill the next two books with a little of the ultra-violence to make up for the lack of it through the first six. Besides, how are we to discover what the characters can do if they never do anything?!

I took your advice Ben and sent an e-mail saying what I liked and didn't like and what I would like to see changed. I even challenged Scott to write a storyline of epic proportions, the kind we only see in Avengers or X-men. Hopefully, the idea will get stuck in his head, and he'll come up with something. The next step will be to snail mail them and request a few villain appearances.

[Phil]

bad end to a 6 issue story arc, and next issue is alpha fighting.......


wax statues.


*sigh*

a) Bad in your opinion. I enjoyed it.
b) Have you read Scott's scripts for next issue? Have you? Do you know for sure it's sigh-worthy?

[varo]

exactly. bad in my opinion, never said my opinion should be everyones else.

also the fact that next issues villians are "wax statues" just doesn't rank up their of the heiarchy of marvel villians.

although i am sure there will be someone behind manipulating them.

be a fan not a fanatic. i have been around since volume 1 #1 when i was 8 years old, no one wants to see this series succeed as much as me, i just hope things turn around quickly and the team is treated with a ounce of respect.


and i would love to hear your synopsis on the script for next issue, since you seem to think it's possible for fans to get early versions of scripts.

[Phil]

exactly. bad in my opinion, never said my opinion should be everyones else.

Technically you did, because you never stated it was an/your opinion.
You said it WAS a bad ending, implying that as a fact.


also the fact that next issues villians are "wax statues" just doesn't rank up their of the heiarchy of marvel villians.

You cannot say this without having read it though, surely???


i just hope things turn around quickly and the team is treated with a ounce of respect.

They're a new team though!!!
Why do things have to turn around?


and i would love to hear your synopsis on the script for next issue, since you seem to think it's possible for fans to get early versions of scripts.

Never once stated I'd read it or know anything about it, or that I think it's possible for fans to get early versions.
You're the one who seems convinced that it's going to be sigh-worthy, three weeks before it's out.
The only way to know if it was sigh-worthy would be to have seen it, surely?
I'm open and waiting to actually have the issue in my hand before flaming and trolling it(not accusing you of such, just a general statement of my belief system).

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

In regards to the comment about the team not being treated with respect... how exactly have they been treated disrespectfully? In my estimation, they've been treated with a LOT of respect, considering that the original Alpha Flight is allowing them the honor and responsibility as serving as their country's first line of defense against superpowered threats.

Also, respect is not given, it's EARNED. They're all still very new, with the exception of Walter and Nemesis. They're all still wet behind the ears. With time will come the respect that you don't seem to perceive they're already getting.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I can't in good conscience continue to buy this book...I may pick up 7, but that may be all, if the bad story-telling continues. The art's great, but not THAT great.

The ending was terrible....not worth all the build up(what there was of it....more like standing around picking their noses). Scott's vision of AF has really disappointed me. I really despise the "written for trade, dragging everything out and wasting comic space" style....I won't apologize for being irked by it.....I'm paying three bucks for this comic!!!

I love Alpha Flight(the real one) and I despise the clowns that have replaced them. Not that I hate the new characters....just the whole idea of making every issue of AF a joke.

Dana

[Ben]

I can't in good conscience continue to buy this book...I may pick up 7, but that may be all, if the bad story-telling continues. The art's great, but not THAT great.

The ending was terrible....not worth all the build up(what there was of it....more like standing around picking their noses). Scott's vision of AF has really disappointed me. I really despise the "written for trade, dragging everything out and wasting comic space" style....I won't apologize for being irked by it.....I'm paying three bucks for this comic!!!

I love Alpha Flight(the real one) and I despise the clowns that have replaced them. Not that I hate the new characters....just the whole idea of making every issue of AF a joke.

Dana


It's really too bad you feel that way Dana. I kind of see comic book buying like voting. If you don't vote, you loose the right to complain about the government, and if you don't buy a comic, you loose the right to complain about it. Why not do something constructive, rather than destructive if you aren't enjoying it? Honestly people, the overall attitude of the "nay sayers" makes me question a few things. As a fan, would you rather not support the book, to keep it going, under the hopes it will later be more to you liking? (rather than an other cancelled book). Wouldn't it be better if you bought the book, and with each issue expressed you concerns to Marvel in a constructive way? All this negative attitude I've been seeing will accomplish is for us to loose our AF title, and probably for good this time.

No, this is NOT the same Alpha Flight as we all grew up with...but guess what? That Alpha Flight got Cancelled. The relaunches have been different to try and find a niche for AF. If all you want is to see the old style AF, and you aren't willing to accept the new book for what it is, and enjoy it for what it is, then go ahead and read your back issues over and over again. Personally, I'll take any AF over no AF. If you are a fan, you will do what you can to support the book, and express your opinions to Marvel if you are interested in having the style change. If there are enough people who express the same opinions, then it might change. Isn't that hope and positivity much better than blind negativity, and abandoning something that you you love?

I'm sure that rant needs proofing, but I gotta run.

Ben

[Phil]

I disagree with Ben on a few points here;

I don't see that buying a comic gives you the right to complain about it; You CHOSE to buy it, no-one forced you. If you hate it and feel cheated/like you wated your money that's your own fault.

If you don't like what you're reading - stop buying it; sales speak volumes. Why spend money on something you hate?

[Mokole]

Well, as I see it action is needed. Not every issue but it's kind of silly to say 'Major Mapleleaf has biocentric power blasts' in issue #2 and as of issue #6 we have no idea what that looks like, how it's produced, what it does, etc. Does he use his hands, his eyes, his torso? Could it knock down a wall, or pulverize one?

And we know Zuzha has powers as of issue #3, What we have no idea. Can she increase strength, understand any language, talk to animals, shield herself from psychic powers of any kind, use magic, defeat magic, change shape, stealth modes...?

It's like Cyclops never using his eyebeam. How many issues could his character last without opening the visor and doing what he exists in comics for? We don't read Alpha Flight to see them go grocery shopping, we want them to be the heroes and do hero things.

OK so the Podex were eggs and didn't need fighting. Will the wax statues? Whatever threat shows up in issue #9? I certainly expect it.

Maybe Lobdell thought Ross would be the better one to do action so that's why he gets 7 and 8. Then we'll see power blasts and Zuzha's powers that got her on AF in the first place.

I have high hopes for this Alpha Flight. I intend to push and see it through to at least issue #50. If Scott reads this he'll know why.

Go Zuzha!

[cmdrkoenig67]

No, this is NOT the same Alpha Flight as we all grew up with...but guess what? That Alpha Flight got Cancelled. The relaunches have been different to try and find a niche for AF. If all you want is to see the old style AF, and you aren't willing to accept the new book for what it is, and enjoy it for what it is, then go ahead and read your back issues over and over again. Personally, I'll take any AF over no AF. If you are a fan, you will do what you can to support the book, and express your opinions to Marvel if you are interested in having the style change. If there are enough people who express the same opinions, then it might change. Isn't that hope and positivity much better than blind negativity, and abandoning something that you you love?
Ben

Ben, I can see some logic in the points you made, but I do disagree with a few of them.

Yes...the original AF was cancelled...after 130 issues. Why should the book continue to be all-new, all different every time it is relaunched? Why do they keep trying to find a niche for it?.....It already HAS a niche, for heaven's sake!! I seem to recall many folks(including me) were angry that more of the original AF was not in Vol. 2, as well.....why didn't Marvel listen then? Why do they continue to experiment?

You may be able to just settle for any "Alpha Flight" rather than no AF, but I don't see it that way. If I were a fan, you say? I AM A FAN of Alpha Flight, not the punchline that Marvel is trying to turn them into. New characters don't bother me, but this series is ridiculous. I love new characters(heroes and villains)....I loved Talisman, when she was introduced, Purple Girl, Dream Queen....and many more....I even like Centennial and Mapleleaf Jr....the others, I don't care for(although they've not been developed much either).

I DO accept the new book for what it is....a comic written by a guy who is wasting time getting where he's going with the story, making fun of Canada, Canadian superheroes...and showing the original team to be a group who can't handle a ship(that's a lot older than 3000 years, Scott) they handled quite well, many years ago. Scott doesn't seem to have any respect fo AF.....why shuffle the originals off, while making another new team of goofballs for us to laugh at? I think I will write Marvel, though....you have a good point there.

Dana

[Ben]

Please don't get me wrong Dana, I didn't by any means intend to imply you are not a fan, if that were the case, you would not hold your views as passionately as you do. The message was typed in a hurry as I was being rushed out the door.

I guess the overall intent was for me to say that in my mind we have all stuck through AF thick and thin. We dealt with some really low times, and they have come back up. Personally I don't feel like I am settling or making due with this series as is, I love it, however for those who don't I feel it is worth supporting.

I, as a proud Canadian don't feel like the book is mocking me, my country, or my culture. It does stretch and make fun of some steriotypes. It's mocking the steriotypes, not the culture. I know for a fact that Scott is a long time AF fan. He wants this book to work as much as the rest of us. He's been putting a lot of time, effor, thought and care into creating something for the fans to love, as he is a fan himself.

You see I am by nature a very positive person. I see the glass half full. This past week or so there has been an abnormal amout of negativity on the forum, which really came up out of the blue. The positive, friendly nature was/is something that sets this place apart from many of the others out there. I get deffensive when it come to either negativity about AF, or a negative feel on this great place we have formed here.

Ben





Ben, I can see some logic in the points you made, but why I disagree with a few of them.

Yes...the original AF was cancelled...after 130 issues. Why should the book continue to be all-new, all different every time it is relaunched? Why do they keep trying to find a niche for it?.....It already HAS a niche, for heaven's sake!! I seem to recall many folks(including me) were angry that more of the original AF was not in Vol. 2, as well.....why didn't Marvel listen then? Why do they continue to experiment?

You may be able to just settle for any "Alpha Flight" rather than no AF, but I don't see it that way. If I were a fan, you say? I AM A FAN of Alpha Flight, not the punchline that Marvel is trying to turn them into. New characters don't bother me, but this series is ridiculous. I love new characters(heroes and villains)....I loved Talisman, when she was introduced, Purple Girl, Dream Queen....and many more....I even like Centennial and Mapleleaf Jr....the others, I don't care for(although they've not been developed much either).

I DO accept the new book for what it is....a comic written by a guy who is wasting time getting where he's going with the story, making fun of Canada, Canadian superheroes...and showing the original team to be a group who can't handle a ship(that's a lot older than 3000 years, Scott) they handled quite well, many years ago. Scott doesn't seem to have any respect fo AF.....why shuffle the originals off, while making another new team of goofballs for us to laugh at? I think I will write Marvel, though....you have a good point there.

Dana

[jay042]

You see I am by nature a very positive person. I see the glass half full. This past week or so there has been an abnormal amout of negativity on the forum, which really came up out of the blue. The positive, friendly nature was/is something that sets this place apart from many of the others out there. I get deffensive when it come to either negativity about AF, or a negative feel on this great place we have formed here.


Ben, I think that is the problem with a lot of fandom, the lack of optimisim and positive attitude towards something people say they love. All you ever hear are fans *****ing and moaning about what's wrong with a series, and hardly ever what's good about it. I must admit I fall into that attitude a lot, but the more I think about it I want to try and avoid it from now on.

[DelBubs]

As I started this thread, and have not been overly impressed so far, I shall refrain from commenting on any more issues, unless positive. That way my *****ing and moaning won't offend.

[kozzi24]

There's a world of difference between *****ing and moaning and giving complaint with concrete examples of what didn't work for you and why. I have seen bits of improvement on things that were complained about intelligently on earlier issues.

[Mokole]

There's a world of difference between *****ing and moaning and giving complaint with concrete examples of what didn't work for you and why. I have seen bits of improvement on things that were complained about intelligently on earlier issues.

I agree. There do seem to be changes in style based on what people said. Maybe, hopefully, that'll mean issues 7-beyond will have less cornball stuff and more action. Or simply more seriousness when danger warrants it.

[Ottawa Renegade]

I haven't got #6 yet, but from what I can garner, general consensus is that it pretty much sucked. Are we out of our loyalty to the book and characters making excuses for what is at the end of the day a pretty bad comic and is Lobdell abusing our loyalty with this mish mash of tardy humour?

I must admit, I drop by here only after having read the newest issue. There were times when I read peoples' reviews and thought they sounded like someone trying to convince him or herself that this was actually a good book. I don't KNOW that, and I admit I could be totally wrong, but it was sometimes the impression I had.

We all WANT to love it...

[Ottawa Renegade]

But don't blame Scott in entirety. I remember an early interview that stated he had made two pitches to Marvel, AF and "Hellions" and he was told to combine the two.

Good point. He may be a little restricted in what he has to work with. And no one can question his enthusiasm.

[Ottawa Renegade]

The main thing that I'd say that needs addressing is the bloody solicits.
They do nothing at all for the book.

Oh, God, those are painful and borderline insulting. Who the hell do we write to for that?

[cmdrkoenig67]

I think the solicits are a bit absurd as well....and frankly...a turn off. I also think Del's starting this thread was a good thing....it may have a somewhat negative air to it, but not overly so(I even pointed out a couple of the things I LIKE about the book). I'm not digging the book(overall), but I love Alpha Flight.....such is my dilemma. I'll probably have to be content with the odd issue here and there, that strikes my fancy(like the issue with Flashback).

Dana

Edited for those pesky typos....grrrrr!

[Mokole]

I figure I'll be sticking in for the long haul. Only things that can really drive me away:

- it gets goofier
- Zuzha has no powers and is just eye candy
- action occurs in less than 25% of the issues

I guess that's it. I really want Zuzha and MML to be great characters but great characters in superhero comics either have great powers or above average human powers with something else (Judd's fighting ability, languages, understanding of magic, and excellent experience, Batman's technology and drive).

After all, I don't want to be reduced to hoping Northstar's Alpha Squadron House team has a cool Canadian on it. I'm not crazy about Wolverine being the only 'Canadian' in mainstream Marveldom when Alpha Flight is on the wayside.

So I'll keep my Alpha Flight buy ups going. Only a week and a half to #7 and then #8, and that Flashback storyline in 9-12, and then....

Would be nice if Mr. Lobdell posted here again soon.

[Sir John A.]

There were times when I read peoples' reviews and thought they sounded like someone trying to convince him or herself that this was actually a good book. I don't KNOW that, and I admit I could be totally wrong, but it was sometimes the impression I had.

Same here.

[Nalyd Psycho]

Honestly, if it was to change direction, it would probably have a hard time holding my interest...

[Phil]

- Zuzha has no powers and is just eye candy

I don't know where people are getting this notion from.

I'm seeing powers.

[kozzi24]

Are you seeing powerrs or implications that she has powers?

[Mokole]

Are you seeing powerrs or implications that she has powers?

In issue #4 she says "powers I'm not supposed to have" and "promised to explain how I got my special abilities"

The second is more vague but both clearly state she's not just an acrobat, she has powers and gymnastics ain't a power - just watch the Olympics to see that born out ;)

[kozzi24]

So we haven't SEEN powers. After six issues, that is a definite lapse.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

There's only been a hint at one possible power: her speaking from the womb. Be that as it may, we should've seen something by now. Maybe her power is something low-key, something that wouldn't necessarily be used in a combat situation?

Then again, if Walter knows of her powers and their use(s), why would he have recruited her into Alpha Flight? Not just because of her familial connections. I certainly wouldn't recruit any of Heather's siblings into Alpha Flight just because they're related to Heather. And why recruit someone who's just merely acrobatically adept (with little to no combat training - unless you count beating down drunks in a bar combat training :lol: ) into a team when you could just as easily draft a few Mounties or Canadian military men? At least they'd stand a fighting chance.

Does anyone see what I'm getting at here?

[Barnacle13]

There's only been a hint at one possible power: her speaking from the womb. Be that as it may, we should've seen something by now. Maybe her power is something low-key, something that wouldn't necessarily be used in a combat situation?

?

I don't know if she spoke from the womb she either had a really loud voice and an extremely elevated IQ for a fetus or she has telepathic/empathic abilities. How else are you gonna talk from the womb? I guess she could have kicked in Morse code, but that seems like a little bit of a stretch to me.

Barnacle

[Phil]

I'm seeing powers.

[cmdrkoenig67]

AFAIC...Zuzha is boring, She's this volume's Murmur(in my opinion)...and I hated Murmur too.

Again...I love Alpha Flight, but I'd rather it go into limbo than be known to the general non-AF fan as one of Marvel's comedic fluff books. AF is being written as a joke and it will be taken as such by the public....that REALLY bothers me....I don't know why it doesn't bother others, as much.

If you're a newer fan...I can understand, but those older fans who are just settling for the comedy version....why in heaven's name would you do that? I apologize for the rant...I'm just very unsatisfied with Marvel in general and AF is one of my old favorites...I feel it's being ruined and if it's cancelled because of this comedy crap, it may never come back. AFAIC, changes need to be made or the book will be forever known as a joke.

Dana

[Ben]

AFAIC...Zuzha is boring, She's this volume's Murmur(in my opinion)...and I hated Murmur too.

Again...I love Alpha Flight, but I'd rather it go into limbo than be known to the general non-AF fan as one of Marvel's comedic fluff books. AF is being written as a joke and it will be taken as such by the public....that REALLY bothers me....I don't know why it doesn't bother others, as much.

If you're a newer fan...I can understand, but those older fans who are just settling for the comedy version....why in heaven's name would you do that? I apologize for the rant...I'm just very unsatisfied with Marvel in general and AF is one of my old favorites...I feel it's being ruined and if it's cancelled because of this comedy crap, it may never come back. AFAIC, changes need to be made or the book will be forever known as a joke.

Dana

I can only speak for myself, but I am in now way "settling" for this series. I am enjoying it for what it is, which is admitedly different from other versions of Alpha Flight. The book really isn't a joke book, or a comedy book, it's a comic book with a stronger than usual comedic side. If new things and new styles were tried, things would get very stagnent very fast. I have been enjoying what Scott has been doing with the book, and will defend it in a heartbeat.

Ben

[PWalk]

I really think the comedy on this volume works! It's nice to have a book that isn't so serious all the time.

I've found it to be an absolute pleasure to read.

[ed brisson]

I really think the comedy on this volume works! It's nice to have a book that isn't so serious all the time.

I've found the exact opposite. The jokes are too infrequent, too obvious and too out of place to work.

The one gag that made me gag, and to me is symptomatic of what is wrong with Scott Lobdell's writing is the "floating head" joke from issue #6. To me, this sort of humour is not funny, nor smart. Lobdell writes so that the characters are aware that they are just characters in a comic book, but never uses it for anything more than (attempted) cheap laughs. If he pushed it further maybe it might be funny, or at the very least somewhat interesting. However, he never does, so it never is.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I really think the comedy on this volume works! It's nice to have a book that isn't so serious all the time.

I've found it to be an absolute pleasure to read.

I agree in having a book that has lighter moments...I just don't like it being taken to this degree.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

I can only speak for myself, but I am in now way "settling" for this series. I am enjoying it for what it is, which is admitedly different from other versions of Alpha Flight. The book really isn't a joke book, or a comedy book, it's a comic book with a stronger than usual comedic side. If new things and new styles were tried, things would get very stagnent very fast. I have been enjoying what Scott has been doing with the book, and will defend it in a heartbeat.

Ben

That's a different stand than you took on page 2 of this thread, Ben. You stated that you'd rather have any AF, than no AF. It's probably not what you meant, but it sounds like you're settling. If you really do like the series as it is, that's fine. It's how you feel and I'm not trying to change anyone's viewpoint.....I'm just stating my own.

Someone had stated here or elsewhere(not sure in what thread), that folks sounded like they were pretending to like the series, because they didn't want it to be cancelled again. It's not selling well, because(and this is just my personal observation) it's not Alpha Flight(at least in the truest sense)....or not the Alpha Flight most fans want to see, which from what I've read here and elsewhere....is that fans want the original team around in some way(a part of the book they were meant to be in....not sent off into space/ignored/killed off/whatever).

I tend to compare AF to the Fantastic Four....You can have guest members and temporary fill-ins(like She-Hulk, Power Man, Medusa or Crystal), but without most of the original Four....it's just not the FF. I'm not a fan of the Avengers, but I feel the same way about them....without some of the originals(or Captain America)....it's not the Avengers(if it's just seven strangers, picked to live in Avengers Mansion, then it's the Real World-Avengers). I hope that makes sense, but it's how I feel.

The AF relaunches without the original AF, just don't do it for me....I'm tired of scads of new characters being called Alpha Flight(and never being developed, then cancelled because nobody knows them or cares to know them....IMO, example: the sad bunch of rip-off "heroes" of Vol. 2), when all I want to see is the old characters given their due....it IS their book, after all.....they were here first(and best).

Dana

[Mokole]

Sometimes change is good, sometimes not. For FF it makes no sense to have new team members since the whole premise for the book was that these 4 people accidentally got mutated by cosmic rays at the same time and nobody else did. Relatively speaking they're unique.

The Avengers are more 'flavour of the month'. Captain America and Iron Man are the big 2 but who else is that big? Avengers don't have access to characters who fit well into Team Mondo like the Justice League (Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, Batman, and Wonder Woman).

I don't see Thor, Hulk, Wolverine, or Spider-Man fitting into the Avengers role. Sure they are big characters but often I ask, "and how is this possible? Hulk Smash, Parker is a kid in a city who doesn't leave the city, Thor is a goofy myth guy..." Secondary characters like Black Panther, Giant Man, Ant Man, She-Hulk, Wonder Man, Wasp, Yellowjacket, Scarlet Witch, and so on populate the Avengers, not unlike AF. Same with the X-Men, the original idea can encompass a lot of people over time (Wolverine, Gambit, Rogue, Storm,...)

And although a lot of people like Byrne AF a lot of people don't. I'm clearly no Hudson fan. I don't like the Quicksilver knockoffs much. I think the current AF roster is better than that. My one beef so far is Zuzha has no powers, why is she considered a superhero blah blah. I'm buying this AF as much for the characters as the fact it's AF. Honestly I wouldn't be buying this AF if it was Hudson, Heather, Shaman, Puck, Sasquatch, Twins, Snowbird, and/or Marrina. I mostly find those characters derivative and boring.

[seroquel]

all of the characters were crappy and derivative when they were invented. i mean byrne said it himself, he made them up to go toe to toe with the xmen nothing more. but then... magically inspite of the marvel universe, they got to be interesting with personalities and problems.
i truly think that AF was the precurser to mulligan's xforce (another theory for another time).

i would settle for a mixed bag. new and old. really it just depends. adequate characterization and some relatively interesting plot and they could make a book better than most of the marvels happening right now.
i don't think this book is bad (i actually rather enjoyed it when i took it for what it is) but i would like to see some of the older characters. if lobdell wants, have the old characters be amusing. it is certainly possible. but i guess i agree, walt is good, but it still isn't really alpha flight (even though i get that conceptually alpha flight is a gov't team full of whoever they say).

[Ben]

I can only speak for myself, but I am in now way "settling" for this series. I am enjoying it for what it is, which is admitedly different from other versions of Alpha Flight. The book really isn't a joke book, or a comedy book, it's a comic book with a stronger than usual comedic side. If new things and new styles were tried, things would get very stagnent very fast. I have been enjoying what Scott has been doing with the book, and will defend it in a heartbeat.

Ben

That's a different stand than you took on page 2 of this thread, Ben. You stated that you'd rather have any AF, than no AF. It's probably not what you meant, but it sounds like you're settling. If you really do like the series as it is, that's fine. It's how you feel and I'm not trying to change anyone's viewpoint.....I'm just stating my own.

My statement earlier in the thread was not in reference to my own opinions of the book, it was in reff to those who were willing to just blindly turn thier backs on the book if they didn't like the current direction. My own opinion is that it's good, but in times past I have stuck through some bad times when I did not like the books direction, and am glad for it, as it came back around to a direction I did like not too long after. I kept supporting the book regardless. At that time you could say that I settle, or you could say that I took the optimistic stance and waited out a stretch or writing or art that I didn't like as much.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

What really gets me are all of these people who are SURPRISED that the original Alpha Flight members aren't regular in the book, when the book CLEARLY says in the title: All-New, All-Different Alpha Flight. Call me crazy, but I was expecting the book to focus on new characters.

Also, for anyone to say that the original characters haven't gotten their due is just ridiculous. Not to say that they've been developed nearly as completely as the X-Men or the Avengers or the Fantastic Four, but it's not like they were here one minute and gone the next.

I like to try out new characters. It's fun. I was fond of Radius, Flex, Murmur, Ghost Girl, AND Manbot from the second series, and I was fond of Earthmover (and I can't see why people seem to hate him so much... what's he ever done to anyone?). And I love these new characters. They're unique and they have a very playful, funny dynamic that keeps me grinning while fully expecting them to kick total ass.

Someone pointed out before that the original Alpha Flight was derivative, and created simply to flesh out Logan's backstory and give the X-Men some new blood to tussle with. Now while I know that Alpha Flight's original members have really come into their own, I know that the same thing can happen to the NEW members if people would just give them a chance. Believe me, if Alpha Flight as a whole had JUST come out instead of in the 70s-80s (the date escapes me), I'd be willing to bet that many of you wouldn't give them a second glance. I probably wouldn't. But I KNOW better now. And that's why I'm sticking with the All-New, All-Different Alpha Flight. :D

[PWalk]

I think what maybe driving people away from this title thus far is the lack of any real combat yet. Maybe I'm in the minority here but I don't need an all out war every issue. Sometimes I think we've all been brainwashed over the years to think a comic book needs to have some galactic proportion confrontation in every issue. I like what the creative team has established here. It's different, witty, certainly has an edge, and is progressing at real nice rate now that I look back on it.

I'm as much a fan of the originals as anyone else. Thats what drove us to this title. The simple fact that they're not featured in this volume shouldn't turn you off to it. Instead I've come to treasure these new characters much more than I did the ones featured in vol.2. Flex, Murmur & Co. all came off to me as copies of other established heroes. These new members are refreshing. I mean think about it. We have a 90+ year old black man teaming up with a disgruntled, backwater prince, a grown up yet still naive boyscout, a hot to trot, sexy bartender, a gamma irradiated scientist/ fuzzball, and the living embodiment of retribution in a skin tight suit. What's not to like???



I agree in having a book that has lighter moments...I just don't like it being taken to this degree.

While it's true this title can be a little goofy at times I truly think it works here. Why can't we have a book that steps outside the bounds of the generic comic book formula? Enjoy it for what it is and not for what it isn't.

I can't wait for the Centennial mini-series! :idea:

[HappyCanuck]

<snippage>...And that's why I'm sticking with the All-New, All-Different Alpha Flight. :D

=D> =D> =D> Amen, MMJ!! You said exactly what I;ve been feeling since the dawn of the new series and have not been eloquent enough to say!! I applaud you!! =D> =D> =D>

[cmdrkoenig67]

I like to try out new characters. It's fun. I was fond of Radius, Flex, Murmur, Ghost Girl, AND Manbot from the second series, and I was fond of Earthmover (and I can't see why people seem to hate him so much... what's he ever done to anyone?). And I love these new characters. They're unique and they have a very playful, funny dynamic that keeps me grinning while fully expecting them to kick total ass.

Someone pointed out before that the original Alpha Flight was derivative,

You forgot "boring" and "crappy" to go along derivative. I have no idea where anybody would get the idea that the original AF is derivative....or boring. I thought they were interesting and pretty cool....they certainly caught my attention(and obviously plenty of you too), when they first appeared....I wanted to know more about them. If you find them derivative....I'd like to hear your reasons why you feel this way.....maybe that should be a thread of it's own?

My view of which Alpha characters are derivative? Ghost Girl and Murmur are two of the biggest rip-offs, I have EVER seen. They may not be truly AF characters(although they are based in Canada and guest appeared in the Northstar series), but Weapon P.R.I.M.E. certainly fit that description too. This series fortunately, has some very fresh characters(I just don't like all of them). I'm liking Centennial and the Major, so far(AS I've already stated)....but that's not enough to get me to buy every issue.

I will also reiterate and say that "I like new characters"(I never said I didn't)....my examples were/are Puck, Marrina, Talisman, Madison Jeffries, Persuasion(originally Purple Girl), Nemesis, I also sort of liked Flex and Radius(those were ALL new at one time, now weren't they?). I have nothing against new characters. I just prefer to have the original cast around in some manner....not ignored and thrown into limbo(It's in a way, one of the reasons why I despise Marvel's Ultimate line).

It's not THAT hard to understand where I'm coming from, is it? I think the way I feel is pretty clear. Call me "old school", if you must....there's nothing wrong with that. After all....if it weren't for John Byrne, Chris Claremont and the original("derivative, crappy and boring"???)Alpha Flight....this book would not exist....period.

Dana

[Northcott]

As an aside, I'd like to tackle the argument made that supposes that "new" is better because "old" got cancelled. It was insinuated that pining for the original Alpha is something of a lost cause, because they were cancelled and so not viable as a team book. It may not have been the intention, but that was the implication.

If we look objectively at the history of Alpha, sales were strongest with the original team. It was in the subsequent years, where writer after writer tore the team apart to rebuild them with a new vision, that the book began to flag. In looking at the history of the industry, we see that iconic characters with a long-term, stable presence are most likely to draw and maintain a steady readership.

The original Alpha series was cancelled for the exact same reason that any other comic is subject to: poor sales. Poor sales are not dependant upon books with unstable/ever-shifting casts, but such books are almost invariably the victim of poor sales. It's been said (and accurately) that the key to any good retail business is "location, location, location". Something similar might be said of unending serial stories featuring fictional characters: "recognition, recognition, recognition".

New characters are cool. However, how they're introduced, and in what number, can be a very contentious issue.

[kozzi24]

Sometimes it's not just (or even) low sales, but also publisher's mandates of clearing weaker titles for new publishing initiatives. It was a long time ago, and it is late for me here now so memory may be faulty, but didn't volume 1 get the axe for the Heroes Reborn initiative where they axed a bunch of titles so they could turn the publication costs to pay for the overrated creators of Reborn?
There have been other such purges before, including for New Universe and the cut backs of the 70's when they were doing Giant Sizes and had a real glut of titles inclusing Nova, Villain Team-up, Champions, etc. That bust will come again, where a publisher or CEO will lower the boom to "we publish THIS many titles per month and not one more. If you want to add a new one, somthing goes." I think that's why they were so clear with the end of Volume 1 especially that long time fans should have spoken up sooner and the title may have been saved. Furman was doing some good stuff there, and Broderick has a clean style.

[Northcott]

Sometimes it's not just (or even) low sales, but also publisher's mandates of clearing weaker titles for new publishing initiatives. It was a long time ago, and it is late for me here now so memory may be faulty, but didn't volume 1 get the axe for the Heroes Reborn initiative where they axed a bunch of titles so they could turn the publication costs to pay for the overrated creators of Reborn?

I hadn't heard anything of the sort, but considering some of the business gaffes of old-school Marvel in the late 80's and early 90's, I wouldn't be shocked should that turn out to be the case.

[kozzi24]

Best example I can remember with specific details was the New Universe initiative. Mainstream Marvel did add one title: X-Factor within a month or two of the 8 NU. For everything, we lost Defenders (for X-Factor), Power Man & Iron Fist, Micronauts, Star Wars, Indiana Jones and The Thing. There may have been others. At the time, Power Man & Fist sales had been steadily rising; Chris Priest's site has other tidbits of the political situation as he saw it at the time. The Thing can be said to have been a long-term book as it was a direct replacement for 2-in-1, which gives the run a combined 136 issues. PM&IF was at 125, Defenders 152 or so, Micros combined run nearing 80, Star Wars at 107 and could definitely be said to have a loyal following that Marvel execs were aware of.
Volume 1's cancellation in 1994 was not during an initiative, but was in a period of a lot of "let's try this." from 1993 tp 1996 or so. Alpha was gone, we got the Northstar limited immediately. In 1994 alone: West Coast Avengers was cancelled, we got Force Works in about 6 months and related minis at the same time such as Spider-Woman, Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch (the latter two starting the same publication months that AWC got canned). Cable was a new title at the time, Secret Defenders and Hellstorm entered their 2nd year. Limited also included Black Cat got a limited (that one actually completed by its creators) Cyclops & POheonix, Fury, Starblast, The Vision. Marvel's oversaturation of Ghost Rider titles was ending. Start ups included Nova, the Sabretooth reprint series. X-Men early years and War Machine and Generation X.
By the end of 1996 titles such as Marvel Comics Presents, Dr Strange & New Warriors were gone and Heroes Reborn was starting. Silver Sable was gone, and if Surfer wasn't gone by then he didn't have much time left. Marvel had bought another company (Malibu?). X-Men early years had been changed for Professor Xavier & X-Men (retellings rather than reprints.)
A lot of the time period saw cancellations not because of low sales, but because titles were selling SLOW, enough to be a candidate of "replace with to see what happens.: That was all part of the 1990s glut on the market. You can also sometimes see something of a pattern that books edited by some editors were cancelled, and the editor was then no longer with Marvel. Office politics.
Books are axed for low sales, but that's not always the only reason. If sales was the only consideration for Alpha 's demise at #130, we most definitely would not have seen a limited for an Alpha character within 3 months.
Marvel does the same thing today. Look at all the new # 1's, most X-related. The bad news is that the "critical" low sales point is much lower today than it was back then.

[HappyCanuck]

Volume 1's cancellation in 1994 was not during an initiative, but was in a period of a lot of "let's try this." from 1993 to 1996 or so.

Although you are right in many aspects, Kozzi, you are also forgetting a few things of the time: Alpha Flight and many of the series cancelled between late '92 and '95 were being supplimented by Marvel's now-defunct '2099' line. After the initial four series were released (Spider-Man, Ravage, X-Men and Doom 2099), that's when the axe was pretty much dropped on many non-mainstream sellers, such as Silver Sable, Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD, and the likes. At that time, unless it was one of the Big 3 titles that are still around (Namely, Fantastic Four, Avengers and anything with an X in the title), or one of their solo books with major hitting characters of the time (ie: Wolverine, Ghost Rider and Captain America), they were getting dropped to make room for the 2099's. When, in 1993 and '94, they brought in the 2099 equivelences of another high-sellers, the Punisher, Fantastic Four and, in '95, Ghost Rider (who was still big at the time, though no one knows why), they dropped more titles, this time heading into the higher tier titles, such as Dr. Strange, Adam Warlock and the Infinity Watch (which, IIRC, concluded a few months after Alpha Flight, when the rush of the Infinity Debacle was sated), and, sadly, Alpha Flight, which was still pretty high in customer ratings (even though some say the sales of the title was waning). We also saw the death-songs of many popular-at-one-point spin-offs, such as Force Works and Fantastic Force (while X-Force survived, go fig).

In late 1995, early '96, the new craze in the X-Books pulled new members there in time for the 'Age of Apocalypse' four-month limiteds that replaced many of the X-Books, following suit with the Onslaught crossovers later in early to mid-'97, and the melee of troubles for our merry band of mutants. And that's just the X-books. During that time, Spider-Man had the Clone Saga and many other hyper-tensed storylines, while the Avengers and Fantastic Four were busy dealing with Heroes Reborn and Return for over a year. Marvel's massive plugs on their heavy-hitter series' caused the plummet of sales in several other titles, effectively killing them off. About this time (late '97 to mid '98 ), we saw another resurgance in the quantity of several books (in contrast to the quality of the core three and their spin-offs), with such books as Thunderbolts (as a Core MU temporary replacement to the Avengers), and many short-lived rebuffs, such as Heroes for Hire, New Warriors vol. 2, and Ka-Zar. Toss in there a few 12-issue maxi-series for good measure (Quicksilver).

However,in 1999 and 2000, many of the now 'Classic' books were being revamped, reinvented - such as Gambit, Bishop the Last X-Man and Mutant X's initial runs [both which were originally meant to only last 12 issues, but quickly became fan-favorites, lasting 25 to 32 issues long, respectively], replacing such books as X-Factor and Excalibur - or the short-lived Spider-Man spin-off, Slingers, so as to quell the influx of new readers to the newly re-re-relaunched Avengers and Fantastic Four in the 'Heroes Reborn/Return' sagas (thus making the X-Offices petty - stealing away many readers from the other core books in the mid-'90's with AOA, Onslaught and O:ZT, then trying to hold onto them when the other big-league titles came back a'blazing). I think Spider-Man was still aroung at the time, but I can't remember for the life of me what he was doing at that time :wink: (Sorry, Swifty).

[/babble]

[beetleblack]

Okay, well I've kind of been quiet of late on the whole Alpha Flight front as some of you may have noticed and that's mainly because I have no idea what I think of the new title! I put off reading the last few issues because the story seemed to be going no where (although that might have been the fact that it was stretched out to 6 issues - I figure that's Marvel and not Lobdell's doing?).

When I did finally read the whole of the first arc it was less the case of "You Gotta be Kiddin' Me" and more the case of "Whatever!". I'm not a fan of comedic comic-books anyway, but if they have an interesting storyline along with jokes then I'm willing to give them a go - I'm not sure if this series has either. The storyline was weak and didn't go anywhere except to introduce the new team and despatch the old one - did they really need 6 issues to do this - especially when the storyline was kind of nothing??? The humour was all very knowing and although some of it made me smile I wasn't that sure if it was really funny or not. I like some of the characters but would have prefered a mix of old and new (although yes, as it's already been pointed out, this is the ALL new, ALL different AF!).

At the end of the day I don't want to cancel the title as I feel loyal to AF, but I'm just not sure there is enough to keep me going back for more at this stage.

[Ottawa Renegade]

It's not THAT hard to understand where I'm coming from, is it? I think the way I feel is pretty clear. Call me "old school", if you must....there's nothing wrong with that. After all....if it weren't for John Byrne, Chris Claremont and the original("derivative, crappy and boring"???)Alpha Flight....this book would not exist....period.

Dana

Not to turn this into people taking sides, but I totally get your drift.

It's like if they started using replacement players during the NHL strike. just slapping a shirt on a bunch of guys doesn't make them the (enter team name here) that you grew to love. Same with this book.

Having said that, I'm still curious as to where it's going. The next story has a stronger connection to the team's past, so that'll be nice. If Lobdell can continue walking that line, I'll be happy enough. These characters do not do enough for me still that I'd continue to buy a book just to find out what they're up to. Something has to tie them into Alpha Flight besides just the logo on the cover. It's all fine and good to call them all-new and all-different. If they're supposed to be that, then don't call them Alpha Flight.

[kozzi24]

If they're supposed to be that, then don't call them Alpha Flight.
Bravo there!

Kozzi, you are also forgetting a few things of the time:
You're absolutely right. O knew where the Ghost Rider glut was by Strange's numbering and Marvel Comics Presents, but forgot all about the 2099 line I personally had been surprised to see SHIELD last as long as it did. It was a title launch off the Fury Vs. SHIELD Bookshelf, which was great, but the ongoing title just didn't seem to have it, IMO.

[PWalk]

I still don't understand whats wrong with trying to take this title in a diiferent direction. I applaud the creative team for trying to come up with something different here. I have a funny feeling that if it was the original Alphans still the book would have done alot worse sales wise, only being picked up by us yahoo's here.

Let's face it the original team never really made it into the mainstream Marvel consciousness. If they ever were to be featured in anything the exposure was limited. The fact that they lasted as long as they did on the first run always surprised me, and I'm a huge fan!

Give it sometime here with this book. I really believe it's going to turn into something we're going to enjoy reading.

[Northcott]

Let's face it the original team never really made it into the mainstream Marvel consciousness.

I think there's room for debate on that one. Their overall penetration in the market, in the form of appearances in other books, was more limited than (for example) Spider-Man or the X-Men... but those are Marvel's two heavy-hitters. In their prime Alpha were getting a number of guest appearances in other books.

In fact, it was Alpha's unprecedented level of popularity that lead to their own book -- and that only happened after (literally) years of Marvel being innundated by fan requests for the Alphans to have their own title.

I bored the hell out of the people on the Alpha list with my long-winded theory about iconic characters, the elements of them, and how they fit into the genre as cornerstones that support the overall structure. It's the root of longevity with every long-lasting superhero character around: they follow certain thematic and visual design principles. The original Alphans have these elements.

Nobody's saying that doing something new and different automatically equates to something bad. But many fans of Alpha Flight wanted to see more Alpha Flight in the book, and less "all new". Not a removal of the new, but a balance between what is comfortable and familiar, and what allows a writer to indulge his personal tastes. Some say the book seems to be headed that way after six issues. My impression is that many of the people here would have liked to see that balance from issue one or two.

Disclaimer: the above is not my personal judgement on the book. I haven't seen enough of it to form a solid opinion. I'm just stating the impression of others' opinions that I'm getting from reading this forum.

[varo]

i like this series and this incarnation of alpha flight, but thats not the problem.

if the sales continue the way they are it won't matter who prefers what version of alpha flight because this will be the third series cancelled and a new one will be a looooooong ways off for another writer to try to appeal to the non-hradcore alpha fans so sales will be at a decent non-cancel level.

i just want this series to succeed.

[Ottawa Renegade]

I still don't understand whats wrong with trying to take this title in a diiferent direction. I applaud the creative team for trying to come up with something different here.

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying it, I just find it doesn't work for me.

If it was just a matter of being pissed about new characters, I wouldn't have picked up #1. I knew going in there were many new characters. I just don't find these ones particularly appealing. If I found out tomorrow that only Sasquatch would remain and any other connections to the originals was done away with I'd drop the title in a heartbeat because I could care less what happens to Yukon Jack and I'm in no hurry to see Centennial's hundreth birthday party.


Give it sometime here with this book. I really believe it's going to turn into something we're going to enjoy reading.

I've given it eight months, I'm giving it at least four more. Probably more.

[Ottawa Renegade]

But many fans of Alpha Flight wanted to see more Alpha Flight in the book, and less "all new". Not a removal of the new, but a balance between what is comfortable and familiar, and what allows a writer to indulge his personal tastes. Some say the book seems to be headed that way after six issues. My impression is that many of the people here would have liked to see that balance from issue one or two.

That's exactly it.

One of my particular irritants is that for all that I'm reading Alpha Flight, I see nods to the X-Men everywhere and a near carbon copy of their first story for the first 6 months of this series. I friggin' hate the X-Men. If I wanted to read X-Men, I'd buy X-Men. There are plenty of X-books around, God knows. I'm dying for this Alpha Flight geek to actually give me some Alpha Flight.

[Ottawa Renegade]

i like this series and this incarnation of alpha flight, but thats not the problem.

if the sales continue the way they are it won't matter who prefers what version of alpha flight because this will be the third series cancelled and a new one will be a looooooong ways off for another writer to try to appeal to the non-hradcore alpha fans so sales will be at a decent non-cancel level.

I just want this series to succeed.

I dont know about this anymore. It wasn't long after the Doom Patrol was cancelled that they relaunched it. Same with the Titans. Did I hear something about New Warriors returning? If this series tanks, it's not necessarily the end of the world, but I'd rather see it get its act together.

[Ben]

all I want to say on this topic at this time is in regards to peoples' complaints about it being mostly new characters. How many times has this been done in the past with other books? Giant Size X-Men #1 was the modle for the first arc. It featured all new characters (for the most part). I'm sure at the time some hardcore X-Men fans weren't happy with all these new characters, but look where it took the book?

What about the Avengeters? How bloody many times have they changed rosters? Brought in a pile of new characters, or new characters to that team?

Not worth getting yer undies in a knot, as we all know the original members will retern before too long, just enjoy the ride eh?

Ben

[Ben]

I dont know about this anymore. It wasn't long after the Doom Patrol was cancelled that they relaunched it. Same with the Titans. Did I hear something about New Warriors returning? If this series tanks, it's not necessarily the end of the world, but I'd rather see it get its act together.

Ummm, why is canceling a series an answer to a direction people don't like these days? It's that kind of treatment that has really hurt the industry in my opinion. Once upon a time when a book wasn't doing well, had low sales, or fans weren't happy with, it would undergo a creative team change. Wouldn't it make more sense to express your opinions to Marvel, so they can see that canceling it isn't the solution? If enough fans down't like how it's going, then they should be encouraged to look at a creativity or directional change. I personally don't want this to be the case, but I'd certainly rather that than not see an other AF book on the shelf for 10 years. Besides, the series is young, and from the looks of the solicits, and from how the last 2 issue arc worked out, this book is finding it's groove, and has a lot of promise. Next arc looks awsome. If you still don't like how it's going though, tell marvel, don't just turn away hoping it will be better "Next Time" if there is a next time.

Ben

[Ottawa Renegade]

You're stating an argument against a point I didn't make. I'm not saying go ahead and cancel it. I'm saying that a cancellation isn't necessarily the end of a series anymore. If it turns out that they decide to go that route, I won't take it to mean that I won't see Alpha flight for years and years. I don't believe that things are that way any longer. I'd RATHER the current series continue and be improved.

As far as new characters go, you didn't quote me so I don't take your comment as being directed at me personally, but as I've said I'm not so bothered by new characters. These particular ones just don't appeal to me, with the exception of MML somewhat.

But I also think you'd be hard-pressed to find any other examples, besides Giant-sized X-Men, of when a relaunch with an almost entirely new cast has worked. You mention the Avengers and I don't know that they've ever relaunched with all new members without keeping some "veterans" around.

Hey, if I tune in to watch Trailer Park Boys on Sunday night, I want Ricky, Bubbles and Julian, yaknowwhatImsayin'?? 8)

[Ben]

True, you were not speaking in favour of axing the series, I'm just overly sensitive to the fact that it may be coming. And yes, though it doesn't necesarily mean the end, it certainly won't be back the month after, more than likely it would be at least five years if not not more.

You are correct, the characters comment wasn't directed at you, it was a general statement in response to some of the recent posts while I was aways for the last couple of days. I'm sure in the next few issues you'll see lots of oldies anyway :)


I know that Scott's plan for the "vetrans" was to have a second series, about them, however it seems to have ticked too many fans off in the process. The sales of ANADAF are way to low for marvel to consider a second book, so if folks would rather see the vets, marvel may make it happen if that's what they hear over and over. I'd personally rather see this book stay on course, and have a separate book launch covering the space travels of the originals.

Ben

[Ottawa Renegade]

I know that Scott's plan for the "vetrans" was to have a second series, about them, however it seems to have ticked too many fans off in the process.

Maybe he gambled and lost a little bit there. Maybe he liked his chances at the other series and didn't take into account the interest some folks still have for the vets.

There are some things that have been hinted at that might fit the bill. Zuzha's background story. Someone mentioned how Jack's eyes are like Snowbird's and that may not be a coincidence. Frogboy (or whatever his name is) could also have ties. Maybe a few more teasers about this stuff should be dropped.

Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to the next four issues. Wasn't there a hint after that from Quesada or someone highly placed that from issue #13 on there we would see a change in direction perhaps? I dont' think I dreamed that...

[PWalk]

Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to the next four issues. Wasn't there a hint after that from Quesada or someone highly placed that from issue #13 on there we would see a change in direction perhaps? I dont' think I dreamed that...

I do remember reading that somewhere. Let's hope Quesada is secretly a huge AF fan and keeps the series around.



And as for appealing characters I think the only one on the squad not that appealing to me is the new Puck. Centennial on the other hand is the freshest take on a super heroe I've read in years. You have an elderly black male who is awakened from a coma to realize he has super powers. Thats an original take and it's one that I look forward to seeing develop in ways my mind can't imagine.

[Ben]

At the Canadian National Comic Book Expo 2004 Joe Quesada made some quotes regarding Alpha Flight:

DAY 2:
"The current Alpha Flight series will not be in “Byrne style”, but such a thing might happen later."

DAY 3:
"Quesada said it’s too soon to tell how Alpha Flight will do, and that Marvel’s giving it a chance to see. They appreciate that it’s doing something different, but he pointed out that “everything’s cyclical” when asked about the return of the classic team."

[HappyCanuck]

At the Canadian National Comic Book Expo 2004 Joe Quesada made some quotes regarding Alpha Flight:

DAY 2:
"The current Alpha Flight series will not be in “Byrne style”, but such a thing might happen later."

DAY 3:
"Quesada said it’s too soon to tell how Alpha Flight will do, and that Marvel’s giving it a chance to see. They appreciate that it’s doing something different, but he pointed out that “everything’s cyclical” when asked about the return of the classic team."

Hmm, how political: answering questions with vague non-answers...

[Northcott]

...the hell?!? How did I not notice Quesada being at the Expo? Or am I thinking of the wrong bloody one again? There's two major conventions in Toronto each year...

Still. Nice to hear.

Anyone know if an AF trade will be coming out? I missed the first couple issues, and Marvel's print-run policy made it impossible to get copies of 'em.

For the record, last I was into the ol' comic shop (a couple months back) I was hearing the same thing from the folks there: the new AF scooped up a huge following right away, with lots of local buzz, but died down after the first few issues as people lost interest and started dumping the title.


Ben: You're right about the Uncanny X-Men and the Avengers, of course, but I think there's two things to bear in mind with those titles:
1) The X-Men are something of an anamoly in the industry. They hit a certain vibe, lucked out with a string of good creative teams, and managed to fill a niche with a success that no other book has been able to reproduce (in spite of many failed attempts over the years). They're the exception that proves the rule.

2) The Avengers' sales have been up and down through the years. Their popularity peaks have, invariably, come when the "core" characters are either mostly or entirely present: Captain America, Thor, Ironman forming the popular core, with Hank Pym and Wasp providing a sense of tradition, not as much popularity as the first three.

Creating an iconic character is kind of the Holy Grail of the comic writer and artist. If they're lucky, they create one in their career. If they're astoundingly blessed, they may create two or three. Kirby's the exception, of course: he created (or contributed to) most of the core Marvel Universe.

[HappyCanuck]

Ummm, why is canceling a series an answer to a direction people don't like these days? It's that kind of treatment that has really hurt the industry in my opinion.

Taking this in it's own context, I couldn't agree more. But if anyone looks at the 'on sale' solit's, you'll notice that, at present, Marvel has WAY too many books on the go. The X-Books alone (since they are the only set I really follow, other than Fantastic Four), I have lost count after close to twenty, what with a MASSIVE influx of solo titles, many Marvel's more than willing to claim as 'cannon fodder' - and now Marvel's having to pick and choose what books to rescue. One again, the Big M's going with 'if you can't baffle them with quality, try inundating them with quantity.'

However, that being said, now adays, when a book undergoes creative rehauling, the big thing to do is bring in big names to redo the series - hopefully to draw out the respective creators' fan base. However, big names tend to bring big egos, and big egos tend to see the best way to fix the so-called 'problems' with complete overhauls. The X-Men core books saw three such overhauls in four years (Revolution, circa X-Men 100; Extinction, circa (New) X-Men 114, and the new relaunch whom we'll call Reformation, circa X-Men 155).


Wouldn't it make more sense to express your opinions to Marvel, so they can see that canceling it isn't the solution? If enough fans down't like how it's going, then they should be encouraged to look at a creativity or directional change. I personally don't want this to be the case, but I'd certainly rather that than not see an other AF book on the shelf for 10 years.

Again, a good idea and good sentiment, but we also don't know what Marvel considers 'enough' fan intervention.


Besides, the series is young, and from the looks of the solicits, and from how the last 2 issue arc worked out, this book is finding it's groove, and has a lot of promise. Next arc looks awsome. If you still don't like how it's going though, tell marvel, don't just turn away hoping it will be better "Next Time" if there is a next time.

Ben

Couldn't have put better myself.

[Mokole]

Thing is, Alpha Flight has an audience. Books like Emma Frost and Mystique are trying to ride on the coattails of X-Men fandom. Neither book has much appeal to any market, if both disappeared who'd care? Alpha Flight is not Avengers or X-Men but heroes fighting the good fight without tons of politics (Avengers) or big wig stuff (Avengers) or angst (X-Men) or 'big' stories (X-Men) that aren't big at all like the last Fury appearance).

AF has a core market of 20000 plus and more on the way. Not bad.

[varo]

well, scott had 6 issues to grab new fans. all the message boards i read all the comic shops i visited the people were saying they will give the series a shot because they liked the originals.


now the series has lost more potential fans than gained and every time the series is cancelled and returned with a all new team the less people are likely to be interested in it.

that being said it seems like the series is starting to get some good reviews and i admit i pick some books up based on those reviews just to at least try them out. if they are good i stick with them, if they aren't i dump them.


hopefully the new found good reviews will help bring some fans back and pull the series from the under 100 sales figure.

[kozzi24]

With the trade released, other fans may discover the title in bookstores and other non-specialty shop outlets that carry the TP's.

[Mokole]

A post on Usenet made sense.

Fanboys and Fangirls pick up Emma Frost, Mystique, and Jubilee et al automatically just because they use x-men characters. But it was pointed out that while those first two books started out with good readership and then fell, similar x-books like Jubilee and Madrox won't get the same break. Fanboys and fangirls will buy anything with an X-character in it but most readers automatically put anything x on their pull lists, read them, then drop books like Mystique. Those readers are jaded and won't put the next swack of x-individuals on their pull list automatically, so Gambit et al are doing worse than expected. Thing is, even fanboys/girls have only so much money and they won't keep buying x-books for no reason unless their morons or completists.

Alpha Flight, on the other hand, brings in totally new readers to Marvel, around 5000-10000 at least. And books like Alpha Flight don't just take money from the same x-pie, they bring in new money, like Marvel Age books are trying to do. So to Marvel 10000 AF books sold is like 18000+ Nightcrawler books sold because Alpha Flight fans may not have bought Marvel before or anything Marvel but AF now. Quesada doesn't want those fans to leave Marvel so he wants to keep books like EXiles and Alpha Flight on the permanent list. I think Invaders was to be like that but unlike AF and EXiles I think Marvel overestimated its appeal to non-Marvel comic buyers.

[Phil]

I think that's pretty much claptrap.

a) madrox is a 5 issue limited series solicited as such from the start.
It's in the Marvel Knights line which makes it grittier and not for children.
It's written by fan favourite Peter David.
It guest stars String Guy and Wolfsbane, two fan favourite characters.

b) Jubilee is a Marvel Age all ages book, aimed at childen.

Alpha Flight is mainly bought by Alpha Flight fans, x fans and Scott Lobdell fans.
The book is tied into x-continuity.
It's marketed as an x-book.
It was solicited as such.
10000 books is like 10000 books, nothing else.
Sales have to be able to stand up to the costs.
Bottom line.
While fans are important, it has to come down to sales from Marvel's position.
I don't expect Scott to write the book for nothing.
I'm sure Scott doesn't expect to not be paid for his writing.

[Mokole]

When I finally got my order (not the comic, I expect to have that Monday) for AF #8 I asked the guy running the store about that and he said he sells AF to new Marvel buyers, X-fans, and DC-only people mostly. He said very few of his X-Men pullers also pull AF but people who buy Batman and Superman put it on their lists. He figured most of his AF's are sold to general comic readers, then new AF fans who don't buy Marvel otherwise, then X-fans.

[Ben]

When I finally got my order (not the comic, I expect to have that Monday) for AF #8 I asked the guy running the store about that and he said he sells AF to new Marvel buyers, X-fans, and DC-only people mostly. He said very few of his X-Men pullers also pull AF but people who buy Batman and Superman put it on their lists. He figured most of his AF's are sold to general comic readers, then new AF fans who don't buy Marvel otherwise, then X-fans.

The advantage this series has is that it uses the old AF history, but isn't bogged down with it. New readers are able to come in and not feel that they really missed half the story by not reading the other volumes of AF. There are some nice little tributes and references to AF history that only long time fans would get, but doesn't take away from the strory for newbies.

Ben

[Silverarrow]

We all want the book to be great... but it has stank. Almost everything, in each issue so far... and the blame falls completely on the writer. He better get it together, or the book will go down as another cancelled stinky book. I am glad buddy's kids are enjoying it, but most people are not, and only buying it out of loyality. As a comic store owner, people are dropping it. Plain and simple.

[mos_def]

I would have to agree with Silverarrow. The Wolverine writers write Alpha more in style then vol3 does.I buy it out of loyalty but the original team leaving to space drew the line for me.

IMO, Alpha fans were created from the creation of Byrne.His issue one has lasted us with characters throughout the entire series.We grew up with them and we know them.They are Alpha Flight, so them doing stuff that we know isnt Alpha Flight upsets the diehard Alpha Fan(me)

[Le Messor]

Do you actually think Marvel listens to fans? It listens to $ale$, nothing else.

Most Marvel comics these days are dumping the idea of thought balloons, and captions, to make them more movie-ish. They've stopped doing real covers, and replaced them with tight close-ups of single characters, or parts thereof.
Alpha Flight, under Lobdell, still does it the old-fashioned way. To me, this is a good.

I'm trying to think of how I feel about the series so far, but it's impossible. I don't. It's a light read, easy on the eyes and mind, but I have no feelings about it. I forget most of it as soon as it's done.

I'd compare it to Young Justice. In YJ, Peter David took a set of serious-toned characters, only one of which had I ever read before - and combined them into a funny book. He had a bit of fourth-wall humour, and the cartoony art.

Lobdell's trying to do the same here. Okay, I've read -other- Nemesi, but not this one. (If he's trying to tell us they're the same woman, he's a worse writer than I thought.)

Peter David succeeded. I care a lot about YJ, and the characters in it, though I never knew them before. The fouth-wall humour was kept under control, and rarely intruded on the main characters - it was mostly in the captions and side-characters.

Lobdell doesn't succeed. I don't have any feelings about the characters, one way or the other. The series so far has none of the depth or the serious issues David put in so well. So far it's fun, but empty.

Y'know what I'd really, really like to see in an Alpha Flight title?
Alpha Flight.

I got into the series - and comics - for characters I knew and loved, for the good quality of writing on Byrne's (and later Hudnall's, Furman's, and even Lobdell's first) run. I didn't get into it to see those two words on a cover, and I don't think putting them on is enough to make an AF series. Like the hockey example given elsewhere.

- Le Messor
"Because the water is still, you must not think there is no crocodile there."
- Malaysian Proverb

[Ben]

Do you actually think Marvel listens to fans? It listens to $ale$, nothing else.


They may or may not listen to fans as you say, but if enough fans make a statement about what they want to see in a book, it doesn't take a genious to see that giving the fans what they want translates into sales. It seems pretty obvious by comments here and elsewehre; people are dropping the book because: a). The want the Original AF b). They don't like the lighthearted take. If a whole lot of people write to marvel and say what they don't like in the book, and what they do want to see, it wouldn't take a genious at Marvel to see that a more serious AF with more origonal members will translate to sales.

If everyone says "My opinion doesn't matter" and no one bothers to express it, then you just make yourself correct by making you opinion meaningless. If you state your opinion on the book to Marvel, and you opinion is the same as many others, then it will make a difference, because those opinions mean money.

Personally I would love for this series to have good enough sales to keep going, BUT if those sales aren't good enough, I would rather see the book changed to make more fans happy than see it thrown away.

Ben

[Le Messor]

Ben wrote: If a whole lot of people write to marvel and say what they don't like in the book, and what they do want to see, it wouldn't take a genious at Marvel to see that a more serious AF with more origonal members will translate to sales.

You're right. It wouldn't take a genius.

But the people who're ignoring these letters are Management. They're the opposite of genius, the negative of genius, the Diet Coke of Genius.

They are, in a word, stupid.

Haven't you ever had a job? :wink:

- Le Messor
"Please don't step in the management."
- Dilbert book title

[Ottawa Renegade]

Lobdell doesn't succeed. I don't have any feelings about the characters, one way or the other. The series so far has none of the depth or the serious issues David put in so well. So far it's fun, but empty.

Y'know what I'd really, really like to see in an Alpha Flight title?
Alpha Flight.

Is there a way for me to just get Messor to write all my posts from now on? It would save me a lot of time and say the same thing, but probably more clearly. :wink:

[kozzi24]

Ben wrote:
If everyone says "My opinion doesn't matter" and no one bothers to express it, then you just make yourself correct by making you opinion meaningless. If you state your opinion on the book to Marvel, and you opinion is the same as many others, then it will make a difference, because those opinions mean money.

Bravo, Ben. A good example for the American election as well as expressing your opinion to Marvel. Letters that say I hate the book and am dropping will largely get ignored, or worse, encourage MARVEL to DROP the book. Letters that say, "I'd like this a whole lot more if..." give the editors feedback they can use.

[DelBubs]

Lobdell doesn't succeed. I don't have any feelings about the characters, one way or the other. The series so far has none of the depth or the serious issues David put in so well. So far it's fun, but empty.

Y'know what I'd really, really like to see in an Alpha Flight title?
Alpha Flight.

Is there a way for me to just get Messor to write all my posts from now on? It would save me a lot of time and say the same thing, but probably more clearly. :wink:
Mik's very eloquent when he gets into his stride and very precise with a lot of peoples views. The bit that stood out to me was 'empty', I'm in total agreement. I'm not even sure what happened to the Manimater in #8, I know he got beat, but how? With AF to begin with I use to read the issue twice/three times on the day of purchase and then a few more times while waitibg for the next issue, Mantlo put paid to that. While I wouldn't begin to suggest that vol 3 AF is anything like Mantlo's run or vol 2, to my mind it's nothing special. AF needs to sell to keep going, it needs to appeal to the established fanbase and then draw in new readers. You can't alienate the majority of the fanbase and drive away the newbies with a six part story that could have been told in 2/3 issues.

While the next arc has actually got me hooked and intriqued, I can't help but feel that it's maybe eight issues too late.

JMTCW

[cmdrkoenig67]

AF needs to sell to keep going, it needs to appeal to the established fanbase and then draw in new readers. You can't alienate the majority of the fanbase and drive away the newbies with a six part story that could have been told in 2/3 issues.

While the next arc has actually got me hooked and intriqued, I can't help but feel that it's maybe eight issues too late.

JMTCW

I agree Del...There may have been hundreds of established fans who've already dropped the book(but don't have a voice on any message board, simply because they don't post anywhere....I used to be one of them).

I also want to see Alpha Flight continue, but I'm very unhappy with the way the book is being handled and it's direction. I was very perturbed by the six issue beginning story arc(it was unnecessarilly long and full of fluff/filler/wasted space....not to mention making the original team look inept and not needed....I needed to say that again). I'm going to write another letter to Marvel....and yes, I'm writing polite ones. :D

Dana

[Le Messor]

[quote=Le Messor]
Is there a way for me to just get Messor to write all my posts from now on? It would save me a lot of time and say the same thing, but probably more clearly. :wink:
Mik's very eloquent when he gets into his stride and very precise with a lot of peoples views.

But he crumbles under pressure. I mean, when people -expect- him to be elegant and precise, he just can't do it.

As for writing letters to Marvel saying what we want - I'm all for it. I just don't expect any results.

While I can argue that they don't listen to the letters we do write, the back argument would have to be 'Then they -really- don't listen to the letters we -don't- write.'

That said, for years we've been saying 'We want Alpha Flight'. Their answer? They give us a book full of strangers, slap those words on the cover, and go 'Satisfied?"

Um... No.

- Le Messor, aka Mik
"Behind your back, your colleagues are talking about Jeckyl and Hyde."

[Phil]

Let's just see how #12 ends up, eh?

[Legerd]

How about we try a little experiment then to see if they listen to us? Why don't we flood them with letters requesting a new book titled: Beta Flight. It will star Windshear and Wyre, both of whom are connected to the old Beta team. They search for missing members Pathway, Goblyn, Persuasion, Manikin and Feedback. It would be written in a more serious vein and would provide answers and back story for the characters who have simply fallen off the face of the Earth.
What do you say, anyone want to give it a shot? :)

[Cliff]

Hey all, first post 'round here.

Unfortunately I was looking for someone to convince me I was wrong about the new series and it actually turns out that pretty well all of us have the same general opinion: It says ALPHA FLIGHT on the cover, but it's nothing but creamy nougat on the inside.

Lobdell doesn't seem to actually have the "emotional investment" in these characters his initial letter to us all claimed back in V3#1. He said that catching AF each month was such a strong memory and he wanted to do them justice - well, I think he's fallen way short. Sasquatch is back, but he's an idiot. When did this happen? Is it carry over from when he was savage or is it just using the only returning character as a catalyst for the new series and for cheap "hairy" jokes? New Puck is a nice attempt but she's still just a rehash of a character that was already good and didn't need reinventing. Walter has the kid we haven't seen since the early days, not Eugene. (sigh) Yukon Jack (?) Is this guy "verily" a joke? Not nearly as much as Major Mapleleaf is. Sheesh that guy is a discrace to Canada, as far as I'm concerned, much less the legacy of the AF team. The only interesting new character is Centenial but he's wasted as being a snotty jerk to everyone. I like what's being done with Nemesis, but it actually seems like the entire series thus far has been to facilitate her rehabilitation into a normal human being instead of a villainous killing machine.

I'm sad that I have to keep buying this garbage in order to give Marvel the impression that we all like it enough for it to continue. Seriously, I've considered a submission for writing specifically for AF just to get things back to the way it should be, but wonder at how rational Marvel management actually is considering the direction the title is being allowed to travel. I can't imagine this being pitched and anyone agreeing it was a good idea for marketing AF anew.

Glad I found you folks too - gives me a real place to vent... :lol:

[kozzi24]

There's some agreement--a lot, actually--but many of us regulars around here found ourselves liking Major Mapleleaf in spite of ourselves. And considering the American election, maybe a highly moral character is quietly connecting with more readers than we'd realize.

My dissatisfaction with the series thus far is tied to Scott Lobdell, but I cut the man some slack because he had given to pitches to Marvel, one Alpha Flight and one a different, new title. He was told to combine both, so this title not being a recognizable "Alpha Flight" may not be his fault at all. He's doing what he has to to make a living by following editorial madate. The success of Formerly Known as Justice League may have only skewed those mandates more. Scott humor in his brief run of Volume 1 was character centric of ALPHA FLIGHT, while in V3 it has been plot driven and just plain too much.

The last arc was an improvement, and for the first time since V3 launched, I am looking forward to sampling the next issue, even more than I anticipated V3#1.

[Cliff]

I still find it far too "jokey" and hope that a toning down can still equal a successful book. Personally, a relaunch isn't an option but what I'd prefer. :cry:

[Northcott]

I suppose I'm one of the exceptions among old-timers. The other characters I don't mind so much, and I rather like the idea behind mini-Puck (Judd was bound to have offspring somewhere)... but man, I LOATHE Major Maple Leaf. It started out as a one-liner making a friendly poke at Captain Canuck in an X-Men issue, and grew into a perpetual joke. A bad one (imo) no less.

Even worse, he's just another blonde-haired, blue-eyed "Ultimate Aryan" type. It just doesn't resonate for this nation. Guardian made a much better national super-hero in terms of being representative, though the entire team was required to really get a feel for "the big picture".

[Cliff]

I agree, and I'm from Texas. (lol)

He's far too charicature and not enough substance and the flying horse thing is ...erm... a flying horse. Gack. He shoul dat least be speaking some French and be a little more resourceful.

Frankly, what I'd like to see is somewher around issue #11 (if we can stand it that long) have a complete switch of tone and make this all po-culture record in comic book form of the actual deeds of AF. Write in some fall-out between the core members and "how this refelcts on thier ability to serve Cananda" and get the title back to a more mature tone. I dont' mean sex, drugs and blood mature, just get it back to "grown-up" and lose the self-aware jokiness of the book. These characters deserve better IMO.

Old timer here too, Northcott.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Do you actually think Marvel listens to fans? It listens to $ale$, nothing else. [When MARVEL does something that really doesn't make sense, then nobody has to buy it. That's why I won't be supporting the gutting of Northstar and turning him into a zombie. If MARVEL gets rewarded financially for doing this, other characters will get the same treatment. GRJ]

Most Marvel comics these days are dumping the idea of thought balloons, and captions, to make them more movie-ish...Alpha Flight, under Lobdell, still does it the old-fashioned way. To me, this is a good. [Me, too. Scott and Clayton deserve a lot of credit for what they did. GRJ]