Power of the Twins

[ladymako71]

Hmm interesting? I personally reckon they did good by putting him in the old duds, even if I like the X-ones. *ducks*

[kozzi24]

Don't duck, Jo. The new costume was obviously modeled on the old one and the goggles made sense to me on several levels. NS seems to fly faster than he could when AF was a new title, and maybe whatever aura protects his eyes weakens as he flies faster, so he realized using goggles allowed him to fly faster. Plus, as a skier, he would be used to having worn them and may look at them as a fashion statement.

[DelBubs]

I'd go with the fashion statement, in the Marvel handbook it was said that NS and Aurors could both theoretically go faster than light, but didn't because of the damage to the enviroment etc. Their anatomy is geared to extremely high speeds.

[Ben]

The also, to accomodate high speeds, have a resistance to cold. Walt had to wear that green "gumby" suit when flying with Aurora, yet she needed nothing. If either of them needed protection from the elements, it would be Aurora, as when Walt modified her powers, and made her able to do the whole light thing solo, her speed and invulnerability both dropped.

Ben

[kozzi24]

Somewhere down the line, the twins' powers have been lost track of. They can share powers, as when NS repowered his sister. I took NS's crash and burn back to earth in volume 2 not as a suicide attempt, but as a test of the limits of his powers, and figures it's just poossible that he can reach higher speeds with protective eyewear. At one point, Aurora was the faster twin but Northstar could go farther. In more modern time, Aurora mostly employs her light powers and Northstar mostly employs speed.
Any protective aura they have was never all-protecting either. If it was, then NS would not have covered his eyes wheb flying through a window during his rescue of Aurora from Deadly Earnest in V1#8. With the goggles, he probably wouldn't have to protect his eyes in a maneuver like that.

[Le Messor]

But we already -know- Aurora lost her anti-cold power. When Walter took her to Tamarind Island for the first time in #20 (ohwatageekiam), she shivered. She was in a two-part bikini, and he goes 'no wonder'. And she's, like 'but cold's never bothered me before'. And he's all 'Well, I changed you powers,' and then she goes 'Yeah, whatever! 'Coz this is my Commonwealth of Whatever!"

- Le Messor
"Be both a speaker of words and a doer of deeds."

[kozzi24]

But has she felt cold since her powers were restored by Northstar circa V1#83 or so? Touching doesn't seem to negate their powers anymore, does it? My theory is that they truly do share powers. Hudson's tests weren't shown, but I envision that Aurora started first, thus there was less speed power for Northstar. Then Aurora tired, thus he was able to go further, in part because as her use of the power receded, his picked up. There's a lot of possibilities of things to explore left in the twins!

[Ben]

agreed, NS and Aurura have lots of untapped potential. Now would be a perfect time for a mini series starting the twins. Aurora just broke free from Weapon X, NS isn't doing much with the X-men. Both have a folling from those books, and both have a following from AF fans. I bet it would sell like gangbusters if done well.

Ben

[ladymako71]

Damn I thought on a Twins series and my brian just exploded! That would e fab if it was done, and done well!

[Ben]

Well, whover likes the idea can always write to marvel :)

Ben

[ladymako71]

*starts writing away like mad*

The more I think of this the more interesting it gets. Something like the Emma Frost series, where it starts out pre Hellfire Club/X-men and explores them before Alpha. Maybe after Aurora ditches the convent and JP is uh...where ever he is. ^^

[cmdrkoenig67]

John Byrne mentioned on his message board that he wanted to do a twins mini-series many years ago(I think after he left AF)....I don't know why it didn't happen....I'll see if I can find the thread he mentions it in.

Dana

[Ben]

John Byrne mentioned on his message board that he wanted to do a twins mini-series many years ago(I think after he left AF)....I don't know why it didn't happen....I'll see if I can find the thread he mentions it in.

Dana

Now that you bring it up, I think I remember hearing something about that way back when...

Ben

[DelBubs]

Just stirring the pot here. I can't see how NS and Aurora can share a power as such. I believe they both have the same power and that when they use to touch they could generate this blinding light. This would suggest that they are identical twins, but then surely they would both be of the same gender. Identical twins, one egg, split into two, same gender. Non Identical, two fertilised eggs (Pathway and Goblyn for instance).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that NS and Aurora should be of the same sex and thus one power shard by two, or non identical, similar powers, but no general effect on the other.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Now that you bring it up, I think I remember hearing something about that way back when...

Ben

Sorry, I can't find the thread....I'll post it when I do.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

You have a very good point about the twins' powers, Del. I don't believe they share powers either....it's more like a symbiosis/blood power-connection....or whatever.

Dana

[kozzi24]

Just stirring the pot here. I can't see how NS and Aurora can share a power as such. I believe they both have the same power and that when they use to touch they could generate this blinding light. This would suggest that they are identical twins, but then surely they would both be of the same gender. Identical twins, one egg, split into two, same gender. Non Identical, two fertilised eggs (Pathway and Goblyn for instance).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that NS and Aurora should be of the same sex and thus one power shard by two, or non identical, similar powers, but no general effect on the other.

That they have shared powers might indicate that something happened to their mother while they were in the womb. This might indicate that they were born with their powers but not necessarily genetic mutants.

[DelBubs]

That they have shared powers might indicate that something happened to their mother while they were in the womb. This might indicate that they were born with their powers but not necessarily genetic mutants.
Except that you have that sequence in AF vol 1 #7/8? which would indicte that Northstars powers kicked in when he achieved puberty. Mac suggests that NS became a better skier after puberty. Plus, the only suggestion at NS's and Aurora's origin was in #51 when Loki suggested that the twins parents had died in a car crash. Any suggestion that womb manipulation took place is a bit tenuous.

Identical powers, twins, but not genetic mutants, how many straws to grasp at would you like. It is obvious that NS and Aurora are twins, there near identical appearence would suggest that although identical there gender may have been affected by whatever substance created the mutation that would manifest at puberty. Instead of fighting the obvious, maybe we should accept it for what it is.

[Sir John A.]

Are you saying they're hermaphrodites?

Maybe the doctors decided JP was more boy than girl and cut accordingly?

[kozzi24]

Any part of their origin from Loki was a lie.
What little we know of their origin is that they were orphaned when their parents supposedly died, then the Martins, who only took in J-P, were killed when he was a bout six. Coincidence, or was someone pursuing the twins and both Beaubiers and Martins gave their lives to the children's defense?
I think what Mac said was more along the lines of a mediocre skier suddenly becoming Olympic "when he learned he could fly." This may was after puberty, but exactly how does someone learn they can fly? We know Aurora learned when she jumped off a building to kill herself. With JP, that was natural to be while in the air on skis, eh?

[Le Messor]

Remember Jurassic Park? "All embryos are inherently female; they need certain hormones to become male. We simply deny them those hormones."

I knew that before the movie, btw...

The point here being, could not, in Marvel Comics if not in reality, two identical twins be born, both supposed to be male, but one was denied the hormone while the other not?

Or, OTOH, were they supposed to be both female, and somehow NS got that hormone, but not enough of it, hence why he's now gay?

Just a thought.

- Le Messor
"Be like a postage stamp – stick to one thing until you get there."

[seroquel]

yeah. hormones dictate sex of the fetus (if you ever take embryology there is painful painful detail in just how blob of cells does both).
I am nerdy and I just looked it up and apparently "discordant monozygotic twins" (dissimilar seeming twins both from the same embryo) is a new topic of study because well, things like this must happen happen occasionally.

Also since this is about powers here goes over thoughtfulness applied to comic canon. i took physics 2 this summer which is all about electricity and magnetism. the way i look at if they can create light (in actuality an electromagnetic wave) wouldn't they be able to control eletric and magnetic fields if they really tried? also could they make all different kinds of electromagnetic waves like x-rays, gamma waves, etc? i think that would be most excellent. and we could move away from aurora and northstar from being eye candy that gets bashed in the head 10 minutes into a battle. Seriously, have they one more than a handful of fights? its always bloody vindicator or box or talisman.

[seroquel]

princess nerdo back. further info on the whole monozygotic different sex twin thing.


Copied from website http://www.devbio.com/article.php?ch=11&id=111

"For example, take the situation of an egg fertilized by a Y-bearing sperm. It has been found (Opitz, 1993) that monozygotic twinning is associated with higher than normal amounts of aneuploidy; so it is possible that if twinning were to occur through the failure of the first two blastomeres to adhere to one another, aneuploidy might also occur. In that case, the twins would have different chromosome complements. If the aneuploidy were for the X chromosome, one twin might by male (XY or XYY) while the other would be female (XO). Such male/female "identical twins" have been found (Edwards et al., 1966; Machin, 1996). These twins would be assumed dizygotic, when they actually had originated monozygotically."

[bigbloo]

Twins dont have to be identical to look alike. We know of brothers and sisters who look almost like mirror images of each other even if they aren't twins.

It would be easier to think of JP and JM as fraternal twins whose look very much alike and just happened to have also inherit similar sets of genes that give them their distinctive powers. The fact that their powers are similar but not exactly the same supports the fraternal twin concept.

[HappyCanuck]

Also since this is about powers here goes over thoughtfulness applied to comic canon... the way i look at if they can create light (in actuality an electromagnetic wave) wouldn't they be able to control eletric and magnetic fields if they really tried? also could they make all different kinds of electromagnetic waves like x-rays, gamma waves, etc? i think that would be most excellent.

:D YAY!! someone else like me!! (in this case, someone ELSE who tends to overanalyse fictional beings who were created primarily as an escapist form of entertainment) =D>

To compliment what seroquel statedI'm not formally trained in physics, but keep it as a serious hobby, so understand most of what I am about to say below.

I wanna know where the twin's light comes from. As I understand it, EM radiation - in contrast to kinetic-based energy forms such as sound - are partical based. In this case, the energetic particles are photons. According to physics, if you apply enough energy to a material, the nucleic core of atoms lose subatomic particles - such as electrons, the odd proton and neutron in extreme cases, and smaller quark-related particles such as neutrinos and photons. It's even been discovered that EMR facilitation can produce anti-particles (for those of you who don't know what they are, they are oppositely charged particles. Sorta the energetic version of antimatter). That's all nice and dandy, and what not, but however there's a slight glitch: the laws of conservation states that all energy and matter have finite beginnings (in this case, the hypercharged particles come from atoms). If you take a photon from an atomic core, you have less of a core than you did before (sounds redundant, I know, but it's a valid point that needs to be stated for some). in theory, you could reduce an entire atom into electromagnetic subparticles - the more atoms, the more electromagnetic subparticles - , but you'd have a finite amout of subparticles, at the expence of the original atom. This could prove dangerous to the twins if they 'flash' enough times, as, although there are several quadrillion atoms in a human body, that limit is finite. take into effect how many times Aurora alone 'flashed' - and the intensity of said 'flashes' -, especially after her reunification after her ordeal with Headlok, then, in theory, she'd have destroyed several billion atoms, in some cases per 'flash'. Speaking of flashes, I say boobies. Thats for tjpse of you who have managed to read this far without getting confused or outright getting bored and stopping reading. And one thing I remember about biology is that after a certain age, the body's celluar mitosis is SEVERELY inhibited (although not ceased) - hence why we stop growing. Cellular mitosis is the act of increasing a mass's size by breaking down and incorporating new molecular - thus atomic - structures into the main mass. Most times, this is used regeneratively, to heal wounds and what not, but not at a steady rate (it's been proven that children who suffer massive injuries grow slower. One theory is that this is part of the healing process - redirecting cellular mitosis to injured areas, thus slowing the growth process). During most of her AF career, JM was in her early to mid twenties, meaning she'd finished most of her mitosis, and had relatively fewer cells that would mitose (I think that's a word). However, how many atoms did she obliterate when she 'flashed'? Especially during the Infinity Wars/Crusade, and the subsequent battles, where she 'flashed' ever third panel appearance, you'd think the damage would be significant. Summarily, even more so when she and JP had to touch to 'flash', since it was localised to whereever they touched - primarily the hands. Where i'm going with this is, you'd think that JM would be SERIOUSLY ill, especially in issues 100+ of volume 1, just from the potential radiation poisoning (if atomic masses are disrupted via particle displacement, such as in nuclear fission, the remaining majority of mass is unbalanced, making it unstable, resulting in radiation). How do they (the twins) regenerate subatomic particles??

And if anyone understood what I just said, you get a cookie.

[seroquel]

whoo! hoo! nerds of the world unite!

why does everyone what them to not be identical twins? its sort of negates the whole cool power resonance thing they have going on. Additionally they had identical powers before AF v1 #18 (i believe, but i refuse to get up and look!) when walter put his big foot in it. finally aneuploidy (which is one way that would enable them to be identical opposite sex twins) is not that rare. i am not sitting in front of a stats book here but you or I or nearly anyone you know could possibly be chromosomally analgous and be healthy and functional (though occasionally it does result in infertility because of the genetics). Moreover having extra chromosomes could explain alot about all our super heroes!

Also thanks happy canuck for that thoughtful piece. I always just assumed they had a rate of cellular regenration that was out of this world. As fast as pretty much everything else about them. or maybe they are full of some completely new cellular systems, full of high energy alternative pathways.

Last bit, one issue of bill mantlo's run I think 33, the one where razer comes out of pucks body the 1st time, northstar makes reference to being able to see the emf coming of heather's suit. so i guess someone else thought of it once, then dropped it. sorry this is so long whoops

[HappyCanuck]

... sorry this is so long whoops

:lol: :lol: LMAO!! Me thinks seroquel doth mock me on my post length!!


(well now, doesn't THAT sound like an unintentional sexual innuendo!! :oops: )

[seroquel]

ha ha ha! no, not at all. i am just lousy at ettiquette. and i automatically assume people are rolling their eyes going, man i gotta read all that!

[HappyCanuck]

ha ha ha! no, not at all. i am just lousy at ettiquette. and i automatically assume people are rolling their eyes going, man i gotta read all that!

LOL, you should read some of my older posts! I'm a babble-holic (as most of these guys can attest to), and tend to get long-winded. after reading them, it'll be YOU who will say 'man i gotta read all that!' Look up the one about my theory on Nemesis for example.

[kozzi24]

the laws of conservation states that all energy and matter have finite beginnings (in this case, the hypercharged particles come from atoms). If you take a photon from an atomic core, you have less of a core than you did before (sounds redundant, I know, but it's a valid point that needs to be stated for some). in theory, you could reduce an entire atom into electromagnetic subparticles - the more atoms, the more electromagnetic subparticles - , but you'd have a finite amout of subparticles, at the expence of the original atom. This could prove dangerous to the twins if they 'flash' enough times
What if ther bodies provide the initial reaction for the flash and the rest of the atomic cores used in the flash comes from the air around them?
Byrne also hinted at the electromagnetic abilities of the twins when, in ish 1 or 2, they shorted the power of his suit.
If they do not share powers, how was Northstar able to recharge Aurora when she was powerless during the Hundal run?
Funny about them being knowcked out of fights early. I think that's speedster syndrome where they carry the fight or are knowcked out early. Byrne seemed to go out of his way by stating that they had super speed but not super reflexes, yet most of the time they ran into invisible things, like Delphine as Guardian projecting an energy wall in front of Northstar. Kane took out Northstar by electrocution one issue circa 116. I think you can discount Mantlo's fights as he seemed to only want "his" characters to shine, so the twins and Puck were usually ineffectual

[seroquel]

yeah i have some serious bones with the mantlo issues for that reason. heather and box always save the day. everybody else was too weak or too dumb except heather and madison. aiya!

i guess though most comics suffer from super character sydrome, as if they forget why they were a team in the first place.

also i fail to see how the twins can't have some sort of enhanced senses/ reactions or they would never be able to do anything at super speeds. they would smash into something and die.
my final complaint about their powers is how they (writers) are always saying they are punching at normal strenghts but super speeds. how does that work? the difference between throwing a bullet and shooting a bullet is the speed behind it! a punch that was moving even at hundreds of feet a second would be extremely devastating! to the head or the chest most undoubtedly fatal.
i love comics but seriously haven't most sci fi writers even taken basic science! its a bit hard to make up decent pseudo science without any grasp of the actual. my 2 cents anyway...

[kozzi24]

I agree with you, ser. Best practical science I can apply to their reactions and still keep with Byrne as near-Gospel is that their reflex act in direct proportion to the speed they are utilizing. IE if they were standing still and talking to someone, and someone else came up to them and punched them in the side of the head, they'd be going down because their reaction speed wouldn't have been enhanced. But their reaction time increases with their metabolism when they use their speed powers. IE if the guy coming to punch them did so while they were jogging in place at 2 mph, they could easily duck and return fistfire. If they're jogging in place at 200 mph, they'd see the guy soming and winding up and they'de be hitting first. They can be taken by surprise and can only reaction as an enhanced human when they are using enhancement.
Basically, their reaction times have to be enhanced, otherwise they would be flying, see a plane, and be smeared red across the first class windows before they could avoid a collision.
As to the rest...Some writers just need the lesson in having fists to the head....

[Phil]

As to the rest...Some writers just need the lesson in having fists to the head....

Because threats and violence solve evvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvverything. :roll:

[seroquel]

no violence solves nothing but... some very upclose and personal physics experiments could greatly increase the plausiblity of hooey science in comics! :)

[kozzi24]

As to the rest...Some writers just need the lesson in having fists to the head....

Because threats and violence solve evvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvverything. :roll:

Some people just don't understand American "humour"

[Phil]

Exactly... hence why some people don't find Scott's writing funny....

[HappyCanuck]

Exactly... hence why some people don't find Scott's writing funny....

Lucky for me (and not so much for some others on this list) that I LIKE cheap, crappy humour like what Scott has produced -- in moderation, naturally. So far -- IMHO -- Scott has not gone overboard (yet). He does good by keeping the gags to one or two per issues, with only a limited exposure on running gags (the 'floating head' gag for example, was only meantioned twice in iss #6).

To me, the crappy humour (American or not) fits with my sence of humour (which, admittedly, is more towards the 'dry' side), so it appeals to me.

And that concludes my two cents worth... for another shpiel, please insert two cents at the sound of the beep.

BEEP!

[Le Messor]

They just slow down a bit to make up for their lack of reflexes.
It's why they couldn't speed through the Master's lair in #4, and why Northstar got hit by the base - while travelling at superspeeds.

It is a worry, but out in the open, travelling a mile above the surface, the odds of hitting anything are really small.

- Le Messor
"Be realistic: Plan for a miracle"

[Northcott]

My take on the twins was always that they had enhanced reflexes, but not proportionate to their speed. Not so much that it would necessarily register as a super-power (like the Flash, who can see bullets moving through the air like slow-floating dust motes), but their reaction time (when focused) would be far superior to a normal human.

In addition, their power was described in terms of being "molecular direction" -- so they simply willed themselves in a direction, and their molecular structure followed.

The effects of this could be seen as working in the following ways:
1) providing limited physical protection while in motion: the protection would be less than the actual motion involved, so they are not really "invulnerable", but do become resistant to harm to a certain degree. Because temperature variations are based on shifts in molecular speed, it stands to reason that, having control over that element of themselves, they would be highly resistant to temperature changes.

This effect would be enhanced while they are in motion, and probably even provides them with some physical protection while in motion (again, through forced ordering of their molecular structure). This explains why Northstar could be smacked in the head by a high-velocity metal pole, while he was moving at remarkable speeds, and not splatter like a melon. It also explains why his fist doesn't explode when he punches Sasquatch at high speeds.

2) Reflex limitations: it was shown early on that the twins were capable of running at increased speed, as well as punching rapidly. This would be impossible were it not for some level of enhanced reflexes, due to the recall nature of muscles. The ability to retract and chamber a leg swiftly is a large part of the reason for an Olympic sprinter's speed.

Presuming that the twins do, in fact, possess limited enhanced reflexes, it would make it possible for them to run at remarkable speeds (though they would fly much faster -- which was presented as the case), and throw stunningly fast flurries of punches. In the latter case, however, they could not throw full speed punches, as they do not have the reflexes to allow for it: they can actually fly faster than they could punch. So their punches are devestating and swift, but not as terrible a force as they could be.

3) Electro-magnetic spectrum, TOE, and the twins
Einstien's Unified Field Theory was expanded to become "the Theory of Everything" (TOE) some years back. The original supposition that electricity, magnetism, and gravity were all possessed of related energy fields, and that manipulation of one could affect the others, has been expanded into a physics theory that, if solved and confirmed, could quite literally describe the workings of all things. (Now think about Guardian's battle-suit and how bloody amazing that thing is when viewed in this light!)

The twins can disrupt Guardian's force-field, which suggests that they have an energy signature to their flight. In some sci-fi way, their speed is tied into the TOE (I love saying that). This is further displayed by their ability to produce light when touching.

All of this points at some potential weaknesses, however: electricity being a big one. It's tempting to say that, because they seem resistant to cold (and perhaps heat?) and because their powers may have an electro-magnetic correspondence, that they are in some way resistant to electricity. Our computers are run off the same, however, but even the slightest static shock or feedback can fry a system's circuts. My hunch is, that given the nature of the twins' powers, that they would be susceptible to energies from the same spectrum from which they draw their powers.


As an aside: the way I remembered it, JP was faster, while JM could fly for longer. It's a theme that Byrne continued to repeat, based upon athletic performance: women traditionally do better in long-term endurance events, while men tend to do better in anaerobic (strength and speed) events.

And I had thought that the reason that the twins didn't tempt full speed in an atmosphere was not merely because of the damage they'd cause around them, but of the damage to themselves: that while theoretically their speed was limitless, their bodies might not be able to handle the strain.


Overall, I took a shine to the twins because they were speedsters with limits. They were a unique take on that character type, even without their considerable personalities factored in.

[Le Messor]

As an aside, the speed of a punch does affect its strength, but isn't the only factor. Example: Imagine being hit by a lead ball, 20cm2, at 100 kmh. It'd hurt a lot, hunh? Then imagine being hit at he same speed by a bran muffin. I wouldn't be too worried about that one.

Or, imagine the Hulk hitting a brick wall at 20kmh. Bye, bye, wall.

Imagine Northstar hitting the same wall at 2000kmh. Hey, where'd the wall go? Oh, wait, the Hulk smashed it down... Wait, I'll hit it -before- he does...

Doctor! Doctor! Could you find my hand? Here, you'll need this mop...

- Le Messor
"Be sure to treat your assumptions as though they are reality."

[HappyCanuck]

As an aside, the speed of a punch does affect its strength, but isn't the only factor. Example: Imagine being hit by a lead ball, 20cm2, at 100 kmh. It'd hurt a lot, hunh? Then imagine being hit at he same speed by a bran muffin. I wouldn't be too worried about that one.

Or, imagine the Hulk hitting a brick wall at 20kmh. Bye, bye, wall.

Imagine Northstar hitting the same wall at 2000kmh. Hey, where'd the wall go? Oh, wait, the Hulk smashed it down... Wait, I'll hit it -before- he does...

Doctor! Doctor! Could you find my hand? Here, you'll need this mop...

- Le Messor
"Be sure to treat your assumptions as though they are reality."


LOL, that's what's been missing around here: Your unique and descriptive sence of humour!! Glad to have you back on board, mate!

[seroquel]

mass of an object will always be taken into play (though i see the humor in your example, don't want people to think i am humorless).
but yes even a crunky old bran muffin will hurt badly if lobbed at high speeds. i mean look at a paint ball. weighs like nothing yet shot at 400 f/s hurts ALOT when it collides with your melon. anyone who likes paintball can share that. or bird shot. ouch!

i would really like to see some writer touch on the whole EMF factor with the twins though. it is much more interesting than just flying around quickly (though i like that too). well to me. :) that and i want comeupance upon vindicator for always being the day saver cause she could blow stuff up.



quote for the day "homer simpson is cock of nothing!"- Monty Burns

[Northcott]

There's also point of impact and relative density to be taken into account.

A bullet may weigh very little, but it's made of relatively dense matter, and specifically formed to have a very small point of impact: the sharp knife/dull knife dichotomy.

A human fist not only has a relatively large point of impact (spreading out the force of the blow more), but in comparison it's made of relatively soft materials.

It's why I'm figuring that the Twins' powers, based on molecular direction originally, must incorporate some kind of progressive damage resistance with it. 1) Since their molecules are, in that state, obeying their whim and moving as a unified force, it might stand to reason that they would be harder to damage. 2) We have some evidence in this, in the number of times that the twins survived collisions at speeds that would have turned a normal human into a case of "clean 'em up with a spatula".

[Le Messor]

Mass, and speed, are both important, but there's also the question of the strength behind it. The other day I closed my screen door pretty quick, but I wasn't sure if Goblyn was all the way through it - but, though the door has the mass to guillotine a cat, and the speed should've strengthened it, I did it so loosely - with so little strength behind it - that if he had been in it, the door would've stopped harmlessly.

Which is why I gave the Hulk example - I was thinking of his strength more than his mass.

The molecular displacement is one fan's theory, and shouldn't be taken as canon unless it's ever put into the comic.

- Le Messor
"Before borrowing money from a friend, decide which you need more."

[HappyCanuck]

... but I wasn't sure if Goblyn was all the way through it...
- Le Messor
"Before borrowing money from a friend, decide which you need more."


Um..... :shock: Okay, anyone else who a pet named after an Alpha Flight character, raise your hands...

(:wink: sorry Mik, just hadda, you left me open)

[seroquel]

i don't mean to be a science geek, but what is strength? define it with physical parameters.
the strength behind the screen door? do you mean the momentum
as p= mv? which enable said screen door to chop off cat's head. we have a couple of things we can take into account. the speed (or velocity) of the screen door, the mass of the screen door. the acceleration of the screen door. the force of gravity. friction. this is the sum of its forces. this is all its got. so what is the difference between chopping your cat and not? i would go with velocity. you whip the screen door hoping to inflict injury (barring stupid gismo which makes door close slowly), or you open and close it like a normal person. the rest are relatively fixed on a day to day basis. which brings me back nicely to my other point, which is getting punched by one of the twins would jack you up. high velocity equals ow.
mass is a factor but i don't think that shakes out to density. (area of impact isn't negligible but punching is punching and i don't think we want to nit pick about force/area) anybody who goes boating at clippy speeds can attest that a mosquito (which is probably not particularly dense) can hurt sting like a mofo.

i don't want to pee on anyone's cheerios but if we are going to argue imaginary beings let's do it properly! :) not really. i just get awfully excited about this stuff. seriously this is what i thought about in physics two the whole time, how does this parlay into comic physics?

hmm... and i wonder why i have landed a killer job in science yet......

[Le Messor]

we have a couple of things we can take into account. the speed (or velocity) of the screen door, the mass of the screen door. the acceleration of the screen door. the force of gravity. friction.
hmm... and i wonder why i have landed a killer job in science yet......

Well, that was my point. There's a lot more to it than speed.
Oh, and I wasn't trying to hurt my cat.

Have, or haven't landed that job? :?

- Le Messor
"Splat."

[seroquel]

haven't in science but have landed other suitable job (yay!) to bide my time until i go to *shudder* grad school. (vomit noise).

yeah there is somewhat more that velocity but not so much more, there are x many things that are factored in, period.

no i doubted you were trying to kibosh your cat/pet/creature but it worked nicely.

random side bar to powers (but still on topic) is when did the twins "psychic link" show up? as in an issue? the headlok issue is the first mention of it i can think of but was it there before. they seemed mutually depressed alot but i am assuming it wasn't much in effect in early issues or jm would have figured jp was a little hot for walt.

[HappyCanuck]

random side bar to powers (but still on topic) is when did the twins "psychic link" show up? as in an issue? the headlok issue is the first mention of it i can think of but was it there before. they seemed mutually depressed alot but i am assuming it wasn't much in effect in early issues or jm would have figured jp was a little hot for walt.

To my knowledge, the incident with Headlok in AF 1.104 is the only solid meantion of a link between the two, however this could be explained through the so-called metaphysical link between twins that's witnessed in the real world.

[kozzi24]

I dismissed the "hot for Walt" because the salvation in #24 would not have worked without "one who hates him." Maybe he liked having the eye candy around so to speak, but personality wise, Northstar really did hate Walt.

The link between the twins can be inferred through their powers in earlier issues: Northstar's powers were effected by Walt's change to Aurora, and he glowed on his own in #50. He restored her powers circa #85.

[Northcott]

The molecular displacement is one fan's theory, and shouldn't be taken as canon unless it's ever put into the comic.

Did I miss a reference to molecular displacement, or are you making reference to molecular direction? If the latter, it was published by Marvel. I didn't just haul the term out of the blue. :) Ramblings on the possible workings and applications of such an ability were mine, though.

[HappyCanuck]

I dismissed the "hot for Walt" because the salvation in #24 would not have worked without "one who hates him." Maybe he liked having the eye candy around so to speak, but personality wise, Northstar really did hate Walt.

I don't think JP hated Walt, only Aurora's infatuation with him. To JP (and most of the world who'd've heard of MPD), JM was mentally ill, and Walt was either taking advantage of it, or was weak to repel the Aurora personality's come-ons. If Aurora had turned her attention to, say, Michael, I believe that Jean-Paul would have shown a dislike for him too. The fact that Jean-Paul may (or may not) have been attacted to Walt too could have compounded the issue.

[seroquel]

there is no salvation of walt in issue 24. the whole think was just a trick by somon (or whatever his name is). walt was saved because michael realized the energy there was walt.
the whole one who loves, one who hates, and a powerful one was all just a trick to lure them someplace where they could be attacked.

[Sir John A.]

Um..... Shocked Okay, anyone else who a pet named after an Alpha Flight character, raise your hands...

My cat is named "Logan" does that count?

[kozzi24]

there is no salvation of walt in issue 24. the whole think was just a trick by somon (or whatever his name is). walt was saved because michael realized the energy there was walt.
the whole one who loves, one who hates, and a powerful one was all just a trick to lure them someplace where they could be attacked.
I figure Somon must have detected JP's hatred of Walt...and while his sister's infatuation CERTAINLY fed that, I don't think it started or ended there. How many times would a homosexual have been physically or socially attacked by bullying football jocks like Walt back in high school? I figure JP probably hates the type.
As a trickster, Somon would have known better than to include "One who hates" even in a trick, because he would want the trick to work? Could he have blindly used such a trick in the HOPE that one of the six or so people that came to the (literally) end of the earth to save Walt would have hated him?
The evidence that I remember for JP's attraction to Walt was in 2 places (both by Mantlo).
#30 or so, where Northstar says to a crying Aurora that he loved him too. My explain-away is that JP is just not big enough of a jerk to say to his crying sister, "he really was a this-and-that, so you're better off." He showed compassion and empathy, things that aren't defining traits but that he does possess.
#48 or so, when JP says he preferred Wanda as the man he was. My explain-away is those words don't mean he liked Walt or even liked Wanda, it just means that he's a gay guy who would prefer having a fit man to look at rather than a fit woman.
The relationship between JP & Walt has not been explored much by anyone since. They were chummy during Scott Lobdell's brief first run, but that was also circa #106 where JP was adopting and caring for a dying baby. By #116 or so, JP warns Walt away from his sister again.
I look at them as 2 guys who work together, and I'm sure all of us have experience in working with people we can't stand. End of the day, the job still has to be done.

[Le Messor]

Or maybe JP hated Walt because he loved him? He wanted him, knew he was straight - and dating his sister - and became jealous. He loved his sister deeply (which makes Kozzi's answer very likely, too - she was the one he saved all his compassion for, that early) so he'd turn the anger and hate against Walt instead.

As for hating (football) jocks, JP is himself a jock, and therefore likely to neither hate all jocks, nor be picked on by them, not in the intense bullying build-a-grudge-and-buy-a-gun type way.

- Le Messor
Before shooting himself, Kevin Phillips left a note outside his Kansas home saying “Dead body inside”. Another note in the kitchen, next to a pot of coffee, read “Police - help yourselves”.

[HappyCanuck]

Or maybe JP hated Walt because he loved him? He wanted him, knew he was straight - and dating his sister - and became jealous. He loved his sister deeply (which makes Kozzi's answer very likely, too - she was the one he saved all his compassion for, that early) so he'd turn the anger and hate against Walt instead.

That ties in well with my theory on it, so I won't argue with it.


As for hating (football) jocks, JP is himself a jock, and therefore likely to neither hate all jocks, nor be picked on by them, not in the intense bullying build-a-grudge-and-buy-a-gun type way.

Here's where I argue: Skiing and football are two completely different types of 'jocks'. No, I don't believe it was ever specified that he hatee all jocks (once again those nasty generalisations strike again), but that doesn't mean that, simply because JP was a jock himself in one form, that he wouldn't have issues with other jocks, such as football players, boxers/wrestlers, or any other sport form that require more strength and durability than agility and speed. Skiing builds different muscles than football, thus, in this case (assuming he was bullied based on his lithe size, instead of the fact that he's an a*****e), he'd still could have been bullied.

In school, I had a friend who could be considered a jock - he played competitive tennis, which has similar mass-building skills as skiing - and he was constantly being bullied (as was I, but I wasn't a jock by any stretch of the imagination) by several of the more 'macho' jocks (ie: hockey and soccer players) due to the fact that his sport was 'girlie'. They'd taunt him for every aspect of that stigma, from the general beating him up, to forcing him into women's clothing to humiliate him. It got so bad that he did take a gun - not against his attackers, but to his temple. I myself, having been bait for bullies, and I know I've been tempted to do the same, so I don't blame him, tho I do wish he'd found another way out (I had art, he had tennis, which made it worse, since that's why he was being bullied).

Analogously, had JP not his arrogance (which, in the context of how this thread is going, I can see how he'd build that up), there is a SIGNIFICANT chance that he'd've done just that: taken a gun or other such weapon to his bullies. And if his primary attackers had been Anglophones, well, that's a couple steps closer to becoming an FLQ terrorist! (the fact that he couldn't go through with it could be explained that he's just too moral for that kind of violence. Often, when badgered and beaten people are forced with a situation where they can enact some destructive vengeance, their morality will usually win out, and will spare their provokers or whomever they associate with their torture.)

[seroquel]

i always sort of see JP as a scrapper. I am sure he got crap but i am also sure he would dish it and fight back when needed. also as happy canuck pointed out he thinks far to much of himself to let stupid people get the better of him. that and i am sure he had a very unusual adolescence between a professional skiing career, circus life, terrorism, and homelessness. it probably didn't leave a lot of time for a conventional high school education :)

also i have to say i totally agree with le messor on the cause of dislike for walter. JP seems like a character that sort of turns alot of feelings that are not useful or helpful to him (like being attracted to your estranged sisters bf) into ones that could be in a way like anger and a desire to better himself.

(that was a very bummery example there, v. sad)

[kozzi24]

So there is someone else who questions whether he really did finish high school?

[seroquel]

oh yeah totally. if he went to high school it couldn't have been in a very normal way.
additionally he is supposed to be a good businessman, is he just full of business acumen or did he some how go to college and then get an MBA ?
(i think it could have happened, i mean if you could study really really fast college would be a snap, and especially if you made a deal with prof to just take the exams, which does happen)

[syvalois]

I do also don't have the feeling JP went to school very far. I don't know, maybe it's from stereotype but I don't see a frustrated, angry young man or teenager going to school. Or been in the FLQ for that matter, but I'm sure I must be wrong.

Anyway, as seen in those byrne issues, JP is very good to learn stuff, in his intro to AF when he see mac the first time he hardly speak french (I always thought he could speak it but choose not to used it) but still, i not sure he was such a good speaker at that time but after someyears as Northstar, he can speak almost without an accent. Can he show that to me, please!!!

Now, what I want to say is that JP must be a fast learner, someone who works hard and is kind of a perfectionist. I see him as an"autodidact" someone that learns by himself. He may not still have a degree anyway but just his brain. PLus it would maybe fun to see his educational level since in quebec we don't have the same educational system. Sorry guys no high school but I call it "polyvalente" or "école secondaire" or when I try to translate it "secondary school".

[kozzi24]

Is there difference in scendary school, or just different translation? Do primary and secondary schools total to 12 years of education, or are there other fundamental differences?

[Northcott]

Secondary schooling is made in reference to college or university.

[syvalois]

Is there difference in scendary school, or just different translation? Do primary and secondary schools total to 12 years of education, or are there other fundamental differences?

let see: maternelle =kindergarden at 5 years old
6 years of primary school
5 years of secondary school
2 or 3 years of Cégep (2 for going to University and 3 to get a "technique")

3 years at university for a bac (4 years for engineers)
and more for master(??) and doctors

[syvalois]

Secondary schooling is made in reference to college or university.

hein?

[Northcott]

My apologies. In some provinces Secondary Schooling is made in reference to college or university. :) Quebec has a different system, and for all I know some other provinces might as well.

[HappyCanuck]

My apologies. In some provinces Secondary Schooling is made in reference to college or university. :) Quebec has a different system, and for all I know some other provinces might as well.

I'm not sure where in Canada you are, Ed, but in 90% of the country, the school system is broken up like this (confirmed by friends in other provinces):

K - 6 = Primary
7 - 12 (13 in ON) = Secondary
College/University/Vocational School = POST Secondary

[Northcott]

K - 6 = Primary
7 - 12 (13 in ON) = Secondary
College/University/Vocational School = POST Secondary

*cough*POSTsecondary...*mumble* Whoops.

I blame it all on the flu meds I'm taking. :oops: I'm half out of my tree these days.

....


....yeah, that's it. The meds. Or the fever.

...

...damn, but that's embarrassing. :)

[kozzi24]

Thanks guys. I get curious how different countries educate differently.

[HappyCanuck]

I'm half out of my tree these days.

Well, at least you have a tree to be out of

[Northcott]

My bottle of Nyquil has become my best friend. :)