The implications of AF #9 (SPOILER- so buy ish 9 first)

[mos_def]

Has anyone stopped to think about the implications that might have caused since MML went back to around ish 1-11 of AF vol1.Im sure we are about to see the happenings of it since a whole binch of Box robots are coming back to base for a fight.

First off, if Mac never dies due to the battle in New York then Heather never dons the Guardian armor thus her in space now is a major problem. :?

If Heather never wears the suit then who stops Bedlam from thrasing AF or the Pestilence when she killed Snowbird.No one.

If Omega Flight is never defeated then Smart Alec is still alive (Hmm). If Smart Alec doesnt die how does our current leader now Sasquatch get out of Shaman's bag.ANswer he doesnt. Thus causing a major paradox in AF dont you think.

If Mac doesnt die and gets jumped to Jupiter then he isnt a cyborg and he doesnt have enough power to stop Galactus or Dr Doom from vol 1 thus AF is still off in space.PARADOX

Im sure waiting to see how ish 10 answers these things

[HappyCanuck]

(Clip) PARADOX

Im sure waiting to see how ish 10 answers these things

Well, there is a wonderful creative tool used in comics these days called parallel universes, such as those the Exiles visit every issue or so. in this case, MML is making a new one!

[Ottawa Renegade]

You know one thing though? At the end of #8, Lobdell states that the Alphaverse (Eh...I like that...) will never be the same. I'd like to see something new come out of this.

Now I don't know if you've noticed, but Lobdell...likes to kid around. So maybe it was just that.

[Ahab]

First off, if Mac never dies due to the battle in New York then Heather never dons the Guardian armor thus her in space now is a major problem. :?

If Heather never wears the suit then who stops Bedlam from thrasing AF or the Pestilence when she killed Snowbird.No one.

If Omega Flight is never defeated then Smart Alec is still alive (Hmm). If Smart Alec doesnt die how does our current leader now Sasquatch get out of Shaman's bag.ANswer he doesnt. Thus causing a major paradox in AF dont you think.

If Mac doesnt die and gets jumped to Jupiter then he isnt a cyborg and he doesnt have enough power to stop Galactus or Dr Doom from vol 1 thus AF is still off in space.PARADOX

Im sure waiting to see how ish 10 answers these things

You're assuming that all of the events after Mac's death would still happen. The interesting aspect of time travel is that what MML did could radically have changed the timeline so that none of the above would have ever happened.

[HappyCanuck]

You're assuming that all of the events after Mac's death would still happen. The interesting aspect of time travel is that what MML did could radically have changed the timeline so that none of the above would have ever happened.

I think that's what Mos was trying to identify, hence the theatrical 'PARADOX'.

[Mokole]

Maybe it goes like this:

Hudson doesn't go to NY. He's already got the cyberhelmet et al and AF is in existance. So he remains with AF and doesn't die, Heather stays his wife. Team stays as Byrne AF beyond #11. Under his leadership some events turn out differently. Instead of AF being disbanded Hudson feels the warning from the future is a lucky break. He has a choice, make an army of Guardian suits or Bochs robots. He knows the mind-altering problems of his cyberhelmet and learns that Madison Jeffries can create Box robots easier. That way control is less of a problem. So we get Box robots attacking AF.

Where is Heather et al? Heather's never a hero so why would she be in AF? Rest of AF sans Heather (assuming they are alive in this Alphaverse) take the Plodex, or the Box robots have been sent to destroy the Plodex ship and save old AF. They don't know new AF, so they attack.

Or maybe Mac's non-death changed the whole direction of AF into an anti-mutant group, hence the Box Sentinel robots.

[DelBubs]

Or maybe Mac's non-death changed the whole direction of AF into an anti-mutant group, hence the Box Sentinel robots.
During the Super Powers Registration arc, Heather decided it wwas better that AF bought renegades in rather than leave them to the Hardliners. Maybe we have the same type of scenario here, Box Sentinels as averse to Hellfire Club or Trask Sentinels.

Or not as the case may be :-)

[Phil]

Lets see where #12 ends up 8)

[cmdrkoenig67]

Maybe it goes like this:
He has a choice, make an army of Guardian suits or Bochs robots. He knows the mind-altering problems of his cyberhelmet and learns that Madison Jeffries can create Box robots easier. That way control is less of a problem. So we get Box robots attacking AF.

Mokole....It has never been mentioned in the comics that mac's helmet has "mind-altering problems". Where are you getting this from? You mention this very, very frequently....and it doesn't make any sense , not to mention, it has no basis in written AF history. Why keep bringing it up, if it doesn't exist?

Dana

[Mokole]

No problem. I get it from the fact Heather was so not a leader and had to be pushed and encouraged to be with AF, then she puts on the helmet and shortly after becomes dominant and antagonistic, a completely new way of behaving. Thereafter she is aggressive and in charge when wearing the suit lots, not when out of the suit for an extended time (as in working selling flowers for someone else).

Obviously, creative thinking on my part. I figure any suit that is as powerful as the Hudson e-m suit, and works on feedback to the brain to operate it, must, by definition, alter brain chemistry.

[Phil]

I totally disagree.

Heather fell into the role of leader because she had to.

She had to do something to stop herself going crazy after the death of Mac. To give her something to do. To carry on his legacy. To make sure she survived where he didn't. And to basically look after the 'family' she had collected together; a archetypal mothering instinct on many levels - something she'd have gained from all her babysitting.

[kozzi24]

The babysitting, and being oldest of 7.

Mokole has a point about the changes in Heather, and I think that it is a natural psychological effect. It isn't explored much in comics, but there would be some change in most people while they were in costume than how they are when not. Aurora was supposed to be a statement about the dual personality of any superhero, donning the costume to become someone else.

Heather's extreme shift is also natural for someone who led the team for a spell without powers, then gained the ability to be proactive. She had to sit outside in the cold while the others saved Walt's soul in #24. Then she got the suit and all its power, chose an AGGRESSIVE name - Vindicator - and one of her closest friends refused to train her to fight because he was afraid she'd get hurt. Sure she overreatced and overcompensated as Vindicator. She felt she had too much to prove to too many people, as Vindicator. She'd already proven herself to them as Heather Hudson.

Mantlo did this intentionally, and he dealt with it indirectly toward the end of his run, when the Dreamqueen's influence would not allow the suit to come off. He was not wrong to do so either. Byrne's Heather was too proud to call her parents when her husband died, after all. Another of Mantlo's touches that really supported this was (I think at the end of AF #50. Heather needed to shed a tearover her lost teammates, so she took the Vindicator mask off. Heather did stop overcompensating and do more team-player bits, non-coincidentally about the same time she took the name Guardian.

At first, she was probably "allowed" to be team leader-mascot by Judd and Walt and Shaman to give her some direction following Mac's death, and I think she quickly surpassed their expecyations and earned the job. Sans battlesuit, she dove into Plodex infested waters. Sans battlesuit, she was on the front lines against the Hulk. Against the freaking Hulk, and this powerless woman did not run away.

Mokole, You've said plenty of times before that you don't like the Hudsons. That's you perogative, but I think after reading your E/M theory, that you don't have enough of the back issues to truly understand them as characters.

[cmdrkoenig67]

The babysitting, and being oldest of 7.

Mokole has a point about the changes in Heather, and I think that it is a natural psychological effect.

I agree with Kozzi and Phil. Heather's change was not as drastic as you would think. Imagine being the oldest of 7 kids, having to be in charge of that amount of kids at a young age. Heather also was never portrayed as being mousy or weak. Byrne's Heather was always a strong woman, who'd stand up to anyone(Northstar included). She pursued Mac(remember) and got him to marry her. She put herself in great danger without powers as leader of Alpha Flight before John Byrne left the series. She only began to doubt her abilities, when the hulk(who she also stood up to, as Kozzi said....she did hop onto his back, putting life and limb in great danger) showed up to tear through the team(but that was Mantlo's first issue). I don't see that there was much of a change in her personailty.

Dana

[seroquel]

i think mantlo was simply not a subtle enough writer to be able to portray heather as strong without her becoming an overbearing mother hen type. though a point for him is that there are a few issues where they quibble over heather's bossiness.
i mean the man is/was one of the most ham fisted character writers i have ever read. each member of AF was painted rather broadly in my opinion.
Aurora the nutty ****.
NS the assh*le queer.
Madison the white bread hero.
Heather the strong but loving but chilly widow.
Puck the noble handicap. Roger similarily.
Etc etc.
They rarely diverted from this template throughout his run.
Heather seems to have ratched down a little bit after he left the book.


OT.. what issue/s are the dreamqueen saga? my AF collection has some post-50 pre-100 holes.

[HappyCanuck]

OT.. what issue/s are the dreamqueen saga? my AF collection has some post-50 pre-100 holes.

Alpha Flight vol.1 #'s 68 - 71.

[Le Messor]

I like Mokole's explanation. Mine would've been inconsistent writing, but Mokole noticed another thread.

But I don't agree with it, for the reasons cited; Heather -has- always been strong - she brought Alpha together, after all. Twice - once when she brought Mac to Parliament and Cody (and was then indirectly responsible for the team's formation) and once when she summoned them all to fight Tundra.

Remember her fighting off Delphine Courtney - "Other superhero wives and girlfriends may be content to play hostage..." ?

- Le Messor
"I bent my wookiee!"
- Ralph Wiggum

[kozzi24]

I personally believe Byrne, if he had stayed, always had intent to guide Heather into the suit. He has stated otherwise, something like "Making that suit work on a woman boggles the imaginati0on" or some such, but I think things like that were probably said as not to spoil the inevitable surprise. The sunglasses gave it away; artistically, Mac's head shot wasn't anything to look at. The goggles with Heather in the cowl gave it what it needed.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Ooh, we agree again, Kozzi.

Dana

[seroquel]

belated thanks to happy canuck on my off topic question :)

sorry to interrupt this regularly scheduled thread!

[HappyCanuck]

belated thanks to happy canuck on my off topic question :)

sorry to interrupt this regularly scheduled thread!

Um, no problem... :? Anyone remember what the question was, and my answer??

[DelBubs]

Seroquel asked if you would turn over all Alpha related comics to him and you said yes.

[HappyCanuck]

Um, no, no I didn't. I may be tired, but I'm not stupid (sorry Sero) :D

[DelBubs]

Um, no, no I didn't. I may be tired, but I'm not stupid (sorry Sero) :D
Reneging on the deal eh :?:

[HappyCanuck]

Heh, nice try, Del. As I said not too long ago: NO ONE is getting my comics - Alpha or otherwise - until I'm dead, buried and mulch. Anyone wants my collection, they'll have to forge my signature on a will, then take a hit out on me.

[DelBubs]

Heh, nice try, Del. As I said not too long ago: NO ONE is getting my comics - Alpha or otherwise - until I'm dead, buried and mulch. Anyone wants my collection, they'll have to forge my signature on a will, then take a hit out on me.
Any particular order :lol: ?

[cmdrkoenig67]

I personally believe Byrne, if he had stayed, always had intent to guide Heather into the suit. He has stated otherwise, something like "Making that suit work on a woman boggles the imaginati0on" or some such, but I think things like that were probably said as not to spoil the inevitable surprise. The sunglasses gave it away; artistically, Mac's head shot wasn't anything to look at. The goggles with Heather in the cowl gave it what it needed.

....not to mention she was wearing red and white gear near the end of his run(a LOT of red and white....check it out).....Hhmmmmmmmm

Dana :D

[Le Messor]

Hmm... Allan, I'm a pretty good artist. Can I see a copy of your signature? And, let's see, who do I know in Canada who, um, 'exterminates pests'...

I'd have loved to have seen Byrne tackling Heather in the suit...
Wait, that came out wrong. You know what I mean.

- Le Messor
"Better to send ten ambulances when they are not needed than one when it is."

[HappyCanuck]

Hmm... Allan, I'm a pretty good artist. Can I see a copy of your signature? And, let's see, who do I know in Canada who, um, 'exterminates pests'...

I love you too, Mik. :wink:


I'd have loved to have seen Byrne tackling Heather in the suit...
Wait, that came out wrong. You know what I mean.

All too well, Mate, all too well (ya dirty pervert you) :P

[Le Messor]

Allan, you know we only love you for your collection. Do you know how much these guys will pay me for it? :twisted:

Ewww to the idea of Byrne with anybody. *shudder*

- Le Messor
"Better to use medicines at the outset than at the last moment."

[HappyCanuck]

Allan, you know we only love you for your collection. Do you know how much these guys will pay me for it? :twisted:

LOL, about a buck-and-a-half. I don't have much (about 1400 total, mostly comprising of X-Men and Alpha - almost have all of series 1!! YAY!).


Ewww to the idea of Byrne with anybody. *shudder*

Riiiiight. C'mon, admit it, mate: you think the idea of much older men and strong, successful, physically-two-dimensional women hot! I know you too well! (Mind, the fact that Byrne created said physically-two-dimensional woman borders on creepy - wouldn't that be akin to incest??)

And when the hell did this thread start to look like it needs to be in the Cupboard with the furnature porn??

[Le Messor]

But he's fat...

And I never denied finding Heather hot. Or Aurora... Liz... I could go on and on...

mmm... Ororo...

- Le Messor
"There -is- no roll to save against redheads!"