AF #12 solicit + Cancellation notice

[Ben]

"DAYS OF FUTURE PRESENT, PAST PARTICIPLE" Conclusion!
Alpha Flight continues to get their hands dirty playing in the timestream. Can they set things right before the end of their final issue? They darn well better! And you won't believe who shows up to say good-bye!

http://forum.alphaflight.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=211

[Mokole]

Cancelled or She-Hulk Runaways Thunderbolts Cap & Falcon reboot in March?

Marvel jerks. :evil:

[DelBubs]

"DAYS OF FUTURE PRESENT, PAST PARTICIPLE" Conclusion!
Alpha Flight continues to get their hands dirty playing in the timestream. Can they set things right before the end of their final issue? They darn well better! And you won't believe who shows up to say good-bye!


I guess we all knew it was coming, but it's still a pain. This image is a pain to get working http://images.comicbookresources.com/solicits/marvel022005/big/ALPHAF012_col.jpg

[Mystic]

Words can't explain how pissed off I am over this...

Oh...and here's the cover for #12...
http://img35.exs.cx/img35/7428/Alpha12.jpg

[mvranas]

There seem to be some problems with the linked images, so I uploaded the cover to the album. Here it is:

http://forum.alphaflight.net/album_pic.php?pic_id=211

I wonder how many times the original Byrne cover (vol. 1 #12) has been 'homaged'? I can think of three off the top of my head - this one, vol. 2 #12 & at the end of vol. 1, either 128 or 129.

Are there any others?

-Mike

[Phil]

Am I gonna try and get someone arguing with me that this isn't a homage this time? :P

[cmdrkoenig67]

I wonder how many times the original Byrne cover (vol. 1 #12) has been 'homaged'? I can think of three off the top of my head - this one, vol. 2 #12 & at the end of vol. 1, either 128 or 129.

Are there any others?

-Mike

I gather Scott's going to kill one or more members of the team, from the looks of that cover.

Dana

Edited to cut cover image :D

[kozzi24]

Am I gonna try and get someone arguing with me that this isn't a homage this time? :P

No, that's a homage. And surprise-surprise, it's an Alpha Flight homage! Couldn't they have found an appropriate X-cover to model after?

[Phil]

I gather Scott's going to kill one or more members of the team, from the looks of that cover.

Dana

Well, he's already "killed" MML Jnr :wink:

[DelBubs]

I gather Scott's going to kill one or more members of the team, from the looks of that cover.

Dana

Well, he's already "killed" MML Jnr :wink:
:?: ... Care to elaborate on that Phil :?

[varo]

welp another "reboot" of alpha down the drain. guess i'll wait another 3 years or maybe never for another relaunch. hopefull someone will step in that respects the teams past and treats it with the respect the characters deserve, not to tell bad jokes and slap a mapleleaf on the cover.


i just don't get it. who does everyone want to see as avengers? cap/iron man/thor


who did everyone want to see in the jla? bat/superman/wonderwoman/flash/gl/mm.....etc.


why do these companies continually try to use cretaive ways to put bad characters in titles? i never felt a connection or interest in any of these characters, nor did any non-alpha fans or else it wouldn't be in the 100's in sales and being cancelled again.



ugggggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

the formula is so easy and there are so many good stories to tell in the alphaverse yet no one has!!!!

i pray that quesadas cryptic "everything is cyclatory" comment in canada was a shot at a reboot.



arrrrrgggggggghhhhhh!!!!!

[Phil]

:?: ... Care to elaborate on that Phil :?

How he gets sent into the past in #9 mate.


i pray that quesadas cryptic "everything is cyclatory" comment in canada was a shot at a reboot.

Let's just see how #12 ends up, yeah? 8)

[varo]

phil this is the second time you have put a 8) after a refrence to the end of issue #12.


what do you know that we don't?

[Phil]

That it's cool to wear sunglasses indoors 8)

[Ahab]

I think Phil thinks it's funny to be coy at a time when his fellow Alpha fans feel lost and dejected.
Remember, Phil, knowledge is power. With great power comes great responsibility. And you are being very irresponsible just standing there not throwing a life-ring to your fellow mates that are drowning in sorrow for the loss of an Alpha title once again.
(How's that for a guilt trip?) :D

[Phil]

Ahab, if you'd have been a naked, puppy-eyed, pouting female that would have been a guilt trip, but you're not, so it wasn't :P

I'm just of the wait and see school.
No sense in *****ing about things before we've read them and seen how they actually turn out.

( 8) )

[Le Messor]

It's good to see an homage to AF this time around - better'n being stuck in X-Men. And, this is becoming a tradition. If v4 lasts that long, (though they get shorter each time), I wonder if it'll have the same cover?

Hey, it's fun *****ing about things I haven't read yet! 8)

- Le Messor
"Between two evils, always pick the one you never tried before."

[HappyCanuck]

Words can't explain how pissed off I am over this...

Oh...and here's the cover for #12... (Image cut because, well, let's face it, having eight of the same image in the same thread is a bit overkill)

Well, now ain't THAT original. What, is it gonna be tradition to have the same cover for EVERY issue # 12 of Alpha flight?!?

AND if there IS gonna be a relaunch, looks like we can look forward to yet ANOTHER one in about a year...

[ladymako71]

cancel?

nooooooooo! dear sweet god jesus whyyyyyyyy?

*drops into helpless pile*


bastards...

[maniac mike]

Hey Ben, have you had a chance to get a hold of Scott Lobdell lately to hear his side for the story? :cry:

MM :evil:

[HappyCanuck]

Hey Ben, have you had a chance to get a hold of Scott Lobdell lately to hear his side for the story? :cry:

MM :evil:

No offence to Scott, but I wanna get Quesada by the balls and get HIS take on this, since the writer is usually a patsy in these things...

Actualy, I'm not sure how Scott would take that as an offence...

[kozzi24]

Words can't explain how pissed off I am over this...

Oh...and here's the cover for #12... (Image cut because, well, let's face it, having eight of the same image in the same thread is a bit overkill)

Well, now ain't THAT original. What, is it gonna be tradition to have the same cover for EVERY issue # 12 of Alpha flight?!?

AND if there IS gonna be a relaunch, looks like we can look forward to yet ANOTHER one in about a year...

For a while in volume 1, they were setting up a tendency for every 10th issue to be a head shot. I had kind of liked that.

[Ben]

Hey all, I have heard from Scott on this, I'll take the liberty of sharing what he said:




I know, how sad.


I'd been putting off addressing the troops for several
months because I didn't want to lie -- and because I
kept hoping against hope that MARVEL would come to its
senses. (I genuinely believe the MARVEL and DC are
in a mutual death grip, trying to choke the last few
dollars out of the "mature" AUTHORITY-LITE, ULTIMATES,
MARVEL KNIGHT angle that they've become convinced is
"the only stuff that sells." I believe that, given
time, ALPHA could find and audience...but certainly a
book can't find an audience if it isn't being
published.


I discussed the possibity of forgoing my payment --
and creating a six issue arc that takes place in
NEMESIS and CENTENIAL's shared past so that it could
justifiably be printed in black and white (which means
it would be cheaper to produce in terms of costs, sans
writing and coloring)...but alas, the only reaction I
got was "We do not publish black and white comics at
this time." Umm. You COULD publish black and white
comics if you WANT to...no one is showing up at the
printers with three hundred gallons of colored ink
pouring it onto the presses. Sigh.)


That said, I do give Quesada kudos for trying. He
did okay a book and a tone that no one else was doing
at the time: even Formerly Known As Justice League,
though a "comedy book" bore know real resemblence to
CENTENIAL and company. (FORMERLY was a reunion book.
ANADAF was, like GENERATION X before it, a variation
on a theme that we had not seen before.)


Also, keep in mind that over the years, I've left more
than a few lasting impressions. WHITE QUEEN, since
being turned in GENERATION X, has been front row and
center of the X-Verse for ten years now...BLINK has
been class hottie for nearly as long. And NORTHSTAR
essentially joined the X-MEN when I did Eve of
Destruction...(I can't believe Grant and Joe were too
cowardly to just keep him on the team at the time.)
And while I genuinely can't keep track of who is alive
or dead anymore, certainly some of the GEN X kids are
still around.


I say this because, who knows -- maybe one of the more
popular creators will take a shine to the
quasi-reformed NEMESIS, or the square-jawed MAJOR
MAPPLELEAF! Heck, who wouldn't like to see CENTENIAL
slap LUKE CAGE upside the head and say "That's no way
to treat a lady, Young Man!"?


I am sure a lot of people are going to be claiming "If
only it was the original team! THen the book would be
flying off the stands!" Mmmmaybe, but a] I doubt it
(look at DOOM PATROL as only the most recent example)
and b] I am proud of MAP and CENT and PUCK and SASQ
and YUCK and NEM! I would not have changed a word!


And don't thank ME for the support, Ben! It is I who
thank you for everything YOU'VE done for ALPHA FANS
the world over!


Scott!





As for Quesada, Let him know what you think, email him joe@joequesada.com. Send your email and snail mail to Marvel.

Ben

[Ben]

Heh, I really should have consulted Scott prior to posting his last email to me, I just wasnted you all to know that he had not forgotten about the fans. He asked me to pass the following along after I told him I had posted the letter"



1] I don't BLAME Marvel for not continuing to publish
ALPHA FLIGHT when the sales don't warrant it. MARVEL
(like every other company in the world) is in the
business to make money. Joe Q and Dan Buck would be
remiss if they kept publishing books in which they do
not make moola: in this case, ALPHA FLIGHT. Do I think
it is unfortunate that a book that is "different"
can't find room in a publishing plan that I believe
sorely needs to reach beyond the Hero-As-Cynic? Yes,
that makes me sad. But please understand that I do
not BLAME MARVEL for not publishing, I just wish we
could have all worked together to find a way to make
the dollars and cents work to keep the book going long
enough to build an audience for a different type of
book.

That said, let me make it clear, that NO COMIC BOOK
COMPANY is OBLIGATED to publish a book that "no one
reads". I had a long discussion with a friend over
WILDCATS 3.0 and how WILDSTORM "should continue to
publish it no matter how low the sales go -- because
it is fun to work on." Ummm...no. That is called
self-publishing, where the CREATOR is at risk, not the
PUBLISHER.

2 -- Man alive! Was I right about Clayton Henry or
what??! Damn, can this kid draw! Aside from the
characters I got to hang out with for the past year
(both in the book and here on the boards! LOL!) the
most exciting part about working on the series was
watching Clayton's growth as an artist! Over the
years, I've gotten to work with the Jim Lees the Joe
Mads the Chris Bachs the John Roms, The Kubes and lots
of others, and I'm telling you -- one and all --
Clayton Henry is going to be a superstar! And you'll
get to say "I saw it all happen during ALPHA FLIGHT!"
(Not that his EXILES wasn't great -- but let's be
serious, an artist always does his best work on the
characters he creates!!!! Woo hoo!)

Oh, and 3 - A big ole' thank you to Mike Marts, who
pulled me back into the warm and all too brief bosom
of Marvel. I don't know that a single other editor
would have given me the freedom to try something
different. Mike Marts is a good egg and a good friend!

I for one want to thank Scott for all he has done for the "Alphaverse" and I'll miss his work on AF :(

Ben

[Scarlettspiderg]

Noooooooooooo......

I cant believe Marvel would do this, I was really getting into Alpha Flight.

[Ottawa Renegade]

You've probably done so already Ben, but please thank him on our behalf for his comments. I appreciate that he'd take the time.

[Canucklehead]

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when the only books that are surviving these days are either written by Bendis or Millar, or contain Wolverine as a full time member... or both. If you put the "hottest" writers on the most recognizable titles, and only promote said titles, you are basically making it impossible for the lesser known titles and characters to get a fighting chance.

I'd say this book would have been cancelled no matter which characters or tone were being used. None of the new books can seem to get past the 6-12 issue stage. I'm afraid the only way they can get the numbers they want out of this title is to put someone like Bendis in the writers chair, put an X in the title and have Wolvie guess star for at least the first arc. These would be changes I'm sure few of us would want. It's pretty bad when the band wagoners outnumber the core fans.

D.

[seroquel]

wah! i just got all the back issues to this.

this no selling thing keeps coming up with everything new. wanna know why comics don't sell? huh? well its cause the only place you can get them is the internet! yeah.
i love alpha flight but i could either pay 8 bucks an issue including s&p to pre order it with nothing else/get it within 2 weeks of release or wait until it was a back issue. and this is a problem with alot of other comics too. i love comics as much as the next chick (okay probably alot more) but these books are pretty damn hard to track down. when i actually got to a comic shop in the last few months, they didn't have the back issues because everythign has a 5 copy run. rrr! (they did curiously enough have a special old issue of AF bundle pack ON THE SHELF! not in the musty boxes)
i will curb my bloody mary induced rant, and get to the point. comic companies need to figure out how to get comics to the public. that is half the battle. (Go Joe) why is the AF trade 1-6 coming out now when the book is getting canceled? why wasn't it rushed or released the month #6 came out so people could get psyched for the next arc? those trades go to many many stores normal monthly magazine comics don't, like in rural areas where there is nothing. i bought a freaking strangers in paradise tp at my local bookstore but i can't get most issues of spiderman (for example) or astonishing xmen. but i can get the new rogue series (ugh).
okay this is the last time i will rant on this topic since i have been here before. but the point is people can't buy what they can't get.
whew. okay.... urge to kill falling...falling

[PWalk]

Well it's been a good run. It's just a shame we couldn't get a longer commitment from Marvel on this series.

We need Lobdell in here again to answer some questions.

[siskods9]

have been a af fan since the 1st series and although series 2 had potential this one was almost unreadable from a long time fan, i could see why non-alpha fans didn't pick it up. i just wish someone would treat this series with the respect they deserve and the tales that are sitting there waiting to be told. i mean how many times has mac died? what about the hudson baby? wheres northstar and aurora? wildchild? snowbird dies and came back again. wheres talisman?


ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

i wish someone would just put out a alpha title, not a "artists rendition" of alpha flight.

who does every one want to see as avengers? cap/thor/iron man

who does everyone want to see in the jla? bat/supes/gl/mm/wonderwoman/flash etc......

when these series were struggling the core members were never there. yet dc and marvel would put a jla or avengers logo on a book and call it avengers or jla with characters that weren't.

now i am by no means sating alpha is in that category, but isn't 2 failed series enough for someone on the top floor of marvel to realize fans may want the originals?

thanks scott lobdell. you may want to work on your stand up act because comic book humor is not your strong point.
Back to top
This was a quote from another sight that i think reflects what a lot of alpha flight fans think.

[DelBubs]

Hiya Siskods, welcome. While I can identify with most of what your saying, at the end of the day Marvel should maybe pre-empt comics going bye-bye by actually promoting the book in question. If as can be gleaned from Scotts message AF has been down for cancellation for a few months, then maybe pushing it a bit more or changing the direction could have helped. Marvel pushes it mainstream titles and lets the second stringers die. AF vol 3 didn't appeal to everyone, but with a little bit of effort it could have appealed to more.

[Ben]

That's just it, the cancellation was premature! Yes, I can understand ending a book that has low sales, but you would think they would at least try and find out WHY those sales were low, and if they could have been improved. This was not really AF vol.3, this was All New, All Different Alpha Flight, volume 1. Marvel did no promotion, no guest appearances, no adds, no pinups, no mentions in other titles, and they didn't even bloodywell offer it as a subscription. They put it on the shelves and expect people to find it. Alpha Flight has a large fanbase that would not necesarily be buying other books, and would have no reason of going into the comic shop to see it was there. That being said, after the fact when the sales were low, rather than altering the direction of the book to please more fans, or changing writers (which I personally didn't want to see happen, but would have rathered that then the end of the book); they just threw it away. "Well that didn't work".

I'm ranting now, and am going to go back to working on the Fight For The Flight (http://save.alphaflight.net)

P.S. Welcome siskods9! Try not to sit on any of the midgets in the cupboard.

Ben

[Cliff]

Sheesh...I feel bad now and I didnt' even do anything.

Unfortunately, this doesn't come as much of a surprise as the title re-launch wasn't taken seriouly from the get go. Turning AF into a jokey book was a bad idea to start with and Lobdell obviously gave an honest assessment when he said that AF was "going to get the treatment he thought they deserved." He felt they needed to be driven into the ground and lined up for cancelation with other lame Marvel titles. He definitely accomplished that.

I'm reading Vol2 for the first time having picked up all the back issues since joining this forum and it's 10 times better than Vol3. Knowing that a TPB is due out soon comprising Vol2 storyline I can only hope that Vol3 was a meek attempt to get AF some "face time", following that up with the TPB and then a proper re-launch around February once recognition is back. I mean, Marvel has to know they have us regulars, so there's a thousand copies right there (lol).

I guess that's really the question: How do you change the team or the book for what ammounts to a predominantly American audience?

I'll tell ya this, AF deserves much better than what Marvel and Lobdell have left us with....much better.

[DelBubs]

I'm reading Vol2 for the first time having picked up all the back issues since joining this forum and it's 10 times better than Vol3. Knowing that a TPB is due out soon comprising Vol2 storyline I can only hope that Vol3 was a meek attempt to get AF some "face time", following that up with the TPB and then a proper re-launch around February once recognition is back. I mean, Marvel has to know they have us regulars, so there's a thousand copies right there (lol).

I guess that's really the question: How do you change the team or the book for what ammounts to a predominantly American audience?

I'll tell ya this, AF deserves much better than what Marvel and Lobdell have left us with....much better.

I gotta disagree about vol 2 being better than vol 3, but on all your other points I'll agree with. To make AF appealing enough to become a viable proposition, then I think any writer is gonna have to go back to what Byrne did. AF at that time was a top three book and was at it's peak. Comics tend to go tits up when writers try to stamp their own mark on an established book. I'm not sugesting getting Byrne back on the book (god forbid), but the originals with strong non comedic stories would be a start.

[maniac mike]

Hey everybody, Rich Johnston who does his weekly "Lying In The Gutters" column over at comicbookresources has the e-mail Scott Lobdell sent to Ben today.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13

MM :!:

[DMK]

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think the book's cancellation is premature. Here's Paul O'Brien's sales figures for Alpha Flight v3:

102. ALPHA FLIGHT
Mar Alpha Flight #1 - 42,586
Apr Alpha Flight #2 - 36,551 (-14.2%)
May Alpha Flight #3 - 32,684 (-10.6%)
Jun Alpha Flight #4 - 29,384 (-10.1%)
Jul Alpha Flight #5 - 26,879 ( -8.5%)
Aug Alpha Flight #6 - 25,004 ( -7.0%)
Sep Alpha Flight #7 - 23,280 ( -6.9%)
Oct Alpha Flight #8 - 21,956 ( -5.7%)
6 mnth (-39.9%)

Simply put, the book is hemmoraghing readers, with no hope in sight. It's probably already at the point where it is unprofitable.

Let's compare to She-Hulk, which is getting a relaunch and a publicity push next year:

91. SHE-HULK
Mar She-Hulk #1 - 34,499
Apr She-Hulk #2 - 30,779 (-10.8%)
May She-Hulk #3 - 29,662 ( -3.6%)
Jun She-Hulk #4 - 27,648 ( -6.8%)
Jul She-Hulk #5 - 25,788 ( -6.7%)
Aug She-Hulk #6 - 24,751 ( -4.0%)
Sep She-Hulk #7 - 25,303 ( +2.2%)
Oct She-Hulk #8 - 24,929 ( -1.5%)
6 mnth (-19.0%)

While She-Hulk started out at considerably lower numbers than Alpha, its loss rate per issue has been considerably lower, and it even experienced a sales increase with #7. It's easy to see why Marvel wants to give it a push... it's stabilized a lot more than Alpha Flight, and has already bottomed out at a higher rate than Alpha has. Going by the sales trends Alpha hasn't bottomed out yet.

I'm going to miss the book though. I really enjoyed Sasquatch, MML Jr. and Centennial, and I think I could have grown to like Puck II. Yukon Jack didn't do anything for me and neither did Scott's take on Nemesis.

The only bright side is that I've been looking to cut some books to save money, and this is one "slot" I won't have to actively cut. Marvel's done it for me. (Not that I ever would have cut Alpha if it was still being published.)

[Ben]

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think the book's cancellation is premature. Here's Paul O'Brien's sales figures for Alpha Flight v3:


I think that any cancellation is premature if the publisher hasn't done a thing to promote and publisize the title. You're right, the sales figures sucked, but how were people to know it was out there? It was a very different book, so the normal lot of X-heads that would have tried it for a few issues didn't stay, but new readers who would enjoy that kind of thing, or classic AF fans that don't commonly visit a comic shop or news site wouldn't know it's out there.

Ben

[DelBubs]

Just a question for ya Ben, if that group of characters and that type of story had appeared in a comic without AF on the cover, would you have still been here discussing it? I couldn't honestly swear to being able to say yes. Many classic AF fans are still looking for just that 'Classic AF'. The nearest we have got to that recently was in Wolvie #171-172 (??)

If AF are ever going to have a viable series that the originals would seem the way to go. Oh and of course a little bit of support from Marvel :-)

Duran Duran have been on the scene for 20+ years, but it has only been the return to the original line-up and music format that gave them a recent chart success.

[Ben]

Just a question for ya Ben, if that group of characters and that type of story had appeared in a comic without AF on the cover, would you have still been here discussing it? I couldn't honestly swear to being able to say yes. Many classic AF fans are still looking for just that 'Classic AF'. The nearest we have got to that recently was in Wolvie #171-172 (??)

If AF are ever going to have a viable series that the originals would seem the way to go. Oh and of course a little bit of support from Marvel :-)

Duran Duran have been on the scene for 20+ years, but it has only been the return to the original line-up and music format that gave them a recent chart success.

I probably wouldn't have known about it, as it wouldln't have been promoted. had i seen promotion for it, it probably would have caught my attention. No, I probably wouldn't be as attached to it, or defending it as vehemently, but would have enjoyed it if something had caught my attention enough to try it out.

And I enjoy when bands try new things, sometimes it works for me, sometimes it doesn't :)

Ben

[Mokole]

But does anyone think X-Men would do so well if Rogue, Gambit, Wolverine et al got ignored, it got cut down to one book emphasizing humour, and the only characters were Xavier, twice dead Grey, Cyclops, Iceman, Beast, and Angel??

Say they did that with Ultimate X-Men. First six issues is a 'meet the team spiel' with a downbeat plot about fighting Kree that wind up being in eggs, next two they sort of fight a goofy enemy (say Mr. Impossible), then they go on a time travel quest to prevent the death of... Mesmero. All in all they spend $0 on promoting the book.

Think that would top the charts by #9?

Basically that's what we seem to be dealing with on AF these days. People would not buy it as much without their 'essential x-men' and would drop it over time, only fangirls would make it profitable. No point in worrying about money not spent, says Quesada. But you know sooner or later they'd drop this failed x-men and replace it with more interesting characters and plots.

Go back to Byrne AF if they must but don't do Byrne stories, more Hudnall and Furman action and directiveness, plus somebody beyonf BYrne AF must be included.

[Ben]

Hey everybody, Rich Johnston who does his weekly "Lying In The Gutters" column over at comicbookresources has the e-mail Scott Lobdell sent to Ben today.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13

MM :!:

This is why the forum has been hit so heavy today. Just this thread got about 2500 hits today, and the forum has never had so many visitors at once. On that note, I would like to welcome all new members that found thier way here through such means :)

Ben

[DelBubs]

Ben : I enjoy when new things are tried, but nowadays, like AF, Duran Duran has more of a cult following than a mainstream one. If you alienate the main core of readers/listeners then sales are going to plummet. Marvel didn't promote the book so new readers didn't come aboard, old readers walked because they didn't get what they expected. Die-Hards (and I include myself in that) continue to support the series cos some form of AF is better than non at all.

Mokole : AF needs Heather, Shaman, Sas, Puck, Snowbird and a mixture of others from vol 2 and vol 3. Mac has had his day, Maddy Jeffries, Wildchild and to some degree Aurora are all as mad as march hares and Northstar is tainted by the X.

[Cliff]

Ben : I enjoy when new things are tried, but nowadays, like AF, Duran Duran has more of a cult following than a mainstream one. If you alienate the main core of readers/listeners then sales are going to plummet. Marvel didn't promote the book so new readers didn't come aboard, old readers walked because they didn't get what they expected. Die-Hards (and I include myself in that) continue to support the series cos some form of AF is better than non at all.

Dead on...well said.


Mokole : AF needs Heather, Shaman, Sas, Puck, Snowbird and a mixture of others from vol 2 and vol 3. Mac has had his day, Maddy Jeffries, Wildchild and to some degree Aurora are all as mad as march hares and Northstar is tainted by the X.

Well, I don't know about that. Shaman and Sasquatch are probably necessary for sure and maybe Heather and Puck and Snowbird for good measure, but I think they could just be in a support role rather than main-line characters. The thing is, I'm not sure Alph Flight has been established yet. Now bear with me for two seconds, but other than the Byrne issues, this team has been based on one conspiracy or brainwashing attempt after another from the beginning and the only thing that comes close to hitting near the center of the target as far as core theme is the mysticism element (Shaman, Talisman, Snowbird and Sas). However, there's never been a "mission" for poor AF and so they always play like a bickering, cut rate Avengers to those readers less apt to really get into the stories.

From my point of view they are more like the Fantastic Four and should be handled in that style - like a family, brought together by beuraucracy but staying together because of their friendships and personal relationships that run more deeply. I'm beginning to see that I'm in the minority around here too, but I gotta say that the only writer to have come nearest to that feel and what I expect from AF each time I pick up an issue is the Byrne model. I say bring him back to do, say , ten issues and get some kind of ball rolling, then hand it off to some brand new up and comer with good story telling chops.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Ben, The sad thing is....that about 42,000+ readers DID know AF was out there....and half of those readers dropped it from issues one to eight. BTW....nobody should be blaming those readers for dropping the series, if they did not like it. Making suggestions that fans buy multiple copies to help sales and pass them out to friends and do advertising(that Marvel should be doing....which I found outrageous, that Marvel would suggest fans do this), is also REALLY unfair, especially if some or more of those fans aren't enjoying the book themselves.

The first story arc(IMO) was the biggest wound(if you will) to the book's sales. It began bleeding to death during the arc(which is a very bad sign)...an arc which was(IMO again) too long and didn't have enough meat to it. I personally was left wanting at issue six and felt cheated. As I said before....I'm paying 3 dollars for this book, I'd like more substance to what I'm reading. To me, it just seemed mostly filler....not what I want to read in a 3 dollar comic.

I felt very alienated as an old school AF fan(for a second time...ugh....Example: Vol 2), as many other older AF fans may have been(again...half the readers....gone?)....The team that I grew up on was out of the picture for several issues, then when they Do appear, they are shipped off to outerspace(not to mention, depicted as not able to handle themselves against a ship they destroyed already once....not how I want to remember my favorite AFers).

Remember, I was one of the fans the book almost lost, but I decided to stick with it....Because I was intrigued by the upcoming storyline(involving Flashback and seeing the past AF teams via timetravel). Those are the ONLY reasons I stayed with the book(I find that sad as well).

I WILL write Marvel(Quesada, etc..) and give them some constructive criticism, because I truly believe they need it. Come on!....two failed relaunches that shoved the older characters aside, intro'ed a slew of newbies(who were too slowly/badly developed, both books had badly thought-out premises(Also IMO), slapped the AF name on them and called it good....Um....Hello?!). There IS a pattern here and I really don't think they're paying attention.

Dana

[Ben]

Ben, The sad thing is....that about 42,000+ readers DID know AF was out there....and half of those readers dropped it from issues one to eight. BTW....nobody should be blaming those readers for dropping the series, if they did not like it.


No, I don't blame the readers for not liking it, but I do blame the overal inustry for making comic readers so fickle these days. Where once fans would have stuck it out during a spell they didn't like, now they just drop it. Not, it's not thier fault, books are expensive, and they are innondated with new titles on a regular basis, rather than having the publisher work on making existing ones work. The thing with those 42000 readers, they were probably only half made up of existing af fans. Lots of people who know about, and read some AF, but there is a world of fans out there that never would have heard about it. In running my site, you have no idea how often I get email to the effect of "wow I had no idea there was a new AF series".


Ben

[cmdrkoenig67]

Ben : I enjoy when new things are tried, but nowadays, like AF, Duran Duran has more of a cult following than a mainstream one. If you alienate the main core of readers/listeners then sales are going to plummet. Marvel didn't promote the book so new readers didn't come aboard, old readers walked because they didn't get what they expected. Die-Hards (and I include myself in that) continue to support the series cos some form of AF is better than none at all.

Mokole : AF needs Heather, Shaman, Sas, Puck, Snowbird and a mixture of others from vol 2 and vol 3. Mac has had his day, Maddy Jeffries, Wildchild and to some degree Aurora are all as mad as march hares and Northstar is tainted by the X.

I'll join Cliff in that "Well said." I have to also include myself as a die-hard AF fan(not that there's anything wrong with that...LOL), who read their adventures from the first appearance in X-Men, but this series almost lost me(since money is tight and I wasn't getting anything from the book that made me happy).

I have to say Mac(Guardian I) is not one of my favorite Alphans, but you CAN'T cut him from the book completely...some folks will disagree with me here, but it wouldn't be truly AF without Mac and Heather around in some fashion(they founded the team, for pete's sake....they belong in the book....somewhere). I feel the same way about the twins, Shaman, Snowbird(if she's alive at the time...this also goes for MAC...GGGRRRRRR! They really need to stop that)...and even to an extent, Puck. IF the characters are alive(and are good characters)....use them. Marvel needs to stop force-feeding us an all new(or 85-99% new) cast with each series and expecting older readers to just lump it, if they don't like it.

Dana

[Cliff]

In our day it was about selling good stories.

Now its more about selling quantity over quality. If a crap book sells, then that's favored over the low sales numbers of a well written book.

[Scarlettspiderg]

Well I've emailed Marvel again (thanking the AF team for the great run) and letting Marvel know they are cancelling a great title.

[DelBubs]

I don't think Marvel have ever taken AF seriously. I couldn't see them allowing Lobdell to write a funny book involving the X. Marvel would never envisage an Alpha disassembled. Alpha has always been the poor cousin, kept on the fringes and used in cross-overs as an after thought. I agree fans are fickle, but I also believe fans are more knowledgeble these days. They can see that Marvel are never going to take anything outside the mainstream books seriously, Alpha will probably get a few guest appearences, but another series. I shan't hold my breath.

On that note, maybe you should run a poll and establish how many fans can see the next 'New Warriors' series getting past #12 :-)

[cmdrkoenig67]

No, I don't blame the readers for not liking it, but I do blame the overal inustry for making comic readers so fickle these days. Where once fans would have stuck it out during a spell they didn't like, now they just drop it. Not, it's not thier fault, books are expensive, and they are innondated with new titles on a regular basis, rather than having the publisher work on making existing ones work. The thing with those 42000 readers, they were probably only half made up of existing af fans. Lots of people who know about, and read some AF, but there is a world of fans out there that never would have heard about it. In running my site, you have no idea how often I get email to the effect of "wow I had no idea there was a new AF series".
Ben

This is not a personal attack, but I really disagree.

I doubt very much that half of the 42,000 readers were non-AF readers How could that be possible? Did they just pick the book up on a whim or did a friend suggest they buy it? I doubt it very much....that's a big reach.

I would more believe that almost 65-75% were established AF fans. Regardless....42,000 people KNEW the book was being published AND picked up the first issue....AND half that number dropped it by issue 8. They obviously found something quite important "wrong" with the series and couldn't continue to buy it. I don't want to fall into blaming Marvel for the lack of advertising.....the first issue sold 42000+ copies!!! Granted they should have promoted the book....period.

Who do I blame for alienating older fans and losing sales? Marvel...and rightly so.

Dana

Edited for mispellings and other assorted typoes. :D

[Cliff]

I don't think Marvel have ever taken AF seriously. I couldn't see them allowing Lobdell to write a funny book involving the X. Marvel would never envisage an Alpha disassembled. Alpha has always been the poor cousin, kept on the fringes and used in cross-overs as an after thought

Kinda like most Americans think of Canada in general, huh? :lol:

Seriously though, the 42,000 number is very close to Byrne's "Faithful 50", as he calls them. 50k copies sure to sell every time Byrne does an issue of any given title. I've long though that that was the general loyalty base number and the 42k numbers for AF here sort of bear that out, and I agree that those are your core, regular AF fan base mainly, not the casual reader.

But lets say for the sake opf argument that only have are the totally loyal, hard-core AF fans that will buy anything AF and the other half are casual, "pick it up and try it out" readers. If any given title does that poorly over the course of a year, the trouble can't possibly be lack of intrest. If it were simply down to lack of interest, sales wouldn't have declined, they would have just stopped. Marvel would have seen the numbers go from 42k to 21k in a matter of a month or two and not dwindle over an entire year. I think it 's short sighted of Marvel and it quite frankly makes me a little angry to see that they are shooting for Spiderman/X-men level sales or bust all the while knowing that AF is not going to be nor has ever been a main-stream title. Why even publish "fringe" books if you have no faith in them?

(title run - hiatus + writer/artist = shelf popularity & sales)?

[Scarlettspiderg]

I doubt very much that half of the 42,000 readers were non-AF readers How could that be possible? Did they just pick the book up on a whim or did a friend suggested they buy it? I doubt it very much....that's a big reach.

Just like to say I'm one of those "on a whim" people, I picked up issue 1 just to see what its like and got fixated on a team that was a laugh to read.

[Phil]

I've got nothing to add to this thread, but it seems to be where the "cool kids" are hanging out. 8)

[cmdrkoenig67]

Well I've emailed Marvel again (thanking the AF team for the great run) and letting Marvel know they are cancelling a great title.

Could you post that email address, Scarlettspiderg....or anybody else that knows it(I've been having trouble finding it).

Dana

[Ben]

Write to:

Alpha Flight c/o Marvel Comics
10 East 40th st.
New York, Ny
10016

Email: officex@marvel.com


and yes, I agree that the blame is not only on advertising, most of it is in lack of reaction to falling sales.

Ben

[Cliff]

Well, they "reacted" alright... :?

[Ottawa Renegade]

Hey everybody, Rich Johnston who does his weekly "Lying In The Gutters" column over at comicbookresources has the e-mail Scott Lobdell sent to Ben today.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13

MM :!:

Whoa! Are we famous now? Glad I combed my hair and that I'm wearing nearly clean underwear... :wink:

[DelBubs]

Okay, hands in the air, how many here thought that when Alpha got the new series that it would get into double figures. Personally I didn't see it getting as far as it did. Now either Marvel try and figure out why second string books don't become first string or give up on the idea and just publish Silver age characters with periodic major changes that in the long run revert to the norm.
Onslaught, Disassembled etc.

AF could have worked and it was suggested that Marvel didn't expect the book to be selling 100,000 plus. However, that shouldn't have stopped them from making changes when sales figures started to fall. Then again Marvel have ben playing that game for as long as I care to remember.

[HappyCanuck]

Well, they "reacted" alright... :?

Too damned right: it's like cutting off a finger becuase of a cut because you're afraid of gangrene - instead of fixing it up, getting it better, they just euthanise it instead, chopping it off. Really premature. Also, comparing v.3 to She-Hulk is the same as comparing v.2 to Deadpool (a waste of paper for the most part, imo): they are promoting and helping She-Hulk, but not Alpha - AGAIN.

[Ottawa Renegade]

...if that group of characters and that type of story had appeared in a comic without AF on the cover, would you have still been here discussing it?

I sure as hell wouldn't. In fact, if there had been any indication that there would be no "classic" content I wouldn't have given it a second glance.

[Barnacle13]

Surprised? Who could be? This still sucks!!!!!!!!! Marvel has done little, other than ask the loyal readers to peddle their wares, to keep this title afloat. When talk first started on the old Alpha Waves group, folks speculated about the team's makeup. I can't remember any of the lists offering up only one core AF member. Invariably they all included Mac, Heather, or both to lead. I can't remember too many lists that didn't include Sasquatch for muscle. Guess they got that one right. There were a lot of Puck fans out there too. Kinda got that. Not! After that there was a lot of division over the twins, Snowbird, Shaman, Talisman, etc. There were arguments to add a couple Vol.2 characters like Flex, Radius, Ghost Girl, but certainly not Murmur. We didn't get any of them. Alienated all of the Vol 2 fans right out the gate. Hell they didn't even get a trip to outerspace. Instead we get all new, all different. Not much there for the die hards (yep I'm one of those, too). So team makeup was definitely a bad start.

Then, let's not market our product at all. Would Coke have won the cola wars or McDonald's the burger wars if they didn't advertise? I think not! They'd be asking "Where's the beef?" Marvel never gave this or any of their fringe relaunches a chance. I've seen readers complain they can't regularly get AF in their town and when they do get to a store it's sold out. Sounds to me like more issues could have been sold if they were available at the comic shops. Even more could have been sold had they offered subscriptions. I get at least 6 magazines at the house every month, but it was impossible to get AF delivered to my doorstep without a heafty shipping and handling charge. And then when I do go to the comic shop I see Spider-man, Avengers, Daredevil, and Fantastic Four comics for $0.25, $0.99, $0.25, and $0.12 respectively. I bet that boosted their sells that month! Probably also got some pick it up and try it readers as well. You'd think this would be a ploy they'd try on a new series, to generate some interest, but instead they use it for some tried and true titles. I picked them all up and guess what....Cap was in the Avengers, Spider-man swung through his pages, and the Fantastic Four had all four originals. How ODD! Follow this up with the fact that I leaf through my daughter's copy of Mary Jane and find a deep discount for subscriptions to X-titles and Spidey titles. Again I'm sure that helped keep their sales numbers up despite the crappy stories. AF could've used this kind of help to get started. Plus once you're signed up for a year, you've already bought those books. Would've taken us all right up to cancellation! Marvel knows they have sold that many copies and can work on increasing the numbers, rather than watching them dwindle away.

I guess it'll be another 5 years before I buy another Marvel comic.

Ben, make sure you let me know when/if they put Alpha back on the stands!

Tom

[Ottawa Renegade]

I have to say Mac(Guardian I) is not one of my favorite Alphans, but you CAN'T cut him from the book completely...some folks will disagree with me here, but it wouldn't be truly AF without Mac and Heather around in some fashion(they founded the team, for pete's sake....they belong in the book....somewhere). I feel the same way about the twins, Shaman, Snowbird(if she's alive at the time...this also goes for MAC...GGGRRRRRR! They really need to stop that)...and even to an extent, Puck. IF the characters are alive(and are good characters)....use them. Marvel needs to stop force-feeding us an all new(or 85-99% new) cast with each series and expecting older readers to just lump it, if they don't like it.

Dana

Well, Mac IS my favourite and even so I'd be happy with a "consultant" type of role, or moral support, something like that.

Puck, meanwhile, I consider to be the glue or conscience of this team. I liked his characterization in V2. I hated the character when I was first introduced to Alpha Flight but have grown to consider him a necessary part of the team. In fact, I think he should lead.

[Ottawa Renegade]

I don't think Marvel have ever taken AF seriously. I couldn't see them allowing Lobdell to write a funny book involving the X.

I agree. On a previous visit here I was trying to recall if anything liek this had been attempted witht he X-Men in the past. I couldn't come up with anything but because I don't follow them I thought maybe I just wasn't aware of it.

[Ottawa Renegade]

Okay, hands in the air, how many here thought that when Alpha got the new series that it would get into double figures.

A year is about what I expected. Maybe 15 issues.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Write to:

Alpha Flight c/o Marvel Comics
10 East 40th st.
New York, Ny
10016

Email: officex@marvel.com

Ben

Thanks Ben. :D

Dana

[Le Messor]

Where would we expect Marvel to advertise that'd pick up all those people who don't walk into comic shops any more?

- Le Messor
"Don't fear the reaper."
- Blue Oyster Cult

[Ben]

Where would we expect Marvel to advertise that'd pick up all those people who don't walk into comic shops any more?



It could be something as simple as a catchy poster to stick in a shop window. Online advertising, or in related publications like Wizard. I'm not saying they go out and get TV ads, but it wouldn't kill them to add a 30 second plug at the beginning of one of their movies for an lesser known book.

Ben

[Le Messor]

The online might work, (but where would you put it?) and a movie spot has a HUGE chance of reaching the target audience - but an ad in a shop window, unless it's a well-placed shop (which comic shops rarely are) and something in Wizard are both highly unlikely to reach non-comics readers. Even ex-comic readers.

- Le Messor
'Once again, the Hellmouth puts the special in special occasion.'
- Oz

[Ben]

The online might work, (but where would you put it?) and a movie spot has a HUGE chance of reaching the target audience - but an ad in a shop window, unless it's a well-placed shop (which comic shops rarely are) and something in Wizard are both highly unlikely to reach non-comics readers. Even ex-comic readers.


As for where to put it online, that would be a matter of figuring out your demographic, finding other common interests of older comic readers...I assume that that kind of data and research is what Marvel's advertising department would be paid to figure out ;) I have thought that using all the comic movies would be such a great way to get new readers in general to the comics, and draw back former readers. Wizard may be a stretch, I was that even when I don't buy comics much, I'll often grab a copie of wizard. Posters, again I was thinking of what I know, which are shops on PEI and in Halifax, many of which are on busy streets that people often walk by.

Ben

[Defunct]

Well damn.

That hit me like a tonne of bricks. Took me long enough to find out, too. . . . Damn. I don't think I've ever been actually upset over a book getting canceled. That's just. . . . Damn.

[Le Messor]

I'll often grab a copie of wizard. Posters, again I was thinking of what I know, which are shops on PEI and in Halifax, many of which are on busy streets that people often walk by.

Good points all.

I've never grabbed Wizard, even in my Halcyon days. Actually, I just like -saying- Halcyon days. But, if you do, even when you're not reading comics, I figure others must as well.

None of the comic shops around here are on busy streets, and I figured they were too much of a niche market to afford a good location anywhere. Well, you blew that theory.
(Of course, one of mine used to be part of the best music store in town, so that would've worked anyway; go in for the CDs, notice the comics.)

- Le Messor
"Sometimes, I imagine two women casting a spell together, and I go cast a spell by myself."
- Xander

[cmdrkoenig67]

Hey everybody, Rich Johnston who does his weekly "Lying In The Gutters" column over at comicbookresources has the e-mail Scott Lobdell sent to Ben today.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13

MM :!:

Whoa! Are we famous now? Glad I combed my hair and that I'm wearing nearly clean underwear... :wink:

The Mark Millar section has a really incorrect statement....stating that millar created the world's first gay superheroes....WRONG!

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

I discussed the possibity of forgoing my payment --
and creating a six issue arc that takes place in
NEMESIS and CENTENIAL's shared past so that it could
justifiably be printed in black and white (which means
it would be cheaper to produce in terms of costs, sans
writing and coloring)...but alas, the only reaction I
got was "We do not publish black and white comics at
this time." Umm. You COULD publish black and white
comics if you WANT to...no one is showing up at the
printers with three hundred gallons of colored ink
pouring it onto the presses. Sigh.)


Um....Marvel IS publishing B&W comics right now.....(Why would Scott and/or Marvel say that?)....Bram Stoker's Dracula!...And aren't the Essential comic trades B&W also? Very weird. :?

Dana

[Cliff]

Stroker's is in the Essential line, but still...those are B/W books.

[kozzi24]

Delbubs wrote:
Personally I didn't see it getting as far as it did. Now either Marvel try and figure out why second string books don't become first string or give up on the idea and just publish Silver age characters with periodic major changes that in the long run revert to the norm.

2nd string do become first string from time to time. I can remember the example of something so second string it was a REPRINT book until new creative team was brought on to write what was something of an editorial mandate of creating an international team that would appeal as exotic to Americans and garner better foreign sales for the foreign (Irish, Russian, African, Canadian and German heroes) market.

The differences: there was marketing input on the book. The stories in that "new series" were good comics that respected what had been done in the title before.

Clayton Henry's art was a boost for this title. Hopefully he will be a superstar someday. I like Scott Lobdell, and he has done some mighty fine work over the years, but Scott's stories really killed this book. (IMO) The first arc was too long for the content. Readers today don't have the patience to wait to see what a character's powers are. I think the sales would have been even lower in the long run if Scott had not been manipulating the core AF fans with teasers of the originals, both in the first arc and the Flashback four parter.

A bad-girl character could have boosted sales with her titllating costume and cheek kicking. Did we see her first fight? No, we were given a brief glimpse of Sasquatch's compliments of something the reader didn't see.

With Alpha members fighting each other being such a theme in AF history, the scramble-the-plodex eggs or save-them fight should have been an issue unto itself, not a cutesy dog pile on Sasquatch.

Was a character like the manipmator supposed to fraw new readers? Here, Scott had the opportunity to draw some interest with the "guest appearances" but when the villain turns out to be a lame joke, that opportunity is also lost.

Scott had some really great ideas thrown in this title, but if the cream is lumpy and sour when it floats to the top, you don't drink that cup of coffee, do you?

[Scarlettspiderg]

Taking the "fight for the flight" direct (via email) to Mr. Quesada (Marvels EiC) I got this response:

Gary:

Thanks for dropping me a line. I understand your concern and we try to keep
our books around as long as possible.

JQ


It seems Marvel are reading the emails, so if we keep sending them and buying AF there may be hope!

[DelBubs]

It would have read better if he had wrote :
Hi Gary, thanks for your mail, unfortunately we couldn't give a flying **** for Alpha Flight, but it was the only way to keep you sodding Flight freaks quiet for a while. We're kinda sorry that the series never took off. However you would think that after all the years we've been in business, we could at least have come up with a concept which would last longer than a year. Then again what the eh, we made a few bob out of it and as I said, you Alpha freaks have had your appetite sated for a while. Sorry, gotta dash, I've come over all cyclical. Take care love Joey Da Q.

I know it's a bit longer than his original, but at least mine actually says somthing :-)

[Scarlettspiderg]

But he is reading and responding to emails, so remember to email Joe (and Marvel) and say that you want AF to stay :)

[Le Messor]

Dear (Whoever),

This is not a form letter. Why would you think it was?

Joe Q

[kozzi24]

I'm with borh Scarlet and the reaper on this one.
Yes, it was probably a form letter. That said, someone took the time to do the cut and paste to acknowledge his e-mail. That doesn't happen all that often, now does it? Has anyone gotten an acknowledgement of their e-mails when sending about this series before?

[Ahab]

The fact that they never even promoted the series in the beginning was a disturbing indication of how much Marvel wanted this series to be successful, IMO. One has to wonder in that case, why bother?

[cmdrkoenig67]

I know why the series failed and so do plenty of other folks here. The book needs to have the actual Alpha Flight in it. I stated my case once and I'll continue to do it, here and elsewhere.

Why did both the second and third series fail like they did?.....the current series did not fail because of the lack of promotion...my evidence? 42,000 plus first issues sold....that is a huge number for a book with barely any peep of promotion! The majority of those sales HAD to be from established AF fans. To say otherwise is just being blind and ignorant.

I believe the current series failed to hold onto many of the older fans of AF(hence the halving of sales by issue 8). The sagging sales of volume two began to rise when the original members started showing up, near it's end. Both series alienated established fans, by excluding characters from the original 130 issue run of the series and trying to force-feed us a slew of new characters.

Do you need more evidence?....just look at your avatars, folks. An overwhelming number of our picture avatars have original Alpha characters in them(including you Phil :P ), almost all the avatars are from volume one.

Dana

[Scarlettspiderg]

I dont think the missing of the original AF is the reason for V3 (or for that matter V2's) downfall, please note that what follows is imo.

Alpha Flight (And I now count myself as a big fan and love all incarnations) is'nt that well known, ask any non-Marvel fan to name some teams and you will proberly end up with alot of X-'s, Avengers and Fantastic Four.

Its the same with alot of Marvels 2nd stringers - they are not too well known, its up to the Publisher (in this case Marvel) to push a character (or team) into 1st string catergory. Marvel should have had AF appear in a few other titles (tie-in to Avengers Dissassembed, or stick the AD logo on the title for one issue?), there should have also been a build up of AF appearances and mentions of AF in other titles, instead (due to the current state of the MU) no other book mentioned Alpha Flight reforming.

Lots of titles (Giant Size X-Men, New X-Force/X-Statix -which I didnt like) have done well with the minimal amount of the original team in place, where as some titles (X-Factor v1, X-Force -current) did/are doing medicore with regular characters in place.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Lots of titles (Giant Size X-Men, New X-Force/X-Statix -which I didnt like) have done well with the minimal amount of the original team in place, where as some titles (X-Factor v1, X-Force -current) did/are doing medicore with regular characters in place.

Ah, true Scarlettspiderg, but none of those books is Alpha Flight and Alpha Flight is not any of those books.

Dana

[maniac mike]

The bad thing about canceling v.3 is that I started to actually like the characters better than in v.2, oh well. :(

Maybe we can at least get a limited series out of AF (the originals) like they did for the Thunderbolts. :?

MM :^o

[Mokole]

Well, v2 had buld up in Marvel magazines and X-Man where Dept. H and Aurora appeared.

THis time we got nada, and so it goes. Quesada knows AF can sell well but I have no idea why he never allowed it to be marketed.

[kozzi24]

This volume had Weapon X as a build up...until AF v3 #1 appeared and none of that ongoing stuff was mentioned and most of the characters were ill-defined unknowns. Aurora had been kidnapped in Wolverine. She's been appearing frequently in Weapon X, under dire straights for the character. Has Sasquatch even thought about, never mind mentioned Aurora's absence? They were lovers who still had some feelings for each other.

Some of the (even) older guys may have to answer this, but did Marvel really promote Uncanny X-Men following GS #1? I remember only seeing as for the new team were the ads with one of the X-Men (Wolvie?) leaning on an RIP Thunderbird tombstone, and if memory serves, that was after Byrne had left the book.

Word of mouth made the X-Men was it is today because those were great comics. I really tried the pass along an extra issue thing with AFv3, and none of the recipients liked the freebee enough to by a consecutive issue.

Marvel did try promoting recent books such as Captain Marvel and Priest's Black Panther. The former was give-and-take sometimes, but BP was great stuff, although I will admit the length and inconguity of the Casper Cole stuff was losing me. Neither book is still among us, although both characters are making combacks of sorts.

My other example is my long standing general boredom with the Inhumans, from the first I saw of them as new charaters (probably in early X-Factor or late 80's FF.) I found the characters boring. Some neat concepts, but my mind was full of "how does Medusa know exactly what hBolt's think if she's not telepathic" type questions and I generally found the characters boring. Then BANG! I got the first issue of Jenkin's MK run and bought every issue with eager interest. I told people how great it was. Some bought it regularly because they also liked it. Then BANG! The next 4-ish limited series followed, back to boring Inhumans. I gave the latest volume a try. EVEN MORE BORING and this wasn't even the same characters.

I don't blame Scott Lobdell entirely because I know of the editorial mandate that suggested he try mixing his AF pitch with another pitch. I have really enjoyed some of Lobdell's stuff, but this run's biggest detriment was the writing and character choice, and at least half of that combination is entirely Scott.

And asking non-Marvel fans to name Marvel teams will get very different responses if you as a 20 year old, or 30 or 40.

At least part of how much time it will be before we see a V4 is how well the trades do.

All IMHO

[cmdrkoenig67]

Hey....I just had a thought. Does anybody know how AF's appearances in the recent X-Men series, X-Men Unlmtd and Wolverine sold....or if we can find out? I mean those issues' sales as opposed to a few issues on each side of the appearances.

I was just curious.

Dana

[kozzi24]

Some of the guys here either seem to know how to find the back records or saved them independently.
I'm not one of them, but a very good question.

[Ahab]

I know why the series failed and so do plenty of other folks here. The book needs to have the actual Alpha Flight in it. I stated my case once and I'll continue to do it, here and elsewhere.

Why did both the second and third series fail like they did?.....the current series did not fail because of the lack of promotion...my evidence? 42,000 plus first issues sold....that is a huge number for a book with barely any peep of promotion! The majority of those sales HAD to be from established AF fans. To say otherwise is just being blind and ignorant.
Dana

I would be surprised if the 42,000 copies was because of the rabidness of Alpha Flight fans. I think it was more likely a combo of Alpha fans, Lobdell fans and a large number of people trying out a new book. Then again, that's just my opinion. I certainly don't think, however, that it makes me blind or ignorant for thinking that way.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I apologize about that, Ahab...I was too expressive in that post. I merely mean that the 42,000 + buyers can't in any way be a majority of new buyers. My belief is that the bulk of those buyers are established AF fans.
I'm sure some are Lobdell fans and new buyers, but I doubt very much, that they make up the majority of that number. the blind and ignorant comment was not aimed at anyone and was far too strong to have been used. I apologize to anyone, I may have offended.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

I have to say, just looking at the polls over at Ben's www.alphaflight.net has convinced me even more, that the missing element in the vol 2 and 3 AF books was Alpha Flight itself. That and the jokebook mentality and slow/poor writing is what killed the book, IMO.

Dana

[Ben]

Hello!

I just noticed a surge of activity from some outside source to this topic. I first wanted to welcome all the vistors, and second was hoping some of you may be able to drop me an email, or post here to let me know how you got here. I'm guessing some news site picked up on the link, but am very curious what the source is. email me: ben@alphaflight.net

Thanks,

Ben

[Le Messor]

There's been a lot of talk about promotion, and lending AF to outside readers.
I regularly lend Astonishing X-Men to three people (all Buffy fans) as soon as I get it. I lend stuff like Sandman, Marvels, Watchmen, Claremont / Byrne X-Men, 1602, Kingdom Come, and original AF to friends.
You know, the stuff that makes comics look -good-.
There's a thought among outsiders that comics are just throwaway silliness, one superhero battle after another, meaningless and stupid.
Apart from the battles, AF v3 did nothing to dispel that. I enjoyed it, but would be embarrassed for the medium to lend it out.
And, even if Marvel had promoted it, I doubt it would have kept readers much - it simply wasn't good enough. Too shallow, too silly.

All IM (not) HO, of course.

- Le Messor
"Children seldom misquote you. In fact, they usually repeat word for word what you shouldn’t have said."

[HappyCanuck]

All IM (not) HO, of course.

You aren't giving your honest opinion Mik?! Then, you just lied about all or parts of what you just said....

:? :?:

[Le Messor]

All IM (not) HO, of course.
You aren't giving your honest opinion Mik?! Then, you just lied about all or parts of what you just said....
:? :?:

Oh, it's honest. It's just not humble. 8)

- Le Messor
"Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances."

[DelBubs]

All IM (not) HO, of course.
You aren't giving your honest opinion Mik?! Then, you just lied about all or parts of what you just said....
:? :?:

Oh, it's honest. It's just not humble. 8)

Mik don't do humble, he tried it once and didn't like it. :roll: :wink:

[Le Messor]

Mik don't do humble, he tried it once and didn't like it. :roll: :wink:

Can I help it if I'm too good for humility? 8)

- Le Messor
"It's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys."
- Office inspirational sign