How about....

[Mokole]

Bringing Albert Louis in as Guardian? With his natural energy abilities and time off to develop a feel for them he'd be perfect. Hudsons could then be Vindicator and Weapon Alpha if needed. He'd be a great Guardian. :D

[kozzi24]

Why?
Feedback has powers of his own, so doesn't need a suit that has killed wearers in the past. And if he hears your theory on the suit effecting people's brain wavelengths, I think He'd be even more reluctant.

For a title with less than 200 issues in the can, some of the character names are pretty convoluted as it is. Weapon Alpha to Vindicator to Guardian to Heather as leader to Vindicator to Guardian, staying Guardian when Mac was back, with Mac as Vindicator, then Mac back as Anti-guard, then becomeine Guardian while Heather took a new suit and the Vindicator name while a second Guardian was running around. Why convolute that more.

There's the same problem with Shaman taking his daughter's mantle of Talisman, then her getting it back and he reverting to Shaman.

Madison Jeffries is another example. While wearing a suit to have raw materials on hand is a good idea, his mutant power is actually more powerful than the Box armor.

Let's KISS...Keep It Simple, Silly.

[Ottawa Renegade]

Weapon Alpha to Vindicator to Guardian to Heather as leader to Vindicator to Guardian, staying Guardian when Mac was back, with Mac as Vindicator, then Mac back as Anti-guard, then becomeine Guardian while Heather took a new suit and the Vindicator name while a second Guardian was running around. Why convolute that more.

MML thinks math is hard. He should try following the history of the Guardian/Vindicator name. :shock:

[Mokole]

Oh, I wouldn't want Louis to wear the Mac e-m suit at all, ever. I think his powers and potential make him a perfect Guardian (creates his own force fields, absorbs energy, bio-energy blasts, and of course his simalcrums (sp?), then there's the fact he's not screwed up). In fact, my point is to sort-of retire Vindicator and Weapon Alpha to desk jobs and parental responsibilities, replace Michael with his daughter as Shaman, and bring in Zuzha Yu as Pound, since Puck is still around.

Hudsons run the show and wear their suits part-time (so sometimes neither is on the mission, maybe often), Michael trains Elizabeth and Snowbird when they're at home, while Puck and Sasquatch run Alpha Flight most of the time, with Guardian the most powerful member and future leader. So on most action missions it's one Hudson, Puck, Sasquatch, Shaman, Snowbird, Pound, and Guardian. 8)

Evolution, not remixing. After all, there's no way Mac Hudson is real, the original is dead, dead, dead. :?

Besides, did anyone ever call Johnny Bucyk 'Chief II', or will the next 'Clyde the Glide' be called "Clyde the Glide III"? I always find the Box II, Flash IV, Batman III stuff for people who need a scorecard to tell the Leafs from the Canadiens. The Flash is Wally West, not Flash III or Flash IV. Madison Jeffries is Box, not Box IV.

My idea, IMHO, improves AF while keeping Byrners happy. :)

[cmdrkoenig67]

Zuzha Yu as Pound

Um....Mokole...not many girls would want to be called Pound(Poundcakes aside).

Dana

[Legerd]

Naw, if anyone should wear the Guardian outfit it should be Puck (the original). With his fighting skills and the suit's powers he'd be like Yoda in a battle. :)

[cmdrkoenig67]

Waitaminute!!! Mokole said "then there's the fact he's(Feedback/Albert Louis) not screwed up"Mac might be considered screwed up,....but how is Heather, might I ask?

Dana

[kozzi24]

replace Michael with his daughter as Shaman...Michael trains Elizabeth :)
Actually, Elizabeth is the more powerful mystic. She can COMMAND the spirits while Shaman can only request their aide.
Shaman can conjur anything that can fit through the mouth of the pouch, while Talisman can canjure without size limits.
Talisman is raw, untrained power, but she could teach her old man a thing or two, I'd wager

[HappyCanuck]

Actually, Elizabeth is the more powerful mystic. She can COMMAND the spirits while Shaman can only request their aide.
Shaman can conjur anything that can fit through the mouth of the pouch, while Talisman can canjure without size limits.
Talisman is raw, untrained power, but she could teach her old man a thing or two, I'd wager

Slight glitch with that, Kozzi - Talisman is a Spirit Binder, but has no active power of her own: she needs for magic to be present for her powers to work (hence why she and Shaman teamed up alot in the early days). In a mystical void (where there are bound to be some), Talisman is quite useless without another mystic around.

As long as Mike has the pouch, he's fine, as it seems to be random, chaotic magic that he can form with his will. It wasn't until he became a TRUE Shaman that he was able to request the spirits - part of the test that one pissed-off Talisman helped with, leading into the first Pestilence storyline.

[Mokole]

Waitaminute!!! Mokole said "then there's the fact he's(Feedback/Albert Louis) not screwed up"Mac might be considered screwed up,....but how is Heather, might I ask?

Dana

Twice in v2 Department H brainwashed her. She's seen her husband blown to bits right in front of her. She's seen her 'husband' return three times, once only to be found a synthoid, twice 'he' died again, then came back. Can't be too good for the psyche, all that. :wink:

I still think Louis is the best choice to take on the mantle of Guardian, no need to wear the same suit, no need for batteries, no worries about computer glitches. Why not that Nova Scotian, 1 year more advanced than his last appearance? :D

And Michael has all that experience and knowledge, which is why Elizabeth would need training from him, as Snowbird still does.

[HappyCanuck]

not to meantion Heathers once-unhealthy obsession with the suit, dispite the fact it killed her hubby, and her reluctance to take it off for most of the first series...

[Ben]

The thought of Albert Louis becoming Guardian is just wrong to me. He's one of those characters that I doen't even really think of as part of Alpha Flight. We know nothing of him, he has next to no battle experience. I can't imagine him taking a figurehead role with experienced members all around. Heather is the best choice. I think that with all the adversities she faced and stayed sane is excelent proof of her metal, and leadership skills.

Ben

[HappyCanuck]

As much as I agree with you about Feedback, Ben, I'm still questioning your definition of 'sane' where it concerns Heather. I think it's been pretty well summarised that, for Heather to don the suit, she'd have to be insane, especially with all the trouble she's had in/with the various suits she's worn.

[kozzi24]

I was always iffy on the geosuit she wore, and she should be too, considering the source and being brainwashed. I did cheer the little touch Nicienza put in his Guardian return that he pointed out Heather had accumulated more experience.
I liked Feedback enough, probably my favorite of Furman's creations, but I agree with Ben, he's definitely Beta or Gamma, not figurehead.
You guys are probably right in differences between Shaman and Talisman. Magic characters get used so inconsistently from writer to writer that they are usually the ones I have the hardest time grasping.

[Mokole]

I'm not thinking of Guardian as leader, more as integral to team success and powerful to deny enemies' intentions. In time he'd move up in the command structure but given his power and age he'd work alongside Zuzha to improve the success of Alpha Flight.

Guardian should be a title of enfranchisement and leadership by process.

[oneyoungman]

With her new baby, I'm rather shocked that Heather wants to play super-hero or that Mac would let her.

In AF v4 (or whatever, the next one) I'd like to see the Hudsons retire to raise their family. I can't really see anyone donning their suit(s). Maybe Walter if he ever lost his powers? Or maybe even Mapleleaf?

As for Elizabeth's power-level, I've always assumed that she lost much of her power once the Socerer was defeated. After all, thats what she beacame Talisman to do.
I still think she's as powerful as Shaman though.

[HappyCanuck]

With her new baby, I'm rather shocked that Heather wants to play super-hero or that Mac would let her.

I don't know if 'let her' would be a correct statement. It may have been in their original appearances under Byrne, but something tells me that, after all this time, Heather has become confident enough that NO ONE tells her what to do, especially her husband. However, I do question her wanting to continue doing the work.


As for Elizabeth's power-level, I've always assumed that she lost much of her power once the Socerer was defeated. After all, thats what she beacame Talisman to do.
I still think she's as powerful as Shaman though.

Oh I think Elizabeth is still substantially more powerful than her father in the sheer power department. But power isn't everything, you need to know how to use it. Most of the time, such as when she was dealing with Llan, I think it was mostly her destiny leading her, but otherwise, Talisman is still leanring as she goes. Shaman, however, statistically has less power, but a lot more experience with it, meaning he knows how to use it. Having power and using it are two different things: nearly anyone can use a jackhammer, but only through training and experience will you be able to control it enough to prevent you from punching a hole through a nearby car or your foot.

[cmdrkoenig67]

With her new baby, I'm rather shocked that Heather wants to play super-hero or that Mac would let her.

That's some stone-aged thinking there. If women let their husbands tell them what to do, where to go, etc....this would be a very different world....and not one I'd want to live in.

Dana

[Barnacle13]

"Get back in the kitchen and bake me a pie, Vindicator!"

I don't know it kind has a certain flow to it. :twisted: You sure this wouldn't work?

[HappyCanuck]

"Get back in the kitchen and bake me a pie, Vindicator!"

I don't know it kind has a certain flow to it. :twisted: You sure this wouldn't work?

Sure, if you wanted molten lava shot up yer a**

[oneyoungman]

With her new baby, I'm rather shocked that Heather wants to play super-hero or that Mac would let her.

That's some stone-aged thinking there. If women let their husbands tell them what to do, where to go, etc....this would be a very different world....and not one I'd want to live in.

Dana

Maybe that *was* a bit sexist of me....

but Mac always struck me as the over-protective type.

Besides I don't think Heather ever really wanted to be a super-hero in the first place.

[Ben]

Maybe that *was* a bit sexist of me....

but Mac always struck me as the over-protective type.

Besides I don't think Heather ever really wanted to be a super-hero in the first place.

No, but neither did Mac. Heather has much more experience as a hero, and leader. If one were to stay home, it should be Mac, he could invent stuff on the side, and she could lead the team.

Ben

[kozzi24]

I'm with Ben 110%, for both result and reasons. Heather is the stronger personality, and more proactive rather than reactive

[Barnacle13]

I'd leave them both at home or in administrative roles. Alpha Flight needs a strong leader, but for me these two should be long retired (or dead in Mac's case). Raise the child and a fledgling Alpha Flight at the same time. Use Sas, Snowbird, and Puck to anchor the team and throw in a few other originals and a mix of the newer characters and let her roll. Heather and Mac should both be raising their child! Parenting isn't a single sex duty. It takes two to do it right. Now I'm not saying a single parent can't get the job done with good family support, just that it's much more difficult. Heather and Mac should both be portrayed in the home raising the ir child. Use them both in administartive roles if necessary, but leave the fighting to the others. Sure in an emergency they could dust off the old duds and save the day, but only in an emergency.

[Mokole]

I agree. They should be running Department H and leaving the dangerous job of Alpha Flight to Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird, Elizabeth as Shaman, Box, Zuzha, and Louis as Guardian. Even keep Nemesis. With Mac being dead three times you'd have to wonder if he's even human anymore, has a soul, etc. And Heather being mind-altered by H, seeing her husband die three times, she can't be in a good frame of mind to be a hero and parent.

But Marvel continuity is pretty bad at the best of times...

[HappyCanuck]

I agree. The should be running Department H...

Actually, they should be working to SHUT DOWN Department H. Since it's second inception, DH has been trying to subjugate and manipulate Alpha Flight, make them into their own drones to do as they wish. While their stability may be in question, I don't think they are stupid. To take on the task of running the same department that has tried to use and abuse (and in some cases, kill) them would REALLY be stupid.

[Mokole]

Ah, but in my vision Dept. H is smaller and run by them, so not the manipulators et al. After all, Neither Hudson wanted to be in AF in the first place, the deal was to create a super team and run it, possibly from within Dept. H or even from running it from the Director's chair. It was after early AF that Marvel went back and said Dept. H predated Hudson and was not originally created by him, as it was in early AF incarnations.

After all, they could run whatever administration AF needs, even Foundation Flight or whatever.

[HappyCanuck]

Ah, but in my vision Dept. H is smaller and run by them, so not the manipulators et al. After all, Neither Hudson wanted to be in AF in the first place, the deal was to create a super team and run it, possibly from within Dept. H or even from running it from the Director's chair. It was after early AF that Marvel went back and said Dept. H predated Hudson and was not originally created by him, as it was in early AF incarnations.

After all, they could run whatever administration AF needs, even Foundation Flight or whatever.

Okay, so they are running a programme SIMILAR to the original incarnation of Dept H - that I buy. But something tells me they wouldn't want to use the same name, give the stigma the term brings to mind, for the very reasons I stated before. I'd think that the likes of Chasen and Clarke ruined that nomenclature for them, and I'm sure any returning members would agree. But I do agree that, for the Flight to be useful not only in the protection racket (:D) but in the general safety department, they'd have to incorporate aspects of their larger supposed archetypes, the Avengers and the X-Men - namely in protection (maybe even using their large character base to form regionalised teams, say an East/West division, so to be able to cover a larger area more quickly - remember, Canada IS the second largest country in landmass! - and if they kept using the Arctic Plodex ship as a main base, it'd even things out, considering the rough location its in), and the education of young/newer mutants and metahumans. It's been shown (for example, Kara Killgrave) far too often that mutants and new metas are prone to misusing their abilities, many simply because they can! This also proves to be not only a problem on a national scale (since the mutant percentage has increased exponentially over the last several years - our time), but also detrimental against the harmony between flatscan humans and their metahuman counterparts.

[kozzi24]

Dept H was named for Hudson, no?
Have him be liason, keep Heather in suit...interesting dynamics when Mac as liaison SHOULDN'T give full disclosure

[cmdrkoenig67]

Dept H was named for Hudson, no?
Have him be liason, keep Heather in suit...interesting dynamics when Mac as liaison SHOULDN'T give full disclosure

I don't recall if it was ever stated outright that it was H for Hudson, but I believe that's correct, Kozzi. I see nothing wrong with The Hudson's taking back what is theirs and cleaning up H(it doesn't mean there can't be someone/thing sinister lurking in the shadows still, though).

Mac as Liason or Director(would be better), raising the baby(with Heather's help, of course) and Heather as Guardian(It's not a 24/7 job, people!)....sounds really good to me. Shuffling them off to domestic blahness(and making Heather a housewife) isn't my idea of good(or logical)story-telling. heather has been right there, a part of the team(in a sense)...since issue 1 of the first volume.

Dana

[Legerd]

...But I do agree that, for the Flight to be useful not only in the protection racket (:D) but in the general safety department, they'd have to incorporate aspects of their larger supposed archetypes, the Avengers and the X-Men - namely in protection (maybe even using their large character base to form regionalised teams, say an East/West division, so to be able to cover a larger area more quickly - remember, Canada IS the second largest country in landmass! - and if they kept using the Arctic Plodex ship as a main base, it'd even things out, considering the rough location its in)...

Here's where Lobdell's idea of an 'Uncanny' AF would make sense. Maybe have three books; East Coast Alpha, West Coast Alpha and Central Alpha. Veterans could be spread out amongst the teams and there would be plenty of room for old, unused characters as well as new ones to go instead of into limbo. Of course we'll be lucky to get one book. :roll:

[HappyCanuck]

Here's where Lobdell's idea of an 'Uncanny' AF would make sense. Maybe have three books; East Coast Alpha, West Coast Alpha and Central Alpha. Veterans could be spread out amongst the teams and there would be plenty of room for old, unused characters as well as new ones to go instead of into limbo. Of course we'll be lucky to get one book. :roll:

No that wouldn't work. remember what happened with the Avengers when they split up like that? Yeah. We could just keep it like they did with Beta Flight in the original series: you had your core team doing whatever they do, and the Beta team getting into trouble. Except in this case, you take the E team, show what they are doing/facing, and the W team and what THEY are doing/facing, all in one issue, sort of what they had been doing in Avengers a few years ago. SOmetime the E team or the W team takes centre stage, sometimes it's a solo book, just like everything else. BUT you don't have seventeen titles to keep track of.

[Barnacle13]

No that wouldn't work. remember what happened with the Avengers when they split up like that?

Didn't they run for like 102 issues with West Coast Avengers? That's a better run than anything Alpha has put up since Volume 1. And I actually cared about the second tier team that WCA was comprised of. I can't imagine anyone missing Mockingbird is WCA hadn't happened. Could breathe life into some second tier Alpha characters and give some of the newer fans more of what they want.

[HappyCanuck]

Didn't they run for like 102 issues with West Coast Avengers?

Now take that 102 issues, and compare them to the 500+ for Avengers. That's partially my point. The other part is that, as effective as a two-book series sounds, it's not. I can count on one hand how many time there were interactions between the two teams - not including roster trades. There was no unifying agent between the books; you might as well named one team 'Fred' and the other 'George' instead of Avengers East and Avengers West, because they were two different teams. At least when the X-Men did the Blue/Gold split circa X-Men #1, you could still tell they were the same team, because there was regular interactions between the teams, starting with XM#1. But I'm going off topic here: doing a two tiered team - a good idea - in two different books - a not so good idea - would be disasterous, especially if one book flopped while the other took off. Having both teams in the book, ala Alpha Flight and Beta (Gamma) Flight during the Infinity War/Omega Flight debacle in AF#1.110 (except with more understanding and less grand-standing [Windshear] with the trainees) makes more sence. Even if they did what the new Justice League cartoon does (albeit with significantly less ppl involved), and choose specific people for specific missions based of histories and abilities (this is a good way to use those lesser seen characters more fruitfully). Of course, this doesn't stop them from training those in need, one of their primary goals, as it was in the beginning.

[Barnacle13]

I'm not arguing that it would be better in one book. Alpha doesn't have enough weight at this point to carry two books. I just wanted to point out that if a second book could run for 102 issues it wasn't exactly a flop. Plus as I pointed out it did make the reader care a little more for the likes of Tigra, War Machine, etc. I don't think that happens if they just pop in every once in a blue moon.

[Legerd]

I did consider the Avengers and I did remember that the second book died, but like B13 said the book did last until #102. Plus it gave a lot of (I'm not sure if this is the right word) underused characters a chance to be seen and build a fan base.

You yourself said HC, it would make sense to have a second team based in the Plodex ship (yeah, I know you said nothing about a second book) due to Canada's sheer size. Logically Alpha Flight would have multiple teams to cover all of the country. Personally I can't stand how crowded team books get when there is just one team, imagine trying to pack two teams into one book! If they selected certain heroes due to their skills/powers depending on the threat, as you said, then it could work as a single comic but would ignore the reason for having multiple teams in the first place. As well, IMO, the book would quickly get too messy trying to maintain storylines for so many characters with the alternative being to let some of them drift off into limbo.

The whole problem is that Marvel's Canada has one single super group to protect it while the US has about 95% of the world's heroes to guard it. Ah well, it doesn't matter anyway, there's no chance of a second book of Canadian heroes would ever be written. Maybe if we start a Marvel North or something? :-k

[Le Messor]

Selecting individual heroes per issue would echo real well with Byrne's run. Remember when he did one character at a time, with occasional full-team issues? I liked that, a unique answer to the team-book thing.

US has 95% of the superheroes? Don't you mean New York City? :roll:
Then again, it also has 95% of the world's gun-nuts, and much greater crime because of it. cf: 'Bowling for Columbine'.
If Moore was right about it (and he was mistaken, about a great. Many. Thingsss.), Canada would need only about 10% of the protection.

(Of course, the -real- reason Columbine doesn't happen in other countries is this: It does, Americans just don't hear about it.)

- Le Messor
"Caution: I drive like you do."
- bumper sticker

[Mokole]

Basically half of my ideas have them working out of the Plodex base, Flight School, after SHIELD fight with Dept. H. I just feel a new writer would go back to Dept. H for the Hudsons.

[Legerd]

Selecting individual heroes per issue would echo real well with Byrne's run. Remember when he did one character at a time, with occasional full-team issues? I liked that, a unique answer to the team-book thing.

That was one of the things I didn't like about Byrne's stuff. Sure the occaisional solo adventure is great but I'd rather see the team act more as a team. Books like the FF and Avengers have run for so long in part, because the characters work together on regular basis.

[kozzi24]

I think part of the reason Byrne's approach worked was because of the personalities involved. Read as a whole, you clearly saw the team reforming, not just as working associates, but as friends with their own mini-political alliances within the team. He caught a lot of flak for that back then, but the appraoch worked, in part because it gave him time to develop those one dimensional X-Men throwaway characters with depth and detail.
West Coast Avengers was at time, the superior book to Avengers, and often had more core Avengers in it. The approach was supposed to be different, a "West Coast" feel rather than an East Coast feel, more relaxed, to put it most simply.
And don't forget, Avengers West was cancelled forr a reboot to Force Works, not because of low sales. Force Works, I think, got caught in both the general 90's glut and the Heroes Reborn BS.

[HappyCanuck]

(Of course, the -real- reason Columbine doesn't happen in other countries is this: It does, Americans just don't hear about it.)


Exactly, Mik. There were six reported school shootings in Canada (that I remember, at least) the week of the Columbine shooting, one not too far from where I lived, in YK.

[Mokole]

And don't forget, Avengers West was cancelled forr a reboot to Force Works, not because of low sales. Force Works, I think, got caught in both the general 90's glut and the Heroes Reborn BS.

True. A lot of OK to good books get cancelled or rebooted for no good reason (you think Marvel would've learned their lesson when they had a winner with Thunderbolts, retooled it and lost tens of thousands of dollars a month). AF version #1 was doing fine when it got cancelled, AF v2 was selling over 30000 when it got cancelled.

Yet we get to see crip like Excalibur, which Marvel is losing money on (I read they lost a combined 30¢ an issue on Excalibur and X-Force in November when promotional costs for these two books were factored in to their huge sales drops), X-Force, and all those pointless Cosmic Capers (Thanos, Silver Surfer, Guardians, ....). Sure, some people say they like Captain Marvel but in general nobody cares for these Cosmic books and they die horrible deaths. Just like She-Hulk will once they get tired of promoting it and losing more money.

Count on it: Alpha Flight these days would sell over 40,000 per month with an artist like Henry, a writer like Furman, and a core of 4 Byrne characters with 2-3 of the rest, like Box, Zuzha, and Nemesis.

Happy New Year! Alpha Flight in 2005, make it so!! :D

[syvalois]

Selecting individual heroes per issue would echo real well with Byrne's run. Remember when he did one character at a time, with occasional full-team issues? I liked that, a unique answer to the team-book thing.

That was one of the things I didn't like about Byrne's stuff. Sure the occaisional solo adventure is great but I'd rather see the team act more as a team. Books like the FF and Avengers have run for so long in part, because the characters work together on regular basis.


I just loved the Byrne issue format, the occasionnal team story with a lot of solo adventure. I thought it was a metaphore to Canada that was fitting. A bunch of individuals that have not much in common, but sometimes when they come together, they can do great things. It's also very good to show the different aspect of Canada. And most of all, it gave a very distinct and uniqe feeling to the book that do not and cannot be mixed up with Avengers wannabe.

As the Wikipédia encyclopedia say :"Canadians see their country as a mosaic of unique immigrant cultures, a large picture made up of many distinct pieces, rather than a melting-pot."