"Ultimate" AF, better than no AF?

[cmdrkoenig67]

IMO....no. I want to read about Mac, Heather, Eugene, Narya, Michael, Elizabeth, Kara, Walter, Jean paul and Jeanne marie, etc....NOT their alternate reality versions. I want the real deal,....certainly not "Ultimate" grittier, darker, morally-bereft versions. What's wrong with wanting to read real (and hopefully well-produced) AF, Avengers, Spidey, etc...?

What do you guys think?

Dana

[Mokole]

Yes, I'd choose Ultimate AF over no AF, but it isn't going to happen. Every other title in Ultimate has close ties to current Marvel books, Ultimate AF in 2 months wouldn't.

[Barnacle13]

I try to be a completist (though no where near as complete as Ben), so I would certainly buy an Ultimate Alpha Flight. Hell I've been buying an Alpha Flight without any of the members in it for the past year. Why not one that bends and twists the personalities of the originals?

[mvranas]

Speaking of the Ultimate Universe, the Ultimate Captain Britain looks to be along similar lines to what Ed Northcott was thinking for an Ultimate Guardian a few years back.

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0412/23/ultimates4.jpg

I've read that Millar & Hitch will be introducing many new 'Ultimate' characters in Ultimates 2, so it may not be too much of a stretch to think we might see some Alpha members along the way (fingers crossed :wink: ).

-Mike

[Ben]

I'd buy it, as Barnacle13 said, for completist reasons, but it would be far from my first choice of what to do with AF. It could be fun to throw away some of the character abuse a-la-Mantlo though ;)

Ben

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'd buy it, as Barnacle13 said, for completist reasons, but it would be far from my first choice of what to do with AF. It could be fun to throw away some of the character abuse a-la-Mantlo though ;)

Ben

If they do go "Ultimate"....they'll just get new character abuse writing :twisted: .

Dana

[Le Messor]

The way Millar writes, I'm imagining Marrina as a crack ho', the Hudsons as a pair of pedophiles (or, worse, N'star, but we've seen him in Ultimate), Puck like he looked in that one panel of Mojo's 'XXX-Men', Sas'd look the same, but he'd shave that long bit of fur down the front of his crotch, so it'd be full-frontal...


I think I need a shower.

- Le Messor
"Carelessly planned projects take three times longer to complete than expected; carefully planned projects only twice as long."

[Mokole]

Under Millar I figure Aurora the sex kitten, Hudsons anti-mutant but tolerant for tolerance sakes, Puck a secret agent, rest basically unchanged.

[Le Messor]

Unchanged? How much Millar have you read?
They'd -all- become total sleaze-buckets, barely distinguishable from villains. That's what he -does-!

Wow, what a short rant.

- Le Messor
"CChheecckk yyoouurr dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh.."

[cmdrkoenig67]

How I think "Ultimate" AF could be possibly be portrayed(I posted most of these over at the joke quesada board)...

Aurora is a former porn star (or even prostitute on the extreme end) with MPD

Mac, an amoral scientist with no regard for his human experiments

Heather, a cokeheaded secretary from a big trailerpark family

Michael is an alcoholic(I know it's a very bad stereotype, but how many "Ultimate" characters AREN'T big ol' stereotypes? Think about it.), who was also an abusive father.

Walter, a 98 lb weakling, science nerd who wants to be strong

Snowbird is an ice queen with a secret(She's a MAN, baby! Kidding...just kidding!)

Puck is really overly muscled, trying to compensate for his height.


Yeah..."Ultimatization" is a great idea(insert extreme sarcasm and an eyeroll). :wink:

Dana :?

[Canucklehead]

How I think "Ultimate" AF could be possibly be portrayed(I posted most of these over at the joke quesada board)...

Aurora is a former porn star

You know Millar would easily be able to fit "The Master" in with her choice of movie roles. :P

Dave

[cmdrkoenig67]

Gah! ROFLMAO!

Dana

[kozzi24]

I suppose the Ultimate line has been good for getting some new readers into comics.
But I'm not a new reader, and personally loved the history there was to learn about. The Ultimate titles I sampled have not held my interest beyond the thrill of seeing a train wreck as it happens.
I'm in the better no Alpha than bad Alpha camp.
There's enough foul cried of stereotypes and misused Canadian details in regiular Alpha history, and you make a great sarcastic case, Dana, for how much worse that would be as an Ultimate title.

[Northcott]

IMO....no. I want to read about Mac, Heather, Eugene, Narya, Michael, Elizabeth, Kara, Walter, Jean paul and Jeanne marie, etc....NOT their alternate reality versions. I want the real deal,....certainly not "Ultimate" grittier, darker, morally-bereft versions. What's wrong with wanting to read real (and hopefully well-produced) AF, Avengers, Spidey, etc...?

What do you guys think?

Dana

I think that the problem with that is that there are no real Avengers, FF, Spidey, etc. They're all make-believe to begin with, and so deriding one make-believe world over another, without consideration for individual quality of story, makes about as much sense to me as claiming that Malory's Arthurian tales are somehow more "real" than those of T.H. White. Both are fabrications; it's just a matter of taste.

As for whether or not I'd be interested in an Ultimate AF -- depends entirely on who's doing it. :) Damn, yes, I'd love to be the one, but that's not going to happen. Short of that, I'd like to see somebody on it who can actually write the characters without the need to tarnish everything for the sake of seeming "grittier". Someone who knows the nation, the culture, and the characters -- along with how those characters fit into our culture. Hudson, MacDonald, Smallwood... the names were drawn from our history.

Toronto, roughly the size of Chicago, had 60 murders last year. Chicago had, iirc, around 600. We own more guns per capita, but have less gun violence. CSIS has it's scandals, to be sure, but they're nowhere near the scandal levels that have been drudged up by the CIA. This isn't a knock on the USA, I'm simply highlighting a difference. World-dominating conspiracies aren't a part of our national identity. Our government is lucky to go a day without mockery, nevermind masterminding a conspiracy. We value public health care, cooperation, looking out for our neighbour, etc.

I rather fancied the idea of an Ultimate AF being more heroic, more stable, than their standard MU counterparts ended up being. Back in the 80's, when comic-book superheroes were still very run-of-the-mill, AF were bringing dysfunction to super-teams. It would be amusing to see that trend reversed: Ultimate X-Men are a mess, the Ultimates are a group of morally ambiguous characters with a military backing -- how refreshing would it be to see Alpha as straight-up super-heroes, and succeeding as such, in this setting?

We've already seen Mac as an amoral mad scientist. That's the regular MU. We've seen Aurora played up as a wretched, amoral specimen of humanity -- that, too, is the AU (Weapon X). Shaman perpetually failing. These are the characters in the MU.

Conversely, as other heroes have been relative successes in the MU, but gone dysfunctional in the UMU, it seems to me that Alpha stands the best chance in the Ultimate line. A re-launch in a new continuity to make them the team they've always deserved to be.

On the note of native alcoholism: the reserve I lived on had an alcohol abuse rate of (iirc) around 80% in the population. FAS was rampant among the children. It's not that different in many other reserves across the nation. It's not a stereotype, it's a serious social problem... along with many, many other issues.


All that said: I've drawn and inked several pages, and found a colourer who does amazing things. :) He's just finished the second page. This guy's stuff blows me away. So although the fan-fic comic may be delayed by two years, the bloody thing will at least get a start in the near future... though we're chugging at a pace of about two pages a month when squeezed in outside of paying projects. Plus I've got a couple possible contracts floating around (keeping my fingers crossed) that might nix the project overall. Can't spend hours drawing a fan-fic comic if I'm tackling the real thing (though a different title). :)

Edit: Additon; yes, I would be very leary of Millar tackling an Ultimate AF. Let's face it; the above predictions probably aren't too far off the truth.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I think that the problem with that is that there are no real Avengers, FF, Spidey, etc. They're all make-believe to begin with,


Omigosh, Ed....I'm glad you told me that...I didn't know they weren't real.

Dana

[Northcott]

Thumbs up, soldier! Always looking to help out. :)

I just don't see the point of discrimnating arbitrarily based on fantasy worlds. The quality of the individual product matters more to me.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Condescending responses do little to change my opinion or how I feel about the Ultimate line of comics. In my opinion(still), they have been so far, very destructive to the characters they portray. Heroes should remain heroes.

Dana

[Le Messor]

Yeah, and now I'm imagining the DreamQueen as an ordinary hooker - or maybe, a porn queen. But I think Dana's summary fits the Ultimate line the best. Except something we've all forgotten. Somebody, but I don't know who, is going to have to change race at random. Will Mac be black? Will Heather be Asian?

No, these people aren't real. But that doesn't mean they'll suddenly change personality for no reason - not even Aurora. Even in a world of superheroes, that defies 'belief'.
And it doesn't mean that when I read a comic called Alpha Flight, I want to read about different people - even if they -look- like the ones I know. And the Ultimate versions will be different people.

- Le Messor
"Cheap things are of no value, valuable things are not cheap."

[Northcott]

Condescending responses do little to change my opinion or how I feel about the Ultimate line of comics.

It's not condescension -- it's direct confusion. I really can't see why anybody would get upset over versions of make-believe characters if essential elements are preserved. Nor does labelling one fictional character as the "real" version make any kind of sense to me.


In my opinion(still), they have been so far, very destructive to the characters they portray. Heroes should remain heroes.

I haven't kept up with most of them, but at the point I stopped paying attention Spider-Man was every bit as heroic as his mainstream version. Several of the X-Men, with seriously flawed pasts erased, are now more heroic than their predecessors. Even in the Ultimates, the poster-child for bastardization of characters, Tony Stark has proven to be just as (if not more) heroic than his mainstream counterpart.

It's certainly true that it's been destructive to some characters, but to others it's been a boon. The generalization simply doesn't hold true when examined.

[cmdrkoenig67]

It's not condescension -- it's direct confusion. I really can't see why anybody would get upset over versions of make-believe characters if essential elements are preserved. Nor does labelling one fictional character as the "real" version make any kind of sense to me.

perhaps original is a better word.


In my opinion(still), they have been so far, very destructive to the characters they portray. Heroes should remain heroes.

I haven't kept up with most of them, but at the point I stopped paying attention Spider-Man was every bit as heroic as his mainstream version. Several of the X-Men, with seriously flawed pasts erased, are now more heroic than their predecessors. Even in the Ultimates, the poster-child for bastardization of characters, Tony Stark has proven to be just as (if not more) heroic than his mainstream counterpart.

It's certainly true that it's been destructive to some characters, but to others it's been a boon. The generalization simply doesn't hold true when examined.

Okay, Ed....have it your way.

Dana

[Ben]

Gentlemen, lets keep in mind that this is a place we can all express our opinions, and respect those of others. You have differing opinions, which makes life interesting, but lets not let these differences become a negative thing.

Ben

[cmdrkoenig67]

Sure thing, Ben.

Dana