Sasquatch's strength.

[Nogoodnamesleft]

This is my first post, by the way.

But anyways, IMO, Sasquatch should not be only class 90 like the Thing (although IIRC in one issue he already beat the Thing and Thing admitted Lankowski was stronger than him). Why is because when Byrne created him, he wanted him to be this huge, powerful, mythical monster turned superhero image. He wanted Sasquatch to be the strongest guy on Earth. Yes, stronger than the mighty Thor. And even stronger than the HULK. So in my opinion, he should be restored to his former status as Uberpowerful (with a capital "U"). He should even do a few feats like lift a planet or whatever (yes, I know that's impossible due to the laws of physics even if a being IS strong enough to lift it, but that's not the point, and this is comic books; it doesn't have to be believable. I mean, Superman can lift a mountain without it falling apart, and can move at light speed in a planetary atmosphere without accidentally destroying all life on Earth, and nobody questions any of that...but when a Marvel hero does those things...) just to show how damned powerful he is. What do you folks think?

[DelBubs]

Hiya NGNL (abbreviated due to laziness :-) ) and welcome to the forum.

Sas's strength levels have been a topic of discussion for many years. When he first appeared he lifted and threw a DC-10 :?: against it's thrust. This would put him way beyond the class 70 which is often quoted. When he first fought the Thing, he had greater strength levels than Grimm, but Grimms strength has grown over the years. When Grimm first mutated he was classed as able to lift press 15 ton. This has grown to class 85 over the years. This is why Sas was able to bring down Super Skrull who had been adapted to counter the FF's powers as they where at the beginning of their career.

In regards to Sas, given that his form is that of a Mythical beast and from what we have seen before, Sas should at least be in the top ten strongest beings in the MU, but IMHO, because he doesn't appear regulary in one of the MU's fave teams, he's been downplayed by various writers to become nothing more than a whipping boy for the company's favourites.

All that said however, I'm with you, Sas should be returned to full strength and be able to take his place amongst the titans of the MU.

Once again, welcome and good to see ya posting.

[kozzi24]

He should be in the top five in strength, but not stronger than the Hulk.
It's never been stated, but is possible that Sasquatch lost strength when he no longer shared the body with Tanaraq.

[DelBubs]

He should be in the top five in strength, but not stronger than the Hulk.
It's never been stated, but is possible that Sasquatch lost strength when he no longer shared the body with Tanaraq.
A nice idea, but they had downplayed Sas's strentgh levels long before Tanaraq and he parted company. I think it was in a MTIO annual when the 'Champion' came down to take on Earths strongests, that The Thing was described as being stronger, but I can't be sure as I don't have the thing.

[Legerd]

Welcome aboard NGNL! A while back I figured out roughly how much Sas should be able to lift, and though I can't remember what the number is now, it was somewhere in the hundreds of tons.

[DelBubs]

Could I also point you towards http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=220&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15.

[Le Messor]

In M2i1 ann #7, Sas did really well. <Spoilers>







Thor and Hulk got disqualified early, but Sas pounded on the Champion until he got caught by a left hook. It was Thing's determination that made him the winner, not his physical strength.

- Le Messor
"Don't you remember when you were a champion boxer?"
"... no..."
- The Simpsons

[Northcott]

To be fair, Marvel's done this with almost all their major strongmen at some point or another. Thor and Hulk have both undergone downsizing to make them fit the clean-number paradigm that was inflicted on the Marvel U (which tied in nicely with their RPG license -- probably not entirely a coincidence). Thor and Hulk have both been seen to do obscene things like partially lift buildings, toppling them, or smacking one another with tanks, jets, etc. While some of these objects may weigh considerably less than 100 tons, they're throwing them around like paperweights -- not a weight that's half their maximum lift.

Nevermind what the "normal" people are capable of. These are supposed to be the weights that the characters can lift overhead -- and yet when you look at characters like Daredevil and Captain America they list them as being able to press 400 and 800 lbs overhead, respectively. Compare these to world-record numbers and have a good laugh. (Hint: According to them Daredevil is stronger than 300 lb steroid-ridden human gorillas, yet neither possesses a power of strength, nor the build for such lifts)

It's all about establishing a character with a good story: if AF could get back as a decent-selling issue, with a creative team that loves and respects the originals, and they chose to write Sas as being on par with Thor and the Hulk (the MU's two kings of might), then he would be that power. That simple. Until then he'll always be trumped by writers trying to make a point.

[kozzi24]

One thing I miss in modern comics is the sense of wonder. Remember the old Dikto Spread of Spider-Man, desperately trying to lift something overhead...I have no toion to what issue that was, but an entire page was devoted to that struggle.
The Hulk lifting the mountain in Secret Wars, keeping it from crushing the others.
Sasquatch stopping the DC-10...nowadays, current writers would put that as one panel, not a struggle, and that might even be in the background while other characters are talking about which villain they'd most like to sleep with.
Even AF #1, the unstoppable Tundra. We got to see what these characters could do, and all their power seemed for naught.
These days, we don't get many examples of just how fast the twins can move funtionally...remember Aurora's quick change for Walter during Byrne's run.
Back in AD V1, Nemesis used her sword to carve foorknobs out of a door to gain access...now she's just stabbing people outright to send them back in time.
The fights of strong vs strong should always really demonstrate how inhumanly strong characters are, that they are tossing tanks and buildings, and the other is withstanding being hit by it.
The FF/Hulk crossover by Engleheart and Peter David was fabulous for that reason...with the changes in both characters, the Thing finally beat the Hulk...then the Hulk outsmarted Thing!
Best "recent" memorable (to me) bit was the Hulk/Thor annual a few years ago.

[Northcott]

Yes!!

The industry has shifted so far toward self-indulgence that they've forgotten what made comics exciting in the first place. They play lip service to Kirby while deriding his bombastic style.

Nobody can ever match Kirby's energy without having their stuff look like crap -- it was a part of his style, and so distinctive that a knock-off would look silly. But old-school artists like Buscema, Kane, Perez, and even Byrne in his early years got it. They understood that the struggle required multiple panels to effectively show the movement and bring the larger than life aspects to fruition.

[rplass]

One of the aspects of the Sasquatch character that I always liked was that, well, HE WAS* BIG!!! It made his strength more believable (not as if believability is a requirement for comic fans, but it helps...) that he simply had very large muscles. He's a really big guy. Really big. Very big. BIG! I never understood how a scrawny little punk like Peter Parker could lift so much.. you need to have big muscles to lift a lot. Math tells us that a cross-sectional area of muscle twice as big as another can exert 4 times as much force, pi r squared and all, etc.

So he's big, tall, towering over most all other superheroes - are there any other superheroes that are taller than Sasquatch? He's got broad large muscles... sort of like the way Mr. Hyde was depicted in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie... very large muscles, extremely strong. I don't know the # of tons Sasquatch can lift, but certainly the way he is drawn, you'd believe he is among the strongest particularly because he is the biggest.

Love,
rplass
*- I use the past tense because of the unfortunate events as depicted in the recent Sabretooth LS

[Ben]

*- I use the past tense because of the unfortunate events as depicted in the recent Sabretooth LS

He did not die in that issue. Not having it on hand, so I can't quote it exactly, but Sabs set that Sas might die if he didn't get help soon...and then a boat arrived.

Ben

[Le Messor]

There's no indication anywhere that anger makes Sas stronger. Granted, he held back for a while for fear of losing control to anger, but that's not the same thing.
And I'm not sure Great Beast possession would do it either - he -is- a Great Beast, technically.

The average baby chimp, I'm told, is stronger than the average adult human - though much smaller. It's -just- not the size of the muscles, it's how you use them. Or at least, the efficiency, etc...

Not that I'm disagreeing with your conclusions; Sas is still one of the strongest Earth-bound heroes. Just the logic to get there.
Especially since he seems closer to apes than humans - ie: better muscles. Imagine if he had the proportional strength of a baby ape...

- Le Messor
"For our next trick we're actually going to levitate a balding eagle!"
- Walter, -Striperella-

[Northcott]

The average baby chimp, I'm told, is stronger than the average adult human - though much smaller. It's -just- not the size of the muscles, it's how you use them. Or at least, the efficiency, etc...

Damn me for a geek...

Several primates, apes (chimps, gorillas, orangutangs, iirc) among them, have vastly improved tensile strength in muscle fibres when compared to humans. Getting an estimate on how much more efficient is difficult, since defining a baseline "average" is near impossible, but estimates range from 6x to 12x. So while a baby chimp may not be stronger than an adult human, that 100 lb adult chimp is probably at least twice as strong as a very accomplished adult male weightlifter.

A full-grown silverback (male gorilla) can rip your arms off and beat you with the wet ends without working up a sweat.

[Ben]

Damn me for a geek...

Several primates, apes (chimps, gorillas, orangutangs, iirc) among them, have vastly improved tensile strength in muscle fibres when compared to humans. Getting an estimate on how much more efficient is difficult, since defining a baseline "average" is near impossible, but estimates range from 6x to 12x. So while a baby chimp may not be stronger than an adult human, that 100 lb adult chimp is probably at least twice as strong as a very accomplished adult male weightlifter.

A full-grown silverback (male gorilla) can rip your arms off and beat you with the wet ends without working up a sweat.

That being said, Sasquatch should get some extra strenghth points for being rather apelike ;)

Ben

[kozzi24]

That being said, Sasquatch should get some extra strenghth points for being rather apelike

Ben
_________________
And so could...
wait a minute, I WILL NOT go there.... [-X

[HappyCanuck]

As for anger being a factor, we can't completely count that out either. Anger produces an adrenaline rush. Little blue-haired old ladies have been known to lift the engine-end of buicks under extreme stress (ie: anger). Sure, they pay for that later one, but it STILL can be done. Now translate that unto Sasquatch who's EASILY 100x stronger (more'n likely more), and the intensity of his anger - not only would be be able to dead-press a tank, but in theory, he'd be able to redender it into scrap metal. Attach that onto the fact that it's been stated that Sasquatch heals faster than a normal person...

[Ben]

As for anger being a factor, we can't completely count that out either. Anger produces an adrenaline rush. Little blue-haired old ladies have been known to lift the engine-end of buicks under extreme stress (ie: anger). Sure, they pay for that later one, but it STILL can be done. Now translate that unto Sasquatch who's EASILY 100x stronger (more'n likely more), and the intensity of his anger - not only would be be able to dead-press a tank, but in theory, he'd be able to redender it into scrap metal. Attach that onto the fact that it's been stated that Sasquatch heals faster than a normal person...

This is a good point, but do mythical great beasts from an other dimension have adrenaline?

Ben

[HappyCanuck]

This is a good point, but do mythical great beasts from an other dimension have adrenaline?

Ben

Well, let's see, we know they (or this one at least) has blood and a heart, so it's safe to assume he has an adrenal gland. Not only that, but this is Walt's body transmutated by the combined might of gamma radiation and the Beast's 'magic' (for lack of a better word). Now, since, as a human, Walter had all these things - blood, a heart, and an adrenal gland - and we don't know what Tanaraq looked like in his original pure-beast form (we've only seen his spirit inhabit Walter and Narya in the accompanying form), it's a safe bet.

[Northcott]

You know I'm all for it. :) Putting him in the Hulk/Thor elite category strikes me as being just fine.

[Northcott]

I've been thinking about the nature of Sasquatch.

Walt's pretty bright, and knows his stuff. Chances are he didn't screw up entirely -- what if Sas really is a quasi-Hulk like being? Big, hairy, and orange, you say? Well, yes. Different energies were not only involved, but Walt's a blonde-haired former linebacker with a very different mentality than Bruce Banner. We've found out that the Hulk is partially a physical manifestation of Bruce's repressed emotional state -- it only makes sense that given the physical and emotional differences in the two men that the two forms would be different in appearance.

Then there's the great beast. He's gone, but Walt maintains the beast form through various machinations of continuity -- but what if he'd managed to achieve it on his own? What if Tanaraq didn't give Walt the beast form so much as "nudge" how it manifests to help his escape? Sensing the shift in energies from the other side of the barrier, unable to completely escape his confines, he threw in a little extra mystical "oomph" to taint the experiment and give him a loophole to use to his advantage later.

So perhaps we're not looking at an either/or situation here. Perhaps we're looking at a confluence of events that produce a hybrid result.

And someday I really, really wanna draw Sas facing off against the Hulk. :D Sort of talking down to him like the little guy that Walt knew in college.

Sas: "Calm down, Bruce. It's me... It's Walter. Walt Langkowski. Remember?"

Hulk: "RRRRRAaaaaaaaGGGGHHHH!"

Sas: "..." "...Last time I heard you make that sound was the morning after a frat party."

Hulk: "HULK SMASH!!!"

Sas: "Whoa there, little buddy!" (THWACK!)

[Ben]

In interesting way to break down Sas's relation to Tanaraq woul be to say that at any time, each great beast has a human that acts as a link between the realm of the beasts, and our reality. When Sas did his little experiment, the energy released opend an existing, yet locked door, allowing Walter to take advantage of his pre-exting relation to Tanaraq. After he took over the body of Narya, his own spirit was still tied to that of Tanaraq, and was still able to assume Tanaraq's form. That body being already used to tranformations was able to act as walters gamma-irradiated body did, allowing Wanda to take on an altered form of Tanaraq. When the spririt of Narya decended to return Walter's masculinity to him, his body (still technically that or narya) was still able to take on the Sasquatch form, as his spirit was still the ever present link.

Now, you could expand that theory to see that Richard Easton was the earth-link for Tundra. Ranaq was bound to Zebediah Chase, and when he was killed, to Lucas Stang. When Kolomaq was freed, it his link could have been one of the oil drillers,.

K, so that's my theory, back to reviewing AF#12.

Ben

[Le Messor]

How did Walt have a pre-existing link to Tanaraq, before the experiment?

And I got that he swapped bodies, it wasn't simple posession.

- Le Messor
"Entropy isn’t what it used to be."

[Northcott]

My take on it was posession/transformation -- otherwise Snowbird ripping out tall n' shaggy's heart wouldn't have left a gaping hole in poor ol' Walt's sternum. Walt's body acting as the gateway for Ratatat's earthly presence. Walt frequently mentioned in the earlier issues about the pain caused by the transformation as his body reshaped itself, and we had a viewing of it in varying stages in the first issue.

[SephirothsKiller]

we may boost their strength, but not back to the old days. Anyone have essential hulk? He causes a whole crapload of tanks to explode just by clapping. Ridiculus i say. Almost like i was reading a dc comic.

[Le Messor]

My take on it was posession/transformation -- Walt frequently mentioned in the earlier issues about the pain caused by the transformation as his body reshaped itself, and we had a viewing of it in varying stages in the first issue.

That's true; and in #9; but #23-24 gave a slightly different take. I got a complex swapping that looked like a transformation - which could explain the pain; he's beins swapped molecules at a time, which would hurt!

- Le Messor
"Consider your reputation. Try changing your name and moving to a new town."