Can Snowbird Really Die?

[DelBubs]

I purloined this from the 'Loose Ends' topic

Here's one that came to mind from one of the other threads...Heather never has been taken to task by ANYONE for her rather extreme solution to the Pestilence problem...she did KILL Snowbird
and it got me to thinking, can Snowbird really die. We've seen on a few occasions Snowbirds spirit wandering about. Once when she changed Walter and again when she did that dream visit routine on Talisman. Not being human per se and the fact that right at the beginning Shaman did that binding thing, body and soul joined as one, that it suggests to me that basically she is immortal and could be reborn over and over. All she needs is a host body to house her spirit, if that dies, a new host.

That would also negate the need for Heather to be bought to task for killing her, she didn't kill her as such, she destroyed the host which if controlled by Pestilence could have wreaked untold havoc. Greater good and all that.

[HappyCanuck]

killing the host would constitue killing her, despite having her spirit form wandering around the heavens. Now, as to PROVING it, that's the rub! Without a body, it's hard to prove that Snowbird's dead, since, for the longest time, the body itself was up and running - just with someone else at the helm. Basically, at that point, Narya's body was a Zombie.

Now, however, we've got two more questions (one slightly off topic):
1) when Heather killed Narya's body, she blew a fairly large hole through her. Now, we can surmise that, as a demigoddess, Narya could heal quite fast, but one would assume that since she was dead - hell, even her spirit was sent on, there was no one home - and we all know dead bodies don't heal. So does that mean that Pestilence was even more powerful than he let on, powerful enough to heal a host body?
2)When Narya first transformed into the Sasquatch form, she was wearing her ususal costume, complete with headdress. Why is it when Walter/Wanda transformed BACK into his/her humanoid form, s/he was wearing a red one-piece bathingsuit ala Baywatch?! not to meantion that Narya's hair was blonde, but Wanda's was white...

Curiouser and Curiouser...

[kozzi24]

Mantlo obviously was just looking for a way to bring back Sasquatch with Walter's soul, and had sacrificed Snowbird to do it, giving the character something of a happy ending.

Allan touched on one of the glaring flubs in the way he wrote it...and inhury that would have killed Snowbird in her Sasquatch form would NOT have healed, never mind enough to become functionally alive by the transplant of a new soul.

My thought wasn't Heather being taken to task in an official inquirey by the Canadian government for killing Snowbird, it was by her own teammates. With Aurora's instigation and Heather's leadership, they did it to Northstar in #25, but another fault in Mantlo's writing was making Heather unimpeachable. If you were Puck or Northstar or Aurora or Box and had seen your team leader fatallay strike down your teammate because she had been possessed by an enemy, how comfortable would you be fighting under that team leader? What if you were the next one possessed by an enemy? The question would have been on the characters' minds if for no other reason than Purple Girl had just been brought into Beta and had the clear power to control others. But not one of them questioned Heather's actions.

[Ben]

I honestly don't think Snowbird could be "killed". I view her like Jesus of the north ;). If there is need for her on earth, i.e. the great beastes retrun, she can be returned to earth from whatever great northern beyond she is sitting in. The only restriction is that any time she would return, the whole process of birth, and binding to the earth would have to be repeated, she would have to go throught the excelerated growing up time all over, and could not return all that quickly. I view her body bing cloned by aim as a nice shortcut for the northern gods to return her to earth. They saw what was being done, shot her soul into the new host body, and presto, instant Birdy.

Ben

[HappyCanuck]

I honestly don't think Snowbird could be "killed". I view her like Jesus of the north ;). If there is need for her on earth, i.e. the great beastes retrun, she can be returned to earth from whatever great northern beyond she is sitting in. The only restriction is that any time she would return, the whole process of birth, and binding to the earth would have to be repeated, she would have to go throught the excelerated growing up time all over, and could not return all that quickly. I view her body bing cloned by aim as a nice shortcut for the northern gods to return her to earth. They saw what was being done, shot her soul into the new host body, and presto, instant Birdy.

Ben

Ah, the E-Z Bake Insta-Goddess method! Always a classic! :D

I'm kinda miffed tho. I was kinda hoping to see SOME indidication that the Snowbird clone would be more in the series, and we might learn if THIS Narya has the soul of the old (and if so, what about Doug and Junior, and the fact she's not with then anymore), and if not, see a major fling-ding between the Birds (interesting story idea there, I must say)

[kozzi24]

I like the idea of the clone not being Narya's soul. Easier on new readers, carte blache with what can be done with the character.

[HappyCanuck]

Dammit, I gotta agree with Kozzi again... (just joking Jeff :D)

[Ben]

Dammit, I gotta agree with Kozzi again... (just joking Jeff :D)

I quite dissagree with this one. I don't see that having her a different character makes it any easier on newbies. They still have to know the history of te original to understand the background of the character, they have to deal with which birdie is which. It's yet an other duplicated character in the alpha universe. how many AF characters come with a number after thier name now? To me this adds more confusion than saying it's the same character's sould placed into a cloned body.

Ben

[HappyCanuck]

Ah but Ben, that's half the fun for a writer! to take the confusion and make it make SENCE!

[DelBubs]

I work on the principal that Snowbird (the godly spirit) is immortal. Her Kith and Kin is, when A.I.M created that body from her former hosts remains (probably a bit of skin left in the grave at Tamarind Island after Pestilence had stolen the body) there was no content to the shell. Nelvanna said 'we can't be having this, you best get down there and take over that body. She did this and that's why we have a new Snowbird.

Taking it one step further, it's the goddess Narya who is a transmorph,that's why Walter cannot use those powers in his present body. Or not as the case may be.

[PWalk]

Taking it one step further, it's the goddess Narya who is a transmorph,that's why Walter cannot use those powers in his present body. Or not as the case may be.

That's the way I've always understood it to be. The spirit of Narya has the powers of snowbird and thusly wo sould the host. When she is no longer present that powers than dissipate.

[Northcott]

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I believe that Inuit myth has their god-spirits as very powerful, but still capable of death... though death isn't always a permanent thing. It was through transformative death of sorts that Sedna became a Goddess.

Like the Asgardians, I figure that Snowbird and the other northern spirits can be killed. It's just that doing so should be exceedingly difficult.

[HappyCanuck]

It was through transformative death of sorts that Sedna became a Goddess.

You're partially correct, Ed: Sedna, like Narya and Hercules of myth, was a demigoddess born between a mortal woman and a God. When she was killed (can't remember the cause of her death), she was brought to the heavens (body and all) and made a full Goddess. this was mirrored in the myth of Hercules.


Like the Asgardians, I figure that Snowbird and the other northern spirits can be killed. It's just that doing so should be exceedingly difficult.

According to myth - again - the Gods can be killed, and has. but there's only been one recorded myth that I'm aware of where a God has died. I can't remember how to spell the name (too many consonants), but the God in question was attacked by Raven, and Raven killed him, using the blood of a fellow God (yes apparently Gods can bleed freely, just not die easily) to form a dagger of 'black ice' which he killed the God with. WHen the God's blood hit the tundra, the land turned harsh and desolate. This created the Tundra, the only hint of colour being tiny red flowers that are native to the area (can't remember the name of the flower off the top of my head)

[Northcott]

You're partially correct, Ed: Sedna, like Narya and Hercules of myth, was a demigoddess born between a mortal woman and a God. When she was killed (can't remember the cause of her death), she was brought to the heavens (body and all) and made a full Goddess. this was mirrored in the myth of Hercules.

In the version that I heard her father was mortal and she was a beautiful young maiden. Charmed by a mysterious stranger, she willingly went with him when her father gave her as a bride. It turned out that this stranger was one of the great spirits of the north -- an animal spirit, iirc, though I can't recall which one. (I'm definitely going to have to look this up again)

Refusing to be bride to an animal, Sedna desired escape. Her father helped her flee, but as they crossed the waters the angry spirit pursued. A storm was called, and the father feared for his life. To spare himself, he got rid of that which the spirit desired -- his daughter. Sedna was cast overboard into the arctic waters. She tried to cling to the boat, but her father struck her hands with the oar, breaking (or severing) her fingers.

She sunk to the black depths of the arctic sea (the otherworld?). Her fingers seperated from her body and became the animals of the sea; whales, seals, walrus, etc. There she took her place as a figure of death, and the Goddess of the waters and its animals.

I'll have to look this up again, see if I can find more variants of the tales. Sedna appeared briefly in Thor's post "heroes return" series, where she attempted to take the Thunder God for her own.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Issue#27 - Evil Guardian/Courtney-Bot has Narya by the throat and Shaman is getting Talisman from the Mystic Medicine Pouch when he stops and says,"Curse Him! In her human form Snowbird is as mortal as any of us. I must help her." Then throws a gob-a-goo at EG/C-Bot and Talisman is sucked into the void.

Don't know if that helps...

Johnny

[HappyCanuck]

Y'know, I'm assuming that what every one already suspected, but I have to admit being confused by why Talisman was so pissed at her father, enough to muck up Narya's birthing, asside from her anger over her mother's death. Now I know (and am kicking myself over it). he chose his pseudo-adoptive-demigoddess-daughter-with-the-better-healing-abilities over his flesh-and-blood-mostly-human-daughter-with-no-greater-recuperative-abilities- than-the-average-joe... I always though she was possy over ther fact that Shaman left her stranded in there while he went to help someone else in dire need. The fact that he couldn't get her out wasn't the issue at all. Make a lot of sence to me... Now, don't I feel stupid...

(NOTE: there is no sarcasm involved in this post. I mean all that I said)

[Northcott]

"Curse Him! In her human form Snowbird is as mortal as any of us. I must help her."

"If only she'd transform into a rare Arctic budgee, then environmental activists would swarm the techno-fiend for daring threaten an endangered species!"

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I honestly don't think Snowbird could be "killed". ...If there is need for her on earth, i.e. the great beasts return, she can be returned to earth from whatever great northern beyond she is sitting in. The only restriction is that any time she would return, the whole process of birth, and binding to the earth would have to be repeated, she would have to go throught the excelerated growing up time all over, and could not return all that quickly. I view her body being cloned by aim as a nice shortcut for the northern gods to return her to earth. They saw what was being done, shot her soul into the new host body, and presto, instant Birdy.

Ben

I agree that Snowbird cannot truly be "killed," even after snubbing The Old Gods by staying on Earth and marrying Douglas Thompson. I just find it hard to believe that Snowbird could be brought low by technology, alone. A primary safeguard against THE GREAT BEASTS just shouldn't be so easily overcome.

The part I have a problem with is AIM cloning Snowbird's body. In my mind, only a doctor/sorceror combination can pull off a SNOWBIRD resurrection. Which means DR. STRANGE most definitely could do it, Dr. Michael Twoyoungmen can do it, but not too many other folks could do it. There would be Snowbirds up the wazoo if it were that easy (and I don't think THE OLD GODS would want that).

This is why I'm not a big fan of "continuity." We all have to go through so many impossible contortions to try and make sense of this stuff.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Ah...but in those issues where Snowbird was resurrected, it was stated that AIM used magic and technology to create her clone body.

Dana

[HappyCanuck]

AIM has close connections to Hydra and the Hand, all whom marry magic and science almost flawlessly to get their goals met. Honestly, I'm REALLY surprised that neither of these groups haven't been more successful.

[kozzi24]

Possible solution in some of the major reality shakes in the Marvel Universe in recent years, including heroes reborn and the Scarlet Witch's surges of power since Heroes return?

I'm more disconcerted by her resurrection because there was no true impact on Walter, who didn't even acknowledge having her body when studying the new version.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Ah...but in those issues where Snowbird was resurrected, it was stated that AIM used magic and technology to create her clone body.

Dana

Okay. Hope AIM can only make one.

[birdygirl]

Snowbird's resurrection is actually one of those things that should have made sense considering her history. She had an advanced healing factor, and it was only a matter of time before she could revive. What really screwed everthing up was the continuity factor with Walter (still) using her body. :roll: If it hadn't been for that, the story would have worked. As it is, it might have made more sense to say that Snowbird was cloned, instead of in her original body.

[Barnacle13]

Snowbird's resurrection is actually one of those things that should have made sense considering her history. She had an advanced healing factor, and it was only a matter of time before she could revive. What really screwed everthing up was the continuity factor with Walter (still) using her body. :roll: If it hadn't been for that, the story would have worked. As it is, it might have made more sense to say that Snowbird was cloned, instead of in her original body.

Or how about Sas's soul being shunted into the clone body as Birdy took her own back. That would keep the continuity of Sas and his apparent fascination with sex changes. I think we can all agree that would have been a much better solution :shock:

[birdygirl]

I agree. Too bad this kind of explanation was never used in the story. :)

[DarkSnowbird]

Ah the confusing saga of Walter and Snowbird