Your AF "What If??"

[PWalk]

So you've been hired by Marvel to write an issue of the series "What If?"
You decide to make it based on Alpha Flight and plan on blowing the doors off the readers house with a story that will linger in their minds forever. What is your story?

[Mokole]

There are SO many that would stay in people's minds but to pick one:

What if Gamma Flight defeated and truly replaced Alpha Flight?

Think of the possibilities!

[varo]

the obvious one is "what if mac had never died"


i really liked the old what if wolverine lead alpha flight. that was a good issue.

[Northcott]

What if: Mac lived, but Heather had died in the explosion?

I thought of a list of others, but none seemed to have the impact of the above. Sas going berserk, Sas remaining Tanaraq, etc.

For alternate world horror/fantasy:
What if Marinna's children swarmed the earth? (Lovecraftian horror)

What if Snowbird had been defeated? (Epic fantasy as the remains of humanity fight against Tanaraq and his ilk)

What if Thor got sick of following around those candy-ass Avengers and decided to hang with a real team in a climate more like his homeland?

[maniac mike]

How about "What If... Scott Lobdell DIDN'T write the All New, All Different Alpha Flight"?

MM #-o

[kozzi24]

Here's one inadvertantly suggested by Ed in the thread of "The Suit: Mac or Heather?""
What If Heather had activated ALL the Betas and Gammas against Thundra instead of just Puck and Marrina?

[Northcott]

Oooooh! DANG, Kozz, I'd never even thought of that one. :) That's got some interesting ramifications.

I now have visions of Smart Alec standing around, scowling, and making derogatory comments about everyone else to cover up how absolutely useless he feels.

And then Tundra steps on him.

[HappyCanuck]

Oooooh! DANG, Kozz, I'd never even thought of that one. :) That's got some interesting ramifications.

I now have visions of Smart Alec standing around, scowling, and making derogatory comments about everyone else to cover up how absolutely useless he feels.

And then Tundra steps on him.

'useless he FEELS"?! How about how useless he IS. What's he going to do, stand there and THINK at Tundra? Yeah, I can see why Byrne offed him as fast as he did - completely useless. Kinda like a battle between Galactus and Aunt May, really...

However, the REST of the concept, that's interesting!

[Northcott]

'useless he FEELS"?! How about how useless he IS. What's he going to do, stand there and THINK at Tundra? Yeah, I can see why Byrne offed him as fast as he did - completely useless. Kinda like a battle between Galactus and Aunt May, really...

He was only useless because he was lazy and weak of spirit. If he'd had any kind of guts or drive, I'm sure Mr. "I'm a supra-genius" could have built himself a funky suit, too. Instead he ended up looking like a colour-blind egghead at a Star Trek convention, right before he got his ass kicked by an antique fashion statement/belt ornament.

[PWalk]

How about

"What if Jade Dragon joined Alpha Flight?"

Imagine the poltico fun you could have.

[Mokole]

What if Mac never put on the suit?

What if Thorne did put on the suit?

What if St. Elmo didn't sacrifice himself?

What if Omega Flight killed all of AF, not just Mac?

[kozzi24]

What if Heather had not killed Snowbird before Pestilence possessed the body of a demi-goddess in the form of the Great Beast?

[Legerd]

What if Walter had melded with one of the other Great Beasts rather than Tanaraq?

[HappyCanuck]

What If Mac Chose Omega Flight To Be Alpha Flight? (Premise: What if, instead of the Shaman, Northstar, Aurora, Sasquatch and Snowbird - and by proxy Puck and Marrina -, Mac chose Diamond Lil, Box, Flashback, Box (Bochs), Wildchild and Smart Alec to be Alpha Flight)

[maniac mike]

This isn't totally AF related (except for Mac & Heather) but I was thinking of "What If...Weapon X became Wendigo".

The story takes place right after Logan escapes the Weapon X compound, in his bezerker rage he ends up killing and eating some helpless guy and becomes cursed.

So insteaded of Mac & Heather running into logan they run into a Wendigo with Adamantium claws. :shock:

MM

[kozzi24]

What if Puck became Sorcerer Supreme?

[PWalk]

"What if Alpha Flight were annexed by the Avengers?"

Alpha Flight quickly changes it's name to North Pole Avengers, drawn by John Byrne.

[HappyCanuck]

What if Alpha Flight vol.1 hadn't been cancelled?

[Barnacle13]

Waht if? Puck spoke Shakespearean English!

[maniac mike]

What If?...Captain America & Guardian switched teams?
Steve would be CAPTAIN CANADA and Mac would be GUARDSMAN.

MM :wink:

[HappyCanuck]

What if ... Wolverine KILLED Alpha Flight?
(Circa UXM 120)

[Legerd]

What if, instead of Reed Richards and the rest of the FF, it had been Mac, Heather, Walter and Puck who flew into space and were bombarded with cosmic rays? What powers might they have had?

[Mokole]

What if Sinister worked in Canada? A more lame one. :wink:

[Garry/Al-Fan]

What if ... Wolverine KILLED Alpha Flight?
(Circa UXM 120)
Um, ALPHA FLIGHT is supposed to be CANADA's premiere super-group/defenders, plus the original characters are good (and popular), some of the new(er) characters added are good (and popular), and even ALPHA FLIGHT's initial conception (to survive a run-in with UXM) was good, solid, and well-executed, so I don't know what prompted this idea or where you plan on taking it.

But if you just have to bump off somebody, please, please, please have Wolverine kill off MANIKIN/Whitman Knapp, first. [-o< Then have Logan come to his senses before anymore senseless killing takes place! \:D/

Why would Wolverine want to kill off ALPHA FLIGHT in the first place?

P.S. ALPHA FLIGHT volume 1 should have been put out of its misery long before it got into, let's say, the 30s.

[HappyCanuck]

Um, ALPHA FLIGHT is supposed to be CANADA's premiere super-group/defenders, plus the original characters are good (and popular), some of the new(er) characters added are good (and popular)

I KNOW that, Garry. Preaching to the choir here. However, this IS a 'What If' scenario, so listen up...


and even ALPHA FLIGHT's initial conception (to survive a run-in with UXM) was good, solid, and well-executed, so I don't know what prompted this idea or where you plan on taking it.

The fact it was well-executed is, as well, moot. What if they had slipped up, Logan went berserk, killing them all? Now, ALpha FLight is a very successfull team, with it's own gallery of rogues. But what if there WAS no AF to battle the Great Beasts, Llan the Sorceror, or the DreamQueen? Who would step up to prevent Canada from being wiped off the map?


But if you just have to bump off somebody, please, please, please have Wolverine kill off MANIKIN/Whitman Knapp, first. [-o< Then have Logan come to his senses before anymore senseless killing takes place! \:D/

Why the hell does everyone hate Whit that much? Far as I'm conserned, he's one of the more interesting lesser characters from volume 1.


Why would Wolverine want to kill off ALPHA FLIGHT in the first place?

Garry, I think you are missing the point of this thread: it's 'WHAT IF' - a play on what had happened cannonically, using the laws of probability. In every circumstance, there are at least two possibilities: success or failure, life or death. THAT is what this is supposed to signify.

As for the 'why', I ask, 'why not'? Logan's killed before, what's to stop him for going berserk this time?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

[The fact it was well-executed is, as well, moot. [Is it? If it hadn't been well-executed in the beginning, you wouldn't have an ALPHA FLIGHT to "What If?" about - GRJ] What if they had slipped up, Logan went berserk, killing them all? Now, Alpha FLight is a very successfull team, with it's own gallery of rogues. But what if there WAS no AF to battle the Great Beasts, Llan the Sorceror, or the DreamQueen? Who would step up to prevent Canada from being wiped off the map? [WITHOUT ALPHA FLIGHT TO STOP/THWART THE GREAT BEASTS (whom I'm familiar with), LLAN THE SORCEROR, OR THE DREAM-QUEEN, MY GUESS IS THAT CANADA (and probably the rest of the world) WOULD BE MONKEY-STOMPED. GRJ]

Why the hell does everyone hate Whit that much? [What has Whit ever done? And I hate SCRAMBLE even worse. GRJ] Far as I'm conserned, he's one of the more interesting lesser characters from volume 1. [I can respect that. I think he's a badly-conceived, badly-executed, useless character; he can't do what Shaman did, can he, so really what good is he? GRJ]


Why would Wolverine want to kill off ALPHA FLIGHT in the first place?

Garry, I think you are missing the point of this thread: it's 'WHAT IF' - a play on what had happened cannonically, using the laws of probability. In every circumstance, there are at least two possibilities: success or failure, life or death. THAT is what this is supposed to signify. [Probably did miss the point. The statement above doesn't help clarify things any better for me, either. What if ALPHA FLIGHT were published with some respect and consistency? That should be within the laws of probability, too. GRJ]

As for the 'why', I ask, 'why not'? Logan's killed before, what's to stop him for going berserk this time?[/quote] Well, this was a really bad sticking point for me, way back when Byrne started his run on UXM, so if folks are cool with the habitual killings, the casual murders, the senseless violence and want to inject significant meaning into all of this, be my guest. Has comic readership gone up or down since this has become the vogue? GRJ

[HappyCanuck]

why the hell am I trying to defend myself here? I have no need to. it's a 'what if' scenario. It has nothing to do with retconning the damn characters, just seeing a different play of events, ala the ORIGINAL 'What If..?' series, where good concepts where twisted. If you don't like, good for you and tough tiddly-winks. I'm not going to be beaten down because you don't like one of my suggestions. It was a suggested interesting plot twist.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

why the hell am I trying to defend myself here? I have no need to. it's a 'what if' scenario.... just seeing a different play of events...I'm not going to be beaten down because you don't like one of my suggestions. It was a suggested interesting plot twist.

Believe it or not, I don't intend to beat anyone down. I'd just like to know the rationale behind this scenario because I've never much liked the concept of "What If?," I do like ALPHA FLIGHT, I don't know what "retconning" means, and this exchange is not personally taken or personally given. GRJ

[HappyCanuck]

I'd just like to know the rationale behind this scenario

the rationale is to exposite an alternate history line, one where one thing went drastically different and see where that history leads. This specific scenario is to exposite a scenario of what would the world be like if Alpha Flight had never existed to do all the good they had done. Who would take up the mantel of taking on the Great Beasts in AF.1.1 and 1.24? Without Shaman, who would give Elizabeth the Talisman so that she could fulfil her destiny, and take on Llan? Who would stand up to the Master as he abducted Marrina (remember, in UXM 120, Marrina and Puck were still with Beta Flight, thus not on the mission)? THAT'S what I'm suggesting.


because I've never much liked the concept of "What If?,"

Then why are you paying attention to this thread?!


I do like ALPHA FLIGHT

We all do, that's why we are here. the fact that I suggested this scenario doesn't mean I don't like AF. I LOVE AF. But I also know that, if they never existed, the world would be a VERY different place...


I don't know what "retconning" means

It means altering the past (preferably to coinside with a) natural history and b) cannonical history within the series - tho many writers throw out the second one out the window at their whim) to introduce new, unrevealed information about a character. An example of this would be Manto's retcon of the Puck character in AF.1.32, where he showed that Puck is really a 6' tall geezer with a demon inside him that makes him short and younger. Before, no one even considered it, just thought he was a regular dwarf with acrobatic abilities.

[Scarlettspiderg]

What If Major Mapleleaf joined AF before V3?

[Legerd]

What if the original Major Maple Leaf had formed Alpha Flight?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I'd just like to know the rationale behind this scenario
the rationale is to exposite an alternate history line, one where one thing went drastically different and see where that history leads. This specific scenario is to exposite a scenario of what would the world be like if Alpha Flight had never existed to do all the good they had done. Who would take up the mantel of taking on the Great Beasts in AF.1.1 and 1.24? Without Shaman, who would give Elizabeth the Talisman so that she could fulfil her destiny, and take on Llan? Who would stand up to the Master as he abducted Marrina (remember, in UXM 120, Marrina and Puck were still with Beta Flight, thus not on the mission)? THAT'S what I'm suggesting.

Oh.
I'd be interested in checking that out, just like yesterday.


because I've never much liked the concept of "What If?,"

Then why are you paying attention to this thread?!

Because
I do like ALPHA FLIGHT

Just because I don't particularly like the concept of "What If?" doesn't mean I'm not interested in some premises. This one is intriquing, I just didn't understand the rationale behind it. The only way I know how to better understand something that I don't understand is to ask questions and/or pick it apart 'til it makes some sense (to me). If this makes me a bad guy, I guess I'm a bad guy. I would have inquired no matter who posted this particular premise because I find it interesting. If it were published, I would consider buying/reading it. Not so the gutting of Northstar and turning him into a zombie [a plot-twist that may be reversed/
negated even as the death-issue comes out; am I wrong to think that the short-lived shock-value-only killing is pointless?].

I also tagged/included my "What if?" premise. I still stand by it, now more than ever.


I don't know what "retconning" means

It means altering the past (preferably to coinside with a) natural history and b) cannonical history within the series - tho many writers throw out the second one out the window at their whim) to introduce new, unrevealed information about a character...

Thanks for explaining. Now, I have a better understanding.

I do have an interest in "retconning" ALPHA FLIGHT, though I don't hold out much hope that MARVEL will let me do it. My interest in ALPHA FLIGHT is not limited to retconning the original characters, however.

But more important than that, the first volume went 129 issues, the second went 20 issues, and the third went 12 issues. The sustainability of an ALPHA FLIGHT series continues to dwindle, and I'd like to know why. As dogmatic as it may seem, I'd like to know why---whether originals, replacements, volume two newcomers, or volume three new characters, why doesn't the popularity and support (and/or content of the stories) keep an AF series afloat?

I don't know the answer to that, but I'd like to.

Garry/Al-Fan

[Legerd]

But more important than that, the first volume went 129 issues, the second went 20 issues, and the third went 12 issues. The sustainability of an ALPHA FLIGHT series continues to dwindle, and I'd like to know why. As dogmatic as it may seem, I'd like to know why---whether originals, replacements, volume two newcomers, or volume three new characters, why doesn't the popularity and support (and/or content of the stories) keep an AF series afloat?

I don't know the answer to that, but I'd like to.

Garry/Al-Fan[/color]

I think the reason is: AF is constantly portrayed as "third-rate Avengers". Even the most minor villains are a match for them despite how powerful the team is. Rarely are they seen outside of their own book (hell, not even in their own book come to think of it) as being competent, and when they do get to take part in major crossovers they're only used as cannon fodder and never make any substantial contribution to the story. In short they get no respect by the writers and who wants to read about heroes who no one (not even Marvel) respects?

PS: There were 130 issues in V1.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I think the reason is: AF is constantly portrayed as "third-rate Avengers". Even the most minor villains are a match for them despite how powerful the team is. Rarely are they seen outside of their own book (hell, not even in their own book come to think of it) as being competent, and when they do get to take part in major crossovers they're only used as cannon fodder and never make any substantial contribution to the story. In short they get no respect by the writers and who wants to read about heroes who no one (not even Marvel) respects?

PS: There were 130 issues in V1.

Thanks for the correction. That tells how much I was paying attention to the first volume towards the end.

I agree with everything stated. Any time a lone character like the Auctioneer can give a group of superheroes a run for their money, something's wrong.

Could it also be that ALPHA FLIGHT's popularity is not quite as deep as it once was?

The next AF writer/artist/editor face long odds to make a successful run. Will working on a new ALPHA FLIGHT series be career-enhancing or career-diminishing for either an up-and-coming star or a seasoned professional? Who will take the risk of another AF cancellation, or will just having the assignment be enough? Again, I don't know, but hope for the best.

[Legerd]

Could it also be that ALPHA FLIGHT's popularity is not quite as deep as it once was?

I think a lot of casual readers have given up on AF over the years, but there is a hardcore... uh... core fan base, which would be us.


The next AF writer/artist/editor face long odds to make a successful run. Will working on a new ALPHA FLIGHT series be career-enhancing or career-diminishing for either an up-and-coming star or a seasoned professional? Who will take the risk of another AF cancellation, or will just having the assignment be enough? Again, I don't know, but hope for the best.

Any title has the chance to be good or bad, it all depends on the direction the creative team takes and just how creative that team is! ANADAF could have been really good, just look at the Justice League series its style was based on. At its height it had three titles going and even now a humourous JL series is being published.
It's the creative team that makes or breaks a comic, not the other way 'round. With that being said though, AF has (from the rumours I've heard) been considered something of a pariah at Marvel. So hopefully someone (like our own Ed, perhaps) who has the talent and vision will take up the creative duties on V4 and turn it into a kickass book!

[PWalk]

"What if Alpha Flight assasinated Charles Xavier?"

Think about it. Instead of being sent to retrieve Wolvie all the way back in X-Men #120-121 the team is actually sent to assasinate Xavier in response for recruiting Wolverine to his new squad of mutants. They succeed and AF goes on to become the X-Men's most hated enemy.

[Legerd]

"What if Alpha Flight assasinated Charles Xavier?"

Think about it. Instead of being sent to retrieve Wolvie all the way back in X-Men #120-121 the team is actually sent to assasinate Xavier in response for recruiting Wolverine to his new squad of mutants. They succeed and AF goes on to become the X-Men's most hated enemy.

Ooooh, good one! :shock:

[Scarlettspiderg]

What If...Alpha Flight Had Defeated Onslaught

Onslaught is still forming, he's just whupped Juggernaut and wants to test his abilities before tackling the X-Men/Avengers/Fantastic Four - so he heads north, where AF defeat him (with Box over-riding Sentinals, Shaman freeing Xavier and Sasquatch cracking the Onslaught armour)!

[DelBubs]

'What If Witchfire had usurped Belasco as ruler of Limbo'. Could lead to re-depictions of the 'Magik' limited and the whole Goblyn Queen saga.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

"What if Alpha Flight assasinated Charles Xavier?"

Think about it. Instead of being sent to retrieve Wolvie all the way back in X-Men #120-121 the team is actually sent to assasinate Xavier in response for recruiting Wolverine to his new squad of mutants. They succeed and AF goes on to become the X-Men's most hated enemy.

Ooooh, good one! :shock:

I like it, I'd buy it, I'd read it.

FULLer DISCLOSURE: I've become one of those casual readers, 'though I haven't given up on AF. Will support it where it makes sense to me, when I know about it , and if money will allow. As you can tell, I don't have every single issue or appearance of AF , and probably would in order to be realistically considered for a "retcon" of AF. Just using the Byrne/Mantlo issues wouldn't be right.

I hope the definitive [i]ALPHA FLIGHT will be published, though.

NOTE TO DOUG: I forgot that Weapon Alpha got to the United States via a S.H.I.E.L.D. transport way back in UXM # 109. ALPHA FLIGHT [i]does have ties to S.H.I.E.L.D. that go way back. My bad.

[Michael May]

The next AF writer/artist/editor face long odds to make a successful run. Will working on a new ALPHA FLIGHT series be career-enhancing or career-diminishing for either an up-and-coming star or a seasoned professional? Who will take the risk of another AF cancellation, or will just having the assignment be enough? Again, I don't know, but hope for the best.

All it would take is for someone like Brian Vaughan or Grant Morrison to say they were interested in the characters and wanted to do a series. Obviously that's not happening, but if a talented, superstar writer were on the book, great things could happen. It's not the characters or concept that are bad; it's the stories.

[HappyCanuck]

unfortunately, that's what happened last time, and look at what we got [le sigh]

[Michael May]

No offense intended to Scott Lobdell, but he's no Vaughan or Morrison.

[Barnacle13]

The characters chosen do matter. That has been proven by the last two rosters. With only one or two originals the title is doomed for failure. But more importantly I think the stories matter. No one will argue that when Alpha Flight was at it's hieght the stories were solid, characterization was solid, and art was solid. Now move forward to the end of V1, all of V2, and all of V3. Do you honestly remember the details of these stories and character like you remember early Alpha Flight? Not a chance. The stories aren't character driven anymore. They've been hijacked by writers who want to put their product on paper. New characters that few care about, ridiculous stories about wax dummies, or poor art (Duncan Roleau V2 before anyone jumps me on Clayton Henry's art). There have been good stories since Byrne. In fact that's why V1 made it to #130, but they were sporadic and only enough to sustain the book. There hasn't been a solid base for the last two incarnations. That has to be built first. Good writing can make a marginal character worth reading. Look at what Tieri did with Jefferies, Wildchild, and Aurora. They were core characters in his book that did have success. You don't see those names show up on most folks Alpha Flight rosters nowadays. So, they aren't the most popular Alphans, yet they have seen success and probably have their own new fans now. So pick the roster you want. I think it has to include a majority of originals on the core team to keep the old timers around this time. Throw in a couple newbies if needed, but make sure the stories are gripping. A 6 story arc about taking a carton of eggs into space doesn't exactly thrill the average reader. Follow that up with wax dummies and you're detinied for cancellation every time. Too bad to, because issues 9 and 10 seemed to be turning on the right course. Then the ending was just rushed. Better luck next time I guess.

[Michael May]

New characters that few care about...

I was overly hasty when I said it was only the stories that matter. I don't believe that at all. Characterization matters a great deal to me.

I suggest though that if people don't care about the characters, it's not so much because they're new, but because they're not written very well or engagingly.

For the record, I love the original team and am tired of their getting bumped out of their own book for newbies. I want to read a book about the original characters too. I just don't think that's the only formula for a successful Alpha Flight comic.

[Scarlettspiderg]

Hey I liked the wax dummies...in fact...

"What If...The Master had fullpowered wax versions of Marvels Heroes Doing His Bidding"

Imagine the wax characters from V3 7-8 but being controlled by someone like The Master!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

The characters chosen do matter.
That has been proven by the last two rosters. With only
one or two originals the title is doomed for failure.
But more importantly I think the stories matter.
No one will argue that when Alpha Flight was at it's
height the stories were solid, characterization was solid,
and art was solid. Now move forward to the end of V1,
all of V2, and all of V3. Do you honestly remember the details
of these stories and character like you remember early Alpha Flight?
Not a chance. The stories aren't character driven anymore.
They've been hijacked by writers who want to put their
product on paper. ...ridiculous stories about wax dummies,
or poor art... There have been good stories since Byrne....
but they were sporadic and only enough to sustain the book.
There hasn't been a solid base for the last two incarnations.
That has to be built first. Good writing can make a marginal
character worth reading. Look at what Tieri did with Jefferies,
Wildchild, and Aurora. They were core characters in his book
that did have success. [Somehow I'll have to track these down.
What series is this? clueless Al-Fan] You don't see those names
show up on most folks Alpha Flight rosters nowadays. So, they aren't
the most popular Alphans, yet they have seen success and probably
have their own new fans now. So pick the roster you want. I think
it has to include a majority of originals on the core team to
keep the old timers around this time. [true for this old-timer]
Throw in a couple newbies if needed, but make sure the stories are gripping. [yes, please]
A 6 story arc about taking a carton of eggs into space doesn't exactly
thrill the average reader. Follow that up with wax dummies and you're
destined for cancellation [I agree. Even though I liked the Plodex plot,
it was a bit too long] every time. Too bad to, because issues 9 and 10
seemed to be turning on the right course....

I wish I had written that.

RETCON ALERT II: Scott Lobdell should be thanked for saving
FLASHBACK, since his death was a bit forced to begin with, IMO.
If Delphine Courtney could be re-configured from a woman to a man,
then somebody should be able to put her/him/it back together again
(THE MASTER, for one, comes to my mind).

[Legerd]

RETCON ALERT II: Scott Lobdell should be thanked for saving
FLASHBACK, since his death was a bit forced to begin with, IMO.

Personally, Flashback's death in V1 was the most original, creative and creepy one I've ever seen. Edgar Allan Poe could not have come up with a worse fate, than knowing at some point in your future you will be summoned into the past to die. No wonder Flashy went bonkers. A little while after that, we learn he has disappeared from his prison cell, never to be seen again (until V3 :x ). That was supposed to be the future self that died, which would have been a nice wrap up for the character. Now, however, we're left to wonder how he got out of jail, who helped him, why, and what has he been up to all this time? Wow, retconned loose ends! ](*,) SL should have left it alone; FB's fate in V1 was a nice bit of writing.


If Delphine Courtney could be re-configured from a woman to a man,
then somebody should be able to put her/him/it back together again
(THE MASTER, for one, comes to my mind).

Delphine was a robot and therefore it was no big deal to alter its appearance. However, if there was anyone who could bring FB back from the dead, it would be the Master... of course someone would need to bring him back from the dead first. :(

PS: It was the Weapon X series with Aurora, Jefferies and Wild Child.

[Barnacle13]

New characters that few care about...

I was overly hasty when I said it was only the stories that matter. I don't believe that at all. Characterization matters a great deal to me.

I suggest though that if people don't care about the characters, it's not so much because they're new, but because they're not written very well or engagingly.

For the record, I love the original team and am tired of their getting bumped out of their own book for newbies. I want to read a book about the original characters too. I just don't think that's the only formula for a successful Alpha Flight comic.

I agree a book with just the originals is doomed for failure as well. It would become stagnant and folks would drop it. You have to bring new characters into the fold to be successful. Still starting with 5 out of 7 unrecognizeable characters though doesn't start you on a good foot. If you can develop them quickly you might be able to pull it off, but it was issue 10 before we got to even see some of the powers the characters possessed this go around. I'm not likely to buy a book about a bartender in a thong for long. I'll stand by my statement that any reboot of Alpha Flight should consist of 4 or 5 original Alphans (including Sasquatch and Puck). Throw in a couple of the newer characters and allow them to develop slowly around the already established characters. Slowly they'll build a following, just like Talisman did. But had they dropped Shaman on say issue 20 and in issue 21 Talisman shows up and say "I'm the new mystic" everyone would have hated her. I think Marvel is to blame for this. They aren't willing to let a character develop any longer. They want them to be a flash in the pan success, so they can benefit now. They don't seem too focused on the future. Even in their X- and Spider titles you see this with retconning and alternate universes and whatnot. I'm sure that your dad's or grandpa's or older brother's Spiderman is just as captivating if not moreso than what's being pushed today. He has a history, supporting cast, etc. which is all very interesting and intertwined. There's something to be said for looking intothe past as well as for looking to the future.

[Michael May]

I agree a book with just the originals is doomed for failure as well.

That's not exactly what I'm saying though. I don't think the book succeeds or fails on the specific characters featured in it. Success depends on how well those characters are written, regardless of which ones they are. There's no formula or ratio of old:new characters that's going to guarantee a successful book; it all comes back to the quality of the writing and art.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

RETCON ALERT II: Scott Lobdell should be thanked for saving
FLASHBACK, since his death was a bit forced to begin with, IMO.

Personally, Flashback's death in V1 was the... creepy one I've ever seen. Edgar Allan Poe could not have come up with a worse fate, than knowing at some point in your future you will be summoned into the past to die. No wonder Flashy went bonkers. A little while after that, we learn he has disappeared from his prison cell, never to be seen again (until V3 :x ). That was supposed to be the future self that died, which would have been a nice wrap up for the character. Now, however, we're left to wonder how he got out of jail, who helped him, why, and what has he been up to all this time? Wow, retconned loose ends! ] [There are so many loose ends that need to be "fixed," "retconned," or "corrected" in just the comics I have, that it's not even funny. SL's Flashback sequence made more sense to me (ethical and legal dilemma for AF to help him) than the explanation of how PUCK survived his dunking during the 1st Pestilence sequence. How hard would it have been to state (caption, dialog, somewhere), that in exchange for teaching Elizabeth how to fight, she taught Judd how to swim?]. (*,) SL should have left it alone; FB's fate in V1 was a nice bit of writing. [I missed something, [i]again?]


[Delphine was a robot and therefore it was no big deal to alter its appearance. [...why would a robot get that scared if it was easy to fix? I'm assuming Courtney knew he/she/it was easy to repair/alter.] However, if there was anyone who could bring FB back from the dead, it would be the Master... his metal manipulation abilities) reconstructing the robotic Delphine Courtney] of course someone would need to bring him back from the dead first. [THE MASTER, blinded, (and I just read elsewhere on the internet, injected with enzyme from SCRAMBLE; geez, THE MASTER of all people couldn't find anybody better than that to inject himself with?), and dead? That just doesn't seem right to me. GRJ] :(

PS: It was the Weapon X series with Aurora, Jefferies and Wild Child. [Thanks.]

[kozzi24]

RETCON ALERT II: Scott Lobdell should be thanked for saving
FLASHBACK, since his death was a bit forced to begin with, IMO.

There's a lot of unexplored terriroty with Flashback. I question how he knows the alternates are future selves...did they ever talk? Did they ever appear aged when he saw them?
How far ahead did the dopplegangers come from?

But this is also true of the core team: there's so much that hasn't been done with them. A story is what happens to a character, and the richness of the original Alphas could provide credible, interesting stories for YEARS without new characters.

[Barnacle13]

I agree a book with just the originals is doomed for failure as well.

That's not exactly what I'm saying though. I don't think the book succeeds or fails on the specific characters featured in it. Success depends on how well those characters are written, regardless of which ones they are. There's no formula or ratio of old:new characters that's going to guarantee a successful book; it all comes back to the quality of the writing and art.

I totally agree with you on this. I don't think an all originals cast will appeal to some of the newer readers though. Some of the folks who jumped on board because of V2 or V3 would be turned off if they weren't thrown at least a small bone to intice them. If Alpha is to return to its former glory as a top seller, I think you have to recapture the "old" audience by giving them what they loved (characters, characterization, stories, art, unique Canadian flavour {even spelled it to appeal to my Northern friends}, etc.), but you shouldn't leave out the newer readers who love Puck II, MML, Jr., Flex, Radius, Ghost Girl, etc. I think some of the elements and characters from V2 and V3 need to be there also, otherwise you're leaving continuity to the wolves again, which is really what has killed Alpha Flight over the years. I think a V4 has to address some of the dangling threads and glaring continuity glitches in order to be successful. Either that or scrap everything from the past and start with a completely different concept that has not been seen in comics before. Of course that alienates everyone and thus has to build a new following on merit alone. Anyway, without good stories that give nods to the past as well as look to the future of AF, any future reboot is gonna fail. So give us great art, great characters, and great stories.

[kozzi24]

Most of the Volume 2 glitches have been dealt with, at least by being glazed over, in the subsequent Wolverine appearances. There's dangling threads, but people don't seem to be clamoring for the return of Flex and Lilli and Ghost Girl and Manbot en masse.

I will stick to my original solution for Volume 3 because I haven't heard a better one: it's all a dream of Sasquatch's. The originals never went to space, there are no alternate versions running around, the ill-defined characters don't exist, save perhaps for Mapleleaf, who Walt would have heard of during Lou's school circuits. Use characterization to rationalize the dream/s, in serveral ways: Walt's guilt that the original Alpha has not been able to locate Aurora, Walt's belief that HE should be leading the team...and on that theory, even his subconscious dream state tells him that maybe he isn't really qualified to lead the team in the last panel of the series: when he is experimenting on himself.

As the Volume 3 team appeared NOWHERE except for Volume 3, and interacted with no other comtemporary Marvel characters, there is nothing to make the all-a-dream solution to Volume 3 unfeasible

[DelBubs]

RETCON ALERT II: Scott Lobdell should be thanked for saving
FLASHBACK, since his death was a bit forced to begin with, IMO.

There's a lot of unexplored terriroty with Flashback. I question how he knows the alternates are future selves...did they ever talk? Did they ever appear aged when he saw them?
How far ahead did the dopplegangers come from?

But this is also true of the core team: there's so much that hasn't been done with them. A story is what happens to a character, and the richness of the original Alphas could provide credible, interesting stories for YEARS without new characters.One aspect of Flashback that was never fully explored was why his dopplegangers were silent and in the reverse/negative version uniform. I often wondered if these dopplegangers could use the same power. A silent future Flashback also pulling in future versions. The more I think about it, the more I want him to survive so he can be investigated further.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I agree a book with just the originals is doomed for failure as well.

....I don't think the book succeeds or fails on the specific characters featured in it. Success depends on how well those characters are written, regardless of which ones they are. There's no formula or ratio of old:new characters that's going to guarantee a successful book; it all comes back to the quality of the writing and art.

....I don't think an all originals cast will appeal to some of the newer readers though. Some of the folks who jumped on board because of V2 or V3 would be turned off if they weren't thrown at least a small bone to intice them. If Alpha is to return to its former glory as a top seller, I think you have to recapture the "old" audience by giving them what they loved (characters, characterization, stories, art, unique Canadian flavour {even spelled it to appeal to my Northern friends}, etc.), but you shouldn't leave out the newer readers who love Puck II, MML, Jr., Flex, Radius, Ghost Girl, etc. I think some of the elements and characters from V2 and V3 need to be there also, otherwise you're leaving continuity to the wolves again, which is really what has killed Alpha Flight over the years. I think a V4 has to address some of the dangling threads and glaring continuity glitches in order to be successful. Either that or scrap everything from the past and....that alienates everyone and thus has to build a new following on merit alone. Anyway, without good stories that give nods to the past as well as look to the future of AF, any future reboot is gonna fail. So give us great art, great characters, and great stories.

The only thing I can think of for WHITMAN KNAPP: head doctor of the asylum that Walt/Sasquatch cleared land for back in vol. 1, # 20 (relying on memory); Puck knew of THE MASTER in V1#16 even though he had been eviscerated in V1# 2 and not a part of that first story-arc, so I assume somebody would have briefed Shaman on KNAPP's connection to SCRAMBLE and the NEW LIFE clinic. Choosing Knapp as a lab-partner wouldn't seem like a wise decision for someone like Shaman [IMO].

Jaxon's OMEGA FLIGHT would be a little tougher and not so quick to fold; they'd never get to be Canada's protectors if they were punks (excuse my language, but it describes what has been done to some of the characters/characterizations [Courtney and Diablo come immediately to mind]).

THE ZODIAC is a definite keeper from V2. [Hope I didn't miss anything important regarding them]

[Legerd]

A little while after that, we learn he has disappeared from his prison cell, never to be seen again (until V3 :x ). That was supposed to be the future self that died, which would have been a nice wrap up for the character. Now, however, we're left to wonder how he got out of jail, who helped him, why, and what has he been up to all this time? Wow, retconned loose ends! ] [There are so many loose ends that need to be "fixed," "retconned," or "corrected" in just the comics I have, that it's not even funny. SL's Flashback sequence made more sense to me (ethical and legal dilemma for AF to help him) than the explanation of how PUCK survived his dunking during the 1st Pestilence sequence. How hard would it have been to state (caption, dialog, somewhere), that in exchange for teaching Elizabeth how to fight, she taught Judd how to swim?]. (*,) SL should have left it alone; FB's fate in V1 was a nice bit of writing. [I missed something, [i]again?]

Your right that ethical/legal dilemmas can make for excellent storylines. However, in this case the retconning of the past damaged the team's overall continuity and history more than it helped to make a good story, IMO.



Delphine was a robot and therefore it was no big deal to alter its appearance. [...why would a robot get that scared if it was easy to fix? I'm assuming Courtney knew he/she/it was easy to repair/alter.] :(

To repair damage is one thing, but if you remember Jefferies shredded the robot's body entirely! He left nothing of it's original form, in fact what did remain was turned into a new battlesuit (as revealed in AF #32) for Heather. If someone could end my existence with no more than a thought I would be scared of them too. And since Delphine had been working for Jerry Jaxxon before it would have known about Madison's powers, which is why it reacted with fear when he showed up.


However, if there was anyone who could bring FB back from the dead, it would be the Master... his metal manipulation abilities) reconstructing the robotic Delphine Courtney]

Delphine wasn't working for the Master and therefore wouldn't have been able to depend on his help for repair.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

[quote="Legerd
...Delphine wasn't working for the Master and therefore wouldn't have been able to depend on his help for repair.[/quote]

All good points. Heather donning a suit made out of an enemy's remains is much less damaging to AF continuity and makes more sense than Flashback being saved through time-travel. I had assumed Alpha Flight continuity needed fixing. Maybe it doesn't, and all versions can somehow be explained, which will be very good news.

James plugged his cybernetic helmet into the plodex ship while The Master was still controlling it back in V1# 4. The Master created an entire fish-ship while he was trapped. His metal manipulation powers must have been considerable.

[Legerd]

What if...

1. Dr. Twoyoungmen had saved his wife?

2. The Great Beasts had been Tribbles?

3. Walter had succeeded with his gamma radiation experiment?

4. Smart Alec had invented the Guardian suit?

5. Stan Lee created Alpha Flight?

6. Mac had been a mutant?

7. Scramble had been a founding member of AF?

8. The Master had been a good guy?

9. Mac and Heather had found Sabertooth instead of Wolverine?

10. Alpha Flight had been formed during WW2 to stop the nazis from freeing the Great Beasts?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

With his electromagnetic suit messed up thanks to Aurora and Northstar, James would be vulnerable, and as the "titular" leader, he would be able to approach Marrina more believably than Puck. If the attack isn't fatal, James' hospitalization and recuperation would leave the leadership reigns falling to Shaman, with Walt and Judd upset about that.

Jerry Jaxon and company have to come back to Canada to exact his revenge, kidnapping key friends of AF and relying on the different internal divisions to cause ALPHA FLIGHT's implosion right before their confrontation with OMEGA FLIGHT. Not fully recovered, James comes to AF's rescue, has throwdown with Jaxon/Box, both die, both bodies recovered, and Shaman/AF shown removing the influencers from OF and debating whether to cart OF off to jail.

[After the funerals for James and Jerry] Shaman, Walt, Puck, and Heather make it clear that Alpha Flight works best as an independent group without government interference, and Gary Cody seems to accept that.

The bureaucrats at Dept. H decide that Canada needs protectors who are under governmental control and go looking (or making) them while AF is off on its own.

[Legerd]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/Legerd/TundraSnowbird.jpg :lol:

[Phil]

What if...
9. Mac and Heather had found Sabertooth instead of Wolverine?


That I like.

It'd be interesting to see Sabes as a team player and leader of First Flight, and Wolverine working for Sinister etc etc