Anyone know John Byrne's opinion on AF?

[patrick_j_clarke]

Has anyone read anything on what JB thinks of what happened to his creation? It'd be an interesting read, I would think.

- pjc

[Phil]

http://www.sugar-gliders.com/images/store/worms.jpg

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'm not going to attempt to read his mind.

Dana

[patrick_j_clarke]

yeah, I guess I should have followed the link from another thread to JB's site.

Seems he didn't care for AF, and really doesn't care about what happens to it. :cry:

- pjc

[Ben]

yeah, I guess I should have followed the link from another thread to JB's site.

Seems he didn't care for AF, and really doesn't care about what happens to it. :cry:

- pjc

that about summs it up. Funny thing is that many say it's among his greatest works, and he says he never liked it. He should do more stuff he doesn't like!

Ben

[patrick_j_clarke]

And now after digging in deeper to the JB forum, he didn't didn't like his ARTWORK on AF, he thinks the story was fine!

As a professional artist, I know how he feels. There are many things "out there" that people love of mine that I just don't dig.

One of the biggest hits on my website is a Spawn pin-up I did as an afterthought to one of my favorite Spawn pieces I ever did...and guess what? The afterthought one that I wouldn't claim is always at the top of the hit list...sigh.

I guess what I'm saying is sometimes the creators are their own worst critic.

- pjc

[cmdrkoenig67]

Believe me, Patrick...you're not alone. I'm frequently not happy with my own artwork. I'm always thinking it's not good enough or maybe I could've done something differently, etc, etc....

Dana

[HappyCanuck]

All artists are their worse critics. That's why I tend to look at some of the work in the albums and think how lucky they are to be that much more talented, even tho the artist will say it's one of the worse pieces they've done. But most of that is, being the artist, you get to see all the mistakes close-up and for extended periods of time, so they stand out more to you, where as to others they don't seem as bad

[birdygirl]

I just remember something John Byrne said about Alpha Flight some time ago.

Back around 1997, (when we first started getting the internet), I discovered an AOL Alpha Flight message board. Everyone had an opinion, and it was great fun reading them. I remember having seen a message in passing from John Byrne himself, saying that although he wouldn't be posting much, he would look in now and then just to see what we had to say.

It was great finally having a place to vent. My favorite topic, (which probably bored everyone in sight), was the unnecessary deaths of Snowbird, Doug Thompson, and their son. One night, I really went to town on the particularly wasteful death of Snowbird's son. I explained how in AF, vol.1, #36, he was shown to be a possible shapeshifter like his mother, and to have strong powers as well. Yet, as I said, "he was killed off before he had a chance to prove anything." I ended by ranting, "Talk about wasted potential!"

The next night, I was astonished to see a reply from John Byrne! :shock: I wish I still had a copy of this, but I can remember the essence of what he said:

"To me, the saddest thing about Alpha Flight after I left the book, was that it became The Book Where People Died". He went on to say that there were too many deaths in the book, and that it wasn't easy for readers to bond with the book knowing that the characters were going to end up as "cannon fodder".

I couldn't agree more, and I found John Byrne's opinion on this particularly interesting. Just thought I'd pass this along. :wink:

[cmdrkoenig67]

You know...I've noticed over the years that John has mentioned certain characters from AF and seems to have a tone of "fondness" to his posts about them. I think he has a soft spot for them(in some manner). He seems to like Aurora and Sasquatch the most....and he named Snowbird for another character of his from many years ago(though they are very different people). I believe a few of them were first created in his college days(Guardian and Snowbird??? If anybody knows which ones, please share).

I don't believe he hates them, just that he may be a bit...well....bitter about being coerced into working on a book he had no real desire to do.
I may be reading too much into it, but he seemed to have grown attached to them to a degree(I'm not reading his mind...really!)....And why not? I think he made some very interesting characters. I feel the character development he wrought on these "one notes" was just amazing. They are visually stunning(costumes and faces), diverse and there's just nobody else out there like them.

His additions of Puck, Marrina, Talisman, Madison Jeffries, Roger Bochs, Omega Flight, Deadly Ernest, Nemesis, The Master of the World, Gilded Lily, etc, etc....made the Marvel Universe a much more interesting place.

They're Canadian, but you don't have to be Canadian to love them....I guess that's why I do love them.....I'm just getting sappy now, aren't I? Okay...I'll stop. :cry:

Dana :oops: :D

[Weapon Omega]

This is why the Alpha Waves forum is the only message board I come to to talk comics!!

I don't think any other comic book has such a passionate, diehard following than Alpha Flight! You can really hear the emotion coming through these posts, does anyone else agree?!?!

I've always loved Alpha Flight because it was always a great mix of characters, their personalities made them one of the best teams in comics history. I didn't care who was on the roster at any given time, you knew it would be great superhero adventure stories. Alpha Flight has been too underrated for too long, and it's a shame to see Vols. #2-3 last for 20 and 12 issues respectfully when Vol. #1 lasted for over ten years, 10 YEARS!!

Sorry everyone, I'll stop before I keep rambling, All in all, I'm a huge Alpha fan like everyone else on these boards. It's nice to have a place to talk and vent about these excellent yet underused characters.
Take Care.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I've ranted and raved and vented on Whitman Knapp---WHITMAN KNAPP!---so I appreciate reading about the passionate support that ALPHA FLIGHT has.

Again, I agree that AF is unappreciated (at one time, I would've tried to be more diplomatic by writing underappreciated, but I've read some of the other posts about what has happened to the AF characters and it's a dirty, rotten shame! Aurora, dead. Northstar, killed three times in a month! Sasquatch left for dead after a run-in with Sabretooth. [Personal note: the real Sasquatch should've ripped Sabretooth a new *ss in a good fight])

John Byrne evolved Alpha Flight into my favorite comic-book team: tight interdependencies, quirky, distinct, unpredictable. Now, although I like the medium and I like Alpha Flight, I'm conflicted by their treatment, so-much-so that my day for buying comics may finally be over.

[Connell]

Well I'm a huge Marvel fan (I own the Marvel Megasite and yes we do have an Alpha Flight forum on the message boards :D ) but as much as I love the X-Men, Fantastic Four & Avengers, I'll always hold a special love for Alpha Flight. When the series first came out in 1983, I was a cadet away at a military academy, and getting Alpha every month was a great escape from the misery of that place. (and Aurora was my first comic book crush LOL) I'd hate to think that Byrne would turn his back on the Flight because IMO Alpha Flight and of course his run on Uncanny X-Men was his best work to date. I'd love to see John at the helm of a new Alpha Flight series, and if we're lucky maybe someday we will. :)

[jay042]

I was of the understanding that Byrne has nothing to do with Marvel anymore. Nobody from the old days likes him personally and he's not young and hip enough to interest Quesada.

[Loki]

You know...I've noticed over the years that John has mentioned certain characters from AF and seems to have a tone of "fondness" to his posts about them. I think he has a soft spot for them(in some manner). He seems to like Aurora and Sasquatch the most....and he named Snowbird for another character of his from many years ago(though they are very different people). I believe a few of them were first created in his college days(Guardian and Snowbird??? If anybody knows which ones, please share).


He created a character called Snowbird for his college newspaper strip.

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/snowbir2.htm

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/snobird3.htm

[syvalois]

He created a character called Snowbird for his college newspaper strip.

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/snowbir2.htm

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/snobird3.htm




Cool :P

[Big Boss]

yeah, I guess I should have followed the link from another thread to JB's site.

Seems he didn't care for AF, and really doesn't care about what happens to it. :cry:

- pjc


Now THAT is just a real shame. He doesn't even care for his own creation, despite how original it is and that it can't be duplicated. I think he's making a mistake, going around like that.

[DelBubs]

Now THAT is just a real shame. He doesn't even care for his own creation, despite how original it is and that it can't be duplicated. I think he's making a mistake, going around like that.

Found this while wandering aimlessly around the net, it's from Sequential Tart 1999 (http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/june99/byrne.shtml)

ST: During your run on Alpha Flight, you rather controversially killed off The Guardian — what made you take that decision?
JB: He was the least interesting character, but his death generated the most interesting storyline. Ruthless mechanics!

I'm not trying to generate a 'let's rip into Byrne session', just wanna find out if people think Byrne was right about Mac. Personally I kinda agree with him, on the whole, weighing up the good and bad, Mac was/is a pretty boring character. A very two dimensional Reed Richards rip off.

[Powersurge]

I don't agree; either with Byrne killing off Mac or that he is a Reed Richards rip-off. Mac's inventive intellect never defined him, and his relationship with Heather was, ummmm, "socially irregular", if nevertheless legally permissable by Canadian standards. He was/is a fairly unique dude overall.

Also, it was with Mac's death in issue 12 of volume 1 that I began to lose interest in the the title. Then with the "death" of Sasquatch and turning Walt into Box, well, all I can say is that I'm glad I didn't stick around to see him become Wanda, which would've killed ME, irrevocably. No rebirth next issue, or next volume, or next incanrantion of the mainstream universe.

You can't just kill off guys like Mac and Sasq. Thats almost like killing Wolvie. These guys define Marvel Canada ... they put Canada on the Marvel Universe map, and without them, the interest would never have existed to begin with.

I did like the Omega Flight story arc, but it would have been better if Mac had just survived. Less interesting characters could have been killed, eg. Puck, Marrina, Snowbird, Shaman. And then, worst case scenario, they would have been replaced by other equally less interesting characters who would nevertheless have been "new", and wouldn't have been witlessly replacing proven icons.

[seroquel]

maybe the fact that he wasn't crazy about these characters is why the stories tended to be good. i think in a lot of comics you feel too much what the writers preferences are, and the stories go off in crazy, unfeasible directions.

and his run on AF, for me anyway, was really good because he was ruthless and did kill of mac. he designed mac to be really liked so he could write a story about how he died.

however i do agree that it is bad to think of AF as a place where people go to die. but in the early 80s that was a pretty big deal. where as now we are used to it from x-statix and every other book.

oh yeah, keep being passionate about AF everybody. i think its awesome!

[cmdrkoenig67]

Now THAT is just a real shame. He doesn't even care for his own creation, despite how original it is and that it can't be duplicated. I think he's making a mistake, going around like that.

Found this while wandering aimlessly around the net, it's from Sequential Tart 1999 (http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/june99/byrne.shtml)

ST: During your run on Alpha Flight, you rather controversially killed off The Guardian — what made you take that decision?
JB: He was the least interesting character, but his death generated the most interesting storyline. Ruthless mechanics!

I'm not trying to generate a 'let's rip into Byrne session', just wanna find out if people think Byrne was right about Mac. Personally I kinda agree with him, on the whole, weighing up the good and bad, Mac was/is a pretty boring character. A very two dimensional Reed Richards rip off.

I agree with you(and Byrne) on this thought, Del...I always thought Mac was on the far boring side as characters go. however, I don't see him as a straight Reed Richards swipe...he seems to be more of a Reed/Tony Stark amalgamation to me.

Dana

[DelBubs]

I can't really see much of Stark in Mac. Stark was initially a self serving person, trying to make money from war and only building the armour to save himself. Reed and mac both did what they did out of a sense of bettering life for all. I suppose both Mac and Reed are people to look up to and admire for the way they are willing to sacrifice themselves for some greater good, but it does make for a boring character IMHO.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I only meant Mac is like Tony in the making of high-tech armor for himself....that was my only comparison...hence I said an amalgamation of the two(he and Reed). I apologize if my meaning wasn't clear enough.

Dana :D

[DelBubs]

No apology needed Dana. i can see the connection between Mac and Stark when it comes to the armour. However I guess I was trying to get across that they are totally different characters, whereas I see a lot of similarities between mac and Reed. They have both almost sacrificed the love of a wonderful woman in their pursuit of helping others.

To be honest, I can't really recall a situation where mac has given full reign to his emotions, every reaction he has shown seems to have been a measured one. Unlike Shrek, Mac doesn't seem to have layers.

[syvalois]

Unlike Shrek, Mac doesn't seem to have layers.

Shrek ? euh, hummm, ok. :) Anyway Mac could be seen as a mixed of spider-man Stark and Reed. Reed always had fun to do the superstuff, the reluctant hero is spider-man and Mac was certainly an reluctant hero.


I did like the Omega Flight story arc, but it would have been better if Mac had just survived. Less interesting characters could have been killed, eg. Puck, Marrina, Snowbird, Shaman.


I totally disagree with you. Puck, Marrina, Snowbird, Shaman are very interesting characters and some might say a lot more interesting than Mac. I never really was found of Mac maybe because I knew he was dead before reading #12 or maybe not. But even if Mac death maybe killed the longivity, the unity of an AF serie, I don't care. That issue was so good but most of all the repercussion, when we followed Heather was one of the best comic death aftermath I've ever seen. So, if you thought Mac was boring or not is not important, it's the repercussion of his death that was interesting and no other character could have generate that kind of feeling.

No?

[DelBubs]

I agree that the repercussions of Macs death made for more interesting stories. However given that Byrne had never intended to go past #12 anyways, it would suggest that his original intent was to get rid of his least interesting character.

That said, was there anyway Mac could have become interesting given his depiction by Byrne, in his early appearences?

[Powersurge]

That said, was there anyway Mac could have become interesting given his depiction by Byrne, in his early appearences?

I would say that the number of people who prefer to see Mac alive and well is an adequette answer to that.

[kozzi24]

That said, was there anyway Mac could have become interesting given his depiction by Byrne, in his early appearences?

I would say that the number of people who prefer to see Mac alive and well is an adequette answer to that.

Many of those who prefer Mac have come across to me as people who hate change in comics, and, worse, sexist: some of the people in "my" shop who prefer Mac over Heather are also one who didn't like Wasp's chair of the Avengers. They seem to think Men should lead the teams.
I don't know about outright interesting, but Mac was never explored...parents, siblings? We know Heather came from a large family and was somewhat alienated from them, but I don't recall ANY real mention of Mac's family. Were his parents dead, or was there untold stories there. Has Heather ever even met her in-laws?

[DelBubs]

I was hoping to convey the question of whether Byrne could have actually made Mac an interesting character, given the restrictions he put on any character developemet by his early writing of Mac.

I would say that the number of people who prefer to see Mac alive and well is an adequette answer to that.
You would think that reader support would be an indication as to how good a character is, but we have the example of Wolverine, which would seem to negate your arguement :-)

[Powersurge]

Many of those who prefer Mac have come across to me as people who hate change in comics, and, worse, sexist: some of the people in "my" shop who prefer Mac over Heather are also one who didn't like Wasp's chair of the Avengers. They seem to think Men should lead the teams.


woudl these people be racists who beat their children too?!?!?

I've never met anyone who prefered a living Mac who had major problems with change, in or out of comics, or who were sexist.

For shame ...

[Legerd]

Many of those who prefer Mac have come across to me as people who hate change in comics, and, worse, sexist: some of the people in "my" shop who prefer Mac over Heather are also one who didn't like Wasp's chair of the Avengers. They seem to think Men should lead the teams.
I don't know about outright interesting, but Mac was never explored...parents, siblings? We know Heather came from a large family and was somewhat alienated from them, but I don't recall ANY real mention of Mac's family. Were his parents dead, or was there untold stories there. Has Heather ever even met her in-laws?

Well now, that's a mighty big brush you just painted us (those who prefer Mac in the suit) all with. I neither hate change in comics nor think women are inferior. (Except when it comes to opening jars. :wink: ) I didn't mind that Heather took up the role as leader (a role in which she was superb), I just wish Mac hadn't been killed off so quickly. I wanted to read more about him and Heather as the parental units of AF, because they were such a great team together. Yeah, he wore the suit and he had the technical know-how, but she had the will and the guts to do what was needed no matter what the situation. If they could be fused into a single being (hmmm, me thinks there be a story there) they would be one of the greatest heroes ever.

[kozzi24]

I was referring to in-person conversations at comic shops, not about most of the Mac-supporters here...written responses tend to be a bit more thought out . And yes, in ONE very old conversation I do remember, someone in the shop came across as both sexist and racist in his b'ing and moaning about Monica Rambeau as chair of the Avengers. Walt "Simonson SOOOOOOOOO knew what he was doing" referencing the Avengers circa 295.
My anti-change view comes in even when looking at Snowbird's resurrection: a move to make Alpha the original team, with a story that blatantly ignored actual Alpha history...such as Sasquatch having Snowbird's body.
I personally am all for Heather in the leadership role, in the suit, and have been along along on the forums...don't stone me for referencing other peoples' mindlessness.

And, to answer the real question, that role for Heather would make Mac more interesting:
How does he cope with his younger wife in "his" leadership role?
A role for Mac as father and househusband would be a nice contrast to many of the archtypes in Alpha.
He can fully contribute to stories in his scientific research role, and training of Betas.
How does he really cope with having been dead and resurrected and imitated so many times?
Having been dead so many times, would Mac really want to be an active combatant? It would be very reasonable that he would have an "unreasonable" fear of dying again...and that fear should play into an overprotective parenting of his daughter, and confluct with Heather for her role in the field.

[Legerd]

I was referring to in-person conversations at comic shops, not about most of the Mac-supporters here...written responses tend to be a bit more thought out . And yes, in ONE very old conversation I do remember, someone in the shop came across as both sexist and racist in his b'ing and moaning about Monica Rambeau as chair of the Avengers.

Ah, okay then. I didn't realize you were only refering to something off the forum.


And, to answer the real question, that role for Heather would make Mac more interesting:
How does he cope with his younger wife in "his" leadership role?
A role for Mac as father and househusband would be a nice contrast to many of the archtypes in Alpha.
He can fully contribute to stories in his scientific research role, and training of Betas.
How does he really cope with having been dead and resurrected and imitated so many times?
Having been dead so many times, would Mac really want to be an active combatant? It would be very reasonable that he would have an "unreasonable" fear of dying again...and that fear should play into an overprotective parenting of his daughter, and confluct with Heather for her role in the field.

I have to disagree with you that Heather as leader and Mac as housedad would make him a better character. More than likely he would have become even more disliked. If he accepts the role he'll just go on being boring, if he resents Heather he'll become bitter and spiteful which will turn fans against him.
I don't think Mac needs to cope with having died since he actually has only died once, in that lame story in X-men when Archangel healed him. All the other times were retconned into close calls. Besides, the last thing AF needs is another member suffering from psychological scarring. I personally feel that has been done to death with this team. If you want to make him more interesting, Marvel should delve into his personality (PLEASE) and show us what makes this mild mannered guy put on a supersuit and take on powerhouses like Juggernaut for a government that has screwed him over so many times.

[Le Messor]

Couldn't being 'killed' so many times also have the exact opposite effect?
"I can battle all I want, I'm immortal."

- Le Messor
"Do married people live longer than single people or does it just SEEM longer?"

[kozzi24]

I kind of picture Mac in the lab with one of those child slings on his back, carrying around the daughter as he works, her eyes wide with processing what he is doing on intuitive levels.

I think Mac is solid enough with Heather and detached enough in general that he wouldn't resent Heather's leadership role, particularly as he never wanted the job. He might come to resent comments from others about being "nothing but a house-husband" tho...who on the forum can't picture some of the jibes Walt and J-P would be saying about that?