Will Marvel teams include us?

[Mokole]

Anybody think Marvel Team Handbook 2005 will really include AF? If so, which AF? I figure that AF will be there but they could avoid them by having 6 X-Men 'team's', 3 Avengers, and things like Cap and Falcon counting as a team, or Deadpool, or who Deadpool used to work for....

[Ben]

I suspect AF will be there, most likely ANADAF will have a writeup, and possibly a not for classic AF.

Ben

[kozzi24]

I would THINK they would do fairly complete team histories, so should include all phases

[PWalk]

I would be shocked if AF wasn't included. But then again this is Marvel we're talking about.

[Adam]

If AF are included I'd be intersteding to see if how the writer spins their history. I almost suspect the "oh, for some reason now there's two Alphas and the timeline is all screwy" won't be included.

[birdygirl]

Probably classic AF will be mentioned, though I have the feeling ANADAF will get a passing nod.

I wonder if it's still the case where when Alpha Flight is mentioned, people automatically think of the classic John Byrne team. :?: At least, this seemed to be so, before the introduction of Volume 3.

[Phil]

Yup, I'm in there on page 13 as part of Ego-Flight.

[-K-M-]

When does the new handbook come out?

[Ben]

It's scheduled to be out on May 18th

Ben

[-K-M-]

It's scheduled to be out on May 18th

Ben

Beautiful, thanks

[Weapon Omega]

I'm sure Alpha will be mentioned in the Marvel Teams book. Although, with a lot of these "New and Improved" Handbooks, only characters that appear in comics Marvel still publishes get in, just a thought.

[DarkSnowbird]

I heard all the covers connect

[skullogeist]

So, did anyone pick it up yet?

Alpha-Fans should be interested in at least two of the teams featured in the book.

If anything, the book should help refute Weapon Omega's theory that "only characters that appear in comics Marvel still publishes get in." :wink:

[-K-M-]

I picked it up and it had a huge list of old teams I completly forgot about; but the bio for Alpha Flight was way too short.

[Mokole]

Who was included, just Byrne Alpha Flight?

[Ben]

Not all that impressed myself. (sorry Eric) The whole bio was one page. It barely dicussed any AF history, only enough to use to explain vol.3. They took the storybook ending of vol.3 as being set in stone, and to me this came across as mothing more than a vague possible future. Anyway, I understand thet they had limitations, but Excalibur got 2 pages, as did Brotherhood of Mutants, Masters of Evil, New Warriors, Power Pack, Thunderbolts, Winter Guard, X-Force, X-Men and Avengers. I think these last two do indeed need more space than AF does, but common, yer gonna do a whole exera page for freekin' Winter Guard!?

The listed Classic as being the current roster, with Lou and Zuzha as Reserve.

I DO like that they didn't mention the existance of the "Past Alpha" coming into the present.

Ben

[HappyCanuck]

:shock: Winter Guard and Power Pack got two pages, whereas Alpha only got one??

Don't get me wrong, I like Power Pack, and Winter Guard was always interesting to me (even if they NEVER had their own series or all that exposure other than to tell us 'yep, we still exist'), but they have more coverage than ALPHA?! God that's depressing.

BUT at least they state the classic team is the current team, and having Lou and Zu as 'reserve' members, that I can live with (the only two new characters out of v.3 I actually gave a damn about).

[-K-M-]

Horrible I was pissed since they did not cover the rich history of the old Alpha Flight. Hell, they have connections to many of the teams in the databook and they are constantly making cameos in comics today...yet they get nothing. Hell their bio wasn't even a full page it was just one column and the rest was who was on the team and who left.

[maniac mike]

About 3 weeks ago, I posted who I wanted to get the OHOTMU treatment over at Comixfan Forums (which of course was Alpha Flight) and LOKI, one of the writers for the OHOTMU responded with this quote...

"Well, I suppose you could make leather out of their skins and use the blood for ink, but it's a pretty gross and cruel thing to do to the members of Alpha Flight, and its not even like you'd be able to make more than a couple thousand copies, even if you rendered down members of Beta and Gamma Flight too."

"Maybe we should stick to paper and ink and just write about the team instead?"

This is the link if you want to respond to LOKI's quote...

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=33026&page=1

MM :-#

[Loki]

About 3 weeks ago, I posted who I wanted to get the OHOTMU treatment over at Comixfan Forums (which of course was Alpha Flight) and LOKI, one of the writers for the OHOTMU responded with this quote...

"Well, I suppose you could make leather out of their skins and use the blood for ink, but it's a pretty gross and cruel thing to do to the members of Alpha Flight, and its not even like you'd be able to make more than a couple thousand copies, even if you rendered down members of Beta and Gamma Flight too."

"Maybe we should stick to paper and ink and just write about the team instead?"

This is the link if you want to respond to LOKI's quote...

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=33026&page=1

MM :-#

Hey, if you're going to quote me, then it wouldn't hurt to quote the actual question I was replying to, so you can see my reply in context. :) What you said exactly was


I would like to see ALPHA FLIGHT be made into a handbook!

Plus you missed out the emoticon in my reply. It was a joke. I was being facetious. It maybe wasn't a particularly funny joke, but I'd had a long day with very little sleep by that point, so at the time I thought it was hilarious; sleep deprivation will do that for you.

Edit: And joking aside, I would like to see a Handbook covering Alpha Flight, its members and its enemies. However, I just don't see it happening, based purely on how sales would be likely to go. If an Alpha Flight comic can't sell enough to sustain itself, Marvel aren't likely to believe an Alpha Flight Handbook would sell any better.

[Loki]

Although, with a lot of these "New and Improved" Handbooks, only characters that appear in comics Marvel still publishes get in, just a thought.

That'd be why the Champions of L.A. got an entry in this book then? :P Not to mention the Champions of Xandar and Mys-Tech.

[Loki]

Not all that impressed myself. (sorry Eric) The whole bio was one page. It barely dicussed any AF history, only enough to use to explain vol.3.

That's largely because AF had an entry in the Wolverine Handbook which covered the earlier history. The remit given to the writer of this entry (rightly or wrongly) was given was to concentrate on the new incarnation of the team, who hadn't had Handbook coverage up to that point. Given he only had a single page to do so, that gave him a very low word count to squeeze in mention of the old team.


They took the storybook ending of vol.3 as being set in stone, and to me this came across as mothing more than a vague possible future.

Actually we took the ending of vol.3 as confusing and unclear, so we went back to Marvel and asked editorial for clarification (and they, I presume, asked Scott Lobdell as part of that). What made it into the final profile was the official outcome of that query.


Anyway, I understand thet they had limitations, but Excalibur got 2 pages, as did Brotherhood of Mutants, Masters of Evil, New Warriors, Power Pack, Thunderbolts, Winter Guard, X-Force, X-Men and Avengers. I think these last two do indeed need more space than AF does, but common, yer gonna do a whole exera page for freekin' Winter Guard!?
Excalibur, New Warriors, Power Pack and Thunderbolts are all teams with long histories, their own fanbases (who love them as much as AF fans love the Flight) and no prior coverage in any of the current Handbooks.

The Brotherhood and Masters of Evil are major villain teams, and compared to the heroes, villains haven't had as much coverage yet in the current series, so again, they needed two pages to do them justice.
X-Men and Avengers frankly needed more than two pages, given their lengthy and convoluted histories, but there was no way they were getting more than that in this book at the expense of another team.

As for Winter Guard, no, taken just as Winter Guard, they didn't need two pages. However, expanding that remit to include their earlier incarnations (Soviet Super-Soldiers, Supreme Soviets, etc) and to include the overall history of the Russian / Soviet superhero program, then a second page was needed.


The listed Classic as being the current roster, with Lou and Zuzha as Reserve.

That's what we were told was the current team when we asked for clarifications.


I DO like that they didn't mention the existance of the "Past Alpha" coming into the present.

Like I said, the overall status of that final story is confusing and uncertain, so until another story follows on and clarifies things, the feeling was that it should be left out of the Handbook.

I'd agree that in an ideal situation, AF deserves to get a multi-page Handbook entry which covers all their incarnations. However, we currently have themed books; some characters and groups only fit a narrow number of themes, while others fit many. We don't pick the themes, so we never know when a given character or team might get another chance of a Handbook entry. We do however have a good idea as to which themes are more likely to crop up, based on common sense - there's bound to be more X-Men Handbooks, for example. With each book, we get a list of "must includes", and then some flexibility to suggest others who should be included. One factor that influences us when putting forward our suggestions is who has been covered before and who might not get another chance; I love AF, but they'd been covered before.

[Ben]

Hi Loki, welcome aboard, and thanks for the clarifications.

I thought that the coverage in the Wolvie handbook might have had something to do with the limited entry, but I don't agree that it should have. Alpha Flight has a rich history, and for those unfamiliar with it, reading that entry wouldn't be getting an accurate description of the team. In buying a book like OHMU : TEAMS, I would expect to get a full history on the teams, not just a quick run down of the most recent incarnation. Why wasn't the Avengers entry just about the current "New Avengers" with Wolvie and Spidey? Sure, there was lots more info in the Wolvie handbook, but how are people who didn't buy it supposed to know that?

As for the info Marvel had given you about the "wrap up" of the series, as time goes on, thought I quite enjoyed the series, I am wanting the whole thing to be a dream. The ending made it all very difficult to explain.

Like I said, I understand how much work goes into this kind of thing, and have the utmost respect for those who do it, however as an Alpha Flight fan, I feel they deserved more in this book.

Ben

[Loki]

Hi Loki, welcome aboard, and thanks for the clarifications.

I thought that the coverage in the Wolvie handbook might have had something to do with the limited entry, but I don't agree that it should have. Alpha Flight has a rich history, and for those unfamiliar with it, reading that entry wouldn't be getting an accurate description of the team.

I wouldn't disagree with you on the rich history front, or that the entry didn't really cover all of it; however, with only a single page assigned to them for this book, the options were to either do an overview of their entire history (and try doing that justice in one page), or in concentrating on one section, the newest, which had not yet had any coverage, so that at least that bit could get reasonable coverage.

In buying a book like OHMU : TEAMS, I would expect to get a full history on the teams, not just a quick run down of the most recent incarnation.

Giving the new team some publicity was seen as a priority because, when the choices were made as to which groups should be included, none of us knew the title was going to be cancelled - we only learned that just before the entries were sent in.


Why wasn't the Avengers entry just about the current "New Avengers" with Wolvie and Spidey?

Because the Avengers haven't had an entry of any sort in this current series covering their history prior to this Handbook.


Sure, there was lots more info in the Wolvie handbook, but how are people who didn't buy it supposed to know that?

Inside front cover - "For more teams see...Wolverine Handbook '04 - Alpha Flight"


As for the info Marvel had given you about the "wrap up" of the series, as time goes on, thought I quite enjoyed the series, I am wanting the whole thing to be a dream. The ending made it all very difficult to explain.

For us too.


Like I said, I understand how much work goes into this kind of thing, and have the utmost respect for those who do it, however as an Alpha Flight fan, I feel they deserved more in this book.

Ben

The trouble is, and will remain, that if a reader perceives the Handbooks as stand-alone items, then they will be disappointed with some of them because a character / team they feel should be included under a given theme has either been missed out or given fewer pages than they feel they deserve. Having the books themed unfortunately encourages this viewpoint. We realised early on that there was no way to do a decent Handbook if we treated each as stand-alone: you can't give large groups like the X-Men decent coverage if you try and cover all their members in a single book - you'd end up with a lot of quarter page profiles; Women of Marvel would have been a list of names, with no additional details; Wolverine and Spider-Man would get entries in about half the books (which might please the sales guys at Marvel, but no one else). Strictly speaking, Alpha Flight probably shouldn't have gotten an entry in this book at all, since they'd had one not that long ago, and we could have found another team to take that page, but most of us like the group too much to exclude them from the book, and we wanted (pointlessly, as it turned out) to raise the profile of the latest version of the comic.

[Ben]

Again, you make very good points Loki, I'm just speaking as a biased Alpha Flight fan :P It's funny that you guys had concerns about promotion for the recent book, but Marvel sure as heck didn't!

Thanks for the inside POV.

Ben

[Loki]

Again, you make very good points Loki, I'm just speaking as a biased Alpha Flight fan :P

Oh, we're mostly biased Alpha Flight fans too - but we're also biased X-Men fans, biased Avengers fans, etc.


It's funny that you guys had concerns about promotion for the recent book, but Marvel sure as heck didn't!

It wasn't just the writers who wanted Alpha in this to boost their profile; you've got to remember, "Marvel" is not a single mind. There are (and were) a number of people there who actively wanted to promote the book, some who were happy to but had other things taking higher priority, and some of who just didn't care one way or another because they had their own titles to worry about; I doubt there was anyone who actively wanted to see the book fail.

[-K-M-]

Thanks Loki for the clarification, and I bought the Wolverine and Team handbook so all is well I suppose in the Alpha Flight bio standpoint.

My main problem is the over saturation with the constant “x” teams. However, it was great to see some teams in the databook that I thought were so great back in the day; but I had forgotten about them since they were not as mainstream as others or they ran their due course. So reading their history all over again was quite enjoyable.

[skullogeist]

Again, you make very good points Loki, I'm just speaking as a biased Alpha Flight fan :P

Oh, we're mostly biased Alpha Flight fans too - but we're also biased X-Men fans, biased Avengers fans, etc.

Hey, don't forget biased Big Hero 6 fans!!

[Le Messor]

"Well, I suppose you could make leather out of their skins and use the blood for ink, but it's a pretty gross and cruel thing to do"
Hey, if you're going to quote me, then it wouldn't hurt to quote the actual question I was replying to, so you can see my reply in context. :) What you said exactly was

I would like to see ALPHA FLIGHT be made into a handbook!
Plus you missed out the emoticon in my reply. It was a joke.

Don't worry, I took it as a joke. What else can you expect from the Trickster?
I'm sure -most- of us got that you were joking. I've just decided I can speak for most of us. 8)
(But seeing the actual question helps.)

Oh, and the promotion thing? A lot of people on this list have been lamenting the lack of publicity for the last series of AF. Some say it's the lack of promotion that killed the latest Alpha Flight series. (Me, I'm in the 'it was the lack of -Alpha Flight- that killed the last two Alpha Flight series' camp.)
Long time readers should recognise that immediately, but I imagine you're a little... lost about it. As long as you're not lost on an island with a giant monster trying to eat you...



- Le Messor
"Democracy is a form of government in which it is permitted to wonder aloud what the country could do under first-class management."

[Phil]

Heh, I loved the Big Hero 6 bio, I reckon 99% of Marvel fans have never even heard of 'em :lol:

[Loki]

"Well, I suppose you could make leather out of their skins and use the blood for ink, but it's a pretty gross and cruel thing to do"
Hey, if you're going to quote me, then it wouldn't hurt to quote the actual question I was replying to, so you can see my reply in context. :) What you said exactly was

I would like to see ALPHA FLIGHT be made into a handbook!
Plus you missed out the emoticon in my reply. It was a joke.

Don't worry, I took it as a joke. What else can you expect from the Trickster?
I'm sure -most- of us got that you were joking. I've just decided I can speak for most of us. 8)
(But seeing the actual question helps.)

I have to apologise to maniac mike though. I knew what he actually meant, but at the time tiredness meant that sarky bit of me kicked in which answers questions like "Do you have the time?" by glancing at my watch and replying "Yes, I do, thanks for checking."


Oh, and the promotion thing? A lot of people on this list have been lamenting the lack of publicity for the last series of AF. Some say it's the lack of promotion that killed the latest Alpha Flight series. (Me, I'm in the 'it was the lack of -Alpha Flight- that killed the last two Alpha Flight series' camp.)
Long time readers should recognise that immediately, but I imagine you're a little... lost about it. As long as you're not lost on an island with a giant monster trying to eat you...


I'd have to agree that the lack of the recognisable Alpha Flight didn't help. If I were trying to relaunch a team series (any team series), I think I'd start with whatever membership had been the most popular (and thus hopefully the best selling), and once the title had established itself, then think about introducing all new members. Otherwise you lose the value of having an existing fan base, and you might as well be doing a brand new series with a brand new name. But what do I know?

And, though he is overexposed these days, if sales needed boosting, Alpha Flight is the one title where you can legitimately bring in Wolverine as a guest star without it feeling like you are just shoe-horning him in.

[Loki]

Heh, I loved the Big Hero 6 bio, I reckon 99% of Marvel fans have never even heard of 'em :lol:

Heh, if 99% hadn't heard of Big Hero Six, then how many knew about Euroforce? :twisted: That'll get anyone who says "Why do we need Handbooks? Everything you get in a Handbook can be found online for free."

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'd have to agree that the lack of the recognisable Alpha Flight didn't help. If I were trying to relaunch a team series (any team series), I think I'd start with whatever membership had been the most popular (and thus hopefully the best selling), and once the title had established itself, then think about introducing all new members. Otherwise you lose the value of having an existing fan base, and you might as well be doing a brand new series with a brand new name. But what do I know?

And, though he is overexposed these days, if sales needed boosting, Alpha Flight is the one title where you can legitimately bring in Wolverine as a guest star without it feeling like you are just shoe-horning him in.

I agree with you 100%, Alpha Flight should definintely be classic to start with and Wolverine as guest star in the first story arc(as long as it was well written) could really help AF start off with a bang and great sales.

Wolvie has very close ties to the folks in AF, I see no problem in him being there to welcome them back to publication. Maybe a Wolverine/Weapon X crossover would be a good start?

Dana

[rplass]

I thought that the entry in the hardcover X-Men Encyclopedia for Alpha Flight was really good. So if you combine that with the new OHOTMU:2K5T issue for the new stuff, it's pretty well-rounded. It's a shame you can't get it all in one place. So my recommendation is to get both and just read it together in one setting as if it were a single entry to get the best condensed info for Alpha Flight.

Well, since most of the entry was specifically for Alpha Flight vol.3, and by the time the book was published, vol.3 had already been canceled, I feel fortunate that Alpha Flight was given a page at all in this handbook. I didn't have the sense that Marvel was trying to promote the title, since it had already been canceled and there were no newsstand sales to promote [beyond the TPB's], but rather, Marvel chose to include the group just for the reason that it's a significant team in the Marvel Universe, so it felt like a "purer" entry. Would Power Pack have been given 2pages in such a book if it were published in 2003? Who knows? Would Alpha Flight have been included if it were published in 2006 without a relaunch to vol.4?

With so many constraints on the new handbook writers, I feel that they did the best job they could with the little space they had. Basically, they summarized a little bit of the original, and then summarized the two story arcs of vol. 3. Of course, the opening splash page in the handbook with the cover art from New Avengers could have been removed to make a 2nd Alpha Flight page. That was really an odd thing to include because New Avengers AIN'T in the handbook!!!

My only complaint about this issue is that the characters shown in the pictures are not identified. I wish there were little labels or tags on top of the pictures identifying each character by name because I just don't know who is who, even after reading the "OFFICIAL HANDBOOK", and that's just not right. I mean, if I'm going to spend $3.99 on a handbook, I shouldn't be scratching my head and wondering who some character is on page so-and-so wearing a green costume, etc. and then go onto the Internet to find out for myself. It should tell me without having to go spend more time looking up stuff somewhere else.

Love,
rplass

[Loki]

I thought that the entry in the hardcover X-Men Encyclopedia for Alpha Flight was really good. So if you combine that with the new OHOTMU:2K5T issue for the new stuff, it's pretty well-rounded. It's a shame you can't get it all in one place. So my recommendation is to get both and just read it together in one setting as if it were a single entry to get the best condensed info for Alpha Flight.

Probably not a bad recommendation - or if the X-Men Encyclopedia is a bit pricey for you, get the Wolverine Handbook and use the entry there instead.


Well, since most of the entry was specifically for Alpha Flight vol.3, and by the time the book was published, vol.3 had already been canceled, I feel fortunate that Alpha Flight was given a page at all in this handbook. I didn't have the sense that Marvel was trying to promote the title, since it had already been canceled and there were no newsstand sales to promote [beyond the TPB's], but rather, Marvel chose to include the group just for the reason that it's a significant team in the Marvel Universe, so it felt like a "purer" entry.

We the writers included entries such as the Champions of L.A. and All-Winners Squad because they were "significant teams", but part (not all - they are a significant team) of our reasoning for including Alpha again so soon after their entry in the Wolverine book was to hopefully promote the new series. Some of the guys in the Marvel offices presumably knew about the imminent cancellation when we were putting the book together, so ironically, it was Marvel who wanted them in for "purer" reasons than us.


Would Power Pack have been given 2pages in such a book if it were published in 2003? Who knows?
Possibly - they'd have gotten at least one page, I'm sure, but it didn't hurt their case that a new mini-series was due.


Would Alpha Flight have been included if it were published in 2006 without a relaunch to vol.4?

Quite possibly not - though they are important, we didn't include the Invaders again after their appearance in Golden Age Handbook. Alpha might have fallen into that same category.


With so many constraints on the new handbook writers, I feel that they did the best job they could with the little space they had. Basically, they summarized a little bit of the original, and then summarized the two story arcs of vol. 3. Of course, the opening splash page in the handbook with the cover art from New Avengers could have been removed to make a 2nd Alpha Flight page. That was really an odd thing to include because New Avengers AIN'T in the handbook!!!

Well, they are mentioned in the last paragraph of the Avengers entry.


My only complaint about this issue is that the characters shown in the pictures are not identified. I wish there were little labels or tags on top of the pictures identifying each character by name because I just don't know who is who, even after reading the "OFFICIAL HANDBOOK", and that's just not right. I mean, if I'm going to spend $3.99 on a handbook, I shouldn't be scratching my head and wondering who some character is on page so-and-so wearing a green costume, etc. and then go onto the Internet to find out for myself. It should tell me without having to go spend more time looking up stuff somewhere else.
A valid point, imo, and I'll pass it on as a suggestion - I'm fairly sure some of the writers brought up similar suggestions (we ruled out doing the old roster headshots for this book, because otherwise the X-Men would take the entire book on their own :roll: ), but having it come from a buyer might lend extra weight to the case for labelling.

[HappyCanuck]

(we ruled out doing the old roster headshots for this book, because otherwise the X-Men would take the entire book on their own :roll: )

Not to mention you'd have to dedicate an entire page to Hank Pym's headshots alone!

by the way, I should spend a couple of seconds and thank you myself (I know almost everyone else has so far, but this is something that can't be reiterated enough) for your imput Loki. It's nice to know the 'big boys' like you and Clay (and even Scott at the beginning) are taking time out of your days to talk to the fans. It's greatly appreciated.