Upcoming Puck Appearance

[Hyperstorm]

Over on CBR they have a intrerview with the writers of X-Men Unlimited #12 where it's revealed the second story is about Logan talking to Puck who's become a drunk. Read more here (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6042)

[MistressMerr]

"Alpha Flight, in the comic book and in real life, haven't been given a lot of tender loving care," Long said.

Understatement of the CENTURY.

[-K-M-]

Puck a drunk? don't know how I fell about that. Well I will pick it up to see how he handles it.

[suzene]

I shouldn't have laughed, but dang...seedy bar, moody atmosphere...and then a sloshed midget in spandex. Yup. Hell. One-way ticket.

Suzene

[Garry/Al-Fan]

This is a quote: " 'I think the biggest compliment a writer can give a character is to fu*k them up."

Considering that Judd is a former government agent, a former bouncer, a former adventurer, and a former Alpha Flighter, it should take a lot of bad things happening to him to turn him into an alcoholic. Didn't somebody do this with Tony Stark?

[Powersurge]

This is a quote: " 'I think the biggest compliment a writer can give a character is to fu*k them up."


So, does that mean Marvel has had alot of very proud writers over the past decade or so?!?!?

[DelBubs]

I'm willing to give this a look, but what I would have liked to see in any Alpha story is somthing akin to what Larsen did in Wolvie #142/143. Clear up all the crap that has dogged Alpha recently (Lobdells series 3, Austens take etc. Get a firm team on a firm base and then have the characters going down dark paths etc. Not much point imho of having Puck the piss head if he's suppose to be in space, a person from the past or whatever.

I mean is this the real Puck, the one from the past, the one from space. Clear it all up and begin again. Larsen gave them a base and apart from Tieri everyone else who wrote them in later storie fu**ed them up, continuity and character wise.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I always thought that the greatest compliment a writer could give a character is to come up with a plausible story with a beginning, middle, and end where something interesting/important happens.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I agree, Garry...I think this "f#@k the characters up" idea/approach started in the nineties and continues today(unfortunately). I like to see characters put through challenges and occasionally through the wringer, but I have no wish to see them messed up so badly that other writers would have a hard time writing them OR don't want to write them, because the character has been ruined.

By ruined, I mean "f#@ked up" so much by another writer(or various writers)that nobody will touch them with a ten foot pole. Not many writers want to clean up somebody else's messes.

I believe characters should be left pretty much as they were found...ready for the next writer to work with.

Dana

[Phil]

http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/xmenunlimited12/XMENUNLIMITED2.jpg

Hmm..... :?

[kozzi24]

Puck's lived a long life, and nothing invalidates that Puck would have this problem. The quote of messing with characters is a little extreme, but is basically sound.
Let's see how the story plays out.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Puck's lived a long life, and nothing invalidates that Puck would have this problem. The quote of messing with characters is a little extreme, but is basically sound.
Let's see how the story plays out.


...And then dump on it like all getout. 8-[

[maniac mike]

In Weapon X : DOFP #4, not only do we get to see Puck, but Diamond Lil makes an appearence as part of Chambers Weapon X refugees group called Excelsior.

MM

[DelBubs]

Puck's lived a long life, and nothing invalidates that Puck would have this problem. The quote of messing with characters is a little extreme, but is basically sound.
Let's see how the story plays out.The only thing that invalidates Puck having this problem is the fact that non of his history shows him to be a weak willed fool who would climb into a bottle to cope with lifes problems. He's been described as a noble soul who has handled more than any one person should. I really hope that the explanation for this is believable, but shan't be holding my breath.

[Phil]

I just think there's a difference between a man being drunk, and an alcoholic... I'm interested to see if he's portrayed as the latter.

[DelBubs]

Maybe I'm talking out my arse, but after re-reading that interview/column, I get the impression that we might be seeing quite a bit of Puck in Unlimited X-men or elsewhere.

[sengsterooney]

Don't forget that Puck was a bit down and out (and sleeping in alleyways) at the beginning of AF vol #2. How he got to be in that state, who knows, but it's hinted that "without a team", Puck's pretty much not very good at looking after himself. Now, this would fit in quite well with his early history (sans Mantlo's Raazer re-historying) where he was paroled out of prison to join AF.

As to the snippet of art from that issue of XMU - two things strike me:

1. This is Puck in his old AF costume. Could this then mean that this is the Puck from the 80s as opposed to the Puck in space? Or perhaps Marvel writers have decided to totally ignore Lobdell's run of vol 3 (could be a good thing>)

2. This Puck is drawn with his cauliflower ear.

Despite this being a bit of a mini-story, I like the fact that this writer has invested quite a bit of thought and reasoning into the character. More interestingly, he appears to be using Puck as a means to explore issues related to alcoholism which he has experienced himself. I think this can be a good thing.

Anyway, having been away from AF, Marvel and comics for quite a while - what's the latest news about AF? Are there still 2 teams or as alterniverse AF appearance more common these days than AF appearances in the real MU?

[Ben]

Hey Seng! Well, if this Puck appearance gets yer stamp of approval, I'll not knock it ;) More alternate version appearances lately than anything else, but Northstar was in Wolverine quite a bit for a while there. Jeffries, Aurora and Wild child were all featured quite a bit in Weapon X, and the Days of Future Now alternate future from that series has had a number of AF appearances.

Ben

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Don't forget that Puck was a bit down and out (and sleeping in alleyways) at the beginning of AF vol #2. How he got to be in that state, who knows, but it's hinted that "without a team", Puck's pretty much not very good at looking after himself. Now, this would fit in quite well with his early history (sans Mantlo's Raazer re-historying) where he was paroled out of prison to join AF.

I still don't understand all the negative ret-conning that seems to be accepted as gospel! Judd was a government agent and a paroled felon? The Prime Minister and the Minister of Defense must be so proud!

[syvalois]

I still don't understand all the negative ret-conning that seems to be accepted as gospel! Judd was a government agent and a paroled felon?

??? You did not knew that? It always had been part of Puck history. Byrne wrote that. So, it's not a retcon

[Garry/Al-Fan]

....because I don't have a photographic memory. I don't doubt you. Guess I didn't know that. Please tell me which book that is in.

Still think it makes little sense, even if Byrne wrote it. However, unreliable narrators (OUT-AND-OUT LIARS and DEVIOUS BACKBITERS) are par for the course when it comes to characters in Alpha Flight, and Gary Cody is one of the biggest. Believe a bureaucrat, hook line and sinker, and somebody's going to get snookered.

Super-secret Dept. H must be pulling the wool over a lot of high-level eyes to do all the stuff that's been done.

Oh, BTW, Puck is also supposed to have been in some kind of institute for the Criminally Insane. As I said before, The Prime Minister and the Minister of Defense must be so pleased that murderers and lunatics are defending Canada.

[HappyCanuck]

....because I don't have a photographic memory. I don't doubt you. Guess I didn't know that. Please tell me which book that is in.

Still think it makes little sense, even if Byrne wrote it. However, unreliable narrators (OUT-AND-OUT LIARS and DEVIOUS BACKBITERS) are par for the course when it comes to characters in Alpha Flight, and Gary Cody is one of the biggest. Believe a bureaucrat, hook line and sinker, and somebody's going to get snookered.

Super-secret Dept. H must be pulling the wool over a lot of high-level eyes to do all the stuff that's been done.

Oh, BTW, Puck is also supposed to have been in some kind of institute for the Criminally Insane. As I said before, The Prime Minister and the Minister of Defense must be so pleased that murderers and lunatics are defending Canada.


Actually, it's not uncommon for government agencies to recruit/draft criminals, the criminally unstable and the likes, esp in covert/black ops settings (which DH and Alpha were originally meant to be).

[sengsterooney]

Since when was Puck in an institute for the criminally insane? I must admit that I haven't picked up any AF since years back (I finished up with Vol 2 and any guest appearances that occurred after that in Wolverine and UXM), so may not have caught on to any "creative" ret cons since then.

To my knowledge, Puck was in prison for killing someone when he was paroled out to join Alpha Flight. At that point, he was living in Toronto and working as a bouncer at a bar (Corky's I think). Byrne established that Judd has had a 'shady' past, perhaps as a mercenary (though the govt agent thing would fit in too).

I tend to suffer amnesia re: anything to do with eh Raazer debacle, so was glad when Seagle retconned the whole thing out. Another thing which appears to have been retconned out is his invulnerability and super strength (able to press 1 ton I think), which was institued by Fabian Nicieza.

I used to have a Puck's Place website out on the WWW but that may have gone the way of the Dodo. It was chock full of Puck info, including an FAQ, and a "Banter with Judd" section which raised some hilarious questions posed to Puck. :-)

Seng

[DelBubs]

Hiya Seng, I think the reference to criminally insane ties into the 'Clinic for Maladjusted Supertypes' which is where Maddy met Bochs, even though they hadn't met until AF#15. I tend to ignore that whole clinic stuff.

[sengsterooney]

Hiya Delster. Yes... Mantlo era... bad dream. Did not exist. Was an Elseworlds or Alterniverse thing. :-) Mind you, what has happened to AF since vol 2 seems to equal Mantlo's era in just plain badness.

But... did Puck say he was in that Centre for Maldajusted Super Beings? This would be odd because (a) Puck did not have super powers at that point in time (and any super powers he did gain since has since been retconned out of existence).

This much I know about Puck (until I can find that Puck's Place website on the net archives):

1. Was paroled out of prison to join AF.
2. Spent some time years back living at Hull House (where he met the young Jared and Adrian Corbo)
3. Was a mercenary - ran with an outfit of super-powered mercenaries, called The Outcasts (IIRC)
4. Knew Ernest Hemingway
5. Was long in love with Heather (never requited AFAIK)

I'm sure that any or all of the above would turn any normal, sane person to the demon drink. :-)

[sengsterooney]

Google is king. As the site was hosted at Geocities/Yahoo, it never died. It had just been launched into space in search of an alien civilisation. In the meantime, it's past self materialised on earth. :-)

Anyway, the URL Is: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/3357/puck.htm

Most of the Puck info can be found in the "Puck's History' section, but my fav'rit is the slightly ridiculous Banter with Judd section, thanks mainly to just as ridiculous questions from notaries such as Del. :-)

[DelBubs]

Hiya Seng, how ya doing fella?

Regarding Puck, I can't quite remember who mentioned the maladjusted heroes place, but it countered the Bochs/Maddy meeting origin so I am leaning towards Maddy mentioning it, but I have an image of it also being mentioned by Puck. Where's DMK when you need him?

As regards your five points, all correct as far as I'm concerned, anything else are the ramblings of deranged writers. God knows AF have had a few, you only got to look at vol 3 :-(

[HappyCanuck]

One thing still confuses me: IIRC, didn't Lobdell do his own retcon for vol. 3 by doing a 'Dallas', making the entire series a dream, thus all a figment of his own head? (I don't have the last few issues of series 3) If that's the case, then no one's in space, and there isn't two groups of AF running amok...

[DelBubs]

I have them for you Allan, sheer bloody laziness has kept them from you. My bad. As regards what Lobdell did, **** knows, I'm not sure he really knows, but I got the impression that things would be allowed to stand. Heather and whoever off in space, Team circa #28 in this time. Hopefully it'll be all sorted if Flashback buys it very soon, or whoever writes the Puck story retcons the granny out of what Lobdell did.

I'm probably totally wrong in this and there was a massive retcon, can't bring myself to read vol 3 again, to find out.

[Defunct]

No, nothing was "all a dream".

[varo]

no way that was all a dream............


a nightmare maybe. dream. no way.

[sengsterooney]

Wow... this is the third day in a row I am making a post to this forum. :-)

Actually, Alpha Flight as a comic has a built-in device that could explain the horribleness of vol 3 (IMO), and she's called The Dreamqueen. To my knowlegde, she was never destroyed and could have returned to the world and infected the dreams of Alphans, making them think that they had been replaced by drop-outs from the Justice League of Europe circa (1990), and that their past-selves had re-materialised in Marvel Reality.

Alternatively, there could be some Marvel comic somewhere, which happens to guest star some of the Alphans, and one of the panel could show Puck waking up going: "Oh God! What a bad dream!" (I think Alan Davis did something similar in the X-Men/Clandestine cross-over mini-series).

BTW, Del, I do remember that reference to the Clinic for Maladjusted Superbeings. It was in a Mantlo issue and Madison makes a passing remark that Judd too had spent time at the clinic. This would be in keeping with Mantlo's quest to destroy Puck's character.

[HappyCanuck]

Wow... this is the third day in a row I am making a post to this forum. :-)

Actually, Alpha Flight as a comic has a built-in device that could explain the horribleness of vol 3 (IMO), and she's called The Dreamqueen. To my knowlegde, she was never destroyed and could have returned to the world and infected the dreams of Alphans, making them think that they had been replaced by drop-outs from the Justice League of Europe circa (1990), and that their past-selves had re-materialised in Marvel Reality.


Seng, old man, you read my mind... :D

[DelBubs]

I still think Flashback has to die, with him dying a noble death, all temporal anomalies attributable to him would be erased. As for the vol 3 characters, get shot of them all apart from Zuzha and Nemesis (I know she's not really vol 3, but you get the idea). MML could go back to frightening children, Centennial could resume his very promising coma and Yukon Jack can die a nasty and horrible death with no meaning.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Hiya Seng, I think the reference to criminally insane ties into the 'Clinic for Maladjusted Supertypes' which is where Maddy met Bochs, even though they hadn't met until AF#15. I tend to ignore that whole clinic stuff.

DelBubs is correct and accurate.

AF# 46, page 16, panel 5 - {Bill Mantlo, writer credited}

Puck's thought balloon: "...and thus passed over the clinic for Socially Maladjusted Super-beings where I, and Mr. Jeffries--and Box--were tested." [The Mantlo version of Puck went out of its way to emphasize how hopelessly non-super he was, even though he supposedly had Raazor inside of him. Built-in inconsistency by the writer himself]

Puck's thought balloon: "We graduated to Alpha when we were presumably 'cured!' "

same issue, page 19, panel 5 -

Jeffries' word balloon: "Delusions! Paranoia!"

same issue, page 20, panel 1 -

Jeffries' word balloon: "Ya've suffered 'em before, Boxxie--don'tcha remember... ...bein' a fat little paraplegic cursin' the whole world for the loss o' his legs-- --when it was no one's fault but fate's!"

"That's what the doctors at the institution tried ta tell ya...!"

[According to AFV1# 12, James checked Bochs' psych-evaluation himself and listed honorable, admirable traits. So basically what Madison implies (if anyone believes him) is that James MacDonald Hudson didn't have any idea who the people he's recruited/banded together really are]

[Garry/Al-Fan]

....Super-secret Dept. H must be pulling the wool over a lot of high-level eyes to do all the stuff that's been done. Oh, BTW, Puck is also supposed to have been in some kind of institute for the Criminally Insane. As I said before, The Prime Minister and the Minister of Defense must be so pleased that murderers and lunatics are defending Canada.


Actually, it's not uncommon for government agencies to recruit/draft criminals, the criminally unstable and the likes, esp in covert/black ops settings (which DH and Alpha were originally meant to be).

Unfortunately, I can't just take your word for this. Can you provide examples of a government, specifically the Canadian government, actually recruiting/drafting "criminals, the criminally unstable and the likes," especially for a high-profile, overt team like Alpha Flight?

AF# 35, page 5, panel 3 - {Bill Mantlo, writer credited}

Heather's thought balloon: "Mac was head of Dept. H--Canada's super-hero development group. He had a lot of prospects--but no single, dramatic success. He needed a hit--so he made one."

AFV1# 14, page 11, panel 2 - {John Byrne, writer credited}

Judd's word balloon: "At ease, blue boy. Save the heroics for when you need 'em. I'm Puck, of Alpha Flight. I've got G-niner clearance with all national police forces."

If I have to go through my collection and catalog every public appearance of Alpha Flight, I will. Alpha Flight is not a covert strike force. It couldn't be if its true mission is to protect Canada. How are they going to do that without ever being seen?

[cmdrkoenig67]

I still think Flashback has to die, with him dying a noble death, all temporal anomalies attributable to him would be erased. As for the vol 3 characters, get shot of them all apart from Zuzha and Nemesis (I know she's not really vol 3, but you get the idea). MML could go back to frightening children, Centennial could resume his very promising coma and Yukon Jack can die a nasty and horrible death with no meaning.

LOL! Del...you read my mind!

Dana

[DelBubs]

[According to AFV1# 12, James checked Bochs' psych-evaluation himself and listed honorable, admirable traits. So basically what Madison implies (if anyone believes him) is that James MacDonald Hudson didn't have any idea who the people he's recruited/banded together really are]

If you look at all this from one viewpoint, there would seem to be a trend for the Canadian gov to use people with slightly questionable characterisitics. Those who formed the original Omega Flight would seem to have traits that made them suceptable to mild influences, otherwise Bochs should have been turned as well. Walt himself was coherced into altering Wildchilds profile so he could join H. The gov sponsored Gamma Flight that went to arrest Alpha had two members who were indirectly responsible for the death of Mac and a leader who was known as an avenging angel who would/had killed.

We then have Wolverine, certain members of Weapon Prime, the feral Goblyn... Quite a list. Kinda makes a person wish for a self supporting Alpha working independently of the gov.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

If you look at all this from one viewpoint, there would seem to be a trend for the Canadian gov to use people with slightly questionable characterisitics. [Okay, Jean-Paul (a former terrorist), even Judd (a self-confessed murderer), have slightly questionable characteristics, but the way Walter was originally presented (an overly-competetive, impulsive powerhouse) doesn't quite fit with the "slightly questionable characteristics" explanation, neither does Michael. Jeanne-Marie's split personality did not reveal itself until Aurora was firmly established within Alpha Flight; Marrina's problem didn't show up on standard psych-evaluations, but she's an alien and Bochs is not; Snowbird is a demi-goddess, and her problems are distinctly her own. Moreover, many members of Alpha Flight had the "influencer" implants, just like the members of Omega Flight but they did not turn: Judd and Jean-Paul] Those who formed the original Omega Flight would seem to have traits that made them suceptable to mild influences, otherwise Bochs should have been turned as well. [Alec Thorne was playing chess to make a living and Roger was doing his engineering thing, which must have been very successful because he had an apartment and a well-furnished private laboratory/workshop; we did not see what the others did prior to being enthralled by the influencer, but I would agree that WildChild had serious issues, regardless] Walt himself was coherced into altering Wildchilds profile so he could join H. The gov sponsored Gamma Flight that went to arrest Alpha had two members who were indirectly responsible for the death of Mac and a leader who was known as an avenging angel who would/had killed. [FULL DISCLOSURE: If this came after the Mantlo era, I'm not familiar with it; it would be hard to accept that it truly happened, even if I were.]

We then have Wolverine, certain members of Weapon Prime, the feral Goblyn...[Goblyn was originally a Deranger, working for Bedlam, a convict that James knowingly and purposely chose to be a "super-hero," if anyone believes that. I don't.] Quite a list. Kinda makes a person wish for a self supporting Alpha working independently of the gov. My sentiments, exactly.

[DelBubs]

The implants the first Alphans had were originally intended as locator beacons (AF vol 1 #91-93?) they are not the same thing as the influence exerted by Roxxons machine on begruntled members of Dept H. This would suggest that they were not the stuff of heroes to begin with (Alec Thorne AF Special #1)

If we take Alpha as they were first presented, I can see that there would be no reason to question the characters of each member, but if we go into the first series, reality has to be realised by the content of Byrnes work. Each character becomes a person, therefore questionable. Taking that further, and we are asked to go there by Byrnes writing, why aren't future members of Alpha vetted by the lessons learnt from the savagery of Sasquatch and the duplicate personnas of Aurora, not to mention all the other psychosis presented from Alpha members.

Either bad writing(That didn't attempt to follow Byrnes work) or a sense of worth (that encouraged a writer to stamp his own ideas on Alpha) meant that we had to suffer bastardisations of the original idea and thats why each vol since 1 has gone tits up.

As regard Sas hiding the psych profile of Wildchild, it was alluded too in AF#110-117 ish. Close as I can get, Wildchild goes after Wyre and AF go after Wildchild, Walt has a flashback about hiding the profile.

[cmdrkoenig67]

color=darkred][Okay, Jean-Paul (a former terrorist), even Judd (a self-confessed murderer), have slightly questionable characteristics, but the way Walter was originally presented (an overly-competetive, impulsive powerhouse) doesn't quite fit with the "slightly questionable characteristics" explanation, neither does Michael. Jeanne-Marie's split personality did not reveal itself until Aurora was firmly established within Alpha Flight; Marrina's problem didn't show up on standard psych-evaluations, but she's an alien and Bochs is not; Snowbird is a demi-goddess, and her problems are distinctly her own. Moreover, many members of Alpha Flight had the "influencer" implants, just like the members of Omega Flight but they did not turn: Judd and Jean-Paul][/color]

Garry....You mentioned the AF/OF members having the "influencer" implant...I think you're confusing the AF signal implant with Delphine Courtney's "influencer"(a device which was never explained)...Not to mention there is no way that Diamond Lil could have had an implant with her indestructible skin/aura/whatever it is.

The influencer was not a device implanted in the Beta/Gamma members(it may have been a built-in device that Delphine had)..."she" said(and I'm paraphrasing, since I don't have the issue in front of me) that it was encouraging/raising the Beta and Gamma members anger/frustration over losing their places in Dept H and allowing her to "influence" them to turn against James Hudson and AF.

Yes...The AF signal implant was placed in almost all the Flight-members in Dept H, indicated by the multitude of signal call cards Heather came across in Mac's office in issue one of Vol 1(those who did not have the implant...Snowbird, Shaman(?), Mac, Marrina and possibly Diamond Lil with her impenetrable skin. Sasquatch doesn't have one currently since he's not in his original body and Northstar had his removed much later)...I seem to recall(I could be wrong) it was indicated in a later story that the implant could be used to "control" members of AF, if necessary....but I'm not sure who wrote that story and what issue it appeared in.

Dana

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Garry....You mentioned the AF/OF members having the "influencer" implant...I think you're confusing the AF signal implant with Delphine Courtney's "influencer" (a device which was never explained)...and Diamond Lil but not on Roger? I stand by the "influencer implant" designation] Not to mention there is no way that Diamond Lil could have had an implant with her indestructible skin/aura/whatever it is. [I agree with this]

The influencer was not a device implanted in the Beta/Gamma members(it may have been a built-in device that Delphine had)..."she" said(and I'm paraphrasing, since I don't have the issue in front of me) that it was encouraging/raising the Beta and Gamma members anger/frustration over losing their places in Dept H and allowing her to "influence" them to turn against James Hudson and AF. [I stand by the "influencer implant" designation; at the time the Beta/Gamma's were recruited and turned, both Northstar and Judd still had their implants. I know that Northstar got rid of his (Marvel Fanfare with Scourge), but that was after the first Omega Flight appearance.]

Yes...The AF signal implant was placed in almost all the Flight-members in Dept H, indicated by the multitude of signal call cards Heather came across in Mac's office in issue one of Vol 1 (those who did not have the implant...Snowbird, Shaman(?), Mac, Marrina and possibly Diamond Lil with her impenetrable skin. [no disagreement from me here] Sasquatch doesn't have one currently since he's not in his original body and Northstar had his removed much later)...I seem to recall (I could be wrong) it was indicated in a later story that the implant could be used to "control" members of AF, if necessary....but I'm not sure who wrote that story and what issue it appeared in. [This would be nice to see, directly, so I can better understand what Alpha Flight is really about]

Dana

The assertion that AF was originally intended to be a black-ops group is at the heart of this. If it was, then examples should/could be provided to support this assertion, and somebody should be able to do this. Weapon Alpha's first mission was across the border into the U.S., a necessarily covert mission because no government would want to take responsibility for infiltrating another country to retrieve property grafted to a human being. If Hudson was spotted or detained, the Canadian government would probably deny any involvement in the whole thing, leaving Hudson to take the fall by himself. This is as much political cowardice as it is black-ops operation. Suppose Hudson was successful and brought Wolverine back? The X-Men (or whoever he was with in the states) wouldn't wonder what happened to him? This wouldn't even make "comic book" sense.

It was also asserted that the Canadian government intentially, deliberately actively however you want to put it recruits criminals, the criminally insane to be part of Dept. H/Alpha Flight/"super-heroes" and that original members of Alpha Flight had such questionable characteristics that they could easily be lumped into the criminal/criminally insane category. I know that AF is composed of complex people, that's how it became my favorite group. But Jean-Paul and Judd are the only ones with criminal pasts.

Let's assume that there was no doctor-patient violation concerning Madison Jeffries knowing what doctors' said about Bochs' condition [AF# 46, page 19, panel 1]. Why would the doctors tell another patient about Bochs' mental problems but not Hudson, The Minister of Defense, or the Prime Minister? This does not use even "comic book" logic or common sense.

Neither overly hating nor overly loving certain creators' rendition of AF will help anyone truly understand what's really happened in the series. Sure, jumble everything up and anything is possible, but it still won't make much sense. That's the difference between the people who were trying to do a decent AF series and the people who were trying to transform it into The Canadian X-Men.

[HappyCanuck]

Snowbird, Shaman(?), Mac, Marrina and possibly Diamond Lil with her impenetrable skin.

Actually, in AF.1.92 (I think, as I don't have the necessary energy to jump up and check the actual issue - the one where Mac thinks back to the early days), it shows that at least all of the original core Alpha flight (tho Im not sure on Mac) had the implant. It's safe to assume why Lil didn't, but does anyone know why Marrina's was in her necklace?? was there any reason why she COULDN'T have it implanted??


Sasquatch doesn't have one currently since he's not in his original body and Northstar had his removed much later)...I seem to recall (I could be wrong) it was indicated in a later story that the implant could be used to "control" members of AF, if necessary....but I'm not sure who wrote that story and what issue it appeared in.

As I said, it was in AF.1.92 ("Compromising Positions", written by Fabian Nicieza, Art by Dan Reed and Richard Bennett) - I broke down and walked the five feet to my bookshelf :P. Chasen wanted to implant a 'fail-safe' mechanism in the various flights so that they could be 'programmed' exactly as Dept. H wanted them to be. Mac found out, caused a riot (which thus ended Chasen's career as liason with Alpha - a story I'd like to see resolved, I doubt he'd be THAT ready tgo out.), and Clarke (who's ALWAYS respectable, naturally :roll: ) promised Mac it would ONLY be used for communications. So Garry's idea that it's an influencer isn't necessarily far from the truth!

Oh and Sasquatch woudl probably have the chip, since, according to the story, everyone had it, including Snowbird and Shaman - tho I'm not sure if the 'metamorph' failsafe would be in effect (many metamorphs, ie: Mystique, can get foreign bodies out of theirs by shifting their molecules around).


The assertion that AF was originally intended to be a black-ops group is at the heart of this. If it was, then examples should/could be provided to support this assertion, and somebody should be able to do this.

Actually, Byrne said that Department H - not necessarily Alpha, mind - was top secret in AF.1.1.


Weapon Alpha's first mission was across the border into the U.S., a necessarily covert mission because no government would want to take responsibility for infiltrating another country to retrieve property grafted to a human being. If Hudson was spotted or detained, the Canadian government would probably deny any involvement in the whole thing, leaving Hudson to take the fall by himself.

This actually opens itself to an interesting question, tho: how the hell does anyone wearing what amounts to a stylised Canadian flag do ANYTHING 'covert'?? it's not like our flag makes the best of camoflague! I mean, if you wanted to send a covert agent into one of the more paranoid countries on the planet, why the hell would you dress him up in red and white?? Why not the plain black suits they used in AF 102/3 when they illegally went up against Diablo?


It was also asserted that the Canadian government intentially, deliberately actively however you want to put it recruits criminals, the criminally insane to be part of Dept. H/Alpha Flight/"super-heroes" and that original members of Alpha Flight had such questionable characteristics that they could easily be lumped into the criminal/criminally insane category. I know that AF is composed of complex people, that's how it became my favorite group. But Jean-Paul and Judd are the only ones with criminal pasts.

as true as that last line may be, it's not just them that could be considered a 'liability'. Jeanne-Marie is a multiple personality - one which possessed, at first release, a borderline schizophrenic quality, the other who tried to kill herself several times; Walter, a brilliant biophysist who possesses a VERY strong competitive streak as well as an obstinance to prove himself right. I mean this is a man who WILLINGLY subjected himself to VERY hazardous radiation in order to reproduce an accident that produced a rage-filled behemoth-monster, instead opening himself to one of the GREAT BEASTS THEMSELVES. There's no way that could have gone good; Snowbird, who's NEVER hidden the fact that she's using Alpha Flight as means to an end to 'win the war' against the Great Beasts; Marrina's an alien, something the government can't understand, let alone begin to believe they could control, so in their eyes, is a HUGE liability; and Michael's a mystic. from their point of view, what's to prevent him from snapping and magically taking out a small city with his 'spirits'? See, it's not just the known criminals you have to worry about - in fact, there the only RELIABLE ones on the team, since you KNOW what they might be willing to do, but the ones WITHOUT the record!


Let's assume that there was no doctor-patient violation concerning Madison Jeffries knowing what doctors' said about Bochs' condition [AF# 46, page 19, panel 1]. Why would the doctors tell another patient about Bochs' mental problems but not Hudson, The Minister of Defense, or the Prime Minister? This does not use even "comic book" logic or common sense.

Mac prolly DID know, but in that regard he seems to be a bit of bleeding heart to the pathologically malaligned. The Minister of Defense probably thought it was a good idea, since in his mind these people were mostly cannonfodder to begin with - big weapons that don't cause a billion dollars to build, a military beaurocrat's wetdream - and as for the PM, like many world leaders in such matter, was probably left in the dark. 'Plausible deniability' and all that.


Neither overly hating nor overly loving certain creators' rendition of AF will help anyone truly understand what's really happened in the series. Sure, jumble everything up and anything is possible, but it still won't make much sense. That's the difference between the people who were trying to do a decent AF series and the people who were trying to transform it into The Canadian X-Men.

Now THAT I can agree with!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Actually, in AF.1.92 (I think, as I don't have the necessary energy to jump up and check the actual issue -...but does anyone know why Marrina's was in her necklace?? was there any reason why she COULDN'T have it implanted??
Although she looked human, she is an alien. Do you know enough about her alien physiology to be nearly 100% sure that the operation would be a success? G/A-F


Sasquatch doesn't have one currently since he's not in his original body and Northstar had his removed much later)...I seem to recall (I could be wrong) it was indicated in a later story that the implant could be used to "control" members of AF, if necessary....but I'm not sure who wrote that story and what issue it appeared in.

As I said, it was in AF.1.92 ("Compromising Positions", written by Fabian Nicieza, Art by Dan Reed and Richard Bennett) - I broke down and walked the five feet to my bookshelf :P. Chasen wanted to implant a 'fail-safe' mechanism in the various flights so that they could be 'programmed' exactly as Dept. H wanted them to be. Mac found out, caused a riot (which thus ended Chasen's career as liason with Alpha - a story I'd like to see resolved, I doubt he'd be THAT ready tgo out.), and Clarke (who's ALWAYS respectable, naturally :roll: ) promised Mac it would ONLY be used for communications. So Garry's idea that it's an influencer isn't necessarily far from the truth!

Oh and Sasquatch would probably have the chip, since, according to the story, everyone had it, including Snowbird and Shaman - tho I'm not sure if the 'metamorph' failsafe would be in effect (many metamorphs, ie: Mystique, can get foreign bodies out of theirs by shifting their molecules around).


The assertion that AF was originally intended to be a black-ops group is at the heart of this. If it was, then examples should/could be provided to support this assertion, and somebody should be able to do this.

Actually, Byrne said that Department H - not necessarily Alpha, mind - was top secret in AF.1.1. and[/u] Alpha Flight; moreover, Dept. H/Alpha Flight had a big public meeting with PM Mulroney (sp) in the 90's]


Weapon Alpha's first mission was across the border into the U.S., a necessarily covert mission because no government would want to take responsibility for infiltrating another country to retrieve property grafted to a human being. If Hudson was spotted or detained, the Canadian government would probably deny any involvement in the whole thing, leaving Hudson to take the fall by himself.

This actually opens itself to an interesting question, tho: how the hell does anyone wearing what amounts to a stylised Canadian flag do ANYTHING 'covert'?? it's not like our flag makes the best of camoflague! I mean, if you wanted to send a covert agent into one of the more paranoid countries on the planet, why the hell would you dress him up in red and white?? [Could it be that somebody in Dept. H was trying to set him up? Naw, that's crazy.]


It was also asserted that the Canadian government intent[b]ionally, deliberately actively however you want to put it recruits criminals, the criminally insane to be part of Dept. H/Alpha Flight/"super-heroes" and that original members of Alpha Flight had such questionable characteristics that they could easily be lumped into the criminal/criminally insane category. I know that AF is composed of complex people, that's how it became my favorite group. But Jean-Paul and Judd are the only ones with criminal pasts.

as true as that last line may be, it's not just them that could be considered a 'liability' [you did not say liability initially; you said criminal/criminally "unstable" (I said "criminally insane")]. Jeanne-Marie is a multiple personality - one which possessed, at first release, a borderline schizophrenic quality, the other who tried to kill herself several times; [Logan brought her to Hudson] Walter, a brilliant biophysist who possesses a VERY strong competitive streak as well as an obstinance to prove himself right. I mean this is a man who WILLINGLY subjected himself to VERY hazardous radiation in order to reproduce an accident that produced a rage-filled behemoth-monster, instead opening himself to one of the GREAT BEASTS THEMSELVES. There's no way that could have gone good [I agree; does this dubious scientific experiment make him a criminal/criminally "unstable"/"insane"?];Snowbird, who's NEVER hidden the fact that she's using Alpha Flight as means to an end to 'win the war' against the Great Beasts [this is not true; fighting the X-Men had nothing to do with winning the war against the Great Beasts; fighting Egg-Head and Porcupine had nothing to do with winning the war against the Great Beasts; fighting Omega Flight had nothing to do with winning the war against the Great Beasts; Snowbird only used her power to compel on Northstar]; Marrina's an alien, something the government can't understand, let alone begin to believe they could control, so in their eyes, is a HUGE liability; and Michael's a mystic. from their point of view, what's to prevent him from snapping and magically taking out a small city with his 'spirits'? See, it's not just the known criminals you have to worry about - in fact, there the only RELIABLE ones on the team, since you KNOW what they might be willing to do, but the ones WITHOUT the record! [The most glaring fault in this argument: Bedlam. Snowbird is dedicated to protecting the Earthly realm; Northstar was dedicated to looking out for Aurora; Puck is dedicated to being a member of Alpha Flight; Walter likes challenges big enough for Sasquatch; Shaman, everybody should be afraid of a former surgeon/mystic.]

Let's assume that there was no doctor-patient violation concerning Madison Jeffries knowing what doctors' said about Bochs' condition [AF# 46, page 19, panel 1]. Why would the doctors tell another patient about Bochs' mental problems but not Hudson, The Minister of Defense, or the Prime Minister? This does not use even "comic book" logic or common sense.

Mac prolly DID know [that's not what AFV1# 12 says---unless James was so scared he just made it up], but in that regard he seems to be a bit of bleeding heart to the pathologically malaligned [James must either be naive or dense]. The Minister of Defense probably thought it was a good idea, since in his mind these people were mostly cannonfodder to begin with - big weapons that don't cause a billion dollars to build [the adamantium put into Logan cost the Canadian government so much that they sent Hudson into the U.S. to get Wolverine back], a military beaurocrat's wetdream - and as for the PM, like many world leaders in such matter, was probably left in the dark. 'Plausible deniability' and all that.


Reporter: "Dr. Hudson, is it true that taxpayer money has been spent to
create Convicted-Killer Man?"

Dr. Hudson: "No comment."

Reporter: "Mr. Defense Minister, did you know that Dept. H is sitting on a nuclear power plant?"

Defense Minister: "No comment."

Reporter: "Will you have better control over Gobyln, Nemesis, and WildChild than you do over Vindicator, Sasquatch, and Snowbird?"

DM: "I said, 'No comment.' "

Reporter: "Mr. Prime Minister, how does capturing, branding, and brainwashing children like Ghost Girl help you in your campaign for reelection?"

PM: "No comment."
Neither overly hating nor overly loving certain creators' rendition of AF will help anyone truly understand what's really happened in the series. Sure, jumble everything up and anything is possible, but it still won't make much sense. That's the difference between the people who were trying to do a decent AF series and the people who were trying to transform it into The Canadian X-Men.

Now THAT I can agree with!

[cmdrkoenig67]

I still believe that Snowbird did not have an implant(I could be wrong)...I'll have to reread my Byrne AF to be sure, but I think it was explained there.
I'm not as sure about Shaman.

I also believe that Roger Bochs was unaffected by the "Influencer" because he held no malice toward Mac or AF(that too was explained in Byrne's run). Jaxon and Courtney may have found their Omega Flight recruits by tracing the implants in those members, But they may have also found them via Roxxon's resources.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Okay....Issue #92 of Vol. 1 states that the biochip implant was created by Roxxon(which is probably how Delphine found the future members of Omega Flight...if they have/had biochips). It is also revealed in that issue that Mac finds out that the chip can be used for "biofunction sensory systems manipulation", Which really makes me wonder why on earth Mac would consider working for Roxxon in issue #6 of Vol. 1...if he knows they're a dirty company.

Uncanny X-men issue #120 seems to indicates that all the original members of AF can be "called" by biochips...I've yet to find anything to indicate that Snowbird does not have a biochip. I wasn't sure, but I had thought I had read something about it in AF, Vol 1. I must be wrong about her.

Dana :D

[syvalois]

Okay....Issue #92 of Vol. 1 [....]

Dana :D

issue #92 vol 1, you said it... just forget about it, they where doing crap at that time... :shock:

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Okay....Issue #92 of Vol. 1 states that the biochip implant was created by Roxxon(which is probably how Delphine found the future members of Omega Flight...if they have/had biochips). It is also revealed in that issue that Mac finds out that the chip can be used for "biofunction sensory systems manipulation", Which really makes me wonder why on earth Mac would consider working for Roxxon in issue #6 of Vol. 1...if he knows they're a dirty company.

Uncanny X-men issue #120 seems to indicates that all the original members of AF can be "called" by biochips...I've yet to find anything to indicate that Snowbird does not have a biochip. I wasn't sure, but I had thought I had read something about it in AF, Vol 1. I must be wrong about her.

Dana :D

You're not wrong about Snowbird and Shaman. I'm at the library, not at home, but I will verify it when I get back home. Neither Michael nor Narya needed the signal that Heather used to summon Alpha Flight and it was stated in AFV1# 1.

It would make sense, too. If James knew better than to have a locator/influencer implant put into an alien, he probably had the good sense not to try to put one in a demi-goddess. A shape-shifting demi-goddess. As for Michael, this would have been an appropriate time when his former prideful self reared its head: who would he let operate on him? No one.

[Le Messor]

Snowbird -never- had a chip. Not in her head, not on her shoulder, not with fish. (I'm not sure about that last one.)
I can't remember the #, but she did say so--and it ties in to #12: "I must not bleed!" How can you operate on somebody when making them bleed causes... Something. Except in #6.

I seem to remember Sas's actually going off some time, a ping behind his ear. Or was that Puck?

It's occurred to me that there's a surprisingly small number of Alphans with the chip.

- Le Messor
"... a small piece of an asteroid that had been floating around in the Big Empty for a length of time that had more zeroes in it than even Carl Sagan could imagine."
-- Simon Hawke, The Reluctant Sorcerer

[cmdrkoenig67]

Puck, Sasquatch(in his original body), Northstar and Aurora all had the chip, right? Marrina had her necklace. Did Mac have one?

Dana

[rplass]

The most prominent mention of the chip implants can be found in Marvel Fanfare #28, published Sep 1986:

On p19, Aurora asks Heather, "Why didn't every member receive an implant, Vindicator?

Snowbird answers, "In my case it was impossible! As a half-breed child of the gods, I cannot be allowed to bleed!"

Heather explains further, "Marinna's [sic] amulet served the same purpose as the implant! Shaman had mystical senses that alerted him in times of need! I became a member later, like Box!"

Alpha Flight uses Northstar's chip implant to track him during the story, but bizarrely, he doesn't seem to know that he even has one. In the 1st panel of p20, he thinks to himself in a thought bubble, "Alpha [Flight] obviously has some means of tracking me!"

Northstar must have figured it out at some point because at the end of the issue, he arranges with his doctors to have his implant removed.

So the list of recipients of the original Dept H microchip implant is:

Mac (probably not)
Heather NO
Shaman NO
Snowbird NO
Sasquatch YES
Aurora YES
Northstar YES (removed)
Puck YES
Marrina NO
+ anyone else after that NO

Love,
rplass

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...instead of just relying on "the Byrne version."

AFV1# 1, page 27, panel 2 - {John Byrne, writer credited}

James' thought balloon: "And...yes, that's Snowbird in the midst of that swirling black cloud. I'm not sure how she got here, but she definitely looks like she needs help..."

same issue, page 37, panel 1 -

Michael's word balloon: "Anne's right. She and I sensed this menace--she as Snowbird--without Heather's emergency signal. But alone we could not have defeated Tundra."

So Northstar had doctors who removed the locator/influencer implant. Yet, Northstar said that Scramble was the only doctor who could help him when he got "sick," even though Scramble's cures were suspect, at best. I wonder why Jean-Paul didn't even consider these other doctors?

The folks who are having a hard time accepting Scott Lobdell's volume three version of Alpha Flight now know how some of us older AF fans feel about having to accept The Mantlo version of the group. You don't like it, it completely ignores what Seagle did, and you don't want it to be a part of AF continuity.

Don't know if this will put it into perspective, but here is something Bill Mantlo wrote in AF# 66, page 7, panel 4 -

Whitman Knapp's word balloon: "Not that it matters. Now, I've realized a profound truth--and it seems as though all the good times, all the bad times--never really happened! It made an interesting story, but that's all."

[sengsterooney]

The folks who are having a hard time accepting Scott Lobdell's volume three version of Alpha Flight now know how some of us older AF fans feel about having to accept The Mantlo version of the group. You don't like it, it completely ignores what Seagle did, and you don't want it to be a part of AF continuity.

Don't know if this will put it into perspective, but here is something Bill Mantlo wrote in AF# 66, page 7, panel 4 -

Whitman Knapp's word balloon: "Not that it matters. Now, I've realized a profound truth--and it seems as though all the good times, all the bad times--never really happened! It made an interesting story, but that's all."

That's a brilliant quote, and the reference to Knapp is from an issue where, ostensibly, the Dreamqueen makes Knapp realise that he's a fictitious character in a comic. A bit of postmodernist angst from Mantlo. :-)

I was a long time fan of AF from the Byrne days and it was crushing to see Mantlo slowly dismantle the team that Byrne had built and which fans loved. Thank goodness for selective memory!

[cmdrkoenig67]

The folks who are having a hard time accepting Scott Lobdell's volume three version of Alpha Flight now know how some of us older AF fans feel about having to accept The Mantlo version of the group. You don't like it, it completely ignores what Seagle did, and you don't want it to be a part of AF continuity.

Don't know if this will put it into perspective, but here is something Bill Mantlo wrote in AF# 66, page 7, panel 4 -

Whitman Knapp's word balloon: "Not that it matters. Now, I've realized a profound truth--and it seems as though all the good times, all the bad times--never really happened! It made an interesting story, but that's all."

That's a brilliant quote, and the reference to Knapp is from an issue where, ostensibly, the Dreamqueen makes Knapp realise that he's a fictitious character in a comic. A bit of postmodernist angst from Mantlo. :-)

I was a long time fan of AF from the Byrne days and it was crushing to see Mantlo slowly dismantle the team that Byrne had built and which fans loved. Thank goodness for selective memory!

I hear you, Sengsterooney...Selective memory is a beautiful thing(especially when a writer chooses to ignore history's worst moments...i.e. other writer's flubs and really bad story ideas).

Dana :D

P.S. Thanks for posting that, Garry.

[Le Messor]

... now know how some of us older AF fans feel about having to accept The Mantlo version of the group. You don't like it, it completely ignores what Seagle did, and you don't want it to be a part of AF continuity.

Actually, that's kind of how I feel about what Seagle did as well...
{nemesis}

- le Messor
"... Caymann released a horrible scream into the night air, a painful, deafening and terrifying roar that sounded like a lion whose heart was impaled."
-- Derek Van Arman

[kozzi24]

From memory, the chips were originally only given to members graduated to Alpha, as a signal device. Heather knew Puck and Marrina had the signal devices because their cards were trimmed gold for Alpha. The more sinister applications came later, particulatly FANFARE #28.
It is possible that the members seen in AF Special DO have the chips: Stitch, Sean Benard, and Smart Alec (who is now dead, so does it matter?)
Shaman and Snowbird could sense when they were needed; Mac would have had a signalling device in his tech suit.
Auropra and Puck would be the only remaining member who definitely have the chip. Sasquatch may no longer have it because his body that contained the chip was destroyed in AF #24.

Back to the start of the thread...isn't it very real-world likely that someone gaining powers through mutation or other means might have emotional and psychological problems adjusting to the powers, and perhaps, if self-responsible to some extent, might check themselves into an institution to learn how to cope?

Puck checks himself in, later volunteers for Dept. H/Alpha, mentions the guy he met at the institution who could manipulate metal/non-organic matter. At the same time group sessions, Boches also learned of Jeffries' abilities, tho they never discussed them. Boshes himself probably ranted about what the doctors told him, to Jeffries. In his earliest appearances, Madison was a man of few words, so he probably had not discussed his powers with Boches. Puck would have known of Jeffries as a potential AF recruit, leading Mac to Jeffries. He found Boshes instead, who was by that point coping with the loss of his legs by building a robot able to provide him locomotion. Mac takes Boshes in, but Boshes never makes Alpha BECAUSE od his adjustment problems to the loss of his legs. Mac didn't intentionally recruit from the looney bins, but that was where he found two members from the referral of one member. Make sense?

Aurora's MPD was so complete as to be nearly undetectable, so Mac probably did not learn of that problem until after she was Alpha.

EVERYONE had personality flaws and problems, and Mac walked some very thin wires to form a team that could handle what it had to. Let's not forget that homosexuality was once listed in DSM as a psychological "problem" so a team formed earlier would have excluded him too. Sasquatch is essentially a competitive bully...heroic? there. None of these characters were perfect people, except for Mac, which is why he does seem to bore a lot of readers.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

From memory, the chips were originally only given to members graduated to Alpha, as a signal device. Heather knew Puck and Marrina had the signal devices because their cards were trimmed gold for Alpha. The more sinister applications came later, particularly FANFARE #28.
It is possible that the members seen in AF Special DO have the chips: Stitch, Sean Benard, and Smart Alec (who is now dead, so does it matter?)
AF Special[/u], which is pretty good, something caused Smart Alec to have difficulty thinking. Maybe he froze up or maybe something else was going on? My guess is a combination of the two] Shaman and Snowbird could sense when they were needed; Mac would have had a signalling device in his tech suit. [This makes sense, too.]
Aurora and Puck would be the only remaining member who definitely have the chip. Sasquatch may no longer have it because his body that contained the chip was destroyed in AF #24.

...isn't it very real-world likely that someone gaining powers through mutation or other means might have emotional and psychological problems adjusting to the powers, and perhaps, if self-responsible to some extent, might check themselves into an institution to learn how to cope?

Why can't we just say that Mantlo wrote them [i]his way, other writers wrote them their way, and we try not to do for the creators/editors/publisher what they themselves didn't bother much with: figuring a plausible way to incorporate the differing versions. I think MARVEL expects the fans to try and pull all of this stuff together, but I don't think they spend much time making the Mantlo version fit with the Byrne version, the Seagle version, or the Lobdell version. I'd bet they'd like a version that sold really, really well, though. I'd really like to have an Earth-Mantlo and dump all that continuity there, be done with it, and never regard it again.

Aurora's MPD was so complete as to be nearly undetectable, so Mac probably did not learn of that problem until after she was Alpha. [I agree 100%]

EVERYONE had personality flaws and problems, and Mac walked some very thin wires to form a team that could handle what it had to....None of these characters were perfect people, except for Mac, which is why he does seem to bore a lot of readers.

Mac's compromises and desperation are what make him not such a perfect person, IMO, and when it's not taken to an implausible extreme it also makes him not boring.

[Le Messor]

[quote=kozzi24]Aurora's MPD was so complete as to be nearly undetectable, so Mac probably did not learn of that problem until after she was Alpha. [I agree 100%]

This was actually said in an issue--a Byrne issue, no less. About #2, or so, I think.

I imagine Mac would not have a chip of any sort. Why would he? In theory (tho' Heather proved this wrong later, I believe it was still the theory behind the chips), he's the one who'll be doing the signalling. I doubt they'd expect him to signal himself.

- Le Messor
"Don's eyelids fell shut with a silent thud."
-- Emil Petaja

[Mokole]

I imagine Mac would not have a chip of any sort.

What, is Mac on a low-sodium or fat-free diet? I admit I rarely have chips but now and again they do me fine. BBQ, Salt and Vinegar, All-Dressed,... :wink:

[kozzi24]

[It could. In the AF Special, which is pretty good, something caused Smart Alec to have difficulty thinking. Maybe he froze up or maybe something else was going on? My guess is a combination of the two]

My taker on Smart Alec was that no matter how smart he was, he thought he was even smarter...and thus better than the "roughnecks and brawlers" on his team. I think he just froze up. Being smart does not necessarily prepare you or lend you the capacity to deal with emotional issues. Pitched battle such as Alec found himself in would certainly qualify as an emotional issue. I think he froze, with no other conditions or variables.

I will always look to rectify latest issues with history. Revisionism on a title such as Alpha that has had such drastic changes and different incarnation will almost always be necessary. My belief is that it is best to keep as much as possible.

And so funny you mention that recursive story. If it had not been Bill Mantlo's last issue of Alpha Flight, it would have been MY last issue of Alpha Flight.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

[...In the AF Special, which is pretty good, something caused Smart Alec to have difficulty thinking. Maybe he froze up or maybe something else was going on? My guess is a combination of the two]

My taker on Smart Alec was that no matter how smart he was, he thought he was even smarter...and thus better than the "roughnecks and brawlers" on his team. I think he just froze up. Being smart does not necessarily prepare you or lend you the capacity to deal with emotional issues. Pitched battle such as Alec found himself in would certainly qualify as an emotional issue. I think he froze, with no other conditions or variables...

You're right. There's nothing to indicate anything other than Smart Alec just froze.

[rplass]

1. This is Puck in his old AF costume. Could this then mean that this is the Puck from the 80s as opposed to the Puck in space? Or perhaps Marvel writers have decided to totally ignore Lobdell's run of vol 3 (could be a good thing>)


Puck also mentions that he's got, "No team"... the exact dialogue is, "Me? I'm nothin'. No team, no job...no nothin'. People I used to consider my friends won't even acknowledge me."

It's not clear exactly WHEN this story takes place. If that's the 80s Puck from the time-displaced Alpha Flight from v3 that we saw barbecuing in the snow in issue #12 of v3, that means that he quit Alpha Flight between the end of v3 and this issue. Is it possible that this issue takes place BEFORE he joined Alpha Flight in issue #1 of v1? Could it be between v1 and v2, BEFORE he was recruited into Dept H. by the Epsilon Guards in issue #1 of v2? It has to be during some time when Alpha Flight was disbanded. Any guesses?

Love,
rplass

[-K-M-]

See I wasn't sure if that took place after the events of New Avengers. I still havn't read that issue with Puck yet, so I can't give further insight.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Rumor has it that a promo poster for Marvel's next cross-over event called "Who's Side Are You On"(or something like that)....has Guardian(Mac) and Puck on it. Does this mean that the team doesn't die in New Avengers? Maybe they are being renamed Avengers North...or something?

Dana :?

[-K-M-]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/wsayo6cs.gif

Your guess is good as mine

[Ben]

Puck and Guardian are indeed on that! First people infact. Very cool

Ben

[-K-M-]

I have no idea what this epic is about, but at least we know 2 members survive. Still worried about the rest.

[Mokole]

I wonder if Marvel realizes that life-altering events shouldn't happen every 8 months. "Whose Side are You On" likely refers to a SHIELD-based crossover in which new ground rules are applied and the story goes to who's going to apply the rules and who's going to be angry about it.

Just a guess.

Come on Alpha Flight in 2006!!

[MistressMerr]

From what I hear, you're pretty much right, just replace SHIELD with Illuminati.

[kozzi24]

Whose shoulders is Puck standing on in that poster?

[cmdrkoenig67]

As far as the Puck X-Men Unlimited story goes....I liked it...
SPOILERS
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
it certainly didn't portray Puck as an alcoholic...I don't think you can do that in one issue(with no flashbacks). I have no idea where to place it in chronology...maybe(as somebody suggested) before Alpha Flight re-forms in issue#1 of Vol. 1?

Dana

P.S. Does anyone know who the villain/robot/whatever Wolverine had faced in the lead soty is? I couldn't figure out who or what it was supposed to be...maybe it wasn't supposed to matter?

[Ben]

The impression I got was that this took place pre-V.2. I mean in v.2 #1 he woke up in an alley, pretty down and out. This isn't too far off the mark from that. I'm really not fammilar with the whole "unlimited" thing, but I'm assuming it means outside of regular Marvel time line?

As for who did the number on Wolvie in the first half, I was assuming it was Sabretooth, but looking back now it says "one way trip in his case" meaning whoever it was didn't survive.

Ben

[cmdrkoenig67]

The impression I got was that this took place pre-V.2. I mean in v.2 #1 he woke up in an alley, pretty down and out. This isn't too far off the mark from that. I'm really not fammilar with the whole "unlimited" thing, but I'm assuming it means outside of regular Marvel time line?

meaning they don't have any connection to the regular Marvel universe? I don't think that's the case, at all...Heather wouldn't have had her baby otherwise...she had her in X-Men Unlimited. These are just X-Men solo stories/one shots for the most part....and they mostly have to do with the normal Marvel Universe X-Men characters.

My question is...whose name and number did Logan give to Eugene?...if he already knows the Hudsons(I'm guessing he does, since he has a Puck costume on)...it can't be them. Could it be the number for Prof. X/the X-Men? Why them? That doesn't make any sense...Alcoholics Annonymous, maybe? Maybe there's a boozy super-hero hotline? I don't know.


As for who did the number on Wolvie in the first half, I was assuming it was Sabretooth, but looking back now it says "one way trip in his case" meaning whoever it was didn't survive.

BenC

Whatever/Whoever it was...it was big and metal...it's big metallic corpse was laying next to Wolverine through most of that story.

Dana

[Ben]

I had just figured that was some kinda tank-treaded vehicle remains from the battle. I guessed that there was info in the previous issue as to what happened, but dunno, as I didn't read it.

Ben

[Legerd]

I'm worried it's in current continuity and the reason he has no team is because the Collective wiped AF out and no one replaced them. :cry:

[DelBubs]

In the story is Puck portrayed as someone who has an alcohol problem or just a man drowning his sorrows as a one off?

[Ben]

to me it came off more as a fella down on his luck, an on a bit of a tear. It could be seen as a man with an alcohol problem written by a man who doesn't know what an alcohol problem is actually like.

Ben

[DelBubs]

So hopefully he was just out on a mega piss up, feeling a bit down. He doesn't look to much of a piss head in that pic from New Avengers #16.

[HappyCanuck]

If someone can find a scan of this 'metallic' guy that Wolverine supposedly fought, I'd like to have a look-see...

[Mokole]

I'm worried it's in current continuity and the reason he has no team is because the Collective wiped AF out and no one replaced them. :cry:

I doubt it's in continuity with New Avengers. Seems odd that it even could be.

[Legerd]

I doubt it's in continuity with New Avengers. Seems odd that it even could be.

I haven't seen anything of it except for a couple of advanced pics so I couldn't say one way or the other. However, if you've ever followed any of Wolverine's books, Marvel seems to feel they don't have to match all the various stories to any continuity even though all the books are out at the same time. Wolverine is in the Savage Land with the New Avengers; in Japan in his own title and in New York in X-men. Not to mention the numerous guest appearances he makes, the various one-shots and miniseries. Most of which is happening in the same continuity. That's why I think it could be possible this is as well.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Finally got X-Men Unlimited# 12, and no dumping from me. I liked both stories. Solid book.

[-K-M-]

Finally got X-Men Unlimited# 12, and no dumping from me. I liked both stories. Solid book.

haha, same with me I just got it this week. Yeah it was not bad, but not anything special for me.

[Le Messor]

In theory, it can't be before v1, since they'd never met at the time.

Of course, that's been retconned out; but I'm not sure Puck was somebody Wolverine would've cared about enough to pick up out of the bottle back then. Come to think of it, why is he now? I guess they've kinda developed a working relationship over the years; with Hemmingway, and Alpha, and that guest in Seagle's X-Men... forget I askt.

Unlimited, I'd say, is theoretically continuity, I believe, but it tends to get ignored. And to ignore (or foul up) old continuity: eg: early issue, a bunch of them are lost in a snow storm in the Arctic (? Antarctic?). Storm's there, and tries to control the -whole storm- instead of part of it (as she would've in Claremont's series), and fails (as she wouldn't in Claremont); they then get worried about her and disbelieve her Claremont line about "I'm immune to the weather". "What does that mean, when it rains, she doesn't get wet?"; when her line was "I don't feel extremes of temperature".

*sigh* rambling now...

- Le Messor
From a text book:
"Q: Which was domesticated first, the dog or the cat?
A: The dog (...) Some say cats were domesticated in Egypt five thousand years ago. Others say they haven't been yet."

[rplass]

In a previous post on this thread, I mused about WHEN this issue takes place. The recently released OHOTMU: A-Z Update confirms that it takes place between the disbanding of Alpha Flight in vol. 1 #130 and Puck's recruitment into the new vol. 2 Alpha Flight.

Love,
rplass