In Praise Of Mantlo (Yeah, I Know) [Archive] - AlphaFlight.net

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DelBubs

11-15-2005, 05:09 PM

Legerd

11-15-2005, 05:15 PM

While I like the Dream Queen, I hated Pestilence! Yes, kudos to Mantlo for his historical research, but as for how Pesty got his powers... did you mention something about a barf bag? :-&

cmdrkoenig67

11-15-2005, 05:16 PM

Ben

11-15-2005, 05:20 PM

I would have to agree that he did do some good things. I liked that he made Jeffries a real part of the team, that he put Heather in the suit. Though he messed up many existing characters, I did like most of the characters he created, both good and bad.

Ben

cmdrkoenig67

11-15-2005, 05:24 PM

Oh...I liked that he put Heather in the suit too(hi Ben :D )...it just seemed inevitable, even though John Byrne didn't want to go that route...it just seemed as though it were meant to be. I liked Purple Girl/Persuasion(didn't care for Manikin..and still don't), I liked Madison joining the team too(and becoming Box IV).

Dana

DelBubs

11-15-2005, 05:28 PM

I seem to recall an episode of Star Trek Voyager called 'The 39ers' (or somthing like that). Amy Johnson I believe was found by the crew on another planet in the Delta Quadrant. Now the whole thing was ludicrous of course, but you could suspend reality enough to enjoy the story. I could do this in regards to Pestilence, the gaping holes in his history where the very things that made me to find the character so fascinating. Of course questions would remain, but to me that's part of the attraction, What makes him so malevolent?

He was at one time a human being, now he's become a being of almost pure evil. I would just like to see him explored more as a character, the Nemesis for Alpha that they seem to have lost.

Legerd

11-15-2005, 09:18 PM

He was at one time a human being, now he's become a being of almost pure evil. I would just like to see him explored more as a character, the Nemesis for Alpha that they seem to have lost.

The one bad guy I want to see return would be Smart Alec. Imagine this: Smart Alec's mind survives within a dimension inside the pouch and eventually he finds a body to take over. To survive he studies magic and finds a way back. In his new body AF doesn't recognize him until it's too late. He is out for revenge against Mac and Shaman in particular and AF in general.

JohnnyCanuck

11-16-2005, 03:23 AM

Amy Johnson....wasn't she the Pink Power Ranger???

huh? .... off topic....? ...um.. OK just let me think....

Amy would look really hot with horns like the dream queen.

I hated Pesty but on the other hand I own the page where he's ripping Talisman's tiara off.
Dream Queen is top 2 for my Alpha Villians . Night mare is not.

I started reading AF with #27. So I don't share the same animosity that most have for Mantlo's stories. I kinda took them as they came and cringed at the art. As a fresh comic fan I hadn't developed a sense to all the different styles of art and writing so Mantlo's work was alright. until the betas were involved. I thought they kinda bogged down things a bit. I liked the Pesty back story such as there was. Just never really grew on me after that.

well I've rambled

JC

sengsterooney

11-16-2005, 04:57 AM

Mantlo did create the Dreamqueen but IMO, James Hudnall made her the evil mama b***h that she was. Mantlo's DQ storyline was basically the DQ infecting the dreams/realities of the Alphans so they were living their nightmares (so to speak).

Unlike Del, I wasn't too impressed with Pestilence. Cool powers, but that purple costume was just too 70s disco for me. :-) You'd think he'd go for something more dramatic and death.

As for giving Heather the costume - nice idea but:

(a) it should've taken longer before she got into the suit (seemed too quick after she spent ages during the Byrne run saying that her leading Alpha will be in a different capacity - despite her getting uber powers in the X/AF crossover by Claremont and Smith)

(b) it ruined her character. She went from being a strong character to one who whined all the time, wanting to prove herself and make 'her' AF bigger and better than Mac's. Too much angst, too much self-doubt and none of the strength of character we knew and loved from the Byrne issues.

I recall reading somewhere (perhaps an interview with Hudnall) that one of Mantlo's main aims when he took over Alpha was to replace it with characters he had created for a team that never took off at Marvel. I guess that accounts for the Purple Girl, Manikin and Laura Dean/Goblyn. Uuuuugggghhhhh!

Seng

Le Messor

11-19-2005, 07:35 PM

Okay, one at a time:

DreamQueen is one of my favourite villains -ever-; but then, she appeals to my taste. (I love dreams, and the concepts thereof, even for horror; Freddy Krueger is another of my favourite villains; and she's an unholy cross between him and The Joker.)

I have no feel for Pestilence, and think of him as more of a cypher than a character. Put me down for 'unimpressed'.

Who's Amy Johnson? The woman they found was famous aviator Amelia Earhart. Whose last name I can't spell (but wouldn't it be appropriate if it was Airheart?)

Heather in the suit? Yay to that! But, this is the sound of inevitability.

Mantlo did a couple of good, even great things; and I also like most of his new characters (the others, I just 'meh' away).

- Le Messor
"... and he tossed his head as if he was about to erupt."
-- Robert Jordan, The Dragon Reborn

birdygirl

11-20-2005, 06:41 PM

I do think Mantlo had a couple of good ideas: getting the team all together in one spot (Tamarind Island);and Pestilence (a good idea, except for the disappointing conclusion). And the two Annuals were excellent stories.

As I've mentioned (probably ad nauseum), John Byrne seemed to be in favor of having Snowbird get pregnant, and may possibly have gone ahead with this storyline if he had stayed on the book. I'm guessing that the Pestilence aspect was probably Mantlo's idea, though.

The Dream Queen didn't do anything for me, (sorry). And as for the "new" Alpha Flight with the Purple Girl, Manikin, and Goblyn, they might have worked better as a Beta Flight (in training) team. Why did Mantlo feel it was necessary to kill off several classic members in order to utilize his own creations? This killing spree did nothing to enhance these new characters or Mantlo's reputation on the book, IMO. This may be the earliest example of an "all-new, all-different" Alpha Flight team that didn't really take off.

shaman

11-22-2005, 05:17 AM

Was it just me or did anyone ever think that pestilence kind of looked like
Doc Brown from Back to the Future. http://www.marveldatabase.com/wiki/index.php/Pestilence_I this link is a good example of what I mean, when I look at him I think
"MARTY!!!! YOU GOTTA GO BACK TO THE FUTURE!!!"

HappyCanuck

11-22-2005, 06:28 AM

I noticed that the Pestilence article is a stub for that site. maybe one of us should fill 'er in...

shaman

11-22-2005, 07:16 AM

With the information and permission from DMK, the info could be posted in no time

Barnacle13

11-22-2005, 02:51 PM

DelBubs

11-22-2005, 03:38 PM

Looks like he's even grabbing his flux capacitor!I believe thats illegal in some states.

cmdrkoenig67

11-22-2005, 05:43 PM

LOL!

Dana :lol: :lol: :lol:

Garry/Al-Fan

11-23-2005, 01:12 PM

I'm glad I'm not the only one who can go off on a tangent. :)

These are some of the things about the Mantlo run that get to me:

(1) Scramble touched his helmet, not his head, in the only panel drawn by Mignola where he is supposed to be 'curing' himself. I thought that flesh-on-flesh contact was how Lionel's power worked. If so, since Madison was grabbing Lionel's hands, [(12/05/05) actually went back and looked at it again: Madison has on brown gloves...but, Lionel had turned Madison's head into squid-like mush right before this 'curing' crap was supposed to happen, so still] Madison was susceptible to Lionel's power not the other way around. If this theory holds up, great storytelling by Mantlo and Mignola---even though I hate the character and find it totally ironic that Madison did in the end what he should have done in the Army.

(2) I used to be really ticked about how Snowbird was said to be trying to bind herself to mortality, not humanity, but she was already bound to humanity so it does make sense---if the intention is to make Snowbird vulnerable enough to kill her, which Vindicator did.

(3) Pestilence is a decent enough villain; the story introducing him however---in total---is not that good, although it could have been. Elizabeth is still pissed at her father saving Snowbird instead of her: makes sense. Elizabeth would wait until Snowbird is at her weakest/most vulnerable to exact revenge: makes sense. Dr. Strange's astral image may have been in Elizabeth's power to manipulate (or was a spirit made to look like Dr. Strange's astral image): makes sense/I could accept that. Elizabeth makes the tragic mistake of thinking that Crozier/Pestilence is under her power: excellent plot-twist.
Now the stuff that does not compute, IMO: Crozier, who has been frozen in the ground, immobile, for 136 years, and an unformed baby demi-god who hasn't walked yet, resurrecting all seven Great Beasts - unbelieveable. Pestilence restoring Elizabeth's sanity after taking the tiara off - hard to believe. Allowing Pestilence to escape - laughable.

(4) The whole Judd-Madison-Bochs in the Clinic for the Socially Maladjusted Super-Beings is just too stupid for words, as is

(5) Leaving a depowered Aurora in Asguardian-land. What heroes! What resolve! What a waste of time!

And these are the nicest things I can say about the Mantlo era.

DelBubs

11-24-2005, 02:02 PM

I am probably one of the most vehement anti-Mantlo era Alpha fans and I've always looked at the negative stuff he's done. I still maintain that it was down to what Mantlo did, that Alpha are where they are today. All that said however, there are some things he did that I enjoyed. Dreamqueen, Pestilence, Manikin to name a couple ish. I know that Manikin is a subject of ridicule in some circles and the Amoeba geezer thing was taking it a step to far, but a fella who could become four different heroes? If handled properly he could have become a possible fan fave.

kozzi24

11-29-2005, 12:00 PM

I'm with Del, Mantlo did some absolutely great stuff.

The problem comes that he is better at creating characters than in writing them. I always enjoy his issues of Rom or Hulk, but I can't read them in runs, because his style of characterization ruins it over time. Heather did not go from strong woman to whiney b* because of the suit, but because that's how Mantlo characterizes everybody. It is less apparent in a team book such as Alpha and Micronauts, but in Rom or Hulk, the main characters become this incessently whiney pathetic people. "Oh, poor me, my lost humanity!" issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue after issue.
His Alpha became
Puck, poor me, I love Heather but I'm a dwarf
twins, poor us, we cant touch
Shaman, poor me, I have no confidence
every, poor me poor me poor me

Del pointed out the research and care that went into Pestilence's creation. The man was great at concept. Laurie in the current New X-Men run: Byrne did it first, the daughter of a super-powered manipulator. The concept was great, but it's hard to use a "possessor" as a hero because if she has no limits (such as Karma's two-peaople max) then she becomes impossible to write...there's always a reason her powers don't work. Persuasion also would have worked better if she had been used as fresh eyes through which readers could have looked at the existing team in a positive, even if troubled way, such as Kitty's aversion to Nightcrawler in her early X-Men days.
Manikin was annoying, but just consider the originality of the concept!
Look at Micronauts: what other toy line lasted more than a year? Micros and GI Joe, both because the stories were quality.
Cloak and Dagger were also a great concept, with a great name, and I miss that quote that used to be given whenever they appeared. Think of the deeper level that recent Runaways issues could have with that "fearfully and wonderfully made" line about the darkness and light.
Mantlo was (to my knowledge) one of the first to create super powered twins whose powers were NOT directly connected...Pathway and Goblyn...what a concept!
Sabra...Bill Mantlo.
Lady Deathstrike...Bill Mantlo
The Puffball Collective...Bill Mantlo...oh, let me stop on that one.

Puck with Raazor was the worst, but can't that be retconned by saying it was the earliest of DreamQueen's influence? That whole battle, all a dream. One issue, and, *surprsingly* Puck hasn't really whined about the Raazor possession after the DreamQueen was defeated, has he?

His run in the 40's sucked in so many ways, but if you look at it from another standpoint, AF #35-50 was a constantly culminating saga that was building on itself step by step to an ultimate conclusion THAT ABSOLUTELY STANK. The deliery was horrendous, especially to fans of the core characters (and lets not forget that Norstar was sick from Pestilence's kiss even before Pestilence kissed him...OOPS!

I really wish Mr. Mantlo was coherent these days, because I want to know if his destruction of AF was mandated by Marvel/Jim Shooter. Byrne left Marvel in a storm shortly after he left Alpha, and it would not surprise me to learn if Jim Shooter mandated that Byrne's greatest creation be destroyed.

Look again at the Rom issues with Alpha...the man could handle them well, especially when it was Rom's place to be the whiney character and the others were guest stars.

Bill Mantlo, paying his way through Law school by writing comics, may have just been doing what his boss told him to do to keep his job.

Garry/Al-Fan

11-30-2005, 12:00 PM

I'm with Del, Mantlo did some absolutely great stuff.

The problem comes that he is better at creating characters than in writing them. I always enjoy his issues of Rom or Hulk, but I can't read them in runs, because his style of characterization ruins it over time. Heather did not go from strong woman to whiney b* because of the suit, but because that's how Mantlo characterizes everybody...the main characters become...incessently whiney pathetic people...issue after issue after issue after issue....His Alpha became

Puck, poor me, I love Heather but I'm a dwarf
twins, poor us, we cant touch
Shaman, poor me, I have no confidence
every, poor me poor me poor me

Del pointed out the research and care that went into Pestilence's creation. The man was great at concept....Manikin was annoying, but just consider the originality of the concept! [sorry, but Mantlo had written himself into a corner: Scramble/Omega was too strong, Alpha was too weak, and the team was surely doomed; I totally agree that Knapp is annoying, though]
....Mantlo was (to my knowledge) one of the first to create super powered twins whose powers were NOT directly connected...Pathway and Goblyn...what a concept! [okay, I can go along with that.]
Puck with Raazor was the worst, but can't that be retconned by saying it was the earliest of DreamQueen's influence? That whole battle, all a dream. [Let's all hope this will happen.] One issue, and, *surprsingly* Puck hasn't really whined about the Raazor possession after the DreamQueen was defeated, has he?

His run in the 40's sucked in so many ways, but if you look at it from another standpoint, AF #35-50 was a constantly culminating saga that was building on itself step by step to an ultimate conclusion THAT ABSOLUTELY STANK. [so what did he do that was "absolutely great stuff"?] The deliery was horrendous, especially to fans of the core characters (and lets not forget that Norstar was sick from Pestilence's kiss even before Pestilence kissed him...OOPS!

I really wish Mr. Mantlo was coherent these days [me, too], because I want to know if his destruction of AF was mandated by Marvel/Jim Shooter. [so do I] Byrne left Marvel in a storm shortly after he left Alpha, and it would not surprise me to learn if Jim Shooter mandated that Byrne's greatest creation be destroyed. [my suspicion, as well.]

Look again at the Rom issues with Alpha...the man could handle them well, especially when it was Rom's place to be the whiney character and the others were guest stars. [my issue with this appearance is that Rom and AF really didn't "team-up" to any real effect. In Marvel-Two-in-One, The Thing and AF combined their talents and defeated Ranark; in Rom, he and Starshine go off on their own and leave AF alone to do their thing. They didn't combine their talents to even minimum effectiveness. The story was a tragedy of staggering proportions, when Shaman + Rom + Marrina + Starshine should've equalled a better outcome.]

Bill Mantlo, paying his way through Law school by writing comics, may have just been doing what his boss told him to do to keep his job.

kozzi24

11-30-2005, 12:51 PM

His run in the 40's sucked in so many ways, but if you look at it from another standpoint, AF #35-50 was a constantly culminating saga that was building on itself step by step to an ultimate conclusion THAT ABSOLUTELY STANK. [so what did he do that was "absolutely great stuff"?]
The culmination itself...issue 45 or so had so many footnotes to refer to the events, yet it never seemed bogged down. He did really work a novel across those issues, and if Issue #50 had ended with Northstar, Puck and Aurora still on the team instead of cast off, the entire sage would have been more enjoyable. A matter of style and delivery rather than actual content.

Julesville

12-20-2005, 05:37 PM

I've just watched an excellent documentary on television. It was about Franklin and the ill fated search for the North West passage. Of course William Crozier was mentioned and I immediately thought of Pestilence.

Now any Alpha fan will know the general consensus when it comes to Mantlo's tenure on the book. I'm not going to touch on that, I am just going to say that no matter what else he did, he created two excellent villians in the Dream Queen and Pestilence. IMHO they both rank up there with 'The Master', 'Jaxxon', 'Omega Flight' and any other you care to mention, as alpha's greatest adversaries.

So nermally being a person who reaches for the barf bag when Mantlo is mentioned in regards to Alpha, I thought I'd give the bloke some kudos and say, I hope to see them both again somday causing grief for Alpha.

For all the bad things Mantlo was known for, he is also the only writer to ever make Alpha Flight truely a family team like the Fantastic Four. I mean with all the gushing, lovly stuff like everybody going to the beach together and going clubbing to gether sort of things. The minute he left the **** staring hitting the fan, and the fan didn't mind, he's into that sort of thing.

Maybe the family was kind of ******ed, but hey, Guardian started AF because he admired what FF were doing, saving the world threw selfless devotion to each other, right? Maybe Mantlo embodied that ideal mroe then anyone else.

Also, Heather as an inheritor of the suit is when of the best idea's ever. It makes the whole thing like a legasy. Like the man can die, but the legend will live on... or sumthin similarly sappy.

Garry/Al-Fan

12-21-2005, 12:13 PM

[quote]His run in the 40's sucked in so many ways...The culmination itself...issue 45 or so had so many footnotes to refer to the events, yet it never seemed bogged down [okay, I agree with that]. He did really work a novel across those issues, and if Issue #50 had ended with Northstar, Puck and Aurora still on the team instead of cast off, the entire sage would have been more enjoyable. A matter of style and delivery rather than actual content.

Unfortunately (or fortunately), story/saga endings should be a sensible culmination of all the build-up to it. This does not characterize what happened during the Mantlo run and I don't think that it was solely Bill Mantlo's fault. Not being an insider, I don't know whose fault it is, but I'm pretty sure that the readers were as manipulated as the characters were.

I tried to give the Mantlo era a chance, all the way up to AF# 55, but there was a hidden agenda going on with the series that did not have much if anything to do with making Alpha Flight a good book.

What I think happened: the Mantlo era treated AF as a horror book. It became a horrible book. Mantlo's last issue conceded the mistake of taking all the mystical characters out. As far as AF being a "family", it was a forced, dysfunctional one. All of the individual lives that the original members led prior to forming Alpha Flight were barely mentioned again!
But more importantly to me, Heather was the biggest death-threat Alpha Flight ever faced: "Snowbird/Sasquatch" killed by Heather, right after "S/S" kills her own child. Michael/"Talisman" quits the team because he won't/can't take orders from Heather. Aurora has to go all the way to Asguardian-land to give Northstar her powers, and then her teammates leave her there while Northstar visits some elves. Puck is dumped/written out of the series.

I see no real evidence that anyone was trying to make this team a family.
Disposable, yes. A family, no.

kozzi24

12-22-2005, 01:57 AM

No, Mantlo was trying. I remember "family" references in his run, mostly because I always hated the whole "we're family" thing when the people are not family. Anyone who's heard the line "we're all family here" in a workplace will probably know how irksome "forced family" is.
But Alpha was composed of family members. Northstar/Aurora, the marriage of Heather and Mac, Shaman/Talisman, and even in some regards that Shaman raised Snowbird and Talisman was stated at one point as having all but been raised by Heather's family after the death of her mother.
Of course, quite contrary to the homage and positive intention of the thread, Mantlo did throw most of that away.

Unfortunately (or fortunately), story/saga endings should be a sensible culmination of all the build-up to it. This does not characterize what happened during the Mantlo run and I don't think that it was solely Bill Mantlo's fault. Not being an insider, I don't know whose fault it is, but I'm pretty sure that the readers were as manipulated as the characters were.
I think the intent was undercutting John Byrne. He does seem to bring that out in people, and his sudden departure from FF and Marvel probably motivated the seeming (I do not know for sure) editorial destruction of Alpha.

cmdrkoenig67

12-22-2005, 04:35 AM

No, Mantlo was trying. O remember "family" references in his run, mostly because I always hated the whole "we're family" thing when the people are not family. Anyone who's heard the line "we're all family here" in a workplace will probably know how irksome "forced family" is.
But Alpha was composed of family members. Northstar/Aurora, the marriage of Heather and Mac, Shaman/Talisman, and even in some regards that Shaman raised Snowbird and Talisman was stated at one point as having all but been raised by Heather's family after the death of her mother.

That's a big part of the reason why I loved the original group...the familial connections...and probably why I didn't like Vol. 2...all the strangers that showed up.

Of course, quite contrary to the homage and positive intention of the thread, Mantlo did throw most of that away.

Unfortunately (or fortunately), story/saga endings should be a sensible culmination of all the build-up to it. This does not characterize what happened during the Mantlo run and I don't think that it was solely Bill Mantlo's fault. Not being an insider, I don't know whose fault it is, but I'm pretty sure that the readers were as manipulated as the characters were.
I think the intent was undercutting John Byrne. He does seem to bring that out in people, and his sudden departure from FF and Marvel probably motivated the seeming (I do not know for sure) editorial destruction of Alpha.

Could be...But the series continued for about 100 more issues(since Byrne left)....that's a really slow death.

Dana

syvalois

12-22-2005, 09:30 AM

Garry/Al-Fan

12-22-2005, 11:49 AM

No, Mantlo was trying..."family" references in his run, mostly because I always hated the whole "we're family" thing when the people are not family. [this characterizes the collection of Mantlo characters: Kara/Persuasion, Dean twins, Madison Jeffries, Wanda Langkowski, Whitman Knapp, and "Heather Hudson" with the Courtney battlesuit, and I agree completely that the attempt was contrived] ...But Alpha was composed of family members. Northstar/Aurora, the marriage of Heather and Mac, Shaman/Talisman, and even in some regards that Shaman raised Snowbird and Talisman was stated at one point as having all but been raised by Heather's family after the death of her mother. [I was trying to stick with the thread (for a change) and keep it to the Mantlo era; the original interdependencies are what helped make AF my favorite team] Of course, quite contrary to the homage and positive intention of the thread, Mantlo did throw most of that away.

I think the intent was undercutting John Byrne. He does seem to bring that out in people [that's too bad, because his creations and the readers are the main ones who are suffering], and his sudden departure from FF and Marvel probably motivated the seeming (I do not know for sure) editorial destruction of Alpha.

Very little rang true throughout the Mantlo run. Mantlo era characters are notorious liars/deceivers. Biggest one: Gary Cody.

And hinging everybody's well-being on Lionel Jeffries, who kept touching Heather after he convinced Madison that he had "cured" himself, is manipulating the readers and the characters at the same time. Heather doesn't even attempt to get Michael to look at Puck, whom he's already treated effectively? Heather doesn't even ask the others if they have a private doctor? Northstar, an Olympic ski champion, doesn't have his own private doctor(s)? If this makes sense, please explain it to me. It's been years, and I've yet to figure it out.

Julesville

12-22-2005, 05:11 PM

The whole concept of "The Family" is kind of corny. The whole lone anti-heroes working together for a common goal but from different angles is the more popular form now; Like how the X-Men and Avengers can sometimes barely get along, that there are different factions within teams who beleive different things, and generaly have different story lines that crash into each other, often violently.

"The Family", harks back to the old days where characters were so one-dimentional that they all felt exactly the same abotu everything. Almost like it's propaghanda for public outcry, like "We all hate Russians!" or "America is the best ever of anything?." I think most people, including comic book characters, find that kinda of lame.

Still, there's a part of people that wants to create the Family, so that everyone can get along and you don't feel anxiety around your team members, making it the goal. Every body wants to establish trust and understanding in the end

Mantlo may have ushered it into AF before it's natural time, and in a very bad way (i.e. killing off characters, creating new ones who needed daddy/mommy figures). Still, it was a hell of a lot more peaceful then anything before or after it (peaseful for people who figth monsters and criminals).

I mean, the first issue, it ended with Puck and Sasquatch beating the snork out of each other, and right after the Dreamqueen arc, Purple Girl becomes irrepresably pissed at her surogate family and Heather starts *****ing like all hell at Talisman, not so family like. It seem through most of the series, everyone was constantly lamenting Mac's death and the family atmosphere that never existed, Snowbird held her loyalties to the god above any on earth, Aurora tried to destroy everything around her since she got pissed at Northstar (which I think was Mantlo's fault), and anyone else who tried to get in on this extremly dysfuntional foster family was shunned and beat up on, adding the team's mental problems to their own.

Still, I like AF a lot for this reason, a distopia that saves the world...

cmdrkoenig67

12-22-2005, 05:15 PM

All that bickering, *****ing, arguing....Sound just like a family to me, Julesville.

Dana :D

HappyCanuck

12-22-2005, 07:34 PM

All that bickering, *****ing, arguing....Sound just like a family to me, Julesville.

Dana :D

Heh, I was JUST about to say that, Dana...

cmdrkoenig67

12-22-2005, 09:37 PM

All that bickering, *****ing, arguing....Sound just like a family to me, Julesville.

Dana :D

Heh, I was JUST about to say that, Dana...

Hee-hee...I beat you to it...LOL :P

Dana :wink:

kozzi24

12-22-2005, 10:40 PM

I never liked the "Family" feeling for AF. Do not sound right for them. X-Men ? FF? totally, but not AF. I liked Byrne's AF, mostly a working force that as the relations that goes with it. Some liked each others, some did not but they did found a way to worked together. And in that compagny you do have family ties. I really like family stories, but not imposed or not plausible family stories.
I think Kozzi said it better:

Anyone who's heard the line "we're all family here" in a workplace will probably know how irksome "forced family" is.

yeah that's how Mantlo made it looked added with whinning.

I think your expansion of the working relationship put it even better, Sylvie.
They worked together, even after the government ceased being an employer. The original team were coworkers, bickering and one-upping each other at every opportunity, but getting the job done. Look at V1#12...five pages fighting between each other before kicc=king Omega butt.
Mantlo's use of Persuasaion particularly shows Gary's point of Mantlo's characters needing a mommy and daddy. Persuasion could have worked so much better if she had been used as Shadowcat was initially used, new eyes to view the rest of the team. Hard to do when the team she joins is gone on the inside of 12 issues.
But, in keeping with the positive tone of the thread's intent, Persuasion was the first "illegitimate" offspring of a mind controller, and I'm sure her parents were married only by editorial decision to pander to the social mores of the time.

Julesville

12-23-2005, 12:48 AM

All that bickering, *****ing, arguing....Sound just like a family to me, Julesville.

Dana :D

Heh, I was JUST about to say that, Dana...

Hee-hee...I beat you to it...LOL :P

Dana :wink:

I don't know what yer talking about, my family was perfect, I... DADDY!!! Why didn't you come to the science fair?!?! Why don't you tell me you love me!?!?!?!?! WAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!

syvalois

12-23-2005, 11:59 AM

I think your expansion of the working relationship put it even better, Sylvie.
They worked together, even after the government ceased being an employer. The original team were coworkers, bickering and one-upping each other at every opportunity, but getting the job done. [/quote]

Well, I did not said it first,I read it somewhere.I just don't remember who said it. It may even be Byrne in an interview that said that, but I thought it was acurate.