Smart Alec - Shaman thought

[mos_def]

Im a little hazy on specifics but has Shaman inverted is bag after the Smart Alec body (Walt) came out of the bag. I know he has absorbed mass amounts of radiation due to the submarine arc in Avengers way way back. Was just wondering since I realized that Flashback was still alive and technically Smart Alec essence could be in another body since they do it all the time in the X books-( Jean Grey, Emma Frost, Shard and so on and so on)

[HappyCanuck]

while I have no concrete proof, I'd say it's a definate possibily. I mean, Walt's consciousness - after he left the Hulk's body - found Smart Alec's body IN the pouch, and considering Alec's mind was lost IN the pouch, it's safe to assume he's still in there, somewhere...

[zekethegreat]

I doubt his mind would be in there. I mean, when he looked in to the pouch he went insane. and I assume when walter went into his body Alec's mind simply took a back seat to walter's mind, so his insane mind was destroyed when his body was.

Zeke

[Ben]

I wouldn't say that it was insanity so much, insanity still implies concious thought, in which case depositing his body in the pouch would have horrific. Looking into the pouch destroyed his mind completely I thought.

Ben

[zekethegreat]

I wouldn't say that it was insanity so much, insanity still implies concious thought, in which case depositing his body in the pouch would have horrific. Looking into the pouch destroyed his mind completely I thought.

That sounds reasonable, but either way his mind doesn't exist in the crossroads.

Zeke-o

[Powersurge]

Not knowing the precise mechanisms by which Shaman's pouch operates, I wouldn't be too quick to say that Smart Alec's mind was destroyed, as opposed to, perhaps, being sucked into the pouch.

Of course, if his mind/conciousness was floating around in there, and his body was also placed in there, one might think that there should've been somekinda natural attractrion between the two. But then, I don't know how the pouch works, so ....

Maybe Smart Alec's consciousness IS still "in" there?! :?

[zekethegreat]

In #12 when Smart Alec looks in it basically says that he goes insane.
and in #13 Shaman says that the pouch "took his mind", and that he will try to "restore his sanity".
from that it seems he just went insane.
BUT, it never says that his body and his mind separated.

Zeke the geek

[Powersurge]

Yeah. I read the relevent portions of the issues you mentioned. It seems to me that if a writer wanted to say that Alec's mind went into the pouch, he could do it without flying into the face of some established fact.

Afterall, it does say that Alec's sanity slipped away, but it also says that the pouch *took his mind*. Shaman vows to *restore his mind*. His body is inert in the same position it was in when he "lost" his "mind" ... quite uncharacteristic of most "crazy" people I've seen, but then maybe it was Shaman's magic that froze him so?!

I'm just saying an author could easily exploit the "clear obscurity" of the situation and take it any direction they wanted. Hell, husbands and girlfriends have been vapourized right infront of the readers eyes, all complete with a pile of ash, and yet someone future writers have engineered miraculous returns. In comparison to Mac or Jean Grey, this one's 6-pack-easy.

[Legerd]

I said in another thread that I would love to see Smart Alec return in another body as his mind was sucked into the pouch and not destroyed. Still, no matter what was put down in previous books a writer can do whatever he/she wants to with characters who have "died". There are a multitude of ways for a character to return, doubly so when dealing with magic and even more so when it's Shaman's pouch.
I, for one, would love to see SA return as he was (as many AF characters were) someone with a lot of potential that was never really explored.

[zekethegreat]

In issue #19 when Elizabeth looks into the pouch Shaman says that no other person could look into the pouch without risking INSANITY.
from there it seems that the person(such as Smart Alec) would become insane, which may prove that the pouch doesn't suck in the persons mind.
Anyway, Smart Alec apparently discovered some secret of the pouch, so I doubt it would suck his mind in, because maybe someone would somehow get it back and people might be in trouble.
Speaking of Shaman's pouch, where did the demons (X-men/AF mini)that came out of it come from? and what dimensions does it connect to?

Ezekiel the Prophet(sort of)

[DelBubs]

Shamans Pouch connects to many different dimensions. It is a gateway to the nexus of realities or somthing like that. A bit like Swamp Things (or whatever his name is) swamp. So theoretically, Smart Alecs mind, along with Pestilence's could inhabit an empty shell (body or robotic) reappear at some point.

[Powersurge]

Hmmm. Issue 12 gives the impression that Shaman had no idea what would happen if someone looked into the pouch, having only been warned that it was not a good thing, period.

Like I said though, one could argue the matter either way.

[kozzi24]

Consider "insane" as "mindless" rather than as a clinical definition and it all works.

[Le Messor]

I've -always- thought the pouch just sucked up SA's mind. Insanity is one way to describe that; after all, though there's now nothing wrong with his body, his mind's all garfunkelled; or at least, they can get nothing out of him. That's one definition of insanity.

... it's the one I just made up, okay?

- Le Messor
"Don’t steal. The government hates competition."

[Powersurge]

Consider "insane" as "mindless" rather than as a clinical definition and it all works.

The thing is though, who is prividing the deifnition of "insane"?

Issue 12 "When Michael Twoyoungmen's grandfather taught him the wys of the medicine bag he warned him against ever looking into it."

It doesn't say anything of Shaman being aware of any specific consequences.

In issue 13 Shaman himself states, "When Alec Thorne looked into my medicine bag it took his mind."

It then shows Shaman holding a tiny Smart Alec, shrunken by Shaman's magic, but curiously stiull in the exact position he was in when the medicine bag "took his mind".

To reiterate another point, being frozen like a manikin isn't part of any clincal definition of insanity that I've ever heard. Nor is Shaman a clinical psychologist.

Now admittedly, issue 12 also states in boxed text that Smart Alec's sanity "slipped away", and while Judd says something about Shaman restoring Smart Alec's mind ("restore his mind"), Shaman states, on the same page, prior panel, that he has to "Restore him to sanity".

So, there is no need to be overly interpretive of what may or may not be considered "insane" or "mindless", as the comics in question use them interchangeably and none of the characters have an clue as to the consequences of looking into the pouch, nor are any qualified psychologist. Even so, to stress the point, I've seen a few crazy people in my time and none of them were frozen in the exact same position as when they first went crazy. Maybe its a new insanity? Kinetophobia or something!?

[zekethegreat]

Talking about Smart Alec, did anybody notice that Shaman never actually tried to return his sanity. (how could he if he shrunk his body?)
The pouch would probably make anybody who looks in lose his sanity with no way of getting it back. because if they could get it back they might be dangerous person because who knows what secrets they saw.

יחזקאל פנחס שלום קורנברג[/left]

[mos_def]

they call it off panel actions