New Avengers 16 (no spoilers, but a link to some)

[Adam]

There are a few scans of the issue here. All the spoilers you could ask for. Enter at your own risk:

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=59432

I was really trying to avoid looking at it but I couldn't. I won't say anything about it until we give everyone a chance to read the issue.

[HappyCanuck]

and the crowd goes apes***....

[RatCat]

...

[Adam]

...I've got a plan. A theory of a plan at least. I'll reveal it later when I have time.

It starts by going "I'll give Marvel a chance here IF..." and is followed by a laundry list of stuff.

[PWalk]

Seriously....

I can't wait to hear what everyone else thinks. I'm going to go jump in a river right now. Be right back.

[Mokole]

Beat up or dead? Open to interpretation, as always.

Since Puck and Guardian show up in Civil War (or so we think), beat up is more likely.

[Alpha Fan]

I am sorry to start posting in this thread but I have just seen the preview and I couldn't stay without saying anything. I have no words at the moment but I hope Marvel gives an explanation to this soon. The only good thing (if there is any) I see in this is that my favourite Alphans (Northstar, Aurora and Snowbird) are safe but... what the hell? You can't do this to Alpha Flight Marvel!!!

[Spyridona]

I posted the spoilers on an LJ community. There's... an intresting mix of reactions.

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/1436677.html

[varo]

so many 4 letter words.


so little time.

[suzene]

Right. So Bendis is going right up there with Mantlo, Austen, and Millar...

Suzene

[-K-M-]

At least were not the only ones pissed off.

1. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=391641&perpage=20&pagenumber=1
2. http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219295

[cmdrkoenig67]

HHmph!...Like I said...Hard and fast.

Dana :x

[-K-M-]

I am so angry, I'm shocked most members here arn't freaking out. I'm pissed off at the comments on newsarama.

[suzene]

I am so angry, I'm shocked most members here arn't freaking out. I'm pissed off at the comments on newsarama.

I've got a healthy amount of distance, I think. Like I said over on s_d, I stopped giving a damn a while back and it's all been one big 'What-If' since. I can still get annoyed at lazy writing done just for shock value, or when Marvel continues their tradition of staffing 95% of editorial with homo-skittish fratboys, but I just can't work up the mad for deep, personal outrage over this anymore. I don't care enough to buy the books and I don't care enough to try and change them into anything I'd want to buy.

Suzene

[HappyCanuck]

I think we're all too angry/shocked/whatever to really say HOW angry/shocked/whatever we are... Mr. Bendis, if you read this, you'd be best to stay incommunicado for a PRETTY good long while...

[RatCat]

I have a lot I want to say... but I didn't want to post any spoilers... and I want to read the whole book before I make any judgments.

But yeah, it looks bad.

[Barnacle13]

OK! That was shocking and disturbing to read/view! But I'm over the initial shock and will try to take a calm stab at this. It may not be as bad as it looks (even though it probably is). Reasons:

1) We only really see Mac get kanked. He could've flown out ahead to meet his doom and the others remained unscathed. Plus many of us have already stated that he should've stayed dead in the first place. One could look at it as clearing up that continuity mess once and for all.

2) Of course, there are several versions of Mac roaming around anyway. He flew off into space, was teleported through time at the end of V3, and his clone was still alive at the end of V2. So the Civil war thing still has many Mac's to choose from.

3) Shaman may have worked some mojo to get them all out of the fire at the last moment.

4) The Collective may have just barreled through and not made sure the kills were complete. And then maybe Alpha Flight could still recover.

This a being said, I still think they probably bought it. Since Bendis wrote it, my guess would be that the dead Mac is the origianl and the Civil War one will be a clone, and Puck was saved by the Raazer demon inside him (arrgh!). Poor little Orpan Hudson! Maybe she'll get pissed and form her own Alpha Flight once she can walk!

[Shaman Of The Whills]

****! ****! ****! ****! ****!
GOD BLAST IT! ****! I'm so ******* torn up right now! I'm SO pissed off! I can't believe this ****! If this is the real, true Alpha Flight, I am so incredibly angry. I can't believe they'd just take them out, especially like THAT... thats just horrible... I swear to God... I swear... I swear... God, I'm just trembling with rage. TREMBLING. I'll have to return at a time when I'm a little... I don't know... more coherent. And less outraged... AGHFGH! And if this IS without a doubt the true Alpha Flight and there is no coming back, I don't care what anyone else thinks about Wolverine, but that boy better get his ******* *** up and slaughter whoever did this! I want some ******* vengeance!

[Obsidian3d]

Ok I'm of two minds about this. I haven't read the whole issue, but from all reports the death of the Alphans is NOT shown. No battle, no nothing...just them lying on the ground bloodied up. If they ARE dead (which is possible going by the solicitation of the issue as Alpha Flight's final battle) it's a lame, Lame, LAME way to do things. You do NOT kill of heroes with 20+ years of history off-panel.

On the other hand, seeing as the deaths are not actually shown, I think it might be safe to say that they're not dead or that at least some of them have survived. No battle, no actual DEATH scene, possibly no dead Alphans. If that's the case we could end up with this opening doors to some of them joining the Avengers or some such.

I'm hoping for the second theory, because otherwise I'm gonna be really pissed off at the disrespect for those characters.

[Powersurge]

As was already mentioned, we don't yet know if it's dead or just beat up. Mac looks pretty messed though. Of course, he might just be dazed.

In any event, if they are dead objective honesty begs that I feel sorry for the rest of Marvel Earth. Afterall, Sasquatch alone can hold his own against Hercules or Hulk or Juggernaut, and the rest of AF aren't exactly wimps either.

Anything that can pound through the Flight that quick and easy, is gonna female-dog-slap the Hulk, tenderize his meat with Thor's hammer, serve Hulk-steaks up on Cap's shield and then pick his teeth with Wolverine's claws.

If the Marvel-God is a righteous and just God that is ... as opposed to some whacko on meth.

[RatCat]

If they weren't dead I don't think it would be called their last battle.

Judging by what we’ve seen here and by Joe Q’s comments I don’t see Alpha Flight involved in any Marvel stories for a while.

There are a couple of them on the Civil War poster, but I suspect that was just a generic montage of Marvel heroes to signify the magnitude of the crossover. Also for all we know this is their contribution to the Civil War storyline.

I’m pretty upset at this. This isn’t why I started reading comics again… To see my favourite super-team like that.

[Shaman Of The Whills]

As was already mentioned, we don't yet know if it's dead or just beat up. Mac looks pretty messed though. Of course, he might just be dazed.

I hate to say it, but the way they're drawn sure as heck makes them look dead. The eyes of Shaman and Mac look pretty lifeless... the way the bodies are positioned also looks like traditional images of dead people... Mapleleaf's arm lying back like that... and it doesn't look like any of them are even making an effort to get up, which may suggest that they've just been beaten into unconsciousness, but in my opinion that is even less likely... I mean all of them beaten only unconscious? At the very least, half of them are dead without a doubt. I'm just praying that certain ones make up that half...

Also, I agree with sentiments expressed either here or elsewhere saying that the rest of the Marvel Universe MUST have a difficult time with this threat if it can take out the Alphans like that, particularly Shaman and Sasquatch... even as "less important" characters in the eyes of the current Marvel Administration, anything that takes out those guys has to at the VERY least kill half of the New Avengers. Sure, Spider-Man, Luke Cage and Captain America might be cool on levels, but not a single one of them nears the power levels of some of the Alphans... I mean Spidey himself is pretty much equal to Puck on most levels, especially depending on the environment... anyways, if this is the death of Alpha Flight, it sure as hell better be the death of some other people too.

Also, if they're dead, the biggest problem for me is wanting them back... and if I were a Marvel writer attempting that, I'd hate to go the way of resurrection... so as soon as we learn if this was a true demise or not, I'm starting a little brain trust in my basement whose sole duty for the next 5 years will be to come up with a plausible, interesting and enjoyable means of resurrecting the team... Alphans in Hell maybe? Who knows... :cry:

And if I were Wolverine right now, I'd fine whoever did this, pin them down and then slice them to pieces... pop one claw... this is for Sasquatch... pop another, this is for Puck... pop another, this is for Shaman... you get the idea. Sure he's only got six claws, but meh, he probably didn't know all the new members, at least not too well.

[-K-M-]

This is Alpha Flight's last battle remember? so yeah looks like they are dead

Shaman alone could have beaten them:
[He held the rift for over 2 hours]

1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/avengers_v1_323_01_rougher.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/avengers_v1_323_02_rougher.jpg
3. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/avengers_v1_323_03_rougher.jpg
4. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/avengers_v1_323_04_rougher.jpg
5. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/avengers_v1_323_05_rougher.jpg
6. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/avengers_v1_323_06_rougher.jpg
7. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/avengers_v1_324_07_rougher.jpg
8. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/avengers_v1_324_13_rougher.jpg
9. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/avengers_v1_324_17_rougher.jpg

and yes....that's an atomic bomb

[Adam]

So here's my thoughts, still having not read the issue yet…

Joe said this a few weeks ago:

So, let's review... When I said, ''dead is dead," the Internet community took that (as it so often does) into a million different directions and had a trillion different interpretations of what I said even though I explained it clearly. "Dead is dead" above all else was meant as something for our writers to be very aware of, that I wasn't going to allow a significant character death or resurrection to happen if not for the following things.

1.) No clichéd comic deaths. If a major character is to die, it must be in a significant way because there will be no resurrections (unless *)

2.) If a character dies a clichéd death, like he jumps off a bridge never to be found, sorry, that's just open for interpretation and clichéd writing. All bets are off, resurrect at will.

3.) If you're going to kill a significant character in a significant way, then you must either create something in their place or we're not doing it.

4.) * If, and this is very important, you're killing of a character and plan on resurrecting him or her, then I want to hear the plan in advance and it better not suck. This is exactly what had happened with Hawkeye.

5.) And this is the most important one out of all of these. If you plan to bring a significant character back from the dead then it better be the best resurrection story ever.

Now we could argue if Alpha is "significant" or not, but aside from that I'm pointing out number 3. What is Bendis going to create in their place? If there's some grand plan I can't see, fine. I'll stick around for the rest of the arc and see how things play out (like how Wolverine reacts). However… if this is just a "clichéd death" then I really can't see myself sticking around Marvel for very much longer. There are very few books I'm reading these days from them, New Avengers being one of them, and I was willing to give Civil War a shot, but if it turns out my favorite characters are just cannon fodder now I really won't hesitate to save a few dollars per month or re-invest that into DC or creator owned books. This "death," if it is a death, better have some sort of payoff or follow up, or I'm out.

[-K-M-]

and his clone was still alive at the end of V2. So the Civil war thing still has many Mac's to choose from.


The clone died in an issue of Wolverine, the same issue where Snowbird came back.

[RatCat]

Now we could argue if Alpha is "significant" or not, but aside from that I'm pointing out number 3. What is Bendis going to create in their place?

I think what he is creating in their place is this new “collective” villain

[Adam]

I always saw it as creating something to fill the void. I can see how the New Avengers and Young Avengers could be argued as the result of the deaths in Disassembled.

The Collective, if I understand it right, is just a new villain. That doesn't quite measure up what we're losing.

[PWalk]

Personally I think how the whole thing went down is bull****. Here's a team built from scratch to go toe to toe with the X-Men and they get steamrolled by some glowing c-sucker, straight bull****.

I only come back to comics when there's a new AF book or appearance. This event pretty much assures I won't be coming back. F the higher ups at Marvel for giving the green light on this piece of **** story.


Now that I sorta vented allow me to provide a glimmer of hope. Dead bodies don't hold their hand up like the way that Mac is there. A lifeless bodie falls completely limp meaning that hand should be laying on or against something. It's my guess that at least Mac just got the caca knocked out of him and he's dazed. Take it from someone who's been knocked out before and had it caught on tape, that's what you look like.

I know folks I'm reaching here but what else can I do?

[Shaman Of The Whills]

The Collective, if I understand it right, is just a new villain. That doesn't quite measure up what we're losing.

Especially considering the context of this new villain... at least from what I've seen and read (which is limited at best), the collective while a "major" threat, does not seem like a continual threat, as in one that will last for a significant amount of time (examples of 'real' villains being Doctor Doom, Magneto and the like)... the way I viewed what was said is that when characters are taken out of the world permanently, they must be replaced by something of equal value, as in something that will effectively fill their level of power/influence and such... so yes, I agree with the idea that the Young/New Avengers would be the justification for the Avengers... essentially its applying conservation to comic books... hopefully balanced and such... I just don't see the Collective as lasting that long, especially on a 10 year plus scale.

[Defunct]

ABSOLUTELY pathetic.

It's pretty clear here, Bendis wanted his new villain to look a threat so he has it kill a B-list superhero team OFF PANEL. What, he couldn't devote a few pages of jis precious book to at least show them putting up a little bit of a fight?! It's nothing more or less than lazy writing.

The reading public is more than capable of seeing through this bull, but sadly that won't bring our team back. Pathetic.

[-K-M-]

Funeral for Guardian
Alpha Flight #101-This seems appropriate after the events of New Avengers #16. Alpha Flight believed when Mac sacrificed his life to save billions, they thought he was gone forever. Heather gives some sad parting ways and those same comments can be applied to each and every member of Alpha Flight. Just to note Mac isn't really dead, he eventually comes back at the end of the series. Still we should pay our respects to Alpha Flight

1. http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f130/A_Flight7/AlphaFlightv1101-07.jpg
2. http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f130/A_Flight7/AlphaFlightv1101-08.jpg
3. http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f130/A_Flight7/AlphaFlightv1101-19.jpg
4. http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f130/A_Flight7/AlphaFlightv1101-21.jpg

[Ben]

As far as Marvel continuity goes, Alpha Flight is in space, and these characters (Shaman, The Hudsons, and Puck I) are all alternate versions taken from the past. The only character that might be "dead" that would have any real impact is Sasquatch, but he's tough enough that he may have survived.

Ben

[DelBubs]

You mean Marvel has continuity? Hurrah, we are saved :-)

[Legerd]

I picked up the book today and as soon as I finished it I went to marvel.com and wrote an e-mail to them. I said I was never buying another Marvel comic again, then told Joe Q to screw himself but in four-letter words and let Bendis know his writing is crap and he cost the company a loyal reader. What I really wanted to say to him was I hope he got cancer, but that's not appropriate even for this piece of $&!#. The worst part however is the last four pages of the book are taken up with a lame-@$$ story about some lame-@$$ super group from the New Universe! I swear we should all stop buying Marvel books and see if they respect AF and their fans then.

[PWalk]

Ben brings up a good point, AF is actually in space right now. Maybe Lobdell actually did some good in that final issue of vol. 3.

But there is one problem, Sasquatch. He wasn't on that ship. But I'm not too worried as I guarantee he ain't dead. {sas} [-X

[-K-M-]

Yes I remember current Alpha FLight is in space, but killing your past self can't be good for the present Alpha Flight. Wait....wouldn't the Earth be destroyed, since this was the AF team when Guardian went to New York, so if they died now they couldn't prevent the Great Beasts from causing more damage, or Llan or even Dreamqueen from taking control of the world.

[DelBubs]

Yes I remember current Alpha FLight is in space, but killing your past self can't be good for the present Alpha Flight. Wait....wouldn't the Earth be destroyed, since this was the AF team when Guardian went to New York, so if they died now they couldn't prevent the Great Beasts from causing more damage, or Llan or even Dreamqueen from taking control of the world.
Yes but what your forgetting is that because different members of Alpha went to different time periods to try and help Flashback, lots of divergent realities were created. We all know that the real Alpha were never stolen from time, so it must have been one of these divergent Alpha Flights that came to this time. Sas had a team after AF vol 3 #12, the pseudo Alphans joined, they fought the 'Collective' and got battered. The real Alphans are in space on a space ship that got blown up in vol 1 so the Master of the World would be free of Plodex technology.

Or
"Meanwhile in a continuity free universe far away..."

[-K-M-]

You might be right this Alpha Flight might be from a divergent timeline

[Shaman Of The Whills]

Ben brings up a good point, AF is actually in space right now. Maybe Lobdell actually did some good in that final issue of vol. 3.

A valid point for the distant future, but I think that under the current administration, this should probably even stay a hidden fact, as they might try to explain that away, retconning it to make things even more confusing, just to make sure that Alpha Flight is dead. I for one shall take a bit of solace in the thought and let myself hold on to the possibility, despite the fact that it means we may not see the true Alphans for some time. As for Sasquatch... if he is indeed dead (which admittedly in the pictures he appears to be the only one in my mind who actually has a chance of still being alive, also a point to argue is that being in Sasquatch form is a result of Langowski's willpower, and as he has not reverted to human form, this must mean he is still alive)... well actually after that, screw my sentimental words honoring him, the big furball has got to still be alive!

[Weapon Omega]

God guys I'm dying over here! After work I'm running to my local shop and picking up this book. I know I'll be disappointed, but I just have to see for myself.


And thanks for everyone on this thread who didn't give away TOO much stuff, for a guy who hasn't read it yet it's appreciated.

It's such a shame at Marvel that if your not Spiderman, The X-Men or Wolverine you're completely expendable, it makes me sick.

[Mokole]

I doubt that they Lobdell stuff will ever be much use 'in continuity', as sad as it was. The AF in New Avengers is AF, or else why would Heather be there or be suing that suit, since either way 'young Heather' had zippo experience with anything superhero and thus would not be on this mission, since Mac is. Therefore, this is the real AF, back from space or never in space.

Now, are they dead? Maybe. Will they stay 'dead'? No, of course not. Mac died three times alone. Snowbird once. And people keep hoping a retconn will bring Marrina back to life.

The Northstar news in July could be him returning to reformat AF with Box, Lil, and Aurora, or some such thing. If that happens, then OK they died in NA but again nothing in comics is forever.

Still I doubt this will be a 'dead is dead' thing even for 6 months. Maybe it would be OK if they were dead and stayed so, but millions of comic book fans want Jean Grey to stay dead and she keeps coming back, just like Mac. Then there's Psylocke and Colossus, for heck's sake. And so many more characters shown with their heads blown off and body parts scattered across 5 time zones, but they 'return' to life somehow, and it never makes sense. Poor maggots, they eat those guys and never get to finish.

[MistressMerr]

First Brubaker, now Bendis. Note to writers: KILLING OFF CLASSIC CHARACTERS CHEAPLY AND LAMELY DOES NOT MAKE YOUR STUPID NEW VILLAIN LOOK OH-SO-COOL.

Just revolting. Ugh. There goes what little respect I had for the man after the sheer crapfests that were House of M and Secret War.

[SephirothsKiller]

Am i the only one who isn't cool with the death of Puck II? But seriously, what really bothers me is the way marvel kills characters. When I see death I want it to be really obvious, not Guardian having a ripped mask and a nose bleed. If I see someone get hit by a gigantic blast I expect to see body parts everywhere, burn marks, and at least some singed fur on Sassy. Why did Guardian not "Teleport?" And how can anybody kill Puck? Is anybody else angry that they didn't even get a full issue because of the add-in? And why the hell are the New Avengers on the cover? Anyone remember when characters on the cover had something to do with what they did in the comic and were'nt just modeling? The way this is going Marvel is just going to stick a picture on every comic book including Franklin Richards just to make sales. Its like they're asking for the 1990's crash all over again. I admire DC though their stuff is too complicated for me to get into now. They at least kill characters off with respect.

[-K-M-]

I picked up the book today and as soon as I finished it I went to marvel.com and wrote an e-mail to them.

Where can you send them an e-mail? I just finished writing my letter and want to send it to them.

This is my letter, good..bad...dumb?
==============
Dear Marvel,
I have been a Marvel reader for over 20 years and have over 10,000 of your comics just alone. I was content with you as the number one comic company out there, since you have such a great diverse amount of characters that have such a wealth of history. Now this brings up my point with the events in New Avengers #16. How dare you kill off Alpha Flight the way you did! What gives Bendis the right to kill of long time running characters just on a whim? Alpha Flight is one of the most underrated and strongest Marvel teams out there. They were groundbreakers and covered things other comics wouldn’t touch.

Honestly how is New Avengers going to beat this threat, when Alpha Flight the people who have taken down Llan, Dreamqueen, Galactus, Great Beasts and various other things, couldn’t? This incident spat in the faces of all the fans of Alpha Flight and it’s disrespectful to do this to a long-running team. Their first volume of comics ran #130 issues and some characters been around for 30 years. Now Bendis killed them? off panel? I was irate when I picked up this issue, but I hope you remember the events of Alpha Flight vol.3. That this isn’t the real Alpha Flight, but the Alpha Flight from a past divergent timeline. The real ones are on the Plodex home world with Earthmover and Mac and Heather’s daughter.

If you look at their abilities they have shown in their own series and others they are greatly underrated. Such as Shaman sucking up an atomic bomb, Guardian having the ability to shut people’s brains off, Sasquatch tossing a 250 ton DC-10 1000 feet while the engines were still on, Talisman rivals Dr.Strange’s power, etc. You down play Alpha Flight’s abilities enough and now this? Why didn’t Guardian “teleport” away when things got bad, and how is Puck even cut open? Guardian has blasts capable of taken down a weakened Galactus and to kill a being as durable as Sasquatch. Puck is invulnerable and his tissues are made of compressed rubber, so why is he cut up? Shaman on the other hand could have done many things his potential is limitless. I’m sick of Bendis and I’m sick of your “shock” value comics. Give Dan Slott more jobs and lower the amount you give Bendis. I will admit he has great talent, but he is spreading himself to thin and this has pissed me off to no ends.

Once again you spat in the face of all the fans of Alpha Flight, and you didn’t even show them the respect to go down in a blaze of glory. If this were handled like the Freedom Fighters in Infinite Crisis #1 I would have been upset that they died; but not upset at the writer and the company. Another thing to note, Shaman does not say things like “yeah, right” and stated in vol.3 Alpha Flight does not work for the Canadian government. Also why didn’t the leader of Alpha Flight [Guardian] say anything? I saw Puck, Guardian and possibly Sasquatch [or Werewolf by Night] on the Civil War poster, but was that just a non-spoiler poster?

I’m deeply offended, and I’m seriously contemplating ending all purchases of future Marvel comics due to Bendis lack of respect for characters. I hope this isn’t the end of Alpha Flight, which your solicits said it would be. They are a great set of characters, and there are no bad characters…. only bad writers.

Sincerely, a concerned Marvel fan
Andrew Monkman

[Spyridona]

I think this sounds silly, but mentioning the Alternative Universe team might not be something you want to draw attention to. Less the people remember, the more fodder a writer might have to writing the characters again.

The second to last paragraph doesn’t seem necessary, just added gripes to a horrible issue in general. However, I’d try to give an example of a ‘proper death’ that was written in a Marvel series and not DC.

Other than that and maybe a few grammar errors, not too bad at all.

[Obsidian3d]

That looks really good and certainly gets your point across. :evil: I hope someone at Marvel actually takes the time to read it.

[-K-M-]

Yeah I actually took some of the paragraphs out, new one is a lot different than that.

What is a good Marvel death that was covered?

Edit: so where can I e-mail it on marvel.com? I can't find a "contact us" page.

[kozzi24]

First, let me state 4 things that happened to me yesterday:
I tried Musinex for the first time.
I ate a can of creamed corn.
I read New Avengers #16.
I puked my guts out.
One or all of the first 3 led to the fourth. I'm not sure which.

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

------------------------------------

OK...I thought the issue was pretty bad, not for the drastic content that has everyone up in arms, but for the presentations. I thought it was some bad writing overall, as bad as Hawkeye having mixed company conversation about who he would like to sleep wit--said conversation in the company of someone he was sleeping with at the time.

Intro page...a pretty picture.
story page 1...a pretty picture.
story page 2...a pretty picture.
story page 3...a pretty picture, not as pretty as 1 or 2.
story page 4...a picture.
story pages 5 and 6...a picture.
story page 7...a picture.
story page 8...a picture.
page 9...WE FINALLY GOT WORDS TO READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On 9 and 10, Tony Stark's head is lilted to the side in every panel. He looks like he's been drinking again. SHIELD/Avengers conflict tension is established.
Pages 11 and 12 also have words, including political satire. No traditionally recognizable members of SHIELD are present. The red alert of the villain's appearance is established, and spreads into pages 13 and 14.

Pages 15 and 16 splash, showing our heroes of Alpha, M.Mapleleaf, Puck, Vindicator, Sasquatch, Shaman, Puck 2 and Guardian. Dialogue from Shaman, as noted elsewhere, is completely out of character. Decisions are made, but not by team leader Guardian. In the seven panels (= insets) on these 2 pages, the Flight does nothing but stand there. A flaming unknown threat is approaching "awful fast" (not even "awfully fast" as someone (Heather) who's worked in the corporate world would speak. The threat is moving with a combination of running and flying, and deapite that he is afire with energy, Vindicator is not readying her geothermal suit, she's just standing there. Despite the approach of a flaming character, the artwork is dark, so I assume the "Collective"--not named so in the issue--projects flame and light that does not reflect. Neither Heather nor Mac take to the air, despite evidence of trying to see the Collective better. They just stand there, clositered together. The group does not even spread out to try to bar the Collective's path. Shaman is not reaching for his pouch in preparation. They're all just standing there, but most fists are clenched, so they look oh-so-kewl.

Pages 17 and 18, with another partial splash for a total of 3 panels, shows SHIELD telemetry cut off and Alpha defeated. They have ripped costumes, and Heather's costume damage runs over her hip and butt. Sasquatch's chest looks bloodied, and there's dark matter in the snow. The fingers of Mac's costume have been ripped away, but his fingers are still there. Sasquatch is missing no fur, and cddespite the blood in the snow and costumes in shreds, there does not seem to be any damage to the bodies of the characters.

Pages 19 and 20 is SHIELD reaction, including the statement that the enemy is "coming to America". Funny, he started in Alaska, so I guess that doesn't count as "America".

Page 21, a splash page with 3 words.

My reaction: 9+ pages that are essentially wordless do not make this issue any type of value for the $2.50.

Nice iconic cover...of the New Avengers, who do not appear in the issue, sans the two pages with Tony Stark (as himself, not Iron Man.)

This issue that was solicited as Alpha Flight's final battle could not have provided an iconic cover of Alpha Flight? ESPECIALLY seeing the Avengers did not appear in the issue!!!!!!!

The composition of theis Alpha team indicates clear intent that this is the contemporary Alpha Flight. The originals are back from space, and MML and Puck2 being with them indicates this is not an alternate-reality group or substitute Mac/s.

While I left out details of much of the dialogue (for what there was) I think the synopsis above is reflective of the writing. All the splash pages make this issue wide open as a target for complaints of decompressed storytelling.

Alpha is defeated off panel. In a way, that's good news in rectifying the story to the solicitations: This can't be Alpha's "final battle" because THERE WAS NO BATTLE! But the lack of the promised "final battle" robs further value from the price of admission and weakens the piece of writing as a whole. Considering the scant dialogue given to Alpha as reflection of how they were written, maybe that was a good thing.

The opening 8 pages of splash panels were not so dramatic that they could not have been combined into AT MOST 4 pages to give room for some action.

Everyone is up in arms about the death of ALpha. I think that energy is being wasted.

As said above, without a battle, it cannot be a final battle.
The costumes are in tatters, but the bodies are whole.
The villain seems an energy projector, but the force that took down Alpha does not show any depiction of having been "energy" other than kinetic or concussive energy. (This is another fault in the story itself, I think.)
The villain, from the media buzz (but not the published story itself) is supposedly the collective powers of former mutants. Has anyone thought that this character becomes an automatic reset for those mutants to regain their powers? The defeat of this character could automatically restore the life energies of the fallen Alphas, if they are 'dead."
The story has also just begun (not that I see promise it will be very good, based on this first installment.) Cliffhanger endings are routine, and a safe rule of thumb is to never count any character as dead until the story arc is complete.

It doesn't seem to me to be worth getting upset about. The story and presentation were not that good, and the basis of this Collective character in and of itself provides restoration of Alpha, even without stretching for "alternative versions" or other unltimately confusing "undos."

[Shaman Of The Whills]

*claps* Bravo King_Mungi, an excellent letter, and I pray that it shall indeed be read, especially because it actually provides clear and undeniable evidence as to the improper portrayal of the heroes and a disrespect to long term fans. While I can't think of an example myself, I do agree that noting an honorable Marvel death would be good (although you are absolutely right in citing the death of the Freedom Fighters as an excellent 'last stand'!), but the only deaths I have ever respected in Marvel were either retconned or weren't final battles but deteriorations at the hands of diseases. I've begun to lay out my letter, so I as well am wondering how exactly we are supposed to send such complaints to Marvel. I suppose I'll continue to follow this story arc to its end and won't give up on Marvel entirely, but only if they can provide for me a valid, believable cause for the death of the Alphans, and some illustration of their actual final stand (while incredibly unlikely, I would still like to see their final battle against this new enemy, illustrating perhaps how they got beat and how exactly they gave their lives... perhaps the only reason the battle was not illustrated in this issue is because they want to maintain the mystery element of this new threat by not showing in full the powers of the enemy, and that as the Avengers investigate the incident they will perhaps "see" the last battle of the Alphans, in a CSI/ranger instincts of Aragorn in Two Towers fashion...).

I think that over the night my attitude towards this has somewhat changed, from furious anger to a kind of tucked away hidden hope, that follows very much the attitude of Heather's words as shared by King_Mungi earlier, that as long as Alpha Flight lives on in us it can never truly died... quite frankly the Alphans have inspired me in many parts to become the person I am today, and I won't let some silly issue damage that issue of heroism for me... I'll remember Alpha Flight no matter what.

[Phil]

Let's all see what the future holds people...

[-K-M-]

I think that over the night my attitude towards this has somewhat changed, from furious anger to a kind of tucked away hidden hope, that follows very much the attitude of Heather's words as shared by King_Mungi earlier, that as long as Alpha Flight lives on in us it can never truly died... quite frankly the Alphans have inspired me in many parts to become the person I am today, and I won't let some silly issue damage that issue of heroism for me... I'll remember Alpha Flight no matter what.

Thanks a lot for the cuidos, and yeah that's the entire reason I posted those scans. They were groundbreakers that covered things others were afraid to. They are such a great team with such untapped potential.

[RatCat]

Yeah I liked the letter King Mungi. Unfortunately it won’t do any good. If they even read it they’ll just fluff you off as just another fan boy… Or worse yet, they’ll print it in the back of NA and make fun of it. They don’t care about long time fans, they only care about shock value bringing in as much cheap heat as possible… the most hate letters they get they more they feel they are doing their job.

Nope, I’ve said it on another message board and I’ll repeat it here. There is only one thing I can actually do… dump anything Bendis. Not that I was getting a lot by him anyways, but the disrespect he showed to Alpha Flight was enough to let me know that I no longer wanted to spend any money on him.

I know that won’t mean squat to anyone but it means something to me.

[Legerd]

I picked up the book today and as soon as I finished it I went to marvel.com and wrote an e-mail to them.

Where can you send them an e-mail? I just finished writing my letter and want to send it to them.



Here's the page:

http://www.marvel.com/company/feedback.htm

Put it under the publishing category.

[Powersurge]

There is only one thing I can actually do… dump anything Bendis. Not that I was getting a lot by him anyways, but the disrespect he showed to Alpha Flight was enough to let me know that I no longer wanted to spend any money on him.

I know that won’t mean squat to anyone but it means something to me.

And that IS the point. I think it has something to do with the mirror in the bathroom and sleeping at night, but whatever it is ... good for you.

One thing that really gets me is I've been looking for a way back into comic collecting (current issues) for a few months now. I could tell just by browsing through the various X-titles that X-Men (my first love) wouldn't be my way back in. That was compounded by what I've heard on the 'net about Secondary Mutations, and (doth mine ears deceive me?) a romance between Cyke and Emma "the Female Dog" Frost? "Scuse me whilst I doth puke mine (presumably) noble guts out.

Anyway, this NA 16 was fixing up to be the first new comicbook that I've bought in years. Yeah, yeah, I know ... it SAID they were going to be in their "last battle", but that can mean so many things ... and was considered bait, a lure, a lure and bait. And that purchase would have led directly into me grabbing the upcoming Civili War crossover, and then probably latching onto some title after that.

However, now I'm not sure I want to start investing in comics again. At least not in Marvel comics.

Thats alot of history and reputation to (presumably) kill ... just to establish the threat level of a new enemy. And we didn't even get to see a single punch or energy blast!!!

Lame. :? In fact, idiotic. And not "you have a low IQ" idiotic, but you have a average or higher IQ but refuse to use it idiotic.

Wouldn't it make sense to at least show a titanic battle? And rather than pissing off lotsa of different fans for lotsa differnt reason, give everybody a SHOW.

Lame. Lame. Lame.

Did I already say that?

[Powersurge]

I know what to do; we can form a crime ring, kidnap Wolverine, and refuse to give him back unless Marvel at least shows AF dying in a fight to end all fights. Hehehehehe ....

[Barnacle13]

Yeah I actually took some of the paragraphs out, new one is a lot different than that.

What is a good Marvel death that was covered?

Edit: so where can I e-mail it on marvel.com? I can't find a "contact us" page.

I thought Mockingbird's death in West Coast Avenger #102 or so was handled pretty well. She went out a hero despite some interna struggle and interteam turmoil.

[DelBubs]

Let's all see what the future holds people...
But me Alpha Flight is croaked

[Shaman Of The Whills]

I thought Mockingbird's death in West Coast Avenger #102 or so was handled pretty well. She went out a hero despite some interna struggle and interteam turmoil.

Hmm... good example... wasn't it 100 though? You know how they like killing people off on 0s... (Aunt May, Jean Grey, Multiple Man, Red Skull, Ant Man, The Leader just to name a few). On the whole though, DC is better not only at presenting the actual deaths, but concocting fun, complicated and yet reasonable resurrection stories... but thats neither here nor there. Also, while in the end kinda lame and pointless, it was nice that Thunderbird died and never really returned.


I know what to do; we can form a crime ring, kidnap Wolverine, and refuse to give him back unless Marvel at least shows AF dying in a fight to end all fights. Hehehehehe ....

I wouldn't do that, they might create a clone of him using DNA left over from the secret level of Weapon X that has remained undiscovered, or they might just sub him with a skrull imposter who believes he is the real Wolverine... and then when they finally get the real one back, things will be all the more complicated. :roll: Sounds familiar.

Also, if you haven't seen it before, you definetely need to check out X-Men: Death Becomes Them (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/218160)...

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Well, if I were a regular New Avengers reader, the dynamic between Director Hill/S.H.I.E.L.D. and Tony Stark/New Avengers would be interesting enough to hook me. Unfortunately, I bought it to see Alpha Flight's last battle, which happened off-panel and [sorry] didn't establish the really, really big threat that the collective is purported as being.

If "the collective" is tough enough to take down Alpha Flight, MARVEL should have had the balls to show "the collective" taking down Alpha Flight....especially since it was hyped as Alpha Flight's final battle!

I've always thought MARVEL wanted to kill off Alpha Flight, and if they're dead, then MARVEL did what it wanted. Moreover, MARVEL made sure that it would get the biggest share of AF fans by including the most popular ones: the originals (minus Aurora [a mutant], Northstar [a dead/resurrected mutant], and Snowbird [?]) plus Zuzha and Major Mapleleaf. No Yukon Jack, Centennial, or Nemesis (why exclude them but include the others?). No Mantlo or Steve Seagal characters (wise choice).

Having written that, my overall impression is "That's it?", not "That stinks!" It's a nice set-up for the Avengers, but I hope this is all that Brian Bendis needs to say about Alpha Flight and doesn't try to use it as a teaser or springboard to a what-happened-to-Alpha-Flight-during-the- fight-with-the-collective storyline.

A lot of pretty pictures (apologies to Kozzi), but not enough Alpha Flight.

John Byrne's response is pretty quick for somebody who doesn't care what happens to his characters. :D

[Barnacle13]

Yeah I think that Marvel, Bendis, and Quesada are getting what they wanted here. They're getting a rise out of all of the Alpha fans! I think Alpha Flight (under another guise) will return. Call it Avengers North, Provincial Patriots, or X Flight! It really doesn't matter. They will be back and hopefully better than ever. I think the uproaor will let them see that Alpha Flight can be viable. I think that's why some of the more popular and recognizable characters were included.

On the other hand, I'm very tired of reading posts about how no one cares because it was just Alpha Flight. Even some non-Alpha fans have weighed in about the disrespect for Alpha fans shown by an off panel massacre.

Even more disturbing to me, and I probably shouldn't be surprised at all, is the number of people who are discounting them as expendable for the simple fact that they are Canadian. That pisses me off! I really hate arrogant people, who think they are better than others. Unfortunately, my counrty is full of them. Hopefully none of the good people here will bite at the bait these simpletons are posting out there on other forums. Keep in mind that many of these are actually Bendis supporters as well. Nuff said!

Here's hoping the controversy will stir up a new Alpha title or Avengers Flight title. And I have to say I'd be OK with a couple of those characters staying dead if it gave the others something to avenge. At least we'd finally get to see what their last moments were like in a flashback or soemthing.

[RatCat]

I’m not bothered by people who dismiss Alpha Flight because they are Canadian…

I don’t think its right, but I don’t let it bother me. People are going to believe whatever people believe, I know that I can’t change that so I don’t waste my time or energy worrying about it.

I still don’t believe that Bendis or Joe Q has any real plans for Alpha Flight and that Bendis threw out that line to stop the backlash (the only reason I believe this is because Joe Q isn’t one to hide anything... if you read those Joe Fridays or the solicitations you know he will spoil anything and everything)

Having said that however I think that if the outcry is loud enough it will make them see that Alpha Flight is a viable property and they will be reborn soon. The only thing that will suck is that Bendis and Joe Q will (falsely) proclaim “that was our plan all along”

[DelBubs]

NRAMA: Anything serious you’d like to say?

JQ - Well as you know, Alpha Flight had a little bit of trouble in the most recent issue of New Avengers. Heck, I hear that the entire nation of Canada has declared war on Brian Bendis. Anyway, Just so Alpha flight folk don’t spend the entire weekend bummed out, don’t worry too much because there are big plans in the works for our Canadian super team. I think when it all comes to fruition; all our Marvel faithful north of the border are going to be thrilled.

http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays38.html

[Ben]

Honestly, I saw it coming, that's why I wasn't upset about the "death". It was attention getting ploy to make people take interest, talk, and buy books. Same deal as Northstar's "death". They know how to play us ;)

This is good news for sure.

BTW, in an email from Bendis I got the following


I am sure everyone on your site is thrilled with me

I posted a comment on my board. they may not be dead as much as ready for a big relaunch. so stay tuned.


Ben

[Mokole]

Yup, like I said, I figured beaten up not dead, or at least not all dead. So we get news next month (i'm thinking) on what AF will be when relaunched! Oh, I hope I'm a good guesser :o

[cmdrkoenig67]

I have to say this to my fellow AF fans(who live in/are from the great and beautiful country of Canada...which I very much like visiting on occasion)...Don't pay any attention to those needy, idiotic twits trying to get a cheap laugh(or who sadly, think they're comedians) at Canada's expense on any random message board. They're not worth the effort and as I said..they're just doing it, because they crave/feed on the attention.

Ignore it and the world will be a better place...that and you'll crush their pathetic, basement-living spirits by pretending they don't matter.

Have nice day....GO Canada!

Dana :D

[Powersurge]

Well now, that sounds good to me.

Of course, I still think that NA 16 would have been more successful if it had shown a good battle play itself out. I had the issue in my hand this very day and put it down due to it's lack of substance.

On the upside I did pick up 5 more issues of the 2nd volume, to go with the one I picked up the other week. So thats the first 6 now.

I've only read the first 2, but all-in-all I like it ... except for the fact that the clone has no nose when in costume. The art has its faults, but all-in-all it is remarkably better then some of the stuff I saw in the X-Men back in the 90's. The art's definitely acceptable, and really very good in some places.

[varo]

Honestly, I saw it coming, that's why I wasn't upset about the "death". It was attention getting ploy to make people take interest, talk, and buy books. Same deal as Northstar's "death". They know how to play us ;)

This is good news for sure.

BTW, in an email from Bendis I got the following


I am sure everyone on your site is thrilled with me

I posted a comment on my board. they may not be dead as much as ready for a big relaunch. so stay tuned.


Ben



wow. gotta say, pretty impressed by this move. pretty classy.

[Legerd]

Honestly, I saw it coming, that's why I wasn't upset about the "death". It was attention getting ploy to make people take interest, talk, and buy books. Same deal as Northstar's "death". They know how to play us ;)

This is good news for sure.

BTW, in an email from Bendis I got the following


I am sure everyone on your site is thrilled with me

I posted a comment on my board. they may not be dead as much as ready for a big relaunch. so stay tuned.

I was PO'd that Alpha Flight was apparently killed, but the real reason I was ticked is that they were "killed" off panel and so easily. As someone pointed out, Alpha is at least equal to (if not more powerful than) the current Avengers (with the exception of Sentry) so what the hell are they going to do when the Collective shows up on their doorstep? Maybe Cap can throw his shield at it, or Spidey can web it, or Wolvie can cut it... sadly that is what will probably happen. :roll:

As for Bendis... :-#



I have to say this to my fellow AF fans(who live in/are from the great and beautiful country of Canada...which I very much like visiting on occasion)...Don't pay any attention to those needy, idiotic twits trying to get a cheap laugh(or who sadly, think they're comedians) at Canada's expense on any random message board. They're not worth the effort and as I said..they're just doing it, because they crave/feed on the attention.

Ignore it and the world will be a better place...that and you'll crush their pathetic, basement-living spirits by pretending they don't matter.

Have nice day....GO Canada!

Thanks for that, it does annoy me somewhat when someone posts for no other reason than to flame people. What really bugs me however, are those idiots who badmouth AF when they (probably) have never read any of the books. And that all stems from how badly AF is portrayed in other titles!

[DelBubs]

On the upside I did pick up 5 more issues of the 2nd volume, to go with the one I picked up the other week. So thats the first 6 now.

I've only read the first 2, but all-in-all I like it ... except for the fact that the clone has no nose when in costume. The art has its faults, but all-in-all it is remarkably better then some of the stuff I saw in the X-Men back in the 90's. The art's definitely acceptable, and really very good in some places.
Not sure if your aware of this, but there's some commentary on vol 2 art processes here (http://forum.alphaflight.net/album_personal.php?user_id=234)

[Shaman Of The Whills]

Hey, I think I found some amazing proof that shows that Marvel does have the big picture in mind, that should have hinted to us that this was going to happen! Reading through old stuff this weekend I ran across issue 1 of Infinity Crusade, which as you know had Puck, Shaman and Sasquatch recruited by the Goddess. But what I found interesting was the words she spoke in order to convince these member of Alpha Flight to join her cause, words that seem quite different when read now: "You are strong souls who would sacrifice your all for the collective good of humanity." Could it be that this is all some long term after effect of the Infinity Crusade? The collective? Hmm... a mystery.

[Le Messor]

The villain, from the media buzz is supposedly the collective powers of former mutants. Has anyone thought that this character becomes an automatic reset for those mutants to regain their powers? The defeat of this character could automatically restore the life energies of the fallen Alphas, if they are 'dead."

Considering that there's no more than one mutant (Puck II, and I don't know that she -is- a mutant) in that scene, that doesn't seem likely, does it?

The line-up, apart from the missing twins, is what it should be after AF v3 ended. The rest? Yukon Jack and Snowbird got married and moved to his home. Centeniel and Nemesis are dead. Thunder formed the League of Super Pets (which means MM was powerless here). The young Plodex was with Namor. Leaving, pretty much, the team we saw.

This -was- their death scene, btw. They got barrelled. Didn't even resist. People who've defeated the Ravager, Wendigo, The Sorceror, DreamQueen, a nuclear blast, The X-Men!!! etc... taken down without a fight. There was nothing to fill in. It killed them in passing.

This is why this issue made me so angry. The disrespect. the...

I can't.

[MistressMerr]

We'll see. That's all we can do. And no matter what happens, Bendis still needs to stick to the solo titles.

[Le Messor]

Thing is, I don't -care- if AF survives their death. They should never have been taken apart that easily. Never.
Especially in something that's solicited as their final battle!

The disrespect remains.

- Le Messor
"Drive like Hell; you’ll get there eventually."

[SephirothsKiller]

The stuff about Alpha Flight being expendable to to their Canadian-ism makes me sad.... Not because i'm not used to being bashed, but because I know so many Canadians who were sick of being made fun of and have become rediculously anti-american. Its a hate spiral. :( Ah well, as long as the majority on each side respects each other than its all good.. Seriously though, i wrote Marvel a letter telling them I'm angry about the quality of their book. Basically, the whole thing about them wasting paper with full page splashed pissed me the hell off and still does. Unforgivable!

[sengsterooney]

Thought I'd add my 2 cents (belated as it may be) to the little 'preview' of AF's guest appearance in New Avengers #16.

Sucks, don't it?

Alpha as cannon fodder and 23+ years of narrative history down the drain. I don't even know how a team can rise from these 'ashes', so to speak (given how easily they were defeated) if a 'major relaunch' is planned soon. They were totally bowled over by one entity -- all's I can say is that this Collective dude had better be ripping apart some Avenger entrails before they take him/it down.

Also, it looks like 2 members of the original FF are slated for termination. What's going on with Marvel these days - they seem to be rather trigger happy. I wonder if they will be resurrected in time for the sequel to the FF movie. They did, after all, bring Colossus back in time for the X3 film. :-)

Plus, I like AF, and I'm not even Canadian. ;-)

[Shaman Of The Whills]

Also, it looks like 2 members of the original FF are slated for termination.
Just curious to know where you got this from. I've read the same thing (just to show that I'm not trying to question you), but I can't remember where, I know I've read it from two different sources. I think (hope) that one of those two deaths will be of an actual FF member (I think one report I read said it was Sue that bites the bullet, but perhaps I'm wrong) and that the second will be an old "temporary replacement" hero of the FF (Medusa, She-Hulk, etc.) If it goes two of the actual FF, I'm thinking the Storms will take the plunge.

The stuff about Alpha Flight being expendable to to their Canadian-ism makes me sad....
Yes, sadly that has gotten way out of hand. After I learned about the Flight's demise the other day and was feeling down while waiting for class, my friend asked what the problem was and I said that it was the death of the Canadian superhero team, and she laughed, not because I was upset at the 'death' of fictional characters, but rather at the Canadian element. I've gotten this alot over the past few years of Alpha Flight collection, but occasionally I actually persuade the doubters to read an issue or two and after even just a short exposure they come out with a lot more respect for the team, although I'm not sure that affects their grander view on the national scale.

[kozzi24]

I had read some time ago somewhere that the Collective was the transferred energy of the depowered mutants, as energy cannot be created or destroyed.

My thought was that if the Collective character absorbs power, as he did of the depowered mutants, he may not be limited to mutants in his current form. His defeat of AF could have been absorption of their powers, and they can be restored when the Collective is defeated. Yes, their are loopholes, such as Walter being unconscious/dead in his Sasquatch form, but I'm still convinced of the workability of the general theory that there's this already-existing reset for the House of M story, and it can easily be applied to AF's "death."

[Powersurge]

The stuff about Alpha Flight being expendable to to their Canadian-ism makes me sad....
Yes, sadly that has gotten way out of hand. After I learned about the Flight's demise the other day and was feeling down while waiting for class, my friend asked what the problem was and I said that it was the death of the Canadian superhero team, and she laughed, not because I was upset at the 'death' of fictional characters, but rather at the Canadian element. I've gotten this alot over the past few years of Alpha Flight collection, but occasionally I actually persuade the doubters to read an issue or two and after even just a short exposure they come out with a lot more respect for the team, although I'm not sure that affects their grander view on the national scale.

Yeah, generally people focus on and attack the perceived faults of their neighbours when their bad conscience keeps reminding them of their own glaring faults.

So Canada marches to the beat of it's own drum. I believe that is how the good ol' US of A was founded.

In any event political boundaries are such a stupid reason to divide ourselves ... knowing what we all know about politics. We share the same language, more-or-less the same culture, and when we meet up face-to-face we learn the obvious.

Anyway, as "Canada" is not necessarily a huge part of what I consider my identity to be, who cares. Canadian politics tend to suck as much as any other.

[sengsterooney]

Also, it looks like 2 members of the original FF are slated for termination.
Just curious to know where you got this from. I've read the same thing (just to show that I'm not trying to question you), but I can't remember where, I know I've read it from two different sources.

I think I came across it by following one of the links off a forum post about the 'fall' of AF. It could've been from a "Monday with Marts" page. I do recall in that same article/interview that Sue Storm was slated for 'termination' in that storyline.

I haven't read a Marvel comic since Joss Whedon's X-Men #10 or so - about a year ago? It looks like things have changed a lot in the Marvel Universe since then.

By the way, have all Marvel comics gone to direct market? I can't find any of them in the newsagents these days.

[Phil]

Also, it looks like 2 members of the original FF are slated for termination.
Just curious to know where you got this from. I've read the same thing (just to show that I'm not trying to question you), but I can't remember where, I know I've read it from two different sources.

I think I came across it by following one of the links off a forum post about the 'fall' of AF. It could've been from a "Monday with Marts" page. I do recall in that same article/interview that Sue Storm was slated for 'termination' in that storyline.

I think it was the last Joe Fridays over at newsarama.

[JackFrostUK]

Read the thread on Newsarama.....i can't believe some of the fans.

The Alpha got whipped in New Avengers to bring publicity to the team.
It's got people talking about the "death".
In June we could be getting a new Alpha Flight title with Northstar and co.

I think Marvel are going to put effort into a AF title this time after the massive failure of Vol. 3.

Will see how it goes.

[sinisterLemon]

This may be steering the topic away from the main conversation a bit--and I'm sorry if this has been brought up before--but, looking at the shot of the team beside their jet it almost seemed to me as if it was drawn to reflect the legendary Avro Arrow.

If anyone else sees this let me know because I think it kind of adds a dimension of coolness to the issue (even if that's almost impossible); if the artists did that kind of research to pay homage to a relatively obsure bit of Canadian history.

[-K-M-]

New Avengers #17
"Our Avengers have been mighty! Our Avengers have been assembled– and disassembled! Our Avengers have been new! Now, the newest artist to take up the pencil and assemble Earth’s mightiest, Mike Deodato, in an arc that sees their recent past come back to haunt them!

Joining the ranks of wordsmith Brian Michael Bendis, fan-favorite Mike Deodato comes aboard to give life to The Collective, and possible death to some of our heroes! Born of the energy released at the end of House of M., this new threat is the greatest one the new team has ever faced, and they will need all of their members if they stand a chance of defeating it! New Avengers (and creators) ASSEMBLE!"

I wonder if they are going to explain Alpha Flight.

[rplass]

Over at uncannyxmen.net (http://www.uncannyxmen.net), the astute reviewer for New Avengers #16 points out:


This marks the first appearance of Alpha Flight since Alpha Flight (3rd series): The All-New, All-Different Alpha Flight #12. However, that issue left such a mess, and Alpha Flight barely say anything this issue, so it is hard to tell what, if anything, has been cleared up from the third series. At the end of Alpha Flight (3rd series): The All-New, All-Different Alpha Flight #12, we had Guardian, Heather, Snowbird, Shaman, Puck and Earthmover in space. On Earth, there was Sasquatch and his team of Alphans - Nemesis III, Major Mapleleaf II, Puck II, Yukon Jack and Centennial. In addition, the past versions of Guardian, Heather, Snowbird, Shaman, Northstar, Aurora and Puck from circa Alpha Flight (1st series) #12 were brought to the present. The question begs, which Alpha Flight is depicted here? It is hard to tell. Obviously there is only on [sic] Sasquatch, Major Mapleleaf and Puck II. Centennial and Nemesis III are apparently dead, and Yukon Jack and the past Snowbird were married and moved to his kingdom. The team here can possibly be the past Guardian, Heather, Shaman and Puck, which brings up the question of where the past Northstar and Aurora are, and offers up a rather large continuity problem, as the past Heather circa Alpha Flight (1st series) #12 was not a costumed hero. While Heather is a smart woman, the past Heather could have quickly learned how to use a battle suit, but Heather circa Alpha Flight (2nd series) #1, found the geothermal battle suit, which she is wearing here, much more difficult to use then her previous electromagnetic one. If this is the case, it would mean that the real Guardian, Heather, Snowbird, Puck, Shaman and Earthmover are still in space.

It seems odd the Puck (Judd) would as he puts it ‘I’ll do the talking’ considering Guardian, Heather and Sasquatch have all lead Alpha Flight, he has not.

This hints at what might be the irrelevancy of the deaths of four of the seven Alphans, since they can be brought back from their Plodex mission at anytime. Unfortunately, Sasquatch, MM and Zuzha's deaths are not so explainable.

Love,
rplass

[cmdrkoenig67]

Over at uncannyxmen.net (http://www.uncannyxmen.net), the astute reviewer for New Avengers #16 points out:


This marks the first appearance of Alpha Flight since Alpha Flight (3rd series): The All-New, All-Different Alpha Flight #12. However, that issue left such a mess, and Alpha Flight barely say anything this issue, so it is hard to tell what, if anything, has been cleared up from the third series. At the end of Alpha Flight (3rd series): The All-New, All-Different Alpha Flight #12, we had Guardian, Heather, Snowbird, Shaman, Puck and Earthmover in space. On Earth, there was Sasquatch and his team of Alphans - Nemesis III, Major Mapleleaf II, Puck II, Yukon Jack and Centennial. In addition, the past versions of Guardian, Heather, Snowbird, Shaman, Northstar, Aurora and Puck from circa Alpha Flight (1st series) #12 were brought to the present. The question begs, which Alpha Flight is depicted here? It is hard to tell. Obviously there is only on [sic] Sasquatch, Major Mapleleaf and Puck II. Centennial and Nemesis III are apparently dead, and Yukon Jack and the past Snowbird were married and moved to his kingdom. The team here can possibly be the past Guardian, Heather, Shaman and Puck, which brings up the question of where the past Northstar and Aurora are, and offers up a rather large continuity problem, as the past Heather circa Alpha Flight (1st series) #12 was not a costumed hero. While Heather is a smart woman, the past Heather could have quickly learned how to use a battle suit, but Heather circa Alpha Flight (2nd series) #1, found the geothermal battle suit, which she is wearing here, much more difficult to use then her previous electromagnetic one. If this is the case, it would mean that the real Guardian, Heather, Snowbird, Puck, Shaman and Earthmover are still in space.

It seems odd the Puck (Judd) would as he puts it ‘I’ll do the talking’ considering Guardian, Heather and Sasquatch have all lead Alpha Flight, he has not.

This hints at what might be the irrelevancy of the deaths of four of the seven Alphans, since they can be brought back from their Plodex mission at anytime. Unfortunately, Sasquatch, MM and Zuzha's deaths are not so explainable.

Love,
rplass

Hmmmm...Interesting points...I do have to point out though, that if these were indeed members of the Alpha Flight from the past...and they are indeed dead...How will it be possible for the Guardian, Puck, Heather(including baby Hudson) and Shaman in space to continue living? If they were plucked from the past, but die in the present....their present selves will die/fade away too(unless of course, they're temporal copies, instead of the actual AF from the past)....My head hurts now.

Dana

[Ben]

Hmmmm...Interesting points...I do have to point out though, that if these were indeed members of the Alpha Flight from the past...and they are indeed dead...How will it be possible for the Guardian, Puck, Heather(including baby Hudson) and Shaman in space to continue living? If they were plucked from the past, but die in the present....their present selves will die/fade away too(unless of course, they're temporal copies, instead of the actual AF from the past)....My head hurts now.

Dana

They were plucked from one of the "alternate timelines" created by v.3 alpha's meddling, so it wasn't the past of the alpha we know.

Ben

[Barnacle13]

Would make a great story line though. What if Alpha were dead for good, and it were the real thing circa Vol.1? What would be the ramifications? Alpha Flight did a lot after issue #12. Just think of the villains left unchecked if Alpha isn't there to do their thing. On the other hand it would also ensure they never reared their heads again. Not the finality I'm looking for.

[-K-M-]

If Alpha Flight died earlier all realities would have been destroyed due to Carcass destroying it.

[Le Messor]

Is anybody else suspicious that they happened to get rid of the letters page a month before they *********d us over like that?

- Le Messor
"Economy makes men independent."