New Avengers #17 -- *Spoilers*

[Defunct]

Oh joy. . .






http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/1984/na17a0zs.th.jpg (http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=na17a0zs.jpg) http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/6637/na17b6on.th.jpg (http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=na17b6on.jpg)

[-K-M-]

You suck Bendis

[Shaman Of The Whills]

...um...does Wolverine really have to ask if that is Alpha Flight? C'MON! I must admit I like his post reaction... but what the heck is up with Spidey back there? And what exactly is up with Puck being stuck in the snow like that? Either some major inconsistincies or there is some more action in between that and their 'demise'... oh well, I'm just going to bite my lip and keep praying for miracles. They might still happen. Do we happen to have any more? Anyways, much appreciated for what we do have...

[DelBubs]

Interesting to see Persuasion there, just wondering where exactly she came from?

As for Alpha being mangled, we knew that already, so no real change in the status quo.

[Defunct]

I don't see Persuasion there. If you're referring to the woman in red and black, that's Heather.

[DelBubs]

Second page, directly above the prostrate Shaman. Wearing a bra and not much else. Could be wrong though as even MMLjr looks purple.

[Defunct]

That's Puck II.

[DelBubs]

That's Puck II.
Fair enough.

[Ben]

No biggie, just a little more Alpha exposure really. This doesn't make them look any more dead than in the last issue.

Ben

[Transmetropolitan]

You suck Bendis

Well, we knew that already but...

AMEN.

[Mokole]

So Puck is buried, Zuzha is disintegrating(?), MML is running towards her, Shaman is out, Mac is fighting, Sasquatch is getting strangled, and Heather is being burned from the inside.

You know who could beat this thing? Feedback, Leech, and Bishop.

[rplass]

Heh, you can see part of Heather's boob.

:P

Love,
rplass

[maniac mike]

...um...does Wolverine really have to ask if that is Alpha Flight? C'MON! I must admit I like his post reaction

I think why Logan says that is just the shock of seeing a super powered team he knows really well getting the snot kicked out of them.

MM

[Shaman Of The Whills]

I think why Logan says that is just the shock of seeing a super powered team he knows really well getting the snot kicked out of them
Well yeah, I feel you on that... but I mean if that was Colossus, Storm, Cyclops and Beast there... would he really ask "Is that the X-Men?" I just think that the question itself seems a little awkward, and that the only reason it was put there was for the 'witty' response of 'It was.'

Heh, you can see part of Heather's boob.
Yeah, I was kinda waiting for someone else to point that out... I am... conflicted on that. :P I mean, not very realistic...

I do also like how they say that they don't want to send in any non-powered people because that might be risky, and yet they're allowing Spidey, Spidey-W, Cage and Cap all to go, despite the fact that they all really only have very minor alterations to them... but I guess the same could really be said about most other people... so, this has to take place between Road to Civil War and Civil War... but it doesn't have any relation to the actual events of Civil War itself, no?

100th post!

[Adam]

I have no problem with this really.

Wolverine's question was more out of disbelief than as an inquiry. Plus I don't think Logan ever met some of those newer members anyways, so even if it was a question it's not that unbelievable.

Plus he has his head buried in his hands on the next page, which hopefully means they're going to explore his reaction to this.

Like Ben said, more exposure is good... and we know there's a plan behind all this from what Bendis, Miller and Quesada have hinted at.

[Defunct]

I don't think we "know" that at all.

Last we heard, there was definitely "NO PLAN" to make a new AF book.

[Legerd]

Like Ben said, more exposure is good... and we know there's a plan behind all this from what Bendis, Miller and Quesada have hinted at.



I don't think we "know" that at all.

Last we heard, there was definitely "NO PLAN" to make a new AF book.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/Legerd/stab.jpg

Right in the heart!!! :wink:

[Adam]

I don't think we "know" that at all.

Last we heard, there was definitely "NO PLAN" to make a new AF book.

Nothing confirmed, but Miller has stated that his use of Alpha is coordinated with what Bendis is doing, so there's some overarching plan for the characters that doesn't just start and end with "Bendis needs cannon fodder." That's all I'm saying.

[DelBubs]

I don't think we "know" that at all.

Last we heard, there was definitely "NO PLAN" to make a new AF book.

Nothing confirmed, but Miller has stated that his use of Alpha is coordinated with what Bendis is doing, so there's some overarching plan for the characters that doesn't just start and end with "Bendis needs cannon fodder." That's all I'm saying.
With what was said by Bendis just before NA #16, plus the utterances by Quesada, Tom B and Millar, I tend to look more at the positive than the negative. So I'm with Adam.

[Mokole]

Me too. It's not like AF fans will cripple them if they're lying, but they know the financial incentives from not lying. If the hints about AF are lies, they know that's money out the window. Forever.

[Defunct]

I think you vastly overestimate the profitability of the Alpha Flight brand.

At this point, they're trying to minimize fan backlash by saying there are "plans". But nobody has EVER said a new book was on the way, as far as I know. Certainly not Joe Q.

[DelBubs]

I think you vastly overestimate the profitability of the Alpha Flight brand.

At this point, they're trying to minimize fan backlash by saying there are "plans". But nobody has EVER said a new book was on the way, as far as I know. Certainly not Joe Q.
In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't.
Blaise Pascal
:wink:

[PWalk]

My question is what chance do the "New Avengers" have if this thing walked right through AF.

My answer... not a chance. AF would mop the floor with the New Avengers.

[-K-M-]

Mrs.Marvel held her own until what looks like she has become Binary again.

[Legerd]

Okay, the Collective just destroyed a town, some SHIELD agents and AF, but now that the Avengers are here it suddenly wants to talk? :? WTH?! And yet again an Avenger gets a power boost just in time to bring her up to a power level high enough to take on the big bad. :roll: Can Bendis get any more lame?!

[Powersurge]

Wolvie looks fairly broken up about what happened to AF. Wonder if he's thinking things might have been different if only HE had been there?

Wolverine is supposed to be leaving NA isn't he?

[Mokole]

Rumours say wolverine will be leaving NA but it's just a rumour now.

Sure, Bendis is writing pretty poorly this arc. As I said before Feedback, Bishop, and Leech could beatr "the Collective" in their sleep but Cap America and Iron man et al would easily be killed by it. Only character who'd stand a chance in heck would be... nobody in that team, maybe Spider Man if he can avoid geing caught. Wolverine's healing factor wouldn't help once he's burned to a crisp. :roll:

Prett lame, and I did say that if Marvel screws AF fans again, they'll feel it in the wallet, again. :x

[maniac mike]

Okay, this is a quote of what Bendis wrote in the Avengers Assemble letter page...

"First off, I do not hate Canadians. In fact, I'm married to a Canadian. So I am truly sorry for shocking the Alpha Flight fans. But fear not, my northern brothers, it seems that, all said and done, their defeat in NEW AVENGERS #16 was only a bit of deck clearing for the super Canucks. Alpha Flight is heading towards a major revamp courtesy of Mark Millar's CIVIL WAR extravaganza. Canada is going to be knee-deep in super heroes before you know it. So sit tight and stop defacing pictures of me in Wizard."


MM :x

[Ben]

But it's NOT happeneing ;)

LOL

Ben

[PWalk]

I'll wait and see what happens in the Cival War before I pass judgement.
I was really looking forward to a couple of pages of AF at least in battle with the Collective. 2 more panels doesn't do anything for me.

[Defunct]

But it's NOT happeneing ;)

LOL

Ben
I said a BOOK wasn't happening, which it's not. And a lot of people are assuming it will.

A brief appearance in Civil War does not a renewed Alpha Flight make.

[Adam]

A brief appearance in Civil War does not a renewed Alpha Flight make.

Not necessarily, but for the team to appear in Marvel's highest profile projects certainly can't hurt the cause.

I'm not advocating that Marvel rush out a book to appease us die hards if the market can't and won't support it, but if they want to get to the point some day where there is a new book they're going to need to go through the awareness-building that projects like New Avengers and Civil War can provide.

[Phil]

*bookmarks this thread to come back to 8 or so months down the line*

[Ben]

I said a BOOK wasn't happening, which it's not. And a lot of people are assuming it will.

A brief appearance in Civil War does not a renewed Alpha Flight make.

True, that does not make a renewed Alpha, however if you look at all the qote lately, and her are a pile of them, there is really only one person saying "nay" and now his most recent most says "maybe, I don't wanna talk about it" You must admit, there is room for many fanst to have hope, no?


JoeQ: Well as you know, Alpha Flight had a little bit of trouble in the most recent issue of New Avengers. Heck, I hear that the entire nation of Canada has declared war on Brian Bendis. Anyway, Just so Alpha flight folk don’t spend the entire weekend bummed out, don’t worry too much because there are big plans in the works for our Canadian super team. I think when it all comes to fruition; all our Marvel faithful north of the border are going to be thrilled.


Mark Millar: I just love the Alpha Flight stuff I'm reading too and plan to end MCW with the possibility of a very good, very high profile Alpha Flight book spinning out of the series. These are great characters and it's a great concept and I want it to be treated seriously or not at all. It's in Marvel's hands what happens after MCW, but they're very keen to bring back some of the old school magic we've been missing for a while and AF is right there on my list with several other characters.


JoeQ: How about if I tell you that Mark Millar will be writing Alpha Flight? Now I don’t know if that’s true or not but I think Mark may have stated that on his website this week or something. If he isn’t then perhaps enough fans can write to him and have him finally agree to write the book he was born to do.


Bendis: if they're not dead and the stage is set for a major relaunch that returns them to thier former glory as a premiere team book by an a list creative team after the underwhelming last series...

hmmm...


JoeQ: Well, there’s definitely a 100% chance that it will or it won’t happen. You’re a sneaky guy, Scratchy, you almost got that info out of me. Some good stuff is planned during and after Civil War, many old faves and even some new stuff, but you’re going to have to watch it unfold little by little and it’s way too soon, even for Joe Fridays to discuss the end of 2006 and the beginning of 2007

"Joe also spoke to the rumored Alpha Flight series by Mark Millar, saying that after “Civil War” there are many “macro plans that he mapped out.” “If there is an Alpha Flight, and I'm not saying there is,” Quesada said, “Mark Millar would probably be involved."


JoeQ: It's too early to report anything concrete so I would rather hold off until I have hints to give that are based on more than just some ideas that are circulating among offices here at Marvel. Stand by.


Mike Marts: The recent deaths weren’t editorially mandated…they more or less corresponded to the needs of the stories and the characters involved in those stories. Also—please know that all of Alpha Flight haven’t actually died.


TomB:I think you're reading into Joe's statements what you want to read into them, Scratchy. Nowhere has he said that there's going to be a new ALPHA FLIGHT series--he just said that Alpha fans will be thrilled. Not the same thing.


TomB: We have no plans for an ALPHA FLIGHT series at the moment. We have no plans for AVENGERS NORTH.
And, you know, I always adore being called either a liar or an idiot.


TomB: Again, you're taking general numbers here and making them specific and concrete in your mind. Which is dangerous. In any event, neither ALPHA FLIGHT nor any derivation of ALPHA FLIGHT is presently one of them.

Read my lips: no new ALPHA FLIGHT book planned at this time.


TomB: A wait and see. At no point in that issue (or in #17 for that matter) does anybody say that they're dead.


TomB: I think if you change all the reference in your post from "Alpha Flight readers" to "Scratchy", what you're saying holds water. You're clearly hoping for a new ALPHA FLIGHT series, and are getting so excited about the possibility that you're taking it as a given, as fact, and reporting it as such--and then getting upset when I tell you that there is no ALPHA FLIGHT book being planned at this moment.


TomB: That's because you want the answer to all your questions now, and we're not prepared to give it to you now. Have patience.

Bendis: First off, I do not hate Canadians. In fact, I'm married to a Canadian. So I am truly sorry for shocking the Alpha Flight fans. But fear not, my northern brothers, it seems that, all said and done, their defeat in NEW AVENGERS #16 was only a bit of deck clearing for the super Canucks. Alpha Flight is heading towards a major revamp courtesy of Mark Millar's CIVIL WAR extravaganza. Canada is going to be knee-deep in super heroes before you know it. So sit tight and stop defacing pictures of me in Wizard.

I know I'm missing a few, but you get the point. There is JoeQ dangling maybes, Mark Millar and Bendis doing much the same, and TomB saying "not gonna happen" then less than a week after he last says that, he answers to Varo's question about all the mixed messages "well there is stuff that I just can't talk about right now"


Ben

[Mokole]

Exactly. The Bendis and Millar comments point very specifically to an Alpha Flight revamp and potential relaunch, not just rumours that come from fan talk. No wonder I still have hope. Put it all together like Ben did, and you see that Alpha Flight is on their minds and they are talking/answering from positions of knowledge, not lying to avoid blame/attention.

[mreeez]

I think that AF will be around in some form, with or without their own title.

I'm jsut concerned about Bendis' 'deck clearing' comment. Makes me think that the AF carnage in NA #16 is permenant.

[Ben]

I think that AF will be around in some form, with or without their own title.

I'm jsut concerned about Bendis' 'deck clearing' comment. Makes me think that the AF carnage in NA #16 is permenant.

Even if it means clearing off the alternate past dupicates making room for the originals to return?


Mike Marts: The recent deaths weren’t editorially mandated…they more or less corresponded to the needs of the stories and the characters involved in those stories. Also—please know that all of Alpha Flight haven’t actually died.

So not ALL have died, meaning....what, Sasquatch MML and Zuzha survived? Time displaced Alphans didn't, dang, what a shame that would be.

Ben

[reaperbot]

[quote=Defunct]

Nothing confirmed, but Miller has stated that his use of Alpha is coordinated with what Bendis is doing

Where did he state that?

[cmdrkoenig67]

I think that AF will be around in some form, with or without their own title.

I'm jsut concerned about Bendis' 'deck clearing' comment. Makes me think that the AF carnage in NA #16 is permenant.

Even if it means clearing off the alternate past dupicates making room for the originals to return?


Mike Marts: The recent deaths weren’t editorially mandated…they more or less corresponded to the needs of the stories and the characters involved in those stories. Also—please know that all of Alpha Flight haven’t actually died.

So not ALL have died, meaning....what, Sasquatch MML and Zuzha survived? Time displaced Alphans didn't, dang, what a shame that would be.

Ben

Uh Ben...How can we know that they aren't/weren't THE Guardian, Vindicator, Shaman and Puck? There wasn't any indication(that I saw) that they were the temporal duplicates.

Some thoughts...

If they are the temporal duplicates...
Why would a temporal dupe Heather put on a suit exactly like the one the real Heather currently wears(when she was basically a wife/homemaker/secretary at that point in her life)?

I was truly hoping that Marvel would ignore the whole Vol. 3 Alpha-doppleganger bit OR say that they eventually vanished, when they weren't needed any longer. Again...If they are the temporal duplicates...and Guardian has been killed again....I will truly be disgusted with Marvel. Enough already, with this Mac is dead and then he's not stuff. It's become one of the biggest on-going problems of AF(it's own dreadful, pet running gag).

Okay....I didn't mean for that to turn into a rant...sorry. :oops:

Dana

[Shaman Of The Whills]

Well, if it makes anyone feel any better, they're still not listed under the 'deceased' page at Marvel. But then again, Hawkeye and Thor (and Phoenix) are still listed as deceased, so how reliable that is remains to be seen.

[Ben]

Dana, I know nothing of the kind, just one of many suppositions is all :)

Ben

[varo]

again, as i stated in another post, after pestering tom b all his answers seem to be along the lines of "not at this time" "at this moment" "currently" and finally being told to just be patient as nothing is ready to be announced.


i am cautiously optimistic.

[Defunct]

It would make very little sense for the Alpha Flight in New Avengers to be the time-displaced versions. If only because the Heather Hudson that was brought from the past wasn't Vindicator.

[Ben]

It would make very little sense for the Alpha Flight in New Avengers to be the time-displaced versions. If only because the Heather Hudson that was brought from the past wasn't Vindicator.

Very true, unfortunatley, AF apperances in other books have often veared from the character's true abilities. The 2 issue Wolverine apperance, where they recovered Snowbird for instance was RIDDLED with inconsistanceies. Mac's clone doing an EM burst while wearing nothing but his undies, Snowbird's corpse regenerating it's self, but Walter was really walking around in it still. Anyway, I was simply saying it was a possibility, not a fact :) I'm just eager to see the time-displaced AF go away.

Ben

[Defunct]

Well let's assume these were the time-displaced versions.


If the past selves of the current Alpha Flight were killed, wouldn't the current Alpha Flight cease to exist?

[Powersurge]

Not if they came from the past of an alternate timeline. :shock:

[Ben]

Well let's assume these were the time-displaced versions.


If the past selves of the current Alpha Flight were killed, wouldn't the current Alpha Flight cease to exist?

No, because they were pulled from one of the alternate time-lines that Alpha created by playing with time.

Ben

[Le Messor]

...um...does Wolverine really have to ask if that is Alpha Flight?

Why not? I do!

Hmm... Is it just me, or is it real appropriate right now that Mr. Brevoort is now being called Tomb?

- Le Messor
"Established technology tends to persist in spite of new technology."

[Mokole]

I really doubt that the the AF is time-displaced or not THE AF or anything like that. If Bendis thought of it that when then Heather wouldn't have been there, really. Either way I see this as Alpha Flight and that's it. Who cares about the space travel and Plodex, they're back and that's them with Zuzha and the Major.

Who's dead, what's a 'deck clearing' supposed to mean, what kind of revamp, how will Millar use Alpha Flight, who will make up Alpha Flight in Civil War, and so on. :shock:

[Legerd]

Okay everyone, I guess we can calm down a bit I just came across this quote:

Alpha Flight isn't dead, says Bendis, “only napping.” This was found at: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6930

Further more, if this quote from Brevoort can be taken at face value AF will appear in Civil War somewhere:

The only characters intentionally left out of “Civil War” are Hulk and the “Annihilation” characters, because “Hulk is on planet Hulk; characters in Annihilation because they're in space being annihilated.” Brevoort also promised an appearance by Prodigy from the Slingers. “Dead,” quipped Quesada.

And...

There is a possibility of some characters finding asylum in non-American nations during “Civil War.”
I don't know who to credit with having said this, however.

These were all found at the above link from an article posted on March 18. If these have been posted in other threads on this forum I apologize for the duplication, but would figured it was too important to miss.

Edit: I found this as well:

Brevoort said the larger Civil War storyline will see more obscure characters coming back to light, some that have been long forgotten, and some, according to Brevoort, who may be right under reader's noses.
"And isn't Mark Millar doing something with Alpha Flight?" Bendis asked.

"I think he's writing Alpha Flight," Quesada replied.

http://www.newsarama.com/NYCC/Marvel/CivilWar/report.htm

Oh they taunt us... they taunt us!!!

[Transmetropolitan]

It's okay.

I'll keep jumping for the prize that may or may not be there...

It's one of the few places I'll allow myself some optimism...

[Le Messor]

There is a possibility of some characters finding asylum in non-American nations during “Civil War.”
I don't know who to credit with having said this, however.

Of course, that technically should knock out Canada. It's in America, isn't it? Is it? Who can find it, all tucked away down there?

Of course, that was said in the USA, so it probably doesn't preclude Canada. Then again, watch Outbreak, about a heavy-infestation virus that respects international borders...

- Le Messor
Wayne opens a door and shows a bunch of spies in training
Garth Algar: What are you gonna do with these guys?
Wayne Campbell: Nothing, really. I just always wanted to open a door on a bunch of guys in training, like in a James Bond movie.

[Legerd]

There is a possibility of some characters finding asylum in non-American nations during “Civil War.”
I don't know who to credit with having said this, however.

Of course, that technically should knock out Canada. It's in America, isn't it? Is it? Who can find it, all tucked away down there?

Of course, that was said in the USA, so it probably doesn't preclude Canada. Then again, watch Outbreak, about a heavy-infestation virus that respects international borders...

- Le Messor
Wayne opens a door and shows a bunch of spies in training
Garth Algar: What are you gonna do with these guys?
Wayne Campbell: Nothing, really. I just always wanted to open a door on a bunch of guys in training, like in a James Bond movie.

Canada may be a part of North America, but it isn't part of America (as in the USA), we're a sovereign nation with seperate laws and institutions, etc. Just as we aren't affected by the American Patriot Act in the real world, Marvel U's Canada would not be affected by the Marvel U's American Super Powers Registration Act. Laws (unlike viruses) do respect borders. Of course Marvel U's Canada flirted with such an act in the past, but as far as I know it was never passed into law. If Marvel is including Canada as "American" than I guess they're including Mexico and all the countries of South America as well. If they're only including Canada then it's the typical ignorance, laziness and poor writing I've come to expect from them.

[Shaman Of The Whills]

Actually all this is kinda frustrating my mind because I'm not really sure even what the issue is exactly... this whole registration issue for me seems a bit crazy, just because it is so ill explained at this point, and if anyone can clue me in I'd be much appreciative. Is this act based around all individuals using super powers, who would then be registered to monitor their powers? Is it superpowered individuals using their powers in this grander 'fight against evil'? Is it all vigilanteish individuals acting out? Because there are several characters who would be involved under certain ones of those categories but not others. After all, what if one of these superpowered being wanted to retire? What if such an inactive character acted as a good samaritan seeing an individual being robbed on the street? And furthermore, such samaritan activities are not regulated by normal law, so why should they be in the case of superpowered individuals? Also, if it is based around just the having of superpowers, then it really just becomes an extension of the mutant registration act, which already has been covered by many of these heroes. I really just think that they need to start actually telling us what is going on, so we can get this stuff straigthened out.

[Legerd]

A quote by Iron Man states: "Anyone with powers... anyone in costume... any mutants... any of our kind is going to be required by law to reveal themselves to the United States government. In return the registered hero will be given a job as a guard in the new SHIELD Security Force. You will get to be a superhero, but you will have to answer to someone. Refusing to do so will be considered a federal crime."

Link to the page with the quote:
http://www.comicboards.com/avengers/attachments/060323134227/ff536p5.jpg


Link to the page with the page with the quote:
http://www.comicboards.com/avengers/view.php?trd=060323134227


I can't wait to see the poor schlub who tries to force Juggernaut to register. I wonder what happens if an ET like the Silver Surfer shows up? Do they need to get a special license to be on Earth?

EDIT: I thought SHIELD was a UN force not merely an American one. If they are how can the US dictate to them how they operate? :?

[Le Messor]

Refusing to do so will be considered a federal crime.
EDIT: I thought SHIELD was a UN force not merely an American one. If they are how can the US dictate to them how they operate? :?

It was. Is it?

A Federal Crime? It'd have to be an international crime, to be SHIELD jurisdiction; if they're UN, not US.

See my other posts.

- Le Messor
"And even when you've changed it all condensed it, I'm against it!" - Groucho Marx in Horse Feathers

[Legerd]

Refusing to do so will be considered a federal crime.
EDIT: I thought SHIELD was a UN force not merely an American one. If they are how can the US dictate to them how they operate? :?

It was. Is it?

A Federal Crime? It'd have to be an international crime, to be SHIELD jurisdiction; if they're UN, not US.

See my other posts.

- Le Messor
"And even when you've changed it all condensed it, I'm against it!" - Groucho Marx in Horse Feathers

I'm merely quoting what Iron Man said. (Check the link) Which is why I'm questioning how the US is supposed to make, what i think is, an international UN force obey their federal laws outside their borders. Can anyone tell me what SHIELD's current status is? Is it an American or a UN force?

[Ben]

Can anyone tell me what SHIELD's current status is? Is it an American or a UN force?

I can't say for sure, but the entry on the marvel site states that it's still an international organization:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/S.H.I.E.L.D.

Ben

[Le Messor]

I'm merely quoting what Iron Man said. (Check the link)

Quoting.
Yes.

No, I knew that, I was agreeing with you. I knew that without checking the link--I have the issue.

- Le Messor
"And let's face it Sidney, your mother was no Sharon Stone." - Stu, Scream

[Shaman Of The Whills]

Anyone with powers... anyone in costume... any mutants... any of our kind is going to be required by law to reveal themselves to the United States government. In return the registered hero will be given a job as a guard in the new SHIELD Security Force. You will get to be a superhero, but you will have to answer to someone. Refusing to do so will be considered a federal crime.
Okay, see this pretty much illustrates why I'm on the side I'm on... its too broad, and too generalized. Once again as I just posted in a very long (at least it seemed long writing it) post in another thread, I believe this is IM's attempt to coordinate all these powers for a greater purpose... but forcing those born with a trait to enlist is definetely not the way to go about it... last time I checked, we chose the jobs we have in the world, not the government... mutants for one should not have to sign up for this ridiculous draft, and I might go so far as to call it an enslavement (although the term gives me hesitation because people will automatically bring to mind the plight of African American slavery, which I certainly do not mean to indicate... nevertheless, they would be slaves to the government.) This law very much makes it a crime to be born... also, what is to be said of those who have already been 'created' by accidents and not choice? This in my mind goes against the basic values of the American system, and is most probably the reason why Cap is against it. After all, even he was a volunteer, a subject to the government's experiments... I'd very much also like to see one of the lawyers (Dare or She-Hulk) take this as a case to the Supreme Court to see how in the nine hells Marvel would even dare to attempt to explain how this would pass the strict scrutiny test that the court would use.

I can't wait to see the poor schlub who tries to force Juggernaut to register. I wonder what happens if an ET like the Silver Surfer shows up? Do they need to get a special license to be on Earth?
Well, since Juggernaut is seemingly taking up permanent residence in England, I doubt that they'd even bother to try and cross international lines (perhaps an element of what has been hinted at with heroes taking safety across border lines), and in fact he is already semi-registered with the Brits as he is now essentially an agent of the government, seemingly working off his past crimes in a very suicide squad-esque manner. That actually brings me to the next point, that it seems that they will be actively seeking to strike down the heroes who refuse to obey this law, rather than aiming to do that instead to the villains who would also be breaking this law. That should be the first priority in my mind, which certainly has not been the indication thusfar. Also, if this does extend to ETs, they will have far outstretched their bounds, as such law should truly only be applicable to American citizens. In many ways I'm hoping that this mandatory registration backfires in their faces and Earth gets hell-of-a-smashed as a result of the depletion of all the powered heroes. That'd make me happy.

I also thought that SHIELD was now international, which makes me even edgier about the actual reasonable application of this law... I might be nitpicky, but I always appreciate it when comics delve into real-world issues that they actually remain accurate to what the issues truly are... also, I might have said this earlier (but in all my blabber I've lost track of what I've said), but what if a hero wants to retire after their 'duty' to SHIELD? Work until you're dead? Is that the new policy? Would they have a choice as to the foes that they would be working against? Would they have to work on seemingly suicide runs? Could they refuse an order if they felt it unethical without fear of a reprimand? Would the government be held responsible for the death of that hero? These are the things that bother me about all of this. I'm a stickler, but I think we need the details in order to understand the true nature of the scenario posed to us (at least in deciding who is going to pick what side...)

A Federal Crime? It'd have to be an international crime, to be SHIELD jurisdiction; if they're UN, not US.
Well, arguably (and this is a somewhat flawed argument/explanation), but it would be a federal crime to refuse the registration, but not to decline the 'offer' to work with SHIELD perhaps? The way its phrased it certainly seems that the "offer" is one they can't refuse (as in you register you're recruited), but perhaps they're just saying that if these heroes are going to function they need to do so under the jurisdiction of SHIELD, which would be completely acceptable even if it is an international body, because they would thus have to be answerable to the entire worldwide community rather than just the United States, and this intrusion into SHIELD hiring policies has arguably been done by the United States before in comics, and given the firepower that would be added to their arsenal, I doubt that many SHIELDies would have that much to say in opposition.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Anyone with powers... anyone in costume... any mutants... any of our kind is going to be required by law to reveal themselves to the United States government. In return the registered hero will be given a job as a guard in the new SHIELD Security Force. You will get to be a superhero, but you will have to answer to someone. Refusing to do so will be considered a federal crime.
Okay, see this pretty much illustrates why I'm on the side I'm on... its too broad, and too generalized. Once again as I just posted in a very long (at least it seemed long writing it) post in another thread, I believe this is IM's attempt to coordinate all these powers for a greater purpose... but forcing those born with a trait to enlist is definetely not the way to go about it... last time I checked, we chose the jobs we have in the world, not the government... mutants for one should not have to sign up for this ridiculous draft, and I might go so far as to call it an enslavement (although the term gives me hesitation because people will automatically bring to mind the plight of African American slavery, which I certainly do not mean to indicate... nevertheless, they would be slaves to the government.) This law very much makes it a crime to be born... also, what is to be said of those who have already been 'created' by accidents and not choice? This in my mind goes against the basic values of the American system, and is most probably the reason why Cap is against it. After all, even he was a volunteer, a subject to the government's experiments... I'd very much also like to see one of the lawyers (Dare or She-Hulk) take this as a case to the Supreme Court to see how in the nine hells Marvel would even dare to attempt to explain how this would pass the strict scrutiny test that the court would use.

I can't wait to see the poor schlub who tries to force Juggernaut to register. I wonder what happens if an ET like the Silver Surfer shows up? Do they need to get a special license to be on Earth?
Well, since Juggernaut is seemingly taking up permanent residence in England, I doubt that they'd even bother to try and cross international lines (perhaps an element of what has been hinted at with heroes taking safety across border lines), and in fact he is already semi-registered with the Brits as he is now essentially an agent of the government, seemingly working off his past crimes in a very suicide squad-esque manner. That actually brings me to the next point, that it seems that they will be actively seeking to strike down the heroes who refuse to obey this law, rather than aiming to do that instead to the villains who would also be breaking this law. That should be the first priority in my mind, which certainly has not been the indication thusfar. Also, if this does extend to ETs, they will have far outstretched their bounds, as such law should truly only be applicable to American citizens. In many ways I'm hoping that this mandatory registration backfires in their faces and Earth gets hell-of-a-smashed as a result of the depletion of all the powered heroes. That'd make me happy.

I also thought that SHIELD was now international, which makes me even edgier about the actual reasonable application of this law... I might be nitpicky, but I always appreciate it when comics delve into real-world issues that they actually remain accurate to what the issues truly are... also, I might have said this earlier (but in all my blabber I've lost track of what I've said), but what if a hero wants to retire after their 'duty' to SHIELD? Work until you're dead? Is that the new policy? Would they have a choice as to the foes that they would be working against? Would they have to work on seemingly suicide runs? Could they refuse an order if they felt it unethical without fear of a reprimand? Would the government be held responsible for the death of that hero? These are the things that bother me about all of this. I'm a stickler, but I think we need the details in order to understand the true nature of the scenario posed to us (at least in deciding who is going to pick what side...)

A Federal Crime? It'd have to be an international crime, to be SHIELD jurisdiction; if they're UN, not US.

The Federal crime comment is obviously bad writing(an uninformed or ignorant writer?...Nah!) or a flub(I'm thinking/hoping Tony meant International crime).

...And of course, this is going to ruffle feathers and piss people off....hello?!...The series is called Civil War! People will of course, take sides...i.e. Mutants(probably most) will be offended and refuse to register, Mystics will also feel like their in the middle of a witchhunt. It's a major breach of personal privacy.

Although...what was that "Identity Disk" storyline all about? Don't S.H.I.E.L.D. or the Governments of the world already have files on most active superhumans? The Canadian Government already knows the identities of all of Alpha/Beta/Gamma/etc.. Flights. The U.S. Government probably knows the ID's of every Avenger that's ever been a member. The Russian Government must know the ID's of the Winterguard members...and so on.

What I really don't get are Captain America, Iron Man and any other Avengers just accepting this(this is probably why Wolverine will be leaving Avengers soon)....These men have spent years fighting tyrrany, domination, enslavement, etc... Why are they suddenly suddenly licking the Goverment's/S.H.I.E.L.D'S boots??? Steve Rogers even gave up being Captain America for a while, when the Govt. wanted to be his boss and tell him what to do(remember the Commission putting John Walker in the Cap costume and Steve became the Captain?). It's really out of character for them. Don't forget the trouble the Avengers had for years with Gyrich and government trying to control them?

Dana

[Ben]

I don't think it was a "flub" by Tony, if this were an international issue, there wouldn't be the deal made about super-powered people fleeing across the border. I suspect Millar is planning on having Alpha Flight protect and offer sanctuary to those coming across.


Ben

[Shaman Of The Whills]

I don't think it was a "flub" by Tony, if this were an international issue, there wouldn't be the deal made about super-powered people fleeing across the border. I suspect Millar is planning on having Alpha Flight protect and offer sanctuary to those coming across.
Even if Alpha Flight doesn't center in that role, I'm suspecting others certainly will... actually I think that the most prominent figure(s) in the other countries element will be Black Panther (I saw his rejection in the Illuminati special as a dismissal of all of these sorts of plans, and the fact that he is building up cred, is a prominent leader and is marrying Storm), Namor (although I doubt he'd really provide sanctuary, something tells me that he'll be seeking a way to protect those mutants who need it), and perhaps other foreign teams and heroes (New Excalibur, Captain Britain, Union Jack), and even in the most extreme cases perhaps the Inhumans offering safety(although as I typed it I realized how silly it sounded, especially with their general policies... in fact, I'm slightly confused as to why they're really involved in this at all, but I'm sure I'm just no seeing their role correctly).

[PWalk]

I don't think it was a "flub" by Tony, if this were an international issue, there wouldn't be the deal made about super-powered people fleeing across the border. I suspect Millar is planning on having Alpha Flight protect and offer sanctuary to those coming across.


Ben

Now that's an interesting theory. I wouldn't mind seeing that happen so long as AF gets in some action.