Nicely Summed Up

[Legerd]

Here's a great article by Paul Sebert that, in the end, quite nicely sums up why AF is going to have a helluva time getting another series.

http://www.insidepulse.com/articles/46717

[PWalk]

Wow... :shock:

That does just about sum it all up doesn't it. Great read.

[Transmetropolitan]

Considering some of AF's... checkered history...

It wouldn't be the first time Marvel conveniently ignored some continuity...

Remember Roma's gift to the X-Men? The whole, "invisible to sensors" thing?


Which never came up again.

Alpha Flight could stand to ditch a few patches of its history...

[Mokole]

It was interesting but to me well known stuff. Alpha Flight could use a bit of a break from its past, for sure, but maybe facing it and claeing up that continuity would work wonders.

Let's say Heather, Puck, Sasquatch, and Shaman alone survived New Avengers:

- Heather leads a hostile takeover of Department H. We find out that Dept. H was so big because it developed tech and research then sold it. The synthoid tech was sold to SHIELD, for example, while Woodgod's DNA profile to AIM and the Hull House kids were experiments on turning normal humans into mutants, which ultimately failed. The Canadian gov't was unaware of a lot of the deals, got wind of some such thing from Oculus, so allowed Heather to enact her hostile takeover. She is now Director Hudson.

Judd is on board as Head of Training and Espionage. Walter is head of Science and Engineering. Michael is head of Health and Medicine. Oculus works for Puck.

Albert Louis is brought in as Guardian. Witchfire is now Nemesis. Persuasion and Talisman join. Pathway has her powers, Goblyn doesn't. One new character, an Inuit paranormal, is the last member.

Other ex-Afers have no powers, courtesy HoM. Some wind up working for a fully cyborg Omega Flight, like Wyre. The Master is dead so Omega Flight are mercs, working for whoever pays them. They will get a leader soon enough.

[Shaman Of The Whills]

I voted for getting rid of some of the characters, namely because certain ones just don't really belong... although, I was actually most in favor of the 'adding' selection, but the inclusion of the AND was the part that made me hesitate, primarily because I think that many new villains should be established, while the heroes roster is certainly full enough.

[Legerd]

I voted for getting rid of some of the characters, namely because certain ones just don't really belong... although, I was actually most in favor of the 'adding' selection, but the inclusion of the AND was the part that made me hesitate, primarily because I think that many new villains should be established, while the heroes roster is certainly full enough.

I meant it as you could add established villains AF hadn't faced before as well as brand new ones, with the same being said for heroes. Sorry I wasn't clearer on that. :oops:

[Bill]

Ahhh... The Byrne era. How I miss it.

[Snowsquatch]

I think a simpler AF would work best.

Core members:

Shaman, Sasquatch, Puck, Heather
Maybe Jeffries (back in the robo-suit)

I think the other characters could still be seen ocassionally. Narya could visit Shaman in his visions. Lillian Jeffries would appear now and again.

But AF really needs some fresh villians. More than anything else, AF is missing that villian you love to hate.

I really think that Shaman and Sasquatch are the only truly indispensible characters. Then put someone in the flag-suit for a third member.

Maybe Heather and Mac could retire?

Maybe Jeffries could don the flag-suit? (Maybe a merged Box/Guardian suit? :shock: )

Could Shaman, Sassy, Jeffries, Lil, and Puck work as AF?

Lil would need a new suit. I like this idea:
http://www.alphaflight.net/character_galleries/diamond_lil/diamond_lil_fan_2.jpg

[Garry/Al-Fan]

No big surprise, there. Dept. H is rotten to the core, and the Seagle version is just plain evil and needs to be put out of commission. By Alpha Flight...who have villians who can plausibly un-do a lot of the continuity discrepancies, DreamQueen for one, Llan the Sorcerer for another. Nightmare, just for spikes sake. Headlok, messing with their minds. Loki.
Mephisto.

I like Snowsquatch's thinking outside of the box. Most incarnations try to put Heather and James in the book in odd ways that just don't seem to work. Leave 'em out for a bit, let folks miss them, then think of a good way to bring them back. But, Sasquatch in a dress is just plain wrong, Sasquatch beating up women and nobody else is doubly-wrong, and The Master breaking Sasquatch's arm is stretching it a bit, so if this is how he's going to be used...leave him out, too. Don't bring him back until he can heft an airplane or a navy battleship. Period. End-of-story.

Snowsquatch is right, though. Shake the line-up...a little.

Just read the article and I agree with Mr. Sebert's assessment. You know I'm not a big "continuity" proponent (and probably never will be) and the article explains why. Doing good stories, while de-emphasizing "the garbage," is the challenge for the next creative team that tackles AF.

I hope they are up to it.

[Shaman Of The Whills]

This kinda falls in line with some of the other suggestions... but one of the reasons why I picked the getting rid of some characters option is to instill some danger into the Alpha Flight comic... actually, ever since Mac's return, I felt like "the bubble" was back... by that I'm talking about that protective bubble that wraps around the characters like they are all pretty much invincible... now I'm not saying that they should all be in the sights and ready for termination at every moment... but we should just worry for the safety of the characters as they head into their battles... so that they have to face some true challenges and when they get out of it we're all the happier... I think one of the brilliant elements of Mac's death is that it really did shred that bubble for me in a way that so few other comics have (Countdown's BB death aside)... I'm also not proposing that there should be some kind of ever changing rotating roster... but so when one of them gets hit, we all kinda get that lump in our throats, wondering whether or not they'll make it...

[HappyCanuck]

http://www.alphaflight.net/character_galleries/diamond_lil/diamond_lil_fan_2.jpg

Heh, nice to know someone likes my little redesign (although I did a better one, imo, not too long ago - I try and post it here soon)

[Barnacle13]

I'm for a retired Mac and Heather or perhaps putting them into civillian roles within Alpha Flight.

I think the best villain Alpha Flight could have right now would be the demented Maddison Jefferies as the new Master. Hook him up with the Plodex mothership and let him start cooking. Imagine the internal turmoil the Byrne era characters would have facing off against one of their own, yet wanting to help him at the same time. Jefferies could be an A class villain. Up there with Magneto!

I'd have Sasquatch, Puck, Talisman(with the Shaman Pouch), Snowbird, a new Vindicator type character (named Province or something else a bit more Canadacentric), and perhaps Flex or one of the later V1 characters (Wild Child, Witchfire, Pathway, Persuasion, etc)

And in the first issue I'd have them pulling the Avengers or X-Men's fat outta the fire!

[kozzi24]

I voted to get rid of characters, specifically all the newbies from Volumes 2 & 3, but also later Volume 1 additions. I like Persuasion, but her power makes her difficult to write as a hero, because she would either solve the problem by controlling it, or there's endless excuses why her power does not work on each successive opponent. House of M provides opportunity for the removal of many of the later characters. "Getting rid of" does not have to mean "killing." If Persuasion, Manikin, Goblyn, and Feedback are depowered, much of the heard is culled without death. Many could become support staff. I left Pathway off the list because her power is very useful if she is utilized as a means of transportation but not a combatant, and there's story to tell if only one of those twins lost her powers on M-Day...What if Goblyn becomes the prettier sister after so long as a monster? What if the Dean parents accept Goblyn but no longer want to associate with the remaining mutant?
With the exception of the twins (their differing personalities and backgrounds add considerable depth), redundant abilities should be eliminated. It's best to use prior character motivations. Talisman should be working on her archeology degree, leaving Shaman for the field. Mac should be a scientist (an occupation that also leaves him the ability to be house husband and full-time father), leaving the adventuring to his more capable and experienced wife.
I think the failures of V's 2 & 3 has a lot to do with an Alpha Flight title without many Alpha Flight characters. The team needs villains and opponents, but the last things it needs is more members. Characters like Wildchild, Wyre, Witchfire, Nemesis, Persuasion, and, given his history since Volume 2, Madison Jeffries would all make great adversaries. Their history with the team adds a certain emotional depth to any confrontation.
One key to the success of this is to do it without info dumps or needing to show every member. One question from Puck in issue 4 "Liz's studies going well, eh?" establishes Talisman's absence. Heather's statement "I got a postcard from Kara and Albert from Cancun" establishes that Persuasion and Feedback got together after losing their powers.

The inherent problem is almost every character will be someone's favorite, so there is absolutely no way to satisfy everyone.

It's also my opinion that ignoring some history is better than revisiting it in any way, including to retcon.

[Le Messor]

Remember Roma's gift to the X-Men? The whole, "invisible to sensors" thing? Which never came up again.

Actually...

I remember one issue, where they're breaking into Genosha, and the prison controller watches the camera, seeing one person walking in, but the guards keep reporting three. She then figures out the X-Men are invading.

The, when Xavier came back, and found out about it, his reaction is, like "It's a wonder you survived without me!" I think that's about when they took it off.


Heather leads a hostile takeover of Department H. We find out that Dept. H was so big because it developed tech and research then sold it.

Kinda the plot of X-Men / Alpha Flight 2: Gary Cody has been selling Hydra the designs for Mac's suits. Especially effective in the scene where a crowd of their agents try Mac's 'stop in relation to the spinning world' trick, inside, and don't end up a smear of raspberry jam along the east wall. Or west. I don't know directions.

Mmm... jam...

- Le Messor
Glen: Anything wrong, Davy?
Davy: Yeah, I got paid today.
Glen: Yeah, I know what that's like.
Davy: No. You don't understand. They laid me off. I got one of these.
Glen: Yeah, I know how that feels.
Davy: Know what I'd like to do?
Glen: Yeah I know what you'd like to do. You'd like to find the guy who did it, rip his still beating heart out of his chest and hold it in front of his face so he can see how black it is before he dies.
Davy: Actually, I was thinking of filing a grievance with the union.
Glen: Well, the world's a twisted place.

[Snowsquatch]

I'd have Sasquatch, Puck, Talisman(with the Shaman Pouch), Snowbird, a new Vindicator type character (named Province or something else a bit more Canadacentric), and perhaps Flex or one of the later V1 characters (Wild Child, Witchfire, Pathway, Persuasion, etc)
Province? Sorry, that's really bad.

If someone else dons the flag suit, they should keep the name Guardian too. How many people wore the Captain America or Iron Man suits but still kept the name?[/i]

[Transmetropolitan]

Province? Sorry, that's really bad.

Uh, yeah... I'm a Yank, and that smells foul to me. We don't call Captain America "State."


If someone else dons the flag suit, they should keep the name Guardian too. How many people wore the Captain America or Iron Man suits but still kept the name?[/i]

As I recall, only one other man has worn Cap's suit, and he went on to an ultimately forgettable career as U.S. Agent. James Rhodes became War Machine.

That being said, with Guardian, we already have a sort of "tradition" of keeping the name, as Heather didn't change hers until Mac returned from the dead....

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I voted to get rid of characters, specifically all the newbies from Volumes 2 & 3, but also later Volume 1 additions...."Getting rid of" does not have to mean "killing." [this is the mark of (and challenge for) the writer who is willing to put in some effort, getting rid of characters that don't fit/they don't like yet leaving the door open for someone to pick them up]...I think the failures of V's 2 & 3 has a lot to do with an Alpha Flight title without many Alpha Flight characters. [Hudnall, working from a severe deficit, knew who the members of Alpha Flight were, incorporated them, and still didn't short-change the newer members, I am learning] The team needs villains and opponents, but the last things it needs is more members....Characters like Wildchild, Wyre, Witchfire, Nemesis, Persuasion, and, given his history since Volume 2, Madison Jeffries would all make great adversaries. [Barnacle suggested Jeffries-as-badguy, too, and I think this would be an excellent way to bring him back although he doesn't have to be a new Master to be one of the most formidable AF foes ever, but if he became the new Master that'd be interesting] Their history with the team adds a certain emotional depth to any confrontation.
One key to the success of this is to do it without info dumps or needing to show every member...[I really got tired of the exposition-posing-as-dialog during the...oh, you know when]

The inherent problem is almost every character will be someone's favorite, so there is absolutely no way to satisfy everyone. [too true, I've always believed; Alpha Flight is too big, but the series didn't fizzle as much as I thought after I had given up on it, and it seems like the loyalest AF fans will stick with the team, unless TPTB at MARVEL do something really insulting like pushing another volume 3 on the readers]

It's also my opinion that ignoring some history is better than revisiting it in any way, including to retcon.

This makes sense to me. My favorite parts may not be (probably aren't) someone elses favorite parts. I wouldn't want to purposely, spitefully rain on people's parade, if possible. The things I don't like, I wouldn't even touch [the Q'werlln, the S'Kar and Rok to name just a few]. Some people like all (or almost all) of Alpha Flight's history. It'll be hard to do, some folks aren't going to be happy no matter what, but if it's done well...

[Snowsquatch]

I had some new ideas for volume four, which I mentioned here: http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?p=18678#18678.

But since this is the proper place for it....

Directors of Dept H:
Mac and Heather

Alpha Flight:
Northstar
Sasquatch
Talisman
Puck II
(1-3 others?)

Mentors and Reserves:
Shaman
Puck I
Narya
Yukon Jack
Major Mapleleaf

First order of business: clarify whether AF really died in New Avengers 16, and clarify what happened to the AF that went to Plodexia.

Scenario 1. AF (time-displaced version from AF vol3 #12) were killed by the Collective. The real AF return from Plodexia.

Scenario 2. AF survives the Collective. Later, Shaman and Talisman perform a powerful spell, merging the souls of the AF on Plodexia into the time-displaced AF on Earth. Earthmover is thus abandoned on Plodexia. (See more below.)

The Team is assembled:

1. Heather and Mac retire from AF, assuming civilian leadership roles in Dept H. (They are ready as backup, however.)

2. Narya and Yukon Jack retire to Kemteron. (They too are ready as backup.)

3. Shaman and Puck I work as training operatives at Dept H, mentoring Talisman and Puck II. (They too are ready as backup.)

4. The "spearhead" of Alpha Flight is formed: Sasquatch, Puck II, Talisman, with Northstar leading. (Plus other characters, if desired. Diamond Lil, maybe?)

5. Lou Stadler has returned to the RCMP, and acts as their liaison. Unknown to Northstar or the rest of AF, Mac has been secretly preparing Stadler to eventually replace Mac as the new Guardian. (!!)

The Threats:

1. Aurora. Northstar accepts leadership of AF for the expressed purpose of dealing with his estranged sister, who is still quite mad, and has become an increasing danger.

2. Jeffries. Still Gemini, Jeffries ceases control of the Plodex ship from AF. They face immense difficulties escaping the Jeffries-controlled ship, and even after he uses it as a base to destabilize Canada.

3. Nemesis. After the tragic death of Rudy Princeton, an embittered Nemesis decides to wipe out AF, just like she promised in AF vol3 #2.

4. Earthmover. This "omega-level" mutant was abandoned on Plodexia after "the merging." The resettlement of Plodexia is a failure. An embittered, deranged Earthmover returns to Earth with an army of mystically re-crafted Plodex. Being both a mutant and a mystic, Earthmover represents a serious threat to AF, and he is also resentful that Shaman has decided that Talisman is now his protege again.

In other words, lots of "embittered" ex-Alphans with very personal grudges against our heroes, and serious mental disturbances on top of that. When it's all over, any of the four could be dead, incarcerated, institutionalized, or perhaps redeemed and returned to AF.

(Just so long as they aren't killed. How many times were Ernest, Gilded Lily, Nemesis, etc killed and returned to life later? Too many.)

The Tensions:

1. Northstar versus Heather. Mac had always believed Jean-Paul could be a natural leader, but Heather is skeptical. Dept H need to learn to tell Northstar what to do, and let him worry about how to do it. Northstar needs to learn to check his own ego in order to lead AF effectively.

2. Northstar versus Sasquatch. For obvious reasons, the capture/rescue of Aurora is perceived differently by her brother and former lover. Sas isn't happy with Northstar as leader, but he doesn't want the leadership himself, accepting the situation as a necessary evil to save Aurora. Over time, Sas begins to respect Northstar's leadership.

3. Eugene mentors Zusha Yu. Zusha admires Northstar immensely (and perhaps has a crush, too). Her hero-worship of Northstar (and Eugene's distaste for Northstar's arrogance and showboating) make the mentoring difficult. Of course, Eugene is not the best role model, having abandoned Zusha and her mother years ago. Many fences to mend, here.

4. Shaman mentors Talisman. All fences are mended here, but Shaman faces a new challenge, as Elizabeth has become prone to the same depression that has haunted Michael throughout his life. Interestingly, Liz finds Northstar's success over depression to be inspirational, but finds Shaman's advice to be hollow.

5. Zusha-Stadler-Northstar love triangle. Yes, Zusha loves Lou, but has a crush on Northstar. Wouldn't it be funny if Jean-Paul also had a crush on Lou? (!!)

That's all my brainstorming could develop tonight. Thoughts?

[Obsidian3d]

I have to say that this idea of yours really looks solid. It could easily be put together into an interesting, exciting, character-driven story. There's a lot to work with and lots of directions to go. If the folks at Marvel ever take a look at this site they'd do well to take some or all of your ideas into consideration! Some really good ideas in this one.

[Powersurge]

Province? Sorry, that's really bad.


I think that Guardian is a good Canadian-spirit name. Peacekeeper might be okay as a sub., but please NOT province. :-)

As for how to recast AF... I'd say forget about Byrne, and maybe look at what Claremont contributed. It was him and Byrne did together that really captured my interest in the team. Just Byrne was... not up to par with the man's other work.

[Snowsquatch]

As for how to recast AF... I'd say forget about Byrne, and maybe look at what Claremont contributed. It was him and Byrne did together that really captured my interest in the team. Just Byrne was... not up to par with the man's other work.
Them's fightin' words!! ;)

[cmdrkoenig67]

Some of that looks pretty good, Snowsquatch....However...If one examines the dream teams/best leader people are choosing(as opposed to one person's choice)in that thread...

The majority overwhelmingly want Heather as leader(with up to 22 people saying they prefer her as leader...and I only got to about page 13) and most people wanted the original line-up. Mac got about 6 votes from those who wanted him as leader(remember...I only got to about page 13) and Puck with 8 votes. Heather beats them all bloody. Hardly anyone voted for Walter(sorry Walt).

That should tell people something right there.

Dana



I had some new ideas for volume four, which I mentioned here: http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?p=18678#18678.

But since this is the proper place for it....

Directors of Dept H:
Mac and Heather

Alpha Flight:
Northstar
Sasquatch
Talisman
Puck II
(1-3 others?)

Mentors and Reserves:
Shaman
Puck I
Narya
Yukon Jack
Major Mapleleaf

First order of business: clarify whether AF really died in New Avengers 16, and clarify what happened to the AF that went to Plodexia.

Scenario 1. AF (time-displaced version from AF vol3 #12) were killed by the Collective. The real AF return from Plodexia.

Scenario 2. AF survives the Collective. Later, Shaman and Talisman perform a powerful spell, merging the souls of the AF on Plodexia into the time-displaced AF on Earth. Earthmover is thus abandoned on Plodexia. (See more below.)

The Team is assembled:

1. Heather and Mac retire from AF, assuming civilian leadership roles in Dept H. (They are ready as backup, however.)

2. Narya and Yukon Jack retire to Kemteron. (They too are ready as backup.)

3. Shaman and Puck I work as training operatives at Dept H, mentoring Talisman and Puck II. (They too are ready as backup.)

4. The "spearhead" of Alpha Flight is formed: Sasquatch, Puck II, Talisman, with Northstar leading. (Plus other characters, if desired. Diamond Lil, maybe?)

5. Lou Stadler has returned to the RCMP, and acts as their liaison. Unknown to Northstar or the rest of AF, Mac has been secretly preparing Stadler to eventually replace Mac as the new Guardian. (!!)

The Threats:

1. Aurora. Northstar accepts leadership of AF for the expressed purpose of dealing with his estranged sister, who is still quite mad, and has become an increasing danger.

2. Jeffries. Still Gemini, Jeffries ceases control of the Plodex ship from AF. They face immense difficulties escaping the Jeffries-controlled ship, and even after he uses it as a base to destabilize Canada.

3. Nemesis. After the tragic death of Rudy Princeton, an embittered Nemesis decides to wipe out AF, just like she promised in AF vol3 #2.

4. Earthmover. This "omega-level" mutant was abandoned on Plodexia after "the merging." The resettlement of Plodexia is a failure. An embittered, deranged Earthmover returns to Earth with an army of mystically re-crafted Plodex. Being both a mutant and a mystic, Earthmover represents a serious threat to AF, and he is also resentful that Shaman has decided that Talisman is now his protege again.

In other words, lots of "embittered" ex-Alphans with very personal grudges against our heroes, and serious mental disturbances on top of that. When it's all over, any of the four could be dead, incarcerated, institutionalized, or perhaps redeemed and returned to AF.

(Just so long as they aren't killed. How many times were Ernest, Gilded Lily, Nemesis, etc killed and returned to life later? Too many.)

The Tensions:

1. Northstar versus Heather. Mac had always believed Jean-Paul could be a natural leader, but Heather is skeptical. Dept H need to learn to tell Northstar what to do, and let him worry about how to do it. Northstar needs to learn to check his own ego in order to lead AF effectively.

2. Northstar versus Sasquatch. For obvious reasons, the capture/rescue of Aurora is perceived differently by her brother and former lover. Sas isn't happy with Northstar as leader, but he doesn't want the leadership himself, accepting the situation as a necessary evil to save Aurora. Over time, Sas begins to respect Northstar's leadership.

3. Eugene mentors Zusha Yu. Zusha admires Northstar immensely (and perhaps has a crush, too). Her hero-worship of Northstar (and Eugene's distaste for Northstar's arrogance and showboating) make the mentoring difficult. Of course, Eugene is not the best role model, having abandoned Zusha and her mother years ago. Many fences to mend, here.

4. Shaman mentors Talisman. All fences are mended here, but Shaman faces a new challenge, as Elizabeth has become prone to the same depression that has haunted Michael throughout his life. Interestingly, Liz finds Northstar's success over depression to be inspirational, but finds Shaman's advice to be hollow.

5. Zusha-Stadler-Northstar love triangle. Yes, Zusha loves Lou, but has a crush on Northstar. Wouldn't it be funny if Jean-Paul also had a crush on Lou? (!!)

That's all my brainstorming could develop tonight. Thoughts?

[Snowsquatch]

I seem to have forgotten a couple of "continuity" issues, like:

a. Aurora and Northstar appearing in X-Men #189. (see http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=1300 ). I don't normally read X-Men, but I am very interested to see what is gonna happen there.

b. Mac and Heather's child. I don't want to leave the child abandoned on Plodexia. Maybe in the "soul-merging" scenario, the souls of the time-displaced Mac and Heather go to Plodexia, not the other way. Thus, we have another reason for Northstar to take the lead of AF.

I wouldn't leave them out in space for long. I'd bring them back within 6 issues or so. (Why leave that kind of loose thread hanging for years and years? I hate too many loose ends, and the AF series has way too many already.)


The majority overwhelmingly want Heather as leader(with up to 22 people saying they prefer her as leader[...]
Including me. (Just look at my AF movie scenario.)

I still see her as leader, just in a different capacity. My "concept" here is just a plausible excuse to bring back Northstar to AF. Would he come back just to take orders from Heather? I don't think so. But would he come back to lead the team just so he can save his sister? And would he stay?

Also, I'm not suggesting we never see Heather in battle. I would definitely love to see Heather back in the red'n'white battlesuit and kicking @$$. I just think we need to only see it less, and focus on other characters more.

(I can imagine a conflict on two fronts, with the Northstar-led spearhead fighting an Aurora-led gang of gun-toting goons, and the Hudsons-Shaman-Puck group fighting inside the Jeffries-controlled Plodex ship at the same time. :shock: )

I'm also thinking in terms of character dynamics. For example, I see lots of possible developments in the Eugene-Zusha relationship, but the Mac-Heather thing is kinda saturated. They have a new focus now: a child. I wanna see how that plays out.

And remember: neither Mac nor Heather ever really wanted to lead AF. I think having them move from AF to Dept H is a logical character development. (But that's just me.) They both began leading AF as civilians, but circumstances required otherwise. Now, they can do things the way they always wanted to.

Moving Mac and Heather to Dept H does one last thing: removes the endless stream of boring third-tier civilian characters that have represented Dept H. Now, "Dept H" can really mean Department Hudson!

Finally, a big part of this new lineup would be flexibility. My concept is very open-ended. Northstar might be a failure as a leader, forcing Heather to lead again.


...and I only got to about page 13) and most people wanted the original line-up. Mac got about 6 votes from those who wanted him as leader(remember...I only got to about page 13) and Puck with 8 votes. Heather beats them all bloody. Hardly anyone voted for Walter(sorry Walt).

That should tell people something right there.
I won't tolerate any Sasquatch abuse here. You have been warned. ;) I just can't imagine AF without him. I definitely don't want him as leader, though.

I agree: give people what they want. I think I'm doing that. No one is being taken away. In fact, I'm bringing back as many classic Alphans as possible. The "semi-retirement" of characters is just a framework for character interactions.

I am keeping Heather and Aurora (for instance) but in drastically different roles. They will still be prominent in the pages of AF. And those roles can still evolve. If AF is successful in redeeming Aurora, we could see her rejoin. If Northstar is a screw-up or injured, Heather can step in.

Splitting the team into "spearhead" and "semi-retired" is just an excuse to explore different character interactions. Shaman is mentoring Talisman, but that doesn't mean we can't have an issue or two focusing on just them, or that he won't pop in to save her if she gets in over her head.

We can expect regular appearances by everyone. Just think "Byrne era," when each issue focused on 2-4 characters, not all 10+ characters.

My "concept" here is just a way to:
1) develop the needed villains,
2) pickup characters who have been dropped (like Talisman),
3) maintain continuity,
4) sew up loose ends (like the Eugene/Zusha thing),
5) explore old themes in new ways (like shifting Shaman's depression to Elizabeth, or give new life to the Northstar-Heather tension), and
6) avoid re-hashing old concepts.

I can't be clearer: I would love to see a book with the classic AF lineup of Mac, Heather, Snowbird, Shaman, Puck, Sasquatch, Northstar, and Aurora. That would rock. But, if that means a lot of #6 (and very little of #1-5), why bother?

Let me say this again: Splitting the team into "spearhead" and "semi-retired" is just a framework to explore different character interactions.

I'm not deeply "committed" to these ideas or anything. These are just recommendations on how Marvel could re-invigorate Alpha Flight. No specific idea here is "essential." Have stuff like "Northstar as leader" or "Talisman inherits Shaman's depression" is just brainstorming.

[Snowsquatch]

One last scenario: Both Heather and Mac lead Dept H, but in different capacities. Mac leads the "research" side while Heather leads the "operations" side, so Alpha Flight answers directly to her.

Now, "Dr James Hudson" can focus on his passion for science. He hasn't done much since creating the battlesuit. Time to get back in the saddle, James!

I would also like to see a little more focus on the three "doctors" of AF: Mac, Walter, and Michael. We need to see more story-lines emphasizing how brilliant these men really are. They have the whole Plodex ship to study alien technology. Also, many AF story-lines involve the mental disorders of various characters. Shouldn't a trained physician like Shaman have something to contribute in treating these types of things, or know someone who does?

[cmdrkoenig67]

Hey...No Sasquatch abuse intended, Snowy...I love Walt. I was just saying there were very few votes for him as leader.

Dana :wink:

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...3. Nemesis. After the tragic death of Rudy Princeton, an embittered Nemesis decides to wipe out AF, just like she promised in AF vol3 #2...
...Thoughts?

The Lobdell version of Nemesis has the sword semi-sentient/sentient/the source of her power. This sword should be getting fed up with "Amelia" if it takes her nearly 100 years to exact vengence for whatever it is that needs avenging. I don't think gutting Alpha Flight is the reason. Moreover, if the Canadian government and/or Walter can capture her, I don't think this sword would think much of her as a vessel of retribution.

This is getting awfully close to just putting ordinary people in costumes.

Okay, are Mac and Heather going to take over Dept. H with Proctor, Su, and Oculus still running around? In vol. 2, didn't Dept. H brainwash all of Alpha Flight, easily? What will stop them from doing it again? Do Mac and Heather even remember who Proctor, Su, and Oculus are?

I think starting with vol. 3 as the jumping off point will be a grave mistake and worsen an already-bad situation.

[Mokole]

I like the idea of Mac being the Science/Tech head of Department H, Heather being Operations Manager. Department H run by a committee of Puck, General Chasen, and both Hudsons. AF is under Heather's authority.

Omega Flight becomes a totally tech group, Wyre joins, they officially become the Hardliners, with a murky leader in the background.

Dreamqueen gets support on Earth and must be fought too.

Aurora and Northstar are enemies, however I don't have a firm idea how yet.

Box is used by SHIELD to cause havoc in Canada after the Civil War (revenge against those darn pacifist Canucks!), he winds up becoming a Hardliner. Yes, I do know who the Hardliner 'bankroller' is but I'm not saying yet.

An AF team made up of 5-8 is best. Sasquatch, Guardian (Feedback), Shaman, Talisman, Nemesis (Witchfire), Snowbird, Zuzha Yu.

[Snowsquatch]

The Lobdell version of Nemesis has the sword semi-sentient/sentient/the source of her power. This sword should be getting fed up with "Amelia" if it takes her nearly 100 years to exact vengence for whatever it is that needs avenging. I don't think gutting Alpha Flight is the reason.
I don't think so either.

The next writer of AF has a big challenge: sew up the fractured continuity of Nemesis. I suggested one way here already: http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?p=16490#16490

And a correction to my own words: ("none of that is consistent with Nemesis in AF version III, but very consistent with Byrne's AF.") I now think my "revision" is compatible with vol 3, which never gave us the full back-story of Amelia/Nemesis.


This is getting awfully close to just putting ordinary people in costumes.
You say that like it's a bad thing. Guardian? Vindicator? Iron Man? the Greatest American Hero? ;)


Okay, are Mac and Heather going to take over Dept. H with Proctor, Su, and Oculus still running around?
No, those third-tier characters should just be dumped. Why clog the series with boring side-characters?


In vol. 2, didn't Dept. H brainwash all of Alpha Flight, easily? What will stop them from doing it again?
That would be the reason Mac and Heather have now taken over: to stop the abuse of Dept H's authority.


I think starting with vol. 3 as the jumping off point will be a grave mistake and worsen an already-bad situation.
I don't see vol 3 as the "jumping-off point." A good writer could mention (and dismiss) the worst absurdities of vol3 and vol2, and quickly move on with the new vol4 story-line. I would just prefer a quick-fix of dangling threads, rather than a radical retcon.

Besides, I think the whole purpose of leaving two AFs in place following vol3 was just so they could dramatically kill one of them off (which is exactly what happened). I have speculated on how Marvel could "fix" continuity if the time-displaced AF survived the Collective, but I don't think that's the real plan. I suspect that Marvel will build a new AF series with the space-faring originals, plus Sas and Puck II surviving the Collective.

(Or, Marvel could pull a simple "Dallas" retcon by suggesting vol3 #9-12 were just a dream or something, but that's the lazy solution.)

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...I don't see vol 3 as the "jumping-off point." A good writer could mention (and dismiss) the worst absurdities of vol3 and vol2, and quickly move on with the new vol4 story-line. I would just prefer a quick-fix of dangling threads, rather than a radical retcon....

This would work for me, too.

My feeling is Nemesis will be one person, regardless of whatever differences there may be between a living embodiment of retribution and an anarchist. There is a difference between James and Tony, neither of whom are ordinary, and Nemesis: either as an agent of retribution or anarchy, Nemesis is someone dead come back to avenge a wrong that needs avenging; only James and Tony can fully appreciate and utilize the capabilities of their suits, and it should be the same way with Nemesis. Otherwise, any woman could put the suit on and call herself "Nemesis," regardless of whether anything needs avenging or not. This is what the vol. 3 version is, and I just don't think that's the best way to envision this character.

Both General Clarke and Major Chasen predicted the demise of Dept. H in # 92 (?), the same issue that also has the Nth Projector file on the monitor screen.

How any writer be will able to stay away from all the boring, third-tier characters is beyond me.

from ANADAF# 5 (words by Scott Lobdell), regarding the Plodex ship:

Sasquatch's word balloon: "---and we fight a thrrrreee---thousand-yearrrrr--old ship?!"


Simon Furman reference to the Plodex ship, AF# 112:

The Master's word balloon: "...I thought you'd had such degrading foibles removed millenia ago, when the Plodex restructured your mind and body."


Fabian Nicieza's reference to the Plodex ship, AF#96:

The Master's narration caption: "Now I can fulfill my destiny and don the mantle of superiority I earned forty thousand years ago by being the one who reached the Plodex ship!"


Who's right? Is the ship only three thousand years old? Who's going to "fix" this?

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'd have to go with the original writer on the age of the Plodex ship...John Byrne.

Dana

[Legerd]

I'd have to go with the original writer on the age of the Plodex ship...John Byrne.

Dana

Agreed. If you accept the Master's history then you have to accept the ship has been there for forty thousand years not just three.

[Snowsquatch]

I love quoting myself. ;)


First order of business: clarify whether AF really died in New Avengers 16, and clarify what happened to the AF that went to Plodexia.

Scenario 1. AF (time-displaced version from AF vol3 #12) were killed by the Collective. The real AF return from Plodexia.

Scenario 2. AF survives the Collective. Later, Shaman and Talisman perform a powerful spell, merging the souls of the AF on Plodexia into the time-displaced AF on Earth. Earthmover is thus abandoned on Plodexia.
Ok, two more possible scenarios:

Scenario 3. There is no time-displaced Alpha Flight. How's this for a very minor retcon: Shaman's spell didn't work as expected. Instead of pulling AF forward from the past, it pulled them back from the Plodex ship in the present (plus pulling the twins from where they were). Thus, there are no duplicates at all. (Earthmover and the Hudsons' child are still on the Plodex ship, just like in scenario #2.)

I think this solution is the best, because it's the simplest. (AF thinking "we were just at the Roxxon Headquarters" could be explained as a by-product of the magic spell.)

I don't think the new writer would have to focus on this issue. It could be mentioned and dismissed in one panel. Heck, it could be mentioned and dismissed in the letters page.

The point is: salvage as much as is good from volume 3, maintain continuity, and carry on with a new story arc (containing actual super-villains, I freakin' hope!!).

Scenario 4. Issues 9-12 never happened. Nemesis dreamt it. Maybe the scrambled eggs didn't agree with her.

This means that AF returned from the Plodex mission, and the tale of those events remains to be told. (Is anybody interested in an AF story-line involving the resettlement of the Plodex homeworld? I'm not.)

I don't think scenario #4 has any significant advantages over scenario #3, but I'm just putting it out there anyways.


Earthmover. This "omega-level" mutant was abandoned on Plodexia after "the merging." The resettlement of Plodexia is a failure. An embittered, deranged Earthmover returns to Earth with an army of mystically re-crafted Plodex. Being both a mutant and a mystic, Earthmover represents a serious threat to AF, and he is also resentful that Shaman has decided that Talisman is now his protege again.
I made a mistake here: Earthmover isn't a mutant, only a mystic. I still think Marvel should make him a villain for AF. Bonus: he obviously has the Hudson kid hostage. [cue drama music]

BTW, what's with Earthmover's "Llan-inspired" haircut? :lol: Is that a not-so-subtle clue? :shock: