Would You Sign The Superpowers Registration Act?

[Legerd]

If you had to sign the Superpowers Registration Act would you?

[DelBubs]

I went for the peeling from a cold dead body scenario. Allowing any registration of people because they may be different than the norm just sets a precedence. In a fantasy world like the MU it wouldn't have the ramifications it would have in our world. In our world it would be all to easy to then implement a registration of all the homosexuals etc.

[Shaman Of The Whills]

Well, given my previous longwinded posts in other threads (and the fact that at the time of this posting there has been only one selected option), I think it is pretty obvious where I line up on this issue. In fact, I'm not entirely even sure that one of the options is valid (an indication of how extremely fascist this legislation is). I would rather give up my heroic career than reveal my identity. From the wording up to this point, this seems quite impossible, demanding that all individuals with powers (even possibly those not able-bodied enough to do so) would have to sign up and join the forces of SHIELD. "Retirement" from the superhero game would be impossible.

[Powersurge]

I didn't find an option for myself. I'm not what you would call a flag-waving type of person, and have no strong political beliefs or affiliations. However, I do believe it is hypocritical to defend a system you think is inherently flawed/immoral ... especially when you have the power to oppose and replace it. And I believe in the people, the common weal, and the idea that law evovled out of the collective will and exists to serve the common weal.

So, as reigstration seems to work well enough for the rest of us ... who are registrered with the governement in all sorts of various ways, I see no reason to be alarmist about it. and as I see alot of good coming from it, going far beyond super-powered police forces, concerted "War" efforts vs. crime .... such as in terms of health and welfare and search and rescue and reshaping environements, etc, etc. etc. I fully endorse registration.

If nothing else, you are putting a whopping load of courageous and heroic people into regular contact with each other. So, if any governement were to try something fishy, they would already have enabled their own defeat. Divide and conquor is the path to depowering the enemy, not unitung them. Just ask CSIS who apparently had to learn the hard way.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I picked "peel my costume from my cold, dead body!" too....It's just wrong.

Dana

[Powersurge]

I picked "tearing my costume from my cold, dead body"(paraphrased) too....It's just wrong.

Dana

Well then, lets just tear up our SIN cards, our Birth Certificates, our Police Id's, our Medical Degrees, our car liscences, our liscences and reigistrations to own and/or carry firearms, to practice law, to practice medicine, our citizenship cards, all laws on record, and oppose these stinking "Nazi's" together then. Im with ya all!!

[cmdrkoenig67]

Now you're just being silly.

Dana

[Mokole]

I picked "because I have to", like car insurance, user fees, food tax....

[DelBubs]

I picked "tearing my costume from my cold, dead body"(paraphrased) too....It's just wrong.

Dana

Well then, lets just tear up our SIN cards, our Birth Certificates, our Police Id's, our Medical Degrees, our car liscences, our liscences and reigistrations to own and/or carry firearms, to practice law, to practice medicine, our citizenship cards, all laws on record, and oppose these stinking "Nazi's" together then. Im with ya all!!
But surely everyone has to have all the items you listed and not just a select few who are asked to register that they are different than the majority. Once you aquiese to be labeled then a precedence is set for others to have to register as (considered) different also?

[Shaman Of The Whills]

Well then, lets just tear up our SIN cards, our Birth Certificates, our Police Id's, our Medical Degrees, our car liscences, our liscences and reigistrations to own and/or carry firearms, to practice law, to practice medicine, our citizenship cards, all laws on record, and oppose these stinking "Nazi's" together then. Im with ya all!!
I must admit that I should know better than to respond to such provoking, but instead I'm going to attempt to respond as rationally as I possibly can to these claims, despite the fact that I'm very emotionally tied to the issue.

Registering birth of human beings is not the same as registering superpowers. Registering superpowers is for the purpose of monitoring the activities of the individual, to restrict and control them. A birth certificate serves no other purpose than to simply identify an individual, and is used as a means to facilitate an individual's interaction with certain elements of society.

More comparable is police and medical liscenscing, in which an individual has chosen to go through significant training and has earned the liscence, thus making them accountable for their actions. However, the superhero registration act is for no such purpose. It does not posit that they should be given any such training but rather just that they should be monitored and controlled. They would become soldiers, to follow the orders of superior officers, and as you've pointed out, the most powerful of them are potentially weapons of mass destruction, and putting them into the hands of a questionable military operation is itself a danger. Most importantly, the act is not based around individuals who have chosen this path, but rather all people who possess such talents. While we have certain recruitment attempts in practice, encouraging the best of the best to follow these paths, they are by no means bound to it. In this case they would be. Again, my problem is this.

Also, while these beings themselves may have substantial destructive power, I do not believe they should not be considered to be firearms. My arguments on this have already been expressed I believe, and you've already rejected those, so I won't bother to express myself again.

And as to the claim on laws, yes, I do believe that this law should be destroyed. It does not, as it claims to do, serve the people, but rather restricts the freedoms of individuals in exchange for a more powerful military operation. The desire to abolish one law does not imply the abolition of all laws. As such, I've already posed the exact path by which I would like to see it shot down, as has happened many times within the history of the United States. The Supreme Court was created for the exact purpose of making sure that those fundamental rights are ensured, and I believe that in a realistic scenario they would be the ones to handle this catastrophe with ease. Additionally, this would not even be that much of an issue because they would issue a stay of the act, making it unable to go into effect until such a decision would be reached. However, I doubt this will ever come to fruitition, as it wouldn't make for the same good heated drama that it promises to now.

While I understand that we disagree on these ideas, and enjoy discussing them even with passion, can we try and keep it as civilized as possible?

I picked "because I have to", like car insurance, user fees, food tax....
Okay, I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but all of these listed examples are voluntary choices... in fact, listing them really smacked me in the face because I realized that I'm not entirely sure whether or not I might or might not submit to the act... all those things are voluntary on behalf of the citizen, but as a result of the necessity of paying those fines (unavoidable almost) we go ahead and do them anyways... and admittedly if I had powers I would do nearly anything I could in order to use them... including such a registration... still, I'd be hesitant to do so on the basis of the compulsion... if it were no actually a forced measure (as is the case with those listed above), then I would most probably be whole heartedly for it.

Edit: But surely everyone has to have all the items you listed and not just a select few who are asked to register that they are different than the majority. Once you aquiese to be labeled then a precedence is set for others to have to register as (considered) different also?
Well put! Much better than I could ever put it.

[Powersurge]

By the same token does it not set a bad precedent once you allow one group to put on mask and mete out justice according to their own will and whim? Do you not open the door for anyone to do that?

And really, how do you know who is under the mask at any given time?
What stopping Erbert the Pervert from puttign on a Spidey costume and luring young children away? Or YOU placing your trust in someone you thought was a hero, only to find out the hard way that anyone can don a costum and put on an act?

I oppose the double standard. If THEY can regularly hide their identites, kick down doors, and smash peoples faces in for acts THEY perceive to be wrong, then so can you or me or anyone. If they can walk about casually with the destructive power of a nuke a mere whim of their will away, then whats the big deal about me owning or carrying or using an assualt rifle whenever I please or stock piling weapons ... like an Iron Man or other tech.head? That is the message THEY are sending. However, if thats the WRONG message to be sending, and it is, then the so-called heroes need to get with the same programm all of us are held to and begin sending the RIGHT message and operating on the RIGHT side .... that of the people and state/s they claim to care about and want to protect, as opposed to their own side.

And if people suck so bad. If our governements are so irremdeemably evil, then start acting like heroes ... oppose us and topple them.

[Ben]

One of the big probmes I see with having a database of identities is the possibility of it falling into the wrong hands. How often have organizations like AIM, or HYDRA stolen governemt information? And look, they nearly totally destroyed SHIELD at on point! Many of those who secret thier identities are for the sake of the ones they love. If it becomes known who and where these super-powered people are, thier families are instantly at risk.

Ben

[Legerd]

One of the big probmes I see with having a database of identities is the possibility of it falling into the wrong hands. How often have organizations like AIM, or HYDRA stolen governemt information? And look, they nearly totally destroyed SHIELD at on point! Many of those who secret thier identities are for the sake of the ones they love. If it becomes known who and where these super-powered people are, thier families are instantly at risk.

Ben

True, but at this stage of the game do you think the premier policing organization SHIELD would not already have dossiers on just about every known hero and villain already? Storywise it makes perfect sense to me that Nick Fury would have been doing this over the years whether it was out of a sense of being prepared for any eventuality (as with the Xavier Files in the X-men) or just plain paranoia on the part of his superiors.

[Powersurge]

Undercover cops are often required to infiltrate organizations; and ones that are known to have cops of their own on the organizational payroll at that! And both they and their families are at equally risk of reprisal if discovered. If a regular Joe-Cop can shoulder the task, why not a super-duper man?

Reflecting on the actual matter as Shaman keeps trying to point out, ie. the propasal as present by Iron Man forces all registered into SHIELD service ... I have to clarify that I am very much against the indentured servant model being proposed. Not all metahuman powers have practical military or law enforcement application, and there currently exists enough willing combatants that no one should have to be pressed into an unwanted profession.

So, I guess if those are the terms, I must oppose the Act. However, if that detail were amended to something more... realistic, then I'd continue to support the idea.

I mean, I just re-read the issue, and took a long hard look at the last couple of pages. There is the school bus, a schoolyard full of elementary-aged kids at play, and there is a guy who can explode and "Fish Girl" totally oblivious to the kids, daring Nitro to explode so she can hit him harder.

I have two elementary school children. She couldn't have fallen back, let him think he was getting away, and then nailed him at a better time and place? She couldn't at least have grabbed him and gone soaring high into the sky with him.. making an attempt to place those children out of harms way? If she had been properly trained and prepared, she would have and all of those children wouldn't be dead. And all of their living friends and relatives wouldn't be crushed with anguish.

But hey, she saved us from the bad guys, eh?

[DelBubs]

By the same token does it not set a bad precedent once you allow one group to put on mask and mete out justice according to their own will and whim? Do you not open the door for anyone to do that?

And really, how do you know who is under the mask at any given time?
What stopping Erbert the Pervert from puttign on a Spidey costume and luring young children away? Or YOU placing your trust in someone you thought was a hero, only to find out the hard way that anyone can don a costum and put on an act?

I oppose the double standard. If THEY can regularly hide their identites, kick down doors, and smash peoples faces in for acts THEY perceive to be wrong, then so can you or me or anyone. If they can walk about casually with the destructive power of a nuke a mere whim of their will away, then whats the big deal about me owning or carrying or using an assualt rifle whenever I please or stock piling weapons ... like an Iron Man or other tech.head? That is the message THEY are sending. However, if thats the WRONG message to be sending, and it is, then the so-called heroes need to get with the same programm all of us are held to and begin sending the RIGHT message and operating on the RIGHT side .... that of the people and state/s they claim to care about and want to protect, as opposed to their own side.

And if people suck so bad. If our governements are so irremdeemably evil, then start acting like heroes ... oppose us and topple them.
If a super powered person breaks a law or commits a crime then I see no problem with his details being recorded, much like comvicted criminals have their DNA profile recorded. How would you feel however, if you were told that a record of your DNA was required, because you came from a demographic that may one day commit a crime?

It is not so much the concept of asking living weapons to register their details that I have a problem with, but the can of worms that could be opened by doing so.

How would you enforce such a thing, there would be those willing to register straight away, but what about the rest? How are you going to enforce it? What about a character who has the power to cause great damage, but has lived in anonimity, choosing to live a standard life with wife and kids etc. Why should he be made to register?

If Mr Anonimity from above chooses to register, how are law enforcement going to recognise him if he returns to anonimity. How big a step is it for him to be asked to wear some kinda of badge that depicts him as super powered? If he registers, he labels himself, by labeling himself he sets himself aside as different from the percieved norm, once a person is percieved as different, how long before he is discriminated against?

As for Heroes seeing their government as inherently wrong and trying to implement change has been explored in in the Squadron Supreme mini series and The recent Authority series, both times the idea failed. Super Heroes aware that any change cannot be implemented, but only influenced.

[Shaman Of The Whills]

By the same token does it not set a bad precedent once you allow one group to put on mask and mete out justice according to their own will and whim? Do you not open the door for anyone to do that?
I'm not sure which point this is responding to. By which same token are you talking about? And what re you suggesting would be done exactly?

And really, how do you know who is under the mask at any given time?
What stopping Erbert the Pervert from puttign on a Spidey costume and luring young children away? Or YOU placing your trust in someone you thought was a hero, only to find out the hard way that anyone can don a costum and put on an act?
How do you know that anyone is anyone? All those other forms of registration have the same problem, with all forms of fraud. And I'm not sure what relevance the pervert example has... are you saying that costumes entirely should be outlawed? Because I'm pretty sure Halloween would have a problem with that, as would most of those of us geeks who frequently attend comic shows in costumes... but I'm still not sure what that has to do with it... couldn't "Erbert the Pervert" just lure the child away anyways? I mean heck, the real Spider-Man could do just the same thing... how does registration solve that problem (or superheroes cause that problem?)? Plus, hopefully it isn't like the public gets this information anyways... just on principle they'd get tons of stalkers and murderers out to get a name for themselves, large common criminal elements like HYDRA even aside.

If THEY can regularly hide their identites, kick down doors, and smash peoples faces in for acts THEY perceive to be wrong, then so can you or me or anyone.
Uh... we are allowed to hide our identities. And we are allowed to make citizens arrests, which is the tame version of what you are saying. Do superheroes regularly kick down doors? Because I can't remember these occasions that they were doing this. And they don't just walk up to people and smash them in the face, there a re usually circumstances around that. So there pretty much isn't a double standard, barring extremist examples.

If they can walk about casually with the destructive power of a nuke a mere whim of their will away, then whats the big deal about me owning or carrying or using an assualt rifle whenever I please or stock piling weapons ...
Because they're human beings. Alternative solutions must be sought. But to regulate them as if they are the weapons themselves dehumanizes them, and leads to pointless encarcerations because there appears to be no alternatives. (Plus, we as human beings already possess the power to kill one another, even in great numbers. We have laws that make murder a crime for that reason. Once a crime has been committed, they should then be subject to that law. Innocent until proven guilty still stands, so if an individual hasn't committed a crime, why should they suddenly be subject to laws that make their living a crime?)

then the so-called heroes need to get with the same programm all of us are held to and begin sending the RIGHT message and operating on the RIGHT side .... that of the people and state/s they claim to care about and want to protect, as opposed to their own side.
And those that don't want to participate? Those that don't want to be subject to the whim of the government? What if they don't think that the 'RIGHT' message that you're claiming would be in place is in fact right? What then?

One of the big probmes I see with having a database of identities is the possibility of it falling into the wrong hands. How often have organizations like AIM, or HYDRA stolen governemt information? And look, they nearly totally destroyed SHIELD at on point! Many of those who secret thier identities are for the sake of the ones they love. If it becomes known who and where these super-powered people are, thier families are instantly at risk.
Also, who gets this information? Who regulates it? Who decides what punishments are necesarry and what the propoer means of going about prosecuting vioators should be? How far does it reach? Should this information be available to just the highest ups in government or the local police? Should it be provided to citizens' rights groups who are worried that they might have such powered individuals in their neighborhoods that might subsequently endager their lives? And if so, what is to stop this list from circulating widely on places like the net that then sets up addresses and personal information for people to kill these individuals. Heck, its happened with abortion doctors in the real world. Imagine what you'd get with the opportunity to stalk or kill a superhero.

True, but at this stage of the game do you think the premier policing organization SHIELD would not already have dossiers on just about every known hero and villain already? Storywise it makes perfect sense to me that Nick Fury would have been doing this over the years whether it was out of a sense of being prepared for any eventuality (as with the Xavier Files in the X-men) or just plain paranoia on the part of his superiors.
I absolutely agree, except for the fact that I think the registration is an attempt to force these individuals to come forward to the government and subject themselves to other forms of regulation, such as perhaps tracking or bugging, and service to the government. Just knowing who these people are and making them responsbile for their actions (which to be honest I've always assumed has been in place in the first place), makes no difference.

So, I guess if those are the terms, I must oppose the Act. However, if that detail were amended to something more... realistic, then I'd continue to support the idea.
Realistic as in optional opportunity to continue their work in service of SHIELD or realistic as in those that do qualify as of military value should be forced?

She couldn't have fallen back, let him think he was getting away, and then nailed him at a better time and place? She couldn't at least have grabbed him and gone soaring high into the sky with him.. making an attempt to place those children out of harms way? If she had been properly trained and prepared, she would have and all of those children wouldn't be dead. And all of their living friends and relatives wouldn't be crushed with anguish.
But they aren't proposing training. And accidents do happen. The girl was obviously not aware as to the power that her opponent had and didn't understand the risk. The same could happen in a real world scenario, and oftentimes civilian lives are lost despite all of the training given to them anways. Now this still isn't a support of the New Warriors.

If a super powered person breaks a law or commits a crime then I see no problem with his details being recorded, much like comvicted criminals have their DNA profile recorded. How would you feel however, if you were told that a record of your DNA was required, because you came from a demographic that may one day commit a crime?
Again, a beautiful articulation that I could never hope to match...

[Powersurge]

Well, I think that a flat out registration of all such folks would be a good place to start. From there you can begin quatifiying the phenom. in finer detail.

One of the things I've recently been thinking about from the pov of my Powersurge character is that given the choice of suffering some ambiguous label at birth, or being responsible for unwittingly killing hundreds of innocent people, what would he chose ... in hindesight? And answering for him, yes. Even as the Banner would have killed himself a long time ago if he could, Powersurge would rather have risked cradle recognition of his latent mutantcy, if in doing so the disaster he caused could have been averted.

I recall at least one mutant from the early days of X-Factor burning a city down around him because, his powers just activated one fine day and the mutant had no clue how to control them or turn them off. Thats a heavy burden to carry, I'd figure.

One thing I noticed about what Iron Man said in Illuminati was that any FLAGRANT use of powers would result in reprucussions. So, if a person had powers but could control them and didn't want anything to do with them, then there would be no reason to track them down.

I think that is as realistc from the standpoint of the bottom line ($$$$), as giving EVERY (registered) metahuman and his sidekick a job.

As for how you would enforce the law beyond that ... how to convince criminals to obey the law, well, that has always been the problem. Of course, the benefits of common law and pooled resources, have always been for the benefit of those who respect their fellow man and work with them toward their mutual weal ... not those who break the law and seek to subvert the common wealth to their own ends.

[DelBubs]

Taken from here (http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/local/scn-sa-civilwar1mar29,0,5877734.story?coll=stam-news-local-headlines)

The government then proposes superheroes register their names, alter egos and powers and agree to participate in training programs -- in effect becoming legitimate, regulated law-enforcement agents.
So register and become a super powered lackey to the whims of the government, and if Mr Anonimity from earlier doesn't want to be used as a living weapon by the government? Do they arrest him and intern him until he plays ball. Where does it actually stop?

[Transmetropolitan]

Illegal superhoics for me.

Given the SHIELD's track record is no better than most independent superheroes, I wouldn't knuckle under for them.

On the other hand, I'd be open to working with an organization that was subject to a bit more oversight...

[Powersurge]

By the same token does it not set a bad precedent once you allow one group to put on mask and mete out justice according to their own will and whim? Do you not open the door for anyone to do that?
I'm not sure which point this is responding to. By which same token are you talking about? And what re you suggesting would be done exactly?

Errrr, ummmm, well, maybe what I was responding to was in another thread. It's hard ot keep track of them all, and my response tend to be to general ideas expressed thorughout and/or as they come to mind.

Anyway, I believe the point I was responding to was something to the effect that by forcing superhumans to register you'd be opening the door for the forced registration of all sorts of minorities.

As for what I'm suggesting; I thought it was fairly clear; if one group of freebooters has the right to put on a mask and pass judgement according to their own whim, that opens the door for others to do so as well ... by their own whim and will.

I mean heck, the real Spider-Man could do just the same thing... how does registration solve that problem (or superheroes cause that problem?)?

Well, if the real Spiderman did do that, we would eventaully learn he was doing that, and when we did know he was who he was supposed to be, and he would be caught and punished. And if the real Spiderman didn't do it, we would know he didn't, becasue he could be accounted for, and then we could work on apprehending the REAL criminal. Hows that for a start?

The real Spiderman could be furnished with some sort of identifiaction. You say it is a waste of time due to forgery? So, though I think we've covered this ground before, are you also suggesting we do away with all forms of identification because it might be a forgery?

Uh... we are allowed to hide our identities. And we are allowed to make citizens arrests, which is the tame version of what you are saying. Do superheroes regularly kick down doors? Because I can't remember these occasions that they were doing this. And they don't just walk up to people and smash them in the face, there a re usually circumstances around that.

Once again, you say that from the unique perspective of an omniscient god who can see into the very thoughts of the heroes in question, and know every detail of every situation they are involved in from start to finish. For all intenets and purposes, they don a mask, kick in doo ... errr, scratch that, they knock down buildings, and beat people up based upon their own will and whim.

As for not having to reveal our identites; just try getting into any position of societal trust ... hell just try getting a job at a convenience store without revealing your identity.

As for the "outlawing costumes" comment; gimme a break.

And those that don't want to participate?

Better make sure they keep their heads down, their noses clean, and don't presume an unwarrented air of authority.

Those that don't want to be subject to the whim of the government?

I would rather be at the whim of a government that me and mine essentially support, and which supports us in turn in various ways, than at the whim of a bunch of super-powered cry babies who have enough power to destroy entire cities and yet whine incessantly about how oppressed THEY are and how tyranical WE are.




Realistic as in optional opportunity to continue their work in service of SHIELD or realistic as in those that do qualify as of military value should be forced?

Realistic as in not imagining that every superhuman has either the powers of the psychological inclination to be a good combatant. And realistic as in not imagiing that they have the resources to provide every metahuman in the States (let alone the world) with training, a salary and benefits.

But they aren't proposing training.

One would imagine that an organization that is going to take on people to act as its agents are also going to ensure that those agents are properly trained ... or it will be that organizations arse on the line.

And accidents do happen.

THat wasn't a accident. That was sure ignorance and bravado. Granted Fish Girl ain't evil, but as far as "accidents" go, she comes about as close as you can get.

The girl was obviously not aware as to the power that her opponent had and didn't understand the risk.

Bull. She dared him to explode prior to the fact. Another of them called Nitro "that old Captain Marvel enemy". They knew. And if they didn't, they should've. Just like they should've known that they were smack dab in the middle of a residential neighbourhood. Just like they should've known there was an elementary school right across or just up the freakin street. And that schol was in session. It's supposed to be their JOB to know. Because their job is supposed to be protecting people, not performing for a camera.

They boched it, BIG time. And their mistake ISN'T excuseable, becasue it was so obvious and galring so as to have been entirely avoidable. To excuse them for missing the obvioius, is like excusing the first year med. student for losing a patient in surgery. The student has NO PLACE performig surgery. Nor does a superhero have any place attacking a guy who can explode out front of a stocked schoolyard. It's idiotic beyonds belief. :shock:

[Transmetropolitan]

The real Spiderman could be furnished with some sort of identifiaction. You say it is a waste of time due to forgery?

The Avengers had little picture ID cards, back in the day... Spidey had one, as I recall.

[Shaman Of The Whills]

On the other hand, I'd be open to working with an organization that was subject to a bit more oversight...
I'd be very willing to sign up under an independent organization that wasn't SHIELD, and actually I do agree with the general idea that Iron Man proposed 'back in the day' during the Illuminati special. Oddly enough, over that long period of time, it seems like the group flip-flopped on my like scale... if Iron Man and company had managed to create such an independent institution that would be in the hands of the superheroes themselves, I'd be totally down for that, and were I among them I'd sign up. Heck, I'd sign up even if I didn't have superpowers, just in case they wanted a no-power piece of cannon fodder. I'm certain that most everybody would be up for that too, because they have been in the past, thinking back to all the other major events... these guys have come together time and time again in these major crisis events... its kinda sad (and to me a bit unbelievable) that something so petty as this could drive such a wedge among the superhero community that will result in hero murdering hero. Depending on who does what, there should be no coming back from that. Given the situation as it has been proposed, I'm thinking that this almost ensures defeat for the opposition to the act, because as it stands it seems there is really no way for the opposing side to be victorious at the end of the day. They can only admit defeat to the bill, either fleeing the country, succumbing to its demands and becoming tools of the establishment, becoming prisoners, living on the run or dying. I don't see them managing to actually change the establishment itself. I mean really, how would that happen? Any theories? I'm trying to get some hope for my kids here...

[Transmetropolitan]

I don't see them managing to actually change the establishment itself. I mean really, how would that happen? Any theories? I'm trying to get some hope for my kids here...

I dunno.

If Captain America, one of, if not the most popular heroes among the mainstream populace of the MU U.S. comes out in direct opposition, he could sway popular opinion.

Additionally, if the government heroes end up screwing up and dishing out some collateral damage of their own, it could damage the basic premise of the act, at least in the eyes of the voting public.

Then there's the old-school Avengers solution: Self-regulate. Remember Warbird's "trial"? Yeah, it was coming apart by the end, but the public at large was just as ignorant of that as they are of the other sticky details.

Edit Whoo-hoo! Gamma Flight!

[DelBubs]

And those that don't want to participate?

Better make sure they keep their heads down, their noses clean, and don't presume an unwarrented air of authority.

Those that don't want to be subject to the whim of the government?

I would rather be at the whim of a government that me and mine essentially support, and which supports us in turn in various ways, than at the whim of a bunch of super-powered cry babies who have enough power to destroy entire cities and yet whine incessantly about how oppressed THEY are and how tyranical WE are.
Your not being asked to be at the whim of a government, those super powered cry babies are. By what right can the government make them register and train as some kinda law enforcenment agent. Would Clint Barton be required to register, he has no powers, just highly trained. If he is required to register, why not an Olympic level gymnast or weight lifter? Anyone is capable of donning the Iron Man Armour, so anyone with that potential is gonna be required to register. If it's confined to people with powers actually within their own bodies, does that make it any better? Not in my opinion, just defines those that are different a little more. I can't see how just because anyone is different they can't be afforded the same rights as someone considered normal?

[Ben]

The real Spiderman could be furnished with some sort of identifiaction. You say it is a waste of time due to forgery?

The Avengers had little picture ID cards, back in the day... Spidey had one, as I recall.

There's also this

http://www.alphaflight.net/storage/spidey_scan.jpg

Ben

[Shaman Of The Whills]

Well, if the real Spiderman did do that, we would eventaully learn he was doing that, and when we did know he was who he was supposed to be, and he would be caught and punished.
Exactly. If a criminal is committing a crime, they would eventually be caught and punished. So how does registering that individual suddenly make that crime not likely to happen? How does registration even begin to solve that problem?

And if the real Spiderman didn't do it, we would know he didn't, becasue he could be accounted for, and then we could work on apprehending the REAL criminal. Hows that for a start?
How would we know the real Spider-Man didn't do it? Are they under constant surveillance? Are they subject to Brother Eye? Even in the real world people can't be put under such constant surveillance even in extreme circumstances...

The real Spiderman could be furnished with some sort of identifiaction. You say it is a waste of time due to forgery? So, though I think we've covered this ground before, are you also suggesting we do away with all forms of identification because it might be a forgery?
I'm not saying we should throw away all forms of ID, but just pointing out the fact that there are constant cases of fraud. They can't always be depended upon, especially when you're labeling circumstances of National Security and they're entirely dependant on just an ID system. I'm also not sure how that would work... how does that have any relevance to a criminal who is committing a crime in a Spider-Man suit (especially noting that we haven't really seen all that many such examples of Spider-men dressing up to molest children in the MU)? How does having the ID make anything better? I'm just not understanding the purpose of this ID.

Once again, you say that from the unique perspective of an omniscient god who can see into the very thoughts of the heroes in question, and know every detail of every situation they are involved in from start to finish. For all intenets and purposes, they don a mask, kick in doo ... errr, scratch that, they knock down buildings, and beat people up based upon their own will and whim.
Much of the evidence supports my case, also known as the people cheering as the Avengers step out to greet the crowd, looking up cheerfully as the FFJet flies over or Superman passes by, the countless individuals that have been saved from criminals, and those that watched in horror as foreign craft came over to destroy them only to be stopped by those heroes... I think that people are a bit better educated to understand the superheroes... look at the outrage people express in the MU every single time Jameson tries to diss Spidey again! Look at the reporters like Sally Floyd that have come to understand the intimate lives of these people and sharing it with the rest of the world. People aren't completely ignorant to the fact. And the occasions in which they knock down buildings is rare, and usually then the people wouldn't just go "Oh those superheroes are at it", they've questioned it without a doubt, and seeing as its taken this long for them to even question this (and I still question the motives of the act), people understand. After all, they know the alternative is worse, as we've also seen many times.

As for not having to reveal our identites; just try getting into any position of societal trust ... hell just try getting a job at a convenience store without revealing your identity.
Yeah, and they have jobs too. They reveal their identites at those times. But they don't have to reveal their identities while they're being superheroes. Its not like "Hey everyone, my name is Peter Parker because this is important for you to know!" I mean, what reason does the public need for their identities? And people are allowed to wear masks in certain activities in modern society that aren't just for parties and holidays.

As for the "outlawing costumes" comment; gimme a break.
Do you have an alternative?

Better make sure they keep their heads down, their noses clean, and don't presume an unwarrented air of authority.
Except for that isn't the case. Those that wouldn't participate would be committing a federal crime. A federal crime isn't a thing that most people want pinned on them. Not to mention the fact that you've already noted how very hard it is to get a job without using an ID, and when that red flag is stuck on their record, lets just say that they have absolutely no chance in hell.

I would rather be at the whim of a government that me and mine essentially support, and which supports us in turn in various ways, than at the whim of a bunch of super-powered cry babies who have enough power to destroy entire cities and yet whine incessantly about how oppressed THEY are and how tyranical WE are.
You would rather be at the whim of government that you support. That is almost always a given! I'm questioning what you would do at the whim of a government that you don't support, who doesn't support you and that seeks to capitalize upon your life, with no regards for your natural rights.

Realistic as in not imagining that every superhuman has either the powers of the psychological inclination to be a good combatant. And realistic as in not imagiing that they have the resources to provide every metahuman in the States (let alone the world) with training, a salary and benefits.
Yes, but that would still mean you would demand those with the most power to serve, without a choice.

One would imagine that an organization that is going to take on people to act as its agents are also going to ensure that those agents are properly trained ... or it will be that organizations arse on the line.
One would imagine. But given the fact that this act goes into effect and the war begins immediately, they're going to be sending out their superpowered acquisitions to deal with the rest of them (hence the war between heroes) meaning that they won't have had the training. And the organization won't be blamed, thats part of the purpose of the act. The organization won't be blamed, the superhero will. Becuase how dare they be reckless and not responsibly handle the assignments we give them.

THat wasn't a accident. That was sure ignorance and bravado. Granted Fish Girl ain't evil, but as far as "accidents" go, she comes about as close as you can get.
Geez, once again, for the 14th time, I'm not supporting the New Warriors, I'm saying that accidents do happen! People die in the hospital every day even due to slight misteps of doctors, but that doesn't mean that doctors are severy punished for each and every death that occurs within their realm.

Bull. She dared him to explode prior to the fact. Another of them called Nitro "that old Captain Marvel enemy". They knew. And if they didn't, they should've. Just like they should've known that they were smack dab in the middle of a residential neighbourhood. Just like they should've known there was an elementary school right across or just up the freakin street. And that schol was in session. It's supposed to be their JOB to know. Because their job is supposed to be protecting people, not performing for a camera.
Yes, they were reckless. Can we get off New Warriors? I'm not supporting them. And she didn't know the power of her enemy, because she underestimated him. Hence her bravado. How can one be overconfident and not underestimating?

To excuse them for missing the obvioius, is like excusing the first year med. student for losing a patient in surgery. The student has NO PLACE performig surgery.
And what about the intern whose been let in on the operation? What about the head surgeon of the hospital? There are risks in all of these situations as well. And just to be clear, I'm not excusing them... I'm excusing the inevitiability of even the best of the others slipping up.

[Le Messor]

NB: from another thread, having re-read the Illuminati issue, Iron Man mentions that SHIELD is a World organisation (as opposed to merely US).


As for the "outlawing costumes" comment; gimme a break.

But that was in the text. "People in costumes" were on the list Tony read out.


Bull. She dared him to explode prior to the fact. Another of them called Nitro "that old Captain Marvel enemy".

People keep mentioning that she can fly, could've taken him up, away from the endangered crowds.

I just thought I'd add to that: As she has in the past!

Police going undercover don't announce 'I'm an undercover policeman'.

OTOH, the point of the act is to control people who act as, as the MU defines them, 'Costumed Vigilantes'. However, and I think this is where the law falls apart, and what causes a lot of the arguments, it requires the registration of everyone with powers. That's what changes it into a civil rights issue.

Whenever I work with kids, I have to have a full background check, including my Police Record. (Their greatest hits, including Roxeanne and Walking on the Moon. Tho' I also like the Ghost in the Machine cover, with its Predator numbers.)

I actually haven't decided on a side yet, but I think it should be noted: this series, without even being out yet, has generated a lot of debate and argument. So, it's suddenly very realistic to me that the issue could start a Civil War.

Belay that: I've got a side. I'd support a law that says, basically, "If you want to act as a superhero, you have to work for superhero department / organisation." (for any given value of superhero department / organisation) and doesn't affect those who choose not to be superheroic.
But the law on the table does the opposite. It affects everyone with powers, and is therefore discriminatory. Some gain powers by accident, some are born with them. They're not all Iron Man.

Also, you can't look at it without context. This law will be a beginning, not an end. Where is the end? Other minorities? I doubt this will affect them directly. But for heroes? Days of Future Past, anyone?

- Le Messor
"What's so civil about war anyway?"
- Guns 'n' Roses

[Powersurge]

Exactly. If a criminal is committing a crime, they would eventually be caught and punished. So how does registering that individual suddenly make that crime not likely to happen? How does registration even begin to solve that problem?

Registering helps us know who's who, and whos not, as well as who knows how to play in the sand box, and who does not.

As for registration and crime reduction; if I buy a gun, I register it. Not becasue I want to reduce gun crime, but becasue it is my responsibility to as an adult, and my obligation to my neighbour... who might not even want guns to exist himself.

How would we know the real Spider-Man didn't do it?

Well, the first step would be establishing who the real Spiderman is. If we don't have that then its anyone's best guess. Maybe Peter Parker was testifying in court at the time of the incident. Unfortunately, no one knows that Peter Parker is Spiderman, most of all the courts, so it sucks to be Parker and rocks to be a criminal in a Spidey costume.

How does having the ID make anything better? I'm just not understanding the purpose of this ID.

I don't know; how does having ID make things any better in terms of, ohh, I dunno, law enforcement? Or military personel? Don't you think it is a good idea that these people have ID's to prove who they are and what they claim to be, and which place them within a loop of accountability if something goes awry ... despite the chance of forgery? Or would you prefer an anonymous "police force", with no ID, no training, that couldn't be held accountable, and that wore a mask, and targetted "criminals" on their own whim?

Much of the evidence supports my case.

As presented, the story states otherwise. The story states that any atmosphere of fear and mistrust has been created. The honeymoons over, the Norns have arrived from out of Jotunheim, call it what you will, the Golden Age has passed and its time to grow up.

But they don't have to reveal their identities while they're being superheroes. Its not like "Hey everyone, my name is Peter Parker because this is important for you to know!" I mean, what reason does the public need for their identities?

Yes, they do have to reveal their identities and precisely when they are assuming a heightened degree of societal responsibility and authority. Especially then.

Do you have an alternative?

Yeah, registration. And then proper documentation for those at large in the public eye.

Except for that isn't the case. Those that wouldn't participate would be committing a federal crime. A federal crime isn't a thing that most people want pinned on them.

Well, Iron Man stated that anyone acting in FLAGRANT disregard for the act would be hunted down, so it would appear to be the case. So, yeah, even here in BC it might not be a good idea to walk up to the local narcotics officer, sparking up dubbies, and showing off all your small quantity stash. Might be a bad idea. They might deport you to the States or something. But unless you're doing that, or destroying houses and driving down property value with grow-ops, you're probably pretty safe engaging in recreational use.

And hey, I WANT the partially invulenrable guy that can shoot lasers from his eyes working the graveyard shift in my terd-hole location 7/11. If the people at Mac's don't, ??????

You would rather be at the whim of government that you support.

No, I would rather be at the whim of a government that I more-or-less
support. I don't have to agree with every particular to still support my country. And some of the things that I disagree with might be dozey's, and I accept that as the price of doing business and making this way of life work.

Yes, but that would still mean you would demand those with the most power to serve, without a choice.

No, it would mean what I wrote... that there are more than enough willing combatants that no one has to be forced into service.

The organization won't be blamed, the superhero will. Becuase how dare they be reckless and not responsibly handle the assignments we give them.

Of course, the worst case has to be the only way it could possibly go. I however beg to differ. I won't go that way. As a matter of quick response the orgnaization will chose those best trained and experienced, and they will bare the brunt of the consequences for any hastily made decisions ... as an inevitable fact of registration.

As for excusing the inevitabilty of mistakes, fine. But once again, this wasn't even a rookie mistake. It was clearly the result of someone who hadn't a clue. And not having a clue is unacceptable and entirely avoidable. A bit of shared knoweldge, coordination of info between heroes, the simple genius to be aware of one's surroundings for crying out loud!! What kind of an idiot would even start throwing regular Joe punches in a elementary schoolyard?!

It's just outrageous. But once again, an error that could easily have been avoided[/b]

[Powersurge]

Exactly. If a criminal is committing a crime, they would eventually be caught and punished. So how does registering that individual suddenly make that crime not likely to happen? How does registration even begin to solve that problem?

Registering helps us know who's who, and whos not, as well as who knows how to play in the sand box, and who does not.

As for registration and crime reduction; if I buy a gun, I register it. Not becasue I want to reduce gun crime, but becasue it is my responsibility to as an adult, and my obligation to my neighbour... who might not even want guns to exist himself.

How would we know the real Spider-Man didn't do it?

Well, the first step would be establishing who the real Spiderman is. If we don't have that then its anyone's best guess. Maybe Peter Parker was testifying in court at the time of the incident. Unfortunately, no one knows that Peter Parker is Spiderman, most of all the courts, so it sucks to be Parker and rocks to be a criminal in a Spidey costume.

How does having the ID make anything better? I'm just not understanding the purpose of this ID.

I don't know; how does having ID make things any better in terms of, ohh, I dunno, law enforcement? Or military personel? Don't you think it is a good idea that these people have ID's to prove who they are and what they claim to be, and which place them within a loop of accountability if something goes awry ... despite the chance of forgery? Or would you prefer an anonymous "police force", with no ID, no training, that couldn't be held accountable, and that wore a mask, and targetted "criminals" on their own whim?

Much of the evidence supports my case.

As presented, the story states otherwise. The story states that any atmosphere of fear and mistrust has been created. The honeymoons over, the Norns have arrived from out of Jotunheim, call it what you will, the Golden Age has passed and its time to grow up.

But they don't have to reveal their identities while they're being superheroes. Its not like "Hey everyone, my name is Peter Parker because this is important for you to know!" I mean, what reason does the public need for their identities?

Yes, they do have to reveal their identities and precisely when they are assuming a heightened degree of societal responsibility and authority. Especially then.

Do you have an alternative?

Yeah, registration. And then proper documentation for those at large in the public eye.

Except for that isn't the case. Those that wouldn't participate would be committing a federal crime. A federal crime isn't a thing that most people want pinned on them.

Well, Iron Man stated that anyone acting in FLAGRANT disregard for the act would be hunted down, so it would appear to be the case. So, yeah, even here in BC it might not be a good idea to walk up to the local narcotics officer, sparking up dubbies, and showing off all your small quantity stash. Might be a bad idea. They might deport you to the States or something. But unless you're doing that, or destroying houses and driving down property value with grow-ops, you're probably pretty safe engaging in recreational use.

And hey, I WANT the partially invulenrable guy that can shoot lasers from his eyes working the graveyard shift in my terd-hole location 7/11. If the people at Mac's don't, ??????

You would rather be at the whim of government that you support.

No, I would rather be at the whim of a government that I more-or-less
support. I don't have to agree with every particular to still support my country. And some of the things that I disagree with might be dozey's, and I accept that as the price of doing business and making this way of life work.

Yes, but that would still mean you would demand those with the most power to serve, without a choice.

No, it would mean what I wrote... that there are more than enough willing combatants that no one has to be forced into service.

The organization won't be blamed, the superhero will. Becuase how dare they be reckless and not responsibly handle the assignments we give them.

Of course, the worst case has to be the only way it could possibly go. I however beg to differ. I won't go that way. As a matter of quick response the orgnaization will chose those best trained and experienced, and they will bare the brunt of the consequences for any hastily made decisions ... as an inevitable fact of registration.

As for excusing the inevitabilty of mistakes, fine. But once again, this wasn't even a rookie mistake. It was clearly the result of someone who hadn't a clue. And not having a clue is unacceptable and entirely avoidable. A bit of shared knoweldge, coordination of info between heroes, the simple genius to be aware of one's surroundings for crying out loud!! What kind of an idiot would even start throwing regular Joe punches in a elementary schoolyard?!

It's just outrageous. But once again, an error that could easily have been avoided[/b]

[Powersurge]

Oh, I just wanted to thank SOTW for todays debate. I've been trolling for this kind of thing for a couple of weeks now on various lists, and you've satiated my hunger.

Please don't take anything I've said too personally, my blood was beginning to rise at a couple of points, but for me this is all hypothetical comicbook fun.

Cheers mate! And thanks!

[Shaman Of The Whills]

As for registration and crime reduction; if I buy a gun, I register it. Not becasue I want to reduce gun crime, but becasue it is my responsibility to as an adult, and my obligation to my neighbour... who might not even want guns to exist himself.
So Spider-Man choosing to register would stop Erbert the pervert from molesting children? Furthermore, has the registration of guns stopped the usage of guns in criminal activity? Are they not still used for murder and other criminal activities? Lets also say that a superhero registers, out of respect for those neighbors who don't want superheroes to exist. They'll still be doing the exact same activities they were doing before. How does that change anything? Actually, the registration simply makes authorized vigilanteism legal, does it not?

Well, the first step would be establishing who the real Spiderman is. If we don't have that then its anyone's best guess. Maybe Peter Parker was testifying in court at the time of the incident. Unfortunately, no one knows that Peter Parker is Spiderman, most of all the courts, so it sucks to be Parker and rocks to be a criminal in a Spidey costume.
So, the government is able to recognize Parker as a result of a complex identification process. This stops the molestor or criminal from wearing the Spidey costume how? If a criminal is caught perpetrating a crime, it doesn't really matter whether or not he is the real Spider-Man is in the first place.

I don't know; how does having ID make things any better in terms of, ohh, I dunno, law enforcement? Or military personel? Don't you think it is a good idea that these people have ID's to prove who they are and what they claim to be, and which place them within a loop of accountability if something goes awry ... despite the chance of forgery? Or would you prefer an anonymous "police force", with no ID, no training, that couldn't be held accountable, and that wore a mask, and targetted "criminals" on their own whim?
I'm talking about practical application. What purpose does the ID actually serve? When are you going to use this ID to prove that you are an authorized vigilante? Pop out the card in the middle of a fight with Dr. Doom, "Don't worry citizens, I'm authorized to do this." I'm pretty sure that at that point the cits don't care too much. Military personel also have IDs for specific purposes, namely access to bases and those resources restricted from normal commoners. Therefore that ID serves a purpose. Having an ID serves no clear purpose to me, for the superheroes, other than for providing a false sense of security.

the Golden Age has passed and its time to grow up.

Yes, they do have to reveal their identities and precisely when they are assuming a heightened degree of societal responsibility and authority. Especially then.
Why? What practical difference does it make? The people don't care the names of the individuals protecting them. I don't know the name of the policemen that serve me. Why does a name, an identity, matter to the casual observer?

Well, Iron Man stated that anyone acting in FLAGRANT disregard for the act would be hunted down, so it would appear to be the case. So, yeah, even here in BC it might not be a good idea to walk up to the local narcotics officer, sparking up dubbies, and showing off all your small quantity stash. Might be a bad idea. They might deport you to the States or something. But unless you're doing that, or destroying houses and driving down property value with grow-ops, you're probably pretty safe engaging in recreational use.
Whether or not they are flagarantly disregarding the act or not doesn't change the fact that they would still be guilty of a crime. Those who commit crimes within the public eye are no guiltier than those who do it in the safe comfort of a back alley or their homes. So the Act is still slamming down a damning sentence upon innocents based on circumstances which they can't deny.

No, I would rather be at the whim of a government that I more-or-less
support. I don't have to agree with every particular to still support my country. And some of the things that I disagree with might be dozey's, and I accept that as the price of doing business and making this way of life work.
You're still working under the pretense that the majority of the policies that are in effect are still to your general benefit, hence the purpose of the social contract in its purest form. However, for these individuals, society has now deprived them of their most basic human rights, and they no longer feel that the government is at all supportable. If a government that you supported decided that a minority was a threat and thus encarcerated them, would you continue to support them? What if you were a member of that minority? The laws of the country you've supported have turned on you and have threatened your life and liberty, are you still supporting them then?

that there are more than enough willing combatants that no one has to be forced into service.
And if there are none? Also, that still doesn't solve your problem of walking nuclear bombs and what they're doing.

Of course, the worst case has to be the only way it could possibly go. I however beg to differ. I won't go that way. As a matter of quick response the orgnaization will chose those best trained and experienced, and they will bare the brunt of the consequences for any hastily made decisions ... as an inevitable fact of registration.
But that would be denying the very nature of the act. The act was created in order to make these heroes responsible for their actions. To blame them for errors. That is the very purpose of all of this. SHIELD itself will not take the blame, the same as it is in the real world. When a cop screws up, no one begins to question the validity of the police force, and whether or not the police department itself should be held responsible. When there is an error by a soldier in battle, that soldier is held accountable, not the miltary itself, as is policy pretty much throughout the world. You don't often indicte organizations, particularly those that you are dependant upon to serve and protect you. Also, with the debated international status of the organization, who has the authority to charge SHIELD with anything?

And hey, I WANT the partially invulenrable guy that can shoot lasers from his eyes working the graveyard shift in my terd-hole location 7/11. If the people at Mac's don't, ??????
What?

In the end I suppose that this whole discussion is entirely pointless, as I'm quite resolute in my stance, and you're obviously quite firm in yours, but I would like to say that I appreciate the fact that you're willing to continue this discussion despite the fact that we're not going to come to an actual agreement or even resolution. I've certainly come to a better understanding of my actual stance and the reasons behind my opinions, much better than I had when we began. Thanks.

I suppose that also the limited ability of the medium to give us all of the necesarry information will also continue to hinder us, as even with as much detail as they can give us, it'll never be quite as full as the real thing. Still, is anyone else frustrated by the fact that we still don't have enough information to really go on?

Edit: Haha! Great to hear that you appreciate the discussion as well. Missed your post before I posted. It really is great to have such a dedicated discussion... on other boards *cough*theforce.net*cough* most of the times when we get into really good deep developed discussions, one side just cops out and decides that by not talking about it they are taking the higher ground. I'm glad we don't have that same attitude here.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Peel my costume from my cold, dead body...they'd probably love to do that...or...Forget it!...
Gotta go with being an "illegal" hero. The fascist jerks...er, I mean the status quo...aren't right.

[Powersurge]

Yeah, I think that Garry the Al-Fan's post summed up the extent of the arguement I got on other lists. Name calling, alarmist associations, and not alot else. Notthat I didn't get that here too. You'd figure that the righteous side would be able to muster a better arguement than "Nazi" or whatever. Kinda solidifies that side I'm on, knowig what comprises the majority of the opposition... alarmists and name callers.

Anyway, thanks again ShamanOTW.

[DelBubs]

Edit: Haha! Great to hear that you appreciate the discussion as well. Missed your post before I posted. It really is great to have such a dedicated discussion... on other boards *cough*theforce.net*cough* most of the times when we get into really good deep developed discussions, one side just cops out and decides that by not talking about it they are taking the higher ground. I'm glad we don't have that same attitude here.

Oh so am I.


Yeah, I think that Garry the Al-Fan's post summed up the extent of the arguement I got on other lists. Name calling, alarmist associations, and not alot else. Notthat I didn't get that here too. You'd figure that the righteous side would be able to muster a better arguement than "Nazi" or whatever. Kinda solidifies that side I'm on, knowig what comprises the majority of the opposition... alarmists and name callers.

Anyway, thanks again ShamanOTW.

:?

[kozzi24]

I'd give up being the hero--"flagrant use" for the protection of my family. In this information age, no data would ever be safe.


More comparable is police and medical liscenscing, in which an individual has chosen to go through significant training and has earned the liscence, thus making them accountable for their actions. However, the superhero registration act is for no such purpose. It does not posit that they should be given any such training but rather just that they should be monitored and controlled.

The lisence indicates you have been trained. And without the lisence, it is illegal to practice medicine, for the protection of the public.

Maybe "kicking doors in" was an extreme example. But how many skylights have Daredevil and Spider-Man used for illegal entry to a potential crime scene. Police need a warrant, vigilantes do not. If Doc Ock is arrested after a fight with Spider-Man after Spider-Man illegally entered Ock's rented warehouse space, the case would be dismissed. Registration should make the heroes accountable to those laws.

An end result of the registration should be that metahuman crime rates RISE and super-defendants get charges dismissed more often.

[darc_light]

I've never forgiven Captain America for arresting mutants who refused to sign the old registration act...
See
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/quillresist.htm

They're was an old issue of What If? #30 (The second story in the issue) where Reed and Sue Richards daughter lived. She was organizing rallies for various causes, which upset the status quo. The govt. ordered the Avengers not to take part in the rallies or they would lose membership and face criminal charges. Every Avenger but Captain America quit on the spot.... Blind patriotism is a very dangerous thing...

If there's one ideology I hate, it's "My country right or wrong." I'm sure the Nazis told themselves the same thing...

I'm just criticising "Cap" here, as for the idea of registration, I'm sure there are good arguments for and against the idea...I wouldn't want to be singled out for profiling, but I can understand being afraid of dangerous mutants. The whole idea is useless anyways, what super-villian is going to go register himself (Or herself)? All you'll get are the good, decent, law-abiding folks, not the threats.

[darc_light]

P.S. I would probably sign it, because I had to so as not to break the law...What other people do is their own choice, and none of my business.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I've never forgiven Captain America for arresting mutants who refused to sign the old registration act...
See
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/quillresist.htm

That wasn't the original Steve Rogers/Captain America(and current Cap)....that was his temporary government replacement, John Walker.


They're was an old issue of What If? #30 (The second story in the issue) where Reed and Sue Richards daughter lived. She was organizing rallies for various causes, which upset the status quo. The govt. ordered the Avengers not to take part in the rallies or they would lose membership and face criminal charges. Every Avenger but Captain America quit on the spot.... Blind patriotism is a very dangerous thing...

If there's one ideology I hate, it's "My country right or wrong." I'm sure the Nazis told themselves the same thing...

I'm just criticising "Cap" here, as for the idea of registration, I'm sure there are good arguments for and against the idea...I wouldn't want to be singled out for profiling, but I can understand being afraid of dangerous mutants. The whole idea is useless anyways, what super-villian is going to go register himself (Or herself)? All you'll get are the good, decent, law-abiding folks, not the threats.

I agree about the blind patriotism being dangerous (and it's kind of stupid too). This time, Cap is on the right side, though...so props to him.

Cap should never be portrayed as a slave to what the government wants...he should always stand for freedom and the protection of the people of America.

Dana

[darc_light]

Thanks for the correction about John Walker.

Were you refering to him being in the right about Quill or the Richards' daughter? Her name was Mary, by the way. Me and my rotten memory.

I disagree, of course. I mean you're right, legally he was doing his job, but morally I don't see chasing down and arresting a scared kid for being an unregistered mutant as very heroic or standing up for anyone's freedom. Of course, when he (Quill) joined the Resistants, he WAS a criminal, so that changed...No offence, I just have a differant opinion of the situation.

And thanks for not tearing into me like some people might have. It's good to be able to discuss things you disagree on without a screaming match. 8)

I assume the Super Powers Registration Act applies to non-mutants as well, if Spider-Man is included. So that means sorcerors and magicians 8-[ (like Dr. Strange), Aliens (Like Adam X/X-Treme), mutates (like Armadillo, who is already well known to authorities), or Cyborgs, like...Gee, most are already well known to authorities, Donald Pierce and the Reavers, Lady Deathstrike...

Anyway, it must cover a lot of ground.

[cmdrkoenig67]

No...I meant he's on the right side now(with the new superpowers registration/Civil War thing) IMO(and Kozzi has an incredibly good point about the law hindering the work of a registered super hero)It's the side I'd choose.

Dana

[darc_light]

I understand now. I often wondered how that kind of thing would stand up in court... 8)
Thanks for clearing that up.

[rplass]

darc_light Posted:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They're was an old issue of What If? #30 (The second story in the issue) where Reed and Sue Richards daughter lived.


If you look carefully, you can see Walter Langkowski in that issue, as it mirrors the events of FF# 266-268, where he showed up as a radiation expert called in by Reed Richards to help Sue.

Love,
rplass

[Barnacle13]

There's also a little clause in the Declaration of Independence that states if a government is unjust the people have the right to rise up and overthrow that government and "all men are created equal". So given that I think either side could argue they're on the right side of the law. The Declaration of Indepenence is a hard document for an American to argue with. It's what we've based our existence on. So if a group feels the law is unjust then they should stand up and voice their opinion. If the government then rises up to squash them, then they have the right to bear arms in the defense of their homes as well as what they may consider a patriotic duty to overthrow the unjust government. Why should someone who is in the eyes of the government an equal be forced to register for being different? Sorry, but I gotta side with the non-registered heroes. What comes next making homosexuals register because they are "different and dangerous"? It's ludicrous! Now Northstar is double registered! And how can that be fair?

[darc_light]

Yes, that was the first story, where the Richard's daughter Suzie turns out to be a murderous psychic vampire/monster....


Doctors Banner, Octavius and Morbius were also there. As far as I know, only Michael Morbius is an actual medical doctor. They never specified if he (Morbius) was a vampire or not, but he still had that bat-like face... :-k
There was also a doctor named Kite, but I don't recognize the name.

[Le Messor]

darc_light Posted: They're was an old issue of What If? #30 (The second story in the issue) where Reed and Sue Richards daughter lived.
If you look carefully, you can see Walter Langkowski in that issue.

I know that's why I have the issue.
I think Morbius was vamped at the time, if he had the bat-face. They never specified they were after medical doctors; most of the people they wanted were radiation experts.

It makes you think, if the constitution lets you take arms against governments of trouble, and by opposing end them, consider how that applies to our superheroes... :shock:

I wonder if there is a right side to the Civil War debate. The registration isn't about mutants; it's about people who want to do superheroics. It's not about what they are, it's about what they do. There's a huge distinction.

Dr Strange is one of the few supers who doesn't have to register. (I don't know why; that's close to word for word what Stark, or somebody, told him.)

- Le Messor
"A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila."
- Mitch Ratliffe

[darc_light]

But wouldn't they need medical doctors as well as radiation experts? Dr. Morbius is an expert on blood, I have no idea what that field is called, Haemology?

Considering the "Timeline" as I remember it, then Morbius would have been a vampire by the time of Sue's second pregnancy, right? Morbius first appeared in 1971 (Amazing Spider-Man #101) Was that before or after the pregnancy? Of course, being an AU, it may just be that his blood disease disfigured him....

I just don't know...

[Northstars Love]

There's no way I'd sign!

And it seems some of the X-Men will be at odds with each other as well in Civil War X-Men. Some will be for it while others will not. I would think the X-Men would remember the Mutant Registration Act not so long ago. That was wrong and so is this!

After I'm with the Cap! No registration!

[Le Messor]

I wonder, though, why those who did sign are so quick to turn on their compatriots?

- LM
"A good listener is not only popular everywhere but after a while he knows something."

[Legerd]

I wonder, though, why those who did sign are so quick to turn on their compatriots?

- LM
"A good listener is not only popular everywhere but after a while he knows something."

I would think because it's now the law and they are the ones who have to enforce it.

[Powersurge]

Hundreds of people, mostly children, were murdered as a result of a bunch of amateur vigilantes making an amateur mistake....and all for the sake of increasing the ratings of their crappy reality tv show.

With just a bit of proper schooling, they would have known that, where Nitro was concerned, it would have been safer to let him think he was escaping, all the while following him, and then take him out at a more oppurtune time and place.

As it was Namorita slammed him into a school bus, in front of a elementary school that was in session, in the middle of a residential neighbourhood. And then went on to dare him to explode.

I'm not sure if I agree with all of the particular's of the bill, but I do agree with it's spirit. And I believe in leading by example, and an equal application of the law. If you want to fight crime, you have to be trained and in a position where you can be held accountable. By refusing and defying that, you are opening the door to every amateur to throw caution to the wind and show boat....at the expense of the very people you claim to be trying to protect.

As for the "Whose side am I on" logos. I'm on the side of the people. Not Cap's. Not Iron Man's. Not the governments. The side of your average Joe, and the little kids who deserve a chance to feel secure and grow up, and not be incinerated because some brat didn't have the common sense to know how to handle the situation he/she was in.

Nuff said.

[Transmetropolitan]

As touching the rationale behind Civil War...

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75978

Enjoy. :lol:

[Dfense75]

Tony Stark! BURN IN HELL!! :evil:

[Kumori]

:P heh, they aint getting anything out of me. Although I wouldn't wear a mask and stuff, people could already see my face so why the heck would I need to sign the act?

[Dfense75]

Ironically...They do have to give DNA. They keep that as a matter of record. Iron Man has come up with a way to create nanites that attach to your DNA and can permanently shut off ones powers. Hes used it on She-Hulk. She kinda got mad when she found out Iron Man and the Illuminati shot her brother into deep space against his will. When she rebelled he shot her and shut off her powers. He tried to have Spidermans powers shut off in Intitiative #3 as well. So besides forcing minors into being an army and killing other humans, Putting you into a prison in another dimension without trial or due process, and many other moral and legal transgressions. The Initiative can now fundamentally change your DNA simply because they want to.

[firestar]

Hundreds of people, mostly children, were murdered as a result of a bunch of amateur vigilantes making an amateur mistake....and all for the sake of increasing the ratings of their crappy reality tv show.

With just a bit of proper schooling, they would have known that, where Nitro was concerned, it would have been safer to let him think he was escaping, all the while following him, and then take him out at a more oppurtune time and place.

As it was Namorita slammed him into a school bus, in front of a elementary school that was in session, in the middle of a residential neighbourhood. And then went on to dare him to explode.

I'm not sure if I agree with all of the particular's of the bill, but I do agree with it's spirit. And I believe in leading by example, and an equal application of the law. If you want to fight crime, you have to be trained and in a position where you can be held accountable. By refusing and defying that, you are opening the door to every amateur to throw caution to the wind and show boat....at the expense of the very people you claim to be trying to protect.

As for the "Whose side am I on" logos. I'm on the side of the people. Not Cap's. Not Iron Man's. Not the governments. The side of your average Joe, and the little kids who deserve a chance to feel secure and grow up, and not be incinerated because some brat didn't have the common sense to know how to handle the situation he/she was in.

Nuff said.

i'm totally agree with you. we are not speaking about cap or iron man's side, here, the shra is about people's side.
xavier teached his boys and girls to use their powers, to control them. and their ethic use, too 8yeah,m well, i know good charles sometimes looks like he doesn't know too much about ethic, but you know... it's the thinking the most important part). i don't see why all the other super human don't have to be traineed. and controlled. do you imagine what would happen if people like Scarlet... maybe her... was controlled?probably all this things would never happen.i can desagree with something, for sure, but i can't deny i'm agree with the most of it.

[Kumori]

Wanda...had to do what she did. The Mutants are supposed to be a representation of minorities and yet there were so many. She had to...
But I don't think there was anyone controlling her. She was always a frail person...

back to the act though, what is the purpose of registering if you DON'T WEAR A MASK?

[Barnacle13]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely! I absolutely think Tony Stark has been granted absolute power and is absolutely headed towards absolute corruption.

In a way this reminds me of Orson Scott Card's Enderverse. Take a few Battle School graduates (superheroes) and bring them back to Earth. Soon every nation that has a graduate is looking at ways to expand their borders and influence. And one such graduate Achilles (Iron Man) decides to kidnap Ender's entire jeesh and press them into his scheme to rule the world. Countries with superhumans collecting them into an army has to have ramification around the world far more reaching than border crossings. A paranoid China or Muslim world should be moving to counter this build up of super soldiers. We can only hope that if the Marvel universe heads in this direction Talisman or someone else will rise to take a role similar to Card's Hegemon.

[Barnacle13]

Wanda...had to do what she did. The Mutants are supposed to be a representation of minorities and yet there were so many. She had to...
But I don't think there was anyone controlling her. She was always a frail person...

back to the act though, what is the purpose of registering if you DON'T WEAR A MASK?

I don't see how Wanda had to wipe the mutant gene out. Isn't that what nature or science was doing with the Legacy virus? Why wipe out your own kind, especially if they are the minority? And sure there are a ton of them in the MU, but then that's what the MU is about...people with powers. Mutancy is an easy explanation. MU doesn't typically tell stories about the millions of normal citizens. They are the backdrop of the stories. She could just as easily said no more superhumans and included technology heroes, genetically altered hereos, and highly trained heroes. Then everyone in the MU would be normal and we wouldn't need the SHRA. Of course Marvel would be closing their doors if that happened, but it makes as much sense as getting rid of mutants.

I also like your alternative to the SHRA, make mask wearing illegal! Much simpler to enforce, and you don't have to knock down peoples doors and arrest them because you think they might have a mask they intend to wear in the future.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Ironically...They do have to give DNA. They keep that as a matter of record. Iron Man has come up with a way to create nanites that attach to your DNA and can permanently shut off ones powers. Hes used it on She-Hulk. She kinda got mad when she found out Iron Man and the Illuminati shot her brother into deep space against his will. When she rebelled he shot her and shut off her powers. He tried to have Spidermans powers shut off in Intitiative #3 as well. So besides forcing minors into being an army and killing other humans, Putting you into a prison in another dimension without trial or due process, and many other moral and legal transgressions. The Initiative can now fundamentally change your DNA simply because they want to.

Hmmm...I think the mutants need to get even more paranoid and not trust Tony one iota then...This is so like the Power Neutralizer gun that Forge came up with years ago (first to fight the Dire Wraith invasion, but then Govt agents used it to hunt down Rogue...They shot Storm with it by accident).

Dana

[Kumori]

But can we at least agree on the fact that Wanda is a nutcase?

For the masks, I mean Black Panther-gone. Wolverine - sorry no mask. Unless you have a specific reason (like Deadpool) then all headgear must be illegal. I like that idea :3. Saves the world a giant crossover riot.

[Barnacle13]

But can we at least agree on the fact that Wanda is a nutcase?

For the masks, I mean Black Panther-gone. Wolverine - sorry no mask. Unless you have a specific reason (like Deadpool) then all headgear must be illegal. I like that idea :3. Saves the world a giant crossover riot.

No doubt Wanda is a nutcase. She has been since losing her children way back in the Scarlet Witch/Vision limited series.

[Kumori]

Yep the woman has lost her mind...what a waste of a perfectly good mutant...

[Dfense75]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely! I absolutely think Tony Stark has been granted absolute power and is absolutely headed towards absolute corruption.

In a way this reminds me of Orson Scott Card's Enderverse. Take a few Battle School graduates (superheroes) and bring them back to Earth. Soon every nation that has a graduate is looking at ways to expand their borders and influence. And one such graduate Achilles (Iron Man) decides to kidnap Ender's entire jeesh and press them into his scheme to rule the world. Countries with superhumans collecting them into an army has to have ramification around the world far more reaching than border crossings. A paranoid China or Muslim world should be moving to counter this build up of super soldiers. We can only hope that if the Marvel universe heads in this direction Talisman or someone else will rise to take a role similar to Card's Hegemon.

Speaking of absolute power. Iron Man has had in his possesion prior to Avengers Disassembled...The reality gem. Tony has in his past shown he has an addictive personality (understatement). Give someone like that that power to change reality...Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[SephirothsKiller]

back to the act though, what is the purpose of registering if you DON'T WEAR A MASK?

Which leads back to the whole "but then we couldn't lead normal lives and the villains would kill our families" thing.

[Le Messor]

Unless you have a specific reason (like Deadpool) then all headgear must be illegal.

Good thing I don't ride a motorbike.

- Le Messor
"Dying is not to be feared. It is the final comfort. As we all learn, eventually."
- Robert A. Heinlein

[kozzi24]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely! I absolutely think Tony Stark has been granted absolute power and is absolutely headed towards absolute corruption.
I don't know that it's a matter of Tony Stark being corrupt as he is self-centered. He's a futurist, he know best, and everyone should see things his way. The first attempted SHRA inductions were Cap and Cage...two of Stark's closest friends at the time. Stark's easy to be friends with...just see and do everything his way.

[Powersurge]

Needless to say perhaps, I think that the addage of "absolute power corrupts absolutely" is at the heart of the SRA. And it is quite telling that Stark and the pro-regs are the one's that placed themselves beneath the power of others, and opened their actions to scrutiny and accountability.

And quite the contrast to what was said about Stark, it was the anti-regs that insisted on having everything their own way, and damn everyone else. If someone saw matters differently, they were fascists, "in league with Lucifer", had no clue as to freedom, etc.

Power corrupts. No need for it to be absolute.