Nemesis/es: How many?

[Somebody]

Right now I'm leaning towards three Nemeses, with two swords:

1) Daughter of Deadly Ernest. Red haired. Ugly as sin. Didn't need to maintain contact with her sword. Saw her retribution as a "Holy Quest." Disintegrated after her father died.

2) Unknown, but got N1's sword from the Canadian Gvmnt.

3) Amelia Weatherly. Blonde & Beautiful. Died in the 1910s or 1920s and later resurrected as Nemesis, presumably getting her sword from the same source as N1 (which implies there may be further Nemeses out there). Is practically paralysed when her sword is not in her hand or sheathed next to her body. Left a body for an open-casket funeral.

Anyone disagree? I'm seeing a lot of sources trying to rationalise the three as one character.

[DelBubs]

Honestly 'Somebody' I have no real idea. We had this discussion (http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=129&start=0) a long while back and I'm still non the wiser :shock:

[Ben]

IT's never really been made clear. Lobdell had intended to state that all the Nemesis we have seen up to this point has been the same person, just not always "honest" about who she was. I don't like that personally, and I know the idea of it make Mik go into convulsions. Personally I look at Nemesis as a spiritual embodyment that comes to women seeking vengance after death.

Ben

[-K-M-]

Well if we go by names, there have been three versions. However, as Ben said they are implying there is just one

1) ??? St.Ives
2) Jane
3) Amelia

[Mokole]

Well, Earnest St. Ives daughter may not have had her last name, so that leaves one open. Jane could be short for 'Jane Doe', as Lobdell had it, but that's unlikely (still, we're talking comics here).

Amelia Wetherly could be the one and only Nemesis, but that would be hard to reconcile with the dead one and the 'Jane'.

My best: St. Ives daughter died, dust. Amelia Wetherly rose from a 'death state' to replace her after that, no Jane.

[Ben]

James D Hudnall himself said Jane was for Jane Doe, and it was he who wrote that name into the book.


Ben

[-K-M-]

Diamond Lil called Nemesis Jane in AF #76

[Ben]

Diamond Lil called Nemesis Jane in AF #76

Yes, and some time ago, James Hudnall (who wrote that issue) said that she meant it as an implication of Jane Doe.

Ben

[-K-M-]

Diamond Lil called Nemesis Jane in AF #76

Yes, and some time ago, James Hudnall (who wrote that issue) said that she meant it as an implication of Jane Doe.

Ben

That's fine, I was going by the fact there is still just one Nemesis.

[Ben]

Yah, I had to go that route when I did the Nemesis bio for Alphanex, but it really could go either way. The fact that Jane is Jane Doe was never printed, and the fact that the Nemesis of V.3 was the same one as we have seen all along was never printed, both were said outside of print by creators. Likewise Hudnall said the his Nemesis was a cyborg...but he got yanked from the title before that hit print, so it's all really still up in the air. It's up to the next writer I guess :)

Ben

[Snowsquatch]

Personally I look at Nemesis as a spiritual embodyment that comes to women seeking vengance after death.
I love this idea too.

[Mokole]

What I meant was that 'no Jane' means there was no Nemesis named Jane. I figure, as I said, that Amelia Weatherly could be Earnest St. Ives daughter (maiden name of Mom, maybe) or the original Nemesis turned to dust and Amelia was woman who got the sword and didn't die when she should have.

Circumspect anyway. :wink:

[cmdrkoenig67]

So Mokole....Do you mean that "Jane"(Doe) was really Amelia Weatherly....technically the "second"(there may have been more before St. Ives' daughter) Nemesis? Maybe they're like the Ghost Riders...spirits of vengeance, possessing people to ennact retribution on those who commit evil.

Dana

[Garry/Al-Fan]

IT's never really been made clear. Lobdell had intended to state that all the Nemesis we have seen up to this point has been the same person, just not always "honest" about who she was. I don't like that personally, and I know the idea of it make Mik go into convulsions. Personally I look at Nemesis as a spiritual embodyment that comes to women seeking vengance after death.

Ben

I'm in agreement with Ben and Snowsquatch here, and believe that Nemesis is an embodiment of retribution. I'm catching up on the Hudnall run so I'm not that familiar with the "Jane" version, while the relative of Ernest St. Ives version conveniently disintegrated after the Mantlo appearance but did not after the Byrne appearance. I don't understand that at all. The Mantlo appearance seems to suggest that Ernest St. Ives can't die (or can live again after being hacked to pieces). FULL DISCLOSURE: I don't want either one of the St. Ives to come back. This story should be closed, now.

And I discount the Lobdell version for the very reason that Nemesis is an embodiment of retribution. Even if Walter were able to inhibit her desire to indiscriminately gut people/the members of AF---and it would've been easier to suspend disbelief if we were given a clue why she would want to do this---when she got the first opportunity she'd do him in. Plus, what was she retributing in vol. 3 and how in the world could the government hold her with that sword?

I think there should only be two, continuity-wise: the St. Ives version and the "Jane" version. I'd like to know what the "Jane" version is retributing. Amelia is one of those weird things that has been done to AF that should be de-emphasized, IMO.

[Mokole]

So Mokole....Do you mean that "Jane"(Doe) was really Amelia Weatherly....technically the "second"(there may have been more before St. Ives' daughter) Nemesis? Maybe they're like the Ghost Riders...spirits of vengeance, possessing people to ennact retribution on those who commit evil.

Dana

Yup, that's what I mean. I also would like to see Witchfire become Nemesis, so that would make things clearer, maybe.

[Snowsquatch]

This is my vision of Nemesis. (I posted this in the "movie" thread. Seems relevant here.)


How's this for a plotline: Nemesis sought to destroy Deadly Earnest because she's an agent of Death, sent to retrive those who have escaped him. And who has escaped him lately? Sasquatch? Mac?

And how does Death do this: though the sword Skell. When the sword is touched by someone who knows of one sought by Death, the sword possesses that person (ie becomes Nemesis).

When Deadly Earnest's daughter touched Skell, she became Nemesis. In the movie, a plot element could be "Who is Nemesis now? Who is she looking to kill?"

(None of that is consistent with Nemesis in AF version III, but very consistent with Byrne's AF.)

There is so much we don't know about her, a really creative writer could make her explicable, yet still sinister.

[kozzi24]

I like to think that there were two. Let Lobdell keep his fantasy that the V3 version was the original, but have the "Gamma Flight" version still exist or regain the sword. The Gamma version had a lot that could be worked with, including conncection to Wild Child and the Canadian government, and a very evident dislike for Heather.

[Le Messor]

Suddenly remembering the Trio (Buffy, season 6) having a conversation on the plural for Nemesis. Nemesii?


Lobdell had intended to state that all the Nemesis we have seen up to this point has been the same person, just not always "honest" about who she was. I don't like that personally, and I know the idea of it make Mik go into convulsions.

8) That's for sure! I'm still convulsing! (*,)
Their personalities were so different, the third would be horrible, awful writing if she was the same. Nowhere near as bad, and I can kinda like her, if she's a different one.


Well if we go by names, there have been three versions. However, as Ben said they are implying there is just one
1) ??? St.Ives
2) Jane
3) Amelia Weatherly

Look again. If we just go by names, we may still only have two: we've got a first name but no last name for one, and an assumed last name and no first name for another. Why not Jane St Ives?

Of course, I'm not going just by names, and think of them as three.


Even if Walter were able to inhibit her desire to indiscriminately gut people/the members of AF... Plus, what was she retributing in vol. 3 and how in the world could the government hold her with that sword?

They put a chip in her head, to match the one on her shoulder. Recycling Buffy plot lines. Spike, anyone? {nemesis}
(Hey, somebody had to use the Nemesis smiley!)

Also, Hudnall, I think in the letters page, mentioned that the second "wore a battlesuit, but in a weird kind of way".
Is that where the cyborg thing comes from?
Obviously, that storyline was never followed up.

- Le Messor
"I'm saying that Spike had a little trip to the vet, and now he doesn't chase the other puppies anymore."
- Spike

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...They put a chip in her head, to match the one on her shoulder...

I really think de-emphasizing (as in pretending it never happened) is the best way to deal with Lobdell's "Nemesis." When could "they put a chip in her head," before she became Nemesis (in which case how would they/could they know that Amelia, close to 100 years ago, would become Nemesis) or after she became Nemesis? I wonder who would be the one to try and put a chip in a living embodiment of retribution? Chasen? Clarke? Colcord? Huxley (I'd really like to see him get what's coming to him)? I'm assuming it would be somebody without too much concern about living or dieing.

[Le Messor]

When could "they put a chip in her head," before she became Nemesis (in which case how would they/could they know that Amelia, close to 100 years ago, would become Nemesis) or after she became Nemesis?

During issue 1 or 2 of v3. That's what I got, anyway; Sas captured her, then put the chip in her head. He's been watching Buffy, you see.
(Which I highly commend him for.)

{sas} {nemesis}
](*,)

- Le Messor
"Ahh, it's okay. Gave Cordelia and I chance to spend some quality death time."
- Buffy
"And we got these free corsages."
- Cordelia

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...During issue 1 or 2 of v3. That's what I got, anyway; Sas captured her, then put the chip in her head. He's been watching Buffy, you see....- Le Messor

I don't watch Buffy, so I'm unfamiliar with that reference.

If it can be assumed that Sas was the one who captured Nemesis (and I'm not saying I'm making this assumption; it appeared that the government already had Nemesis in custody before Walter tried to recruit her, if memory serves), then my only other question is: what was she retributing before she was captured? BTW, that Sasquatch/Nemesis fight would've been spectacular if Clayton Henry could've had the opportunity to present it, but the way Sasquatch was handled during vol. 3, I'm glad it didn't happen.

(1) I don't like the cyborg idea and hope that didn't make it into the series proper.

(2) A woman in a costume is a little lame to me, expecially if the reason for being/concept behind "Nemesis" is...

(3) ...a living embodiment of retribution. This is what the character is, IMO.

[Le Messor]

Sas captured her, then put the chip in her head. He's been watching Buffy, you see....- Le Messor
I don't watch Buffy, so I'm unfamiliar with that reference.

In Season 4, most specifically the episode The Initiative, an evil vampire character named Spike (one of Season 2's big bads) got a chip implanted in his head that stopped him being able to hurt human beings without getting a horrible pain in the brain.

I mention that episode, because that's where it's first revealed, in a hilarious scene.
(No, I don't generally know that ep title off the top of my head; I just rewatched the commentary in the last week.)

Am I the only one who "Isn't that what happened to Nemesis later?"


what was she retributing before she was captured?

Scott's take, it's often been said, was that there could be only one Nemesis. So, her father's crimes (Deadly Earnest. Because, yeah, you need that clarification, I'm shurrre). There's no other explanation in canon; though I'm sure there're theories lurking around here somewhere.


(1) I don't like the cyborg idea and hope that didn't make it into the series proper. (2) A woman in a costume is a little lame to me.

There was no canon explanation given for either of the second Nemesii.
Personally, I don't mind the take that the government, having found this potential weapon, used it as such, and made their own Nemesis out of a mystical battlesuit of the original's costume...
Okay, that sounded a lot likelier in my head. It's the theory I used in my story A Taste Of Living.

- Le Messor
"Angel was in your bedroom?" - Xander
"Ours is a forbidden love." - Willow

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...There was no canon explanation given for either of the second Nemesii.
Personally, I don't mind the take that the government, having found this potential weapon, used it as such, and made their own Nemesis out of a mystical battlesuit of the original's costume...
Okay, that sounded a lot likelier in my head....

- Le Messor


I can go along with the idea that the government would think of Nemesis as a weapon to use, I just get the impression that it wouldn't go any better than the WEAPON X people, most of whom don't do what the government intended. [FULL DISCLOSURE: I'm thinking primarily Wolverine and the weird dude from the last issues of vol. 2 that a lot of people seem to like because my knowledge and familiarity with the other WEAPON Xers is very limited]