New Article on Northstar

[ComicBookBin]

It argues about a lot of things, as well as a new name for Northstar. Really, Northstar should get an alternate name in French. What do you guys think?

Here's the article

http://comicbookbin.com/northstar001.html

[Snowsquatch]

Boy, that was a dumb article. Some points:

"While his sister, Aurora is a split personality, Northstar’s history is schizophrenic and really show a lack of understanding from all the authors who worked on him."
Does this guy even know what schizophrenia is? (Kids: don't use words you don't understand.)

"First of all, being a separatist terrorist, and then working for Canadian government secret service and National Defence flies in the face of sound judgment on the part of the government and the individual involved. He willingly accepted to stay with Alpha Flight. A separatist from Quebec would never do that."
When Jean-Paul was a terrorist, he was just a kid. Kids do stupid things. His militant opinions were a way-stop while growing up.

By the time he joined AF, his opinions about things had changed. I don't think he was even a separatist anymore.

"If you ask the average comic book reader in Quebec about Northstar, they will probably remember him as the gay guy, as opposed to Quebec’s leading super hero."
That's because he isn't "Quebec's leading super hero." This whole line of thought is silly. Are we supposed to think Puck is "Toronto's leading super hero?"

"If Northstar was a Québécois nationalist and proud of his Quebec heritage, he would not call himself Northstar. He would be known by a French name like “Boréal” or something more appropriate. This is a major error that Marvel writers have never caught or even fixed. It shows how poorly they understand what should drive a character like Northstar. Northstar is a distinctively English Canadian term. In fact, even if people called him Northstar, he should be pissed off every time it happened."
What? Read that again: "If Northstar was [...] proud of his Quebec heritage, he would not call himself Northstar." What a complete load of crap.

Besides, the notion that Byrne didn't understand his own creation, but this "Hervé St.Louis" guy does, is stupid. He seems to think he knows "what should drive a character like Northstar."

"One could argue that all these developments make him a richer character. I disagree. It makes him stand in for many trends and events in society but we still don’t know much about the character’s personality."
Uh, Northstar has the most distinctive personality in all of AF. Far more distinctive than Mac, Walt, or Michael, that's for sure.

This guy seems to think he understands Northstar better than Byrne did. I think that's ridiculous.

All this "Hervé St.Louis" person has said is: "if I were creating Northstar, he would be a proud nationalist, with a common Quebec name, with a real French code-name, would speak "franglais" accurately, and have a more "quebecois" personality. That's great; but that's not Northstar.

"Gay mutant Northstar is also a strong contender for being Canada’s emblem."
The only accurate thing said in this whole column. Northstar is a Canadian super-hero from Quebec, not a Quebec super-hero.

[ComicBookBin]

Woah. I have a feeling you're using another debate to criticize my article here. What I wrote has nothing to do with the separatist debate in Quebec. And calling me stupid repeatedly is not the way of making an argument.

No French Canadian or French speaking Québécois super hero, if they really existed would be caught using an English name all the time without even having a French equivalent as his main name. You can argue this till the next century, but English, the last time I checked was not Northstar's native language nor original culture.

It's just common sense.

That Byrne created Northstar doesn't mean that he did not used bad clichés and some poor ideas with the character. The name Beaubier, for example may sound French, but it would be hard to find anyone with that name in a Quebec-based phone book.

About Northstar's political allegiances, when I read over my early Alpha Flight comics, I see someone who has no intention of being associated with the Canadian government. The only reason he stays at first, is because of his sister. But after a while, he had no real motive. Also remember how apprehensive he was at first of Alpha Flight and all the English Canadians in it.

My question to you is what's the point of making Northstar being a from Quebec and adding words like "mon ami" and "oui" after everything he says if one should cover the fact that he is a Quebecker.

Would it threathen you, mon cher ami, if Northstar actually looked like he was from Quebec as his creator claimed he was?

[syvalois]

Snowsquatch I don't agree with everything, but that article is not dumb. Actually it so say a lot of interesting stuff.





No French Canadian or French speaking Québécois super hero, if they really existed would be caught using an English name all the time without even having a French equivalent as his main name. You can argue this till the next century, but English, the last time I checked was not Northstar's native language nor original culture.

I do think it's possible that a Quececers used a english codename, but maybe not something as hard to pronounced for a francophone as Northstar.


The name Beaubier, for example may sound French, but it would be hard to find anyone with that name in a Quebec-based phone book.

You should check the name in Alberta, that's where you will fine the name. For me it's close enough.



About Northstar's political allegiances, when I read over my early Alpha Flight comics, I see someone who has no intention of being associated with the Canadian government. The only reason he stays at first, is because of his sister.

I did read it the same way. I figured he is still a proud member of the PQ. I mean how can you go as far as been a terrorist for the cause and completly go to the "ennemy"? No, I found it more believable that the guy saw how stupid the violente way was, but never lost the reason why he join the FLQ, that's why JP should always be a souverainiste.


My question to you is what's the point of making Northstar being a from Quebec and adding words like "mon ami" and "oui" after everything he says if one should cover the fact that he is a Quebecker.

Because most writers don't have a clue what canada is all about, so image the weird place called Québec, no?


Would it threathen you, mon cher ami, if Northstar actually looked like he was from Quebec as his creator claimed he was?

Ah, but that's the same thing people are asking from all the cultural characters. Most is just du to ignorance and deadline. IMO of course. If someone asked me to write about a Norvegian, I think it would be pretty much stereotypical.:P

And thanks for the accent comment, I'm not the only one that complaining about it now.:P

I just think Northstar is not only the gay one or the quebecer one or the whatever one, he is all that and more, that's what makes him interesting and even if I would like to see a more accurate Québec seen in the comic, well, I just hope he will not change name to become Capitaine Québec.

[Snowsquatch]

Woah. I have a feeling you're using another debate to criticize my article here. What I wrote has nothing to do with the separatist debate in Quebec. And calling me stupid repeatedly is not the way of making an argument.
:-k I never called you stupid or criticized anything you said. I was commenting on the article.

This isn't about politics in Quebec or Canada. It's about what Northstar is, and what he isn't.


That Byrne created Northstar doesn't mean that he did not used bad clichés and some poor ideas with the character. The name Beaubier, for example may sound French, but it would be hard to find anyone with that name in a Quebec-based phone book.
Uh, it's a comic book. Everything is a bad cliche: from mad scientists to dull-witted Hulks to orphans-turned-vigilantees. Even the Sasquatch/Aurora romance was just a beauty and the beast fairy tale.

Complaining about Northstar's last name is a waste of time. Too late to complain about that now. Complaining about Northstar's codename is also a waste of time, for the same reason.

All your complaints about Northstar apply equally to other Alphans. Guardian is really just Iron-Man in a skin-tight suit, wearing the flag like Cap't America. Is that really "Canadian," or is it just a bad cliche? Shaman is just Dr Strange in a loin-cloth; Shaman isn't even a native Canadian word (it's Tibetan). Aurora and Puck are inaccurate caricatures of multiple-personality disorder and dwarfism respectively. EDIT: and of course, Puck says "eh?" in every sentence. :roll:


About Northstar's political allegiances, when I read over my early Alpha Flight comics, I see someone who has no intention of being associated with the Canadian government. The only reason he stays at first, is because of his sister. But after a while, he had no real motive. Also remember how apprehensive he was at first of Alpha Flight and all the English Canadians in it.
I too read over my AF stuff. Northstar is no longer a separatist.

From AF#25: "I have done things of which I am no longer proud, it is true. But I did them because I once believed in something. Something I once thought worth fighting for ... even worth dying for."

Northstar's aversion to AF has nothing to do with anglos or government. He just isn't interested in being a super-hero.


My question to you is what's the point of making Northstar being a from Quebec and adding words like "mon ami" and "oui" after everything he says if one should cover the fact that he is a Quebecker.

Would it threathen you, mon cher ami, if Northstar actually looked like he was from Quebec as his creator claimed he was?
Not at all.

But re-writing Northstar into something he isn't doesn't accomplish anything. AF already has far too many continuity problems.

Northstar has a personality: he's a self-centered brat with a checkered past. He was an Olympic skier who cheated. He only joined AF to be close to his sister, not to be a hero. Oh, and he's gay. Everyone in AF knew it, and no one held it against him. They always valued him and wanted him to stay, but he always wanted to leave and be independent. He's a lone wolf, always uncomfortable in a team environment, always resenting authority.

Trying to "shoe-horn" a new "Quebecois" focus into an already complex character will only ruin him and lose focus.

I think you've recognized a "character gap" in comics: no "patriotic hero" emblematic of Quebec. That's fine. Maybe we need one. But what we don't need is yet another unnecessary re-imagining of an already popular super-hero.

What AF needs - more than anything - is a return to the Byrne-era character dynamics.

[Mokole]

It's not unusual for people to switch allegiances. 1960's hippies are now neo-cons, some Reagan neo-cons are now liberals. Change happens, sometimes for the better, sometimes worse. Northstar going from a terrorist to a regular member of society (OK, not now, but in AF) is not unusual.

[syvalois]

It's not unusual for people to switch allegiances. 1960's hippies are now neo-cons, some Reagan neo-cons are now liberals. Change happens, sometimes for the better, sometimes worse. Northstar going from a terrorist to a regular member of society (OK, not now, but in AF) is not unusual.


Totally, but been a souverainiste/separatist is a regular member of society, no? Well, if not about 30 to 40% of the population of Québec is not. And yes people change. My brother do think Northstar is a federalist now, it's a matter of perception.

I do think in my own personal and maybe delusional way, that with Northstar, aurora and Jeanne-Marie, you can cover the big political opinions in Quebec, Northstar =separatist, Jeanne-Marie = federalist and Aurora = je m'en foutisme (I just don't care).

Anyway almost nothing been done in that aspect and usually if done it was horrible. I usually just want a good accent and names to be ok, the rest I think is almost to much to ask. It's like asking Puck to place the "eh" at the rigth place, you know, almost impossible :P

[Snowsquatch]

In some ways, I think Aurora represents more characteristics of Quebec than Northstar.

Aurora's two personalities represent Quebec before and after the "Quiet Revolution." Repressed vs liberated.

[ComicBookBin]

About the Stupid comment the Edit button is a wonderful thing, isn't, eh?

What I want to know is who made you an authority on what Northstar is and what he isn't. The whole "super-hero from Quebec, not a Quebec super-hero" argument is not sound. The guy clearly is a Francophone Quebecker. As such there are things that one would expect from a Quebec character. using an English name is not one of them. It's like an Italian guy using a Chinese name as his monicker. That would sound weird to most. In the case of Northstar it is weird. One of the thing which annoys you about Northstar - his being from Quebec is not something one can brush aside easily.

What's the point of celebrating Canadian super heroes when one favours ignoring the qualities and cultures that compose Canada? Might as well move all of Alpha Flight to Rochester New York. I don't adhere to the unified Canadian view where the little Frenchies gently ignore their cultural identity in favour of a strong, homogenous CANADIAN identity.

Canada is not a unified culture. Many different components and people make up Canada.

Another thing that bugs me in this discussion is how separatism is somehow equated with terrorism. As if it was an evil thing and bad. It is a political view and a reality in Quebec. Myself being from Quebec, I know that people just don't switch to another side.

I feel that English Canadians always feel threatened when they hear about the real Quebec which is part separatist and part federalist.

[Snowsquatch]

About the Stupid comment the Edit button is a wonderful thing, isn't, eh?
What are you talking about? Are you accusing me of something?


What I want to know is who made you an authority on what Northstar is and what he isn't.
I'm no authority. The authority is in the comic books themselves. The comic books say that Northstar was a militant separatist in his youth. However, it is completely silent about his mature political opinions. We don't know anything other than what he said in AF#25.

"But I did them because I once believed in something." Implication: I no longer believe in separatism.


The whole "super-hero from Quebec, not a Quebec super-hero" argument is not sound. The guy clearly is a Francophone Quebecker. As such there are things that one would expect from a Quebec character.
Wrong. These are things you expect from a Quebec character.

This is the truth about Northstar's personality, more-or-less in order:
1) he's a life-long loner
2) he loves his sister more than anything
3) he's a self-centered brat
4) he resents authority-figures
5) he's gay
6) he has no love for the Martin family who raised him
7) he made stupid mistakes when he was young


What's the point of celebrating Canadian super heroes when one favours ignoring the qualities and cultures that compose Canada?
You and I seem to have different expectations from our comic books. You want to see costumed super-heros debate politics and culture. I want to see super-heros fight super-villains and save the day.


I don't adhere to the unified Canadian view where the little Frenchies gently ignore their cultural identity in favour of a strong, homogenous CANADIAN identity.
Neither do I. You're stuffing words in my mouth.

The truth is: NONE of the characters in AF accurately reflect their background. This obsessive focus on Northstar is myopic.


Canada is not a unified culture. Many different components and people make up Canada.
No kidding? Huh!


Another thing that bugs me in this discussion is how separatism is somehow equated with terrorism.
I'm not doing that.


It is a political view and a reality in Quebec. Myself being from Quebec, I know that people just don't switch to another side.
Nobody ever changes their mind in Quebec? :roll:


I feel that English Canadians always feel threatened when they hear about the real Quebec which is part separatist and part federalist.
Again, you're stuffing words in my mouth.

I'm not against this Northstar revisionism for political reasons. This new interpretation just isn't supported by the comic book. Northstar just isn't the "truth, justice, and the Quebecois way" hero you want him to be.

[Snowsquatch]

My critique of this article:

While his sister, Aurora is a split personality, Northstar’s history is schizophrenic and really show a lack of understanding from all the authors who worked on him.
Sounds like everything in Alpha Flight.

BTW, schizophrenia != split personality disorder.

They tagged him with a bunch of Canadian clichés that in the sum, make the character somewhat a parody of recent Canadian history.
Again, sounds like everything in Alpha Flight.

First of all, being a separatist terrorist, and then working for Canadian government secret service and National Defence flies in the face of sound judgment on the part of the government and the individual involved.
The gov't didn't know he had been a terrorist.

He willingly accepted to stay with Alpha Flight. A separatist from Quebec would never do that.
That's like saying a separatist would never join the Army, which we know isn't true.

Besides, there are many, many other possible explanations: maybe he thought he owed a debt to society for being a terrorist in his youth? Or maybe he personally didn't see being a super-hero for Canada conflicted being a separatist for Quebec? After all, he competed for Canada in the Olympics, why can't he protect Canada as a hero? Or maybe he just wasn't a separatist anymore?

Finally, we already KNOW why Northstar stayed: to be with his sister. To Northstar, being with his sister is the most important thing in his life. Definitely more important than politics.

None of the comics ever explored why Northstar went along with terrorists. How could a circus performer be convinced to plant bombs in mailboxes?
Uh, because he was a kid? He felt unloved by his foster parents? He felt isolated because he was gay? He felt outcast because he was a mutant? Desperate people do desperate things all the time.

At most, the French Canadian cultural aspect of Northstar was explored, but never his motivation for an independent Quebec. In hindsight it looks shallow.
Kids do shallow, impulsive things all the time.

(Incidentally, I think Quebec separatism is inherently shallow.)

Northstar was also an Olympic medalist. Although Northstar has super speed powers, in order to achieve all of this, several years are necessary. Northstar is not older than 30 at most however.
Uh, so what?

Another thing that has always bugged me about Northstar and Aurora, is that they family name “Beaubier” is not a frequent family name in Quebec. The only Beaubier from Quebec I can find in search engines, are called Jean-Paul and Jeanne-Marie. They happen to be mutants.
So Byrne screwed up. Get over it.

Speaking of mutants, when he joined the X-Men teaching staff, Jean-Paul Beaubier taught economics and business. Nowhere in the character’s history did the character had any business involvement or experience.
Pointless hair-splitting. Who cares?

Speaking of hair: I'm amazing that this guy didn't complain about Northstar's uncertain hair-color in this endless rant. Is it black with white streaks? White with black streaks?

Perhaps it is no wonder that Norhtstar has no great following in the Province of Quebec.
In case you haven't noticed, Alpha Flight has no great following in Canada, either.

If Northstar was a Québécois nationalist and proud of his Quebec heritage, he would not call himself Northstar. He would be known by a French name like “Boréal” or something more appropriate. This is a major error that Marvel writers have never caught or even fixed.
So Byrne screwed up. Get over it. Re-naming Northstar to stroke the egos of Quebec nationalists is the stupidest part of this whole column.

Northstar’s soap opera history is characteristic of many comic book characters. One could argue that all these developments make him a richer character. I disagree. It makes him stand in for many trends and events in society but we still don’t know much about the character’s personality.
I've already mentioned: Northstar has a far more developed personality than any other member of AF.

We know that he overprotects his sister and is arrogant, but how does that make him different from Marvel’s best known speedster, Quicksilver?
What makes Guardian different from Iron Man? What makes Sasquatch different from the Hulk? What makes Shaman different from Dr Strange?

All this complaining about Northstar is pointless, because he's just like every other character in AF: a copy of a copy of a copy of something else, with a big maple leaf slapped on it.

This character has a lot of potential. However, I’d like to see him in a comic book where he doesn’t cut to French every three words.
I'd like to see Heather behave more like a leader and less like a mother hen. I'd like Puck to grow up and get over his crush on Heather, and stop saying "eh" at the end of every sentence. I'd like Snowbird to go to charm school. I'd like Shaman to behave like a real doctor and recommend therapy for Aurora.

Comic books are loaded with stupid cliches. Stop expecting Shakespeare.

I think it’s time for Northstar to come closer to his Québécois roots. Perhaps one day, Marvel will remember that Northstar is from Quebec.
Perhaps one day, Marvel will put out a decent Alpha Flight comic book. Perhaps, it will be a return to the Byrne-era greatness. Perhaps, it won't be yet another silly revision like the one recommended by Hervé St.Louis.

[SasqFan]

Myself being from Quebec, I know that people just don't switch to another side.

So you want a stereotype that conforms to your view of Quebec?

[SasqFan]

Speaking of hair: I'm amazing that this guy didn't complain about Northstar's uncertain hair-color in this endless rant. Is it black with white streaks? White with black streaks?

Byrne was asked about this on his board in recent months. As I remember it he said the hair is black. It's meant to be so black that the highlights are not the comics standard blue but white.

It was less obvious in their first appearances where the hair looked more white than black to my eyes.

Also, it's unclear who names the Alpha Flight characters. Was it Byrne or Clairemont? Chris was the one who chose the name Alpha Flight based on Weapon Alpha and a flight being a military grouping term. Byrne had suggested "The Canadian Shield" but it was considered too confusing in the Marvel Universe of SHIELD. I seem to recall he was not behind the name Vindicator since he thought Mac had nothing to vindicate for Canada.

Snowbird's secret ID comes from something Byrne did in his fan/early days and her mother's name is actually a nod to an old Canadian comic character / mythos.

He criticized Mantlo's finding a "reason" for Puck's pain when the disease Byrne named for causing the character's dwarfism can, apparently, be painful itself.

As an aside, the yellow costume for Aurora was just part of her story arc and wasn't meant as a permanent change.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Besides, the notion that Byrne didn't understand his own creation, but this "Hervé St.Louis" guy does, is stupid. He seems to think he knows "what should drive a character like Northstar."

"One could argue that all these developments make him a richer character. I disagree. It makes him stand in for many trends and events in society but we still don’t know much about the character’s personality."
Uh, Northstar has the most distinctive personality in all of AF. Far more distinctive than Mac, Walt, or Michael, that's for sure.

This guy seems to think he understands Northstar better than Byrne did. I think that's ridiculous.

Snowy...Maybe "Comicbins" is Monsieur St Louis?
Dana

[Snowsquatch]

Maybe. But look at his original post. He certainly didn't give any indications. I don't think it matters much one way or the other.

[HappyCanuck]

Okay, as amicable as most of the parties involved in this discussion are being, I see a potential blow-out coming. I'm not going to point fingers, but ask that you all either keep the debate rational (I have no qualms about healthy debates), or rein it in and end it. I don't want to have to end this by moderating. Let's keep it respectful people.

[Le Messor]

Allan, I disrespect that. :P

Snowy; from his first post, I imagined ComicBookBin wasn't the author; but from his second, I figured he was. So, linking to his article, he decided not to tell us he'd written it. (I've done basic'ly the same thing myself, but not here). He got defensive when you got personal about the author, not realising the author would actually read it.

CBB: Confirm / Deny?

I had a couple of quibbles with the article. The main one being a profound misunderstanding of Northstar's motives, which CBB seems to continue in his postings. CBB Note: When he first joined, he joined for his sister. You say later he lost his motive for being in AF? When his sister broke up with him, he quit the team.
Afterwards, he was the victim of bad writing / retcons, same as the rest of the team.

I imagine Mac gave him the name, and he didn't care enough about it to protest. It's clear he didn't respect the whole concept anyway ('These silly games of costumes and death'; or was that not him? )

He -should- have an accurate accent.

Beaubier? Sylvie has protested that name before. But my feeling is, if the name exists (and it does), it can exist -anywhere-, even if it isn't representative of the local flavour. People move.

Totally agree that this sudden business thing was a load of garbage. But AF have faced a lot of that over the years. :(

- Le Messor
"A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies."
- Oscar Wild, Picture of Dorian Gray

[kozzi24]

Boy, that was a dumb article. Some points:

"While his sister, Aurora is a split personality, Northstar’s history is schizophrenic and really show a lack of understanding from all the authors who worked on him."
Does this guy even know what schizophrenia is? (Kids: don't use words you don't understand.)

BTW, schizophrenia != split personality disorder.

The author of the article was RIGHT, so you may be embarassed by you montage of "Kids: don't use words you don't understand".
MPD is NOT schizophrenia. Think paranoid schizophrenia, which does describe in many describe Northstar, at least early in his existence.

Paraphrased quote from http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/schiz.html:

A person with schizophrenia often suffers from terrifying symptoms such as hearing internal voices not heard by others, or believing that other people are reading their minds, controlling their thoughts, or plotting to harm them. These symptoms may leave them fearful and withdrawn.
...the disorder often appears earlier in men, usually in the late teens or early twenties...persisting consequences of the illness—lost opportunities, stigma, residual symptoms, and medication side effects—may be very troubling.
...false yet strongly held personal beliefs that result from an inability to separate real from unreal experiences. Less obvious symptoms, such as social isolation or withdrawal, or unusual speech, thinking, or behavior, may precede, be seen along with, or follow the psychotic symptoms.

Some of his history with the team:
He joined ot get to know his sister, and even that was marginal. He only joined the battle in Marvel 2-in-1 when he saw media reports of Aurora being endangered.
He quit when Aurora dissolved their association, yet, in one of the peaks at the dynamics of his character, he stayed with Heather longest (IIRC) at Mac's funeral before retreating, possibly because he could not deal with seeing someone else he knew die...think of his family history and the AIDS crisis.)
He was FORCED to aid Alpha in V1#24.
His motives for staying in AF 25-28 were questionable. Staying as long as he did in Mantlo's run was at least in the beginning because Aurora, faced with the death of her lover, needed him.
He might have been impressed that not just Aurora, but Goblyn and Persuasion helped rescue him from Asgard.
He did develop a strong friendship with Heather, shown most obviously by his respect for her decision in Building Blocks--getting Pathway (or was it Goblyn?) to a hospital rather than hunting WildChild--and in the NS LS.
Other team members were NOT, especially in the Byrne run, supporrtive of his presence on the team. When he declined rejoining in Heather's first reorganization of the team after Mac's death, Puck basically said no loss and Heather did not disagree. When Aurora ratted out his past to the team, they considered permanently bouncing him in #25.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Allan, I disrespect that. :P

Snowy; from his first post, I imagined ComicBookBin wasn't the author; but from his second, I figured he was. So, linking to his article, he decided not to tell us he'd written it.

Hey...I already said that, a couple of messages ago.

Dana :wink:

[cmdrkoenig67]

Boy, that was a dumb article. Some points:

"While his sister, Aurora is a split personality, Northstar’s history is schizophrenic and really show a lack of understanding from all the authors who worked on him."
Does this guy even know what schizophrenia is? (Kids: don't use words you don't understand.)

BTW, schizophrenia != split personality disorder.

The author of the article was RIGHT, so you may be embarassed by you montage of "Kids: don't use words you don't understand".
MPD is NOT schizophrenia. Think paranoid schizophrenia, which does describe in many describe Northstar, at least early in his existence.

Paraphrased quote from http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/schiz.html:

A person with schizophrenia often suffers from terrifying symptoms such as hearing internal voices not heard by others, or believing that other people are reading their minds, controlling their thoughts, or plotting to harm them. These symptoms may leave them fearful and withdrawn.
...the disorder often appears earlier in men, usually in the late teens or early twenties...persisting consequences of the illness—lost opportunities, stigma, residual symptoms, and medication side effects—may be very troubling.
...false yet strongly held personal beliefs that result from an inability to separate real from unreal experiences. Less obvious symptoms, such as social isolation or withdrawal, or unusual speech, thinking, or behavior, may precede, be seen along with, or follow the psychotic symptoms.

Some of his history with the team:
He joined ot get to know his sister, and even that was marginal. He only joined the battle in Marvel 2-in-1 when he saw media reports of Aurora being endangered.
He quit when Aurora dissolved their association, yet, in one of the peaks at the dynamics of his character, he stayed with Heather longest (IIRC) at Mac's funeral before retreating, possibly because he could not deal with seeing someone else he knew die...think of his family history and the AIDS crisis.)
He was FORCED to aid Alpha in V1#24.
His motives for staying in AF 25-28 were questionable. Staying as long as he did in Mantlo's run was at least in the beginning because Aurora, faced with the death of her lover, needed him.
He might have been impressed that not just Aurora, but Goblyn and Persuasion helped rescue him from Asgard.
He did develop a strong friendship with Heather, shown most obviously by his respect for her decision in Building Blocks--getting Pathway (or was it Goblyn?) to a hospital rather than hunting WildChild--and in the NS LS.
Other team members were NOT, especially in the Byrne run, supporrtive of his presence on the team. When he declined rejoining in Heather's first reorganization of the team after Mac's death, Puck basically said no loss and Heather did not disagree. When Aurora ratted out his past to the team, they considered permanently bouncing him in #25.

I have to add something, Kozzi...We know that Jean Paul had little love for english-speaking folks (maybe even the Martin family spoke primarily english...Perhaps he felt his heritage/culture was threatened, growing up in an english-speaking foster family...or perhaps he hated them, because they discovered his "secret" and rejected him for it? We don't know enough about them to tell)...He also had no love for the Canadian govt (or working for them, for that matter)....The "hook" Mac Hudson used to ensnare Jean Paul, was the sister he never knew of...We all know that was his primary reason for staying with the team (at least in the beginning).

However...It is not beyond reason to believe that He would grow to love the people in Alpha Flight as the family (as dysfunctional as it was) he never truly had. I think that's why he stayed so long with Heather at Mac's funeral, why he refused to abandoned the team, even when they learned of his past, why he kept coming back...even after quitting, retiring, etc...To him..they became home and family...and I think he truly cares about them (even Walter, whom he always claimed to loathe).

Dana

[Snowsquatch]

Boy, that was a dumb article. Some points:

"While his sister, Aurora is a split personality, Northstar’s history is schizophrenic and really show a lack of understanding from all the authors who worked on him."
Does this guy even know what schizophrenia is? (Kids: don't use words you don't understand.)

BTW, schizophrenia != split personality disorder.

The author of the article was RIGHT, so you may be embarassed by you montage of "Kids: don't use words you don't understand".
MPD is NOT schizophrenia. Think paranoid schizophrenia, which does describe in many describe Northstar, at least early in his existence.

Paraphrased quote from http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/schiz.html:

A person with schizophrenia often suffers from terrifying symptoms such as hearing internal voices not heard by others, or believing that other people are reading their minds, controlling their thoughts, or plotting to harm them. These symptoms may leave them fearful and withdrawn.
...the disorder often appears earlier in men, usually in the late teens or early twenties...persisting consequences of the illness—lost opportunities, stigma, residual symptoms, and medication side effects—may be very troubling.
...false yet strongly held personal beliefs that result from an inability to separate real from unreal experiences. Less obvious symptoms, such as social isolation or withdrawal, or unusual speech, thinking, or behavior, may precede, be seen along with, or follow the psychotic symptoms.

Some of his history with the team:
He joined ot get to know his sister, and even that was marginal. He only joined the battle in Marvel 2-in-1 when he saw media reports of Aurora being endangered.
He quit when Aurora dissolved their association, yet, in one of the peaks at the dynamics of his character, he stayed with Heather longest (IIRC) at Mac's funeral before retreating, possibly because he could not deal with seeing someone else he knew die...think of his family history and the AIDS crisis.)
He was FORCED to aid Alpha in V1#24.
His motives for staying in AF 25-28 were questionable. Staying as long as he did in Mantlo's run was at least in the beginning because Aurora, faced with the death of her lover, needed him.
He might have been impressed that not just Aurora, but Goblyn and Persuasion helped rescue him from Asgard.
He did develop a strong friendship with Heather, shown most obviously by his respect for her decision in Building Blocks--getting Pathway (or was it Goblyn?) to a hospital rather than hunting WildChild--and in the NS LS.
Other team members were NOT, especially in the Byrne run, supporrtive of his presence on the team. When he declined rejoining in Heather's first reorganization of the team after Mac's death, Puck basically said no loss and Heather did not disagree. When Aurora ratted out his past to the team, they considered permanently bouncing him in #25.

Kozzi, none of your "evidence" remotely resembles schizophrenia. :roll:

[HappyCanuck]

Actually, Squatch, Jeff described it correctly. You misphrased when you said "schizophrenia != split personality disorder". MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder) and schizophrenia are two separate disorders. The information Jeff posted on schizophrenia is primarily correct.

[Snowsquatch]

I have to add something, Kozzi...We know that Jean Paul had little love for english-speaking folks (maybe even the Martin family spoke primarily english...Perhaps he felt his heritage/culture was threatened, growing up in an english-speaking foster family...or perhaps he hated them, because they discovered his "secret" and rejected him for it? We don't know enough about them to tell)
According to AF#10 page19, Northstar "only speaks French" went he first met Gary Cody, Mac, and his sister. Presumably, he learns English between then and the first X-Men appearance.

Can anyone here point to an issue where Northstar actually says he dislikes anglos? I don't think I've ever seen it.

[Snowsquatch]

Actually, Squatch, Jeff described it correctly. You misphrased when you said "schizophrenia != split personality disorder". MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder) and schizophrenia are two separate disorders. The information Jeff posted on schizophrenia is primarily correct.
I know MPD and schizophrenia are not the same. :roll:

Jeff's posted info on schizophrenia is correct, but his interpretation of Northstar's behaviour as schizophrenic isn't. Northstar is not a schizophrenic.

[HappyCanuck]

oops, my bad, misinterpretted.

but again, he's not CLINICALLY schizophrenic, he DOES exhibit some baseline paranoid schizophrenic qualities as described, especially in Byrne's run...

[kozzi24]

I agree to a large extent, Dana, but I always cringe the way "surrogate family" is thrown about, in comic team books and in the real world.
Alpha was a group of people who worked together. Co-workers can seem like "family" just because we spend more time in our weeks...40+ out of 168 hours...than we do our family.

I am sure he'd come to accept and even love some of his teammates/co-workers, and I think Heather was first among them.
With Puck, awkwardness about NS's orientation was evident in the Byrne issues. I'll cite #12, with Puck's thought-balloon surprise that NS was his ride to battle, AND in the depiction of that flight...Puck most definitely does not look like he was holding tight enough for a high speed, unsheltered flight through the sky. By #106, I'm sure he appreciated Puck's supportive presence during the vigil for the baby Joanne.

He was never shown to have bonded with Snowbird or Shaman. No change from the (Mantlo biased) antagonism between NS and Madison Jeffries was ever shown aside NS's willingness to sit and have a drink with his co-workers, including Puck, in #105. I don't think he was ever close with Mac. Wjen Mac was revealed as alive in Nicienza's run, NS referred to him only by his last name, not a sign of friendliness.

He seemed friendly with Lil during Nicienza's run, particularly after she obtained the means for her own biopsy.

It's actually that panel with Lil that gives my writer's mind some subtle consistency to his character and interrelations with other chracters. Northstar will not love you unless he respects you, and one thing that seems to gain his respect is showing that you will do WHATEVER IT TAKES for your needs and beliefs. He may not agree with the action, but he'll respect it.
Hudson needed to build a team: while NS may have disliked Hudson, I think he respected Mac's willingness to use Aurora to recruit NS.
I think he respected Heather's hard choice in dealing with Snowbird/Pestilence, and Lil's extreme measure to find a way to make the biopsy happen.

Most other members just seem accepted as part of his Alpha-centric life.

EXCEPT Walter Langkowski.

Solomon's spell in #24 would not have worked (despite it being a trick) without one who loved him, one of great power and one who hated him. Mantlo started the drivel of NS really secretly like him, referring to it at least twice, the first time while NS comforted Aurora in #29...WAAAAAAYY to soon for any development between NS and Langkowski to have changed the perception of events in #24. (Any time there is inconsistency, I default to Byrne's version.) In #116 (or so, maybe a few issues prior) NS was VERY quick to jump on Langkowski concerning Aurora. He didn't ask Langkowski to be careful with Aurora, he warned Langkowski away: not how you handle it if you like the person at all.

The only real positive interaction between NS and Langkowski I remember was when Walt was Wanda. (And due to Mantlo's biases, it's something of a bad example because the conversation was "I preferred you as the man you were.") Eye candy is my explanation to rectify the writers' differences in characterization. Some of NS's dislike may also be based on stereotypes. NS became an athlete when he learned he could fly. Langkowski was a football jock, and something of a bully (w/Puck in #1, NS in #12, etc.) NS grew up as a thin gay orphan...don't tell me he was not the victim of bullying by the jock clique in high school, or that Walt comes off as anything but part of that clique.

NS seems to actually bond better with women--Lil, Heather, "Wanda," Clementine--than he does with men; the lack of all sexual tension explains that easily enough.

The death of the Martins has never been explored AT ALL, so the reasons for his rancor towards them is unexplained. But taking the defensiveness of the early character, it may simply be bitterness that in dying, they left him.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Sigh...fine...I'm wrong. I guess I just don't know the characters as well as the rest of you (insert extreme sarcasm anywhere here).

:roll:

[Mokole]

I figure Northstar is oppositional-defiant, always with a chip on his shoulder.

Split personality disorder is known as 'schizoid', hence the mix-up with schizophrenia. Schizoid is linked to MPD, many people say, "Two of you, schizoid, more, MPD."

Anyway I always saw Northstar as having a mad-on for the world. Occasionally he mellows but then... :shock:

[kozzi24]

Hey Dana, lighten up!

Snowie, let me cut the same quote further to get the overlap in the characteristics shown by NS particularly in the Byrne run:


plotting to harm them. These symptoms may leave them fearful and withdrawn.
...the disorder often appears earlier in men, usually in the late teens or early twenties{regretting} lost opportunities, stigma, .
...false yet strongly held personal beliefs that result from an inability to separate real from unreal experiences. Less obvious symptoms, such as social isolation or withdrawal, or unusual speech, thinking, or behavior, may precede
Northstar was definitely withdrawn and isolated, in part by choice. I'm not sure he didn't KNOW English when he first joined Department H...my interpretation was always that he REFUSED to speak English to accommodate the Anglos.

As Allen said,
he's not CLINICALLY schizophrenic, he DOES exhibit some baseline paranoid schizophrenic qualities as described, especially in Byrne's run...

I did not mean to come off assigning a full textbook case to the character, but meant only to defend that particular word choice in the article.

[Snowsquatch]

Northstar was definitely withdrawn and isolated, in part by choice.
I don't think that's true. Northstar wasn't avoiding AF so he could spent time in isolation. He was returning to pre-AF friends. Remember the phone call from Heather in AF#18? Northstar is in a pool, with two friends in the background.

I don't want to sound like a know-it-all, but I think everyone is grasping at straws. I think NS was an arrogant brat. I don't think his arrogant brattiness was a sign of anglo-hatred or mental problems.

[ComicBookBin]

About the schizophrenia, please note that I wrote that Northstar's history is schizophrenic, not the character....

[Mokole]

One thing, too, is that we're all tryng to guess what the writers' meant for Northstar, if he was meant to be angry, sour, a loner, family-oriented, whatever. After all, when he appears in X-Men 189 he may be portrayed as a narcissist for all we know. :o

[Le Messor]

Dana, apologies for repeating you. :(

The use of the word 'schizophrenia'; as CBC pointed out, he used it to mean NStar's history, not the character.
He used the word correctly. Schizophrenia does mean MPD--but, not in the technical sense. As a layman's term, MPD is exactly what it means. As a professional term... check earlier posts.

- Le Messor
"A man's work is nothing but a long journey to recover through the detours of art the two or three simple and great images which first gained access to his heart."
- Albert Camus

[cmdrkoenig67]

Dana, apologies for repeating you. :(


Huh?

Dana

[Le Messor]

Allan, I disrespect that. :P
Snowy; from his first post, I imagined ComicBookBin wasn't the author; but from his second, I figured he was. So, linking to his article, he decided not to tell us he'd written it.
Hey...I already said that, a couple of messages ago.
Dana :wink:

... is what I was referring to. :wink:

- LM