Alpha/Omega

[DelBubs]

I'm gonna leave it here Dana, a comic book is not worth falling out over. I'll remain optimistic and you can remain pessemistic. When the time comes and if your proved right, then you can give me all the told you so's you want. If I'm right, I'll just read the book and be glad that Alpha or some semblence of Alpha is getting the respect they deserve.

As regard the Beta thing, your mind is already half made up about a premise that doesn't even exist.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Dana:

Thanks for your suggestions and while I do appreciate the sentiment, the goal for us is to create a successful title. While Alpha Flight does have it's following, in the past it hasn't been a big enough following to keep the book afloat for a sustained period of time. Our goal is to hopefully refresh the concept and have it appeal to the old fans and hopefully enough new that we can continue publishing it for years to come. Will this work, I don't know, there are no guarantees in the entertainment biz, but we're going to be giving it our best shot. Hopefully you'll give the new title a shot and hopefully we can deliver the goods.

Be well,
JQ

Like I said...Hogwashery.

Dana
Care to elaborate, cos I don't see hogwashery, just a well reasoned response.

Ten years isn't a sustained period of time? Giving it their best shot (is it really their best shot...One would think, actually giving the real AF/well-written and illustrated a try would be giving it their "best shot")? I don't see how this would be "delivering the goods" at all...It isn't Alpha Flight, but they're certainly trying to pass it off as a acceptable substitute (in their opinion). "Refreshing the concept" would be dusting off the old and reviving what made them special and sellable, not replacing the concept almost entirely (a team of characters with no connections to the old, save for one member...A new title (associated with the enemies of said original concept team)...A cast of non-Canadian heroes on a Canada-based team).

It's ill-disquised "peacetalk".

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'm gonna leave it here Dana, a comic book is not worth falling out over. I'll remain optimistic and you can remain pessemistic. When the time comes and if your proved right, then you can give me all the told you so's you want. If I'm right, I'll just read the book and be glad that Alpha or some semblence of Alpha is getting the respect they deserve.

As regard the Beta thing, your mind is already half made up about a premise that doesn't even exist.

I'm not trying to fight with you, Del (and just because I disagree with you, it doesn't mean I am pessimistic about AF...Not in the least)...I'm merely expressing my opinions/disappointment and frustration at the news of no Alpha Flight and this sad place-filler....Please don't take any of it personally.

I still don't see any respect for AF or it's fans in this book...Alpha Flight is dead...It doesn't get any more disrespectful than that IMHO. This bull-oney that killing the team gives them new life is just that...Bull. Sure, AF fans and others are talking about the group's being owned...But yet again, AF was shown to be weak, a joke and not worth caring about (on Marvel's part). We disagree on a lot of it and that's okay.

I was mostly joking about the Beta concept, if you couldn't tell.

Dana :wink:

[DelBubs]

I would have loved an Alpha Flight that contained all the originals and was as good as what Byrne originally gave us. I'm pissed that Bendis wiped them out off panel. Thing is, I want an Alpha, now we can wait for god knows how long, maybe forever for our ideal Alpha or hope that with Oeming on the book we see some semblence of it x amount of issues down the line. I'd rather some Alpha than non at all.

I totally agree that Alpha has constantly been treated as third raters and that sucks, but you can't change the past.

As for the Beta thing, I hate your line up :D :shock: :lol: I want Frogman, Stiltman and Caliber.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I would have loved an Alpha Flight that contained all the originals and was as good as what Byrne originally gave us. I'm pissed that Bendis wiped them out off panel. Thing is, I want an Alpha, now we can wait for god knows how long, maybe forever for our ideal Alpha or hope that with Oeming on the book we see some semblence of it x amount of issues down the line. I'd rather some Alpha than non at all.

I totally agree that Alpha has constantly been treated as third raters and that sucks, but you can't change the past.

As for the Beta thing, I hate your line up :D :shock: :lol: I want Frogman, Stiltman and Caliber.

LOL...Eh...I was going for rough analogues to the Omega team (i.e. a Thor-wannabee, Former Force Works/Avengers characters and a former Alphan)...And the new Ant-Man just because...well...he's new and shiny (not that I care about him, though....Poor Scott Lang).

As for waiting for my ideal AF?...I'll keep the candle lit and plan to...Uh nevermind. Maybe Quesada will quit as E.I.C. soon and somebody with more of an open mind will take the job (crosses fingers and holds breath............................................>gasp<...Okay...scratch the breath-holding part).

Dana :D

[varo]

i can see both sides of the debate, i am also a diehard af flight, series 1 issue 1. and i am also disapointed in the faxct that the original team i associate with alpha flight will not be making up this new un-alpha series. but those characters have not been together or the same for a very long time.

it would take a good year to year and a half to try to explain the originals past before they would be able to move forward with good stories. the twins have been dead/undea/teachers/evil. sasquatch has been a great beats/dead/box/woman snowbird has been dead/alive and don't even get me started on mac. plus the originals were in space then pulled from shamans pouch. :shock:

as much as we want the originals back and to be given a shot, i hate to admit it but joe q is right, it would only be us hardcore/longterm af fans, and in a year or 2 we would be screaming that we lost another series.

you should really catch up on some of oemings past work. ares and stormbreaker for starters. as soon as i heard he was the new writer i purchased the tpb's and trust me the series is in good hands.

dana, i completely understand where your coming from and agree to a extent, but i think the series is in good hands.

[cmdrkoenig67]

i can see both sides of the debate, i am also a diehard af flight, series 1 issue 1. and i am also disapointed in the faxct that the original team i associate with alpha flight will not be making up this new un-alpha series. but those characters have not been together or the same for a very long time.

it would take a good year to year and a half to try to explain the originals past before they would be able to move forward with good stories. the twins have been dead/undea/teachers/evil. sasquatch has been a great beats/dead/box/woman snowbird has been dead/alive and don't even get me started on mac. plus the originals were in space then pulled from shamans pouch. :shock:

Nah...writers needn't get too hung up on continuity...It spoils the fun of further adventures. IMHO...It would not take a year to clear up the mess that was left of Alpha...Well...maybe if the current "written for trade" crap applies. I truly believe it could be done in a single first issue (double-sized).


as much as we want the originals back and to be given a shot, i hate to admit it but joe q is right, it would only be us hardcore/longterm af fans, and in a year or 2 we would be screaming that we lost another series.

My point still stands and Joe Q. is not right (IMHO)...What hasn't been tried, shouldn't be kept from being tried....Nor should it be judged a failure before being tried (I haven't truly said that about Omega Flight either...so please nobody try and throw that in my face).


you should really catch up on some of oemings past work. ares and stormbreaker for starters. as soon as i heard he was the new writer i purchased the tpb's and trust me the series is in good hands.

dana, i completely understand where your coming from and agree to a extent, but i think the series is in good hands.

I'll pass on Stormbreaker and Ares, Varo...I care not a lick for either of the titles' characters. I hope Oeming does succeed with this series, but I won't help in that success...if it isn't Alpha-licious enough...It's as simple as that.

Dana "I'm outta here, for now..." Smith

[syvalois]

Me, I see Af like a classic, you just can write again Watchmen. Who would do Starway to heaven or Apocalypse now? Even Byrme could not write as good now what he did then. The step is too high. The expectation too.

The king is dead! Long live the king as some might say.

As always I'm not good in explaining myself, but today I don't feel like explaining more. I'm going to do my philosophical and mysterious person for now:)

[Ben]

as for the comments about Alpha Flight being dead, I'd say this means nothing more than how Joe Q said they were going to "kill" Speedball. The team name is currently "dead" with OF taking thier place. Maybe this is out of respect for the AF team while they recover from thier injuries.

I guess my point is not to take the term "dead" too literally.

Ben

[Legerd]

In laymans terms, Alpha Flight is f.u.b.a.r. Your right, it is wrong for Marvel to blame the product, they should be looking at themselves for ever allowing Seagle and Lobdell to further damage an already damaged concept. So what should they do ? Slap a plaster on it and hope the wounds will heal. "Lets just do it as Alpha Flight, with very little or no damage repair, that'll keep the Alpha fans happy". From what I'm hearing here, it prolly would keep us happy, but AF vol 4 goes the way of all flesh after a x amount of issues. So instead they ask Mike Oeming to do a major repair job which will prolly involve concepts that don't immediately appeal to the fans. What should we do, b***h about it before we even see what Oeming is gonna do or wait and see?

When we see that Mac isn't in the team, then surely that is the time to b***h? When we see Omega Flight become Avengers North in all but name, then that's the time to b***h. Negativity breeds further negativity, lets give Oeming the benefit of the doubt for now and b***h like unpaid whores if it all goes tits up. Not much to ask.

Sorry DB but I feel I have the right to say what I feel about what Marvel (not Mike Oeming) has done to my favourite comic characters. I didn't think what I wrote was so extreme as to deserve you saying I was "*****ing like an unpaid whore".

I have nothing against Oeming or his OF, my disappoinment has to do with, yet again, how Marvel considers AF a losing property. If a businessman tells everyone his product is crap and makes it out to be a joke is it any wonder why people would start to echo his sentiments? Hell, they even have you saying AF is beyond saving.

I may or may not pick up OF depending on if I think it is worth my time. I'm not going to pick it up, because it might lead to a more AF team in the future as that has failed to happen twice in the past. If it does, fantastic! I'll thank Oeming (and maybe even Joe Q - but not Bendis) for giving us back AF, but at this point I'm tired of waiting. And, if nothing is set in stone for the series yet, then maybe being the squeaky wheel will get Mac in the new book. If it does, I would definitely pick it up.

[DelBubs]

Legard, before we go to far down this path. I was not saying you were *****ing like an unpaid whore. If you re-read what I wrote I think you'll see that. The analogy is suppose to show that we can ***** to our hearts content and as vehemently as we want if Omega Flight doesn't do it for us.

If I've offended you then I can only apologise, it was not my intention. I did not mean to offend and I'm sorry you took it personal. ](*,)

[Legerd]

I'm sorry DB, I guess I read too much into what you said. Don't worry all's good 'tween us. 8)

[DelBubs]

Forgotten already Legerd. To shift the onus a little, Mike Oeming is at Baltimore Con this weekend, Joe Q is doing a Cup Of Joe special on Monday night. So hopefully some info will be forthcoming.

(Edited for ****ty spelling, 'Legard' indeed.) :oops:

[Mokole]

I figure most of the Omega Flight talk is getting a bit counter-productive. No point in complaining about something that doesn't exist yet. OK, some complaining, but not every post :)

After all, Oeming never said that Guardian wasn't Mac Hudson but people are going to pieces thinking that. Because Oeming didn't say "Hudson is Guardian". People keep looking for disconnects to keep them awake at night. I'm with Sylvie on this one. :mrgreen:

I doubt Oeming, in his way, is trying to do anything sneaky with what he says, like Joe Q does. He won't say who Guardian is, if that's Talisman, because he's not supposed to.

Did Excalibur fans go all goofy thinking it wasn't the real Captain Britain? I doubt it, of course, given House of M, but when Hudson and Talisman show up in Civil War to crack shellhead's butt and some SHIELD heads, that'll make everyone happy!

I'm happy I'm no english major (Math, baby!) and am not a fan of reading between the lines and trying to uncover hidden messages. OK, I do some, but not much (you would've hated me in poetry dissertation...). :shock:

It's Beta Ray Bill, Guardian, Talisman, and US Agent, and Arachne. Unless the promo pic is altered it's them.

Do you guys and gals really think they'd bring back Flight with no connection to the past? Kind of like doing a 'Gone With the Wind' sequel with Hungarian immigrants, or the next 'Harry Potter' being about a magical salamander with a lightning bolt on his forehead.

The team will be lead by at least 2 AFers, former Alpha Flight members will be prominent in the book, maybe even running Department H, maybe as citizens they run in to, maybe as enemies, maybe as beer buddies, maybe as co-workers, likely as all of the above. I'm down with that :wink:

Sorry to sound like I'm beating you over the head with my logic, I can be waaaay more fiery than this though :twisted:

[Mokole]

Aaargh! What are you guys doing posting while I'm formatting my post! Here I am trying to level the playing field and get us back to being all excited about the new Flight book and you guys are all shaking hands and going out for a drink!

And you never invited me.... :cry:

Guardian
Talisman
Beta Ray Bill
Arachne
US Agent (as the jerk)

Heather as wife and mother and more
and other AF roles I can't guess at, yet.

[Mokole]

Plus, here's an idea: why can't Marvel says really anything about Omega Flight without spoiling plot points in Civil War? Even at Baltimore Con Joe Q refused to say anything about the book at all.

Because US Agent and Arachne, maybe more, will need to be saved from SHIELD and, by plan or accident, remnants of Alpha Flight rescue them! :D

You know, they are on the run, reps from Canada show up in Washnigton to get mad at the locals for how Civil War is hurting innocent Canadians, then bam, a fight spills over to them, they join in and rescue the ones losing after US Agent and Arachne (and others) beg them for help. OR they're prisoners in chains and AF is asked to rescue them from the indignity. After all, you know Talisman could breach the File 42 prison in the Negative Zone :D

I'm pretty sure I've got it now.... :shock:

[-K-M-]

I happen to agree with cmdrkoenig67, at first I was very excited now I have a bitter taste in my mouth. However, I won't complain yet as I have yet to see Oeming's master plan or how this ties together.

I'm still upset about the classic team.

[DelBubs]

http://nefariouslabs.r30.net/Dead%20Horse.jpg

[-K-M-]

I also agree with your perspective to Del, I'm excited there will be a new series and have been promoting it on other boards. I just still have the bitter taste in my mouth.

I will still be buying it though, no questions asked.

[mos_def]

if Ben says AF is dead and Omega is taking their place as a name, then Ill go with that. Even if it aint from a source, Ben knows alot from insiders. Maybe he is slipping with info due to marriage. Maybe he knows everything. Maybe Ben is behind Civil War. HMmmmmm. Or maybe was just giving his opinion without any inside source. Let hope live, Ben

[-K-M-]

if Ben says AF is dead and Omega is taking their place as a name, then Ill go with that. Even if it aint from a source, Ben knows alot from insiders. Maybe he is slipping with info due to marriage. Maybe he knows everything. Maybe Ben is behind Civil War. HMmmmmm. Or maybe was just giving his opinion without any inside source. Let hope live, Ben

Their not all dead, here's why I think so.....

NRAMA: Now, assuming this is the line-up – though perhaps minus an addition or two - a lot of characters associated with Alpha Flight in the past aren’t present. What role – if any – will characters line Heather Hudson, Puck, Sasquatch, Northstar, and Aurora, etc… play in this series?

MO: Oh, we will be seeing them again soon enough. I will say this - part of the idea of moving on is that they are done with Flight. Imagine being in an epic rock band, and a few of your members dies. A year later people demand your reunion and the group is being reformed... you might not like that. Your band is gone, young memories lie in the past, for you, its time to move on and hope the new band either falls off a cliff or they carry on and honor the name. We'll see both reactions.

[DelBubs]

Plus, here's an idea: why can't Marvel says really anything about Omega Flight without spoiling plot points in Civil War? Even at Baltimore Con Joe Q refused to say anything about the book at all.

Because US Agent and Arachne, maybe more, will need to be saved from SHIELD and, by plan or accident, remnants of Alpha Flight rescue them! :D

You know, they are on the run, reps from Canada show up in Washnigton to get mad at the locals for how Civil War is hurting innocent Canadians, then bam, a fight spills over to them, they join in and rescue the ones losing after US Agent and Arachne (and others) beg them for help. OR they're prisoners in chains and AF is asked to rescue them from the indignity. After all, you know Talisman could breach the File 42 prison in the Negative Zone :D

I'm pretty sure I've got it now.... :shock:
As Mokole Said (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=83522). Mokole, I take it the drugs aren't working anymore :wink: :lol:

[Ben]

The glass is half full 8)

Read into that what you will.

Ben

[Guardian]

Oh I know it won't be AF. I'm just tired of hearing everyone talk like the characters and the team's premise were the reason the original title kept failing. It wasn't. It was an utter lack of ability and creativity on the part of the various writers and a lack of commitment from Marvel.

If there was a failure when it came to AF the company shouldn't blame their product.

You are SO right, Legerd.

Dana

Preach on! Ya'll are 100% correct.

[Guardian]

Dana:

Thanks for your suggestions and while I do appreciate the sentiment, the goal for us is to create a successful title. While Alpha Flight does have it's following, in the past it hasn't been a big enough following to keep the book afloat for a sustained period of time. Our goal is to hopefully refresh the concept and have it appeal to the old fans and hopefully enough new that we can continue publishing it for years to come. Will this work, I don't know, there are no guarantees in the entertainment biz, but we're going to be giving it our best shot. Hopefully you'll give the new title a shot and hopefully we can deliver the goods.

Be well,
JQ

Like I said...Hogwashery.

Dana
Care to elaborate, cos I don't see hogwashery, just a well reasoned response.

Ten years isn't a sustained period of time? Giving it their best shot (is it really their best shot...One would think, actually giving the real AF/well-written and illustrated a try would be giving it their "best shot")? I don't see how this would be "delivering the goods" at all...It isn't Alpha Flight, but they're certainly trying to pass it off as a acceptable substitute (in their opinion). "Refreshing the concept" would be dusting off the old and reviving what made them special and sellable, not replacing the concept almost entirely (a team of characters with no connections to the old, save for one member...A new title (associated with the enemies of said original concept team)...A cast of non-Canadian heroes on a Canada-based team).

It's ill-disquised "peacetalk".

Dana

=D>

[PWalk]

The more I read about Omega the more I get excited. I like change personally, hell I'm one of the few that actually liked vol. 3. 8)

I will be buying this new book.

[Guardian]

I'm gonna leave it here Dana, a comic book is not worth falling out over. I'll remain optimistic and you can remain pessemistic. When the time comes and if your proved right, then you can give me all the told you so's you want. If I'm right, I'll just read the book and be glad that Alpha or some semblence of Alpha is getting the respect they deserve.

As regard the Beta thing, your mind is already half made up about a premise that doesn't even exist.

I'm not trying to fight with you, Del (and just because I disagree with you, it doesn't mean I am pessimistic about AF...Not in the least)...I'm merely expressing my opinions/disappointment and frustration at the news of no Alpha Flight and this sad place-filler....Please don't take any of it personally.

I still don't see any respect for AF or it's fans in this book...Alpha Flight is dead...It doesn't get any more disrespectful than that IMHO. This bull-oney that killing the team gives them new life is just that...Bull. Sure, AF fans and others are talking about the group's being owned...But yet again, AF was shown to be weak, a joke and not worth caring about (on Marvel's part). We disagree on a lot of it and that's okay.

I was mostly joking about the Beta concept, if you couldn't tell.

Dana :wink:

Your absolutely right. I hadn't really thought about Alpha Flight for years. (I just recently got back into comics about a year ago.) When I bought New Avengers #16 (I had been reading the title since issue #1) and the Collective was in Canada and AF showed up. I was stoked. Even though, I had no idea of who a few of the AF members were, I was shocked, pissed and very angry when the villian just blew right through AF and destroyed them. I thought that Bendis was a big pile of (fill in your word hear).
Now I kinda intrigued and worried about this new series all together and I'll give it a chance when it's released. But it'll be hangin' by a very thin thread.

[Legerd]

The glass is half full 8)

Read into that what you will.

Ben

Ah, it's not whether the cup is half empty or half full. It's what the cup is filled with. :lol:

[Guardian]

The glass is half full 8)

Read into that what you will.

Ben

Ah, it's not whether the cup is half empty or half full. It's what the cup is filled with. :lol:

:D Hopefully some kind of adult-oriented beverage. :twisted:

[DelBubs]

Taste
The most important quality of a wine is its balance between sweetness and acidity. To get the full taste of a wine follow the following three steps:

1. Initial taste (or first impression): This is where the wine awakens your senses (your taste buds respond to sensations).
2. Taste: Slosh the wine around and draw in some air (even if you do look funny in front of your dinner guests). Examine the body and texture of the wine. Is it light or rich? Smooth or harsh?
3. Aftertaste: The taste that remains in your mouth after you have swallowed the wine. How long did the taste last? Was it pleasant?

If pleasant one would buy the bottle, but no decision should be made until after the initial tasting.

[Canucklehead]

The glass is half full 8)

Read into that what you will.

Ben

Ah, it's not whether the cup is half empty or half full. It's what the cup is filled with. :lol:

Molson hopefully! 100% Canadi.... wait, they're half American now. Oh well, we still have our Alpha Flight book which is 100% Canadi... ahh s***.

:wink:

[DelBubs]

The glass is half full 8)

Read into that what you will.

Ben

Ah, it's not whether the cup is half empty or half full. It's what the cup is filled with. :lol:

Taken from http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=1390&start=0



It would be kinda ironic if Marcel created a new "Alpha Flight" comic with a different name, but felt more like AF than volume 3.

Man, anything would be more like AF than Vol. 3! (IMHO) :lol:


See a trend? The only suitable choices would be characters of a type not already represented, like Spidey or Wolverine...

Although a lot of AF fans would disagree with me, I would like to see Wolverine join the team for a lttle while. Just long enough to get non-AF fans reading the book. The same goes for any other hero who is shipped in to join the team. Get them in, attract new fans, move the heroes on. With some luck (and good writing) there will be some new AF fans after Civil War events have faded.

Exhausted after a long day I decided to let you answer your own question :-)

[Legerd]

I asked a question? :?

Note I said:

"...I would like to see Wolverine join the team for a lttle while. Just long enough to get non-AF fans reading the book. The same goes for any other hero who is shipped in to join the team. Get them in, attract new fans, move the heroes on."

The important part to what I posted is the new heroes would join the team not replace the team. But you can relax DB the cup comment I made was only meant as a joke, not a shot at the OF book. :)

[DelBubs]

I know Legerd, hence the bit about Wine Tasting. I actually stumbled across that quote by yourself by accident. That thread is interesting though given the amount of people who thought along those lines.

[RolandT]

You guys sure seem to like liquor references.

I bet Mokole has something with his Civil War post, about how AF fits in. Cool.

If File 42 is a prison thing, sure why not, that may be where AF shows up, or helping, or fighting, or showing up in New York and sticking their tongues out at Iron Man. Because they are then anti-sra, people look to them for help. Why not?

And Ben knows more than the rest of you? What would that be? Too secret information!

[Powersurge]

Since talk of a new AF (or whatever) title began, I thought that Wolvie would make a good addition for a few reasons. Onem he was originally intended to lead the team to begin with. Two, he's happy enough working for the American governemt, so why not the Canadian. It's certainly no worse, no better. Three, he's very popular.

As for Omega Flight and it's motely line-up, I think that the idea was to break "the glass" completely, reestablish the credibility of Marvel Canada unhindered by preconceived notions of the good or bad runs, and then maybe perhaps begin to gradually reintroduce something more classic.

It is of course an absurd suggestion that the premise or make-up of the original Byrne/Claremont Alpha Flight, as they appeared in the UXM was flawed. They didn't spin their own title out of a handful of appearances in UXM cause fans thought they sucked.

And it was precisely a succesive string of bad writers with all kinds of convoluted ideas that destroyed the title until it became the joke embodied in vol.3.

But what has been written has been written. And whether or not Marvell wants to enforce continuity, all the crap is still in the minds of fans. So break the fricking glass, by all means.

I've heard that Oeming is a great writer, so I look forward to seeing where he takes us. No it's not Alpha Flight. And as a fan of the classic idea of AF, all I can say at this point is, thank ye gods!!

Hopefully the switch of the name from Alpha to Omega isn't an allusion to what is planned for MU Canada if this title flops.

[Guardian]

Great points there. But I would hate to see Wolverine in this new title. I know he was "supposed" to originaly lead the team but, he's in every other frickin' title in the Marvel line-up. And I quite frankly am sick and tired of him. I tolerate him in New Avengers only because of Spider-Woman and Captain America.

I really, really hate Bendis by the way. :evil:

[Canucklehead]

What do you guys think of these? Anyone stand out to you?

http://geocities.com/davidchenard99/omegalogosnew.gif

[DelBubs]

I'm quite taken with the fifth one (bottom right). That fractured Maple Leaf design immediately caught my eye.

Guardian. Apart from killing off the classic Alpha Flight off panel, what exactly has Mr Bendis done to you, to deserve your disdain :?: :? :)

[Canucklehead]

Thanks, that's my favorite too (that's why it's the biggest :wink: )

Here's some more title banners:

http://geocities.com/davidchenard99/omegalogosnew2.gif

[bigbloo]

Ahhhh... tempted out of lurkdom by the smell of a new series. :)

Hiya everyone! Im cautiously optimistic about Omega Flight. Am pretty sure that we have a good idea of who the members are. Im just hoping its not Wolvie in the Guardian suit. :D

Canucklehead! Fantastic logo work! My favorite is still the first omega in the maple leaf, though the simpler version also looks cool.

[Le Messor]

Canucklehead: first pic; top right. I like the white / red combo.

The second pic: last logo.

- le Messor
"An act of courage is not done by someone who is fearless, but by someone who is filled with fear and does it anyway."

[Le Messor]

My "This looks like a cool book with ties to a concept I enjoy" sense has gone off. I think Omega Flight will be good, and fun.

My Alpha Flight sense isn't tingling.
Some of you know that having both those words on a cover once a month is nowhere near enough to make Alpha Flight to me. One doesn't even come close.

I'm going to keep this one in 'Marvel Misc' until it's big enough to move out on its own.

So...

Marvel do a few things, make a couple of character choices, that imply a new Alpha Flight series is in the works.
Rumours start to fly.

They grow. We hear about characters not being usable because somebody wants them later. More rumours.

We question Marvel; loose talk and innuendo.

Then, finally, announcement! We hear about a new series that is definitely in the works!

The writer talks to one or all of us. He tells us that he's a fan of the old series, really respects Alpha Flight, especially the Byrne years.
We decide we respect his courage in talking directly to us, the fans. We don't want to scare him off.
So we try, some of us, to beoptimistic in front of him.

Then we see the first image; speculation and more rumours. Who are these people? What characters are we seeing? Some of them are clearly Alphans...
But then we find out that even some of the Alphans aren't Alphans; just characters based on them.

But the arguments start. "That's not Alpha!"
"It says Alpha Flight."
"I want more than those words."
"This is the only way we'll get Alpha Flight; you have to show loyalty to the book."
"This isn't the book. This is not what I signed on for."
"What if X-Men readers had said that about Gt Sized #1?"
"What if? They still got a team of strangers. Is it supposed to make them feel better that this alien title that has nothing to do with their comic was good for a while, and is still insanely successful? How does that help if it's not their book?"
"Just give it a chance, is all I ask. We want Alpha Flight, don't we?"
"Yes. But that picture is not a picture of Alpha Flight."
etc...

Am I the only one who 'Wow, this is familiar'?

- Le Messor
"Right now, I have déjÃ* vu and amnesia at the same time."
- Steve Wright

[Canucklehead]

OK, last annoying thing I'll post, honest lol

http://geocities.com/davidchenard99/omegaflightcover.jpg

[DelBubs]

Canucklehead, I know sod all about graphical fingemies, but as much as I love that mock up, I think it would have a bigger impact if the Flight part was a little jazzier. Just a suggestion :-)

BTW, nothing annoying about those graphics whatsoever.

[Canucklehead]

Canucklehead, I know sod all about graphical fingemies, but as much as I love that mock up, I think it would have a bigger impact if the Flight part was a little jazzier. Just a suggestion :-)

BTW, nothing annoying about those graphics whatsoever.

Hey thanks for the suggestion, much appreciated. I had tried a bolder "Flight", but it kind of became a block and my eyes didn't know where to look. I'm partially dislexic so everything I design needs to have a big contrast lol. I will take your suggestion and try to make the Flight jazzier or sexier.

OK, just making sure. I hate posting multiple things not knowing if people are saying "God, not another one! We don't care about your stupid pictures!" lol

[Barnacle13]

Oh I know it won't be AF. I'm just tired of hearing everyone talk like the characters and the team's premise were the reason the original title kept failing. It wasn't. It was an utter lack of ability and creativity on the part of the various writers and a lack of commitment from Marvel.

If there was a failure when it came to AF the company shouldn't blame their product.

I have to agree and disagree with this. Even the great John Byrne has said he sent this team on the road to doom. It was never intended to be an ongoing series, and the first death of Guardian pretty much laid the groundwork for the eventual failure of the book. So, even the writer we all profess to be the best Alpha has ever had is responsible in some way for their demise.

I say give Oeming Flight a try and see what comes of it. It could be really cool down the road to see the orginals come in as a rival outfit, with Mac ripping the suit off of the imposter Guardian for a major reveal.

[Canucklehead]

Here's some retro titles: :P

http://geocities.com/davidchenard99/omegalogosnew3.gif

[syvalois]

Here's some retro titles: :P

http://geocities.com/davidchenard99/omegalogosnew3.gif


Yes, that's better, the first one, I mean. As for the Beer, I don't like Molson, I'm a Unibroue fan (Now your talking about beer that taste something!) and I don't mind Sleeman.

[Tiberius Bane]

After pondering Omega Flight during the weekend, my opinion on the new series has changed. I'M FREAKING STOKED!

Guardian is back. Sweet!
Elizabeth is on the team. Great!
(Sure it may not be Mac or Elizabeth, but Im being optimistic)

As long as they don't do something silly like put an American in the Guardian suit I think Im going to love this new series.

Im putting my faith in the creative team.

As much as Marvel pisses me off sometimes, I dig some of their other recent moves.

Iron Fist getting his own series again. Moon Knights ongoing. Heroes For Hire. Omega Flight. Now if only Darkhawk can get his own series back. ;)

MikeM

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I went on Saturday, missed the panel with Joe Quesada and Marvel's upcoming plans :( , talked briefly with Michael Golden, picked up two more AFV1 back issues for a dollar each, and tried to get Keith Pollard to look at my work, but he was busy drawing commission sketches. I talked with some of the independent/self-published creators, who looked at my stuff and offered some helpful suggestions, just like...

...Mike Oeming, who I got to talk to. My biggest concern was finding out if "Mailman Mike" from NA#16 was going to be on this new team. I was told he would not be on the team, that the new series would pay homage to the old AF, and that more characters (not pictured) from the old series would be included. Mr. Oeming, who was sketching at the time, even took a few moments to look at my work and assess it. He told me that I should work on tightening my pencil-work for a better foundation, and I'll do that.

All the other questions I could've and should've asked him didn't come to me until I was on my way home. Personally, I'd feel a little bit better about the upcoming OMEGA FLIGHT series if the shadowed figures didn't remind me of volume 3's shadowed characters. However, if new fans can be introduced to the Alpha Flight universe this way, and old fans can get a decent treatment of the old characters, I think Marvel will be on the right track.

I just hope they don't make the mistake of thinking that OF is going to automatically be a cash-cow, because there is still a sense of wait-and-see wariness hovering over this series.

[Legerd]

Oh I know it won't be AF. I'm just tired of hearing everyone talk like the characters and the team's premise were the reason the original title kept failing. It wasn't. It was an utter lack of ability and creativity on the part of the various writers and a lack of commitment from Marvel.

If there was a failure when it came to AF the company shouldn't blame their product.

I have to agree and disagree with this. Even the great John Byrne has said he sent this team on the road to doom. It was never intended to be an ongoing series, and the first death of Guardian pretty much laid the groundwork for the eventual failure of the book. So, even the writer we all profess to be the best Alpha has ever had is responsible in some way for their demise.

I say give Oeming Flight a try and see what comes of it. It could be really cool down the road to see the orginals come in as a rival outfit, with Mac ripping the suit off of the imposter Guardian for a major reveal.

That's absolutely true B13 about JB's AF. He did set them up to be temporary, but they weren't. And it doesn't matter what his intentions were, if the fans wanted the book then Marvel should have put a creative team on it that would do it justice. Instead we got year after year of mediocre stories and art with the team running in circles never growing or developing. Then, when there was finally some decent work being done, the book is cancelled.

As for OF, I hope it does well. I just don't want to be disappointed again by alot of cryptic promises and half-revealed inticements about an AF-esque series. Of course...




...Mike Oeming, who I got to talk to. My biggest concern was finding out if "Mailman Mike" from NA#16 was going to be on this new team. I was told he would not be on the team, that the new series would pay homage to the old AF, and that more characters (not pictured) from the old series would be included. Mr. Oeming, who was sketching at the time, even took a few moments to look at my work and assess it. He told me that I should work on tightening my pencil-work for a better foundation, and I'll do that.



...This gives me hope. :)

[cmdrkoenig67]

Hopefully the switch of the name from Alpha to Omega isn't an allusion to what is planned for MU Canada if this title flops.

Mr. Oeming said that was the case in one of the Newsarama interviews...This is Alpha Flight's last stand.

I won't comment further on that, because I'm trying very hard to control my anger.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Oh I know it won't be AF. I'm just tired of hearing everyone talk like the characters and the team's premise were the reason the original title kept failing. It wasn't. It was an utter lack of ability and creativity on the part of the various writers and a lack of commitment from Marvel.

If there was a failure when it came to AF the company shouldn't blame their product.

I have to agree and disagree with this. Even the great John Byrne has said he sent this team on the road to doom. It was never intended to be an ongoing series, and the first death of Guardian pretty much laid the groundwork for the eventual failure of the book. So, even the writer we all profess to be the best Alpha has ever had is responsible in some way for their demise.

I say give Oeming Flight a try and see what comes of it. It could be really cool down the road to see the orginals come in as a rival outfit, with Mac ripping the suit off of the imposter Guardian for a major reveal.

That's absolutely true B13 about JB's AF. He did set them up to be temporary, but they weren't. And it doesn't matter what his intentions were, if the fans wanted the book then Marvel should have put a creative team on it that would do it justice. Instead we got year after year of mediocre stories and art with the team running in circles never growing or developing. Then, when there was finally some decent work being done, the book is cancelled.

I agree, Legerd...John Byrne has also said that he tried pitching a Northstar and Aurora series (I don't recall if it was to be a mini or an ongoing), but Jim Shooter (EIC at the time) rejected it. He has said he enjoyed writing Heather Hudson too...

Sure, Alpha Flight were meant to be one-note heroes, but they grew far beyond that.

I also agree about the lack of commitment on Marvel's part and the bad writing/art being responsible for Alpha's downfall. It's not AF's fault that their series(all of them) failed...The concept itself, is not to blame.

Dana

[Northcott]

I won't comment further on that, because I'm trying very hard to control my anger.

In the name of God, why? No animals were harmed in the production of this comic (probably). No typhoons hit. No bodies were secretly laid in the concrete of a building's foundation (that I know of).

The birds sing, the wind blows, the sky is still above and the earth below. All is good in the real world.

So some fictional characters get the shaft. And? Yes, it sucks. It's no fun for the fans, and it's remarkably bad decision-making from the editorial staff at Marvel for volumes 2 & 3. (I've got much higher expectations for Omega, given the rep of the creative team.)

Yes, this is Alpha's last chance. Absolutely. For now. Kind of. Let's face it, "reality" changes as often as the people in charge. Quesada won't be in charge forever, editorial staff change, and sooner or later, one way or another, old properties get revived. Alpha did very well at one point. This is, in itself, proof that the concept is not unsellable. Those who claim that it is are merely trying to cover up their failure with excuses.

Sooner or later it will be done right. Someone will have an idea, it'll stick, and things will fly. In the meantime, there are more productive things to get worked up about.

[DelBubs]

All positive concepts are viable if presented properly. So I think it's a well established and agreed upon fact that it is not Alpha Flight the concept that is the problem!

One of the things I am having trouble with is this anger. Three weeks back we had nothing, now we have a new series that although not Alpha, will have characters from Alpha being portrayed and most probably playing a big part. We've established that Alpha as it stands at the moment is so damaged that it wouldn't work without some external propping up. That again is still not good enough, we want our Alpha and we want it now.

Marvel wouldn't countenence a new Alpha, so Mike Oeming offers us the next best thing, still not good enough. Mike Oeming studies up on Alpha by visiting here, Kollins has said that he is a fan of Alpha Flight and has been waiting years to do this, still not good enough.

http://www.goenglish.com/GoEnglish_com_1DontLookAGiftHorseInTheMouth.gif

[cmdrkoenig67]

I won't comment further on that, because I'm trying very hard to control my anger.

In the name of God, why? No animals were harmed in the production of this comic (probably). No typhoons hit. No bodies were secretly laid in the concrete of a building's foundation (that I know of).

The birds sing, the wind blows, the sky is still above and the earth below. All is good in the real world.

So some fictional characters get the shaft. And? Yes, it sucks. It's no fun for the fans, and it's remarkably bad decision-making from the editorial staff at Marvel for volumes 2 & 3. (I've got much higher expectations for Omega, given the rep of the creative team.)

Yes, this is Alpha's last chance. Absolutely. For now. Kind of. Let's face it, "reality" changes as often as the people in charge. Quesada won't be in charge forever, editorial staff change, and sooner or later, one way or another, old properties get revived. Alpha did very well at one point. This is, in itself, proof that the concept is not unsellable. Those who claim that it is are merely trying to cover up their failure with excuses.

Sooner or later it will be done right. Someone will have an idea, it'll stick, and things will fly. In the meantime, there are more productive things to get worked up about.

Ed...I have every right to be angry about the current state of Alpha Flight (and duh...We all know they're fictional)...Don't presume to tell me how I should feel. I happen to like the characters of the original Alpha Flight..So sue me, if I get peeved that they've been "killed off, shoved into limbo, ignored, written to look like jokes, etc...

I have no problem interpreting the differences between reality and fiction, contrary to what your implying or what you may believe. you can keep the subtle insults about my mental state to yourself.

Yes...I know Alpha Flight may come back (at some point...maybe when Joke Quesada is no longer EIC), but that's no gaurantee their return will be any better than Vols 2 or 3.

BTW...All is not good in the real world (not that I usually let it get me down)...Where have you been?

Dana :P

[RolandT]

OK. Canucklehead, great job!

I like in the 5 pic one the one on bottom left, great shoulder patch!

Of the title ones I like the one DelBubs is using on his sig the most, But of your other three, the middle one with a fatter black Flight is the best.

They should talk to you about using your logos in the series! I am getting more excited just seeing your work, hope Marvel can do as good.

[cmdrkoenig67]

All positive concepts are viable if presented properly. So I think it's a well established and agreed upon fact that it is not Alpha Flight the concept that is the problem!

One of the things I am having trouble with is this anger. Three weeks back we had nothing, now we have a new series that although not Alpha, will have characters from Alpha being portrayed and most probably playing a big part. We've established that Alpha as it stands at the moment is so damaged that it wouldn't work without some external propping up.

In your opinion (and apparently Joke Quesada's)...Not mine.


That again is still not good enough, we want our Alpha and we want it now.

Damn straight.


Marvel wouldn't countenence a new Alpha, so Mike Oeming offers us the next best thing, still not good enough. Mike Oeming studies up on Alpha by visiting here, Kollins has said that he is a fan of Alpha Flight and has been waiting years to do this, still not good enough.

Mike O may be doing research on Alpha here...That's fine, but is that supposed to appeal to me, when the bulk of the characters he's writing about are of no interest to me?

Mr. Oeming may also be offering the next best thing...but if it's not what I want to read(with mostly characters I don't want to read about)...then no..Of course, It isn't good enough (how much clearer can I be on that?).

Dana

[DelBubs]

Okay Dana, I believe you've made your point. Every body is perfectly aware of where you stand on this issue. Can I suggest that maybe you should step away from this issue now, as it is obviously causing you some distress, otherwise you wouldn't have taken Eds off the cuff remarks so much to heart.

This thread is to discuss the new OMEGA FLIGHT comic by Oeming and Kolins. Your views on it are widely known. I can't see what else you can offer this thead, as you have obviously made up your mind about it already.

[Canucklehead]

OK. Canucklehead, great job!

I like in the 5 pic one the one on bottom left, great shoulder patch!

Of the title ones I like the one DelBubs is using on his sig the most, But of your other three, the middle one with a fatter black Flight is the best.

They should talk to you about using your logos in the series! I am getting more excited just seeing your work, hope Marvel can do as good.

Thank you for the kind words Roland! I'm creating these many logos because the last one for V3, to me, was such an eye-sore. I want to make the perfect one most people like then send it to Marvel and see what happens. I'll keep workin on 'em. 8)

[Barnacle13]

I think everyone on this list is at best cautiously optimistic, and at worst unhappy that they aren't getting a true Alpha Flight. I agree with Del, Alpha Flight the concept is not the problem. If they were, then they'd have appeared in Uncanny X-Men all those years ago and disappeared. This forum wouldn't be up and operational, and folks wouldn't be elated or pissed by the news of Oeming Flight.

As someone who tries to fill in every hole in my Alpha Flight collection, including cameos as small as the Aurora cover in Ms.Marvel, I'll be buying. Consider it a cameo if you must, but it will include at least some of the characters I've grown to love over the years. I can't see folks hanging around for Beta Ray Bill, USAgent, or Arachne for an extended period of time. I could be wrong about that though. I'm a little interested in the Arachne/Spider-Woman character, but the other two not so much. However, I will give Oeming and Kollins a chance to change my perspective on these characters. Talisman I couldn't be happeir to read more about and Guardian (regardless of who is in the suit) could lead to some good stories also. I know everyone wants Mac to be Guardian, but it would open some interesting stories up if he weren't. Especially if Mac, Heather, Sas, and Puck survived and come back to reclaim their identities.

Oeming has said there are older Alphans waiting to be reintroduced. Until he gives me a reason to disbelieve I will take his word for it. Marvel has to know that Guardian, Sasquatch, and Puck are fan favorites. I can't see them burying them for long. It may take a few issues to start seeing these folks, but I believe they will eventually be back. V2 was headed in that direction before the plug was pulled. They just didn't get there quick enough. I think V3 failed because the first thing they did was jettison the originals. Well that and crappy storytelling.

Color me cautiously optimistic. I'm exited to have at least some Alphans to read about again and will give Oeming Flight a chance to stand on its own before throwing stones and shooting it down. If there's any chance of seeing Alpha Flight any time soon, I think Omega has to be a success. I'm willing to support that endeavor.

As I mentioned earlier.. if you're still reading Mike. Make sure Marvel gives you the marketing you require. Make sure subscription service is available and advertised. Don't let Marvel leave you and, in the balance, us out to dry. This was once a hot property and if treated properly it can be again.

Tom

[Barnacle13]

OK. Canucklehead, great job!

I like in the 5 pic one the one on bottom left, great shoulder patch!

Of the title ones I like the one DelBubs is using on his sig the most, But of your other three, the middle one with a fatter black Flight is the best.

They should talk to you about using your logos in the series! I am getting more excited just seeing your work, hope Marvel can do as good.

Thank you for the kind words Roland! I'm creating these many logos because the last one for V3, to me, was such an eye-sore. I want to make the perfect one most people like then send it to Marvel and see what happens. I'll keep workin on 'em. 8)

Just a thought, but to pay homage it'd be great if somehow an alpha were hidden in the image. May be asking for too much, but it would be cool!

[Tawmis]

Should we be excited? - Well in the sense that it's not really Alpha Flight, probably not. Then again what has been 'really Alpha Flight' since #28 vol 1.


A-friggin-men on that. Though I collected ALPHA FLIGHT all the way through volume 1, even Vol 2 (which started good, and went down hill quickly), and managed Vol 3 as well... I agree. The real Alpha Flight ceased to be around issue #28 of volume 1. (Some would even say after issue #12...)



When it was first built, it was a beautiful thing


Which is funny in a way - as he never, apparently, wanted to write an ALPHA FLIGHT series; and the characters were basically cardboard cut outs to take on the X-Men (in UXM #120-121).



I'm willing to give it a go, you can normally gauge what's going too happen within the first few issues. It may not be Alpha Flight, but it's the nearest we're gonna get.


Ditto.



So says Marvel...again and again (I just emailed Joe Quesada and he responded with more hogwash, just like at the time of Vol 3)...But hello! Give the freakin' original Alpha Flight a try (which Marvel hasn't since vol. 1)....MAYBE it will work...These boneheads(meaning Marvel) shouldn't keep saying it doesn't work until it's been actually tried.....GAAAAH! :x


Now if ALPHA FLIGHT had ended with issue #12 (or #28) of volume one, I don't think asking for the original flight to come back would be that big of a deal. But go back and re-read ALL of the issues. Don't go off of memory - actually go back and read the issues. Writers DESTROYED Alpha Flight with VERY bad writing as the series went on in Vol 1. So many things done TO the characters, that essentially ruined them.

Vindicator (Mac) - Dead. Back. Dead. Back. Dead. Back. Clone. Dead. Back.

Guardian (Heather) - Alive. Loves Mac. Mac dies. Oh, love Jeffry Madison. Oh, kill Snowbird. Oh! Mac's back!

Sasquatch - Alive. Dead. Take over Snowbird. I'm a woman. I'm a man.

Snowbird - I'm alive. I'm dead. Sas has my body. Look, I'm cloned!

Puck - I'm short. Oh, no, there's some evil spirit living in me.

Northstar - I'm alive. I'm dead. I'm alive. I'm an elf. No, it's a lie. I am human.

Aurora - I'm alive. I suffer from MPD. No, wait, Schizophranic now. No. Now my abilities are all changed. I'm okay. No. I'm not.

Shaman - I'm alive. Whoops, sorry daughter. Now I'm Talisman. Now I'm all messed in the head. No, back to Shaman now.

Well... it goes on and on and on. But as you can see, the core of ALPHA FLIGHT has been SEVERELY damaged.

And it gets no better. Vol 2 brought in a mess of inconsistencies (clones and what not), and Vol 3, Oh, we're in space - alive and well - um, we think...

Alpha Flight is VERY damaged goods... as much as I hate to admit it.

So I can see why they'd stray away from using the core Flight. However, in time, if there's a series - say, like OMEGA FLIGHT - where core Alpha members could appear - and with any luck, and some solid writing - get those characters "fixed"... who knows what may happen down the line. We have like 5 different X-Men titles... we have 2 (or more) Avengers related titles... if Omega Flight sees some success... we may see some more Flight related stuff.



Sure, I want to see Talisman and Guardian again...But I want to see them fighting along-side Shaman, Snowbird, Sasquatch, Vindicator, Puck, Northstar and Aurora...Not a bunch of Force Works cast-offs in an Avengers-Wannabee team.


I can't help but wonder just before UNCANNY X-MEN #94 and GIANT SIZE X-MEN #1 came out if people were screaming the same thing...


Oh I know it won't be AF. I'm just tired of hearing everyone talk like the characters and the team's premise were the reason the original title kept failing. It wasn't. It was an utter lack of ability and creativity on the part of the various writers and a lack of commitment from Marvel.

If there was a failure when it came to AF the company shouldn't blame their product.

I wouldn't blame Marvel. I'd blame the writers. Alpha Flight, all things considered, got a pretty good push. They had little ads in Marvel, they were also used for the "Monthly Subscription" image where Sas is holding them up... more treatment that the New Warriors, for example, ever got.

However, ALPHA FLIGHT was plagued with bad writers between Bryne's departure and then Lobell's introduction (who I think did a fair job with Alpha Flight, considering the damaged goods they were by the time they were handed over to him).



Ditto! they don't learn from their mistakes and they don't listen. They'll sell hundreds (maybe thousands/millions) of Toybiz John Byrne Alpha Flight action figures, Marvel Legends Sasquatch figures and Alpha Flight Heroclix/Beanz/etc...But they won't give the original team line-up a chance at their own series? What a bunch of dimbulbs


For the ALPHA FLIGHT series figures (not the Marvel Legends) - I am going to have to disagree on their "success" factor. Shortly after going on sale, I found them available - by the BUNDLES - in a bargain bin at Toys R Us for like 4 dollars a piece, down from their 7.99 they were originally fetching just a few months before.



As it has been said...This is not Alpha Flight, Del...I am an Alpha Flight fan...I don't want a bunch of stand ins (again)...Period.


Well, here's the thing - you got ONE thing right so far. This is NOT Alpha Flight, nor is it pretending to be Alpha Flight. Sure it may have some Alpha Flight "roots" - but look at the title - it's called OMEGA Flight not ALPHA Flight.

If you throw Hawkeye on the Thunderbolts - does that completely change the Thunderbolts team to a "cheap Avengers" team? Not at all. The Thunderbolts have a unique motif, despite a BUNCH of ties to the Avengers. Just because you have Mac, and someone else who appears to be tied to Alpha Flight (the Talisman one) - does not mean it IS Alpha Flight... because, well, it's not. It's OMEGA Flight.



...And why not slap some plaster on the old?....Do you bulldoze an old house just because it needs a bit of work and patching up? No. Should Marvel kill off every Avenger that doesn't always work well on the team? No...They usually just rework them a bit and sometimes they are a success later.


In terms of plastering an old house vs bulldozing an old house... as a newly formed home owner (well it's been a year now) - all things considered to "plaster" the old house and patch it up does not even COMPARE to tearing it down and building a new house. A plastered up house would NEVER fetch anywhere as much as a newly bulldozed and reconstructed house. Trust me.



This is fiction we're talking about here, Del...People get entirely too hung up on continuity (Myself included sometimes)....Everything can be mended and turn out just fine. Those cracks to which you are referring will only appear because of who is writing the book. Get a good writer and those cracks will never been seen again.


One has to keep in mind - this is a business. If the first issue (or first couple issues) is all about "repairing" ALPHA FLIGHT, any potential new readers are going to drop the book in a heart beat as there's going to be constant foot notes of "See Alpha Flight v1 #37 for more", "See Alpha Flight v1 #121 for more", "See Alpha Flight v2 #5 for more", "See Alpha Flight v1 #58 for more", "See Uncanny X-Men #109 for more", "See Alpha Flight v3 #5 for more"... That's just going to be WAY too much.

HOWEVER, if you take a "new concept" - so it's inviting to new readers, and hopefully if old readers are patient (and demand it enough) - we just might see some "fixing" of the old done over time.

Starting off "fixing" Alpha Flight is a poor way to handle a new series - considering the EXTENSIVE damage done to ALPHA FLIGHT over the years.




Are you reading the same previews as me? I could swear it's called OMEGA FLIGHT... not "ALPHA FLIGHT" like you keep saying?!



Dana:

Thanks for your suggestions and while I do appreciate the sentiment, the goal for us is to create a successful title. While Alpha Flight does have it's following, in the past it hasn't been a big enough following to keep the book afloat for a sustained period of time. Our goal is to hopefully refresh the concept and have it appeal to the old fans and hopefully enough new that we can continue publishing it for years to come. Will this work, I don't know, there are no guarantees in the entertainment biz, but we're going to be giving it our best shot. Hopefully you'll give the new title a shot and hopefully we can deliver the goods.

Be well,
JQ

Like I said...Hogwashery.

Dana

While I am not a fan of JQ, for the most part... that email states the very truth. Alpha Flight has flopped several times. But these are writers who came up with a concept they enjoyed - and the Alpha Flight fans did not enjoy it. It's not like Marvel comes up with the concept and hands it to a writer. Writers are coming up with them and handing them to Marvel. It flopped because fans didn't like it. So what's to do? Try something with a different twist...



Nah...writers needn't get too hung up on continuity...It spoils the fun of further adventures. IMHO...It would not take a year to clear up the mess that was left of Alpha...Well...maybe if the current "written for trade" crap applies. I truly believe it could be done in a single first issue (double-sized).


You know Del called you pestimestic... and I would have to agree... but the above... man, that's the MOST Optimistic thing I have EVER heard of...

Okay - so do me a favor - cliff note version - how would YOU "clean up" Alpha Flight within 32 pages?


Me, I see Af like a classic, you just can write again Watchmen. Who would do Starway to heaven or Apocalypse now? Even Byrme could not write as good now what he did then. The step is too high. The expectation too.


A-friggin-men. Another good example of this is Chris Claremont himself. Look at the amazing work he did with Uncanny X-Men #94 and all the way through - what - #166 or whatever? Some AMAZING writing. Some of the best, for that matter. But look at his "return" to the X-Men with the Neo and what not - a complete and utter flop, and some of the worse of the X-Men stories read in a long time.


OK, last annoying thing I'll post, honest lol

http://geocities.com/davidchenard99/omegaflightcover.jpg

Tell me - how is it you don't have a job with Marvel doing this kind of stuff yet!!?!??!


After pondering Omega Flight during the weekend, my opinion on the new series has changed. I'M FREAKING STOKED!

Guardian is back. Sweet!
Elizabeth is on the team. Great!
(Sure it may not be Mac or Elizabeth, but Im being optimistic)

As long as they don't do something silly like put an American in the Guardian suit I think Im going to love this new series.

Im putting my faith in the creative team.

As much as Marvel pisses me off sometimes, I dig some of their other recent moves.

Iron Fist getting his own series again. Moon Knights ongoing. Heroes For Hire. Omega Flight. Now if only Darkhawk can get his own series back. ;)

MikeM

Well one thing - remember just because they do shove an American in the Guardian suit - doesn't mean that he wouldn't want to be there to defend Canada and know where his roots (for the costume come from)!

As for Darkhawk series... I agree. But he seems busy in RUNAWAYS from my understanding. :) And to pimp - there's talk and fellow Darkhawk fans over on the New Warriors.com forums. (http://www.newwarriors.com) (If you were interested in joining over there!) ;)



I just hope they don't make the mistake of thinking that OF is going to automatically be a cash-cow, because there is still a sense of wait-and-see wariness hovering over this series.

Well the good thing is - there is - as stated - a buzz about this series. That alone should continue and generate interest - and make people curious enough to check out the comic, new and old readers alike. I know that once the New Warriors got mentioned (and since Civil War), my NewWarriors.com site has been slammed with hits.




I won't comment further on that, because I'm trying very hard to control my anger.

In the name of God, why? No animals were harmed in the production of this comic (probably). No typhoons hit. No bodies were secretly laid in the concrete of a building's foundation (that I know of).

The birds sing, the wind blows, the sky is still above and the earth below. All is good in the real world.

So some fictional characters get the shaft. And? Yes, it sucks. It's no fun for the fans, and it's remarkably bad decision-making from the editorial staff at Marvel for volumes 2 & 3. (I've got much higher expectations for Omega, given the rep of the creative team.)

Yes, this is Alpha's last chance. Absolutely. For now. Kind of. Let's face it, "reality" changes as often as the people in charge. Quesada won't be in charge forever, editorial staff change, and sooner or later, one way or another, old properties get revived. Alpha did very well at one point. This is, in itself, proof that the concept is not unsellable. Those who claim that it is are merely trying to cover up their failure with excuses.

Sooner or later it will be done right. Someone will have an idea, it'll stick, and things will fly. In the meantime, there are more productive things to get worked up about.

Couldn't agree more. I run NewWarriors.com (man, how many times am I gonna pimp that in the last three quotes?!?) and had the great fortune of watching a version of the New Warriors get killed - namely, Namorita, perhaps one of my favorite female characters - ever - in any comic. (Fellow New Warriors fans are probably painful familiar with my... slight... infatuation with her!)

Was I upset? Surprisingly, no. Why? Because I know eventually some writer will bring her back (via clone or some other story...) The way I see it, it's fictional characters. My days of being bent out of shape over what they do are long over. I watched Thor "give up" and watched that series end (one of my favorite super heroes, hands down). I watched the Warriors Three all die... I watched Sif die... I watched Valkyrie die... I have watched a lot of character I care about find their way six feet under... but I can't find myself getting upset anymore. Maybe it's because I am older (certainly not wiser)... I don't know. I just can't find myself getting bent about the fate of fictional characters anymore... And it's certainly not because I "don't care" - or else I wouldn't be paying monthly to maintain NewWarriors.com... I wouldn't be running an eGroup for New Warriors... I wouldn't be posting on Alpha Flight's forum... I do care about these characters. But I also realize this is entertainment... writing... it's like when they kill off Flint in Dragonlance - I cried. Sure. But it wasn't the end of the world for me. :) (Ah... Dragonlance... writing doesn't get better than that!) :) So I think that's how I view comics now - as one long (and often, very convoluted novel)...



[quote=Northcott]
I won't comment further on that, because I'm trying very hard to control my anger.

In the name of God, why? No animals were harmed in the production of this comic (probably). No typhoons hit. No bodies were secretly laid in the concrete of a building's foundation (that I know of).

The birds sing, the wind blows, the sky is still above and the earth below. All is good in the real world.

So some fictional characters get the shaft. And? Yes, it sucks. It's no fun for the fans, and it's remarkably bad decision-making from the editorial staff at Marvel for volumes 2 & 3. (I've got much higher expectations for Omega, given the rep of the creative team.)

Yes, this is Alpha's last chance. Absolutely. For now. Kind of. Let's face it, "reality" changes as often as the people in charge. Quesada won't be in charge forever, editorial staff change, and sooner or later, one way or another, old properties get revived. Alpha did very well at one point. This is, in itself, proof that the concept is not unsellable. Those who claim that it is are merely trying to cover up their failure with excuses.

Sooner or later it will be done right. Someone will have an idea, it'll stick, and things will fly. In the meantime, there are more productive things to get worked up about.

Ed...I have every right to be angry about the current state of Alpha Flight (and duh...We all know they're fictional)...Don't presume to tell me how I should feel. I happen to like the characters of the original Alpha Flight..So sue me, if I get peeved that they've been "killed off, shoved into limbo, ignored, written to look like jokes, etc...

I have no problem interpreting the differences between reality and fiction, contrary to what your implying or what you may believe. you can keep the subtle insults about my mental state to yourself.

Yes...I know Alpha Flight may come back (at some point...maybe when Joke Quesada is no longer EIC), but that's no gaurantee their return will be any better than Vols 2 or 3.


I think the issue and the jokes about reality and fictional is coming from your anger about ALPHA FLIGHT and blasting about it in the OMEGA FLIGHT (based) thread... so everyone's associating your "anger" about "This is not Alpha Flight" - and everyone thinking, "Well, we know that - this is Omega Flight."

But all in all - when it all really comes down to it - everyone's gonna do what they wanna do. Whether they pick up the issue or protest it... :)

NOMINATED FOR LONGEST POST - EVER.
This post contains: Sugar, Sodium, Sucralose, and Sarcasm.

[DelBubs]

Lots of Stuff I agree whole heartedly.


I also second the nomination for longest post.
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/1/1_4_139.gif

[cmdrkoenig67]

Okay Dana, I believe you've made your point. Every body is perfectly aware of where you stand on this issue. Can I suggest that maybe you should step away from this issue now, as it is obviously causing you some distress, otherwise you wouldn't have taken Eds off the cuff remarks so much to heart.

This thread is to discuss the new OMEGA FLIGHT comic by Oeming and Kolins. Your views on it are widely known. I can't see what else you can offer this thead, as you have obviously made up your mind about it already.

I don't see Ed's remarks as "off the cuff", they were downright nasty. He implied more than once in his post that I seem to have some issue with separating reality and fiction. The man doesn't know me and has no right to make such assumptions about me.

I guess If you feel I have nothing left to say, then I'll leave...You must know best.

Dana

P.S. The title of the thread is Alpha/Omega, Del...You titled it yourself.

[Northcott]

Ed...I have every right to be angry about the current state of Alpha Flight (and duh...We all know they're fictional)...Don't presume to tell me how I should feel.

If you can find in my post where I expressly told you how to feel, by all means quote it and I'll apologize directly. I lead off with "In the name of God, why?" for a reason. You're confusing question and statement.


I happen to like the characters of the original Alpha Flight..So sue me, if I get peeved that they've been "killed off, shoved into limbo, ignored, written to look like jokes, etc...

I think that sentiment is pretty much unanimous in this forum.


I have no problem interpreting the differences between reality and fiction, contrary to what your implying or what you may believe.

You're crediting me with too great a degree of subtlety. I implied nothing. If I believed you had a tenuous grasp on reality, I'd come out and say it directly. I do believe, however, that you're getting far too worked up over this... which was the point of my prior post. There are far greater things to be concerned about. If the state of Alpha Flight gets you this worked up, I can't even conceive of how taxes, family, mortgage payments, etc, must stress you out.

No, that's not a dig. Quit thinking I'm being subtle.


you can keep the subtle insults about my mental state to yourself.

Again, you credit me with too much subtlety. I do think you're being extremely thin-skinned, reactionary, and barbed in responses. I am large, and I am white. That doesn't make it cool to project all over me.


Yes...I know Alpha Flight may come back (at some point...maybe when Joke Quesada is no longer EIC), but that's no gaurantee their return will be any better than Vols 2 or 3.

An unfortunate truth.


BTW...All is not good in the real world (not that I usually let it get me down)...Where have you been?

In my basement, drawing comics. I finally emerged to play in a softball tournament this weekend, and now I'm lobster-ish in hue.


Dana :P

I had enough trouble getting the pronounciation of "Dana" right. Adding in the "thhppppp!" at the end of the name each time is going to be difficult.

Sorry. Couldn't resist that last. :)

[Tawmis]

Okay Dana, I believe you've made your point. Every body is perfectly aware of where you stand on this issue. Can I suggest that maybe you should step away from this issue now, as it is obviously causing you some distress, otherwise you wouldn't have taken Eds off the cuff remarks so much to heart.
This thread is to discuss the new OMEGA FLIGHT comic by Oeming and Kolins. Your views on it are widely known. I can't see what else you can offer this thead, as you have obviously made up your mind about it already.
I don't see Ed's remarks as "off the cuff", they were downright nasty. He implied more than once in his post that I seem to have some issue with separating reality and fiction. The man doesn't know me and has no right to make such assumptions about me.
I guess If you feel I have nothing left to say, then I'll leave...You must know best.
Dana

Whoa! Reign it in a bit! I don't think anyone's asking you to "leave" - like "Shoo, go away!" I think it's more like - you have made your statement about the disappoint in this series "calling itself a cheap knock off of Alpha Flight" - and you have CLEARLY stated it. I kid you not, when I read your posts - I can almost hear you screaming at me (even if the posts aren't directed at me), because they are pretty clear in their intent and anger.

For example, your response to Del - that just came off very angry and a tad spiteful. All Del is trying to do is what his "job" is here and moderate things and bring back a sense of peace around here. I mean, rather than take what Del said into consideration (basically everyone calming the frick down), you basically said, "Screw you, I am taking my toys and going home!"

I think all anyone is asking - that everyone (myself included, mind you) - who is wrapped about the "debate" of Alpha Flight/Omega Flight - to take a step back and just "discuss" the idea of it - not battle about whether it's Alpha Flight, a knock off of Alpha Flight, or anything else. For that, I think it would be better off making a new thread to state those feelings about what you think Marvel has done to fubar Alpha Flight.

That's just my take.

PMing this to you also, in case you don't check this thread (or forum)....

[DelBubs]

At this point I'm asking for all messages in regards to this to be taken to PM. I am ready to listen to well reasoned discussion on the pro's and cons of Omega Flight, but personal discord shouldn't be aired in public.

Thanks

[Tawmis]

+At this point I'm asking for all messages in regards to this to be taken to PM. I am ready to listen to well reasoned discussion on the pro's and cons of Omega Flight, but personal discord shouldn't be aired in public.

Thanks

Well Del I don't give a damn WHAT you want! That's right! I said it!

Er. Just kidding man... :D

Well like I said before - I am eager to see what comes of OMEGA FLIGHT. Unlike previous writers of ALPHA FLIGHT, Oeming at least seems like he is genuiely interested in what he has in store.

My qualm so far lies in "Beta Ray Bill" - not that he's on the team - but why does he look like... BOX?! (Or is it a BOX version fo Beta Ray Bill?! Egads!) :D But seriously BRB's arms were never the size of cannons... and the metal glove... what's with that!?

I do however REALLY like how everyone else is drawn (though most are shadows, you can still see the artistic styel there). It's only BRB that I really have an issue with how he's being drawn.

[RolandT]

A friend mentioned this after I showed him this site:

" Maybe with Civil War the thing is Thor is stomping guys and who can stop him? Beta Ray Bill could at least get in his way. And Iron Man, who's going to get in his way and give the anti-sra forces a chance to escape? Guardian could stand up to shellhead. If anyone else gets in the way Talisman could easily throw some distractions at them, and thus Beta Ray and Guardian get in the way and Cap's guys run away after a quick thank you. Besides, they could argue they needed to save honest heroes from guys trying to kill them, so SHIELD would just ghhhrrr and walk away mad. "

[Barnacle13]

I'm Ok with the lineup. I must admit I know next to nothing about Beta Ray Bill. I've never been a Thor fan (methinks his speech giveveth me a headache), so I've not really seen much BRB. If Arachne is Julia Carpenter, I read her and USAgent extensively when they were part of Avengers West. I think what I loved about them is that they were completely touchable, unlike the East Coast branch who you couldn't stick a turd to. Yeah USAgent was always a bit of a hothead and loose cannon, but I can deal with that. Spider-Woman had a great back story with being a single parent. That could come into play if we find out Mac or Heather bought the farm in NA#16. She could really support emotionally the survivor of that battle. Talisman I'm stoked to see more of. I always liked Shaman and Talisman. She seemed the stronger of the two both powerwise and emotionally. So, I'm good with her being on the team. Guardina is the real question here. I'd love to see it be Mac, but there are a lot of possibilities for conflict if it isn't him. I'm not sure which side of the fence I'll end up on that question. Could make for some amazing drama. Or consider an issue #12 where Guardian is killed by Vindicator (Mac) for hijacking his dream. I'd also like to see Sasquatch face off against BRB. Imagine Tanaraq taking control of Walter. What a savage contest that would be.

I'm excited about the potential. And like Dana a bit disappointed it isn't Alpha Flight. But logically Alpha Flight might not have flown on its own anyway. After the last treatment I think a lot of comic collectors are staying away from anything Alpha. This has stirred some excitement and that is a good thing. Hopefully it can lead to a more recognizable Alpha Flight in their own series, but if the best I can get is a couple of my favorite characters I'll take it over none of my favorite characters.

Good Luck Mike! I hope this is a huge success!

[RolandT]

Tests Friday, but I'm having a positive attitude and Omega Flight news helps! My classmates wonder where my newfound mental energy is coming from, I'm just deciding not to be a jerk anymore. Omega Flight simply cheered me up when I found out, and now with math and biology tests coming up, I'm full of the right kind of mind to improve my A's into A+, time to study. But Omega Flight is giving me good vibes to share. Who knew?

[Northcott]

Tawmis: I think the thing with Bill's arms is probably just artistic flair. He's always been drawn a bit bulkier/larger than Thor, if I recall correctly, and so some artists draw him Hulk-like in scope. It works in terms of creating visual diversity among the characters.

Barnacle: I agree completely with the idea that the switch from Alpha to Omega is probably a good thing in terms of giving the concept a fair shake in the eyes of comic readers who aren't Alpha Flight fans. I really hope they don't do the "Issue 12 shocker", though. It's now become such a thing for Alpha relaunches that it's like a curse: kill the series with an issue 12 trope.

I hope your notion of the way Alpha might return isn't a premonition. :) An old-fashioned superhero battle is one thing. Actually having Mac kill the current Guardian? Man, that would be a downer beyond words. It would sort of complete the cycle that's occurred with the original Alphans getting stomped on; turned to villains, made insane, brainwashed, made into killing machines, etc.

From the comments Oeming's made, I'm hoping we'll see a very character-driven book. I've always thought Alpha would benefit from that sort of approach given the strength of the personalities involved.

[Ben]

Dana, don't feel like you have to leave, I think it's just that those who are optimistic and looking forward to something positive in the AF realm want to concentrate on the positive. You have just as much right to express your opinion as they do, I just ask that everyone respect each other's opinions, and that every remain open minded if possible.

Ben

[MistressMerr]

The way I see it, is it's just another AF cameo, like the twins in X-Men right now. That said, I really love AI cameos, and as long as I keep looking at it like that and not as the 'Alpha Flight title that wasn't', I'm pretty excited for it. Especially since Talisman's involved, I've been wanting her to put in an appearance forever!

[Guardian]

Guardian. Apart from killing off the classic Alpha Flight off panel, what exactly has Mr Bendis done to you, to deserve your disdain :?: :? :)

Well besides the whole Alpha Flight thing, my problems are:
-In all his work that I've read he takes forever to build up to the finale and then in the end, nothing happens. It falls flat. Examples include HoM and New Avengers.
-He can't write action worth a damn. He can't choregraph it, he just skips it all together sometimes.
- He brings in this rag-tag group of new and exciting heroes to the New Avengers lineup. Heros that have constantly been loners most of the time. (Cage, Spider-Man, attemps Daredevil, Ronin) He brings all these characters together and they do nothing. The Sentry has alot of potential but is barely in a few issues. Ronin came and went in two issues if I remember correctly. Wolverine made only a handful of appearances. And when they do disappear, there is no explanation why.
- He does some stories well, but big events he can't handle. HoM for example. I had to fight myself to read through HoM.

Now these are just my opinions, so take 'em with a grain of salt.

But if all honesty, he does do a few things well. He writes Luke Cage very well. I never cared for the character, but Bendis made me like him. And bringing back the original Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew) was brilliant. And her background story is great. I really like her character now as well.

So I suppose my statement earlier saying that I hate Bendis isn't truly fair. He does some good things and some bad.
I just wish he wouldn't cast aside characters (killing them or otherwise) like he does.

[Guardian]

After pondering Omega Flight during the weekend, my opinion on the new series has changed. I'M FREAKING STOKED!

Guardian is back. Sweet!
Elizabeth is on the team. Great!
(Sure it may not be Mac or Elizabeth, but Im being optimistic)

As long as they don't do something silly like put an American in the Guardian suit I think Im going to love this new series.

Im putting my faith in the creative team.

As much as Marvel pisses me off sometimes, I dig some of their other recent moves.

Iron Fist getting his own series again. Moon Knights ongoing. Heroes For Hire. Omega Flight. Now if only Darkhawk can get his own series back. ;)

MikeM
Yeah hopefully that is Mac and Elizabeth on the team. And I really think that the new creative team cares and will give the old AF much needed dues and respect. I may not be stoked about this news, but I am genuinely (I know I can't spell) excited about this new series. I'll give it some time I think and hopefully I'll be happy with the results.
Just please let it be Mac in the Guardian costume. :) [-o<

Oh, the new Moon Knight rocks by the way.

[Guardian]

...Mike Oeming, who I got to talk to. My biggest concern was finding out if "Mailman Mike" from NA#16 was going to be on this new team. I was told he would not be on the team, that the new series would pay homage to the old AF, and that more characters (not pictured) from the old series would be included. Mr. Oeming, who was sketching at the time, even took a few moments to look at my work and assess it. He told me that I should work on tightening my pencil-work for a better foundation, and I'll do that.

.

This is all great news. Thank God that the psycho mailman isn't in the series. Adding older characters is great. Let the homaging (is this a word?) begin.

[Guardian]

I think everyone on this list is at best cautiously optimistic, and at worst unhappy that they aren't getting a true Alpha Flight. I agree with Del, Alpha Flight the concept is not the problem. If they were, then they'd have appeared in Uncanny X-Men all those years ago and disappeared. This forum wouldn't be up and operational, and folks wouldn't be elated or pissed by the news of Oeming Flight.

As someone who tries to fill in every hole in my Alpha Flight collection, including cameos as small as the Aurora cover in Ms.Marvel, I'll be buying. Consider it a cameo if you must, but it will include at least some of the characters I've grown to love over the years. I can't see folks hanging around for Beta Ray Bill, USAgent, or Arachne for an extended period of time. I could be wrong about that though. I'm a little interested in the Arachne/Spider-Woman character, but the other two not so much. However, I will give Oeming and Kollins a chance to change my perspective on these characters. Talisman I couldn't be happeir to read more about and Guardian (regardless of who is in the suit) could lead to some good stories also. I know everyone wants Mac to be Guardian, but it would open some interesting stories up if he weren't. Especially if Mac, Heather, Sas, and Puck survived and come back to reclaim their identities.

Oeming has said there are older Alphans waiting to be reintroduced. Until he gives me a reason to disbelieve I will take his word for it. Marvel has to know that Guardian, Sasquatch, and Puck are fan favorites. I can't see them burying them for long. It may take a few issues to start seeing these folks, but I believe they will eventually be back. V2 was headed in that direction before the plug was pulled. They just didn't get there quick enough. I think V3 failed because the first thing they did was jettison the originals. Well that and crappy storytelling.

Color me cautiously optimistic. I'm exited to have at least some Alphans to read about again and will give Oeming Flight a chance to stand on its own before throwing stones and shooting it down. If there's any chance of seeing Alpha Flight any time soon, I think Omega has to be a success. I'm willing to support that endeavor.

As I mentioned earlier.. if you're still reading Mike. Make sure Marvel gives you the marketing you require. Make sure subscription service is available and advertised. Don't let Marvel leave you and, in the balance, us out to dry. This was once a hot property and if treated properly it can be again.

Tom

Very well put. I agree with everything you say. Well done. 8)

[Guardian]

Tests Friday, but I'm having a positive attitude and Omega Flight news helps! My classmates wonder where my newfound mental energy is coming from, I'm just deciding not to be a jerk anymore. Omega Flight simply cheered me up when I found out, and now with math and biology tests coming up, I'm full of the right kind of mind to improve my A's into A+, time to study. But Omega Flight is giving me good vibes to share. Who knew?

That's great to "hear". Good luck on your tests.

[Mokole]

Good luck, RolandT. Time for my students to have tests, too, hope they all do well.

Seems most people around here are at least happy that we've got a Flight back!

And Guardian and Talisman star! 8)

[Le Messor]

One of the things I am having trouble with is this anger. Three weeks back we had nothing, now we have a new series that although not Alpha, will have characters from Alpha being portrayed and most probably playing a big part. We've established that Alpha as it stands at the moment is so damaged that it wouldn't work without some external propping up. That again is still not good enough, we want our Alpha and we want it now.
Marvel wouldn't countenence a new Alpha, so Mike Oeming offers us the next best thing, still not good enough. Mike Oeming studies up on Alpha by visiting here, Kollins has said that he is a fan of Alpha Flight and has been waiting years to do this, still not good enough.


We heard all this before.

We're having exactly the same conversations we had before v2 and v3. Down to the spurious 'Gt Sized X-Men' justification. (Thanks, Tawmis! ;) )

But does anyone else think "Alpha Flight's last chance" should have Alpha Flight in it?

- LM
"Doomsayers cautiously optimistic."
- Futurama

[DelBubs]

But does anyone else think "Alpha Flight's last chance" should have Alpha Flight in it?

- LM
"Doomsayers cautiously optimistic."
- Futurama
And who's to say that in time it won't.

I use to eat a chocolate bar over here called 'Marathon', in time they changed it's name to 'Snickers', it still tastes the same as it originally did. Same ingredients, different wrapper.

(Added) It has been stated on a mailing list I'm on that Mattie Franklin is going to be a member of 'The Loners'. Not sure if it's official, but I think it more likely that Julia Carpenter is in OF.

[kozzi24]

I don't look at this book as "Alpha Flight" but as a group title that has strong ties to Alpha and Avengers.
It helps that I like US AGent and Beta Ray Bill, and Julia Carpenter. If anything, I think Arachne suffered because Marvel management wanted a character for new readers" in Mattie and "some" writer later wanted to change the Spider-Woman concept back to a 30-year old status quo with Jess Drew.

This new team has "Flight" in the title and is set in Canada. Tal;isman, and possibly other Alphas before long, will have a presence.

If they were titling this new book "Alpha Flight" I might be as angry as Dana, but it is a new concept, steeped in Marvel history.

I am looking at it as I did the Weapon X ongoing, a new product that will bring exposure to and some emphasis on Alpha-related characters

[DelBubs]

My qualm so far lies in "Beta Ray Bill" - not that he's on the team - but why does he look like... BOX?! (Or is it a BOX version fo Beta Ray Bill?! Egads!) :D But seriously BRB's arms were never the size of cannons... and the metal glove... what's with that!?

I do however REALLY like how everyone else is drawn (though most are shadows, you can still see the artistic styel there). It's only BRB that I really have an issue with how he's being drawn.
I went and asked questions about this and was told the following

"I suspect the gloves are actually Thor's old iron gloves that let him hold Mjolnir when he was a young godling (Marvel version).

Megingjarpar The Megingjarpar was also known as the "Girdle of Might", which made Thor even stronger than he was. Thor also possessed a pair of magic iron gloves, which allowed him to wield the Mjollnir. These magical items were given to him by the friendly giantess, Grid."

[Canucklehead]

My qualm so far lies in "Beta Ray Bill" - not that he's on the team - but why does he look like... BOX?! (Or is it a BOX version fo Beta Ray Bill?! Egads!) :D But seriously BRB's arms were never the size of cannons... and the metal glove... what's with that!?

I do however REALLY like how everyone else is drawn (though most are shadows, you can still see the artistic styel there). It's only BRB that I really have an issue with how he's being drawn.
I went and asked questions about this and was told the following

"I suspect the gloves are actually Thor's old iron gloves that let him hold Mjolnir when he was a young godling (Marvel version).

Megingjarpar The Megingjarpar was also known as the "Girdle of Might", which made Thor even stronger than he was. Thor also possessed a pair of magic iron gloves, which allowed him to wield the Mjollnir. These magical items were given to him by the friendly giantess, Grid."

Hmm... interesting! That wouldn't explain his "extra pounds" though, would it?

[Tawmis]

Tawmis: I think the thing with Bill's arms is probably just artistic flair. He's always been drawn a bit bulkier/larger than Thor, if I recall correctly, and so some artists draw him Hulk-like in scope. It works in terms of creating visual diversity among the characters.


*nod* I am sure it's artistic flair... Gods know I have seen that enough times (say like Namorita suddenly being blue in v3 with these weird white tattoos!) And certainly, while I don't enjoy how BRB is being drawn (or at least his shadowed form) - it's not going to stop me from collecting or enjoying Omega Flight! Just my personal taste of how Beta Ray Bill is being drawn.

As for typically being drawn bulkier than Thor, I'd disagree.

He's typically drawn about the same size as Thor (in almost all regards, save for the Horse Head look - he pretty much takes on a look exactly like Thor, in size, clothing, etc).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/39/Betaraybill3.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/THOR_83image_big.jpg

Like I said, it's not gonna ruin Omega Flight for me - I just don't care for the "Hulkified" version of Beta Ray Bill (or the big metal glove on his hand). Makes him look too much like... well, Box. :D



My qualm so far lies in "Beta Ray Bill" - not that he's on the team - but why does he look like... BOX?! (Or is it a BOX version fo Beta Ray Bill?! Egads!) :D But seriously BRB's arms were never the size of cannons... and the metal glove... what's with that!?

I do however REALLY like how everyone else is drawn (though most are shadows, you can still see the artistic styel there). It's only BRB that I really have an issue with how he's being drawn.
I went and asked questions about this and was told the following

"I suspect the gloves are actually Thor's old iron gloves that let him hold Mjolnir when he was a young godling (Marvel version).

Megingjarpar The Megingjarpar was also known as the "Girdle of Might", which made Thor even stronger than he was. Thor also possessed a pair of magic iron gloves, which allowed him to wield the Mjollnir. These magical items were given to him by the friendly giantess, Grid."

Thor has certainly used the Girdle of Might before - he had to against KURSE, when Beyonder doubled Kurse's strength to be twice as strong as Thor (then doubled it again, when Thor put on the girdle) - making Kurse insanely stronger than Thor.

As for the gloves... I don't remember the gloves ever being used in Marvel Comics. (Not to say that they could suddenly appear)! But even when Thor slapped on the girdle, Thor's "structure" of his body (and arms) remained the same. Also why would BRB need the gloves to handle his hammer, since he's done fine all these years? :) And if they are THOSE gloves, why couldn't they be more... well, flashy looking. A little more fancy and fantasy looking. :D

Again, just a TINY qualm! :D Just voicing it is all. :)

[Powersurge]

I never did like Beta Ray Bill. However, this Hulking image we have of him, does hold some appeal for me... giving him added distinction as it does from Thor.

As for the belt and the gauntlets; I'm not sure what BRB is doing with them (if indeed they are Thor's), but Thor has worn both before. I can't recall the specific story arcs off the top of my head, but the gauntlets were apparently necessary for Thor to strike his "unfettered might" blow. This blow was so awesome that the wind-up caused a tmaelstrom of energy to whisp about the hammer and the gauntlets supposedly protected Thor from this energy, so that he wouldn't suffer burns.

[PWalk]

It just wouldn't be a "Flight" team with out a really big, non human looking bad ass. Beta Ray fits the bill. I like it.

[Ahab]

It just wouldn't be a "Flight" team with out a really big, non human looking bad ass. Beta Ray fits the bill. I like it.

And orange! It wouldn't be a "Flight" team without a really big, orange non human looking bad ass.

[Canucklehead]

It just wouldn't be a "Flight" team with out a really big, non human looking bad ass. Beta Ray fits the bill. I like it.

lol You made me giggle 8)

[Guardian]

It just wouldn't be a "Flight" team with out a really big, non human looking bad ass. Beta Ray fits the bill. I like it.

lol You made me giggle 8)

:lol:

[Mokole]

Misters Kolins and Oeming will do a good job.

The Loners won't have a spider-woman, at least not at the start, as it was announced to be a miniseries, much like Lobdell's AF, and if sales warrant it will go beyond #6. It's supposed to be the Excelsior team from Runaways, sans fake Chamber. Turbo, Darkhawk, Ben Urisch, Julie Powers, Ricochet I think. Newsarama has it.

Anyway, Omega Flight will rock! :o

[-K-M-]

This new series definetly has people talking.

[Le Messor]

(Tone: Calm, slightly distracted (watching Angel), tired. Not angry or frustrated right now!)

I can't speak for Dana for sure, but I know what's frustrating me (besides having suddenly turned... blinvisible for a while). It's not that there's a new book that isn't Alpha Flight.

It's not that Delbubs and me are on the opposite side of the argument for once. :(

It's not the EXACT conversation we've had twice before. Including the artist and writer coming on and saying how much they respect Alpha, how this is the last chance for Alpha, how if we stick around (##) issues we'll actually see Alpha...

It's the expectation that my loyalty to Alpha Flight will extend to this book.
I try to pick up every appearance by an Alpha Flight character, as long as they are in Alpha Flight. That part of my Alpha loyalty extends to this book.

But please don't tell me that I have to read or enjoy this book As An Alpha Flight Fan. Not all of us pick up every appearance. Those who do not have _no obligation_ to Omega Flight.

I am an Alpha Flight fan.
I'm not an Omega Flight fan.
But I might be, when the book comes out. If I do become an Omega Fan, it'll be for what it is, and not for what it is not (which is Alpha Flight).

- Le Messor
"An angel offered someone their choice of infinite wisdom, health, or wealth. The person chose wisdom and sat silently for a few minutes, contemplating the mysteries of life and the universe, and said "I should've taken the money."

[DelBubs]

But please don't tell me that I have to read or enjoy this book As An Alpha Flight Fan. Not all of us pick up every appearance. Those who do not have _no obligation_ to Omega Flight.

I am an Alpha Flight fan.
I'm not an Omega Flight fan.
But I might be, when the book comes out. If I do become an Omega Fan, it'll be for what it is, and not for what it is not (which is Alpha Flight).

- Le Messor
"An angel offered someone their choice of infinite wisdom, health, or wealth. The person chose wisdom and sat silently for a few minutes, contemplating the mysteries of life and the universe, and said "I should've taken the money."
I am not going to read all the way through this thread to pick up on where anyone has told anyone they have to enjoy Omega Flight. As free thinking individuals, the only obligation we have is to ourselves and those who rely on us.
==============================
I am an Alpha Flight fan.
I'm not an Omega Flight fan.
But I might be, when the book comes out. If I do become an Omega Fan, it'll be for what it is, and not for what it is not (which is Alpha Flight).
==============================
Noble sentiments which I totally agree with. We only differ on one point Mik, it's just that after all my years as an Alpha Flight fan and seeing so much crap slung at them, I have chosen to be positive about the new book. Not Alpha I know, but something akin too, for that I'm grateful.

[Le Messor]

Del,

Somebody making us feel obliged to -support- (nothing about enjoy) this new series? Sorry, dude. I kinda meant you there.


We only differ on one point Mik, it's just that after all my years as an Alpha Flight fan and seeing so much crap slung at them, I have chosen to be positive about the new book. Not Alpha I know, but something akin too, for that I'm grateful.

I would love to be optimistic. I kind of am. This looks like a good brand new series. I'm looking forward to it.

We do differ in one other thing: I seem to be the only one here who's noticed that we had exactly the same conversations before vol 2, which I loathed with a fiery passion, and exactly the same conversations before vol 3, which was embarrassing (but I actually enjoyed it).
The writers said the same things. The artists said the same things. We said the same things.

(You think there's been no publicity? I think Marvel sends the creators here as part of their 'signing tour'. Though I don't think they orchestrated the whole thing; certainly not our part.)

I'm sorry, but I can't help approaching this with some cynicism.

I'm much more looking forward to the new ClanDestine series.

- Mik
"An Englishman on a plane to Australia was handed one of these cards to fill in, in normal Commonwealth style. After the standard questions like name, nationality, passport number, etc., he got to one that asked: "Have you ever been imprisoned?" After thinking about that for some time he entered: "I didn't know it was still a requirement."

[kozzi24]

Del,

Somebody making us feel obliged to -support- (nothing about enjoy) this new series? Sorry, dude. I kinda meant you there.



I would love to be optimistic. I kind of am. This looks like a good brand new series. I'm looking forward to it.

We do differ in one other thing: I seem to be the only one here who's noticed that we had exactly the same conversations before vol 2, which I loathed with a fiery passion, and exactly the same conversations before vol 3, which was embarrassing (but I actually enjoyed it).
The writers said the same things. The artists said the same things. We said the same things.

I'm sorry, but I can't help approaching this with some cynicism.

I'm much more looking forward to the new ClanDestine series.

- Mik


Mik, you are FAR from the only one who's noticed that the same things are being said of Omega Flight that were said of Vols 2 and 3. Other poster have mentioned it, and the conversation got quite heated.

The promises have been made twice before, with the same appeals to the readership. "We need to support the proferred title to get what we really want."
It is not a bad thing to have that reminder out there for Oeming and Marvel TPTB to read. They have no right to expect blind devotion, and anyone giving it is putting himself in the category of "those who can be fooled 100% of the time." Mike Oeming probably has the best of intentions and wants to see this succeed, but he and others at Marvel need to remember that we've heard all this TWICE before.

I am looking forward to Omega Flight, but I am not looking at it as Alpha Vol 4. With BRB, Arachne and John Walker, this seems as much as a new post Civil War Avengers book as an Alpha-related title.

I was one of the open naysayers of Volume 3. I read it on the racks for discussion here, but purchased the final issues in quarter bins. I voted with my $ and stopped buying it as a new publication.

I'd encourage anyone and everyone to try the new title when it's published. And if you don't like it, stop buying it IMMEDIATELY. If you continue buying something you don't like just to be able to talk about it, you are supporting it. To support it because of a promise (made twice before) that it may or will become something we'll like more, that strikes me as kind of silly.

I'm cynical about this project too, but it's in shades of gray. There are other things this title seems to have going for it. It deserves a chance, but it does not deserve blind devotyion because it has Talisman and a Guardian and is set in Canada.

[varo]

this may lead to a clue as to who the spiderwoman in the team pic may be.


• Ms. Marvel and former Avenger Wonder Man meet with Iron Man and Julia Carpenter (currently known as Arachne) at Stark Tower for a meeting concerning current, non-registered targets.

• Arachne is instructed to arrest The Shroud while Wonder Man and Ms. Marvel must find a young female hero named Araña who operates unregistered somewhere in Brooklyn.

• It appears Tony Stark is concerned some of his team may be agents for Captain America.

• When Arachne finds The Shroud, it's revealed that the pair is intimately involved. She warns him to run because S.H.I.E.L.D. is about to capture him, but he stays and faces a squad of Capekillers. Arachne decides to help The Shroud and both evade capture. Both are branded as fugitives.

• After searching without results for Araña, Ms. Marvel and Wonder Man stop for food at a restaurant called Chicken Cow. They soon find themselves in the middle of a robbery. Immediately after the heroes take out the crooks, Araña shows up in full body-armor, accidentally facing off against the two heroes.

[Canucklehead]

this may lead to a clue as to who the spiderwoman in the team pic may be.

If it's Arachne in Canada, where would the Shroud be?

[Ben]

this may lead to a clue as to who the spiderwoman in the team pic may be.

If it's Arachne in Canada, where would the Shroud be?

He was captured in Ms. Marvel #7

Ben

[syvalois]

There are other things this title seems to have going for it. It deserves a chance, but it does not deserve blind devotyion because it has Talisman and a Guardian and is set in Canada.

I totally agree with you on this. Oeming is saying buy the 3 first issues. I may do this. I see Omega Flight more as a spin off of AF and I'm not a completist or anything near it. If you want my money it's got to be good. Sorry, I don't have that loyalty to comic.

Actually, It's my brother Yves that bought the comics, I just read it. Except for AF vol3 where he was not interested in the serie, because it was not AF to him with only sasquatch and a bunch of new characters.

For me, I bought 1 issue and felt left with nothing. Plus, I never was a big Lobdell fan and that issue felt like how I felt after reading most of Lobdell stuff; bored. Very nice drawing, but not enough substance.

And yes, I've always had the same attitude: wait and see. And I still say the same. I can't judge what I have not seen. I prefer to be optimistic, but never forget it's all rumeurs at this point. The comic will speak for itself and if I don't like it, sorry but I will stop buying it.

I stayed with vol2, because I liked some of it. But yes, there was to much missed stories like the micronauts and we should not forget it was always coming out later than what it was schedule for, that also killed that serie.

Let just hope the new creative team will work well together, that is a very good start for the serie.

[DelBubs]

Making people feel obliged. Demanding devotion and loyalty to something people haven't seen yet. Do I need a solicitor ? Or is it more a case that people can be negative about something they haven't seen, but anyone who tries to be positive is castigated.

My mum says the proof of the pudding is in the eating, I'm gonna wait until I've had a bite before saying it don't taste right.

That doesn't mean I'm trying to force feed anyone :-)

[varo]

i was really trying to keep my trap shut about the whole thing, but i have to totally agree.

we get it, you don't like it because it's not the originals, most of you see it as more of a spin-off than the actual alpha flight, but ten pages worth of negativity before issue 1 has even hit the shelf's is getting to be a bit much.

oeming and kollins have been very gracious with their interviews and coming to these boards looking for our input and trying to promote the series.

give it a chance, or if your minds already made up, don't give it a chance.

but i think everyones position on the series has been made clear. can we move on now?

[Canucklehead]

OK, no one is saying anyone has to feel "blindly obligated" to buy this book. No one is holding a gun to anyones head to buy the book. It's pretty simple.

If you're not curious, don't buy #1.
If you're curious, you can buy #1.
If it doesn't contain enough Alpha and you don't like it, don't buy #2.
If it doesn't contain enough Alpha but you still like it, you can buy #2.
If it contains a lot of Alpha references and you still don't like it, don't buy #2.
If it contains a lot of Alpha references and you like it, you can buy #2.

Continue the previous steps with issues 3 and above. Wash and repeat.

Dave

Edit: The above two posts also have it right. Subject ends riiiight.... now. 8)

[Guardian]

this may lead to a clue as to who the spiderwoman in the team pic may be.

If it's Arachne in Canada, where would the Shroud be?

He was captured in Ms. Marvel #7

Ben

Yup, Shroud came up with the idea to go to Canada. But Julia wouldn't leave without her daughter. On the way to get her daughter, the Shroud was captured by Ms. Marvel and Wonder Man. And presumably, Julia is going to get her daughter.
And Arana was more than willing to register and train with Iron Man's side. :(

I have a strong feeling that the woman in the Omega Flight picture is Julia Carpenter. Which I kinda like. I've always been a fan of the spider women.

[varo]

so many issues to buy this week because of all these potential omega tie-ins.

:?

[Guardian]

so many issues to buy this week because of all these potential omega tie-ins.

:?

Nah, I bought Ms. Marvel #7 because I read the series. It's a pretty damn good series.

Just out of curiosity, what other issues might have potential O.F. tie-ins?

[varo]

well, besides ms. marvel, theres a interesting tid-bit on cw files, theres the upcoming short story w/ kollins/oeming about usagent.

thats all i can think of off teh top of my head, but something tells me of will be playing a role in cw.

how cool would it be to see beta ray bill show up and knock some sense into thor.

[Guardian]

well, besides ms. marvel, theres a interesting tid-bit on cw files, theres the upcoming short story w/ kollins/oeming about usagent.

thats all i can think of off teh top of my head, but something tells me of will be playing a role in cw.

how cool would it be to see beta ray bill show up and knock some sense into thor.

Ah, I thought you were talkin' about stuff that came out this week. I read most of the CW:Files stuff and know what your talkin' about. And I'll be picking up the book with the story about U.S. Agent.

And yes, if Thor at some point doesn't switch to Captain America's side, I'd love to see Thor get his butt handed to him by someone. And Beta Ray Bill is one of the few that could do it.

[Powersurge]

Pfffft. Beta Ray Bill. But yeah, he managed to beat Thor (pfffffffffftttt) even without the power he now has.

Anyway, I understand Thor's desire for forthright honesty in the doing of deeds, upholding the law, and protecting the underdog -- all completely in keeping with his role in the myth and culture that spawned Marvel Thor -- but Thor as a government lackey?! And the lackey of a state that *forces* all registered superhumans into it's service; regardless of any and everything thing. Not likely.

In fact I was just down at the comicship, and the guy working there said that he suspects the symbolism of Thor smashing Cap's shield is Thor switching sides and taking up arms against SHIELD. He also pointed out the surprised look on Mr.Fantastics face in the promo art.

Hmmm. Interesting theory.

[Phil]

I can't believe I just sat and read over a weeks worth of comments... I need a beer... 8)

[DelBubs]

Just the one ?

[Phil]

You only ever need the first one... the rest you just want.

[Mokole]

I still think the lineup will include Hudson and Elizabeth. US Agent (Walker), Arachne (Carpenter), and obviously Beta Ray Bill. The lineup looks solid and should be able to take down anyone. I'm hoping we get more news in a few weeks.

No reason my ideas won't be right. Who knows, maybe I'm right about when OF shows up in Civil War, too. :wink:

[-K-M-]

Yeah this team is pretty darn uber, I'm glad their not taking on people like Mole Man they deserve to take on mystical creatures

[Guardian]

If your line-up is correct, it's not a bad one at all. They definetly could handle many different threats. I hope your right Mokole, about Mac and Elizabeth. :D

[Le Messor]

thats all i can think of off teh top of my head, but something tells me of will be playing a role in cw.

It occurs to me we should spell 'OF' in capitals. Or, it's just 'of'. 'Something tells me of the new series...' :shock:


I still think the lineup will include Hudson and Elizabeth. No reason my ideas won't be right.

Other than Oeming saying he sees only one Canadian in a picture with both of them in it? That's a pretty big reason.

I know some people want to think he means he only sees one maple leaf; but that'd be pretty deceptive of him if he did. I'd lose respect.

- Le Messor
"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Transmetropolitan]

I hate to be the bearer of doom and gloom...

But how sure are we all that that's Talisman's tiara? I see glowing eyes and a glowing headband of some kind.

Granted, the figure on the left of the picture is also one with a "northern" feel to her getup, but the only definite clues we have? She has a pouch (which can presumably be Shaman's, or one like it), she has a glowing tiara-thingy, a similar glow off of her hands, and she dresses to impress.

I wouldn;t call those sufficient clues to ID her as Talisman.

[Legerd]

I hate to be the bearer of doom and gloom...

But how sure are we all that that's Talisman's tiara? I see glowing eyes and a glowing headband of some kind.

Granted, the figure on the left of the picture is also one with a "northern" feel to her getup, but the only definite clues we have? She has a pouch (which can presumably be Shaman's, or one like it), she has a glowing tiara-thingy, a similar glow off of her hands, and she dresses to impress.

I wouldn;t call those sufficient clues to ID her as Talisman.

I just hope it's not a case of it is Talisman, but not Elizabeth. She is the one prophesied to be Talisman in this age, and (the one story way back when not withstanding) she isn't supposed to be able to remove the tiara.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...but optimistically ambivalent. My skepticism comes from seeing the comic book industry throw some wicked curveballs to keep things from becoming too predictable (by fans) and to keep (fans) guessing.

And truth be told, the way Omega Flight is being picked apart five months (at least) before it's due out, it wouldn't be far-fetched for something goofy/unwanted to make it into the new series.

To me, as Omega Flight is said to be stemming out of CIVIL WAR, a follow-up to "The Collective" seems in order. I think the Zorn/Xorn should have made permanent new enemies by offing most of Alpha Flight, and if the best anybody can do for Sasquatch is put him in a dress and have him beat up girls, I'd much rather have Beta Ray Bill as the powerhouse of the new group.

[Tawmis]

It just wouldn't be a "Flight" team with out a really big, non human looking bad ass. Beta Ray fits the bill. I like it.

And orange! It wouldn't be a "Flight" team without a really big, orange non human looking bad ass.

:lol: Now that is funny!



My mum says the proof of the pudding is in the eating, I'm gonna wait until I've had a bite before saying it don't taste right.
That doesn't mean I'm trying to force feed anyone :-)

Del, we may be brothers... me mummy always said the same! :D



how cool would it be to see beta ray bill show up and knock some sense into thor.

Hrm. I love BRB and I love Thor. But I do not want to see BRB knock some sense into THOR. I'd rather not see Thor get his arse whooped just yet as they plan on launching a series - and a nice way to do that is show how much of a bad ass he is. :D (Although I am pretty sure this Thor is actually Dargo....)


Pfffft. Beta Ray Bill. But yeah, he managed to beat Thor (pfffffffffftttt) even without the power he now has.

Anyway, I understand Thor's desire for forthright honesty in the doing of deeds, upholding the law, and protecting the underdog -- all completely in keeping with his role in the myth and culture that spawned Marvel Thor -- but Thor as a government lackey?! And the lackey of a state that *forces* all registered superhumans into it's service; regardless of any and everything thing. Not likely.

In fact I was just down at the comicship, and the guy working there said that he suspects the symbolism of Thor smashing Cap's shield is Thor switching sides and taking up arms against SHIELD. He also pointed out the surprised look on Mr.Fantastics face in the promo art.

Hmmm. Interesting theory.

What promo art is this?!

Also - like I said, I don't think this is the THOR we all know (and should!) love... I believe it's actually Dargo. There have been hints about it - but the big clue comes from the solicitation for the Marvel Universe Handbook - it lists "Thor (Dargo)" but not the regular Thor...


I hate to be the bearer of doom and gloom...

But how sure are we all that that's Talisman's tiara? I see glowing eyes and a glowing headband of some kind.

Granted, the figure on the left of the picture is also one with a "northern" feel to her getup, but the only definite clues we have? She has a pouch (which can presumably be Shaman's, or one like it), she has a glowing tiara-thingy, a similar glow off of her hands, and she dresses to impress.

I wouldn;t call those sufficient clues to ID her as Talisman.

I am still holding to the theory that it's not Talisman (as in Elizabeth) - but it's Snowbird with all three (her own powers, Talisman and Shaman's pouch)... can we say insanely uber? :)

[Powersurge]

It's a picture of Thor shattering Cap's shield, with a number of heroes in the background to Thor's right. The shattered shield is in the upper corner to Thor's left.

You must have seen it. It's been circulating for awhile now.

Hmmm, Dargo, eh? That teenager from the future. Hmmmm.

[Tawmis]

It's a picture of Thor shattering Cap's shield, with a number of heroes in the background to Thor's right. The shattered shield is in the upper corner to Thor's left.

You must have seen it. It's been circulating for awhile now.

Hmmm, Dargo, eh? That teenager from the future. Hmmmm.

Nope... have not seen the picture yet! Gah!

And yeah - Dargo seems to be who this Thor is... or so we're speculating (I am on a Thor Fan list...)

[varo]

who's dargo?

btw, ms. marvel #7 is a very good issue to jump on and not only to catch up on a potential OF member, but to check out a pretty well-written series.

[DelBubs]

Dargo (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thor_(Dargo_Ktor))
Haven't read Ms Marvel #7 as I haven't been to pick it up. I only came on board with #6 cos of Spider Woman. Plus I'm having difficulty as Carol Danvers is one of my fave characters, espescially as Binary and as I am anti SHR I don't like how she's being protrayed. :twisted:

Just as a reminder as everyone is pretty good about this, can we remember the **SPOILER WHITE OUT** for any info on recent books. 8)

[Guardian]

Dargo (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thor_(Dargo_Ktor))
Haven't read Ms Marvel #7 as I haven't been to pick it up. I only came on board with #6 cos of Spider Woman. Plus I'm having difficulty as Carol Danvers is one of my fave characters, espescially as Binary and as I am anti SHR I don't like how she's being protrayed. :twisted:

Yeah Ms. Marvel is a great new series. Issue #7 was great as well. Ms. Marvel is one of my favorite characters and I too was a bit upset that she joined Iron Man's side. :evil: But I wasn't really surprised. Oh well, maybe she'll defect to Cap's side. :)

[Tawmis]

who's dargo?

btw, ms. marvel #7 is a very good issue to jump on and not only to catch up on a potential OF member, but to check out a pretty well-written series.

Dargo's profile: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/thordargoktor.htm

And as for Ms. Marvel - aside from Astonishing X-Men, it is currently the BEST series at Marvel... in art and story.

[Le Messor]

But how sure are we all that that's Talisman's tiara? I see glowing eyes and a glowing headband of some kind.

I see a glowing, roughly heart-shaped but angular red jewel surrounded by gold.

I read bits about Oeming saying she's the one with the greatest ties to Alpha Flight (which is part of why I don't believe that's Mac in the Guardian suit).

These two together tell me that's probably Talisman.

- Le Messor
"Don't think twice, it's all right."
- Bob Dylan

[Tawmis]

But how sure are we all that that's Talisman's tiara? I see glowing eyes and a glowing headband of some kind.
I see a glowing, roughly heart-shaped but angular red jewel surrounded by gold.
I read bits about Oeming saying she's the one with the greatest ties to Alpha Flight (which is part of why I don't believe that's Mac in the Guardian suit).
These two together tell me that's probably Talisman.


See, and this is why I think it's Snowbird. While Talisman has ties to Alpha Flight... I never really considered her to be a member... and Snowbird - she just seems like... I dunno. Maybe because I think it being Elizabeth seems like to EASY of answer. (Although extremely logical - I mean, she is Talisman, and it makes sense that she'd take her father's pouch)... but I just can't shake that Snowbird theory (that I apparently, alone, have) :D

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Sounds like a win-win choice to me. The tiara seems destined to be worn by Elizabeth. But Elizabeth doesn't like her dad that much. Snowbird is basically Shaman's surrogate daughter, and Alpha Flight were her friends.
But she doesn't seem to be the one destined to wear the tiara.

Either one is good for me, but I think this is going to be one of the characters that is going to be one of those wicked curveballs.

[Le Messor]

I just can't shake that Snowbird theory (that I apparently, alone, have) :D

:) Shrugs.
I haven't decided yet. I think Elizabeth, but I'm definitely open to the Snowbird theory.

Note, however, that she has that hanging panel Elizabeth wore. (Sorry, I can't describe it better than that without entering the realm of unintentional double-entendre.)

- Le Messor
"An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come."
- Victor Hugo

[Mokole]

And as one person pointed out, there's no head dress on the pic that Snowbird always has in humanoid form. It's Twoyoungmen. If there's any curveballs on the lineup in the pic, it'd be spiderwoman to me. No way there's anything to worry about with Talisman and Guardian.

BTW, just read this at comix-fan:


Originally Posted by Scratchy
Are you editing, or CB Cebulski? Alonso?

Originally Posted by Tom Brevoort
Andy Schmidt.

Tom B

[Tawmis]

And as one person pointed out, there's no head dress on the pic that Snowbird always has in humanoid form. It's Twoyoungmen.

Now wouldn't you think wearing the Talisman headband AND Snowbird's own traditional headband be a bit... eh, overkill? :) I think to wear the Talisman headband, she'd give up her own. :D

[DelBubs]

I'm on the Twoyoungmen side. I doubt that Oeming would want to over convolute things to begin with, plus that pic of Shaman and Talisman that he posted elsewhere has Elizabeth in a coat very similar to the shadowed figure.

As an aside, just read Ms Marvel #7. I know that in 'Civil War #4' somebody high profile is suppose to buy the farm. So joining dots :

**POSSIBLE SPOILERS MIXED WITH OVER THE TOP SPECULATION**
Julia is on the run from a couple of heavy hitters. Why introduce her going to get her daughter at all, it could have been written that she had her daughter closer and she goes straight to Canada. Jessica Drew has just joined up with Caps crew. So of the top of my head, Julia dies, Jessica is in the pic :-). Nothing like the death of a mother in front of her daughter to tug at the heart strings. :cry:

[Guardian]

I'm on the Twoyoungmen side. I doubt that Oeming would want to over convolute things to begin with, plus that pic of Shaman and Talisman that he posted elsewhere has Elizabeth in a coat very similar to the shadowed figure.

As an aside, just read Ms Marvel #7. I know that in 'Civil War #4' somebody high profile is suppose to buy the farm. So joining dots :

**POSSIBLE SPOILERS MIXED WITH OVER THE TOP SPECULATION**
Julia is on the run from a couple of heavy hitters. Why introduce her going to get her daughter at all, it could have been written that she had her daughter closer and she goes straight to Canada. Jessica Drew has just joined up with Caps crew. So of the top of my head, Julia dies, Jessica is in the pic :-). Nothing like the death of a mother in front of her daughter to tug at the heart strings. :cry:

Possible Spoliers and more speculation:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.'
.
.
I don't think that Julia will die. Just based on the facts that there is some spider woman in Omega Flight (Julia) and the fact that Jessica Drew gets here own stand alone series after Civil War.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Done :D

[Mokole]

I have no spoilers, just thoughts. They aren't putting any new characters into Flight, just former-non-Flight characters will be joining. Like Puck and Heather, then Nemesis and Sasquatch, the team will be built around two Alpha Flighters, in this case Mac and Talisman. Unlike the last two times Flight will have three known characters in the side, not three new people or people in new roles, hence Arachne (most likely), US Agent, and Beta Ray Bill.

So at least two established Alphaverse characters with three known quantities.

But if there is a sixth actual team member, which Flighter will it be? Who makes sense given what Oeming has for a team now? Persuasion? Box? Puck? Heather and Sasquatch make so sense given the current lineup (and could be dead anyway) and I feel they'll have Shaman dead, with Zuzha and MML. Puck seems to be a possibility. But it could really be just those 5, as Cebulski said the team was set.

Andy Schmidt edits non-Avengers non-Spider-Man, non-X-Men books like Annhilation and Runaways, I think. With him as editor this would put Omega Flight outside of the Avengers and X-Men Universe, which is good. Not tied to either means they can deal with any threat. :D

[RolandT]

I tend to agree with Mokole's roster pics. If a new person is added I agree that it will be another Alpha flight person. Would it be a guy or woman from the early years? Then maybe Snowbird, since she's not in the pic then.

Fun finding out, eh?

[Le Messor]

built around two Alpha Flighters, in this case Mac and Talisman.

*sigh* One more time.
Oeming has looked at a picture with both 'Talisman' and 'Guardian' (in quotes, because only he knows who they are), and seen only one Canadian.

He has also been quoted as 'she has the strongest ties to Alpha Flight'.

The second part alone means he can't be Mac. The first implies he's not even Canadian.

If that is Mac and Elizabeth, Oeming has been severely dishonest. I have no reason to assume he's dishonest.

I plan not to say this again.

- Le Messor
"An ounce of example is worth a pound of theory."

[DelBubs]

If that is Mac and Elizabeth, Oeming has been severely dishonest. I have no reason to assume he's dishonest.

I plan not to say this again.


One would assume that there is a difference between being dishonest and being ambiguous?

[Le Messor]

One would assume that there is a difference between being dishonest and being ambiguous?

Yes. But the statements weren't ambiguous. One Canadian. One with the most connections with Alpha Flight.

There is, of course, another possibility: they changed their minds. That, in the picture on the banner I'm looking at, it wasn't both Mac and Liz at the time of drawing, but now it is. (I don't have any reason to think that, though.)
If it is both of them, I'm gonna be kinda upset.

But also kinda pleased. :?

Can't you guys just say Oeming got creative? Maybe the 'Mac' isn't from Earth. Or 616. Or...

- Le Messor
"An unmarried man is incomplete; a married man is finished."

[DelBubs]

Or maybe another Clone Mac, would Dept H have only made one Mac during that Prometheus program ? :lol: :? :wink:

[Le Messor]

Or maybe another Clone Mac, would Dept H have only made one Mac during that Prometheus program ? :lol: :? :wink:

:) Ah, but still technically Canadian.

- Le Messor
"Japanese aren't statistically serial killers."
"What about Godzilla?"
"Not technically Japanese. He was born in international waters."
- Shriek if you Know What I did Last Friday the 13th

[DelBubs]

Okay, so it's probably not going to be Mac, just re-read the interview from SBC and I quote :-


MAO: Well, I can’t give that away yet. I will say that only one team member who has previously been in Flight will be on the team, but we will be seeing the return of at least one of the members killed in the New Avengers. But with flashbacks and such, we’ll also get a glimpse of the team in its glory from time to time.


So if that's Talisman, then that can't be Mac and here we go again :-)

[Le Messor]

only one team member who has previously been in Flight will be on the team, but we will be seeing the return of at least one of the members killed in the New Avengers.
So if that's Talisman, then that can't be Mac and here we go again :-)

'zackly.

Also, note my reemphasising:
One team member on the team; somebody who 'died' returns. The returner doesn't (according to the above) have to be on the team.

- Le Messor
"Anarchy may not be the best form of government, but it's better than no government at all."

[varo]

isn't elizabeth native american?

seems like a loophole to me.

[RolandT]

I figure the same as Del, that the reference to New Avengers is to Mac, he "sees" only one Canadian so "sees" only Mac, and thus Talisman is there but isn't obviously Canadian (no flag) and didn't die in New Avengers, and a previous Flight associate is there, so that's Talisman.

Seeing and knowing are two different things. After all, people speculate that Talisman isn't Elizabeth but Snowbird, who isn't Canadian.

I still see Mac and Elizabeth in what he says.

[Barnacle13]

So if Talisman is indeed Elizabeth, and I'm hoping she is, since she is the one destined to bear that responsibility, then who could Guardian be? If it's not an old member of Alpha Flight or a Canadian, as Liz is both, who does that leave? A Mac clone could be an easy answer, and I'd argue that a clone has no nationality, as most nations consider only those "born" within their border, an offspring of a citizen, someone married to another citizen, or one who is naturalized to be a citizen. A clone wouldn't fit any of those rules. I'm personally hoping this isn't the case. I'd rather have cyborg Mac come back later if he's gonna be a part of the story. It could be a nonhuman, like the original Human Torch. Who's to say they couldn't take the technology that much farther. Personally that would suck in my opinion. Who'd want a robot as the icon for their country? Of course if you don't know it's not a man I guess it doesn't hurt. If it were Tony Stark it would be intriguing, but I don't think the Canadians out there would like it much. Same goes for Clint Barton. I'm not sure who I'd like Guardian to be, but I have a feeling it isn't the real Mac. They may even have us believe it is him for awhile and let us find out later our assumptions were all wrong. At any rate I intend to find out.

Methinks Marvel is getting exactly what they want out of the intelligence they're releasing. Plenty to speculated and discuss. Plenty to spin excitement and/or disdain. In short people are talking about the new title and I'm sure Marvel couldn't be happier.

[reaperbot]

I doubt it's Sasquatch who's coming back but he could return at any time. His body is an amalgam of Great Beast/Northern God. In addition, Langkowski might be dead but Tanaraq surely isn't. Also, I seem to recall Sasquatch digging out of the grave way nack in volume 1.

[Draconis]

The individual in the Guardian suit may be Miss Carpenters' current squeeze(Hint, Hint). Which would make Oemings' statement true.

[-K-M-]

Also, I seem to recall Sasquatch digging out of the grave way nack in volume 1.

Pestilence took over the deceased Sasquatch body and made it animate once again. I would love to see Tanaraq, a non-jobbing Tanaraq as he was portrayed in Exiles.

[DelBubs]

The individual in the Guardian suit may be Miss Carpenters' current squeeze(Hint, Hint). Which would make Oemings' statement true.
Interesting notion, but would the Shroud want to take on that identity? His powers against the power of the suit, I think he would want to stick with what is familiar.

BTW, welcome to forum Draconis, glad to have you here.

[Guardian]

The individual in the Guardian suit may be Miss Carpenters' current squeeze(Hint, Hint). Which would make Oemings' statement true.
Interesting notion, but would the Shroud want to take on that identity? His powers against the power of the suit, I think he would want to stick with what is familiar.

BTW, welcome to forum Draconis, glad to have you here.

Yeah, I seriously doubt that the Shroud is in the Guardian suit. I mean, I love the Shroud, but I too don't think that Max would take over as Guardian. His powers now are amazing enough.
SPOILER

















And besides as of now he's been captured by Ms. Marvel and Wonder Man. Hopefully Max will escape though.










END

[Mokole]

News will come out slowly it seems, no problem there since the series won't come out until February or March, lots of bills to pay before then. Plus start a new job search, find a cure for autism, get some sleep for a change... :cry:

Oh, it's not all that bad. I firmly believe Guardian and Talisman are the same characters we know so well. Maybe Shaman is dead, MML and Zuzha too. Somehow I doubt Heather, Puck, or Sasquatch is going to called dead. Heather maybe blind and otherwise impaired (or just not in the mood to wear an electric body suit anymore), Sasquatch maybe off work, such stuff. Somebody is dead, maybe more, maybe Civil War will spill the beans in issue #5. Wait and see, I guess. Maybe Frontline. It would be a shame to wait until Omega Flight comes out. But Marvel people are probably out to lunch overall on that, like it matters to them. :P

[varo]

i fully expect alpha/omega to have a role in cw. it will provide a launchpad for the series.

[DelBubs]

Probably in #5 or 6. It's gonna be fun watching how Mike Oeming brings this all together so it doesn't look to contrived.

Amended due to events in Civil War #4. As Reed isn't above using clones, then theoretically Captain America could stay in America and still be in Canada at the same time.. Just saying that's all :? :P

[RolandT]

Probably in #5 or 6. It's gonna be fun watching how Mike Oeming brings this all together so it doesn't look to contrived.

Amended due to events in Civil War #4. As Reed isn't above using clones, then theoretically Captain America could stay in America and still be in Canada at the same time.. Just saying that's all :? :P

Maybe. But then wouldn't the clone be under Reed's control? What good would that be to Omega Flight?

[DelBubs]

Given the events in Civil War #4, I wouldn't say the Clones are that controllable as of yet. If Omega get the real Cap, the Pro Reg boys can have the controlled Clone. :-)

[varo]

there is no way that the Captain america or usagent above is a clone it will be the original usagent, he has a story by oeming/kollins coming up in a one shot cw story

[Guardian]

Agreed. It will be the real John Walker.

[DelBubs]

Well having just read that interview at CBR, I guess it's gonna be US Agent. So it's the is it Talisman or not question, is it Arachne or not question and who is in that suit?

[Canucklehead]

So this is the team as we know it so far. Pretty strong team. Can't wait to see who the other 2 Canadian characters are that will be helping the team, as per the new interview.

http://geocities.com/davidchenard99/omegateam.jpg

[-K-M-]

It's an uber team, Beta Ray Bill has been shown smaking around Thor and Stardust one of Galactus' hearlds. Then there is Talisman, who is stated to be Dr.Strange level and then Guardian who took down Galactus himself.

Uber team.

[RolandT]

Yes, they're being a bit coy but it's Beta Ray Bill, US Agent, THE Guardian, and Talisman, likely Arachne too then. I guess how Guardian and Talisman play out in Civil War is why Oeming can't confirm they are characters just yet, though I can't see how knowing the Guardian is alive spoils Civil War.

As far as my Friday tests, 90 and 87. Not bad.

[Mokole]

Well, Beta Ray Bill and US Agent are now official, so that leaves the full announcements for Guardian Hudson, Talisman Twoyoungmen, and SpiderWoman left. Yes, the 'It's Mac Hudson' and 'It's Elizabeth Twoyoungmen' announcements will be anticlimactic, so might the deal with Arachne. But it's good to get closer, isn't it? :wink:

The article, to me, pretty much makes is soooo obvious that Mac and Elizabeth are on board, plus the Oeming for Hernandez fund Omega Flight painting of Talisman. I know people will still be jittery until Mac and Elizabeth are 'official', just not me. 8)

I'm not 100% sure about Arachne but the other 4? THe 6th person who will help the team but not be a member is a more mysterious conundrum. :shock:

I guess the "I only see one Canadian" curveball is easy to hit, now. See one, one not so obvious to the naked ey. :D

[varo]

spiderwoman is arachne for sure as per the events of ms. marvel #6.

so i would say:

arachne
usagent
beta ray bill

with only guardian and talisman a question mark.

i kinda like this team.

[Julesville]

What would really be cool and definatly put OF at the forefront of the Marvel world is to have a very public fight between Guardian and Iron Man, where it's a potential border conflict that boils over into a philisophical debate, then a throw down, and Guardian should totally wipe the floor with Iron Dork. It could be publicized and embaressing for IM, and it could be a very example of super heros crossing the line, ya know, using weapons of destruction to settle arguments. It would be sweet.


Peace.

[Guardian]

What would really be cool and definatly put OF at the forefront of the Marvel world is to have a very public fight between Guardian and Iron Man, where it's a potential border conflict that boils over into a philisophical debate, then a throw down, and Guardian should totally wipe the floor with Iron Dork. It could be publicized and embaressing for IM, and it could be a very example of super heros crossing the line, ya know, using weapons of destruction to settle arguments. It would be sweet.


Peace.

Hell yes! I'd love to see Iron Man get his butt kicked by Guardian. But I'd love to see Tony "I'm a Traitorous Coward" Stark get his butt kicked by anyone.
And I'd love to anyone kill that damnThor clone.

[Guardian]

It's an uber team, Beta Ray Bill has been shown smaking around Thor and Stardust one of Galactus' hearlds. Then there is Talisman, who is stated to be Dr.Strange level and then Guardian who took down Galactus himself.

Uber team.

Yeah I'm liking this team more and more too. You've got a leader (Guardian), a patriot (US Agent), a mystic(Talisman), a heart(Arachne), and a powerhouse (BRB). Assuming (hopefully) that this is the lineup. But more are always welcome. :D

[Canucklehead]

What would really be cool and definatly put OF at the forefront of the Marvel world is to have a very public fight between Guardian and Iron Man, where it's a potential border conflict that boils over into a philisophical debate, then a throw down, and Guardian should totally wipe the floor with Iron Dork. It could be publicized and embaressing for IM, and it could be a very example of super heros crossing the line, ya know, using weapons of destruction to settle arguments. It would be sweet.


Peace.

Damn straight that'd be sweet, only problem is, there's many heroes that deserve first crack at him. Spidey and Cap to name a couple. It just wouldn't seem fair if they all had a crack at him... though it'd be quite entertaining. 8)

[SephirothsKiller]

Just read the Oeming interview at Newsarama.... I honestly think this book is... Well it just won't do it for me. I mean seriously, Canadianism can be over the top in AF books, but I'm not too happy with the whole "One of us carries an American flag!!" Vibe. It seems to go against... Everything.

Not to mention that it seems like no actual AF members will be coming back... No Sasquatch is rediculous. I want an Alpha Flight book, and I would gladly forsake any sort of watered down subset of it if I knew that I my team wasn't going to end up bastardized. (And embittered?)

And on top of all this. I'm still angry off about the whole, /Killing off a team which has power players off the charts/ thing. And I'm still angry at the whole "two alpha flights" thing, And last but not least, I'm angry at this quote by Oeming:

But "running to Canada Vietnam style" was never in the picture. There will be characters like that, but they wouldn't be in Flight, you don’t put cowards on your team.

Dear god... Yes, they're superheroes who have fought time and again, and constantly risk death, but hell, if they ever decide to become consiencious objectors they're now cowards who don't deserve a team?

EDIT: If this post makes no sense... Its cuz I'm sleepy.

[SephirothsKiller]

Oh, and I'd like to add that I just realized how funny this is...

"There was no way me and McNiven were going to show up in this country without announcing a new Alpha Flight," Bendis said.

This is funny because McNiven lives in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. I was at Strange Adventures the othe day actually, and apparently Steve has been so backed up with drawing Civil War he wasn't allowed to go to any comic cons.

To finish, I just found out that Word On The Street (Halifax book festival thingy) has a graphics novel section this year (listed as "fun for kids of all ages, *sigh* stupid comic book "kiddie" stigma,) and McNiven is going to be there. Time for some book signage!!

(And Brian Lee O'Malley will be signing Scott Pilgrim volumes 2 and 3 to go with my already signed volume 1.)

[Le Messor]

Well having just read that interview at CBR, I guess it's gonna be US Agent. So it's the is it Talisman or not question, is it Arachne or not question and who is in that suit?

I thought 'To be or not to be' was the question?


You've got a leader (Guardian), a patriot (US Agent)

What good is a US patriot on a Canadian team? Shouldn't the patriot be whoever's in the Guardian suit? ('cept, it seems, he's not Canadian. Unless Oeming is lying to us.)

And, sorry, SephirothsKiller, but your post makes perfect sense.

- Le Messor
"And clever rogues with far less valid cause, have trapped their victims in a web of laws."
- Moliere

[Flameworthy]

I still say Persuasion belongs on this book. This team needs a little youth and vigour. :D

[Mokole]

Well, I'm thinking that US Agent is not runing away but wil be ordered away. He is OK with the SRA but not with hunting down heroes. So for his insubordination he's told to kiss off.

Arachne is similar, she's signed in but not agreeing with catching heroes; she'll run a bit and head to Canada in disgust, not sent away or escaping capture, just leaving the mess a la Thing.

I doubt they'll 'desert'.

[DelBubs]

Well, I'm thinking that US Agent is not runing away but wil be ordered away. He is OK with the SRA but not with hunting down heroes. So for his insubordination he's told to kiss off.

Arachne is similar, she's signed in but not agreeing with catching heroes; she'll run a bit and head to Canada in disgust, not sent away or escaping capture, just leaving the mess a la Thing.

I doubt they'll 'desert'.
Arachne has already deserted, in Miss Marvel #7 (Possible Spoilers, although I think most have read it) she is sent to capture 'The Shroud'. Secretly they are an item and when Capekillers :?: burst in she helps him take them down. She was last seen being chased by Miss Marvel and Wonder Man.. I don't like what Carol Danvers has become or more to the point, how she's being portrayed, but am enjoying the comic at present, prolly due to Arachne.

[Powersurge]

We've begun to debate the morality of the SRA, and it's implamentation, over on the Classic Marvel rpg site (in light of the events of CW#4), and do want to know what I'm sick of?

SPOILER SPACE






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I'm sure some of you who have dialogued on CW with me can imagine, but it's all of the deserters. On BOTH sides.

You know, I am a Canadian and a Teutonic Heathen, but mine is a wisdom tradition and so I am hardly ignorant of the example set by such folk as Jesus Christ and Martin Luther King Jr.; two figures that loom very large in at least some part of the collective psyche of the U.S.A.

Why is it all zeal and extremism, Nth degree polarization and bi-polar switches?! Why is civil WAR the only thing anyone seems to be able to concieve? Why is there no moderation, no conscience, no civil DISOBEDIENCE? In fact, why is there no selfless heroism?

Even Sue Storm, who has displayed more backbone than ANYONE else in this entire crossover, ruins it by simply flip-flopping in the end and turning her back on the side she chose.

Whats with the entire "you're-either-for-us-or-against-us" mentality?!

I know, I know, if everyone was a moderate and chose the middle ground a peaceful and acceptable resolution would be found and we wouldn't get tot the see the jaw-dropping hero vs. hero violence and shinnanigans, we have been witnessing. Not much of a story in that.

But really, shouldn't there be some moderate who sticks to both their loyalities and their conscience, and opposes fallacy of their fellows from within?

Who is the conscience of either the pro- or anti- reg.'ers in all this?

It is very much starting to seem to me that whomever withs this war, it will, as always, be the common folk who will lose in the end.

Sorry for the rant folks... here under this thread.

[Le Messor]

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I am hardly ignorant of the example set by such folk as Jesus Christ
Whats with the entire "you're-either-for-us-or-against-us" mentality?!

"He who is not with me is against me." - Jesus, Matt 12:30

But I see your point. It always bugged me when Hank Pym had no trouble turning over Cap when he came for a visit. I didn't think that, just because Pym chose the Iron Man side, it automatically meant he'd betray a friend...

Suddenly getting the Judas imagery I'd never seen before.

- Le Messor
"Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art."
- Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle

[SephirothsKiller]

While I can see moderation by the Pro-Side, it doesn't seem possible by the anti side. They feel their rights are being betrayed, but they only fight when confronted. The other option is to let themselves get rounded up...

[Powersurge]

"He who is not with me is against me." - Jesus, Matt 12:30


:oops:

Good point. Open to contextual and metaphoric interpretation of coure, but one can see where people might get the notion from. However, while I can't cite book or passage, I also recall something to the effect of...

"Yield unto Caesar that which is Caesar's..."

Moreover, did Christ not work to effect change within the Empire, rather than overthrow it?

Anyway, sign me up for bible school already!! I'm creeping myself out here, quoting Christian scipture and all.

[Powersurge]

While I can see moderation by the Pro-Side, it doesn't seem possible by the anti side. They feel their rights are being betrayed, but they only fight when confronted. The other option is to let themselves get rounded up...

Concessions have been made in regards to various superhumans... Dr.Strange, Emma's mutants. Stark even offered to dialogue with Cap, and with full tactical advantage in the pro-reg.s favour, and a trump card up his sleeve, at that.

But what I'm really talking about is some in-group member taking the time to critique their sides position, and then having the balls to stand beside both the pro's AND the cons.

It's not like one side is entirely right, and the other entirely wrong. It never is.

Come to think of it, it seems that the anti-reg.'s are those most singleminded about the righteousness of their cause. Entirely convinced that they have the right to do what no one else, in a position of public trust or otherwise, has to do. Afterall, everyone has a right to privacy. Some more than others. But no one has a right to anonimity.

[Le Messor]

I can't cite book or passage, I also recall something to the effect of... "Yield unto Caesar that which is Caesar's..."

Indeed.


Moreover, did Christ not work to effect change within the Empire, rather than overthrow it?

I'd go further, and say that He never worked to change the empire at all; though come to think of it, that's not quite what you said, is it?


Anyway, sign me up for bible school already!! I'm creeping myself out here, quoting Christian scipture and all.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

"But no one has a right to anonimity."

Who said that?

The superheroes do what nobody else can. They make enemies doing it, which gives them the need of anonymity.

When it all started, I was on Iron Man's side, at least as far as the SRA was worded; that anyone wanting to fight superhero battles had to register and train first. I have no problem with that. Why shouldn't they all join the police?

But when he started taking out people--Luke Cage--who were doing nothing but watching TV, he lost me. He suddenly was trying to go after anyone who had powers, not just people who used them in a violent / law enforcement context.

- Le Messor
"What's so civil about war anyway?"
- Guns 'n' Roses

[Transmetropolitan]

To say nothing of guys like Cap and Daredevil, whose "powers" consist of being expert martial artists (Daredevil's power merely compensates for his blindness).

So who's next, you go and register the guys in the UFC?

[Powersurge]

Yeah. I too was fine with registering those that want to serve the public. They should have to register. Law Enforcement officers also place themselves in dangerous situations, with dangerous people whose reach often extends well beyond any prison they might be placed in.

And such officers have no super-powers.

Such people do have a heightened need for privacy, but not a right to complete anonimity. So, it's not really a privacy issue at all.

Heck, I can't even get a video store membership without disclosing personal information, but that is done with the assurance that my right to privacy shall be respected.

Of course, forcing non-combatants and those that do not want to use their powers for the public good into mandatory service is just plain wrong.

I still side with the Pro-Reg.s, but when a fellow over on the Classic Marvel RPG site asked what my character, Powersurge, would do if faced with the issues at hand, I said that he would side with the best interest of the people. He would uphold the law, he would oppose lawbreakers, friend or foe, and he would take down offenders with due leniance and discretion. He would work from within to change unwise particulars of the SRA, and he would neither engage in nor condone the heavy-handedness we see going down in CW. If push came to shove, he would follow his conscience, exercise civil disobedience, and take the consequences on the chin, like a man.

Of course, Powersurge's character and destiny have been shaped in no small way by the many, many people he inadvertently killed when his mutant powers first manifested. It drove him to escape the Epsilons that came a-hunting for him soon after the tragedy in favour of learning to control his powers at Xavier's School. It drove him to leave X-Men, and a slowly, but surely blossoming relationship with Rogue, when offered a position on the Protectors... where he was literally placed under a microscope and fully identified and quantified. And it ultimately drove him to turn himself into the Canadian authorities to account for the incident.

Took'im long enough to come around, mind you, but come around he did.

[Powersurge]

To say nothing of guys like Cap and Daredevil, whose "powers" consist of being expert martial artists (Daredevil's power merely compensates for his blindness).

So who's next, you go and register the guys in the UFC?

Point taken.

Cap however is a little beyond human, in that his pysichal limits defy the realities of height, weight and build. He has the stamina of a 125 lb. marathon runner, the agility of a 100 lb gymnast, the speed of a 185 lb sprinter, and the strength of a 300 lb. power-lifter. Well, the powerlifter is actually faster over the first 30 metres, but thats neither here nor there.

So yeah, Cap is a bit of a freak-o-nature.

But hey, at least the Pro-Reg.s haven't been busting down the door of Ma-and-Pa-Mutie-doin-nothin-but-nringing-home-the-bacon-and-minding-the-kids. Not yet anyway. So far they have been focusing on the flagrant vigilantes.

[Transmetropolitan]

But hey, at least the Pro-Reg.s haven't been busting down the door of Ma-and-Pa-Mutie-doin-nothin-but-nringing-home-the-bacon-and-minding-the-kids. Not yet anyway. So far they have been focusing on the flagrant vigilantes.

Hey, since M-day, there's only a fraction of those types left WORLDWIDE.

Most of them with fan-bases.

And Jessica Jones, who has powers but hates using them, WAS leaned on to register.

[DelBubs]

To say nothing of guys like Cap and Daredevil, whose "powers" consist of being expert martial artists (Daredevil's power merely compensates for his blindness).

So who's next, you go and register the guys in the UFC?

Point taken.

Cap however is a little beyond human, in that his pysichal limits defy the realities of height, weight and build. He has the stamina of a 125 lb. marathon runner, the agility of a 100 lb gymnast, the speed of a 185 lb sprinter, and the strength of a 300 lb. power-lifter. Well, the powerlifter is actually faster over the first 30 metres, but thats neither here nor there.

So yeah, Cap is a bit of a freak-o-nature.

But hey, at least the Pro-Reg.s haven't been busting down the door of Ma-and-Pa-Mutie-doin-nothin-but-nringing-home-the-bacon-and-minding-the-kids. Not yet anyway. So far they have been focusing on the flagrant vigilantes.
I know Cage isn't a mutant, but when the Cape Killers went in couldn't he have been theoretically putting his kid to bed. He may have powers and Stark may have known he wasn't going to register, but sending in the boys at 00:01 seems a little Gestapo like IMHO. Trying to arrest Cage cos he may have been about to do something is a little to reminiscent of Britains old 'Sus' law.

Now we have Reed and Stark playing God and creating clones etc. With the fifty state initiative and the super army being put together by the Thunderbolts, a super powered police state with Stark as it's head can only be just around the corner :-)

**Tony Stark** for President ?

[Powersurge]

I wasn't aware of the Luke Cage thing until it was mentioned here last night, but yeah, it is a good exampe of SRA heavy-handedness.

I still think that a person could do more good working within their chosen alliegences, acting as the conscience of their side and nudging it ever more towards the center, rather than flip-flopping the moment they clue into the fact that their side isn't 100% in the right.

Afterall, "Me and mine aren't perfect?!?!" Sheesh. What a revelation!! And guess what, they and theirs aren't perfect either. Wow, eh? So, what, is everyone going to be flip-flopping back and forth, from one extremist pov to the other, every time these givens are "astoundingly" perceived?

Pick a side, and work with it... with both loyalty and conscience.

[Le Messor]

I wasn't aware of the Luke Cage thing until it was mentioned here last night, but yeah, it is a good exampe of SRA heavy-handedness. Pick a side, and work with it... with both loyalty and conscience.

I don't know from the superheroes, but I switched sides when I figured out what 'my' side really was. I'd always said I supported rego as long as it was about people who want to fight superhero battles, and not about rounding up powered people.

Then, it turned out it was the latter. So, I 'switched'.

- Le Messor
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- Arthur C. Clarke

[SephirothsKiller]

Exactly.

At this point, I'm pretty sure galactus would attack, and Iron Man would ignore him in favour of putting the beatdown on the LA lakers for being "superhumanly tall."

[Guardian]

**Tony Stark** for President ?

[-X

[Guardian]

Exactly.

At this point, I'm pretty sure galactus would attack, and Iron Man would ignore him in favour of putting the beatdown on the LA lakers for being "superhumanly tall."

:lol:

[Powersurge]

Maybe he would. But only because what could've been the voice of conscience has chosen war, betrayal, and adversarialism over diplomacy, loyalty and mitigation.

Strange that Sue Richards wasn't arrested on the spot for aiding and abetting (sp?).

Conscience has a definite role to play. It's sad that many think that role is to instigate going turncoat, and abandoning the situation to extremist rule, as opposed to finding a way to mediate and bring friends and allies back together.

Also, like I recently mentioned under the Iron Jerk thread, Stark is aware of many future Earth's that, in one way or another, witnessed various nightmare scenarios... leading to the destruction of a multitude of superbeings, the oppression of the human race by superbeings, the conquest of a factionalized Earth by aliens. Not one possible future. Many.

[Powersurge]

One might also consdier what Cap and his faction are promoting, by implication.

The rookie shannanigans of the New Warriors resulting in the deaths of 100's... many children.

The serial executions, and complete disregard of due process, perfrmed by the likes of the Punisher.

The mass murders that logic alone dictates the Hulk has been responsible for over the years.

In fact, the K.K.K. style lynchings of anyone that some self-righeous person, or group, deems acceptable for the betterment of society.

Can Cap give us his personal guaruntee that everyone that puts on a mask and engages in vigilanteism is well-intnetion and has all the facts necessary to make the kinds of judgements that they are making?

[DelBubs]

If the option had been to sign the registration, but still be able to retire from super human activity (Like Firetsar) without being coerced into working for the gov I would prolly have agreed with it. It's the enforced conscription I have a problem with.

As has been shown in recent Wolverine issues can we be totally sure that 'The New Warriors' are totally responsible **MAJOR SPOILER :?: ** if 'Damage Control' has been enhancing super humans to maximise battle damage, thus enabling them to puch up their bills, then surely they are as much to blame as 'The New Warriors'?

To drag this back towards Omega a little. Wouldn't S.H.E.I.L.D be able to bring pressure to bear on the Canadian gov if OF is government sanctioned... ?

[SephirothsKiller]

I don't know if SHIELD has alot of influence in those matters. Certainly under Harper the Canadian government would immediately move to mimic the States, which would then cause a widespread division as Ex: Quebec/The Urban Maritimes/Toronto/Half of Vancouver/ opposed it and Alberta/the country folk/the other half of Vancouver/A lot of BC/ supported it.

Though superhuman wise the government has always done its own thing, and Canada already did have a much more moderate registration act (or was it much more evil? Can't remember...) in place.

[Powersurge]

I'd imagine that blame can be portioned out. How about the network running the reality show? The viewers?

But really, how often in life do we encounter truly black-and-white situations? Things that, with full knoweldge, we are 100% in agreement or disagreement with?

I don't agree 100% with the Pro-Reg. side anymore than I 100% disagree with the Anti-Reg. side. I lean toward Pro-Reg., that is where my loyalities lie, but I don't think it is perfect and I would not suffer it's imperfections apathetically.

As for OF and SHIELD; IF OF is sanctioned by the Canadian governement I could see a big stink resulting between Canada and the US. It's happened over smaller issues.

SHIELD is so convoluted however, that I can't keep trak of whether they're US or UN anymore.

[RolandT]

SHIELD is UN sanctioned but the U.S. takes over running it a lot with Maria Hill, bending SHIELD towards U.S. policy enforcement.

[SephirothsKiller]

But U.N. sanctioned doesn't necessarily mean U.N. run, it can just mean U.N. approved. For instance, the war in Afghanistan was U.N. sanctioned, but was originally (less so now,) run entirely by the U.S., and any country that joined officially joined under the umbrella of whatever happy sounding slogan Bush decided to name his mission.

[Mokole]

SHIELD is UN sanctioned, but the thing about Maria Hill is that the U.S. pushed for her, as other countries did, to distance SHIELD from Fury. Not to say that SHIELD is a U.S. lapdog in Civil War, but remember Tieri's Weapon X? He had Wolverine ask Fury why SHIELD won't step into Weapon X and Fury tells him that Weapon X has the President's favour and SHIELD can't touch them.

Kind of still thinking Guardian will show up in either Civil War #5 or the next Civil War: Frontline, or the one after the next Frontline. Maybe Omega Flight might show up in one of those three issues, somehow, but that's a stretch. Guardian and Talisman as AF reps is more likely. 8)

[varo]

i asked oeming over at his forums. maybe you guys can chime in and pressure him a little.

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=87177

[sengsterooney]

Well, while I am stoked that there will be a new title rising from the ashes of AF with Talisman in it no less... I'm still very sad that Puck is dead. And Heather... and Sasquatch... - for me, they were the embodiment of the original spirit of AF, and marks the passing of a very brief era of greatness.

Just out of curiosity also - how many 'Spider women' are there in the MU? I noticed that there is one in the New Avengers (Jessica Drew?), and that there was one in some previous Avengers title (Julia Carpentar?), and there was a Spider Girl at some point in the MU too... I wonder which Spider woman this is, or if it's a completely new one?

[Adam]

Just out of curiosity also - how many 'Spider women' are there in the MU? I noticed that there is one in the New Avengers (Jessica Drew?), and that there was one in some previous Avengers title (Julia Carpentar?), and there was a Spider Girl at some point in the MU too... I wonder which Spider woman this is, or if it's a completely new one?

The Spider-Woman in New Avengers is Jessica Drew.

The one we assume is in Omega Flight is Julia Carpenter, who goes by Arachne now.

There was another, Mattie Franklin, created a few years ago. She's going to be in the upcoming Runaways spinoff Loners (or at least someone in a similar costume will be).

[DelBubs]

Well, while I am stoked that there will be a new title rising from the ashes of AF with Talisman in it no less... I'm still very sad that Puck is dead. And Heather... and Sasquatch... - for me, they were the embodiment of the original spirit of AF, and marks the passing of a very brief era of greatness.

Hiya Seng, long time no hear. I'm sure somewhere Mike Oeming has mentioned that at least three old characters will be in and around Omega, so I wouldn't mourn anyone yet. After all this is Marvel, where dead is really dead :-)

[Adam]

Seng as in Seng Mah? If so it's great to see you around. I remember practically living on Net Alpha for a time :)

[Inkdaub]

From the pic I get...Talisman, Arachne, Guardian, US Agent and Beta Ray Bill. I like all of these characters except US Agent.

[DelBubs]

From the pic I get...Talisman, Arachne, Guardian, US Agent and Beta Ray Bill. I like all of these characters except US Agent.
I think the general consensus is that Beta Ray Bill and US Agent are definates, and Arachne almost definate. Talisman is probable, although some figure it could be Snowbird. The only one that still hasn't be decided is Guardian, mainly cos we're a suspicious lot and things are never what they seem with Marvel :-)

As an aside, welcome to the boards Inkdaub, beware of Puddings and other flying deserts :-)

[RolandT]

From the pic I get...Talisman, Arachne, Guardian, US Agent and Beta Ray Bill. I like all of these characters except US Agent.
I think the general consensus is that Beta Ray Bill and US Agent are definates, and Arachne almost definate. Talisman is probable, although some figure it could be Snowbird. The only one that still hasn't be decided is Guardian, mainly cos we're a suspicious lot and things are never what they seem with Marvel :-)

As an aside, welcome to the boards Inkdaub, beware of Puddings and other flying deserts :-)

Mmmm, cake!

I can't see how it isn't Guardian unless the picture itself is fake.

[Legerd]

I can't see how it isn't Guardian unless the picture itself is fake.

I think DB means it may not be Mac as Guardian as he may have a slight case of death. Of course he's gotten over that particular malady before so...



As an aside, welcome to the boards Inkdaub, beware of Puddings and other flying deserts :-)

Yeah, welcome to Alpha Waves Inkdaub!

[Guardian]

From the pic I get...Talisman, Arachne, Guardian, US Agent and Beta Ray Bill. I like all of these characters except US Agent.

Is there a reason you don't like U.S. Agent? Just curious. I always liked his complex character. Hopefully with this new series he'll become a respected and great member of the Marvel U. Hopefully he'll (in time) be able to step out of the shadow of ole' Cap.

[Powersurge]

I'm not particularly fond of USAgent, but think that he will work in this series.

Remember one of the primary reasons for inclusion within the team is for purposes of cultural contrast... like the Canadian mountie in Due South.

His prescence will make for intersting reading, I think.

[sengsterooney]

Oui, c'est moi! I haven't been Alphaing for years now though I have been keeping abreast of news via this forum. From what articles/interviews I have read re: Oeming, Bendis and Omega Flight, it seems pretty much consensus that the Alpha Team shown in New Avengers #16 was wiped out. For good. Not sure how one of them will return to the fold (I hope it's Puck) but this Omega Flight concept has piqued my curiosity enough for me to perhaps return to the fold when it is released next year.

Shall await further tid bits with bated breath.

BTW: Is 'Adam' - Adam Bourret of the 'New Flight' fame?

[Legerd]

I have read re: Oeming, Bendis and Omega Flight, it seems pretty much consensus that the Alpha Team shown in New Avengers #16 was wiped out. For good. Not sure how one of them will return to the fold (I hope it's Puck) but this Omega Flight concept has piqued my curiosity enough for me to perhaps return to the fold when it is released next year.

It would be a shame if Puck didn't show up at some point in OF. If the team is all about the mystical then he would be someone you wanted around to watch your back. Hey Mike O, any chance of Puck somehow surviving to join OF in the future? With his background he would be a perfect fit for the group.

[DelBubs]

A little bit more (http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays16.html).
==============================
NRAMA: Scratchy - Will Omega Flight appear as a group in "Civil War" or are tie-in sort of appearances the idea? Will Alpha Flight appear instead, whatever AF is now (besides Omega Flight)?

JQ: No, Omega Flight does not appear within Civil War proper.

But the seeds of Omega flight are planted quite clearly in Choosing Sides.

Oh, snap, I did it again, I went old school on your behind with the callback plug!

===============================

[Mokole]

Ah, you beat me to it. So Omega Flight will get started from Civil War, and that will be the initial, and only initial, start for the team, like past the first arc it won't matter spit. So "choosing Sides" is worth watching for, with US Agent's reasons for joining the Flight being front and center, I guess. Maybe even other central characters will be in it. 8)

[Canucklehead]

So "choosing Sides" is worth watching for, with US Agent's reasons for joining the Flight being front and center, I guess. Maybe even other central characters will be in it. 8)

Howard the Duck? Damn, I wish Omega made an appearance during CW. The sales for OF #1 would have seen a great increase if it had been so. I'm not sure how many people will pick up the "Choosing Sides", but hopefully it is many and they are intrigued by the planted Omega "seeds".

[HappyCanuck]

I just thought of something -- and this has no bearing on any topic within this or any other thread -- but does this mean that, with the launch of Omega Flight, we're going to have to change the name of the Forum to 'Omega Waves'?? :shock: :? :shock: :?

{Addendum} Note to self: DON'T MAKE POSTS AFTER BEING AWAKE FOR 20+ HOURS!!!

[Phil]

No :P

Though I can add OF to the appearance forum :D

[Ben]

I just thought of something -- and this has no bearing on any topic within this or any other thread -- but does this mean that, with the launch of Omega Flight, we're going to have to change the name of the Forum to 'Omega Waves'?? :shock: :? :shock: :?

{Addendum} Note to self: DON'T MAKE POSTS AFTER BEING AWAKE FOR 20+ HOURS!!!

If Omega Flight is around in 30 years time I might consider it ;)

Ben