Alpha Flight Villains

[Oeming]

Okay, who are your favorite and why? Lets here it from the fans.
M!

[Mokole]

Dreamqueen, because of her design, her powers, her desire to remake 616 reality and how hard she is to stop. Mystic ability and all!

The Master, because he had a vision and was powerful enough to enact it, though he never got why people didn't want 'utopia' as he saw it.

And for my third, the Great Beasts, interesting characters, always trying to win, one goal in mind, tough in every way; you can't beat them, you have to outsmart them.

[MistressMerr]

The Dreamqueen, no competition. One of the few good things about Mantlo's run. Freaky powerful, awesome character design, just overall very cool.

I dug the Master a lot too, just because he's THE Alpha Flight villain. He's their Magneto, their Kang, he needs his props.

[-K-M-]

Master as he is such a super genius and underated:
http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Master

Great Beasts, by far one of the coolest villians. It should be a non-jobbing Great Beasts though:
http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Great_Beasts

Dreamqueen..nuff said:
http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Dreamqueen

[maniac mike]

I'd like to see a rematch with China Force, a MAJOR revamp of the second version of Omega Flight (Simon Furman creations), and to bring back Llan the Sorcerer.

MM

[-K-M-]

I'd like to see a rematch with China Force, a MAJOR revamp of the second version of Omega Flight (Simon Furman creations), and to bring back Llan the Sorcerer.

MM

Yes, bring back Llan. Guy was so uberly evil and so powerful it was scary. Even made Dr.Strange look like a baby and yet he was still bound by rules.

[DelBubs]

Dreamqueen : My all time favourite AF Villian. Her aims are clearly laid out and she is powerful enough to take on any type of super hero.

Somthing Flight : Alpha took on former Betans in the original Omega, fought against Epsilons and Gamma's, so the new Omega need a somthing Flight to go up against. Tradition can only be a good thing.

The Master : I don't care that he went up against H4H etc, he is Alpha's arch nemesis, has a rich history and has that Dr Doom quality about him.

[syvalois]

Yes, Dreamqueen I like her, but the last time we saw her it felt forced and I did not like the story. Like, everything that had be be done witrh her was done. I don't know.

Jaxxon and Delphine Courtney, mostly Delphine with her manipulationof omega Flight and MAc fake resurection.

[varo]

the master: alpha's doctor doom.

dreamqueen: cool supernatural villian

the great beasts: if the theme for this series is going to be supernatural, the above 2 can't be beat.

omega flight: so does this mean if the opposite shows up they'll be fighting.......alpha flight?

[DelBubs]

How could I forget Captain Crozier (http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Pestilence).

[Ahab]

Seems that the majority of us have the same favorites:

1. The Master - This guy has potential and some past storylines showed it, but there still is a lot more that could be done with him to elevate his threat level - plus anyone that could ensure that Marrina finally returns is a favorite of mine...

2. An Opposing Flight - For every Alpha there has to be an Omega - and the nice thing about this team is that the membership can always be different, just like the Frightful Four.

3. The Dream Queen - Fantastic design, tons of potential and SCARY.

4. The Great Beasts - When they were written to be as powerful as they truly are, the stories were great and it made the reader wonder how Alpha was going to win.

[Adam]

I think the Great Beasts were always the best Alpha villains. They added a whole layer of mythology to the franchise in that there was a history between them and the Northern gods form which Snowbird hailed. The idea that their gateway to the world just happened to be in Northern Canada gave Alpha a nice sense of purpose and a reason why they needed to exist.

The reveal that Sasquatch was really inhabiting a form of one of the beasts helped hammer home that weird mix of science and magic that set Alpha apart from other Marvel books.

---

I also really, really loved the Brass Bishop storyline from Steve Seagle's volume 2 storyline. I actually own some art from those issues.

----

Llan the Sorcerer suffered from some really inconsistent art at the time, but there's a good concept buried in there somewhere.

----

The Department H as a black ops story has been played out by this point, but there are characters I'd like to see some follow up on like Huxley from the end of Vol 2.

[Mokole]

I always found Dreamqueen and the Master (with team) to be the best enemies. Now after M-Day how about The Master and the Hardliners, since many of the Master's sycophants were techs already (Tech-Noir, Strongarm, Brain Drain...).

Llan is good too, but fighting teams and powerful individuals... :D

[Black Mamba]

I think Northstar and Aurora would make an interesting villain duo for the team. I can easily see them both wanting some degree of revenge against Canada and the Department for all which has transpired. Their combination of Flash-like speed and photonic abilities can make them quite formitable - far more formitable then what was shown in Wolverine.

If Talisman is going to be on the team then I would like to see some real mystic heavyweights brought in as well. There are only so many Inuit gods and demons we care to deal with. Bring in a few of Dr. Strange's villains to make a real mystic impact. Maybe Mephisto is keeping an eye on Talisman or Dormammu is looking to rise from the ashes.

All the threats should not just be Canadian. It is time to make OF part of the Marvel Universe. That does not mean I want to see the team globe-hopping but I can really see a lot of US villains jumping over the border for what seems like, to them, some "easy" crimes.

[RolandT]

Hi everyone! With Omega Flight coming, I can't resist anymore!

former Alphans would be a good idea to turn into Omega villains, like the Twins, Madison and his wife Lil, Persuasion with Pathway and Goblyn, Nemesis and Witchfire.

I always liked tough opponents who had an agenda, not just power or money or evil. Dreamqueen, Master, 'Omega Flight' fit the bill. Like lots say, Alpha Flight has lots of good enemies so how can Omega Flight not?

Good luck all, nice board here!

[syvalois]

How could I forget Captain Crozier (http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Pestilence).

Ah, Pestilence! Nice idea, wrong execution. And at the time I read that I had no clue it was link to a true story. Well, I would have never knew if Alphawaves never been in my life.

[mreeez]

1. Jaxon and Delphine Courtney (the villains that hooked me on AF)

2. Bedlam and the Derangers (too bad they were killed of quick)

3. The Master (like someone said, Alpha Flight's own Doctor Doom of sorts)

[SasqFan]

I thought Bedlam was great. I had hoped he would become part of the rogues gallery but was killed almost as soon as he appeared. He was great because he went back to Dept H and built upon that backstory which had proven problematic all along with gov't-sanctioned, gov't-independent, Wolverine going AWOL (to join the new X-Men in Giant Sized 1), Beta-Gamma recruits forming Omega Flight... to say Dept H was a troubled experiment is an understatement! It is/was a good source of back story / conflict.

The Master was good during the Byrne run (v. Doc Doom) but I did not like later appearances in v1. They were more traditional foes. Omega Flight, the first time around was fantastic. Later incarnations went back to that well far too often and without the intrinsic grudges of the original line up, the tension just wasn't there. With those characters dead (Box / Jaxon, Courtney) or turned heroes (Lil, Wild Child) or whatever... Smart Alec, Flashback, it's best to let that lay fallow. You're fortunate since the new book takes that title out of the proverbial quiver of Alpha Flight cliches.

Pestilence was great as well because, like the Great Beasts, the character tapped into the mysticism which went back to issue 1. Like the Master (target Marina), he was after a particular member of Alpha (Snowbird) for his purposes. Jaxon was after Mac. The Omega (Bochs-Lionel Jefferies) story works on that level but to a lesser degree. I thought Roger Bochs deserved better than that ending.

Though I own a Lee-Milgrom original art piece from that story arc I did not like the Dream Queen, China Force and all that perhaps because it didn't seem to be a natural fit for Canadian heroes. This wasn't like Korean-war vet Tony Stark having the Mandarin as an arch villain. It seemed out of left field. I was glad to see that gone and Llan too (maybe it was the art--poor John Calimee, never gets a break).

I stayed with v1 through 120 or so, read two issues of v2 and all of v3. The other villains didn't really register any passion except the Sentinels that came to Canada. You'd think the Canadian gov't would have wanted something like that given how much of Dept. H's subjects were problems.

What does not work for AF is any more attempts at reviving 'Mac' Hudson. He died in NYC, v1, issue 12. End of story for me. Heather was always the real leader, not Mac.

Aside: If/when Sasquatch returns, please get his look right. So many have drawn him as if he had horns and neglect his more ape-like proportions (shorter legs, how he moves--see the Byrne run).

Inter-personal conflict worked well with the book. They weren't just 'true believers' like Cap and your typical classic Avengers team or even the FF (which early had conflict with Johnny & Ben). Some adventure-types like Sasquatch and Puck, some more grudging heroes like Northstar and (in my view) Mac Hudson.

Byrne's run, as he described it recently, was more a series of individual books under the banner of Alpha Flight than a team book. You'd see what Puck is doing this month, sometimes references to off screen adventures (Brass Bishop Affair) and the book wound and rotated through and now and again the characters crossed paths but rarely together as a group. Despite conflicts they'd come together, a bit like a family, in times of great need e.g. battle Great Beasts, Omega Flight.

OK, I've said too much. :twisted:

[Phil]

The Master instantly springs to mind... unclear as to whether he's dead or not after Busiek's Avengers run though...

Dreamqueen for sure.

I like Wendigo as a character, but would want to see something different involving him/it for once.

The Great Beasts, as above.

I liked the concept(if not the execution) of Loki messing with AF, and with BRB involved that could work in OF.

[Powersurge]

One of my major problems with AF was that none of the villains did it for me... with the exception of Jaxon and his associates.

I liked also liked vol.2's Epsilon troopers. And of course Department H, though I think that rather than being overtly immoral through and through, they should be more like any other aspect of governement... ambiguous, trying to be or at least appear benevolent, but with certain programs and sub-departments that are consciously and secretly engaging in immoral activities. You know, the good ol' "their right hand doesn't know what their left hand is doing" scenario.

I agree that we should also see some familiar Marvel villains. CW is just as likely to force villains across the border as it is heroes afterall... always a glimmering prospect even before CW. What, with the US concentration of heroes and hi-tech agencies, and Canada's seeming lack.

[Legerd]

The Master, for me, is (was) hands down Alpha's arch-nemesis. If you do bring him back make him more aggressive. He was always a big talker with lots of power and resources, but he never did anything much beyond expounding what his plans were.

The Wendigo has never been in an AF book and yet is a major threat that would involve Shaman.

Bring back Smart Alec! You can say he's been lost in the other dimensions within Shaman's pouch until his consciouness found a new body. He would be a great archenemy for Talisman.

A.I.M. and Modok were on a search for mystical characters when they attacked AF last time. Being that OF is all about the mystical would make A.I.M. a perfect opponent.

The same could be said about Llan the Sorceror, the Great Beasts and the Dream Queen.

Maybe Dormamu?

[DelBubs]

Bring back Smart Alec! You can say he's been lost in the other dimensions within Shaman's pouch until his consciouness found a new body. He would be a great archenemy for Talisman.

Problem with Alec is that his mind is totally gone, it went when he looked into Shamans pouch. I also believe his body was smashed when Pestilence Sas and Walter Box had their fight. I would love the idea of Shaman putting Alecs miniturised body back in his pouch after that incident and Pestilences wandering mind inhabiting it and repairing it over time. A miniturised Alec body controlled by Crozier would be a good foe for anyone :-)

[Legerd]

Bring back Smart Alec! You can say he's been lost in the other dimensions within Shaman's pouch until his consciouness found a new body. He would be a great archenemy for Talisman.

Problem with Alec is that his mind is totally gone, it went when he looked into Shamans pouch. I also believe his body was smashed when Pestilence Sas and Walter Box had their fight. I would love the idea of Shaman putting Alecs miniturised body back in his pouch after that incident and Pestilences wandering mind inhabiting it and repairing it over time. A miniturised Alec body controlled by Crozier would be a good foe for anyone :-)

And how many times has Mac died only to return? Smart Alec's mind being wiped could mean that it was lost within the pouch's many dimensions. It could then find a new body and return. I mean there has been weirder things in comics, right?

[DelBubs]

Now that would be a good villian, Alecs small body possessed by Alec and Pestilence. Two minds in one entity (Omega comes to mind). As you say weirder things do happen in comics :-)

[MattSD]

Hmm, lets see...
1. Pestilence...that would work with a mystical-supernatural slant going
2. Dreamqueen...I'd play up her connection to Nightmare
3. Deadly Earnest...talk about a messed up power

[maniac mike]

I think Weapon P.R.I.M.E. would make a good villain team too.

And Witchfire needs to embrace her dark side, AF needs more female villainany.

MM

[syvalois]

[quote=Legerd]Bring back Smart Alec! You can say he's been lost in the other dimensions within Shaman's pouch until his consciouness found a new body. He would be a great archenemy for Talisman.



And how many times has Mac died only to return?

And did that made a good story?


Personnaly, I don't think so. I would just avoid making the same mistake.

[Legerd]

[quote=Legerd]Bring back Smart Alec! You can say he's been lost in the other dimensions within Shaman's pouch until his consciouness found a new body. He would be a great archenemy for Talisman.



And how many times has Mac died only to return?

And did that made a good story?


Personnaly, I don't think so. I would just avoid making the same mistake.

A good story comes from a good writer. Mac's returns were ridiculously farfetched even for comics, Smart Alec could return in a logical manner and he could be an excellent villain. It all depends on the writer, IMHO.

[syvalois]

A good story comes from a good writer. Mac's returns were ridiculously farfetched even for comics, Smart Alec could return in a logical manner and he could be an excellent villain. It all depends on the writer, IMHO.

I agree, but sometimes it,s harder to write something good, but yes, if done right it could be good, but usually I like dead characters to stay dead.

[Legerd]

A good story comes from a good writer. Mac's returns were ridiculously farfetched even for comics, Smart Alec could return in a logical manner and he could be an excellent villain. It all depends on the writer, IMHO.

I agree, but sometimes it,s harder to write something good, but yes, if done right it could be good, but usually I like dead characters to stay dead.

Yeah, I wish death was more of sure thing in comics also. It ruins a noble and dramatic death when the hero just comes back (usually through a lame plot twist) a few months later like nothing happened. I just want to see Smart Alec used again, because he was killed before we ever got to really know him or see him in action.

[Canucklehead]

The Master is a must, but has to have a great storyline to bring him back to being a real threat. Ruthless. Alpha always needed more powerful villains. No more wax figures or robotic versions of other heroes.

I found a big problem is Flight over the years was that the heroes were so powerful that lazy writers had to get rid of some characters just to be able to give them a challenge. The Baubiers are like having two Rogues on your team. Sas was like the Hulk. Mac and Heather were like 2 Iron Men. Snowbird, semi goddess who could become any animal and had some powerful friends "upstairs". Shaman is like Doc Strange but can also pull anything out of his pouch. Box a huge robot that could become anything and the guy inside is basically a good guy Magneto. Persuasion just had to talk! They had all their bases covered! Try to think of a threat that couldn't be smashed, shot, flew into at his speeds, blinded by light, attached to the ground by vines, dropped a car on or simply told "um, don't do that".

One good thing about having such powerful heroes is that if any of them turned, they'd each be a great villains!

Poor Madison Jefferies has been brainwashed so many times. Just having him on your team is like having Magneto. He can maniuplate Metal, Plastic and Glass. His brother could manipulate human tissue(come on, he blew up. His power was to manipulate tissue, he could pull himself back together, right? :P ). Imagine the Jefferies brother working together. They'd be almost unstoppable. Yes I like Madison but if he's not going to be used as a hero he might as well be used as a villain!

Persuasion can manipulate people's actions with a single word. She was too powerful to be on the team cause she could just say "sleep" and the battle would be over. Imagine a villain using her to his advantage. What if Brass Bishop had her chained like that Dargil (whatever his name was) in V2. Use their friend against them in a powerful way.

Flex. For god's sake he's T-1000 from the Terminator! Completely unstoppable! He can turn into anything. You can shoot his arm and it'll grow back. He could hunt and chase people down and rip through anything in his path.

Witchfire is basically Pheonix meets Scarlet Witch. Nuff said.

You want a worthy team to fight against, look no further then former members. It worked in the original and would be a nice tribute if done correctly.

[Barnacle13]

I have to agree the Master is Alphas main nemesis. I love the idea of combining him with Jefferies. Imagine a brainwashed Jefferies with all of that Plodex tech at his disposal. That would be one damned formidable foe.

And since Omega Flight was always a major foe of Alpha Flight, why not turn it around on Omega at some point and make the Alphans a major foe of Omega Flight. This would work especially well if Mac weren't in the Guardian suit and came back for a little Vindication. Add Northstar, Aurora, Sasquatch, and Puck and you'd have a major throw down. May need Snowbird to battle Talisman. Could mark the turning point some of the hardcore Alpha fans are looking for.

And if we're talking about consciencious objectors here, there should be an ongoing battle with the other side. Iron Man and his crew should come to serve warrants. Omega could throw them back in their faces and let them know their warrants aren't any good in Canada!

[Radiostorm]

Although they were a bit before my time, I really dig the Great Beasts. They are just plain scary.

[kozzi24]

I'd like to see a rematch with China Force, a MAJOR revamp of the second version of Omega Flight (Simon Furman creations), and to bring back Llan the Sorcerer.

MM
I found Furman's Flight version to be too derivative: Miss Mass = Pink Pearl, Bile = Pestilence, etc.

My top five:

Dreamqueen
Pestilence
The Master
Great Beasts
Witchfire...seems natural progression for the character's origin.

I would like to see Nemesis in an adversarial role.

Delphine Courtney and Jaxxon were wonderful for their time, but I think returning these characters after so long brings up Alpha Flight's baggage issues. In a way they and Deadly Earnest better stand as examples that when Alpha dealt with a villain, those villains STAYED dealt with.

[darc_light]

Wildchild! So dangerous yet so tragic, you want to comfort him even though he might tear you to pieces and eat you afterwards... :cry:

Wyre, but only if they have him use his powers instead of his guns, he's an awesome fighter with unique and wonderful abilities 8) , he doesn't need to go Cable on people.... :roll:
He's also a tragic villain, he's done so many terrible things, but honestly believed he was doing what was best for everyone involved, even though it was destroying him... :cry:
And, since Kyle won't kill Valerie Cooper, maybe Wyre could. That wretched, self serving little witch, I HATE her! :evil: :twisted: Let Mephisto have 'er!

[syvalois]

I found Furman's Flight version to be too derivative: Miss Mass = Pink Pearl, Bile = Pestilence, etc.

I just found them boring, like a lot of stuff done in AF at that time.





Delphine Courtney and Jaxxon were wonderful for their time, but I think returning these characters after so long brings up Alpha Flight's baggage issues. In a way they and Deadly Earnest better stand as examples that when Alpha dealt with a villain, those villains STAYED dealt with.

I agree with you on this.

[darc_light]

By the way, there's a new profile for Jerry Jaxon at the Appendix
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/jaxonjerryaf.htm

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Let me state up-front that I like it when AF's villains are dealt with and stay dealt with, like Deadly Ernest in V1#8(?), with the red-headed daughter [Danielle Belmonde] being carted off to jail. Ernest's return by Mantlo, just to get chopped up again and Nemesis turning to dust, is...stupid.

The computer-whiz who injected that virus in the Hudnall/Haynes' fill-in was a formidible foe, though I'm hard-pressed to see how he survived.

Trying to think of some less oft-stated favorites, but I'm drawing a blank.

[Ben]

I'd love to see a new vailain team composed of Northstar, Aurora, Madison Jeffries, and Wild Child, maybe even with Diamond Lil in there for good measure, there to keep an eye on her hubbie, but covertly trying to get Omega to help her fix his scramble brain.

Ben

[-K-M-]

If you bring back the Great Beasts, have them portrayed as a true powerhouse. Such as the Exiles protrayed Tanaraq, or how the Gods of the Arctic easily beat a person who even Dr.Strange was unsure in Wolverine #171 (issue # may be off) and the Great Beasts are said to be equal with them.

Tanaraq (Exiles):
http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Tanaraq_%28Exiles%29

Mauvais:
http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Mauvais

[Northcott]

An interesting twist would be to actually draw on elements of native mythology instead of just making stuff up on the fly. Try to find reference to any of the Great Beasts, or pretty much any of the supposed Inuit lore behind Snowbird, and you come up empty-handed. Only the most vague of associations.

Some more respectful, in-depth useage -- with a little tweak for comic books -- could be great. Native mythology is a far cry from being all hearts and flowers. Some of the old spirits are scary as Hell, and none too friendly to mortals.

We're a high-tech nation. Smart Alec returning has some weight behind it. He wasn't killed in that initial encounter, after all. He was always damned lame compared to the others. A little more "oomph" to that villain would go a long way.

The Master is another example of unused potential. For a Machiavellian plot in the north, it has to be that megalomaniac.

Calibre was a rotten, one-shot villain who had a second fifteen minutes of fame. He might be amusing to use as a lackey for a thinking villian, but again -- how much history are you looking to explore?

The Wendigo's almost a must. Hulk-like power. Propensity for devouring human beings. He's really never been portrayed as something absolutely terrifying. Something supernaturally strong that skulks through the woods, preying on those who travel alone. There's some serious horror chops there.

Best of luck with the series. While there's great history to draw on, there's a lot of room to craft new tales and explore new directions. From the viking settlement uncovered at L'anse aux Meadows to the countless tales of natives and newcomers alike, there's a rich trove of supernatural lore to mine if you feel like taking things in that direction.

[Powersurge]

Hmmm. While never a villian that AF faced, Graviton is a Canadian. And one that has given the Avengers a run for their money.

[Powersurge]

An interesting twist would be to actually draw on elements of native mythology instead of just making stuff up on the fly. Try to find reference to any of the Great Beasts, or pretty much any of the supposed Inuit lore behind Snowbird, and you come up empty-handed. Only the most vague of associations.

Some more respectful, in-depth useage -- with a little tweak for comic books -- could be great. Native mythology is a far cry from being all hearts and flowers. Some of the old spirits are scary as Hell, and none too friendly to mortals.

Here is a link to Wikipedia's treatment of Inuit myth. It includes a long list of various spirits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_mythology

[DelBubs]

I wouldn't mind seeing the Wrecking Crew put in another appearence. I guess they have some tenuous connection to Beta Ray Bill and Loki and Loki would still seem to have a score to settle.

[Powersurge]

I wouldn't mind seeing the Wrecking Crew put in another appearence. I guess they have some tenuous connection to Beta Ray Bill and Loki and Loki would still seem to have a score to settle.

Does the entire crew have their power back, or is it still all combined in the Wrecker himself?

[Le Messor]

The thing with Alpha villains, the thing you have to remember, is that almost all of them have real personal ties to the team.
Not tacked-on retcon ties (like Apocalypse, Sinister, and every other 90's X-Men villain), but actuall ties to the origin (like Magneto).

Jaxon caused Mac's 'defection' (from AmCan to the government). Omega were once their apprentici.
The Master was part of Marrina's experiment.
Gilded Lily was an aunt of Sasquatch.
etc...

As to favourites:
The DreamQueen! Looks by the Joker, power and attitude by Freddy Krueger... Gotta love her!
The Master and the Great Beasts, of course.

Gilded Lily is underused.

I like Wendigo, but one of the things I like is that he's a major AF villain, somebody they've faced time and time again, but he's never appeared in their title.

- Le Messor
"Ambition is like a frog sitting on a Venus Flytrap. The flytrap can bite and bite, but it won't bother the frog because it only has tiny little plant teeth. But some other stuff could happen, and it would be like ambition."
- Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey

[bigbloo]

My favorite AF villain of all time is Gilded Lily. *shiver* Cool name. Great back story. Incredible visual. Too bad she's dead. But wait, this is Marvel for chrissakes! No one is really really dead.

:D

Of course i liked all the AF villains. Even the ones in vol 2 and 3.

[darc_light]

There's a new Alpha-related bio up at the Appendix, Chinook

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/chinookaf.htm

[Tawmis]

The Master: He, to me is the "Magneto" for Alpha Flight. He's the one foe who is intelligent and powerful - and sometimes, when well written - like Magneto - he almost sounds rational!

DreamQueen - While I hated most of Mantalo's run - the creation of Dreamqueen was pricely. And on top of that, who ever did the concept art for her did an amazing job. All around, visually, and power wise, a great, great character.

The Great Beasts: I liked their early appearances, but over all, seem very limited. But their early pop ups were pretty cool.

Now the one thing I have to disagree with - people stating Llan was a favorite villain!? I just don't see it. He seemed poorly written, and he looked like a complete... well, ... like a kid designed the concept. Llan, to me was one of Alpha's WORSE villains... (it just look like they wanted to have a lot of death and decay and murder...) I guess the way he was written... I just never got into Llan... couldn't believe he was as powerful as he was... You get those characters, that when they appear you know it's trouble (Magneto, Kang, etc) - Llan... never did it for me.

[Tawmis]

I wouldn't mind seeing the Wrecking Crew put in another appearence. I guess they have some tenuous connection to Beta Ray Bill and Loki and Loki would still seem to have a score to settle.

Does the entire crew have their power back, or is it still all combined in the Wrecker himself?

I believe his crew has it again... because Thunderball (during a VERY bad storyline in Avengers) was attacking Captain America (while he was defending a woman who would go on to become Captain Britian before adopting yet another name) - and Thunderball was citing Shakespear... *shakes head*

Who lets some of these people write these books!?!?

[kozzi24]

Calibre was a rotten, one-shot villain who had a second fifteen minutes of fame. He might be amusing to use as a lackey for a thinking villian, but again -- how much history are you looking to explore?


Calibre has appeared three times. The last was in the Vol 1 Brass Bishop story.

The first two appearances were both harbingers to Delphine Courtney's Omega Flight, and to me, that indicates there's a lot that can be done with the character. Who was he, and where did his armer come from? Were the timing of his appearances coincidence, or does he have ties to Delphine or Jaxxon? I see a lot of potential in the character, particularly if his armor originates from Hudson's creations.

[Northcott]

Calibre has appeared three times. The last was in the Vol 1 Brass Bishop story.

The first two appearances were both harbingers to Delphine Courtney's Omega Flight, and to me, that indicates there's a lot that can be done with the character. Who was he, and where did his armer come from? Were the timing of his appearances coincidence, or does he have ties to Delphine or Jaxxon? I see a lot of potential in the character, particularly if his armor originates from Hudson's creations.

Ooooh! Good catch! I missed the third. Man, I'm never going to forget how giddily happy I was to see Mac back, scrapping it out with calibre and acting more like the character we saw in the old X-Men issues.

You know, a lot of people refer back to Byrne as their favourite Alpha writer -- and I did love those first 12 issues -- but he wrote an ongoing series like a mini-series. Characters that were perfectly designed to be iconic, powerful (in terms of symbolism and practical power both), and enduring were chopped up to make for a great 12 issue run instead of building them for the long haul. That's a damned big mistake.

The more I think about it, the more that Claremont stands out as my favourite Alpha writer. Sure, he only handled them in a very limited fashion, but it was in the X-Men that we saw Mac scrap it out with some of the X-Men's powerhouses alone. We saw Snowbird, Shaman, and Mac team up with Wolvie and Nightcrawler to take on the bloody Wendigo, of all creatures! We got to see Alpha actually act like a team in spite of their bickering; strong and competent, taking on the X-Men at the height of their power and fighting it out to a draw.


Getting back on topic: I agree there's story potential in Calibre, even if that's only because he's shown precious little before. He's mostly a blank slate. A goofball in armour with a big attitude. He doesn't seem the type to have created the tech himself, so that leaves us wondering where he got it -- and the story behind that alone has great potential.

What if it's the Master at work? Manipulating some socially-misaligned individual into wreaking havok at strategic times and places with technology that the Master considers inferior, while the rest of the world views it as high tech? Disguising his movements behind the scenes. A shoot up here, an explosion there: change real estate values, alter the net worth of companies, change public perception of certain regions, foster fear in the right time and the right place -- all in a game of grand manipulation behind the scenes. Have him be a true evil genius, manipulating society on many levels, accruing power in many forms, making him a genuine threat instead of just some bearded nutjob in dancing tights with an over-powered sentient tinkertoy at his disposal.

Some folks may have guessed that the ideas above aren't so off-the-cuff as they might seem. ;)

[Powersurge]

I was once told by an Iron Man fan that Calibre had some history with good ol'Shellhead and wasn't some no-name in a second rate suit of armour.

I'm also glad to see that Claremont has began to get some credit for Alpha Flight and their initial success. IMO Byrne is over-rated as a stand alone of AF. Put him together with Claremont however and SHAZAM!! The stuff of legend is born.

[-K-M-]

Chinnok would be pretty cool, he still has some unsolved mysteries about him

http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Chinook

[kozzi24]

I'm never going to forget how giddily happy I was to see Mac back, scrapping it out with calibre and acting more like the character we saw in the old X-Men issues.

Getting back on topic: I agree there's story potential in Calibre, even if that's only because he's shown precious little before. He's mostly a blank slate. A goofball in armour with a big attitude. He doesn't seem the type to have created the tech himself, so that leaves us wondering where he got it -- and the story behind that alone has great potential.

What if it's the Master at work? Manipulating some socially-misaligned individual into wreaking havok at strategic times and places with technology that the Master considers inferior, while the rest of the world views it as high tech? Disguising his movements behind the scenes. A shoot up here, an explosion there: change real estate values, alter the net worth of companies, change public perception of certain regions, foster fear in the right time and the right place -- all in a game of grand manipulation behind the scenes. Have him be a true evil genius, manipulating society on many levels, accruing power in many forms, making him a genuine threat instead of just some bearded nutjob in dancing tights with an over-powered sentient tinkertoy at his disposal.

Some folks may have guessed that the ideas above aren't so off-the-cuff as they might seem. ;)

Sorry to disagree, Ed, but it does strike me as a bit off the cuff to link Calibre to the Master. Your Master's motivations can be applied to many other characters, including the Wizard, Doc Doom or even Machinesmith.

I guess I always saw a direct link between the Master and Calibre based on the timing of his appearances. The Mac that made you giddy was Delphine Courtney. I saw Calibre as a distraction to Alpha as Courtney advanced her plans.

There's also sublte design links between Calibre and the original "Groundhog" version of Mac's suit. Byrne is quite capable at subtlty...a lot of people never consciously noticed the uniformity in Alpha's stars and triangles costumes in the designs of NS, Aurora, Shaman and Snowbird, linking to the sharp angles in Guardianb's Maple Leaf.

I didn't come up with a tenuous Calibre-Delphine's Omega link just to link the character to someone, but because it makes sense according to the published stories.

Maybe Calibre's armor is largely low-tech...but couldn't it also contain some ulta-high tech linked to Courtney? I see the potential as going all the way to the possibility that the armor contained D.C.'s backups...it is through the Calibre armor that Delphine could restore herself despite Jeffries' thorough destruction. The Calibre software contains Courtney's essence while the hardware contains the raw materials.

[DelBubs]

I think it was stated that Caliber was busted out of prison after his first run in with Alpha. I always took it that he was probably broken out by the original Omega so Delphine could do her grand entrance as Mac.

I can see the similarities between the original Groundhog Armour and Calibers armour, but his was a poor rip off. I remember an Avengers story from many years ago where the Avengers where off to a meeting and an armoured villian was outside the mansion ranting and raving. She Hulk smacked him about a bit while the rest just walked on in. This villian immediately comes to mind when I think of Caliber.

As for the Iron Man connection, I wouldn't think so as I don't recall Calibers name being mentioned during the original ;Armour Wars'.

[Northcott]

Sorry to disagree, Ed, but it does strike me as a bit off the cuff to link Calibre to the Master.

Just so we're not tripping over communication lines here -- "off the cuff" generally refers to spontaneous thought. I'm pretty sure it wasn't. You can disagree if you want, but I don't think you're one of the other voices in my head. ;)

But, yeah, I can see how it came off that way. It's not like I put much forethought into most of my posts, after all.


Your Master's motivations can be applied to many other characters, including the Wizard, Doc Doom or even Machinesmith.

And pretty much every other Machiavellian would-be world dictator. That's the point. :) Archetypes play the strongest when you play to their strengths.


I guess I always saw a direct link between the Master and Calibre based on the timing of his appearances. The Mac that made you giddy was Delphine Courtney. I saw Calibre as a distraction to Alpha as Courtney advanced her plans.

I'm aware of the "fake Mac" story. I think that was my first big disappointment as a comic reader. It was a Hell of a fake-out. Like you and many others, I was under the impression that his second appearance was Courtney's doing.


There's also sublte design links between Calibre and the original "Groundhog" version of Mac's suit. Byrne is quite capable at subtlty...a lot of people never consciously noticed the uniformity in Alpha's stars and triangles costumes in the designs of NS, Aurora, Shaman and Snowbird, linking to the sharp angles in Guardianb's Maple Leaf.

I think Byrne had moments of subtlety in his writing, and perhaps even a few in his art... but his artwork wasn't really given to subtlety. Byrne has two types of technology that he draws: sleek and shiny, or clunky and full of lines. That's a simplification, but you'll find that he uses similar visual patterns for his sleek tech and his clunky tech. What he did with Calibre is a standard. I really don't think he put more thought into the character's design than it took him to sharpen his pencil that day: after all, he was originally just a fill-in character. Anything we come up with after the fact in terms of story are just (hopefully) amusing rationalizations.


Maybe Calibre's armor is largely low-tech...but couldn't it also contain some ulta-high tech linked to Courtney? I see the potential as going all the way to the possibility that the armor contained D.C.'s backups...it is through the Calibre armor that Delphine could restore herself despite Jeffries' thorough destruction. The Calibre software contains Courtney's essence while the hardware contains the raw materials.

I think that's a very neat touch. As solid a rationalization as any for her/its return.

Out of curiosity -- I'm drawing a blank. Can anyone remember if it was stated precisely who designed and built Courtney's very smooth-looking tech and imbued her with a considerable AI?

[cmdrkoenig67]

Scientists at Roxxon, ed...That's all I know.

We're naming enemies of Alpha Flight, huh? Lets see...

Omega Flight...Oh wait...

Nevermind. :P

[Northcott]

Scientists at Roxxon, ed...That's all I know.

As much as I'm sick of big conspiracy theories dropped on the government, I still dig them with fictional corporations. :) That Roxxon had the resources and know-how to build something like Courtney tells me that they had someone of super-human intellect working behind the scenes. Regular Joes don't build super villain robots.


We're naming enemies of Alpha Flight, huh? Lets see...

Omega Flight...Oh wait...

Okay, that was funny. :)

[-K-M-]

How about the return of Lionel Jeffries? his resurrection can be easily explained due to his powers and I think he had untapped potential.

http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Scramble

[DelBubs]

Scientists at Roxxon, ed...That's all I know.

We're naming enemies of Alpha Flight, huh? Lets see...

Omega Flight...Oh wait...

Nevermind. :P
Are we talking Omega Flight 1 or 2 here, they were both enemies. As we know however, most of OF 1 worked alongside Alpha and actually joined the team at some point.

I, myself wouldn't mind seeing most of OF 2 returning at some point, preferably under a different name, it could get confusing otherwise :-)

[Canucklehead]

Are we talking Omega Flight 1 or 2 here, they were both enemies. As we know however, most of OF 1 worked alongside Alpha and actually joined the team at some point.

I, myself wouldn't mind seeing most of OF 2 returning at some point, preferably under a different name, it could get confusing otherwise :-)

That's not the Miss Mass & Brain Drain Omega is it?

[DelBubs]

Yup, I know they were kinda lame, but Bile had something going for him and Sinew could have been explored a bit more. It would have been grand if Sinew had been one of the Children of the Wyre who got missed in the shuffle :-)

[Canucklehead]

Ah, did they ever get a back story or were they just, like, there? It'd be nice if they had a history with AF or Dept H, like the original Omega did. I'm not a fan of villains, especially teams of villains that fight the protagonists simply because they are eeeevil... or wax figures. 8)

[-K-M-]

Ah, did they ever get a back story or were they just, like, there? It'd be nice if they had a history with AF or Dept H, like the original Omega did. I'm not a fan of villains, especially teams of villains that fight the protagonists simply because they are eeeevil... or wax figures. 8)

Only one who had a backstory was Brain-Drain as he was from the old Invader comics. Other than that, we know nothing of them.

[kozzi24]

I thought Omega 2 was far too derivative of other Alpha villains
Miss Mass as Pink Pearl
Bile as Pestilence
Sinew as Wild Child
And that is one of the very few criticisms I had of Furman's run.

[Northcott]

How about the return of Lionel Jeffries? his resurrection can be easily explained due to his powers and I think he had untapped potential.

http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Scramble

For the briefest of moments, I thought you were nominating Lionel Ritche. :lol:

[Canucklehead]

How about the return of Lionel Jeffries? his resurrection can be easily explained due to his powers and I think he had untapped potential.

http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Scramble

For the briefest of moments, I thought you were nominating Lionel Ritche. :lol:

Imagine the Jeffries brothers teaming up? Man, they could do anything.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

If Lionel Jeffries comes back (and I'm aware of it before-hand), I will not buy the book. There is no way Lionel should have gotten off the battlefield, after trying to graft living and dead people. He is an unspeakable abomination.

If he's brought back, you can have him.

[-K-M-]

If Lionel Jeffries comes back (and I'm aware of it before-hand), I will not buy the book. There is no way Lionel should have gotten off the battlefield, after trying to graft living and dead people. He is an unspeakable abomination.

If he's brought back, you can have him.

That's the point isn't it? he's a villian, and you would seriosuly not buy the book if he reappeared? now that's drastic.

[kozzi24]

The nature of his powers adds "fantastical" plausibility to his return over most other characters. But if he returns, how is Roger Bochs possibly affected?

[Canucklehead]

The nature of his powers adds "fantastical" plausibility to his return over most other characters. But if he returns, how is Roger Bochs possibly affected?

Lionel Jeffries' body + Roger Bochs mind... Ooooou, interesting character. 8)

Chances of it happening? nil :(

[Garry/Al-Fan]

If Lionel Jeffries comes back (and I'm aware of it before-hand), I will not buy the book. There is no way Lionel should have gotten off the battlefield, after trying to graft living and dead people. He is an unspeakable abomination.

If he's brought back, you can have him.

That's the point isn't it? he's a villian, and you would seriosuly not buy the book if he reappeared? now that's drastic.

I'm dead serious. All of Alpha Flight was treated like they didn't have an ounce of brains during this "story arc." Northstar, who should have been the resident skeptic, doesn't even entertain the thought of going to any other doctor besides Lionel; Heather [though touched by Scramble after being "cured" by Madison, so I'm beginning to understand how it happened] doesn't even consider finding Shaman (hell, how about the second-best surgeon in Canada) to help Puck, Northstar, or Roger? Yes, I know Shaman was getting all out-of-character due to the Coronet, but what doctor knows most of these super-people better than Shaman?

The Master used a Scramble-enzyme to augment himself. Why? The Master put himself back together after being completely vivisected. He's had 40,000 years to get a complete understanding of anatomy, and #96
(the same issue he uses the enzyme), The Master states that he knows his own body very well (or something like that).

I don't think it's all that drastic. It's not a story or story-arc I'm interested in reading. Scramble's story has been told, and in my opinion it wasn't told very well, it wasn't told very plausibly, it wasn't told very logically, and it wasn't told with anything that could be considered respect for---let alone knowledge of---who Alpha Flight really is.

[Tawmis]

Ah, did they ever get a back story or were they just, like, there? It'd be nice if they had a history with AF or Dept H, like the original Omega did. I'm not a fan of villains, especially teams of villains that fight the protagonists simply because they are eeeevil... or wax figures. 8)

Only one who had a backstory was Brain-Drain as he was from the old Invader comics. Other than that, we know nothing of them.

Eh? Where was this? I'd love to check that out. :)



I don't think it's all that drastic. It's not a story or story-arc I'm interested in reading. Scramble's story has been told, and in my opinion it wasn't told very well, it wasn't told very plausibly, it wasn't told very logically, and it wasn't told with anything that could be considered respect for---let alone knowledge of---who Alpha Flight really is.

Let me say this - I agree and disagree with your idea.
For me it would be Llan. I thought that had to be one of the worse stories (and story arcs) I have EVER read in any Marvel Comic. And I am not kidding. It is the only part of ALPHA FLIGHT's history that I actually truly despise. With all my heart. I thought the entire idea of Llan and the execution of the story was just... hollow. And then how he looked? Gods, the only way that he would ever kill someone is if they died laughing... he was just drawn so... horribly. There was nothing appealing to even like about him - and I don't mean that as in "he looks so evil like Red Skull" - I mean, he looked so bad that every panel with him was pain to my eyes.

Now that said - if Llan, for example, appeared in OMEGA FLIGHT, I would be very disappointed (unless he got a MAJOR overhaul). But it would not stop me from collecting Omega Flight. I just wouldn't be happy with that arc (and pray to all the gods that listen, that whatever arc it is with Llan that it wouldn't last very long...)

[Barnacle13]

I don't think it's all that drastic. It's not a story or story-arc I'm interested in reading. Scramble's story has been told, and in my opinion it wasn't told very well, it wasn't told very plausibly, it wasn't told very logically, and it wasn't told with anything that could be considered respect for---let alone knowledge of---who Alpha Flight really is.

You make a couple points here that kinda make the opposite argument as well. First, let me say be as drastic as you want with your own money. Spend it on what you like! If you're that turned off by Scramble, then don't buy anything that has that character.

On the other hand, you argue that the storyteller was the problem. The characters weren't handled well and the storyline was ill conceived.That could be said about every character in every comic stable I'm sure. I doubt Iron Man, Wolverine, Spider-man, Superman, Batman, Spawn, etc. have always been characterized perfectly. I'm sure we can all site an arc in which they too sucked. That however doesn't make the character a dead end. A good writer might be able to fabricate a story that we'll all love about a character we all dislike. I'm defineitely not a reader who likes to see characters needlessly killed off. If it make s sense to the story then great. If not, then leave them alone for another writer who might like them. I for one couldn't stand Manbot in V2, but I wouldn't want to see him killed or decommissioned or whatever they'd do with him(it).

[syvalois]

I for one couldn't stand Manbot in V2, but I wouldn't want to see him killed or decommissioned or whatever they'd do with him(it).

I usually forgot Manbot existed.

[darc_light]

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:58 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I thought Omega 2 was far too derivative of other Alpha villains
Miss Mass as Pink Pearl
Bile as Pestilence
Sinew as Wild Child
And that is one of the very few criticisms I had of Furman's run

I actually mistook Sinew for Wildchild while I was searching for an Avatar in the forum's gallery... :oops:

It's funny, there are a lot of feral characters: Wildchild, Wolverine, Sabretooth, Wolfsbane, Wildside, Feral, Thorn, Etc, etc, etc...But the only one I really like is Kyle. Wolverine's too dark for my tastes, Sabretooth is evil incarnate (No, wait, Val Cooper is evil incarnate...), Feral is evil, I think, and I don't know anything about the others.

I guess it's Kyle's development while he was with X-Factor and his sense of humor despite all he's been through that makes him my favorite. Even at his most evil, he's got a good heart in there, he just can't get at it, can't control himself. He's a tragic figure. I think thats also why I like Wyre, they're both people trying to better themselves while being manipulated by others and they're own madness... :cry:

[DelBubs]

Highlight to read, possible spoilers :-)
Manbot has been reprogrammed and is now a Washer/Dryer in the Department H laundry. He had to be good for something.

[Tawmis]

The characters weren't handled well and the storyline was ill conceived.That could be said about every character in every comic stable I'm sure. I doubt Iron Man, Wolverine, Spider-man, Superman, Batman, Spawn, etc. have always been characterized perfectly. I'm sure we can all site an arc in which they too sucked. That however doesn't make the character a dead end. A good writer might be able to fabricate a story that we'll all love about a character we all dislike.


This is true (and I agreed with my statement) - which is why for myself - I said I'd be disappointed to see Llan EVER appear again ANYWHERE in the Marvel Universe unless he got a SERIOUS overhaul.

But along those lines you said a good writer making a character that we can love... I would say this is exactly what happened with folks like ALPHA FLIGHT, NEW WARRIORS and even THUNDERBOLTS.

The first two teams (ALPHA FLIGHT and NEW WARRIORS) are made up of characters that had such minimal development. But the writers who took those characters really fleshed them out and made them incredible and memorable.

And for the THUNDERBOLTS, they took villains (who, come on, never really star in comics so are rarely developed, other than showing up to fight - other than some like Magneto and what not) - but they took these villains (who for the most part are not 'powerhouses' or even OVERLY popular back in their days) - and made them into one of the greatest comics currently.



I'm defineitely not a reader who likes to see characters needlessly killed off.


For me it depends... for example, killing off Cable, Rachael Summers, X-Man, these are all deaths I could deal with just to clear up some of the messy continuity that has polluted Marvel. :)

[-K-M-]

If Lionel Jeffries comes back (and I'm aware of it before-hand), I will not buy the book. There is no way Lionel should have gotten off the battlefield, after trying to graft living and dead people. He is an unspeakable abomination.

If he's brought back, you can have him.

That's the point isn't it? he's a villian, and you would seriosuly not buy the book if he reappeared? now that's drastic.

I'm dead serious. All of Alpha Flight was treated like they didn't have an ounce of brains during this "story arc." Northstar, who should have been the resident skeptic, doesn't even entertain the thought of going to any other doctor besides Lionel; Heather [though touched by Scramble after being "cured" by Madison, so I'm beginning to understand how it happened] doesn't even consider finding Shaman (hell, how about the second-best surgeon in Canada) to help Puck, Northstar, or Roger? Yes, I know Shaman was getting all out-of-character due to the Coronet, but what doctor knows most of these super-people better than Shaman?

The Master used a Scramble-enzyme to augment himself. Why? The Master put himself back together after being completely vivisected. He's had 40,000 years to get a complete understanding of anatomy, and #96
(the same issue he uses the enzyme), The Master states that he knows his own body very well (or something like that).

I don't think it's all that drastic. It's not a story or story-arc I'm interested in reading. Scramble's story has been told, and in my opinion it wasn't told very well, it wasn't told very plausibly, it wasn't told very logically, and it wasn't told with anything that could be considered respect for---let alone knowledge of---who Alpha Flight really is.

Oh you meant the book as in issue, I thought you mean drop Omega Flight entirely.

Also new writer opens up new possibilities, don't discredit a character the way he was handled. As for all we know he could be one of the best characters in the series, you never know.

[-K-M-]

Eh? Where was this? I'd love to check that out. :)

Discussed breifly in Alpha Flight #108, origin issue Invaders #2

[Tawmis]

Eh? Where was this? I'd love to check that out. :)

Discussed breifly in Alpha Flight #108, origin issue Invaders #2

Ooooooh. Okay. Right. I remember that. I thought it was something OUTSIDE of ALPHA FLIGHT's arc during some Invaders arc (because didn't Marvel do a small run of Invaders in the last two years?) - I thought you were saying it was happening during that time.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Also new writer opens up new possibilities, don't discredit a character the way he was handled. As for all we know he could be one of the best characters in the series, you never know. - King Mungi


I did not discredit the character; the writing, the decisions to present the story, and the reason behind the story discredit the character.

If retro-conning the old Alpha Flight is a bad idea, then bringing back Lionel Jeffries is an equally bad idea. Lionel Jeffries/Scramble is a long story-arc whose main purpose was to destroy the original team, and though this story-arc was successful at its underlying goal, it does not employ the elements of fiction that add up to a good story. All the Alpha Flight characters had to be manipulated in unbelievable ways that don't ring true. As a well-written story, it fails, and having a new writer trying to fix/bring back a character who ended up getting what he should have gotten in Vietnam is a waste of time.

And I will not be rushing to spend money on a character that I do not enjoy reading.

[-K-M-]

I did not discredit the character; the writing, the decisions to present the story, and the reason behind the story discredit the character.

If retro-conning the old Alpha Flight is a bad idea, then bringing back Lionel Jeffries is an equally bad idea. Lionel Jeffries/Scramble is a long story-arc whose main purpose was to destroy the original team, and though this story-arc was successful at its underlying goal, it does not employ the elements of fiction that add up to a good story. All the Alpha Flight characters had to be manipulated in unbelievable ways that don't ring true. As a well-written story, it fails, and having a new writer trying to fix/bring back a character who ended up getting what he should have gotten in Vietnam is a waste of time.

And I will not be rushing to spend money on a character that I do not enjoy reading.

I know, hence why I said give Oeming a chance if he did take on the character as he probally could handle it far better. Heck, many characters throughout Marvel U or the DC U have had poor backgrounds, yet they turned out to be great characters.

How so? we don't know how he would be brought back or the direction it would play out. Once again, new writer can add elements of fiction that add up to a good story. Once again your pidgeon-holding the character from how he was written in the past, it's over and if someone else took him up it would be a different direction.

Up to you, I can't force you to read it

[Guardian]

Highlight to read, possible spoilers :-)
Manbot has been reprogrammed and is now a Washer/Dryer in the Department H laundry. He had to be good for something.

Ha! That's the funniest thing I've seen all day. :lol:

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I don't think it's all that drastic. It's not a story or story-arc I'm interested in reading. Scramble's story has been told, and in my opinion it wasn't told very well, it wasn't told very plausibly, it wasn't told very logically, and it wasn't told with anything that could be considered respect for---let alone knowledge of---who Alpha Flight really is.

You make a couple points here that kinda make the opposite argument as well. First, let me say be as drastic as you want with your own money. Spend it on what you like! If you're that turned off by Scramble, then don't buy anything that has that character.

On the other hand, you argue that the storyteller was the problem. The characters weren't handled well and the storyline was ill conceived.That could be said about every character in every comic stable I'm sure. I doubt Iron Man, Wolverine, Spider-man, Superman, Batman, Spawn, etc. have always been characterized perfectly. I'm sure we can all site an arc in which they too sucked. That however doesn't make the character a dead end. A good writer might be able to fabricate a story that we'll all love about a character we all dislike. I'm defineitely not a reader who likes to see characters needlessly killed off. If it make s sense to the story then great. If not, then leave them alone for another writer who might like them. I for one couldn't stand Manbot in V2, but I wouldn't want to see him killed or decommissioned or whatever they'd do with him(it).

It's not just the storyteller. The problem is much bigger than that.

In the mid-80's, DC was publishing The New Teen Titans, Crisis on Infinite Earths, The Dark Knight, and The Watchmen, all impressive feats of sequential storytelling. As someone else mentioned, Marvel was publishing Miller's Daredevil, Simonson's Thor, and Byrne's Fantastic Four, presumably the best that Marvel had to offer.

At the same time, Alpha Flight was being published out of sequence.

Alpha Flight #43, page 11, panel 2, Northstar's thought balloon: "Should I tell Scramble about the cough and weakness that has affected me since I was kissed by Pestilence?" Pestilence doesn't kiss Northstar until AF #44 [page 16, panel 4]. No writer can fix this, but you are welcome to try. Not trying to be sarcastic.

Again, AF #43, last page (24), panel 4: Heather's word balloon: "Puck's hurt!" Heather's word balloon: "We've got to get him to New Life--to Scramble!" If this had taken place after #44, it might have been a lot more rational not to even consider Shaman. But it didn't.

This may or may not be trivial: throughout this arc, after Scramble is presumed cured, the members of Alpha Flight do not refer to Lionel as "Dr. Jeffries" or even "Lionel"; it's usually "Scramble." Moreover, Alpha Flight's recommendation must not have meant much since Scramble and New Life were unlicensed.

Which brings me to a big hole in the story: on what evidence of real medical proficiency was Puck---who had just seen Scramble turn his would-be girlfriend into a monster---able to vouch for Lionel? [AF# 31]

I was stupid enough to think that expecting the best out of the comics I read wasn't a bad thing. Marvel used to be "The House of Ideas," but it lost its moral compass and started producing books that nearly smacked the reader with "you'll take/buy what we give you." I was doubly-stupid to try and point this out.

And for that I'm accused of trying to discredit someone.

[jay042]

One potential villian to consider bringing back is Horatio Huxley from Volume 2. He was treated as a buffoon near the end, but he would make a great mad scientist and recurring baddie. He was presented as one of the most brilliant men in the field of metahuman research. Since volume 2 ended with him cut loose and without govermental support, seems likely he might offer his skills to the highest bidder.

[-K-M-]

Ummm...once again Garry your relying on how he was portrayed back in the day, as even Oeming stated in a recent interview there are no bad characters only bad writers. Also how does that even relate to Lionel Jeffries as character as you mentioned was continunity errors not character problems.

New writer can easily fix those "issues and concerns"

[Barnacle13]

And for that I'm accused of trying to discredit someone.

I agree with your points, the story was not good. All I'm saying is the character could still be a very viable and loved (or villified) character. A good story-teller could do that.

[syvalois]

What about the zodiac? they where good in vol 2 mostly with the mystery involving them and the link to director H.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Ummm...once again Garry your relying on how he was portrayed back in the day [That's all there is. Why is it that no subsequent Editor/Editor in Chief/Writer or Marvel comic brought back Lionel Jeffries' Scramble? G/A-F], as even Oeming stated in a recent interview there are no bad characters only bad writers. Also how does that even relate to Lionel Jeffries as character as you mentioned was continunity errors not character problems.

New writer can easily fix those "issues and concerns"

King Mungi, at the risk of getting more personal than I'd like, you seem to be arguing this pitiful point just for the sake of arguing. The Scramble story-arc violates most of the rules of good fiction: plausible plotting, consistent characterization, logical storytelling. So far, you have said nothing that proves that the Scramble story-arc meets any of these criteria.

If you re-read my original post, I am dead-set against the return of Lionel Jeffries. I didn't say a damn thing about being against someone else being Scramble.

If you feel as strongly about bringing back Lionel Jeffries as I do about leaving him dead, his story told, finished, and done, then write that perfect story that makes Lionel equivalent to The Joker, Lex Luthor, or Dr. Doom. Don't pass it on to Michael Avon Oeming to do this. If you believe in Lionel Jeffries being a great super-villian, than write the story that proves this. Convince MARVEL to commit a 40,000 to 160,000 print run featuring Lionel Jeffries as the greatest super-villian ever. And since it's a perfect story, it should be able to take down Civil War and surpass Justice.

AF# 30: The doctors and staff at Montreal General Hospital didn't seem to be finding a cure for Lionel, but at least they had the good sense not to get close enough for him to touch them. Finally, after Lionel has used his power to disfigure his brother, Madison has Lionel's hands touching his helmet, not Lionel's skin, so who was actually brain-pattening who? Since it was a one-on-one fight and none of the other members of Alpha Flight witnessed it, they only have Madison's word that Lionel has cured himself. There were no hospital staff opening their mouths, one way or the other, about the validity of this. Lastly, Northstar---who had been giving Heather non-stop grief about her powerlessness and lack of credibility as their leader---not only says, "So you will recommence your career as a surgeon--using your strange power to heal others as you healed yourself?," he doesn't have any objections to Madison asking Lionel to join Alpha Flight, even though Madison himself, at that time, was not a member.

Why don't you fix it, King Mungi?

[Phil]

One potential villian to consider bringing back is Horatio Huxley from Volume 2. He was treated as a buffoon near the end, but he would make a great mad scientist and recurring baddie. He was presented as one of the most brilliant men in the field of metahuman research. Since volume 2 ended with him cut loose and without govermental support, seems likely he might offer his skills to the highest bidder.

He was last seen working for S.H.I.E.L.D in Joe Casey's shortlived Deathlok series.


What about the zodiac? they where good in vol 2 mostly with the mystery involving them and the link to director H.

They were all killed by Weapon X in WX #1, where they 'liberated' Jeffries.

[syvalois]

What about the zodiac? they where good in vol 2 mostly with the mystery involving them and the link to director H.

They were all killed by Weapon X in WX #1, where they 'liberated' Jeffries.

oups :oops:

[-K-M-]

King Mungi, at the risk of getting more personal than I'd like, you seem to be arguing this pitiful point just for the sake of arguing. The Scramble story-arc violates most of the rules of good fiction: plausible plotting, consistent characterization, logical storytelling. So far, you have said nothing that proves that the Scramble story-arc meets any of these criteria.

If you re-read my original post, I am dead-set against the return of Lionel Jeffries. I didn't say a damn thing about being against someone else being Scramble.

If you feel as strongly about bringing back Lionel Jeffries as I do about leaving him dead, his story told, finished, and done, then write that perfect story that makes Lionel equivalent to The Joker, Lex Luthor, or Dr. Doom. Don't pass it on to Michael Avon Oeming to do this. If you believe in Lionel Jeffries being a great super-villian, than write the story that proves this. Convince MARVEL to commit a 40,000 to 160,000 print run featuring Lionel Jeffries as the greatest super-villian ever. And since it's a perfect story, it should be able to take down Civil War and surpass Justice.


AF# 30: The doctors and staff at Montreal General Hospital didn't seem to be finding a cure for Lionel, but at least they had the good sense not to get close enough for him to touch them. Finally, after Lionel has used his power to disfigure his brother, Madison has Lionel's hands touching his helmet, not Lionel's skin, so who was actually brain-pattening who? Since it was a one-on-one fight and none of the other members of Alpha Flight witnessed it, they only have Madison's word that Lionel has cured himself. There were no hospital staff opening their mouths, one way or the other, about the validity of this. Lastly, Northstar---who had been giving Heather non-stop grief about her powerlessness and lack of credibility as their leader---not only says, "So you will recommence your career as a surgeon--using your strange power to heal others as you healed yourself?," he doesn't have any objections to Madison asking Lionel to join Alpha Flight, even though Madison himself, at that time, was not a member.

Why don't you fix it, King Mungi?

eh? your the one getting defensive, all I said was a possible new writer could give new life in it..nothing more. Once again the old was bad, the new could be great. Why are you getting upset?

No I know you said that and I said that's fine, I even said you don't have to pick it up if you don't want to. Ok, I never said a damn thing about someone else being Scramble

eh? this thread was pointing out possible villians for the team to come across, I just mentioned a villian no one else mentioned yet. I'm completly impartial if he came back or not, and all I said with his powers he possibly could have the ability to make a plausable return. What are you talking about?...I never even vouched that strongly for Lionel, all I said was a new writer can make a character that had a poor background, which has been done before into a great character.

Your to high strung, I never made a personal comment about you. Also I even said you don't have to pick it up if you don't want too.

[DelBubs]

Scramble with the right writer could well return, but given the amount of baggage he carries, bad wrting etc, the fact he's dead and prolly rotten in his grave, no real reason to bring him back etc given Maddies current status. Then it's prolly better he stay in his grave.

We would be better off discussing Gilded Lily and Diablo. That way we would avoid any unecessary angst. :wink: =; :-#

[-K-M-]

Scramble with the right writer could well return, but given the amount of baggage he carries, bad wrting etc, the fact he's dead and prolly rotten in his grave, no real reason to bring him back etc given Maddies current status. Then it's prolly better he stay in his grave.

We would be better off discussing Gilded Lily and Diablo. That way we would avoid any unecessary angst. :wink: =; :-#

Hey even members of Alpha Flight carry a great deal of baggage..unfourtnately that's why most were "taken care of" in New Avengers #16 so a new writer could start fresh.

[Phil]

Garry, Mungi...

Agree to disagree and take it to PM.

No more arguing here.

[-K-M-]

That's fine, I didn't even know it was a serious discussion anyways. I'm good.

[syvalois]

Garry, Mungi...

Agree to disagree and take it to PM.

No more arguing here.

Do they really need to go to the Prime Minister? We can solve it here, no?:lol:



We would be better off discussing Gilded Lily and Diablo. That way we would avoid any unecessary angst. Wink Speak to the hand Silenced

As long as we don't bring back Pink Pearl and that awful circus. I agree. Ok, I don't agree, I don't like Diablo, I don't want to see him too.

[Legerd]

Do they really need to go to the Prime Minister? We can solve it here, no?:lol:
*groan* #-o


As long as we don't bring back Pink Pearl and that awful circus. I agree. Ok, I don't agree, I don't like Diablo, I don't want to see him too.

I wasn't a fan of Diablo either, but seeing as OF is to be going up against mystical threats the Big D would fit the bill.

[syvalois]

Do they really need to go to the Prime Minister? We can solve it here, no?:lol:
*groan* #-o

That was a joke but what PM means?


As long as we don't bring back Pink Pearl and that awful circus. I agree. Ok, I don't agree, I don't like Diablo, I don't want to see him too.

I wasn't a fan of Diablo either, but seeing as OF is to be going up against mystical threats the Big D would fit the bill.[/quote]

I never liked him, thought he come out as a joke more often than not. Spain really need a better villain.

[DelBubs]

Do they really need to go to the Prime Minister? We can solve it here, no?:lol:
*groan* #-o

That was a joke but what PM means?


As long as we don't bring back Pink Pearl and that awful circus. I agree. Ok, I don't agree, I don't like Diablo, I don't want to see him too.

I wasn't a fan of Diablo either, but seeing as OF is to be going up against mystical threats the Big D would fit the bill.

I never liked him, thought he come out as a joke more often than not. Spain really need a better villain.[/quote]

PM is 'Private Message' Sylvie. As for Diablo, it's pretty much what's been said already, written properly he is a worthy adversary for anyone. Plus he has never managed to defeat AF, so has plenty of reason for revenge.

[syvalois]

PM is 'Private Message' Sylvie. As for Diablo, it's pretty much what's been said already, written properly he is a worthy adversary for anyone. Plus he has never managed to defeat AF, so has plenty of reason for revenge.

D'Oh! #-o ](*,) I can't seem to remember remember that. It's not the first time, I've been told. Damn, I've got alzheimer :shock:

yeah, diablo can me interesting, but he really need to have a costume change and he need a pretty good writer. Like in really, really good.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I just would like comic books to have more of a beginning, middle, and end, not an endless series of implausible story-arcs that resolve little or nothing. At least after 20+ issues, the Lionel/Scramble story-arc came to an end. Hopefully.