Death of Alpha Flight closure?

[evenflow]

I didn't know AF died until a friend of mine showed me a copy of his New Avengers #16 today. Was there any closure in this story line? Is Alpha gone for good?

[mos_def]

its Marvel. nothing is guaranteed. I dont recall a funeral but Wolverine did mention that the POstman killed AF. Thing is, Puck and Sasquatch could have recuperrated from injuries knowing their powers and history. Vindicator and Zuzha Yu I aint sure of. MML and Shaman are probably dead unless some spell was invoked. We do have Omega Flight that might answer some questions

[mos_def]

Wow, I just made Alpha Flight stauts. YESSSSSSSSSSSS

[-K-M-]

As of yet there has been no mention of Alpha Flight or their current status. It's for sure members did in fact die, but there are some who survived.

[Canucklehead]

Wow, I just made Alpha Flight stauts. YESSSSSSSSSSSS

Congrats, man! Welcome to the club! :D

As for closure, I hope they don't wait til Omega #1. Especially since Miller is such a big fan, I hope at least Guardian shows up in Civil War, explains some things and sets up for the new series. Get some more attention in the mainstream book can only help!

[Ben]

And don't forget, Joe Q said Speedball is "dead" too... it could well be used figuratively.

Ben

[RolandT]

I figure Guardian and Puck survived, not Zuzha Yu or Lou Sadler; likely not Shaman, maybe not Vindicator, maybe not Sasquatch. maybe Civil War will give out who lived and died before Omega Flight.

[Powersurge]

Oeming mentioned over on his board that MM Jr. won't be appearing in Omega Flight. Between that and MM Jr's popularity, or lack thereof, I think it is a fair bet that he is ranked amongst the dead. But then, who knows...

[-K-M-]

As much as I hate to say it, Shaman is most likely dead as this is probally the reason Talisman deceides to become part of Omega Flight.

[Mokole]

I'd say it's hard to say still either way. Talisman in AF probably means Shaman is dead but as Ben says, maybe nobody is dead. Just because Guardian is in OF doesn't mean Heather is dead. They do lie a bit, or plain obscure that there is no set 'who is dead' thing. Until it's in print, everything can be 'unwritten' (remember the Monarch fiasco with Captain Atom?).

To me it would make sense if Shaman, Sasquatch, Zuzha, and MML were dead, Puck not, Heather poorly off but still capable of doing nonsuperhero stuff. But who knows how it will ultimately spin out, if at all? :roll:

[Canucklehead]

Hell, maybe he just depowered some of them. Didn't Mail Man like to absorb powers? Maybe "Sasquatch" is dead but Walter is alive.

[-K-M-]

Hell, maybe he just depowered some of them. Didn't Mail Man like to obsorbe powers? Maybe "Sasquatch" is dead but Walter is alive.

He only absorbed the powers of the mutants that lost their power during M-Day. He never shown to take anyone else powers, all though he can give them (ie. Turning Ms.Marvel back into Binary).

[Canucklehead]

Hell, maybe he just depowered some of them. Didn't Mail Man like to obsorbe powers? Maybe "Sasquatch" is dead but Walter is alive.

He only absorbed the powers of the mutants that lost their power during M-Day. He never shown to take anyone else powers, all though he can give them (ie. Turning Ms.Marvel back into Binary).

Exactly, but really, how much of a chore would it be to write "This Collective character must have the ability to absorb superhuman powers aswell!" Done. If that's all it took to keep them alive, do it!

[Tawmis]

Not to mention - it's Marvel. I mean even Psylocke has come back from the dead... or better... BUCKY! And I have a feeling the original Captain Mar-Vell is going to return... just a sneaky suspicion I have had for QUITE a few months now... ;)

So if Shaman, Guardian, Sas - any of them are dead - it would just take one writer to bring them back... and I'd be surprised if someone didn't... eventually.

[Nanostorm]

I just wanted to ask, do you think Bendis had "a bigger plan" when he killed off AF in New Avengers #16? I remember right after the event people were discussing on several forums, and a lot of people said "just wait, it's all part of some bigger plan".

Now there has gone a while, and I just have to ask what you think. Was the "battle" against AF just a weak way to try to show the readers what a "bad ass" his new creation (the collective) was? I mean, if that was the only idea behind it, and Flight characters were going to be killed of, could he not at least have thrown in a few pages of Alpha Flight standing their ground and using their powers before succumbing to the Collective?

Rune

[Phil]

I'm guessing that OF is part of the bigger plan, and will contain some of the closure we're all looking for.

[Nanostorm]

I'm guessing that OF is part of the bigger plan, and will contain some of the closure we're all looking for.

So do you think OF where planed before the events in New Avengers #16, or is it (at least partly) a result of the "uproar" among the fans over those events?

Rune

[Phil]

I don't think that the actual book itself OF and it's creative team were planned before the death as Oeming's said that it was the fan reaction to the deaths that got Marvel to hear/accept his pitch, but knowing what I know of Bendis and how he works I'm sure that a refreshed team/title was in his head as he wrote the scene, and he was planting the seeds for the possibility.

[Barnacle13]

I'd like to see some colsure on this in Omega Flight. Especially if Talisman and Mac are on the team. If Heather were "severely damaged" it may give Mac some motivation to creat a new suit. I don't see Lou Sadler surviving and Zuzha probably bought it too. Can't say I'd miss either of them tremendously. Sasquatch and Puck I think will be back. They are still fan favorites. Puck in particular could work behind the scenes to collect intelligence on SHIELD. But it could also be Heather working behind the scenes. I fear Shaman has also taken the long walk. It would be interesting to see Talisman call on his spirit or for his spirit to "haunt" Talisman's dreams and offer her support from the spirit world. Kinda Obi Wan, Yoda, and Anakin Skywalker-like! Mentor from the grave.

[Canucklehead]

I'd like to see some colsure on this in Omega Flight. Especially if Talisman and Mac are on the team. If Heather were "severely damaged" it may give Mac some motivation to creat a new suit. I don't see Lou Sadler surviving and Zuzha probably bought it too. Can't say I'd miss either of them tremendously. Sasquatch and Puck I think will be back. They are still fan favorites. Puck in particular could work behind the scenes to collect intelligence on SHIELD. But it could also be Heather working behind the scenes. I fear Shaman has also taken the long walk. It would be interesting to see Talisman call on his spirit or for his spirit to "haunt" Talisman's dreams and offer her support from the spirit world. Kinda Obi Wan, Yoda, and Anakin Skywalker-like! Mentor from the grave.

Didn't Shaman do the same with his grandfather? He had his skull in a box in his closet. He used to talk to him from beyond, didn't he?

[Phil]

If Heather were "severely damaged" it may give Mac some motivation to creat a new suit.

Hmm, I think the opposite. I reckon it'd make him pull out of the superhero game permenantly...

[-K-M-]

Didn't Shaman do the same with his grandfather? He had his skull in a box in his closet. He used to talk to him from beyond, didn't he?

Sure did, so even if Shaman dies it might not be the last we see of him. He was one of the only main characters not with a severly messed up story.

[Barnacle13]

If Heather were "severely damaged" it may give Mac some motivation to creat a new suit.

Hmm, I think the opposite. I reckon it'd make him pull out of the superhero game permenantly...

Yeah I was thinking he might design a suit more for Heather's mobility if she were severely hurt or even to sustain her life. More bioengineering than hero engineering. That could lead to him bowing out of the superhero gig, which in my opinion wouldn't be so bad. I like Mac, but his past is way too messy.

[Powersurge]

Hey. Maybe after OF makes it debute, we will see either a one-shot or a reminscience in OF, in which we will get a more detailed picture of the events that went down in AF's encounter with the Collective.

Afterall, the guys at Marvel have gotten an earful about how utterly lame it was that AF died off-panel. I'm sure I'm not the only one that bought the issue of NA to see AF at least make a fight of it.

[reaperbot]

Hell, maybe he just depowered some of them. Didn't Mail Man like to absorb powers? Maybe "Sasquatch" is dead but Walter is alive.

Wouldn't it be the other way around? Sasquatch (i.e. Tanaraq is one of the Great Beasts). I'm not sure if they can die, though manifestations of them in our physical reality can be destroyed.

[Tawmis]

Well according to the new MARVEL UNIVERSE HANDBOOK thingie - in Sas' entry ... it doesn't seem to write him off as dead... and wasn't he present for that battle? (As I don't collect NEW AVENGERS, because I hate the premise of it - I can't verify).

[Canucklehead]

Maybe the Flight was killed off panel just incase a new series did spin from it, any new writer wouldn't be handcuffed to using certain characters, or not be able to use others. It may have looked cheap but at least it's open ended. Anyone of them could have survived and I'm actually glad it's up to Oeming to decide this then Bendis.

[evenflow]

Well according to the new MARVEL UNIVERSE HANDBOOK thingie - in Sas' entry ... it doesn't seem to write him off as dead... and wasn't he present for that battle? (As I don't collect NEW AVENGERS, because I hate the premise of it - I can't verify).

Yep he was there

[condoleance]

Hi,

i just read the collective TP of new avengers. And Alpha flight's off panel decimation took me by shock. Couldnt read the rest of that novel after that.

But now that i look at the omega flight picture. It just struck me that isnt that big mountainous ball of grass theyre sitting on just sasquatch?

[SephirothsKiller]

That's probably wishful thinking.

Edit: Or very insightful.

[DelBubs]

Hi,
But now that i look at the omega flight picture. It just struck me that isnt that big mountainous ball of grass theyre sitting on just sasquatch?
Hi condoleance and welcome to the boards. Now that Sasquatch thingy, that could be him, but then again... Pretty non commital here, but you've got thinking.

[Effexxor]

Alright, I went out ant bout New Avengers #16 and I'm ticked at Bendis' total lack of regard for even doing his freaking homework. Where's Thunder? We see Mapleleaf, but it doesn't make any freaking sense that he would be in a fight this big without Thunder, that would be suicide. So either MM is a total moron or Bendis just... forgot.

Good lord. Could they show any less regard for the fans of Alpha Flight? I'm American and I'm offended by the lack of care taken for the Canadian people. I mean... this is just stupid.

I'm honestly wondering about Thunder though. Where is he?

[Legerd]

Alright, I went out ant bout New Avengers #16 and I'm ticked at Bendis' total lack of regard for even doing his freaking homework. Where's Thunder? We see Mapleleaf, but it doesn't make any freaking sense that he would be in a fight this big without Thunder, that would be suicide. So either MM is a total moron or Bendis just... forgot.

Good lord. Could they show any less regard for the fans of Alpha Flight? I'm American and I'm offended by the lack of care taken for the Canadian people. I mean... this is just stupid.

I'm honestly wondering about Thunder though. Where is he?

Bendis (IMO) did a horrible job with AF's portrayal in NA #16 and showed how little he cares about the characters and their fans.
At the end of AF Vol. 3 Thunder had joined the League of Super Pets IIRC.

[SephirothsKiller]

Alright, I went out ant bout New Avengers #16 and I'm ticked at Bendis' total lack of regard for even doing his freaking homework. Where's Thunder? We see Mapleleaf, but it doesn't make any freaking sense that he would be in a fight this big without Thunder, that would be suicide. So either MM is a total moron or Bendis just... forgot.

Good lord. Could they show any less regard for the fans of Alpha Flight? I'm American and I'm offended by the lack of care taken for the Canadian people. I mean... this is just stupid.

I'm honestly wondering about Thunder though. Where is he?

Bendis (IMO) did a horrible job with AF's portrayal in NA #16 and showed how little he cares about the characters and their fans.
At the end of AF Vol. 3 Thunder had joined the League of Super Pets IIRC.

Lol, I think the League of Super Pets was satire?

But yah, Bendis is an okay writer 85% of the time, and a brilliant writer 5% of the time, but when he screws up... Well that other 10% is always REALLY BAD. Did you read Avengers Dissassembled? I finally bothered to read the entire thing and was astonished at the crapitude. The man... He just needs more time to think about plot.

[Effexxor]

Isn't the League of Super Pets a DC thing, anyway?

It just doesn't make any sense. Ugh. You'd think that MMjr would get Thunder from the League even if there was a league. The kid must have some sense of self preservation... I personally think that Bendis just didn't do his homework. That or the artist didn't, in not putting Thunder in there.

And that's just ridiculous. If you're gonna kill off the chars, at least learn something about them first.

[Legerd]

Lol, I think the League of Super Pets was satire?

It wasn't satire, maybe it was meant to be sardonic. Either way it was a lame joke. However, if Vol. 3 is being accepted as part of AF's continuity then I guess so is this.


But yah, Bendis is an okay writer 85% of the time, and a brilliant writer 5% of the time, but when he screws up... Well that other 10% is always REALLY BAD. Did you read Avengers Dissassembled? I finally bothered to read the entire thing and was astonished at the crapitude. The man... He just needs more time to think about plot.

I guess I've only caught 10% of his work then, cause I have yet to read anything of his that is good. Not that I've read all, or even a lot of his stuff, but I'm still waiting to see something that justifies everyone's love for this guy.

[Phil]

Try Jinx, Torso and Goldfish.

[Legerd]

Try Jinx, Torso and Goldfish.

Are those books or characters? I've never heard of them. :?

EDIT: Never mind, I Googled them and checked out wikipedia. AKA Goldfish sounds interesting as I love noir. Maybe I'll try to find it at my LCS. Thanks Phil.

[Phil]

The above three books and Powers are the only thing of his I've liked.

I didn't read his Spawn related stuff, but so far I haven't enjoyed any of his MU stuff. Not slating him as a writer or jumping on any hate mob bandwagon, it's just not my cup of lager.

[Legerd]

I agree about his Marvel work, nothing I like there. In fact I hate everything I've seen so far, but I'll check out AKA Goldfish as it sounds like something I'd be into.

[Effexxor]

Why does Puck say that he's going to do the talking in this issue, I wonder? I mean, he's got Guardian and Vindicator, the big 'leaders' right there, doesn't it make more sense to have them talk?

And since when was Heather using the geothermal suit?

[Phil]

Since Vol.2 #1...

[Le Messor]

I'm honestly wondering about Thunder though. Where is he?

(LM cranes his neck and points)
Over there, just to the left of 'camera'...

- Le Messor
"auslachen - German for "to attack and disarm someone by making jokes at his expense."

[Phil]

Used for glue...

[Guardian]

Alright, I went out ant bout New Avengers #16 and I'm ticked at Bendis' total lack of regard for even doing his freaking homework. Where's Thunder? We see Mapleleaf, but it doesn't make any freaking sense that he would be in a fight this big without Thunder, that would be suicide. So either MM is a total moron or Bendis just... forgot.

Good lord. Could they show any less regard for the fans of Alpha Flight? I'm American and I'm offended by the lack of care taken for the Canadian people. I mean... this is just stupid.

I'm honestly wondering about Thunder though. Where is he?

I never actually caught the whole, Thunder missin' thing. :oops:

[Guardian]

Lol, I think the League of Super Pets was satire?

It wasn't satire, maybe it was meant to be sardonic. Either way it was a lame joke. However, if Vol. 3 is being accepted as part of AF's continuity then I guess so is this.


But yah, Bendis is an okay writer 85% of the time, and a brilliant writer 5% of the time, but when he screws up... Well that other 10% is always REALLY BAD. Did you read Avengers Dissassembled? I finally bothered to read the entire thing and was astonished at the crapitude. The man... He just needs more time to think about plot.

I guess I've only caught 10% of his work then, cause I have yet to read anything of his that is good. Not that I've read all, or even a lot of his stuff, but I'm still waiting to see something that justifies everyone's love for this guy.

I really have no love for Bendis. It's like I only hear is name when I hear about the great writers at Marvel. Like he's the next mesiah or somethin'. I mean what about Brubaker (UXM, Cap. Am., Criminal) or Reed (Ms. Marvel), Huston (for Moonknight), or Way (for Ghostrider). Those guys have way more talent than Bendis. The only thing of his I can barely stomach is New Avengers and I'll probably drop this book right after Civil War.

[Guardian]

Used for glue...
:lol:

I hope they made horse burgers! Mmmmmm...

[Legerd]

Both Puck (Eugene Judd) and Vindicator (Heather Hudson) have been officially listed as dead on the Marvel website:

http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/index.php?title=Category:Deceased&from=Puck+%28Eugene+Judd%29

None of the others are mentioned thankfully.

[DelBubs]

Aren't the entries on that database entered in by fans, a bit like Wiki. Just wondering how official those deceased names are ?

[Canucklehead]

Funny they were put in that category, yet their own entries end with the Plodex thing. Are their entries written by fans but the categories are arranged by Marvel?

[Legerd]

If you check the bibliographies in the bottom right hand corners they're recorded as deceased in NA #16. The entries themselves appear to be old ones reused.

[SephirothsKiller]

Puck doesn't seem like one to die. I mean he's one of the most durable members on the team for sure.

[-K-M-]

Fans make the entries on the marvel website, even I have edited a few myself. Their unreliable


Puck doesn't seem like one to die. I mean he's one of the most durable members on the team for sure.

Guardian is but I get what your saying.

Actually writers have ignored his durability for years now, I bet Puck's upcoming handbook entry will ignore it as well.

[Canucklehead]

Even though Puck is the heart and soul of the team to us, I'm pretty sure he is one of the major reasons for the "giggle factor" (as Mr. Oeming put it) from outsiders when thinking of Alpha Flight.

I could easily see Marvel killing him off, though if he survives, all I see him being used for is a trainer.

[-K-M-]

Yep you hit the nail on the head there. I also think Shaman is good as dead as well, even though he didn't really have the "giggle-factor" it's a way to bring in Talisman.

[Snowsquatch]

Even though Puck is the heart and soul of the team to us, I'm pretty sure he is one of the major reasons for the "giggle factor" (as Mr. Oeming put it) from outsiders when thinking of Alpha Flight.
Puck's "giggle factor" is largely a result of his lame costume. (Proof that Byrne is not without flaws.)

[Loki]

Actually writers have ignored his durability for years now, I bet Puck's upcoming handbook entry will ignore it as well.

No, it won't.

[-K-M-]

Puck's "giggle factor" is largely a result of his lame costume. (Proof that Byrne is not without flaws.)

Bah! I love that costume, not the one where is legs arn't covered though



No, it won't.

His last handbook entry did, never even mentioned the Master experiments...X-Men Encyclopedia vol.2

[Phil]

No, it won't.

His last handbook entry did, never even mentioned the Master experiments...X-Men Encyclopedia vol.2

Again, emphasis on last.
You've got one of the writers/editors here telling you it won't....

[-K-M-]

He's a writer for the handbooks? haha well then, I actually had no idea.

Well that made my day :) I'm quite excited for it now 8)

[Loki]

No, it won't.

His last handbook entry did, never even mentioned the Master experiments...X-Men Encyclopedia vol.2

Again, emphasis on last.
You've got one of the writers/editors here telling you it won't....

Thanks. And in this case, specifically the writer of Puck's entry. I just handed it in a couple of days ago. The Master's experiments are definitely mentioned, along with a heck of a lot of other stuff.

[-K-M-]

Thanks. And in this case, specifically the writer of Puck's entry. I just handed it in a couple of days ago. The Master's experiments are definitely mentioned, along with a heck of a lot of other stuff.

I honestly had no idea you were the writer, my apologizes

I guess you can't give us any hints eh? :)

[Loki]

Thanks. And in this case, specifically the writer of Puck's entry. I just handed it in a couple of days ago. The Master's experiments are definitely mentioned, along with a heck of a lot of other stuff.

I honestly had no idea you were the writer, my apologizes

I guess you can't give us any hints eh? :)

What kind of hints could I give you? Assuming space restraints don't cause a trim, its a pretty thorough profile of his Puck, going back to his activities in the Spanish Civil War, his imprisoning of Razer within his own body, retraining under monks and mystics to learn to use his new body, at least two trips to Crystalium, fighting with the Outcasts, joining Department H, etc.

[-K-M-]

What kind of hints could I give you? Assuming space restraints don't cause a trim, its a pretty thorough profile of his Puck, going back to his activities in the Spanish Civil War, his imprisoning of Razer within his own body, retraining under monks and mystics to learn to use his new body, at least two trips to Crystalium, fighting with the Outcasts, joining Department H, etc.

Excellent, I believe this will be the first thorough Puck handbook entry to date. I'm very excited about it, as Eugene is one of my favorite characters. Does he by chance still have his metahuman durability? 8)

[SephirothsKiller]

Thanks. And in this case, specifically the writer of Puck's entry. I just handed it in a couple of days ago. The Master's experiments are definitely mentioned, along with a heck of a lot of other stuff.

I honestly had no idea you were the writer, my apologizes

I guess you can't give us any hints eh? :)

What kind of hints could I give you? Assuming space restraints don't cause a trim, its a pretty thorough profile of his Puck, going back to his activities in the Spanish Civil War, his imprisoning of Razer within his own body, retraining under monks and mystics to learn to use his new body, at least two trips to Crystalium, fighting with the Outcasts, joining Department H, etc.

Sweet! Im psyched for this entry!!

[Loki]

What kind of hints could I give you? Assuming space restraints don't cause a trim, its a pretty thorough profile of his Puck, going back to his activities in the Spanish Civil War, his imprisoning of Razer within his own body, retraining under monks and mystics to learn to use his new body, at least two trips to Crystalium, fighting with the Outcasts, joining Department H, etc.

Excellent, I believe this will be the first thorough Puck handbook entry to date.

I've tried. Hopefully you'll be pleased, though as ever, space constraints will mean its impossible to cover everything in detail.


I'm very excited about it, as Eugene is one of my favorite characters. Does he by chance still have his metahuman durability? 8)

While subsequent writers sometimes seem to forget that he possesses it, there's no actual evidence he doesn't have it any more, and no reason or cause for him to have lost it. So, in short, yes, he does.

[Le Messor]

So, in short, yes, he does.

No pun intended, I hope.
Groan. :roll:

- Le Messor
"Being asked whether it was better to marry or not, he replied, "Whichever you do, you will repent it."
- Attributed to Socrates in Diogenes Laertius' Socrates

[-K-M-]

I've tried. Hopefully you'll be pleased, though as ever, space constraints will mean its impossible to cover everything in detail.

I'm sure I willl, and yeah I don't expect a huge lengthy bio. Even 2 pages I would be quite happy with



While subsequent writers sometimes seem to forget that he possesses it, there's no actual evidence he doesn't have it any more, and no reason or cause for him to have lost it. So, in short, yes, he does.

You sir have just made my day, haha thank you very much :D

[SephirothsKiller]

I've tried. Hopefully you'll be pleased, though as ever, space constraints will mean its impossible to cover everything in detail.

I'm sure I willl, and yeah I don't expect a huge lengthy bio. Even 2 pages I would be quite happy with


I'd equate length that Marvel allows with probability of Puck showing up, but since Talisman (or whomever that is) is supposedly the heart of the old alpha in Omega I'd doubt it. I still have to think he'll show up somewhere though...

[-K-M-]

Bah! Puck's the heart of Alpha Flight from the old series, he's the man. Over on another board I created a huge Puck fanclub after I made the respect thread for him.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Bah! Puck's the heart of Alpha Flight from the old series, he's the man.

Hmmm...I've noticed a few Alpha fans say this from time to time, but to me...It's all a matter of opinion.

It's pretty clear from John Byrne's AF run that Mac and Heather are the "hearts" of AF(as it should be), Heather more so when Mac died (of course).

Bill Mantlo focused on Puck very heavily, so you could probably say then that he became the heart of AF...Although, Heather kept the team going (barely) and she also was heavily focused on by Mr. Mantlo.

Dana

[DelBubs]

I'll have to agree with Dana when he says it's all a matter of opinion, but will have to disagree in regards to Mantlo. To my mind Puck came into his own after the death of Mac. It was Judd who encouraged Heather and supported her during that time. Mantlo then turned him into a whiney no hoper who moaned constantly. I wouldn't say that Puck was the heart of AF under mantlo, but initially Puck embodied the concept of AF as Mac had envisaged it, Mantlo just took all that away.

Just my two cents worth.

[-K-M-]

Hey i say Puck as members even said he was, and I believe a handbook entry even stated as such. He's one of my favorite characters so of course I'm going to be biased 8)

but yes without Heather there wouldn't have been a team for as long as there was.