Iron Jerk

[Julesville]

Remember the last time Iron Man went all militario? He started Force Works and ended getting a bunch of people killed. And then it turned out he was being controled by Kang I think. That sucked. Not from a literary point of veiw, but from a "For those guys" point of veiw.

Considering this Civil War arc is going along the same lines, you'd like someone would drae a corrolary, maybe...

Iron Man, however, does seem like a jerk alot though. He needs to chill out... have a drink...

[Guardian]

Iron Man has always been kind of a ______(enter expletive here). But I'm more shocked at the recent turn of events involving !SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reed Richards and Hank Pym creating a monster in the form of a cloned Thor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!END OF!!!!!!!!!!! in the most recent Civil War #4 book. I didn't think I could dispise any so called hero more than Iron Man. I guess I was wrong.

[Powersurge]

Well, stress can do alot of strange things to a lot of otherwsie good people.

I still don't really get Cap being anti-reg and Iron Man being pro-reg... save as a simple matter of the prevailing politics of the day.

During the Armour Wars IM was quite willing to do as he would and damn everyone else. That probably wasn't the first or the last time.

Likewise, Cap has repeatedly put his life on the line to protect and uphold the law, the government, it's institutions and the PEOPLE they were democratically put in place to represent. If it was all SO shot through with corruption and evil, why wasn't he (or ANY hero) fighting to overthrow it?

Still, I'm enjoying the story and trying to keep the over-analysis in it's place. Some of the scenes have been truly awesome IMO.

[Julesville]

Cloned Thor!?!?!?!?!? BAD BAD JU-JU!!!!

Iron Man --> Alcoholic
Reed Richards ---> Workaholic, Godless Scientist
Hank Pym ---> Manic Depressive


They should form a screwed up shadow cabal that take over the world and provide with unparreled advances, but everyone wheres a buisness suit and drinks martinis.

Why wasn't Cap in the Illuminati, I know he was more a symbol then a mover and shaker in the Marvel World, but come on, the Illuminati has Iron Man, one of the biggest jerks ever. Namor doesn't give two squirts about humanity. I swear Professor X doesn't know what he's doing anymore, I mean there are only like 200 mutants now so what does his imput matter anymore. Namor has always been a big @$$hole. And Blackbolt is... well, Blackbolt is Blackbolt, nuff said.

What they really need is an Illuminati of Villians who can regulate what the hell their actualy trying to do.

Cap has said though that he supports the idea of America more then the government. Remember when he chose not to run for president, yup.

Anyway, there are going to have to be some pretty huge rifts between people after CW is over. New series kinda rifts. And I don't see the US government just saying it was wrong with the Act and ONE and everything. We're America, we don;t admit we're wrong... it's part of the reason people don't like us... my bad...

Peace!

[Guardian]

Cloned Thor!?!?!?!?!? BAD BAD JU-JU!!!!

Cap has said though that he supports the idea of America more then the government. Remember when he chose not to run for president, yup.

Peace!

Yeah, ole' Cap has worked for the government, shield, etc. but he has never been a lackey for 'em. He believes in the ideas of American and what it should stand for, not just what his government says for him to do. He may be a solider and an American icon, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to question and if need be, go against his government. I'm not saying violence is the answer but, if you put a gun to my head and told me to hunt my friends or be thrown in jail, I may have a problem with that. Just like Cap.
If Cap had just rolled over in the arc, I probably would have sworn off most if not all Marvel comics in disgust.

[Guardian]

Still, I'm enjoying the story and trying to keep the over-analysis in it's place. Some of the scenes have been truly awesome IMO.

Re-reading your post, I've tried to do the same thing. It after all is just a comic book.And the problems aside, this arc has been pretty good in my opinion. And some of the scenes have been pretty damn powerful.SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!I was truly pissed and sad when Thor killed Bill. And equally relieved and disgusted when I found out that Thor was a clone created by madmen. Stupid Tony, Hank and Reed.END!!!!!!!!!!!

[kozzi24]

Tony Stark's always been an arrogant jerk, even before the crossing and before the armor wars (during which he was responsible for the death of the Gremlin. In the early issues of the Heroes Reborn run, Stark mindwiped the world to protect his identity, and he has never reciprocated the level of loyalty that James Rhodes had shown him. How quickly did he move in on Jan Van Dyne when she divorced Hank Pym...when Wasp did NOT know Iron Man was Stark.
The guy's always been a self serving SOB. I don't find him out of character in Civil WAr at all...and didn't find him out of character in the Crossing.

[Legerd]

Remember the last time Iron Man went all militario? He started Force Works and ended getting a bunch of people killed. And then it turned out he was being controled by Kang I think. That sucked. Not from a literary point of veiw, but from a "For those guys" point of veiw.

Considering this Civil War arc is going along the same lines, you'd like someone would drae a corrolary, maybe...


It's funny you should say that, cause I was reading CW #4 in the comic shop and at the end of it I came to the conclusion most of the main characters were being mind controlled.

Spoilers coming up for those who haven't read the book yet!

Iron Man is acting all fascist, Reed Richards looks like he wants to go Gestapo on Spiderman, Cap has the temperment of a rabid pitbull, and... WTF?! Cloning Thor?! These guys are doing things that Arnim Zola can only dream of, and THEY'RE THE GOOD GUYS! Not to mention they're now siccing a team of villains on their national hero! I really wonder if AF's curse hasn't spread to the rest of the Marvel U. :shock:

[Powersurge]

Exactly. They are all acting like a bunch of selfish, egotistical brats.

If the path to victory is "divide and conquor" then the so-called heroes have played right into the hands of the "evil" government.

Stark is engrossed in his utility/practicality. Rogers is blinded by his idealism. And the fact that government could never hope to (abusively)control and manipulate a united hero-community, and one that has the public trust via placing themselves in the loop of accountability, seems entirely lost on them.

[Le Messor]

They are all acting like a bunch of selfish, egotistical brats.

Oh, yeah. Mark Millar's writing it. I forgot.

- Le Messor
"Anger is one letter short of danger."

[Guardian]

They are all acting like a bunch of selfish, egotistical brats.

Oh, yeah. Mark Millar's writing it. I forgot.

- Le Messor
"Anger is one letter short of danger."

=D> :lol:

[Powersurge]

Here is something to consider about IM. I picked it up from a poster over on the Bendis board...

In Illuminati Stark projects what will happen if the heroes refuse to submit to the SRA; they will be hunted, captured, and maybe even executed on the spot.

In CW: Files, Stark revelas that he is well aware of the altnernate futures that guys like Cable and Bishop are from. He is well aware of the "Days of the Future Past" and other similar scenarios that have played themselves out over and over again on, not just one, but numerous alternate Earths.

He wasn't just pulling that "futurist" stuff out of his arse.

:shock:

[darc_light]

I think we discussed this too an extent before, when I was ranting about the other Captain America and the Mutant registration Act...

History belongs to the victors...And the victors usually lie.

[darc_light]

I've got another jerk for you, Dani Moonstar. I was reading New Mutants 5 and 6, where Donald Pierce and his "new" Reavers attacks the team. Wither (Kevin Ford) attacked Pierce and was going to kill for brutally attacking a teammate, but Dani stopped him by forcing images into his mind of him killing his teammate instead. Naturally, this traumatized him (After all, he'd accidentaly killed his own father with his powers, as if that wasn't horrifying enough.). , and he left the school, later joining the Hellions. When he left, Xavier and the others didn't try to help Kevin, he and everyone else felt sorry for Dani, who's stupidity had drove Kevin away...
What's wrong with this picture? :evil: :!: :?:

On a positive note, I still think Wither would make an excellent Horseman, I was initially thinking Famine, but Death better suits his power.

I'm also tired of Xavier being presented as the "Savior" and "Messiah" of the Marvel Universe, The whole world falls apart without him, it's ridiculous.

[kozzi24]

I will be disappointed if the pro-reg heroes are under mind control or some evil influence. I have been liking the story as different political ideaologies between heroes. Mind control just seems to circumvent that,

[Legerd]

I will be disappointed if the pro-reg heroes are under mind control or some evil influence. I have been liking the story as different political ideaologies between heroes. Mind control just seems to circumvent that,

I didn't mean just the pro-reg heroes, I meant both sides, or rather the leaders of both sides. It just seems to me they are acting wildly out of character and I'm just wondering if it's bad writing, mind control or if the heroes (on both sides) are being pushed beyond they're limits morally, and are throwing their long held beliefs out the window while trying to fight for them.

[Powersurge]

I will be disappointed if the pro-reg heroes are under mind control or some evil influence. I have been liking the story as different political ideaologies between heroes. Mind control just seems to circumvent that,

That would be the easy way out. And the action so Tony, Reed and Steve can probably be explained within the context of the situation.

Between his "futurist" genius and knoweldge of multiple alternate futures -- not to mention the resources of the US government and what they could do if left unmitigated, eg. live ammo, Sentinels, Mandriods, Clors galore -- both Tony and Reed have a huge weight weighing down on them. Stress and extreme circumstances can warp the best of personalities, and they could very well be interpretted as taking the lesser of two evils.

As for Cap; Hill more or less forced his hand... demanding, at gunpoint, that Cap do exactly as she required or else. His rection onboard the helicarrier couldn't have been any more predictable.

His extremist zeal might very well be chalked up to a knee-jerk reaction from his experiences with the Nazis during WWII.

Of course, Cap is doing nothing to combat the SRA, have it ammended or overturned. He has no plan other than to continue on advocating a right to anonymity and engaging in vigilanteism, and all the while sticking his head in the sand and hoping the problem will go away.

Of course, Cap is mostly a personal combatant, best at dealing with what is right in front of him.

He should be trying to contact journalists, being very clear and specific as to what about the SRA he and his are in opposition to. And he should be contacting lawyers, the She-Hulk for instance, having her push for ammendments to the SRA and bartering for amnesty on the grounds that he and his are opposing those particulars of the SRA that are clearly unconstitutional, and expressin that he and his are more than willing to submit to the reasonable particulars.

Maybe thats to come.

Keep an eye on Hill though. She more-or-less forced Cap int othe Anti-Reg camp and that is highly suspect.

[kozzi24]

I also don't think Cap's been out of character, because his hand was forced. He was shown in Frontline to have attempted contact with journalists.

Cap's remark about Tony being pampered aren't so far out of character, but I do think the class issue that he raised is more a matter of the writer's worldview. (I find that understandable as I've seen some of the class issues in England.)

Front Line has also been showing the coersion used by the government in the Wonder Man feature.

I've seen reasonable speculation on other threads that Iron Man in particular is being controlled, as he reaffirms his dedication to hunting down the resistance. Each time he does is after being touched by the Stratford mother, as being given the Iron Man doll in CW#4.

I've been enjoying the series enough, but some the story faults seem to grow if I look at it too much. Reed's stance is that "it's the law"? I'd say to Reed, what about the CONSTITUTIONAL right to a fair and speedy trial?

[Legerd]

I've been enjoying the series enough, but some the story faults seem to grow if I look at it too much. Reed's stance is that "it's the law"? I'd say to Reed, what about the CONSTITUTIONAL right to a fair and speedy trial?

That was one of the things I was refering to in my early post. All of a sudden Reed is ready to imprison heroes in the Negative Zone that he has known and fought beside without the least little twinge to his conscience? Cloning Thor, IMHO, would not only be a violation of Thor's rights (dead or not), not only direspectful of a fallen hero and friend, but against American law. (There is a ban on cloning people there is there not?) Not to mention his comment during Goliath's funeral about Spiderman's suspicious behaviour. He just seems too out of character even when you take into account that he may consider what he's doing to be "the right thing".

One last thought: what exactly is going to be the fallout for Goliath's death? He was killed during an official police action, so will there be an investigation? If Reed, Tony and Hank are found responsible for Goliath's death (since they were the ones who created the Thor clone) will they be sent to the Negative Zone prison?

[Julesville]

Meanwhile, Wolverine, as it always seems to be the case, is the one actually getting to the bottom of the matter.

I don't know if you guys are reading Wolvie, but he tracked down Nitro, found out that someone was giving him Mutant Growth Hormone (a clever play off of the real drug Human Growth Hormone). He found out it was the dudes who get paid to clean everything up after the heros stomp on it, Damage Control as the company is called.

Very interesting, yes... this would either suggest that Damage Control is behind it all, making bad dudes stronger to provoke bigger colateral damage, then reap the rewards. If the government hires heros, then DC can get a government contract to clean up after them, and government checks are sweet. Or... they just were doing bad stuff and opened a can of worms.

Doesn't always seem the case that Wolvie ends up the center of the universe. He got brainflogged by Hydra and the whole Marvel world freaked out.


Oh yeah, Powersurge, I like the way you called the Cloned Thor, Clor. Good stuff, did you come up with that?

[Powersurge]

Oh yeah, Powersurge, I like the way you called the Cloned Thor, Clor. Good stuff, did you come up with that?

Can't say that I did. I picked it up over on the Bendis board at Jinxworld.

[Powersurge]

Speaking of the NZ detention centre; while I understand that US law doesn't apply there, cause it isn't on US soil, couldn't a lawyer approach the matter from what does transpire on US soil? Namely, what is tantamount to the unlawful abduction and deportation of US citizens?

Not to get all Anti-Reg, but then, I only lean toward the Pro-Reg side.

[Le Messor]

Good stuff, did you come up with that?
Can't say that I did.

You can do it, Powersurge! You can say it, just try, man, try!

- Le Messor
Marge: "Kids can be cruel."
Bart: "We can? Oh, boy!"
Lisa: "Oww, Bart!"

[Powersurge]

You can do it, Powersurge! You can say it, just try, man, try!


B..bu...but, that would be lying. I would lose my "superpowers" if I lied (without due provocation) :wink:

[Julesville]

Speaking of the NZ detention centre; while I understand that US law doesn't apply there, cause it isn't on US soil, couldn't a lawyer approach the matter from what does transpire on US soil? Namely, what is tantamount to the unlawful abduction and deportation of US citizens?

Not to get all Anti-Reg, but then, I only lean toward the Pro-Reg side.The US does this all the time, with the whole "Extradiary Rendition" crap. We send people we want tourtured to Egypt or Gitmo. It sucks.

I think there was some legilature just passed to stop the President from sending "enemy combatants" to holding cells in other places buuuuuut... I think there was a law before, and that doesn't mean anything. It sucks.

But hey, can't you just claim the Negative Zone in the name of the United States, because no one is there and no one wants it. We did the same thing with the Moon.

Wait, doesn't Reed Richards own the Negative Zone?

Peace.

[DelBubs]

I think that the recent legislation passed basically says that interrogation and torture are not as far apart as they use to be.

http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=131439&region=4

[Transmetropolitan]

But hey, can't you just claim the Negative Zone in the name of the United States, because no one is there and no one wants it. We did the same thing with the Moon.

Uhm, you DO realize the Negatize Zone is inhabited, right?

And if Annihlus comes back from the "Annihilation" event, he's going to be somewhat annoyed that we've set up camp in his backyard. Slaughter of imprisoned victims, anyone?