Alpha Death Revisited

[Ahab]

I know that this was discussed in length before, but knowing what we think we know now, what is everyone's current theory about who really died in Avengers? There is no question that the end of AF Volume 3 made AF continuity even worse. Then Bendis seems to have confused the issue even more, showing that Puck II & MMJ were still with Alpha, and Snowbird, Centennial, Yukon Jack, Mar, MMJ's horse and Nemesis were not. This would lead you to believe that he treated the ending of Volume 3 as canon. But if that is true, then that brings up the question of whether it was really the original Alphans that died in that battle.
Considering that Oeming is trying to rid AF of all baggage, I can't imagine that he is going to state that those that died were the temporal copies. But if that is the case, will it ever be explained when the originals returned and why certain ones (like Snowbird) weren't present?
I know that none of this thinking is new to anyone on this board, but discussions went on about this long before we knew that Omega Flight was coming. What does everyone think now? And more important, does Oeming know how huge of a continuity issue the death of Alpha is to us? I think it was meant to wipe the slate clean, but it really just made everything worse by how quick and easy it was done...

[Mokole]

I think he understands our continuity issues.
So I think:

Yukon Jack with Snowbird
Nemesis and Centenniel dead?
Mar in Atlantis? (not that I care)
MML and Zuzha dead
Heather dead
Shaman dead
Mac maybe not dead
Sasquatch alive.
Puck dead?

Seems the only dead/alive ones we know are Shaman dead, Sasquatch alive. MML and Zuzha are most lkely dead. Heather, Mac, and Puck? Who knows?

[Effexxor]

I'm absolutely bewildered with the deaths, to tell you the truth. The ending of AF 3 was just so damned confusing. For instance, the fact that Thunder's gone. According to AF3 Thunder went to form the 'League of Super Pets' but that's just so stupid that I've decided that it has to be a joke. And according to the end of AF3, MMjr and Puck II have a son. It would be a little soon for Puck to already have had the child by the time that they were killed, so if we're going by AF3, then there's a decent chance that they survived and will go on to have their kid.

Yukon Jack and Snowbird are supposed to be ruling Yukon Jack's clan. That's my guess of why they aren't there.

Frankly, I don't hold AF3 #13's ending as canon. I just can't. It doesn't make enough sense to me. However, that's the only way to explain why MMjr doesn't have Thunder, because he'd never be without his source of power if he was going into a battle

I have no idea what's going on, frankly. I'm pretty sure Walter's alive, and I hope Puck's still kicking. I also have this dream that MMjr wears the Guardian suit for Omega Flight. I can just picture the fantastic character development that could come from that. MMjr, facing the loss of his first love and most of his idols, would struggle with the total loss of his innocence and 'unadulterated goodness' and could possibly slip into the same neurosis that ended up destroying his father.

It'll never happen, mind you. But I can dream.

[Ottawa Renegade]

I'll steal Mokole's list, except for Mar because not only do I not care either, I'd forgotten he existed.

Yukon Jack with Snowbird - I think if played properly, Yukon Jack could be interesting. If Snowbird returns I wouldn't mind seeing Jack with her, maybe part-time.

Nemesis and Centenniel dead? - Ugh, I certainly hope so for Centennial. Nemesis certainly appeared to be but she seems like the type that could be brought back easily. I think of her almost in the Grendel type that if one dies, another can take her place.

MML and Zuzha - I would have liked to have gotten Zuzha's story. I don't recall her power being particularly well-defined so perhaps something kept her alive. I could see her going on to try to carry pop's legacy, but that's about it. As far as MML goes, he just bugged me and I can't imagine him around without a huge personality transplant, but his goofiness could also play off well against USAgent. I'm trying to imagine him in charge of (or being trained by) USAgent.

Heather - I'm not anywhere near the Heather fan that many other Flight followers are, but if Mac is gone for good, I'd rather see Heather retired than killed. Seems she earned it.

Shaman - Dead and probably most useful that way.

Mac - I think he's gone, but you know...it's looked like that a number of times before, hasn't it??

Sasquatch - Apparently alive!

Puck - I think he's gone as well, which is kind of too bad. Given the choice I'd like at least one of the Pucks to stay.

[SephirothsKiller]

Wait, do we have confirmation on Shaman's death?

P.S.
Effexor that was sooo my dream first. Stop stealing my dreams!! :P

[Ottawa Renegade]

Wait, do we have confirmation on Shaman's death?

P.S.
Effexor that was sooo my dream first. Stop stealing my dreams!! :P

No, we're just guessing. None of them has been confirmed, that I know of.

[Adam]

As far as I'm concerned none of those cast-recaps at the end of volume 3 happened. I wouldn't mind at all if future writers ignore the Yukon Jack / Snowbird and Nemesis / Centennial parts. It just seemed like part of the books humour to me, not actual plot.

The temporal copies / real team in space stuff is just too confusing for a future writer to have to deal with so I'm just assuming that the copies vanished in a poof of logic and the real time came home.

As for the New Avengers stuff, here's what I'm guessing:

Mac: Dead
Heather: Dead, that or injured and quitting the hero biz
Puck: Dead, but I expect that reversed at some point
Sasquatch: Alive, but we know that
Zuzha: Dead
MML: Dead
Shaman: Dead but not gone. I half expect his spirit to talk to Talisman in the same way that Michael talked to his grandfather's. What a nice twisted plot twist if Elizabeth has his skull in a box in her closet :)

[Le Messor]

I'm just assuming that the copies vanished in a poof of logic

Especially Northstar? :twisted:


(sorry. That was 'puff' in HHGTG.)

- Le Messor
"Your Freudian slip is showing."

[Ottawa Renegade]

As far as I'm concerned none of those cast-recaps at the end of volume 3 happened. I wouldn't mind at all if future writers ignore the Yukon Jack / Snowbird and Nemesis / Centennial parts. It just seemed like part of the books humour to me, not actual plot.

I'm going to adopt this approach as well. Like the talk about "floating heads".
:roll:


The temporal copies / real team in space stuff is just too confusing for a future writer to have to deal with so I'm just assuming that the copies vanished in a poof of logic and the real time came home.

The sense I get is that it won't even be addressed, but if it were, I would leave it to one word bubble and then never speak of it again. "Those guys? We were talking about how they go forward from here, and they just faded away". Bang, that's it, done. No more of that nonsense.

[Adam]

I'm going to adopt this approach as well. Like the talk about "floating heads".
:roll:


To me it just seemed cheap to take that conclusion as gospel. It doesn't seem fair to future writers to have to take what were some throwaway panels at the end of a series that nobody read and have it tie down the characters.



The sense I get is that it won't even be addressed, but if it were, I would leave it to one word bubble and then never speak of it again. "Those guys? We were talking about how they go forward from here, and they just faded away". Bang, that's it, done. No more of that nonsense.

I'd be happy with that. I think most of the big headache continuity stuff could be wiped clean like that.

Puck: "Razer? Yeah it turned out that was all lies. Mephisto or something. I'm a dwarf for real so let's never talk about this again."

[Canucklehead]

Even with the temps forgotten, snowbird ruling with Yukon Jack and most if not all of the Alpha in Av16 dead, there's no explanation for the most important member of AF, Chuck Moss! :wink:

(Hopefully not in the Guardian suit) 8)

PS
Anyone have a good cure for a hangover?

[Ottawa Renegade]

Even with the temps forgotten, snowbird ruling with Yukon Jack and most if not all of the Alpha in Av16 dead, there's no explanation for the most important member of AF, Chuck Moss! :wink:

(Hopefully not in the Guardian suit) 8)

PS
Anyone have a good cure for a hangover?

A toasted fried egg, tomato and peanut butter sandwhich while reading alpha Flight back issues in bed ought to do the trick. :wink: Wash that down with a big gulp of melted butter and you'll be back on your feet in no time.

Unless you're reading V3. That'll just make things worse.

[Effexxor]

Wait, do we have confirmation on Shaman's death?

P.S.
Effexor that was sooo my dream first. Stop stealing my dreams!! :P

But it's such a good dream! Sad and demented as it sounds, I've love to see Louis Jr loose his innocence and be faced with the badness that really does exist outside of the perfect world he created for himself.

Oh, the angst would be AWESOME!

[Canucklehead]

Unless you're reading V3. That'll just make things worse.

What do you think gave me the hangover in the fist place :wink:

8)

[Le Messor]

Sad and demented as it sounds, I've love to see Louis Jr loose his innocence and be faced with the badness that really does exist outside of the perfect world he created for himself.

Look again; he has no such world. He's just the world's leading expert on denial. He could teach Howard Carter a thing or two.

- Le Messor
"Avoid hangovers. Stay drunk."

[SephirothsKiller]

I'm pretty sure innocence is one of his powers... Or something like that... Unswavering good.

[Effexxor]

Look again; he has no such world. He's just the world's leading expert on denial. He could teach Howard Carter a thing or two.


That's true. Denial has been his way of dealing with his father's abuse. However, something has to break that. And frankly, seeing the rest of your team (hopefully) almost slaughtered, that should do. Also, put against such an incredibly powerful foe without Thunder had to make him feel incredibly helpless. To not be able to protect the only person who's ever looked beyond his facade and yet still loved him for it, would foster a horrific sense of helplessness and anger. It would make sense for him to turn to the Guardian suit, not just as a way to avenge his wife but to also prove to himself and his father that he is worthy to exist.

See, what interests me about Louis is that he has such potential to be a fascinating character. He earnestly, honestly yearns to be a super hero, to help people in need and protect Canada. Even though all that he's really had in his life was his beloved brother's slow and painful death and his father's verbal and physical abuse, he keeps on truckin'. There's real faith in this kid that it is his duty to help people and make the world better, and that's a rare thing. Also, he's absolutely selfless. Even though Thunder is his only real powerful way to fight, he sends Thunder off to get help. And even without Thunder, he still is a member of Alpha Flight, even though he is nowhere near as strong or resilient as the other members. The fact is, this guy knows that he has a very real possibility of dying, and yet he continues to try.

And the other thing is that his drive to help and protect really makes sense for him to become Guardian. I know that a name is just a name, but that would be a very powerful thing for him to go from being 'Major Mapleleaf', i.e. the younger weaker version of his father, to 'Guardian', i.e. strong protector of Canada and the world.

Granted, there's no way that it'll happen. Louis will disappear to D class character that no one remembers, and that's fine because a few of us will remember him, but he'll never return to real fame. But in my mind, I'll have that idea and go 'Man, that would be awesome.'

[kozzi24]

I don't mind Mac being dead because he should have stayed that way.

Shaman's death eliminates some redundancy on the team, and he can be more useful as "An Ancient One" to Talisman. Talisman is a more approachable character for new readers that a "50 - 60 yo widowed Indian guy."

My only objection to Puck 2 and MML death was their inclusion. If they hadn't been seen, their existence could be written off that all of Volume 3 was Walter's dreaming. The fix from NA#16 is that Walter was dreaming in part from people he knew existed, this Zuhza woman and MML, and they had been recruited into whatever passes for Canada's Alpha program these days.

Sasqua=tch, thankfully alive.

Hopefully, Puck is also alive.

More hopefully, Heather is also alive. I'd like to say that I can't think of Marvel TPTB leaving a newborn an orphan, but I really didn't think that they'd kill Shaman either, because it opens them up to finger pointing as Indian killers. They've had five prominent Native American heroes, Thunderbirds 1 & 2, Red Wolf, Shaman and Talisman, and have killed 2 of them.

It just seems to me that leaving Sas Puck and Heather alive would re-establish the team closest to who should be around considering most of Alpha's often convoluted history. People who haven't followed every series might see that Wolverine 173 appearance and say, "aren't Snowbird and Mac/Guardian dead?" while an Alpha appearance with Heather as Guardian leading Snowbird, Sas, Puck and the twins would seem more seamless.

[Snowsquatch]

I don't mind if Mac and Heather are dead, provided that someone with AF history is donning the suit (like Northstar or Jefferies). I'm among those who would prefer if Mac never returned, but I'm willing to accept the story as is. I would love to see Heather alive and leading AF in the red suit and visor again, but I'm flexible.

I'd prefer Shaman and MML2 stayed dead, but for different reasons.

I can live with Puck and Puckette being dead, but really, I'd like to hear about Puckette's origins. We can guess that Puckette is the daughter of a Tibetan woman, conceived after Eugene trapped Raazer, with all of Puck's skills and powers (including full languages) being passed on. I'd also like to hear the circumstances of why Eugene was an absent father, and how Zuzha came to be raised in Montreal. And what happened to her mother?

I can live with Rudy's death, but not Nemesis! And I soooo want to hear a definitive history of her life. Who created the sword? Why is she bound to it? Why was she in Boston? Was Amelia Weatherly an assumed name while she hide there? Why was she so committed to destroying her father? So many unanswered questions....

I've assumed Mar was Marrina reborn, and her gender would become clear following puberty. I assume she is still alive. But I'm not too interested in her re-joining AF. She's more interesting as a potential villain than hero.

Thunder? I'm sure the League of Super-pets was a flippant joke.

Anyways, I've always assumed those last panels depicting Zuzha and MML2 married with a kid and Rudy and Amelia dead were yet-to-happen events in the future. (Possibly never-to-happen, now.) Except for Jack and Narya together, which makes sense, and gives her a place to be.

[kozzi24]

If Northstar were to don the suit, it needs to be explained why his bio-energies no longer short it out as een circa #1 or so. He had light powers without Aurora (still, I think...that's always fuzzy and inconsistent) so theoretically, the suit wouldn't work if he was wearing it.

The scene of the twins shorting out the suit was one of the subtler characteristics the Byrne era Northstar was given (inclusing in Chrystar) that was overlooked in later eras: he was always a good tactician.

[Snowsquatch]

If Northstar were to don the suit, it needs to be explained why his bio-energies no longer short it out as een circa #1 or so. He had light powers without Aurora (still, I think...that's always fuzzy and inconsistent) so theoretically, the suit wouldn't work if he was wearing it.
I'm assuming that Northstar would only be wearing the costume, but using his own powers (speed, flight, and the thermal blasts seen in recent appearances). He's not actually wearing the E-M suit that Mac designed.

[Flightpath07]

Don't mean to oversimplify things, but it seems to me that if Sasq has survived (and it seems that he appears in OF, altho we are still not sure if he joins or not), then would it not make sense that our angst and worries and queries about who survived and who did not would all be held within his memories? I mean, geez, Walter would know (a) who was there, and (b) who survived.
Walter would hold the key to the questions about temporal copies, Alphans on space missions, and life and death of those we hold dear.

Walter is the key. And since Oeming and friends know this...

...you would have to think that all will be explained to us at some time. I mean, unless he has amnesia or something lame like that, i'd have ot think he would talk about it with his new team. Even the newbies to Canada would have questions for him, would they not?

All will be explained.

Unfortunately, there are some fears that go along with that explanation...

I am not so sure that i am looking forward to hearing what he has to say. I mean, if Walter says "_____ is dead , i know, i saw them dead at my feet" , well, then we KNOW, don't we? But in that knowing, we lose a very important part of us forever, other than memories.
Alpha feels more like family to me , than just heroes. Many of them are people i have grown up with, trusted, cheered for, and yes even loved. I am not sure that I am yet ready to hear about who is gone forever. Maybe we could somehow, maybe we are better off never knowing? Maybe it is better left a moot point, a taboo subject, until somebody somewhere who understands our pain can reveal to us the forthcoming existence of the new Alpha Flight ongoing series, wherein appears all of our loved heroes, alive and well?
...sigh...
I guess the mourning process has been harder on me than i would have expected. I never even got invited to the funeral! :cry: Perhaps i am just not ready for all of this yet. I am not ready to give up. I don't want a rebirth of a team of deaders, i want the deaders to stand up and take their bows and laugh and cry with us all, and join us for a round of Molsons.
Yeah, the mourning process has been hard for me. I do not even know anybody else who knows who Alpha Flight is! I've had nobody to lean on, and i am still struggling with the emotional turmoil.
Makes me really question sometimes if i am even ready to enjoy another series (OF)...
I seriously hope this new series pulls a few rabbits out of hats for us longtime fans. But, now that it is only a mini-series, somehow i really really doubt it...
I am just not sure that i am ready to be told that they are really dead?
Anybody out there feel like that?

[Ottawa Renegade]

Fret not, friend! The X-Men went a LONG time saying Jean Grey was dead!

Sasquatch might say it, but he might be wrong.

[Flightpath07]

Thanks.
But it isn't just Mac. It's everybody.
We don't have much up here in Canada. We don't get much respect from our American cousins, not even in the comics world. But AF was always ours. If you were an American, you could read it and enjoy it (we encouraged that, actually), but you could never own it - these were OUR heroes.
Now, they are just carion.
On so many levels, that is so wrong!

[Ottawa Renegade]

Thanks.
But it isn't just Mac. It's everybody.
We don't have much up here in Canada. We don't get much respect from our American cousins, not even in the comics world. But AF was always ours. If you were an American, you could read it and enjoy it (we encouraged that, actually), but you could never own it - these were OUR heroes.
Now, they are just carion.
On so many levels, that is so wrong!

Oh, I agree, and this is why the death scene in Avengers was so bloody insulting. In hindsight, it might have turned into a blessing in disguise (not that I'm grateful for it, because I don't feel for a moment that that was ever the intention. If it turns into a good thing, it's by accident).

But once the shock wears off you realise that almost no one stays dead. Not even the most "celebrated" of deaths. I hear Captain Marvel is returning. They all do.

So are they just carion? Meh...maybe for a while...Snowbird seemed dead and gone, Mac's constantly brought back...and I certainly can't get riled up over losing Puck2 or Major Maple Leaf.

Hey, three months ago, we all feared Sasquatch was carion. Well, what do you know, here he is again.

I think ultimately you just want them treated with respect and so far it looks like you'll get that (for a few issues, at least).

[Flightpath07]

Yes, RESPECT.
A good word, that one.
I think most of us here would agree that we feel that so far, Marvel has treated them with INDIFFERENCE. And i know that i await to see if they change their tune, or not.
It isn't so much that i desire CLOSURE. I do not necessarily need a forever list of who is dead and who is alive. As i said, i FEAR that more than desire it.
What i really want is for them to be treated with respect. Like they matter. Because, to me and to many others here (sorry for speaking for y'all), they do matter. They're alive; not as in "they're not dead", but in a sense of they were created by Byrne and others and they have been given a life of their own that must be respected, not ended with a careless thought.
Heck, i'd like to see eight or ten issues of Sasq sitting around reminiscing about AF and all their adventures, their qualities as human beings, their friendships. That would at least show the respect i am talking about.

[Barnacle13]

Thanks.
But it isn't just Mac. It's everybody.
We don't have much up here in Canada. We don't get much respect from our American cousins, not even in the comics world. But AF was always ours. If you were an American, you could read it and enjoy it (we encouraged that, actually), but you could never own it - these were OUR heroes.
Now, they are just carion.
On so many levels, that is so wrong!

Just so you know there are many of us south of the border (that just doesn't sound right to me) who love Alpha Flight just as dearly. I'll give you the patriotic connection. That's one I cannot lay claim to, but from a personal level, it hurt almost as much as losing my grandmother to read New Avenger#16. I too grew up with Puck (that doesn't sound right either picking on the little bugger like that), and Sas. I was floored when Guardian died the first time. And I went on that vision quest with Shaman and his grandfather's spirit. So yeah they may be YOUR heroes, but their every bit as much a part of my circle of friends. Here's hoping we'll both get to enjoy them for a long time to come once Omega Flight outsells X-Men.

[Flightpath07]

And here is my formal apology for dissing Americans.
I did not diss them here, but diss them I did over the treatment given the "deaths" (fcitional, of course, since they are all alive and well - in space somewhere. right? they are, right? right? anybody?...) of AF.
It is unfair of me, or anybody, to paint all people with the same brush.
To my fellow North Americans (that sounds wrong, too! lol) from the land below mine, all of you who love the Flight, you have my apologies and my respect.
Peace out.

[Ottawa Renegade]

Yes, RESPECT.
A good word, that one.
I think most of us here would agree that we feel that so far, Marvel has treated them with INDIFFERENCE. And i know that i await to see if they change their tune, or not.
It isn't so much that i desire CLOSURE. I do not necessarily need a forever list of who is dead and who is alive. As i said, i FEAR that more than desire it.
What i really want is for them to be treated with respect. Like they matter. Because, to me and to many others here (sorry for speaking for y'all), they do matter. They're alive; not as in "they're not dead", but in a sense of they were created by Byrne and others and they have been given a life of their own that must be respected, not ended with a careless thought.
Heck, i'd like to see eight or ten issues of Sasq sitting around reminiscing about AF and all their adventures, their qualities as human beings, their friendships. That would at least show the respect i am talking about.

That would be a terrific idea, and if Omega does well enough to warrant a full series, a mini or series of minis of untold stories of Alpha Flight would be a neat deal.

[syvalois]

Ok, I think I've got pms, but I can understand some writers lack some respect to AF, but you still got to remember AF is a bunch of canadian heroes own by an american company and no one asked them to create that comic, for me just for making that serie and a 3rd and almost 4th serie is a sign of respect.

Just using them, is respect, because they at least got the attention of the writers. Like everything in life respect got to start within. So my canadian friend, stop looking at the neibor (sp?) to get respect. Create your own comic, buy canadian product, get it exported, then you will get respect, not the other way around.

That's why I like that Degrassi comic book Ed was working on, It's a nice exemple of what is respect. I just hope canadian would do more of those projects and stop waiting for our american friends to do something canadian. Last I check, Canada was not part of the state.

yeah, must be the pms.

[Flightpath07]

Ok, I think I've got pms, but I can understand some writers lack some respect to AF, but you still got to remember AF is a bunch of canadian heroes own by an american company and no one asked them to create that comic, for me just for making that serie and a 3rd and almost 4th serie is a sign of respect.

Just using them, is respect, because they at least got the attention of the writers. Like everything in life respect got to start within. So my canadian friend, stop looking at the neibor (sp?) to get respect. Create your own comic, buy canadian product, get it exported, then you will get respect, not the other way around.

That's why I like that Degrassi comic book Ed was working on, It's a nice exemple of what is respect. I just hope canadian would do more of those projects and stop waiting for our american friends to do something canadian. Last I check, Canada was not part of the state.

yeah, must be the pms.


LOL.
Yeah, must be the pms thing.

Seriously, though. Altho Marvel is owned by Americans, John Byrne created Alpha Flight, and John was a Canadian. I did not see any other (American) writer creating a Canadian super hero team, or convincing a US company to publish them.
But what has happened to them since John Byrne left? Lots. Some for the better (perhaps), some for the worst (for those of you who hated volume 3 and thought it was a farce), and some almost obscenely rude (the off-panel death scene).
Would anybody in Quebec object if an American company took over Capitaine Kebec and then killed him off?
I've never even been to Quebec, but i think i would be able to feel the pain of the Quebecois if that were to happen...
Point understood?

[Flightpath07]

That would be a terrific idea, and if Omega does well enough to warrant a full series, a mini or series of minis of untold stories of Alpha Flight would be a neat deal.

I wasn't really talking so much about stories that were untold, altho i might have mentioned that. It was a respect issue. Treat them like real human beings. Show us the emotional side of death, don't just kill them and then move on without a care in the world. I want to see the pain, the loss, the grief. I want to see it for at least as long as I feel it. Something that makes it real, makes it meaningful, rather than just makes it over.
I don't want to move on; if they are really dead, then i want to wallow in it!

[syvalois]

Seriously, though. Altho Marvel is owned by Americans, John Byrne created Alpha Flight, and John was a Canadian. I did not see any other (American) writer creating a Canadian super hero team, or convincing a US company to publish them.

From my understanding, Byrne did not wanted to write AF, It's Marvel that asked him to do it. I do believe that being written by a canadian did helped the serie get the "special feeling", but the way american comics works, the characters are own by the company, not the creators. If that was the case, you would never had seen AF again after #28 juging by what Byrne said.



Would anybody in Quebec object if an American company took over Capitaine Kebec and then killed him off?

Point understood?

Actually not really. My point is that AF is own by american to do as they like, even if created by a canadian, that do not change. If you want to be respected your own comic in canada then export it, I mean export it, not sell it to the americans. Like Marvel is exporting AF to canadians.

Now for Capitaine Kebec. I don't really see why the americans would want to buy it. I would be more angry at the fact it's been bought by americans then the character been killed of by them. Actually, Capitaine Kébec would deserved it. It's like Marvel selling Captaine America to an Iraq comic company.


Plus, if you look
here (http://www.collectionscanada.ca/superheroes/t3-309-e.html)
You would see that Capitaine Kébec is a big joke and laugh about anything. It's so Québécois no one could write it. And like I say in my signature, I never read it, but like the concept of it.

In most cases, you forget that those characters are not only canadians, they are Marvel's characters. Northstar been killed too, turn into a villain and I don't know what's going to happen, do I think they are disrespectful with him because he is canadian/quebecer? no, I think they are ignorant in many cases, but not disrespectful. I may not like the story, but writers write what they think would be good and sometimes it's not.

Did the off panel AF dead was lame? Probably (I did not read it yet). But I think the writers saw them as characters first and not really as Canadians.

If you want canadian respect, create your canadian character to a canadian company, export it and never sell the rights to anyone.

[Flightpath07]

Syvalois,

Good points, and a great link.
Thanks!

[syvalois]

It's like Marvel selling Captaine America to an Iraq comic company.


I just reread mesylf and thought that sentence was really bad. Sorry if I offended anyone. I just meant that there are some stuff that can't be sell. Like Captaine America need to belong to an american company and nothing else. Iraq or Canada or Mexico, Great Brittain too, that do not make sence.

[Barnacle13]

I think you make a great point Sylvie. Why would an American want to buy Capitaine Kebec? Why would an Iraqi want to buy Captain America? Why would Del want to buy Alpha Flight? For each individual it is a personal choice. Some like the art, others the story, still others fall in love with the characters and make them a part of their family. It's really hard to say what motivates us. Maybe it's the fact that the characters are different from us, or just like us despite their differences. Maybe an Iraqi would want to buy Captain America to see there is humanity in Americans. Maybe Americans would buy Alpha because they get that sense of family. I don't know. All I can tell you is that for this American, I'd take the Canadian heroes in Alpha Flight over any of the American titles any day. If Capitaine Kebec were as endearing to me as AF, I'd buy that too. And his death would bother me just as much if I invested as much emotionally as I have with AF. Of course I'd have to learn French first, but even old dogs can learn a new trick every once in awhile.

[Effexxor]

As an American who really wishes she was Canadian, I'm slightly offended that AF 'belongs' to Canada. But as a bisexual who feels a kinship with gay characters... I totally understand where you're coming from.

It's odd how we connect to characters that we 'feel for'. I mean, I probably wouldn't like Karolina from 'Runaways' as much if she wasn't a lesbian, because then she probably would have just been another typical ditzy blonde. But because she was going through the same issues that I was, she became real. She transcended from just being a blonde airhead to being someone that I could picture myself as being friends with and at the very least, someone I could admire. So I understand why AF has a special meaning to you as a Canadian.

I love the characters too. Heather is practically a role model for me in terms of how I want to be. She's capable, smart, caring and even though she's gone through hell, she still picks herself up and goes on through life. I love that JP's blunt way of speaking. He shows no fear and is proud of who he is, dangit. And I even like Louis Jr., because I totally understand the feeling of desperately trying to be something that you're not so that you can seem 'worthy'. I cried too when I got New Avengers, and I bawled like a baby when JP was killed.

But I get where you're comin from, really. Because even though I know that straight people can connect with gay characters, I still have this knee jerk reaction that they can't understand 'my characters' like I can, because they haven't lived through it.

[Flightpath07]

So I understand why AF has a special meaning to you as a Canadian.

Yeah, there was a sense of real pride when Alpha Flight originally started up.
For years, Canadians had read about American heroes. And we had loved them. But some of us wondered what kind of universe Marvel and other companies had created, where almost all of the heroes were in the US of A. It made no sense. Except, of course, from a $ standpoint. Less people in Canada, less people to sell to, so let's keep pumping out the American heroes and making our money.

Really, the thing that made AF so special, beyond the care and vision and love that John Byrne pumped into them at the beginning, was the fact that they were all Canadians, all in Canada, all serving Canada. And we had nobody else to defend our country. So our hearts swelled up with pride.
Finally, we had our own team. Finally. At last.

That is one reason that, although I look forward to Omega Flight, I know that it will never be Alpha Flight. As long as American heroes on the team outnumber Canadian heroes, and as long as there is any doubts about who will run the team (a Canadian leader versus an American one), and as long as it goes on to be a book for Americans that talks about America and America's problems...it may be a great book, and I may buy it (WILL buy it), but it will never be Alpha Flight.
Change happens, and we must except it. And I look forward to what this comic will bring to the table.
But this is OMEGA Flight. Not Alpha Flight.
So I am still going to hope and pray that, sometime in the future, Alpha Flight gets reborn.

By the way, thanks for your kind words regarding wishing you were a Canadian. That's the sort of thing that reminds us up here of our kinship with you Americans, and makes us love and appreciate y'all.

[Effexxor]

By the way, thanks for your kind words regarding wishing you were a Canadian. That's the sort of thing that reminds us up here of our kinship with you Americans, and makes us love and appreciate y'all.

What's not to like? National healthcare, a sensible legal stance on marijuana, rights for every human no matter what and living wages for teachers... man, it's like a dream. I hope to move to Saskatchewan some day, if you couldn't tell.

I can't help but wonder if there's a political subtext to Americans being on Omega Flight. It would be more than ironic if they put Americans onto the team to 'make the team good', and yet have it turn out so that Omega Flight succeeds because of their Canadians, not despite their Canadians. Kind of like how a lot of Americans tend to think that Canada is a good county because they mooch off of America and are Americas backwards cousin, even though they're really succeeding despite America's crappy policies.

[Canucklehead]

What's not to like? National healthcare, a sensible legal stance on marijuana, rights for every human no matter what and living wages for teachers... man, it's like a dream.

Living is about all you can afford as a teacher, at least in Vancouver lol. I shared a crappy basement appartment with 3 people, sharing the $1400/m rent, making $10/h teaching 4 college classes 5 days a week. If you're a teacher and plan to move to a different city, take it from me, research and make sure you do your homework! 8)

[SephirothsKiller]

Ok, I think I've got pms, but I can understand some writers lack some respect to AF, but you still got to remember AF is a bunch of canadian heroes own by an american company and no one asked them to create that comic, for me just for making that serie and a 3rd and almost 4th serie is a sign of respect.

Just using them, is respect, because they at least got the attention of the writers. Like everything in life respect got to start within. So my canadian friend, stop looking at the neibor (sp?) to get respect. Create your own comic, buy canadian product, get it exported, then you will get respect, not the other way around.

That's why I like that Degrassi comic book Ed was working on, It's a nice exemple of what is respect. I just hope canadian would do more of those projects and stop waiting for our american friends to do something canadian. Last I check, Canada was not part of the state.

yeah, must be the pms.

Yah, that Degrassi manga was/is? really top quality and enjoyable art. The story lines aren't my thing, but I recognize quality when I see it. I heard that the original pitch for the show was an illustration by Ed in that style.



The only way to have successful Canadian owned Comics would be A) To have gov't funding, or B) to attach them to an indie label, ala Scott Pilgrim, (go read it!) But when it comes right down to it, breaking a major "universe" that can compete with Marvel/DC universes is unrealistic imo. The comics market is saturated sadly enough, because not enough people respect it.


I also don't think that making a 3rd and 4th series is a sign of respect. Its a sign of "I wonder if we can make money off this?" In the past it may have been a sign of respect, but I haven't seen any signs so far that the marvel EXECs are into the respect game.

[Mokole]

What's not to like? National healthcare, a sensible legal stance on marijuana, rights for every human no matter what and living wages for teachers... man, it's like a dream.

Living is about all you can afford as a teacher, at least in Vancouver lol. I shared a crappy basement appartment with 3 people, sharing the $1400/m rent, making $10/h teaching 4 college classes 5 days a week. If you're a teacher and plan to move to a different city, take it from me, research and make sure you do your homework! 8)

I teach in a small town, 3 kids tagging along, and pay just over $200 in rent. But they'll close my school down this spring so I hope to find another small town to live forever in. :cry:

Fast fact: In my time at this school we have a 65% success rate in getting kids to university (and staying there, zero dropouts 8) ), while our division average is 17%. Add in tech schools and apprenticeships and we rise to 92%, division averages 23%. And still they will close our schools and ship off our kids, not close poorly-operated schooled and ship 'em to us. Yes, we are the #1 academc school in our division, which really rankles teachers at other schools :oops:

[SephirothsKiller]

What's not to like? National healthcare, a sensible legal stance on marijuana, rights for every human no matter what and living wages for teachers... man, it's like a dream.

Living is about all you can afford as a teacher, at least in Vancouver lol. I shared a crappy basement appartment with 3 people, sharing the $1400/m rent, making $10/h teaching 4 college classes 5 days a week. If you're a teacher and plan to move to a different city, take it from me, research and make sure you do your homework! 8)

Thats what you get for living in the city with the highest property values in Canada. :lol:

Just kidding, I think I've mentioned this before, I worship Vancouver from afar. I've never been, and have built it up into a magical place of wonder, with fit people everywhere and lots of happyness befitting the UN's number one big city in the world. I convienently leave out the bit about the high amount of crime, the rain, and the suicides. (Oh UBC... How I long for thee...)

[Effexxor]

What's not to like? National healthcare, a sensible legal stance on marijuana, rights for every human no matter what and living wages for teachers... man, it's like a dream.

Living is about all you can afford as a teacher, at least in Vancouver lol. I shared a crappy basement appartment with 3 people, sharing the $1400/m rent, making $10/h teaching 4 college classes 5 days a week. If you're a teacher and plan to move to a different city, take it from me, research and make sure you do your homework! 8)

Already did my homework! Hence why I wanna go to Saskatchewan. 34k versus 23k here in Nebraska, and the cost of living is a LOT cheaper than living in Alberta. Besides, I like my flat plains. Mountains are too... mountain-y. Rocks annoy me.

And as for shutting down schools and such, that's why I am so not going to teach in a small town. With how painfully liberal I am, it'd be safer to avoid the sheltered farm kids. Trust me, I go to college with farm kids and it's painful. I had a guy my age tell me that his favorite minority group was the FRENCH. Apparently it's because they're classy, they helped us out in the Revolutionary war and because he likes the sound of their language.

I was just surprised to find out that the French are a minority group.

[Flightpath07]

Okay, this is way off topic as far as this Forum goes,
but since the issue of schoolteachers was brought up,

if you wanna make money as a schoolteacher, anywhere in the Western world, then I would seriously suggest teaching in a private school. As with all jobs, there are perks and non-perks too.
My wife is a teacher's aid and certified education assistant - that means that she works with handicapped and challenged kids, and as well helps to teahc and work with the rest of the class (we are talking about handicapped kids that are integrated into "normal" classrooms, of course). She has fullt-ime work (except in sumemrs and school holidays, and makes about $27,000 year.
That ain't that bad. Not top-notch, but not bad either.

Problems with that, are the "liberal lifestyle" thing - most, if not all, private schools are connected with religious organizations of one sort or another. Nothnig against that, of course, but not known to be all that over-accepting of liberalism in lifestyle.

[syvalois]

The only way to have successful Canadian owned Comics would be A) To have gov't funding, or B) to attach them to an indie label, ala Scott Pilgrim, (go read it!) But when it comes right down to it, breaking a major "universe" that can compete with Marvel/DC universes is unrealistic imo. The comics market is saturated sadly enough, because not enough people respect it.

I never said it would be easy or realistic. I'm just saying as long as you don't produce your own stuff, don't expect to have a "canadian" respect. And it's not really have to do with respect, but mostly with ignorance, ignorance of the other and the mentality that goes with it.

I'm just asking myself a lot of questions, what if ? if you like. If AF had been americans, would you say it's lack american respect? I don't think so, because americans are the majority. Lack of respect for the characters themself? Yes, now I would say probably yes.

If, the collective just passed throught Canada and the writer did not used AF, would it have been a lack of respect too? If the writer that killed them had been a canadian, would it be the same impression?

How many canadian characters are there in DC? Not as much as in Marvel, I think. Do DC lack canadian respect too?

All that to say, that if AF where canadian own, written by canadian, that canadian respect would not even be there. It would be a question of character respect.



I also don't think that making a 3rd and 4th series is a sign of respect. Its a sign of "I wonder if we can make money off this?" In the past it may have been a sign of respect, but I haven't seen any signs so far that the marvel EXECs are into the respect game.

humm, yes,I can understand, but I also do understand that mMarvel is a company that need profite to exist, to pay good creators to do a good comic. Yes, Marvel want to do profit, I'm not offended by that. Marvel, the creators and many mores have said that the fan base is a good start, but not enough to generate enough money, if they know that from the start of volume 3 and 4, then, maybe it's not respect, but they see potential in those characters.

But look at what went wrong i the other series. It been said Mantlo did not wanted to write the book, he wanted to do he's own creation. Vol 2, the penciller and inker did not do their job on time, they were on party mode. Do we blame Marvel or the artist here? Now for vol3, I never like Lobdell, but he was a big name and the art was fabulous...but Lobdell... Well, for that, I think Marvel trusted Lobdell and they should not have.

[Flightpath07]

Perhaps this is pulling off-topic. And perhaps not.

In the Sept 06 interview with Oeming, we learn these three things...

- "There will be plenty of original (surviving) Alpha Flight cast popping up."
- The name Omega Flight was once used by a group of villains who fought Alpha Flight, which isn't a coincidence. Oeming said we'll see that addressed "a bit."
- "Why so few Canadians? At this point, there are three on or working with the team, although in the promo image we only see one."

First, let's take the Original Cast members popping up. We have to start by saying, at the time Oeming thought this was an ongoing series. However, it was at least in his plans at that time to bring in other original members to at least guest in the book. By my way of thinking, knowing now who died in the Collective battle, this then refers to Marrina, Snowbird, Aurora, Sasquatch, and Northstar.

Secondly, the Omega Flight villains connection. This "isn't a coincidence," he says. Again, I go back to my comments that it is Weapon Omega in the Guardian suit. He who once was called Wild Child, former leader of AF, and formerly tried to kill James MacDonald 'Mac' Hudson.

And again, the promo image, and the three Canadians on or with the team. Nowhere have I read that Oeming has changed his mind on this. That being said, Oeming has already told me that he considers Talisman to be a Canadian citizen. As far as I know, that HAS to mean that "Guardian" is not a Canadian citizen. Now, this may be a stretch here, BUT PERHAPS IF LOKI IS FLOATING AROUND SOMEWHERE TODAY AND SEES THIS THEN HE CAN CLEAR THIS UP FOR ME, but I still believe that Kyle Gibney (Wild Child, Wild Heart, Weapon Omega) is in the suit. Perhaps he was not born in Canada. Or perhaps he renounced his citizenship? Could he not be an American citizen, or a British one, now?
Anyways, the 2nd Canadian has to be Sasquatch.
And I believe that the third has to be their Govt Liaison, as this team HAS to be Govt run.

LOKI - have you done the article on Kyle Gibney yet in the Handbook? Are you aware of what his citizenship status is, and in which country he was born?

[SpaceGuardian]

Tossing in my 2 cents:

I'll say it again: a synth Mac would count as NOT being a Canadian citizen and keep the Guardian suit on a "Canadian" (at least an artificial one)

[Flightpath07]

lol.
Yeah, maybe they have resurrected Delphine Courtney!
Now, that'd be irony!

[Phil]

Flightpath, seriously, tone down the bold and the demanding questions.
Loki's here as a fan and a guest, he has no commitment to answering things.

Stuart, apologies.

[Loki]

Flightpath, seriously, tone down the bold and the demanding questions.
Loki's here as a fan and a guest, he has no commitment to answering things.

Stuart, apologies.

That's okay. No offense was taken. I don't mind answering questions, when I can - but sometimes I am limited in what I know, and other times in what I can safely say. I can clarify to an extent Handbook related stuff, but generally it's not my place to go into titles other writers are doing (though I will gladly plug the ones I like; I figure that's allowable).

As to Flightpath's query on Kyle G - his entry was in A-Z #12. Even if it is him in the Guardian suit, we would still have done an entry in A-Z #12 for him, to avoid giving away the surprise, and because his absence from #12 might otherwise have been noticable. Of course, I could say the same for Yukon Jack or Radius. And hey, didn't we miss out Flex? Maybe there was a reason for not including him under F... :P

As to Kyle's citizenship, somewhere there started the idea he was Scottish, but as far as we could see, that originated online. The Wild Child writer couldn't find evidence of it in the comics, and bizarely the alleged birthplace was the same as the one established for Wolfsbane. So best we can figure, unless someone here wants to point of an issue which proves otherwise, we think someone online got the backgrounds of the two mixed up, and like many rumours, it spread across the net.

Edit: Sorry, meant to finish - so unless we've missed a story where it was otherwise established, Kyle is now confirmed as having been born in Vancouver, and is Canadian.

[Le Messor]

If, the collective just passed throught Canada and the writer did not used AF, would it have been a lack of respect too? If the writer that killed them had been a canadian, would it be the same impression?

It isn't just the fact they were killed. It's the way they were killed.

Offscreen. Not putting up a fight.

Alpha have the power and experience to defeat the Collective, but killing them didn't even slow it down.

That's the lack of respect.

- Le Messor
"Kicking butt and taking initials. We're not stopping long enough to take names."
- local radio station promo

[Obsidian3d]

I have to agree with Le Messor on this last point. The solicitations for New Avengers #16 listed it as having an Alpha Flight appearance, which is technically what we got. I thought then, and I still feel now that having their death happen as it did was a very cheap and unfair way to treat Alpha Flight fans. Was it meant that way? I don't know, but regardless of intent, the overall perception of it by readers seems to have been met with outrage or disappointment.

Admittedly Alpha Flight is nowhere near as popular as other characters, but they still have fans. Can you imagine the uproar that would happen if another team, like oh...the X-Men were all killed off-panel in another book? The x-fans would go nuts, and Marvel would never do it because they know it's a bad idea. So why were we not accorded the same respect?

I would lay most of the blame primarily at Bendis's feet, as he's the writer. I usually enjoy most of his work, but in this particular case I think it was just poor planning and in poor taste. He'd never do that to Spider-Woman, who is arguably no more popular than Alpha was/is.

Regardless of how we feel about it though, it looks like we're stuck with a few uncharacteristic lines of dialogue followed by an off-panel death. That's certainly one Alpha Flight appearance that I'll never bother adding to my collection, it's not worth the paper in my opinion (although the art was nice).

[Phil]

Can you imagine the uproar that would happen if another team, like oh...the X-Men were all killed off-panel in another book? The x-fans would go nuts, and Marvel would never do it because they know it's a bad idea.

Nah, they'd just bring in an all-new all-different team and the resurrect the dead members, or bring in clones or temporal copies further down the line....

[syvalois]

It isn't just the fact they were killed. It's the way they were killed.

Offscreen. Not putting up a fight.

Alpha have the power and experience to defeat the Collective, but killing them didn't even slow it down.

That's the lack of respect.


I did not read the issue, but I agree it look lame and lacking respect to the characters, but not to canadians in particular. I'm just a little tired that every time something bad happens to AF characters, fan say Marvel lack respect to Canada. It's like complaining about Northstar been used as the gay guy and when the writer do something with him, like killing him, fans blame Marvel to have something against gays buy killing the only gay men. :roll: Personnally, I just think Marvel don't like quebeckers :wink:

I do think AF characters are so much more than just canadians and that's why people around the world likes them, even if they are more obscure than the FF or Avengers. Been canadian is a big part of their identity, but it's not all.

And I do think we have to blame Bendis for that death. Or we could say Bendis is evil and orchestred that shameful death so fans would be upset and speak out load and clear, so Oeming could do his Omega Flight proposal? Do you think Bendis could be that evil?

:evil:

[cmdrkoenig67]

I have to agree with Le Messor on this last point. The solicitations for New Avengers #16 listed it as having an Alpha Flight appearance, which is technically what we got. I thought then, and I still feel now that having their death happen as it did was a very cheap and unfair way to treat Alpha Flight fans. Was it meant that way? I don't know, but regardless of intent, the overall perception of it by readers seems to have been met with outrage or disappointment.

Admittedly Alpha Flight is nowhere near as popular as other characters, but they still have fans. Can you imagine the uproar that would happen if another team, like oh...the X-Men were all killed off-panel in another book? The x-fans would go nuts, and Marvel would never do it because they know it's a bad idea. So why were we not accorded the same respect?

I agree also...Alpha Flight's last series was so much of a bomb, Marvel/Quesadilla decided they had effectively become cannon fodder (not at all fair to AF fans). Bendis also killed the wrong team, though...I wouldn't have minded so much had he killed the All New, All Histerically Unfunny AF (with Sassy still the only survivor). If it was Puck II, Mapleleaf II, Yukon Jack, Nemesis, Centennial and Mar laying mangled in the snow...Oh well.


I would lay most of the blame primarily at Bendis's feet, as he's the writer. I usually enjoy most of his work, but in this particular case I think it was just poor planning and in poor taste. He'd never do that to Spider-Woman, who is arguably no more popular than Alpha was/is.

Ah...But Alpha Flight has not had their own animated tv series, Jessica Drew has...She's had far more exposure than they have (she was even on a Saturday Night Live superhero skit, many years ago). However, Mr bendis has mangled Spider-Woman I's origin to a monumental degree (even though his SW: Origin series was meant to clear her origin up...Ugh).


Regardless of how we feel about it though, it looks like we're stuck with a few uncharacteristic lines of dialogue followed by an off-panel death. That's certainly one Alpha Flight appearance that I'll never bother adding to my collection, it's not worth the paper in my opinion (although the art was nice).

I did add it to my collection, unfortunately....My only hope is that they'll return someday, better than ever.

Dana

[Obsidian3d]

I have no doubt that it was intended to draw a reaction from readers. However, I still don't agree with the way it was done. I mean, even in DC's Fifty-Two series we get to see like 5th level characters meet their demise ON-PANEL and usually putting up some kind of fight. For Alpha Flight (a team that has had over 150 issues of their own books) to not rate the that level of fair treatment is really frustrating.

Had their fate/battle been shown or dealt with in the next few issues I would have been far more accepting of it, but it wasn't. Just *BANG*. "Sorry guys, this team doesn't rate a few actual pages and lines of REAL dialogue in our Spider-Woman / Luke Cage featuring comic book to show you their final battle. Too bad for you, now go buy the other fifty Civil War tie in books."

[Flightpath07]

Flightpath, seriously, tone down the bold and the demanding questions.
Loki's here as a fan and a guest, he has no commitment to answering things.

Stuart, apologies.

Point taken. And I add my sincere apologies to all. In my over-exhuberance to make sure my question wasn't "overlooked" (as opposed to just ignored, which I would have understood and dealt with), I forgot that I was technically "yelling."

My bad.
:oops:
:-#

[Le Messor]

I did not read the issue, but I agree it look lame and lacking respect to the characters, but not to canadians in particular. I'm just a little tired that every time something bad happens to AF characters, fan say Marvel lack respect to Canada.

I get that. I think I agree with you;
but understand a couple of things:
Outside the US (I'm sure you know this, Sylvie), Americans (US) are notoriously solipsistic. Which means, they don't seem to know anybody else exists.
One of the reasons I started reading AF was, they're not set in the US. I didn't want a bunch of "The US is the greatest nation on Earth!" every month--same reason I avoid Captain America... and suddenly dreading a certain character in Omega.
(We got it, in #75. Imagine my disappointment.)

The question becomes: Do Marvel respect people outside the continental US? Or, how 'bout outside Manhatten Island? How many superhero teams have they given a real shot to outside there? W.C.A. and Alpha? Have there been any others given an ongoing?
(Not a rhetorical question.)
EDIT: I Read Runaways. How dumb am I?
But, others?

DC are worse. They all seem to take place in fictionalised versions of NY.

- Le Messor
'There'll be a comic convention in Sydney, so if you can afford a ticket to Australia, go there.'
'There's a comics course in New York; come along!'
- a single DC Bullets page

[kozzi24]

- "There will be plenty of original (surviving) Alpha Flight cast popping up."
- The name Omega Flight was once used by a group of villains who fought Alpha Flight, which isn't a coincidence. Oeming said we'll see that addressed "a bit."
- "Why so few Canadians? At this point, there are three on or working with the team, although in the promo image we only see one."

Possibly the Omega Guardian COULD be a Delphine Courtney, or even a new disguised alias for the Master?

"On or working with the team"? My view is that Mac's been dead so many times that his death in NA just returns to the Byrne era status quo. My hope is that Heather is alive and retired to liaison.

[kozzi24]

If, the collective just passed throught Canada and the writer did not used AF, would it have been a lack of respect too? If the writer that killed them had been a canadian, would it be the same impression?

It isn't just the fact they were killed. It's the way they were killed.

Offscreen. Not putting up a fight.

Alpha have the power and experience to defeat the Collective, but killing them didn't even slow it down.

That's the lack of respect.

- Le Messor
"Kicking butt and taking initials. We're not stopping long enough to take names."
- local radio station promo

The worst part is that the off-panel death was contained in a GROSSLY decompressed issue.

[kozzi24]

As to Flightpath's query on Kyle G - his entry was in A-Z #12. Even if it is him in the Guardian suit, we would still have done an entry in A-Z #12 for him, to avoid giving away the surprise, and because his absence from #12 might otherwise have been noticable. Of course, I could say the same for Yukon Jack or Radius. And hey, didn't we miss out Flex? Maybe there was a reason for not including him under F...

Stuart, a question of curiosity...why does the Handbook indicate anything other than that Radius was definitively killed by Avalanche? Did I miss an issue somewhere, was his death forgotten during House of M planning, or was there a decision to save a character with some potential?

[Mokole]

I'm still thinking it's going to be an ex-Alphan in the Guardian suit, not Postman Mike. Overall, I guess the split in opinions is between Guardian being Hudson, an ex-AFer, or Postie. I'm of course now leaning to an AFer. Hudson second. :shock: :wink: