Omega 5: honest reaction. (If you're not Dana, don't read)

[Le Messor]

I wonder how many people think I'm backing and forthing on the Omega Flight issue? How I've been a naysayer from the beginning, but now that it's only five issues, I'm all panicky and up in arms.

First, an explanation for that: I'm reacting to the news in that way for the same reason I got into comics in the first place. I'm having fun!

Second, like Dana, I do really feel for those who are genuinely disappointed.

My actual feelings?
I was never actually a naysayer. I've never said I hated the idea of Omega Flight, or that it should not be. I've certainly never said I wouldn't buy it; I've always planned to do that.
What I have felt, is that the excitement of fans is misplaced. I've always held a 'let's read it before we judge it' POV. One that is, admittedly, backed by a huge dose of cynicism.
The comments that excited (the people who are / were excited) were pretty much the same comments that Seagle and Lobdell both made. I hate hate v2, and find v3 enjoyable, but embarrasing.
I figured the comments were simply what Marvel told the writers tell us.

This didn't mean the series would be bad. It meant I have nothing (except bad experiences) to judge it on.

Then I started seeing Scott Kolins' art. I found it more to my taste than the other two series. I loved it. Realistic, instead of Nicolodeon garbage.
(The number of Marvel artists who can draw Sas to my satisfaction, however, has held steady at three.) It boded well for the series.

How 'bout the writing?
I still don't feel I know Oeming's comics work well enough to judge it. All I've read is one short story, (USAgent, Choosing Sides) and the three (so far) issues of Highlander. The latter might be enough, but Oeming only has a co-writer credit, so I don't know how to judge his work based on it.

But, from the art, and the little glints I've been getting, I suspect that Omega Flight will fit in well with the current crop of realistic Marvel stories. Ones that look at superheroes from a more real world perspective than in the past.

Based on that, I have prejudged what I'm likely to feel about the series. I think it will be well-written and well-drawn.
But I also think I will have no emotional connection to it at all. Certainly, I already know I don't know most of the cast.

As such, that's my feelings about the shortening: Nothing. Sorry.
(A lot of that has to do with my general emotional state lately, and not with OF itself. I don't get excited easily.)

Maybe, when I've got #1, or #5, I'll be very disappointed that that's all; I hope so. But I don't know. Until I've read them, I don't honestly feel anything.

I've written this to clarify my position.
It's not meant as anything against Omega, with the caveat that I have done a bit of prejudging.
I'm simply advocating, still, a 'wait and see' approach.
We still haven't seen, but it seems to me like we've all judged this series already--most of us as if it were the best thing ever written.
It might be. But I'd like to read it before I decide that.

- Le Messor
"My heart's a virgin, it ain't never been tried,
'Coz you know, I never cry."
- Alice Cooper

[HappyCanuck]

Well said, Mik.

[Le Messor]

Thank you. I just hope nobody takes offense. :oops:

[syvalois]

I don't. It's true, we have seen nothing yet. But going from ongoing to mini-serie, I understand people getting upset, but yes, it's only a comic book, not my life.

I will live, I will survive!

[Le Messor]

Sylvie, mais oui!

A company whose products we support lied to us.
I am totally supportive of those who are upset by it.

- LM
"All they have to do is eat one or two children and there'll be the most appalling publicity."
- Christopher Lee, Gremlins 2

[syvalois]

I read myself again, and I thought I was not clear. I agree with a lot of what you said, mik.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I agree...Well said, Mik.

I also have never said that I wouldn't at least, give OF a try. Did I hate the idea of it?...Yup.

I was peeved that Alpha was first treated like a joke, then given the shaft, then killed and now replaced by another team, given a name formerly used by some of their worst enemies. Ironically...A team that killed their leader and has tried to kill them again and again (Whether they finally succeed is still up in the air...figuratively speaking). I'm mostly peeved because OM was said to be Alpha Flight's last stand, that it all hinged on Omega...Lame. That is the crappiest logic, I've ever heard.

I was bummed to hear about the down-grading...Mostly for those of you who were really psyched about the series. Me...I'm just plain disappointed in everything Marvel has done over the past 15 years or so...Meh.

I hope things turn out okay for Alpha Flight in the end. That's the team I love (mostly the originals)....DO YOU HEAR ME, MARVEL?! Nevermind, I know Jokey Q isn't listening and hasn't been for years.

Dana

[kozzi24]

My thoughts on the Omega concept were actually kind of parallel to yours and Dana's as well. I had some salvation in that because the Omega that seemed to be presented was kind of an amalgam of WCAvengers and Alpha. The American characters chosen were ones I like. I did read Oeming's Stormbreaker series and liked it.

Where I was in 110% agreement with Dana was the fact that we'd heard that and been there and done that with the promises made about this series. If we give what we're getting time, it will become something we like and actually want. Our failure to support what we're being given may actually ruin any AF chances forever.

Marvel says that an Alpha series cannot sell, but Omega and Vols 2 & 3 weren't quite Alpha Flight, and I think that's part of the reason it didn't sell.

Any older reader who came across a copy of Vol 2 # 4 might have looked at it in the store and said, "This isn't Alpha Flight." Anyone seeing Vol 3 #7 in the same casual way would say the same. At least post-Mantlo in Volume 1, someone who had known Alpha and chanced to encounter a random issue would recognize most of the team as Alpha Flight. A saving grace to me of Omega Flight was that it was not being billed or titled as Alpha Flight. It wasn't claiming to be Alpha.

And if we look at the few Alpha team appearances since the demise of Volume 1, we're seing Alpha Flight in a recognizable form. We're seeing an Alpha Flight that crossover reader from TV who saw "Demolition Man" would recognize as what they saw on TV. Aurora's appearance in X-Man stayed true to the character. The team appearances in Wolverine were not only recognizable to the classic team, but went as far as to restore Snowbird to keep the "classic" roster even at the expense of logical continuity. The appearance in Black Panther was that of a team even casual readers would think of as Alpha. My sole complaint (other than Snowbird's off-kilter return) about these appearances stayed with Heather's lessened role in favor of a resurrected (again) Mac. Maybe I'm just not sexist enough, but I don't find a red-headed female Guardian to be less iconic than a male one.

Despite those appearances, when we get an Alpha title, it's new characters, not a recognizable Alpha. There's some inconsistency in that.

Mik and Dana were pretty thoroughly spanked for voicing their dissent about Alpha. I know Dana had been there before when he started expressing disfavor with Volume 3. I got it with him then, because the dissenters--the people who called Volume 3 as crap while it was still being published--were treated as if they were disloyal. I personally think it was the editor of that insult and the writer who were disloyal to the Alpha concept. After Vol 3 was cancelled, most everybody started admitting it was pretty bad. If Scott Lobdell had "plans all the way through Zed Flight" to make Alpha Marvel's next big X-Men franchise, he should have been given quality, true-to-the fictional-lives of the characters from the beginning. He should NOT have given something that twisted so far off course that even his regular artist came on these boards to complain about the failure, after (of course, prudently for his career) the series had been cancelled.

I think all of us who are regulars on the board and maintained a presence even after Volume 3 became a distant but lingering bad taste in our mouths have a deep loyalty to Alpha. But in a larger social context, does that mean we have to be lemmings to whatever cliff Alpha Flight is being tossed from every five to ten years?

I know that I have a reputation as a hard ass on here, and to tell the truth, I AM a hard ass. But I always try to be fair about any specific ISSUE, not the people presenting the issue.

I've liked pretty much everything I've read by Mike Oeming. I find Scott Kollins' art to be sketchy for my tastes, but it is passable and professional. I will be giving Omega the same shot as I would have before the downgrade from an ongoing.

The repeated promise: "Omega" stands for Alpha Flight's last chance. And with it being downgraded from an ongoing to a limited, it seems to be getting less of a chance even before we vote with our dollars.

Dana and Mik were more vocal than I was with the concerns from this announced series, and the downgrade from an onghink, proves part of the point they were making from the beginning. Complain that they're just being the same naysayers they were before, because it's true. They were reacting to precisely the same situation that Marvel through out at us. They're consistent!

There can be other characters involved, but if there's a Marvel team with "Flight" in the name, characters names Walt Lankowski, Heather Hudson, Eugene Judd need to be in that team and title along with at least one mystical character named either Snowbird, Shaman or Talisman and at least one with the surname Beaubier to fill five of the six to eight slots on the team.

Otherwise, no matter what the publisher calls it, I think better than 90% who haunt these boards are never really going to consider it Alpha Flight.

[cmdrkoenig67]

My thoughts on the Omega concept were actually kind of parallel to yours and Dana's as well.

Marvel says that an Alpha series cannot sell, but Omega and Vols 2 & 3 weren't quite Alpha Flight, and I think that's part of the reason it didn't sell.

Yup...I've said that in my letters to JQ and on other message boards...I'm sure I've said it here a couple of times too....LOL.


Any older reader who came across a copy of Vol 2 # 4 might have looked at it in the store and said, "This isn't Alpha Flight." Anyone seeing Vol 3 #7 in the same casual way would say the same. At least post-Mantlo in Volume 1, someone who had known Alpha and chanced to encounter a random issue would recognize most of the team as Alpha Flight. A saving grace to me of Omega Flight was that it was not being billed or titled as Alpha Flight. It wasn't claiming to be Alpha.

And if we look at the few Alpha team appearances since the demise of Volume 1, we're seing Alpha Flight in a recognizable form. We're seeing an Alpha Flight that crossover reader from TV who saw "Demolition Man" would recognize as what they saw on TV. Aurora's appearance in X-Man stayed true to the character. The team appearances in Wolverine were not only recognizable to the classic team, but went as far as to restore Snowbird to keep the "classic" roster even at the expense of logical continuity. The appearance in Black Panther was that of a team even casual readers would think of as Alpha. My sole complaint (other than Snowbird's off-kilter return) about these appearances stayed with Heather's lessened role in favor of a resurrected (again) Mac. Maybe I'm just not sexist enough, but I don't find a red-headed female Guardian to be less iconic than a male one.

Despite those appearances, when we get an Alpha title, it's new characters, not a recognizable Alpha. There's some inconsistency in that.

Right...It is/was hugely inconsistant (IMHO). I too don't get why Marvel will have cartoon and comic guest-appearances, action figures, heroclix and other merchandise all based (mostly) on the original team, yet not give them their own series again? Like you said, Koz...The only comic series they DO end up getting have mostly all-new, unrecognizable team line-ups. It makes no sense to me, at all.


Mik and Dana were pretty thoroughly spanked for voicing their dissent about Alpha. I know Dana had been there before when he started expressing disfavor with Volume 3. I got it with him then, because the dissenters--the people who called Volume 3 as crap while it was still being published--were treated as if they were disloyal. I personally think it was the editor of that insult and the writer who were disloyal to the Alpha concept. After Vol 3 was cancelled, most everybody started admitting it was pretty bad. If Scott Lobdell had "plans all the way through Zed Flight" to make Alpha Marvel's next big X-Men franchise, he should have been given quality, true-to-the fictional-lives of the characters from the beginning. He should NOT have given something that twisted so far off course that even his regular artist came on these boards to complain about the failure, after (of course, prudently for his career) the series had been cancelled.

I think all of us who are regulars on the board and maintained a presence even after Volume 3 became a distant but lingering bad taste in our mouths have a deep loyalty to Alpha. But in a larger social context, does that mean we have to be lemmings to whatever cliff Alpha Flight is being tossed from every five to ten years?

I'm part of that, unfortunately...I am intensly loyal to Alpha Flight...That's why I bought all of Volume 2 (I certainly enjoyed some of it, but it always felt like it was missing something important...Those important things/people didn't show up till the end of the series, though) and Volume 3(I groaned and cringed most of the way through that horror). I felt pretty used, betrayed and stupid (for buying all of it) in the end.


I know that I have a reputation as a hard ass on here, and to tell the truth, I AM a hard ass. But I always try to be fair about any specific ISSUE, not the people presenting the issue.

I've liked pretty much everything I've read by Mike Oeming. I find Scott Kollins' art to be sketchy for my tastes, but it is passable and professional. I will be giving Omega the same shot as I would have before the downgrade from an ongoing.

The repeated promise: "Omega" stands for Alpha Flight's last chance. And with it being downgraded from an ongoing to a limited, it seems to be getting less of a chance even before we vote with our dollars.

Dana and Mik were more vocal than I was with the concerns from this announced series, and the downgrade from an onghink, proves part of the point they were making from the beginning. Complain that they're just being the same naysayers they were before, because it's true. They were reacting to precisely the same situation that Marvel through out at us. They're consistent!

There can be other characters involved, but if there's a Marvel team with "Flight" in the name, characters names Walt Lankowski, Heather Hudson, Eugene Judd need to be in that team and title along with at least one mystical character named either Snowbird, Shaman or Talisman and at least one with the surname Beaubier to fill five of the six to eight slots on the team.

YEAH! GO Kozzi! I truly believe that a series with the real, mostly original AF would sell really well (as long as it had a great creative team working on it and some truly wonderful "back-to-basics" storylines). BTW...Thanks for the props. ...And you're not a harda$$...You're a big softie and we love having you around!


Otherwise, no matter what the publisher calls it, I think better than 90% who haunt these boards are never really going to consider it Alpha Flight.

This brings me back to the theory I had about AF Volume 3...

The first issue sold around 40,000 copies (something along those lines)...I believe by issue six, those numbers fell to almost half that. I believes then and still do, that more than half of the Issue one buyers were Alpha Flight fans (mostly older ones)...Not a bunch of new buyers, like some have claimed. I still feel many older fans dropped the book midway, because they felt there wasn't enough of "their" Alpha Flight in the book. I, myself felt like crap, when the Alpha Flight I wanted to read about got sent into space. I also felt like crap when I read New Avengers #18, that instead of the Volume 3 team (which had been a joke from issue one...Literally!)...It was the originals (again...The team I wanted in a book of their own) got creamed.

It almost seems that Quesada has something against the Byrne AF team, as much as he and Byrne have issues with each other?

Anyway...Lets hope something great comes of OF. I'm going to try and be positive...I know in my heart, somebody will bring back the originals...Maybe OF will morph into a return of the originals at some point.

Dana

[Ottawa Renegade]

It almost seems that Quesada has something against the Byrne AF team, as much as he and Byrne have issues with each other?

I've been on board with all the various reasons for anger and disappointment these past couple of days, but the notion that Q might have something against Alpha flight was one I wasn't able to wrap my head around real well. It didn't make sense to me. But if there's aheat between him and Byrne, then I could totally see Quesada not wanting to promote a product that someone he doesn't dig has created. It's childish, and bad business, but not shocking.

[SephirothsKiller]

This brings me back to the theory I had about AF Volume 3...

The first issue sold around 40,000 copies (something along those lines)...I believe by issue six, those numbers fell to almost half that. I believes then and still do, that more than half of the Issue one buyers were Alpha Flight fans (mostly older ones)...Not a bunch of new buyers, like some have claimed. I still feel many older fans dropped the book midway, because they felt there wasn't enough of "their" Alpha Flight in the book. I, myself felt like crap, when the Alpha Flight I wanted to read about got sent into space. I also felt like crap when I read New Avengers #18, that instead of the Volume 3 team (which had been a joke from issue one...Literally!)...It was the originals (again...The team I wanted in a book of their own) got creamed.

It almost seems that Quesada has something against the Byrne AF team, as much as he and Byrne have issues with each other?

Anyway...Lets hope something great comes of OF. I'm going to try and be positive...I know in my heart, somebody will bring back the originals...Maybe OF will morph into a return of the originals at some point.

Dana[/b]

How do you find out the sales numbers on an issue Dana? I've always wondered about that. Newsarama has the top 100 ranked in sales but thats all ive been able to ever find and it doesn't give an issue amount nor is it comprehensive.

I'm quoting too much here.

[cmdrkoenig67]

How do you find out the sales numbers on an issue Dana? I've always wondered about that. Newsarama has the top 100 ranked in sales but thats all ive been able to ever find and it doesn't give an issue amount nor is it comprehensive.

I'm quoting too much here.

Oh Gawd, Seph!....Please don't make me dig through the old AF Volume 3 posts....Groan...

At the time of Vol 3...One of the other posters here (I think) had posted the sales numbers for the series a long time ago...I'm going on my bad memory. But I believe I'm very, very close to right on about the numbers.

I'll try and look them up...Groan again...

Dana :P

[cmdrkoenig67]

Here's one exapmle of the sales numbers for Vol 3(Dang, I'm good)...Scroll down the page just a little...The post by DMK .

http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=603&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=sales+numbers&start=30

Wow...2004...I was pretty vocal back then too...Hey Del, we actually saw eye to eye back then...LOL.

Dana :wink:

EDITED to add another link...

http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=499&highlight=sales+numbers

[Le Messor]

I'm mostly peeved because OM was said to be Alpha Flight's last stand, that it all hinged on Omega...Lame. That is the crappiest logic, I've ever heard.

I'd actually meant to say that in the original post, but forgot. I don't think it's fair for Alpha Flight's last chance to not have Alpha Flight in it! Like not being allowed to show up to your own trial.

- Le Messor
"I think a mistake a lot of us make is in thinking that the court appointed psychiatrist is our friend."
- Jack Handey

[Guardian]

We'll put everyone. I don't think I could add anything relevent to the conversation.

But, here's to hoping that OF does well. After that, the possibilities could be endless!

[Barnacle13]

I've always said that even Vol.1 was canned because it strayed too far from the core of Alpha Flight. In those final days we had only a couple characters who us "old timers" recognized as Alphans. I'm not saying I didn't enjoy stories with Witchfire, Pathway, Windshear, and others. I'm just saying they never represented Alpha Flight to me. Talisman and Persuasion are the last characters I truly considered Alphans. A good formula in my opinion would be 5 originals, and maybe a member from V2 and V3 a piece. Heather should be the leader! Mac should be dead! Sas and Puck have to be on the team! Talisman, Snowbird, or Shaman are a must! I'd put Box (maybe he could use Manbot for spare parts and finally make him useful) on the team before the twins, but that's my preference. From V2 it'd have to be Flex. From V3 Puck II is the logical choice to explore the Puck/Puck relationship. If Marvel absolutely has to have newbies on the team, just put one and use any others as Beta or Gamma Flight cameos.

I agree with Dana that Alpha's last chance (or stand) should include Alpha Flight in a recognizable form. But I also was a big West Coast Avengers fan, so the makeup of Omega does work for me. Should Spider-woman II and USAgent be making the last stand Vindicator, Puck and Sas should be making? Hell No! But I'll give the book a go and hopefully see it parlayed into an ongoing Alpha Flight or at least an Omega Flight that contains more Alphans. I'll stick around as long as I'm getting stories containing my favorite characters.

Do I buy anything and everything Marvel is telling us? Not even close. I don't even buy their comics anymore. I've just about lost complete faith in their company. I enjoy their action figures, because it's something my son and I can do together, but that'll only last until he hits puberty. After that Marvel needs a plan to get Alpha back if they want my hard earned cash. That gives them about 2-3 years at most. They better get cracking. Bringing back Alpha Flight and some of the other lesser supported titles would go a long way to making things right for me. Avengers West (Force Works), New Warriors (in a recognizable form), even Guardians of the Galaxy would at least get me thinking. I don't need more Iron Man! I don't need more Spider-man! I've grown tired of chasing the X-title of the month train (too expensive and too hard to follow).

Alright I feel like I'm ranting a bit now, so I'll end it here. I admire Dana for stating his opinion even when it wasn't always popular. I think a lot of folks are and were closer to your opinion than they'd like to admit. Still I'm with Ben, Del, and the rest of the Alpha zealots. I'll buy it if it gives Alpha a chance to come back. Here's hoping for all of our sakes that Omega Flight does just that.