confirmation that marvel hates omega/alpha

[varo]

Marvel Comics informs Newsarama that due to "popular demand and an increased importance in the overall tapestry of the post-Civil War Marvel Universe", the upcoming Avengers: The Initiative limited series has been changed to an ongoing series, adding a third Marvel Universe proper ongoing Avengers title to their line-up.

“With the reader and retailer reaction to the climax of Civil War, and the general interest in precisely what comes next for Tony Stark’s Fifty State Initiative, it only made sense to us to promote Avengers The Initiative to a full ongoing series, rather than just a limited," said Executive Editor Tom Brevoort in an announcement. "The number of story possibilities set in place by the new status quo of the Marvel Universe are almost endless, and we’re sure that fans will want to experience them all along with writer Dan Slott and artist Stefano Caselli.”

Avengers: The Initiative premieres next month on April 4th.




http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=103857

[varo]

no disrespect to the creators, but the only thing that i see that has happened is tptb have seen issue 1 and did not like it, so they downgraded it.

their justification of market saturation is no longer holding water.

[-K-M-]

Omega Flight could still become an on-going, their probally getting their sales figures now. Patience, I'm not jumping to conclusions yet.

[varo]

yeah, was thinking the same thing. i'm sure pre-sales numbers are in (although i can't pre-order through my online comic store) and that has more to do with the decision, rather than "the importance of the title to post-civil war marvel"

although i could have swore the buzz for omega was more than the initiative.

[Captain Primate]

I'm actually pretty disappointed by this. Marvel's stated rationale for downgrading OF was that it didn't want to flood the market with post Civil War stuff. Yet, almost every day you hear about Marvel releasing post civil war ongoings or upgrading post civil war minis to ongoing. So, why not OF? The other thing that depresses me about this announcement is that there seems to be a trend of announcing minis, and then upgrading them to ongoings. However, except for OF, there is no instance of a series being announced as an ongoing...and then being *downgraded* to a mini. Why would they announce it as an ongoing, get everyone excited, revise it as a mini, get every pissed off at them, and then (as we all hope) upgrade it to an ongoing? Doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense to me. Unless, of course, they have absolutely no plans to upgrade it to an ongoing...and the only reason they didn't cancel it outright is because they had legal commitments to produce *something* OF.
</grumble>

[SmurfInABlender]

exactly.. uggg.. and I think the best aprt is how they said "due to fandom" they would upgrade it yet they told us AF/OF fans that the way to get it ongoign was to not show fandom but rather with purchasign power, yet apparently fandom is what won the avengers title... I mean who needs three avenger titles? I'll probably pick up the mighty avengers but not this one... uggg...

[Captain Primate]

then again, to play devil's advocate, maybe "due to fandom" is marketing double speak for "lots of pre-orders."

[SmurfInABlender]

how do you pre-order?! I would have if i found a place on the site where I COULD

[Captain Primate]

pre-orders @ brick and mortar comic shops I imagine.

[Barnacle13]

What Marvel hates is series that don't sell. It is a product to them. Sure there are creators who love certain character, but if they don't like our favorites as much it doesn't mean they hate them. I've been on this site for a loooong time, and I don't think I ever remember it being as negative as it has been lately. Hopefully this will all change when the mini starts and folks have something else to talk about. Marvel is a corporation. In the end it means they answer to their consumers and their consumers' money. If Omega Flight sales top X-Men, Spider-man, and Avengers I guarantee Joe Q will be a huge Omega fan! We've already seen what response they have when flamed by the consumer. That has only increased their disdain for the characters and their fans. I'd urge everyone here to step back take a deep breath and do something positive to make this book a success. When it is released, write Marvel and let them know what an incredible book it is. Send them e-mails to let them know that the promo art is phenomenal! Let them here what we have POSITIVE to say about their product for a change. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar (and yes Del I know a dead squirrel will catch the most flies). Overwhelm them with a positive response rather than the now typical, "Why does Marvel hate Omega/Alpha and us?" that they've been seeing. If I'm growing tired of it Marvel has to be well past their threshhold of tolerance. Let's vow to lighten up and be positive about the book, rather than always turning to the negative. I think it'll get us farther in the long run!

OK! Rant over!

Tom

[Captain Primate]

yup, marvel is a corporation. Yup, marvel is interested in the bottom line. Yup, there has been a lot of fan boy/girl *****ing lately. However, Marvel thrives (both commercially and critically) on the attachment that readers feel to characters. As a result, it is in their best interest to treat fans with respect. This doesn't mean that they should cater to every little fan boy/girl complaint, quite the contrary. However, I think that what most people are complaining about is the casual (and almost dismissive) way that Marvel has treated OF (and by extension, the fans). The marketing material, interviews, and solicit process has been down right disrespectful to AF/OF fans....very bait and switch in my opinion. I think there would be a lot less complaining if Marvel had come right out at the beginning and said honestly and openly that it would be a mini. Yeah, people would talk about how they wish it would be an ongoing...but you wouldn't see the kind of widespread sense of betrayal that you are seeing now.

Also, by your token, if Marvel is only interested in sales (which they are), how would being POSITIVE (your emphasis) have anything to do with the success of the book? If its all about sales, we should stop talking about it right now (positive or negative) and simply buy, buy, buy. Whether we choose to use "vinegar" or "honey" in our approach to talking about the book ain't got anything to do with it....we need to refer to the age old adage "you catch more flies with money."

[cmdrkoenig67]

no disrespect to the creators, but the only thing that i see that has happened is tptb have seen issue 1 and did not like it, so they downgraded it.

their justification of market saturation is no longer holding water.

I agree with you Varo, which is why I'm going to quote myself (and Adam) from earlier thread (from: Joe Q at it again... Page 2)...

http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=1926&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15


Yes, he also looked at the market and decided to downgrade it to a mini, but that's part of his job.


Yet New Warriors gets an on-going and the untried new "Champions" gets a Maxi? Downgrading a series from on-going to mini makes me a bit more worried about quality and content, more than it being a marketing issue.

Now Avengers: The Initiative has been made an ongoing. I think Quesada saw OF #1, 2, etc...and made the decision that it wouldn't make it as an ongoing....There is only one reason for that(I doubt very much that it has anything to do with the market). I'll to say no more.

Dana

[mreeez]

Maybe the peeps at Marvel don't like what they have seen of Omega Flight. It was an ongoing then downgraded and now other titles with seemingly less buzz are getting upgraded. Makes ya think.

[cmdrkoenig67]

What Marvel hates is series that don't sell. It is a product to them.

I think we're all clear on that, Tom.


Sure there are creators who love certain character, but if they don't like our favorites as much it doesn't mean they hate them. I've been on this site for a loooong time, and I don't think I ever remember it being as negative as it has been lately.

Why do you think that is? AF fans have been burned twice now (more so by the recent Volume Three)...Many of us are getting the feeling that we're going to be burned yet again (call us paranoid, but we do have sufficient reason to expect more).

We can all try to be positive, but there are nagging questions that Marvel has danced around (like which Alphans exactly are dead and why has the series been downgraded)...I think a few of us also dread the idea of the series coming out and that's where we might learn that they killed all of Alpha Flight, except Sasquatch (I for one will be beyond livid). Call me a pessimist, but I don't have high hopes for this series. I for one am afraid if this series is highly successful, that we will never see the real Alpha Flight again...Just various future incarnations of Omega. I'd rather see the original AF back in action, than another stand-in team (BTW Phil...Please keep any "Byrne circle jerk" comments to yourself, thanks).


Hopefully this will all change when the mini starts and folks have something else to talk about. Marvel is a corporation. In the end it means they answer to their consumers and their consumers' money. If Omega Flight sales top X-Men, Spider-man, and Avengers I guarantee Joe Q will be a huge Omega fan! We've already seen what response they have when flamed by the consumer. That has only increased their disdain for the characters and their fans.

Yet "Professional" people like Quesada and Brevoort can flame/disrespect AF and AF fans and that's okay with you? How can we keep a stiff upper lip, when they keep slapping our faces with insults to our intelligence or making constant jokes about characters we love and/or grew up with?


I'd urge everyone here to step back take a deep breath and do something positive to make this book a success. When it is released, write Marvel and let them know what an incredible book it is.

...And if the book isn't incedible?


Send them e-mails to let them know that the promo art is phenomenal! Let them here what we have POSITIVE to say about their product for a change. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar (and yes Del I know a dead squirrel will catch the most flies).

Lately, Marvel would be better served to learn that lesson, than us. We've been getting some honey (some terrific art sneak peeks), but we've also been sprayed with vinegar a few times now too.


Overwhelm them with a positive response rather than the now typical, "Why does Marvel hate Omega/Alpha and us?" that they've been seeing. If I'm growing tired of it Marvel has to be well past their threshhold of tolerance. Let's vow to lighten up and be positive about the book, rather than always turning to the negative. I think it'll get us farther in the long run!

OK! Rant over!

Tom

Let's all be chipper cheerleaders? For a book not-so-subtly disquised as an Alpha Flight book, that has several non-Canadian heroes on a Canadian super team (apparently, for the sole reason to try and boost sales)? A book that's been downgraded from ongoing to mini (for some possible scary reasons)? A book that Joe is already making jokes about?

Tom, you may be tired of what you deem is negativity here, but don't you think some of us are tired of double-talk and potshots from these "supposed" professionals"? You can break your pom-poms out now...I'm going to wait and see if it's worth the effort to dig them out of the closet.

Dana

[SmurfInABlender]

The thing is it is impossible to get the glory of the original series. I Honestly though V2 was a good attempt at gettign Af back, I thought it was a vary interesting comic.. Of corse granted it still had room to grow and was written in a short sighted way but still it was nice to see soem new ideas thrown in there. But V3 was horrible, and who knows the future for Omega.. All I want to see is my favorite characters some what alive in the marvel universe. Honestly I'd be satisfied with Northstar and Aurora on the X-men or Sasquatch joining one of the many Avenger titles, or haveing a single run series. Heck Sasquatch as been in every single AF, and has pretty much been a constant member of the team, might as well give him his own series. As long as the AF characters are kept alive i'm happy. But they Killed them.. and in return for doign that we got an Ongoing series... which that was also killed. So the three we can hope for are Sasquatch Northstar and Aurora.. and hopefully Kyle Gibney to take over the Gaurdian spot for a while.

Namor has gone from one title to another, had bunches of mini series, been left alone to jsut float aroudn the Marvel Universe and still comes back time and time again, just not always the same...even when alpha disapears, its characters can never be kept gone too long, they will show up.

[Captain Primate]

A book that Joe is already making jokes about?

Can you provide a reference as to these jokes he's been making? Seriously, I'm all for complaining about what has been said, but I think its unfair to attribute something to someone that is either not true or taken out of context. I'm not accusing you of libel or anything, I just want to see the original statement.

[varo]

the quote was taken from a interview q did at nycc, where one of marvels editors pointed out that sasquatch has never looked so cool, in which joe replied "sasquatch has never looked cool" no big deal, but thats were its from.
as far as the title of the thread and your rant barnacle, i am fully aware that marvel is a corporation and corporations only stay afloat if they make money with products that sell, thanks for the lesson on finance though. but i was saying the title of this thread tongue in cheek as a joke, which is hard to relay on a message board.

it is just frustrating to hear tptb at marvel talk out both sides of their mouth.

and as far as doing my part i already have 10 copies of omega flights 1-3 pre-purchased at both mile high and midtown comics, i asked if the cashiers could hand them out to any customer that does not buy omega flight so they can read it and hopefully like it, i have also done the same at my local shop.

[cmdrkoenig67]

A book that Joe is already making jokes about?

Can you provide a reference as to these jokes he's been making? Seriously, I'm all for complaining about what has been said, but I think its unfair to attribute something to someone that is either not true or taken out of context. I'm not accusing you of libel or anything, I just want to see the original statement.

What Varo said above. In discussing Omega Flight...Joke Quesada states that "Sasquatch has never looked cool."

Dana

[Ahab]

I like the idea of sending Marvel positive feedback, as was mentioned in a previous post. Positive feedback from AF fans is going to stick in their memory more than negative, as there is already a stigma that the core group of Af fans is a prickly lot. :) Why not surprise them?

[Adam]

I don't think Tom's saying that we shouldn't feel frustrated, nor is he saying that we should blissfully ignore and swallow Marvel's blunders. It's just being goal oriented.

Being positive about this book could, however unlikely, help it gain readers and help it gain the favor of Marvel's higher ups. Being negative about it has no goal, it can effect no change for the better. If nothing else it helps poison people like Tom B against our "community" because we're feeding them nothing but bile.

I was a new reader and wandered onto Alpha Waves, I'd just see a lot of people feeling persecuted and angry. I can't imagine that person's going to walk away feeling more inclined to check the book out.

[Irisbleu]

Omega Flight could still become an on-going, their probally getting their sales figures now. Patience, I'm not jumping to conclusions yet.

Yes, I think we have to be patient.... We shall wait and see.... Saying that Marvel hates Omega/Alpha is maybe a bit far fetched now.

[Barnacle13]

Sure there are creators who love certain character, but if they don't like our favorites as much it doesn't mean they hate them. I've been on this site for a loooong time, and I don't think I ever remember it being as negative as it has been lately.

Why do you think that is? AF fans have been burned twice now (more so by the recent Volume Three)...Many of us are getting the feeling that we're going to be burned yet again (call us paranoid, but we do have sufficient reason to expect more).

We can all try to be positive, but there are nagging questions that Marvel has danced around (like which Alphans exactly are dead and why has the series been downgraded)...I think a few of us also dread the idea of the series coming out and that's where we might learn that they killed all of Alpha Flight, except Sasquatch (I for one will be beyond livid). Call me a pessimist, but I don't have high hopes for this series. I for one am afraid if this series is highly successful, that we will never see the real Alpha Flight again...Just various future incarnations of Omega. I'd rather see the original AF back in action, than another stand-in team (BTW Phil...Please keep any "Byrne circle jerk" comments to yourself, thanks).


Hopefully this will all change when the mini starts and folks have something else to talk about. Marvel is a corporation. In the end it means they answer to their consumers and their consumers' money. If Omega Flight sales top X-Men, Spider-man, and Avengers I guarantee Joe Q will be a huge Omega fan! We've already seen what response they have when flamed by the consumer. That has only increased their disdain for the characters and their fans.

Yet "Professional" people like Quesada and Brevoort can flame/disrespect AF and AF fans and that's okay with you? How can we keep a stiff upper lip, when they keep slapping our faces with insults to our intelligence or making constant jokes about characters we love and/or grew up with?

I think you may be reading into what I've written more than is there. Do I approve of the treatment we feel Alpha Flight and we in particular have been treated and the comments made by Marvel staff? Hell no! Do I think it gets us anywhere complaining about hurt feelings? Hell no!


I'd urge everyone here to step back take a deep breath and do something positive to make this book a success. When it is released, write Marvel and let them know what an incredible book it is.

...And if the book isn't incedible?

If the book isn't incredible then it deserves a quick 5 issue death! I won't spend my hard earned money on crap and I wouldn't recommend others do it either. If it's crap, pull it out of the bottom of your buddies bird cage if you have to have a copy...don't put money in Marvel's coffers for characters and stories you don't love.


Overwhelm them with a positive response rather than the now typical, "Why does Marvel hate Omega/Alpha and us?" that they've been seeing. If I'm growing tired of it Marvel has to be well past their threshhold of tolerance. Let's vow to lighten up and be positive about the book, rather than always turning to the negative. I think it'll get us farther in the long run!

OK! Rant over!

Tom

Let's all be chipper cheerleaders? For a book not-so-subtly disquised as an Alpha Flight book, that has several non-Canadian heroes on a Canadian super team (apparently, for the sole reason to try and boost sales)? A book that's been downgraded from ongoing to mini (for some possible scary reasons)? A book that Joe is already making jokes about?

Tom, you may be tired of what you deem is negativity here, but don't you think some of us are tired of double-talk and potshots from these "supposed" professionals"? You can break your pom-poms out now...I'm going to wait and see if it's worth the effort to dig them out of the closet.

Dana[/quote]

I'm tired of the double talk and potshots, too. But I think it serves no purpose to blast Marvel, Joe Q., or Tom B. How does that get us the Alpha Flight ongoing we all want? I'd much rather see the originals back at it than a horse faced god knock off and a Cap wannabe. I just don't see it happening any time soon. And for the record I still don't see why it matters what Joe Q. thinks about the book. I don't base my purchasing decisions on his feelings and I doubt anyone else does. A little positivity from the group though may open his eyes up ever so slightly to the fact that we're not just a bunch of bitter whiners.

I'm sure the move to a mini was a business decision. It's our job to show him it was the wrong decision. If 200 people just keep hammering on him for that decision it does nothing but further alienate him from this loyal fanbase. If we tell him what we do like about the series and promote it, maybe just maybe he'll hear us. Inprobable, but more likely than crying foul.

[Barnacle13]

the quote was taken from a interview q did at nycc, where one of marvels editors pointed out that sasquatch has never looked so cool, in which joe replied "sasquatch has never looked cool" no big deal, but thats were its from.
as far as the title of the thread and your rant barnacle, i am fully aware that marvel is a corporation and corporations only stay afloat if they make money with products that sell, thanks for the lesson on finance though. but i was saying the title of this thread tongue in cheek as a joke, which is hard to relay on a message board.

it is just frustrating to hear tptb at marvel talk out both sides of their mouth.

and as far as doing my part i already have 10 copies of omega flights 1-3 pre-purchased at both mile high and midtown comics, i asked if the cashiers could hand them out to any customer that does not buy omega flight so they can read it and hopefully like it, i have also done the same at my local shop.

Varo, as I've already said I think your idea of purchasing 10 copies to pass out to nonbuyers is a great one. It might win a new reader or two. I'm frustrated too! It just doesn't seem to me that a constant airing of my complaints will get me anything. I'm not trying to give Business 101 lessons either. I'm just trying to get us (and me as a part of us) to focus on the positive things we can do to impact the success of this series. Hopefully folks won't get frustrated with me for trying to keep it positive. I've seen some great ideas here, we just have to make them all work. And to do that will take effort. Effort better spent than complaining about Joe Q's or Tom B's pot shots. Again I could care less what they think about AF, OF, me, AlphaFlight.net, etc.

[varo]

i am extremely positive about this book. i really feel with the combination of oeming and kollins we will get a very good rendition of a supergroup based in Canada with ties to the original alpha.

the blatant blunders by the higher ups at marvel have me scratching my head though. thus some of the criticism. we have never just came out and attacked marvel, we have usually just reacted to negative news.

i apologize for some recent negative posts, i know they are getting old, its just that if i went to a automotive forum and complained there they may look at me like i have 3 heads. so this seemed like the best place to vent. :lol:

[Canucklehead]

"Q: Who has been given the task of coming up with superhero teams for each of the 50 states, and to what degree will those slots be filled with new characters?

TB: There’s no specific mandate to work out precisely what teams are going to be where just yet, so we’re going to let this idea grow organically and see where it takes us. Dan Slott will be dealing with some of this in America’s favorite comic book series, AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE."

Newsarama.com

Edit: On the lighter side, OF is mentioned in Wizard Magazine's "50 things that have changed during CW". We're #38! I don't know if that's good but I like exclamation marks!!!!!!!

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/003767985.cfm?page=2

[Mokole]

"and others"? More than Talisman and Guardian in time? :)

[Mokole]

With the reader and retailer reaction to the climax of Civil War, and the general interest in precisely what comes next for Tony Stark's Fifty State Initiative, it only made sense to us to promote Avengers: The Initiative to a full ongoing series, rather than just a limited,"
http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0703/06/index.htm

Ah that Tom B, pointing out indirectly that it wasn't fan response or demand or pre-orders that had any weight, but editorial decision making alone!

Still, Omega Flight has history, team, writer/artist strengths, and other advantages to change their minds...

[Le Messor]

And for the record I still don't see why it matters what Joe Q. thinks about the book. I don't base my purchasing decisions on his feelings and I doubt anyone else does.

Right now, I'm imagining reviewers saying things like:
"So bad, even the head of the company panned it."
"Not even the company liked their own book."
"No confidence in their own product; how good can it be?"

BTW, like Varo, if I can't whine here, where can I whine? :)
I only know (face-to-face-ish) one person who's heard of Alpha. Who told me a few days ago that he'd just heard about this new Omega Flight mini-series.
Where was Marvel's publicity machine?
And I am not that machine! I'd assumed the guy would already know about the series.

- Le Messor
"Decide what you want; decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work."
- H.L. Hunt

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...I'm concerned about why there is a less-than-optimistic feeling about the content of Omega Flight. I find the suggestion for Kolin's artwork helps, gives it more volume. Unless the fight with The Wrecking Crew is just horribly executed (and there should still be time to fix this, if that's a problem), I don't see how OF #1 could completely miss the mark. I just can't believe this could be messed up royally, still go to press, and be published. Jeez, I hope not.

I'm more worried about a powerhouse named "Daisy" in # 2. I'm just not feeling that, right now. I'm glad that USAgent is going to save Toronto, but I hope we hear some news about what the Alpha Flight characters are going to do.

I hope somebody connected with the book has something to post to quiet these fears.

Ben, any word about when that article in the paper will be published?

Will anybody be getting a preview/rough copy of OF# 1 before it goes on sale? [I'm assuming there are such things]

[Flightpath07]

Wow.
Hey, welcome me back, fellow AF/OF fans! I had surgery a couple of weeks ago, and have not had much chance to get to my computer until now.
(in case you are wondering, I had my soul removed, because apparently as an Alpha Flight fan, I do not need one anymore! lol - just kidding!)

Ah, i have missed the rantings so much! lol

Seriously though, it is good to be back.

Now, on to business...(Sorry if I am long-winded, I have a lot of catching up to do)...
I like a lot of what cmdrkoenig67 has had to say in this subject (and in others on this board). Very thoughtful and interesting and intelligent stuff, yet still passionate. Love it. Is it cynical and bitter? No question! But i still agree with most of it.

SmurfInABlender wrote:
The thing is it is impossible to get the glory of the original series. I Honestly though V2 was a good attempt at gettign Af back, I thought it was a very interesting comic.. Of course granted it still had room to grow and was written in a short sighted way but still it was nice to see some new ideas thrown in there.

I agree, Smurf. I enjoyed Volume II immensely (although i am missing a few issues of it). Was it like Volume I? No. And that made it interesting, because it was different, yet still entertaining, and still delaing with the heroes that we all love. It was AF.

SmurfInABlender wrote:
As long as the AF characters are kept alive i'm happy. But they Killed them.. and in return for doing that we got an Ongoing series... which that was also killed. So the three we can hope for are Sasquatch Northstar and Aurora.. and hopefully Kyle Gibney to take over the Guardian spot for a while.

Yay! Another Kyle Gibney reference! Go Kyle!
And I agree, I think we all agree...being downgraded felt horrible to us. We deserve better. AF deserves better. But, we have to live with what we get, because apparently complaining to Marvel only pisses them off, it doesn't make them change anything.

Ahab wrote:
I like the idea of sending Marvel positive feedback, as was mentioned in a previous post. Positive feedback from AF fans is going to stick in their memory more than negative, as there is already a stigma that the core group of Af fans is a prickly lot. Why not surprise them?

I can agree with this. Positive reinforcement is a good thing. So, as soon as they do something Positive (sorry, but downgrading from ongoing to mini is a Negative, and dissing fans is a Negative) I will be sure to tell them how great they are. However...as fans, we are Expected to be emotional (fans=fanatics). If they want an emotional response from us when they do something that we like, then they have to expect and accept that we have every right to be angry with them (and express it to them) when they do something that they do not like. It is a two-way street. Nuff said.

Varo wrote:
i am extremely positive about this book. i really feel with the combination of oeming and kollins we will get a very good rendition of a supergroup based in Canada with ties to the original alpha.
the blatant blunders by the higher ups at marvel have me scratching my head though. thus some of the criticism. we have never just came out and attacked marvel, we have usually just reacted to negative news.

i apologize for some recent negative posts, i know they are getting old, its just that if i went to a automotive forum and complained there they may look at me like i have 3 heads. so this seemed like the best place to vent.

That's right - we do not attack the company, only there policies and attitudes that alienate the fans and contrive to make the series sell Less (potentially). They need to positively reinforce their Own Series - why should we be responsible for doing that? They are a money-making company - if they are not putting enough effort into promoting OF...think about that. When you really stop and think about that...it is a little scary, what that says.

And..."hip-hip-hooray" for the 3-headed automotive monster! Will this creature be appearing soon in it's own monthly title from Marvel? lol

cheers!
good to be back.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Wow.
Hey, welcome me back, fellow AF/OF fans! I had surgery a couple of weeks ago, and have not had much chance to get to my computer until now.
(in case you are wondering, I had my soul removed, because apparently as an Alpha Flight fan, I do not need one anymore! lol - just kidding!)

Ah, i have missed the rantings so much! lol

Seriously though, it is good to be back.

Welcome back.


Now, on to business...(Sorry if I am long-winded, I have a lot of catching up to do)...
I like a lot of what cmdrkoenig67 has had to say in this subject (and in others on this board). Very thoughtful and interesting and intelligent stuff, yet still passionate. Love it. Is it cynical and bitter? No question! But i still agree with most of it.

Cynical and bitter?!!! Why you---!!!!!! :evil:



SmurfInABlender wrote:
The thing is it is impossible to get the glory of the original series. I Honestly though V2 was a good attempt at gettign Af back, I thought it was a very interesting comic.. Of course granted it still had room to grow and was written in a short sighted way but still it was nice to see some new ideas thrown in there.

I agree, Smurf. I enjoyed Volume II immensely (although i am missing a few issues of it). Was it like Volume I? No. And that made it interesting, because it was different, yet still entertaining, and still delaing with the heroes that we all love. It was AF.

Isn't saying that something is impossible, the very pinnacle of negativity? I can't say that we'll never have the glory that was the original, because I don't know that...There is every possibility that we could have Alpha Flight back and it could be amazing....How's that for possitive? :P



SmurfInABlender wrote:
As long as the AF characters are kept alive i'm happy. But they Killed them.. and in return for doing that we got an Ongoing series... which that was also killed. So the three we can hope for are Sasquatch Northstar and Aurora.. and hopefully Kyle Gibney to take over the Guardian spot for a while.

Yay! Another Kyle Gibney reference! Go Kyle!
And I agree, I think we all agree...being downgraded felt horrible to us. We deserve better. AF deserves better. But, we have to live with what we get, because apparently complaining to Marvel only pisses them off, it doesn't make them change anything.

I wouldn't be so sure about that...Squeeky wheel and all that...



Ahab wrote:
I like the idea of sending Marvel positive feedback, as was mentioned in a previous post. Positive feedback from AF fans is going to stick in their memory more than negative, as there is already a stigma that the core group of Af fans is a prickly lot. Why not surprise them?

I can agree with this. Positive reinforcement is a good thing. So, as soon as they do something Positive (sorry, but downgrading from ongoing to mini is a Negative, and dissing fans is a Negative) I will be sure to tell them how great they are. However...as fans, we are Expected to be emotional (fans=fanatics). If they want an emotional response from us when they do something that we like, then they have to expect and accept that we have every right to be angry with them (and express it to them) when they do something that they do not like. It is a two-way street. Nuff said.

Good for you, FP...



Varo wrote:
i am extremely positive about this book. i really feel with the combination of oeming and kollins we will get a very good rendition of a supergroup based in Canada with ties to the original alpha.
the blatant blunders by the higher ups at marvel have me scratching my head though. thus some of the criticism. we have never just came out and attacked marvel, we have usually just reacted to negative news.

i apologize for some recent negative posts, i know they are getting old, its just that if i went to a automotive forum and complained there they may look at me like i have 3 heads. so this seemed like the best place to vent.

That's right - we do not attack the company, only there policies and attitudes that alienate the fans and contrive to make the series sell Less (potentially). They need to positively reinforce their Own Series - why should we be responsible for doing that? They are a money-making company - if they are not putting enough effort into promoting OF...think about that. When you really stop and think about that...it is a little scary, what that says.

And..."hip-hip-hooray" for the 3-headed automotive monster! Will this creature be appearing soon in it's own monthly title from Marvel? lol

cheers!
good to be back.

Bravo, sir!

Dana

P.S. If the killing of the original Alpha Flight isn't enough proof that Marvel execs dislike/hate/despise Alpha Flight, then what other proof do you people need?

[Flightpath07]

If the killing of the original Alpha Flight isn't enough proof that Marvel execs dislike/hate/despise Alpha Flight, then what other proof do you people need?

I agree. Only thing I would add to that , is this...
rather than dislike/hate/despise , I would say that perhaps disrespect is the proper word to use.
And, if they prove me wrong, then hurray, I win! Because i get an awesome, ongoing comic, where my favourite characters come back from the (stillas yet unofficial) "dead" and get to run amok with a couple of American heroes and fight major bad-a$# villains from the States as well as their old villains from days of yore.
And if I am right?
Then i cry a lot.
:(

[kozzi24]

The bottom line is selling units. That's business, not personal.
That said, I somehow don't think Marvel's anti-AF instances--of which there are many through the years--are strictly business. People get hired and fired in the professional business world all the time, not on what's best for the company, but due to personalities and politics.

With Marvel and AF, I think the personal bias is anti-Byrne.

AF is, I think, Byrne's only headline CREATION for Marvel.

Mantlo's respectful use of AF following Byrne's departure only seemed to last as long as Byrne did with Marvel. The gutting of AF seemed to coincide with the Byrne/Shooter blow-out centered around FF.

After Shooter left Marvel, Byrne returned in some capacity. He was given "created by credits" on later issues of AF, around the same time he did a few covers.

Marvel needs to do something with their properties every few years to avoid losing the copyrights. It would not surprise me that they would do projects that may prevent benefit to Byrne. The man is notorious, to legendary proportions, for being difficult and egotistical. AF premeired in the 1980's, when creator rights were emerging from the prior blanket work-for hire arrangements, so Byrne may get some residuals from his creations.

Just some speculation, in what seems to rectify the pattern of AF's history with their owning corporation.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Some very good points there, Kozzi.

Byrne and Quesada have a not-so-friendly relationship too, ever since the cancellation of X-Men: The Hidden Years (which was selling pretty well, when it was cancelled). There's a lot of bad blood between Byrne and Marvel (during the Shooter years and then later with Quesada).

Dana

[Phil]

Every Marvel comic I've picked up in the last 2 weeks has had an advert for Omega Flight... that's more advertising than Volume 3 of Alpha Flight got.

[Ahab]

If they want an emotional response from us when they do something that we like, then they have to expect and accept that we have every right to be angry with them (and express it to them) when they do something that they do not like. It is a two-way street. Nuff said.


You are absolutely correct, it IS a two way street. But I highly doubt that many have used the street to go both directions. I would contend that Marvel probably does not receive as many positive comments from AF fans as negative, even when there is good news out there (such as when OF was first announced). Yes, it could be argued that Marvel staff do not have a great track record of how they have handled AF, but the fact of the matter is that there is more incentive to send a letter or email when a fan is unhappy than when they are happy. I've had enough experience working with the public to know that. There's no need to preach to the choir about how AF/OF has been handled and how unfair it has been, as I am aware of all of it. I just don't believe that AF fans as a whole have been equally positive as negative when the opportunity to show it has presented itself. And despite all of the bad, there has been opportunity.

[cmdrkoenig67]

If they want an emotional response from us when they do something that we like, then they have to expect and accept that we have every right to be angry with them (and express it to them) when they do something that they do not like. It is a two-way street. Nuff said.


You are absolutely correct, it IS a two way street. But I highly doubt that many have used the street to go both directions. I would contend that Marvel probably does not receive as many positive comments from AF fans as negative, even when there is good news out there (such as when OF was first announced). Yes, it could be argued that Marvel staff do not have a great track record of how they have handled AF, but the fact of the matter is that there is more incentive to send a letter or email when a fan is unhappy than when they are happy. I've had enough experience working with the public to know that. There's no need to preach to the choir about how AF/OF has been handled and how unfair it has been, as I am aware of all of it. I just don't believe that AF fans as a whole have been equally positive as negative when the opportunity to show it has presented itself. And despite all of the bad, there has been opportunity.

Huh??...So AF fans are a negative lot, more so than other comic fans? How do you figure that? I think you're assuming a lot here.

Dana

[Phil]

Huh??...So AF fans are a negative lot, more so than other comic fans? How do you figure that? I think you're assuming a lot here.

I agree with Dana here.

While I do think there's a lot of negativity here, I feel it's based upon passion which is usually a good thing, and there's far less negativity here than elsewhere on the internet involving other characters/creators etc...

[Le Messor]

I would contend that Marvel probably does not receive as many positive comments from AF fans as negative, even when there is good news out there (such as when OF was first announced).

Assuming, of course, we saw that as good news.
People keep saying 'vote with your wallet'. Money talks; but it speaks in a very garbled voice. (I've said all this before, *sigh*)

(Not directed at Ahab per se: )
When Marvel release a brand new series, filled with all new characters that we've never seen before, in style that's nothing like AF, that tells stories that aren't like AF stories (ie: largely mystical, and character-driven), then throws the word 'Flight' and a greek letter on the cover, it fails. Then they tell us that there's no market for 'Alpha Flight'.
My money wasn't trying to say that. It was -trying- to say 'Alpha Flight is my series. I don't know who you are'.
But, of course, Marvel reinterprets it until my meanining is lost.

If I don't send in a letter -which will, by definition, be negative- how will I get my point across?

(A few weeks ago, we were in a long line in a grocery store. A new checkout opened up, and a manager told us we could move to it. We declined. I realised later that the manager might interpret that as 'No way, we hate that guy on the new checkout'. I'd worked with him before and I liked him. We just liked the girl on our checkout so much, we'd deliberately sought her out. I was worried we'd got the guy fired, but I saw him in the store yesterday. The point? People will interpret our actions to fit their own prejudi.)


Yes, it could be argued that Marvel staff do not have a great track record of how they have handled AF, but the fact of the matter is that there is more incentive to send a letter or email when a fan is unhappy than when they are happy. I've had enough experience working with the public to know that.

True. It's human nature. So why should AF fans be any different? I believe at least three members of this board are human.

- Le Messor
"Tell them that it's human nature--why, why, why does he do it that way?"
- Michael Jackson

[kozzi24]

Yes, it could be argued that Marvel staff do not have a great track record of how they have handled AF, but the fact of the matter is that there is more incentive to send a letter or email when a fan is unhappy than when they are happy.

Except in guest appearances. The Black Panther cameo was well done.

Derivitives of AF have been handled well in Exiles throughout that title's run.

We may not have like what happened to Aurora and Jeffries during the course, but they were basically handled well in Weapon X.

The Wolverine appearances by Tieri also went over well, and the complaints about the prior Wolverine appearance seemed limited to the "impossibility" (continuity-wise) of Snowbird's resurrection.

It's when it comes to an Alpha title that Marvel consistely fouls up.

[DelBubs]

I think the term negative is being bandied about a lot because our feelings re what is going on are being highlighted. If we look from the point of view of
Positives
New ongoing Flight Book
Tied into the MU
Top notch creative team

Negatives
Book now a mini (because Marvel don't want to flood the market with team books... Loners, Champions, New Warriors, Avengers Initiative, Mighty Avengers, Clandestine etc)
Marvel EIC calls out OF/AF fans, basically calling us stupid.

Negativity breeds negativity, but given the circumstances, I think we've been pretty co-herent in our protests. At the end of the day we are passionate about the team, but haven't been given anything decent in years. The first chance for that to change is taken away and we get called out for it. Phils right, passion not negativity.

[Ahab]

Huh??...So AF fans are a negative lot, more so than other comic fans? How do you figure that? I think you're assuming a lot here.

I agree with Dana here.

While I do think there's a lot of negativity here, I feel it's based upon passion which is usually a good thing, and there's far less negativity here than elsewhere on the internet involving other characters/creators etc...

The assumption being made here is that I said that AF fans are more negative than other comic fans. I never said that, nor did I mean to infer it. I don't know much about the fandom of other comic series, but I suspect that when it comes to behavior, there are a lot of groups out there that make us look like a girl scout troup in comparison. Comic forums seem to be ripe with rude, disrespectful people. On the contrary, I think everyone here does a pretty decent job of being respectful with one another. The only point that I was trying to make was that Marvel is obviously not considering AF fans in the best light, whether they perceive our letters as negative, passionate or whatever you want to call it. Being overwhelmingly positive about things for a change, in a letter sent to them, would probably make them fall over and take notice.

[Barnacle13]

The assumption being made here is that I said that AF fans are more negative than other comic fans. I never said that, nor did I mean to infer it. I don't know much about the fandom of other comic series, but I suspect that when it comes to behavior, there are a lot of groups out there that make us look like a girl scout troup in comparison. Comic forums seem to be ripe with rude, disrespectful people. On the contrary, I think everyone here does a pretty decent job of being respectful with one another. The only point that I was trying to make was that Marvel is obviously not considering AF fans in the best light, whether they perceive our letters as negative, passionate or whatever you want to call it. Being overwhelmingly positive about things for a change, in a letter sent to them, would probably make them fall over and take notice.

This was exactly the point I was trying to make. I'm sure there are much more passionate flamers of Marvel in the world. This group does a very good job of keeping things tongue in cheek even when firing off a salvo. I think though that Marvel would be floored if they heard some positive feedback. I fully support everyone's right to be disheartened by the recent news, in fact it's definitely taken me time to put my negative thoughts aside. But I'll give it a chance and hope that it leads to something more, though I'm not sure what that is with most of my favorites dead.

[Le Messor]

Every Marvel comic I've picked up in the last 2 weeks has had an advert for Omega Flight... that's more advertising than Volume 3 of Alpha Flight got.

I didn't see them. Which comics did you pick up? If I have the same ones, I'd like to look them up. (Or, when I get them later).

(I saw an ad for Gunslinger in a lot of them; it was annoying. 1) because it was carboard and ripping itself out of its staples in almost every issue it was in.
2) I didn't need it. I bought Gunslinger in the same batch as all those ads! :/ )

- Le Messor
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H.L. Mencken"

[cmdrkoenig67]

The assumption being made here is that I said that AF fans are more negative than other comic fans. I never said that, nor did I mean to infer it. I don't know much about the fandom of other comic series, but I suspect that when it comes to behavior, there are a lot of groups out there that make us look like a girl scout troup in comparison. Comic forums seem to be ripe with rude, disrespectful people. On the contrary, I think everyone here does a pretty decent job of being respectful with one another. The only point that I was trying to make was that Marvel is obviously not considering AF fans in the best light, whether they perceive our letters as negative, passionate or whatever you want to call it. Being overwhelmingly positive about things for a change, in a letter sent to them, would probably make them fall over and take notice.

"Being overwhelmingly positive about things for a change"? I don't know...It sounds to me like you're saying we're usually negative.

Dana

[Flightpath07]

Le Messor wrote - True. It's human nature. So why should AF fans be any different? I believe at least three members of this board are human.

Is this a researched conclusion? I was thinking more like 1 1/2, tops.


Barnacle 13 wrote - I fully support everyone's right to be disheartened by the recent news, in fact it's definitely taken me time to put my negative thoughts aside. But I'll give it a chance and hope that it leads to something more, though I'm not sure what that is with most of my favorites dead.

I agree. I will get the series. I will be happy that at least somebody out there wants to do something that has slightly to do with what I consider to be the team called Alpha Flight. It just seems a real travesty that some higher-ups had to decide to kill off my faves first.

( I don't think I will ever understand, or support, that decision ...)

[Le Messor]

Le Messor wrote - True. It's human nature. So why should AF fans be any different? I believe at least three members of this board are human.
Is this a researched conclusion? I was thinking more like 1 1/2, tops.

:oops: Okay, you caught me.
I made it up.

- Le Messor
"89.34934% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

[Flightpath07]

Ah, Le Messor...
How great it must be to live in Australia!

There, or so I have heard it said, everything that you throw away comes back to you.
That pretty much guarantees that you will see a resurfacing of Alpha Flight then, right?
:wink:

[Canucklehead]

Ah, Le Messor...
How great it must be to live in Australia!

There, or so I have heard it said, everything that you throw away comes back to you.

:shock: Ex-girlfriend hell.....

[Le Messor]

There, or so I have heard it said, everything that you throw away comes back to you.
That pretty much guarantees that you will see a resurfacing of Alpha Flight then, right?

That was a lot of fun until I tried throwing away v3...

[Flightpath07]

There, or so I have heard it said, everything that you throw away comes back to you.
That pretty much guarantees that you will see a resurfacing of Alpha Flight then, right?

That was a lot of fun until I tried throwing away v3...

Ouch... :lol: you guys are making my surgery incision ache! :lol: Stop it, stop it... :lol:

[Garry/Al-Fan]

The bottom line is selling units. That's business, not personal. That said, I somehow don't think Marvel's anti-AF instances--of which there are many through the years--are strictly business...With Marvel and AF, I think the personal bias is anti-Byrne....Mantlo's respectful use of AF following Byrne's departure only seemed to last as long as Byrne did with Marvel. The gutting of AF seemed to coincide with the Byrne/Shooter blow-out centered around FF....

I would call the Mantlo era a lot of things, but respectful is not one of them.

Let's start with NORTHSTAR:

" 'So far the least interesting to me are Aurora and Northstar. John played them up the most, and really went heavily into their origins, but he made so many changes in them that it's almost impossible for me to say what the norm is any more.' " - Bill Mantlo quote from article "The Big Switch" by Peter Sanderson in Amazing Heroes # 76, page 29.

Mantlo's very first issue sets out to establish Alpha Flight as a team by having Gary Cody show up and refund the group at government expense. Not only doesn't Northstar object to being on the government's dole, he must have completely forgotten that (a) he has his own place, and (b) he has his own money, enough to finance AF if he wanted to. Second, Northstar stays with the team after finding out that he and Aurora cancel each other out only to make snarky remarks about Heather's leadership. Neither Northstar nor Aurora should have been so distraught or clumsy or stupid that they could not eventually see their effectiveness was severely limiting to their teammates.

AF# 31: Puck gives a recommendation on behalf of AF, Madison offers Lionel membership into AF even though he isn't even a member himself, and Northstar chimes in about Lionel resuming his medical career after he has attacked AF and turned the the hospital staff into monsters. What proof did any of them have that Lionel was a real doctor?

And Aurora didn't really do much except drive Roger Bochs insane (and survive getting slapped by a Sentinel) all the way up to the point she was written out of book. She wasn't even drawn that attractively either, IMO.

"About Mantlo's first issue, John Byrne says, 'I think it's great. I've only seen the one plot, but he has captured each and every character. He knows exactly who those people are.' " - "The Big Switch", pages 24 -25.

Puck. He didn't have consistency within the Mantlo run itself, let alone with what came before. If Puck is so non-powerful, how can he keep RAZER inside him, throughout his disembowlment and recuperation?

"PUCK - Eugene Judd, bouncer. A normal man, in the sense that he doesn't have any superpowers. Abnormal, in that he's three-foot-six and weighs about two hundred pounds...He is a super-fighter---trained in kung fu, savate, and anything else that comes along. He's real good at it." - John Byrne quote from "ALPHA FLIGHT" by Patrick O'Neill in Marvel Age #2, second and third pages of article.

Sasquatch, brought back as a woman. Snowbird, killed! By Heather!!
Michael, runs off like a whiney ***** ("I can't trust my own instincts and I can't take orders from you.").

"Summing up what he intends to do with Alpha Flight, Bill Mantlo concludes, 'I feel that John laid the foundation. I'm going to try to build the house.' " - from "The Big Switch", page 29.

Respectful? I think not.

[Flightpath07]

Hey, those are some great quotes, Garry/Al-fan, thanks for those!
I am bust trying to dissect how Mantlo ruined AF myself right now on my blog, and it sure does seem that the further into it he went, the worse things got, doesn't it?

[cmdrkoenig67]

I agree, Garry. Even though Mantlo said he wanted to build a house on the foundation Byrne started...It's much more like Byrne built the foundation and the house of Alpha, but when Mantlo came along...He brought his wrecking ball with him. He started swinging at the house, smashing parts of it away, till there was not a lot left of Byrne's house.

Mantlo had done some amazing stories in Rom, Micronauts and other books, but his Alpha Flight run seemed to be nothing more than the ruination of what came before (the Byrne AF).

Dana

[Flightpath07]

I agree, Garry. Even though Mantlo said he wanted to build a house on the foundation Byrne started...It's much more like Byrne built the foundation and the house of Alpha, but when Mantlo came along...He brought his wrecking ball with him. He started swinging at the house, smashing parts of it away, till there was not a lot left of Byrne's house.

Mantlo had done some amazing stories in Rom, Micronauts and other books, but his Alpha Flight run seemed to be nothing more than the ruination of what came before (the Byrne AF).

Dana
In my opinion (for what it is worth), issue 50 of volume one was the worst AF comic ever conceived. In one fell swoop, Mantlo ruined pretty much every charcater. And things got worse from there, with his complicated love triangles (puck-heather-madison) - actually, you can almost throw Logan in there too, since mantlo made him out to be in love with Heather too! The way he treated (mis-treated) Puck was an outrage. For the most part, his Beta Flight was an abysmal failure - he tried so hard to make the comic a family feel, with Madison and Heather as the parents, Walter/Wanda as the gender-confused uncle/aunt, and then the kids all hanging around. Somewhere along the way, Mantlo lost sight of the fact that AF already was a family, Byrne originally created them that way, but Mantlo destroyed one family and tried to build his own warped idea of a family from their ashes. It didn't seem to work too well.

I guess the guy wsn't a total failure. he wrote some decent stories and all, and he tried to keep the comic alive. But his respect for John Byrne and John's creation, like that of the rest of Marvel, was not there. And it showed.

Nuff said.

[Ottawa Renegade]

yup, marvel is a corporation. Yup, marvel is interested in the bottom line. Yup, there has been a lot of fan boy/girl *****ing lately. However, Marvel thrives (both commercially and critically) on the attachment that readers feel to characters. As a result, it is in their best interest to treat fans with respect.

Exactly. Marvel doesn't hate OF/AF. They just don't have a clue as to what the fans want. Or if they do, they have no idea as to how to execute it.

[-K-M-]

Sadly it was recently released that Luke Cage is going to be getting an on-going in '07. So much for saturation.

[Flightpath07]

Sadly it was recently released that Luke Cage is going to be getting an on-going in '07. So much for saturation.

Luke Cage, in my opinion, was always nothing without Iron Fist.

I think Dolly freakin' Parton has a better chance of landing an ongoing comic book series than Alpha Flight does...
sigh...

I'm not disgruntled. I'm not. I'm just really seriously gruntled.

[Le Messor]

Every Marvel comic I've picked up in the last 2 weeks has had an advert for Omega Flight... that's more advertising than Volume 3 of Alpha Flight got.
I didn't see them. Which comics did you pick up? If I have the same ones, I'd like to look them up. (Or, when I get them later).

Okay, this week's batch had a couple;
Bullet Points #5,
Uncanny #484

a half-page ad, above that ridiculous anti-marijuana ad. (Like you need to smoke marijuana to not want to walk your dog!)

- Le Messor
"Did I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself."
- Walt Whitman

[Ottawa Renegade]

Oh yeah. Squadron Supreme: Hyperion vs Nighthawk has that one too.

[SephirothsKiller]

Sadly it was recently released that Luke Cage is going to be getting an on-going in '07. So much for saturation.

X-Men: First Class is now an ongoing too. :wink:

[Ottawa Renegade]

Sadly it was recently released that Luke Cage is going to be getting an on-going in '07. So much for saturation.

X-Men: First Class is now an ongoing too. :wink:

I'm hearing rumours of a Dolly Parton ongoing too. Flightpath07 is gonna flip... :twisted:

[cmdrkoenig67]

Sadly it was recently released that Luke Cage is going to be getting an on-going in '07. So much for saturation.

X-Men: First Class is now an ongoing too. :wink:

Cripes! A crap, "reinvention of the past" series gets an ongoing now? Marvel sinks lower.

Dana

[SephirothsKiller]

A person over on the CBR forums just reported this:

"I was at the WWLA X-Men Panel today. Newsrama didn't include everything that was said.
Andy Schmidt is a huge Lockheed fan and topic of Lockheed kept coming up over and over. Andy would love to do a Lockheed solo title. He told Chris Gage to add Lockheed to World War Hulk X-Men."

Emphasis mine.

[Flightpath07]

Sadly it was recently released that Luke Cage is going to be getting an on-going in '07. So much for saturation.

X-Men: First Class is now an ongoing too. :wink:

I'm hearing rumours of a Dolly Parton ongoing too. Flightpath07 is gonna flip... :twisted:


Consider me flipped. :roll:

By the way, hope everybody had a good and safe St. Paddy's Day!