Civil War: The Initiative- (SPOILERS!!) Alpha Flight related

[Guardian]

Well I just got home and read the CW Int. one-shot. It has the little story with Sassy holding the Guardian suit showing the bastard mailman it. (We've seen the art before)

Well, I'm sorry to report that Alpha Flight is dead. Everyone but Sassy died against the Collective. Sassy says so himself.

And my worst fear has come to light. The mailman will be wearing the Guardian suit to learn to control his powers and to "honor" everyone that he killed, by being a hero for Canada. I'm so pissed............... :evil:

Mac, Heather, Shaman, Puck..their all dead. :evil:

Long live Alpha Flight.

This news (especially about the mailman wearing the suit) my have me not even consider reading the OF mini now.

I'd go into detail more, but I've gotta get back to work soon.

[Adam]

There's a 5 page preview involving Walt and Michael here:

http://forum.alphaflight.net/posting.php?mode=reply&t=1945


I'll wait and read this before I pass judgment on it. As for Omega Flight, as long as it's a good story and carries the threads of Alpha I'm along for the ride regardless of who's in the suit.

I'm not going to get pissed about this, since I'm past being pissed about the Alpha death. I'm happy that Walt survived at least and we know that death is never very final for comic characters.

I'm interested to see how Michael being in the suit becomes a point of conflict and drama within the book. So long as it serves some purpose to the story I'm game.

[-K-M-]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Mike tell us Mike wouldn't be in the suit? I'm pissed he is.

[Guardian]

The deaths of Heather, even Mac and the others I can handle. But putting the mailman in the Guardian suit is just plain stupid.

I'm just pissed with alot about comics these passed few weeks. The ending of Civil War, the revelations in the Initiative, and the events in the Captain America book have really annoyed me.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'm not going to say "I told you so"...But I will say...This sucks. Some of you are okay with the originals being killed off? I'm truly disappointed in Marvel and my fellow AF fans.

I'm seriously considering not even picking this OF crap up now.

Dana

[varo]

i really don't mind it and it makes sense. guys, mac and heather are dead. who else did you want in the suit?

makes sense, he is wearing it to honor the team he unwillingly killed, at least its not some random "hey lets stick this guy in the suit"

[Ben]

a few points:

1. I won't condemn a character we really haven't gotten to know yet. I think that Mike could have some interesting potential.

2. AF may be dead, but people are talking about them more than I can ever remember.

3. Dead doesn't mean dead. If they have to get "knocked off" to get the attention they need to have a viable series, so be it, characters can come back, but not if no one cares about them, talks about them, or reads about them.

Ben

[Powersurge]

Hey, I was just thinking that, as they saw fit to put an American in the Weapon Alpha battlesuit/uniform, and one that killed our native hero-team to boot, well, maybe now that Steve Rogers is dead they can stick, say, a reformed bin Laden in the Cap. America uniform? Or maybe a reformed Graviton?

Whaddaya think? How would that go over? :wink:

[SephirothsKiller]

I'm breaking Lent for this.


I feel that this is an extremely poor move. All of it. The idea that he's working for the team is a poor decision, and the idea that everyone died but Sasquatch... I expected at least a few others to have survived but quit... The power level of these characters doesn't make sense. Worse off is the fact that Oeming said on his boards at Jinx that it was a move to get attention for the readers...

Now I may just be a crazy patriot and all of that, but I'm not sure that I understand why an American is wearing the Guardian suit. This can be directly seen as a metaphor that Canadianism is a superficial guise, something I don't appreciate. There isn't any reason for the move, Mike could learn to control his powers without the suit. Why after all would Sasquatch want to honour his dead friend this way? Especially since the suit could be worn by someone else... I don't know maybe a CANADIAN!?

Like Ben said I won't condemn the character, but I'm more than ready to condemn the concept.

I really don't like the fact that we have a grand total of two characters on a Canadian team who are actually Canadian. (If Sasquatchstays.) Basically the whole vibe seems to be shaping up into a "Canada can't take care of themselves" monologue. I feel almost as if Canada is being depicted as a third world country that the States has oil interests in. This feeling grew in Choosing sides, now it has been confirmed. Oeming did say that he was using this "to do is comment on how America is perceived" I didn't think that meant that Canada was going to be a sidebar...

I long for volume 3 to come back.....

New characters are being introduced all the time in the MU, and the new Initiative ongoing is made up of mostly obscure characters, and yet it is completely inconceivable that any more super powered Canadians decided to throw their hat in to the ring? I feel slighted on behalf of my country.

I'm not trying to say that the comic is evil. A good story is a good story. If it has a good story I'll buy it, and I'll read it. However it isn't remotely an Alpha Flight book to me and I am not viewing it as a Canadian anymore team anymore. The team is no more Canadian then if the RCMP went ahead and let the NYPD operate up here.

I was originally gonna buy several copies of OF and get my LCS store owner to hand some out, even though I'm a student with no cash. Now I'll just buy one copy for myself.

Joe Q said that this time he thinks Alpha fans will get their butts in gear and support their title. I sure know I I'll support an Alpha Flight comic when one comes up to support.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'm with SephirothsKiller, Powersurge and any other Canadian who feels this is a slap in the face.

I'm not even Canadian, but I'm totally disgusted by this terrible idea No American should be slapped into a Canadian-flag costume, just for pennance. It's ridiculous.

I'm not sure what to be more pissed about...AF dead or this American as Vindicator/Guardian atrocity.

Dana

[Mokole]

Mailman Mike as Guardian? If true, sounds like OF may be Lobedellesque, which in no way is good, no way.

Killing off all of AF, then putting a mailman, American no less, in the suit, is suicide.

Can Marvel say, "What do you mean sales fell 10% across the board??"

If we're lucky, Mailman Mike will turn out to be a Department H project who is actually Canadian and has some reason to be Guardian. And that Wild Child will replace Steve Rogers as Captain America.

Or maybe Mailman Guardian is not true, or he'll be killed by the Wrecking Crew and the real next Guardian will step forward.

Yes, we'll have to wait and see what Mr. Oeming writes but like all of you, I have a minimum level of 'respect' that I want to see. And if things keep going the way they are, I'll drop OF after issue #1 and swear off Marvel forever. I've done it before, one business even went out of business after they screwed me, my big mouth cost them big time.

And people say Joe Q and Tom B aren't against AF or OF? Proof, please. :evil:

If OF #1 sucks, Make Mine DC!!

[syvalois]

It's the first thing a don't really like about Oeming plans on Omega Flight. Since mailman mike is almost a blank character, I don't mind the character. It's the principal of putting an american in a suit that symbolize the canadian identity that I really don't like.

Maybe Oeming will suprise me, I don't know. I'm still on the wait and see mode.

[Obsidian3d]

There are a lot of things I have to say at the moment, but none of them are nice. So I'll simply do as my mom told me and not say anything at all.

[SpaceGuardian]

I think Marvel really went over the line by not having a Canadian in the suit.....Alpha Flight WAS a Canadian superteam when last I checked and with US Agent and a non-Canadian in the Guardian suit, it makes it look like Canada is the US's 51st state, complete with its own "Initiative" Superteam. It would have been a simple matter to "un-kill" James and have him on the team, creating more of a partnership with the US rather than a puppet-state. Personally, and I'll admit to bias, AF isn't AF without a Hudson in the suit. There wouldn't even BE an AF without James and Heather. I'm seriously considering dropping OF as well. At least Vol. 3 kept the Canadian team CANADIAN.
Maybe Marvel will come to its senses and we can have a "Reunioun" mini-series next year for the 25th anniversary of Vol. 1

I'll stop ranting now

[Mokole]

I think Marvel really went over the line by not having a Canadian in the suit.....Alpha Flight WAS a Canadian superteam when last I checked and with US Agent and a non-Canadian in the Guardian suit, it makes it look like Canada is the US's 51st state, complete with its own "Initiative" Superteam.

I think you're on to the point. In Marvel 616, Canada is soon to be the 51st state.

Anybody ask Mike Oeming if this is true, so I can cut my order to Omega Flight.

Funny, Bill Rosemann emailed my son about "Why only OF"? Now he's going to find out why.

[Corvus]

Well, that pretty much kills my interest in buying Omega Flight.

A Non-american, and the guy who killed AF in the Guardian suit?

Pass.

[varo]

you know, i totally forgot about the whole "american wearing a canadian national flag" angle.

you guys are right. kinda sac-relig.


does alaska count as north canada?

[Transmetropolitan]

does alaska count as north canada?


Speaking as someone who grew up in Fairbanks (about a half hour's drive from where the Collective touched down, hilariously enough)- Not really.

There are cultural similarities between Alaska, and, say, Yukon, but there is a distinct identity.


We're closer to being Canucks, than, say, Californians, but still no cigar.

EDIT: Of course, for all I know, the boys in New York don;t realize that Alaska's a State... :roll: Part of the common ground is the lack ofregard we get in mainstream culture.

I'm kinda sad.

I hate being right.

[Legerd]

Once again, I feel disappointed and cheated. It's bad enough that Canada's super team is pretty much non-Canadian, but now our symbolic national hero is an American doing community service. Who thought this was a good idea?
I still hope OF does well for Mike and Scott's sake, but it will never be AF. And since AF is dead I don't expect an AF title will ever be seen again. Oh, and the whole "revolving door of Death" in the Marvel U doesn't give me any hope. If the team is seen as too messed up now, another return from the grave won't help.

[Ben]

You know, I'm kind of disappointed in some reactions to this news. Keep in mind that "Postman Mike" was NOT in control of himself when he killed AF, it speaks nothing of the character. He is NOT guardian, he is Weapon Alpha at this point, and could easily take the role of Vindicator, actually having something to vindicate. This is a vehicle people, a way to get the attention of readers that wouldn't normally get a "flight" book. Yah, the guy is American, but he has atonement to make in Canada.

No one has read the anything yet. We have Talisman, we have Sasquatch, BRB, who is bound to a Canadian, and three American characters. This title IS after all spinning out from Civil war, which took place in the US. I had pretty much already figured that Mike was gonna be in the suit.

IMO this is not a big deal. The book still looks like it'll be incredible, so lets read it before crying about one character.

BTW, you should be glad, because when Millar FIRST told me about this series, before Oeming was even on-board, the plan was for an ALL AMERICAN team.

Ben

[Corvus]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Mike tell us Mike wouldn't be in the suit? I'm pissed he is.

Yeah, I recall this too. Was it an Oeming post, or someone who talked to Omeing at a con or something?

Can anyone clarify?

[Legerd]

No one has read the anything yet. We have Talisman, we have Sasquatch, BRB, who is bound to a Canadian, and three American characters. This title IS after all spinning out from Civil war, which took place in the US. I had pretty much already figured that Mike was gonna be in the suit.

Most of us did too, but we were holding out hope he wasn't, and there was alot of misinformation being spread around to make it sound like he wouldn't be.


IMO this is not a big deal. The book still looks like it'll be incredible, so lets read it before crying about one character.

Why is it when someone complains about something they don't like, they have to be insulted by being said to be "crying"? For the record, I don't care about Mike one way or the other, it's the fact that Mac was killed in a lame way and his killer is then given his suit and (former) name to take over in his place. If you want Mike on the team fine, but he should have a different name and costume IMO.


BTW, you should be glad, because when Millar FIRST told me about this series, before Oeming was even on-board, the plan was for an ALL AMERICAN team.

Yeah, lucky us. If they had stuck with the original idea then I wouldn't have wasted all these months hoping/expecting to see a new Flight team that could possibly lead to the return of my favourite characters. I could have just put the idea of a real AF title behind me for good.

[Ben]

Ok, fine. People are welcome to their opinions, I just don't understand something like this making people turn full circle on their opinions of the book's prospects. I think we should at the very least read issue #1 before condemning the series.

I understand that this news upset some people, but I feel pretty sure that Oeming has some interesting angles planned if he decided to use this character.

Ben

[SmurfInABlender]

I went out and picked the issue up... It is handeled VERY well in my opinion.. and like ben said, he didn't know he was killing people infact he killed all his friends without knowing.. he was willing to get the chair for this (yes I know the chair is not used any more) I just... I dunno.. I think it will be really interesting. I was strongly against Mailman Mike until i read the Initiative... I think it was done VERY well.

I for one will be the devils advocate and say I'm glad Mike is Weapon Alpha.. because believe me.. it sure as heck made an impact on the market and tons of people will buy the comic now.

Yeah he's not Canadian but you know.. he is from Alaska and I think its close enough.. and he really wants to do what is right and wants to atone for what he did. I for one am supporting this move. Call me a traitor but I am

[Legerd]

I for one am not condemning the series, I'm just disappointed by what they are doing with Guardian's suit.

[Captain Primate]

what if he took Canadian citizenship...that would be cool.

[Transmetropolitan]

Yeah he's not Canadian but you know.. he is from Alaska and I think its close enough..

ONce again, Speaking as an Alaskan... uh, no.

[varo]

listen guys, i am a bit peterved as well that alpha has not been handled correctly from the higher ups (editorially not creatively).

but.....

we are now pissing off a incredibly creative writer who has poured his heart and soul into making omega a top seller and i wouldn't be suprised if he walked even if omega was made a ongoing. (see the sticky at the top of his forums for more)

guys, the reality of the matter is, the alpha flight we all love never sold (post byrne), marvel has put out what it feels will give omega the best chance to succeed, whether we agree or not.

i would love to see mac back in the suit, surrounded by sas, puck, northstar/aurora, shaman and snowbird. but for now thats not going to happen and oemings omega has my full support.

[Corvus]

Uh, I'm sure Michael can handle a little criticism of his work. He wouldn't have made it this far as a comic book writer or artist if he couldn't handle anything more strong than "you're awesome, we love you"

He's been coming to this forum,even asked people for input and information about Canada. If he didn't think some people were going to be upset about this, he wasn't paying much attention.

[syvalois]

what if he took Canadian citizenship...that would be cool.

what time does it do to have the citizenship? 2 years? well, that would make sense for mailman mike to get the suit after that. Like, after the training, after controling his powers, and if he gain the citizenship, now (for me) that would make sense. I't like the new mutants had costume ready for them when they would graduate, well, that would have been the same for Mike.

But would it have make the same impact if mailman mike would hvae only join OF, not been in the suit?

But except for that, I want to read the rest.

[Captain Primate]

people were complaining that he wasn't a canadian...make him canadian...make him take canadian citizenship...I think that would be cool.

[Oeming]

Thanks Varo! But no one is pissing me off, Ive been through this before, remember, I killed THOR:)

As for me stating Michael wasn't going to be in the uniform, I dont remember saying that, if I did, I mispoke/mistyped it and apologize to anyone who felt mislead by that.

To me, this is only one TRUE Guardian and he died an amazing death in Alpha Flight #12 and that was the end of his story. Canada's hero was never the costume, it was the man inside the costume. To me, Alpha Flight was never about BEING Canada or Canadian, it was about being in service TO Canada and Canadians.

I think that was always the point of the team.

[Captain Primate]

wow - straight from the mouth of the man himself. Regardless of all of the bitterness flying about...I think that everyone here will agree that you are a class act all the way Mike.

[syvalois]

To me, Alpha Flight was never about BEING Canada or Canadian, it was about being in service TO Canada and Canadians.

I think that was always the point of the team.

Like been a légionnaire for France :twisted:

[Legerd]

what if he took Canadian citizenship...that would be cool.

How about this, if the States lets a Canadian take over as Captain America now that Rogers is dead, we'll be okay with Mike as Guardian/Weapon Alpha/whatever he's going to be called. :D

[SmurfInABlender]

I agree.. and I'm not just sucking up I honestly do agree (seriously what woudl i get out of suckign up anyways?)

I Think Mike will make a good new addition to the Marvel Universe... And I've said it before.. I always thought Mac was a little bland.. He was Vindicator with nothing really to vindicate, he was Gaurdian when he himself had a problem with his technology being used for the military.. for the first time I see a leader who has something to vindicate.. he's kind of like a spider-man if you think about it.. he feels personally responsable for something and now has devoted his life to making sure no one else can do that... I think, written the right way, it will be Postman Mike that soars Omega into an ongoing. Becuase I think he will draw the curiosity of buyers... and I think Oeming can turn him into a leader with personality..

[Transmetropolitan]

Thanks Varo! But no one is pissing me off, Ive been through this before, remember, I killed THOR:)

As for me stating Michael wasn't going to be in the uniform, I dont remember saying that, if I did, I mispoke/mistyped it and apologize to anyone who felt mislead by that.

To me, this is only one TRUE Guardian and he died an amazing death in Alpha Flight #12 and that was the end of his story. Canada's hero was never the costume, it was the man inside the costume. To me, Alpha Flight was never about BEING Canada or Canadian, it was about being in service TO Canada and Canadians.

I think that was always the point of the team.\


And you sir, weather slings and arrows with commendable good grace.

Hats off.

Still buyin' the books, ya know. ;)

[Captain Primate]

dude...I'm starting a petition right now...Captain Canuck for the new Captain America.

[Oeming]

I would LOVE to see the a new Cap as a non-American- what better way to see our culture than through the eyes of a non-American?

That said, there can only EVER be one real Cap, and thats Steve Rogers- like the Guardian, its not the suit, its the man.

Iron Man can be anyone though:)

[RatCat]

Iron Man can be anyone though:)

As long as they are drunk that is.

Tony had the controls calibrated so they work better when inebriated

[Captain Primate]

I would very much like to point everyone to a similar discussion going on over at the jinxworld forum.

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=105848

Some interesting comments.

As for a yankee "representing" Canada and Canadians, I've got to admit it makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm a canuck whose lived in the U.S. for awhile (doing my PhD at an american university and then become a professor at another american university). I see how we are portrayed in the pop culture of the united states, and I know how we are perceived in the collective consciousness of many americans. This is why I sympathize with many people on this board who feel that the makeup of OF sends the wrong message about Canada's sovereignty.

However, that having been said, Oeming has repeatedly talked about his plans to explore the underbelly of american nationalism in OF...as well as the positive aspects of the U.S. as well. He's also repeatedly talked about portraying Canada positively and in a way that will make all canucks proud. Its about damn time that American's saw our homeland the same way that we do...and I think that this book just might do this.

So, here is the deal...I think that we should all quit our collective *****ing and give the man the benefit of the doubt and wait until the damn book actually comes out...if we love it, we love it...if we hate it, we hate it...lets just wait and see. And yes, I'll shut my bloddy cake hole now as well.

[SpaceGuardian]

Isn't the Iron Man armor where Steve Rogers is hiding out, secretly working WITH Tony to keep the Initiative on the right track?

btw, I've read The Intiative OF section 4 more times and, since it's now a reality, I'm coming to terms with the new information...and it does make for an interesting set of conflicts in OF....Talisman working with the guy who killed her father, for example. I'm still hoping there'll be some sort of government conspiracy that lied to Walt and are keeping the "dead" AF in stasis somewhere, waiting to be rescued by Snowbird and the twins during my imaginary 25th anniversary Reunion mini.

[SephirothsKiller]

Continuing to break my lenten vow...

Ben, and others I think are missing the point of the sentiment.

We aren't condemning Mike. Everyone here thinks he's a cool guy.
We aren't condemning the book.

We are however putting forth how disappointed we are in the direction of the story. I for one, am still disappointed. Someone telling me "you haven't read the book yet so don't be disappointed you fool" is not going to make me un-disappointed.

I don't like the idea of an American in the Guardian costume. Its my opinion. I'm sure that every writer knows you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. I'm one of the not pleased people. Its no big deal.

I also don't agree that "Alpha Flight wasn't about being Canadian." In my opinion it was exactly that. Not the individual members per se but the team itself. It was the superhuman face of Canada, and now I don't think it can be called that... It may be serving Canada now, but it is serving Canada with strings. If a war broke out between the U.S. and Canada who here could honestly say that we would see the team would choose to fight for Canada? I never doubted that USAgent would go for the U.S. but he's the foil to the team, and I like that, Guardian on the other hand is the symbol of the country... I think that he should at least take off the maple leaf. It would have been different if Mike had been all "I wanna use my powers for good to make up for my past!" But instead he was coerced into the suit...

Most of all though I have to look at this in terms of realistic what I believe the real life reaction would be. If the Canadian public found out that an American was wearing their flag the reaction would be only slightly less dramatic then if a Leafs fan found out that the team captain of the Leafs was playing with a Canadiens "C" on his jersey. And as a Leafs fan, I can tell you that the reaction to that would be very... very... ugly. Fans of Toronto teams are vicious, just ask Vince Carter. Americans and Canadians are like brothers, and because of that there's a lot of sibling rivalry.

I'm only gonna buy one copy of this book and I think that's understandable. If I shouldn't condemn a book before I read it, it wouldn't be reasonable to universally endorse it either. I want to read Mike's story and all, but I was planning on promoting something heavily that at least partially akin to an AF. If I had the money I'd buy extra copies anyway but I don't, Nova Scotia has really high tuition. Sorry Mike, I feel guilty for going back on my word. I'll still ask my LCS to highlight the series though.

[Mokole]

My stuff is read, so I'm deleting most of it.

Good luck Mr. Oeming, seems things got a lot tougher again for Flight fans.

[nygfan]

Look....Mike the Mailman isn't my first choice to wear the Guardian suit, but its not a totally bad idea...give it a chance....also all this talk about not buying OF is just what Joe Q wants you to do......Buy this book and in mass quantities so it can last long enough for Omeing to make some changes......At least Sasquatch made it and now Mike can call himself Vindicator......he has a lot to be vindicated for......If Omega Flight doesn't get support from US then it won't be Mike the Mailman that kills Alpha Flight...it will be Us.......

[Mokole]

To me, this is only one TRUE Guardian and he died an amazing death in Alpha Flight #12 and that was the end of his story. Canada's hero was never the costume, it was the man inside the costume. To me, Alpha Flight was never about BEING Canada or Canadian, it was about being in service TO Canada and Canadians.

Well, good luck proving that! I hope Sasquatch and Talisman give mailman Mike what for and he proves to be worthy of living here. As such, becoming a Canadian.




Edited because I'm not doing any good anyway.

[RatCat]

also all this talk about not buying OF is just what Joe Q wants you to do......

Huh? Joe Q doesn't want his company to make money? he must be a horrible EIC.

[Mokole]

None of my faves were ever in the lineup, ever: Box, Feedback, Windshear, Witchfire, Nemesis, Puck, Zuzha, Flex, Ghost Girl, even Wild Child and Goblyn. I think Talisman and Sasquatch are OK but neither makes me want to write an AF story about them. Yet I pulled hard for OF to be a winner and did my part to show we wanted a series.


I'm editing because what I say really doesn't matter.

[Transmetropolitan]

Honestly, of the team that got waxed, I'm only gonna mss a couple.

Heather- no excuses here. I'm gonna miss Heather Hudson.
Michael. Still gonna miss 'im... but at least he has a "legacy" on the team. It's time Elizabeth stepped up anyway.
Eugene- Eh. Purely sentimental attachment, here. His backstory has been meddled with so much that it's hard ot say what makes him a really defining character anymore.

Mac... never really crossed my radar in a way that made me like him much.
MMLJr and Puckette are, sadly, cursed by their Volume Three associations.

And consider...

Narya, the Twins, Jeffires, Lil, MOST of the Volume 2 crew... All still out there, alive and kicking.

[Guardian]

Ok, fine. People are welcome to their opinions, I just don't understand something like this making people turn full circle on their opinions of the book's prospects. I think we should at the very least read issue #1 before condemning the series.

I understand that this news upset some people, but I feel pretty sure that Oeming has some interesting angles planned if he decided to use this character.

Ben

Well I've had some time to let this stuff sink in so........ I'll still read OF. Hopefully Oeming has an ace up his sleeve. And to be honest this team does still seem interesting to me. I've always liked the U.S. Agent and Spider-Woman, and BRB and Talisman are great.

And Ben you're right, mailman Mike didn't have control at the time. Having him on the team does have some interesting story possibilities. But having him wear Guardians suit, I'm not to keen on still. At this point only Mac or Heather should wear that suit. But will see. I await next month.

[Guardian]

what if he took Canadian citizenship...that would be cool.

How about this, if the States lets a Canadian take over as Captain America now that Rogers is dead, we'll be okay with Mike as Guardian/Weapon Alpha/whatever he's going to be called. :D

Uh....no. :roll: As far as I'm concerned, nobody should wear the Captain America suit anymore, other than Steve Rogers. American or not. Though other characters have nobley taken the Mantle of Captain America. The only real Cap is Steve. He made the suit. He died wearing the suit, protecting his people. R.I.P. Steve.

[Guardian]

Thanks Varo! But no one is pissing me off, Ive been through this before, remember, I killed THOR:)

As for me stating Michael wasn't going to be in the uniform, I dont remember saying that, if I did, I mispoke/mistyped it and apologize to anyone who felt mislead by that.

To me, this is only one TRUE Guardian and he died an amazing death in Alpha Flight #12 and that was the end of his story. Canada's hero was never the costume, it was the man inside the costume. To me, Alpha Flight was never about BEING Canada or Canadian, it was about being in service TO Canada and Canadians.

I think that was always the point of the team.

Thanks for comin' by Mike. You're a class act.

I've had sometime to adjust and I'll still give OF a shot. The lineup is still really interesting to me and havin' the mailman on the team COULD be interesting. I guess his character has some great potential. And he could really make a difference. But why in the Guardian suit?

I've got a couple questions for ya if you could answer 'em.

1. Who's idea was it to put mailman Mike in the Guardian suit?

2. What name will he go by? Anything but Guardian or Vindicator!

Thanks Mike. (I love your Red Sonja stuff by the way.) :)

[Barnacle13]

Wow! That was a bomb dropped. So Alpha Really is dead :cry: ! Dana really was right (that's might be just as hard to accept :wink: )! I'll miss my Alphans. As stated before, Mac should have stayed dead a long time ago. I think Shaman could possibly be just as effective in spirit form teaching Elizabeth. Heather, I'll have a hard time accepting her death. Puck, I'm very saddened by his death. He and Heather to me were always the heart of the team. MML and Puckette, good worm food. I won't miss them much.

Mailman Mike in the suit bothers me for a couple reasons. 1)It does seem a bit disrepectful and I have to respectfully disagree with Mike on this one. I think the Guardian suit was an iconic national symbol. Whether worn by Mac or Heather it stood for Canada. I guess Jade Dragon and Windshear support his "service to Canada" stance on the team, but leadership has always been Canadian. 2) Now you have a superpowered being wearing your national symbol, who is trying to gain control of his powers on Canadian soil, where his greatest attrocity occurred. Wouldn't the government be a little concerned about it's citizens. All it would take is one really bad day and a loss of control and hundreds or thousands could be killed. 3) and perhaps this will present itself as a character element, I'd think he himself would be worried about the above. Will I kill more innocents if I can't control my powers. Does moving the body count to Canada make it any less significant? I think not!

I hope Mike at least addresses what becomes of Mac and Heather's child. I'd think Julia being a single parent would be very interested in the plight of this orphan. Mailman Mike should at some point be confronted with that reality as well. How can he possibly vindicate that? Mike's gonna really have to pull one out of the proverbial hat for that!

I'll try to stay optimistic, I'm sure the story will be good. It's not what I was hoping for, so I'll have to adjust my expectations. I no longer see the possibility of an Alpha Flight spin off.

[Barnacle13]

I'm with SephirothsKiller, Powersurge and any other Canadian who feels this is a slap in the face.

I'm not even Canadian, but I'm totally disgusted by this terrible idea No American should be slapped into a Canadian-flag costume, just for pennance. It's ridiculous.

I'm not sure what to be more pissed about...AF dead or this American as Vindicator/Guardian atrocity.

Dana

You bring up another great point. It's already been discussed here what they have done to Speedball. Is every character in the MU going to be doing pennance? I just hope that Mike put some serious thought into Mailman's transgressions and that they are all addressed. Baby Hudson should play a major role in his pennance. I'm still buying, but it'll have to be good to keep me. I was hopeful for an eventual Alpha Flight spin off. I can only hope now that some of the others mentioned earlier (Snowbird, Jefferies, Northstar, Aurora, etc) will eventually make appearances and maybe gain in popularity. But I really can't see any of them carrying a title. Heather or Mac will need to come back from the grave to make Alpha a go, unless Mike can change my mind with the Mailman.

[Obsidian3d]

I never implied that I wouldn't buy Omega Flight, far from it...it's the only thing on my current list from Marvel other than The Dark Tower mini. I will however have to also disagree with Mike and say that I heartily disagree with putting a non-Canadian, especially one guilty of (in control of himself or not) the murders of over a half dozen of Canada's heroes.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the narrative plays out in OF, with both sides the of the US / Canada relationship being looked at, but on a global stage, both within the US and in other countries abroad the truth remains that Canada is largely seen as the USA's slightly backward and unfortunate cousin. And I think that is what truly bothers me. I will admit that I, like I'm sure a lot of other Canadians with global living/travel experience, probably feel a little bit of persecution complex. After the 10th or 20th time someone asks you "Are you American?" it can make a person want to scream. Thus, it strikes me as more than a little out of line to have an American citizen (because no matter what anyone may think, Alaska is part of the US and anyone from there will tell you so) wearing our flag.

As several of our American members have said here, even the thought of a non-American wearing the uniform of Captain America makes them feel uneasy. So I don't see how putting mailman Mike in the suit can be considered a good idea at all, and seems more than a little bit arrogant, regardless of the interesting story possibilities it may present. It would never be done with an American symbol, so what makes it ok to be done to a Canadian one?

Now please, before anyone gets too up in arms over my statements...I'm not casting aspersions on any of our US members, Americans in general, the creative team on OF or anyone else. I am just trying to make clear as to why I feel upset about the choice. Perhaps the story in Omega Flight will blow me away and I'll be more than able to accept the reasons behind it. But for now I'll just have reserve judgement on that until I read it.

[Corvus]

Thanks Varo! But no one is pissing me off, Ive been through this before, remember, I killed THOR:)

As for me stating Michael wasn't going to be in the uniform, I dont remember saying that, if I did, I mispoke/mistyped it and apologize to anyone who felt mislead by that.

To me, this is only one TRUE Guardian and he died an amazing death in Alpha Flight #12 and that was the end of his story. Canada's hero was never the costume, it was the man inside the costume. To me, Alpha Flight was never about BEING Canada or Canadian, it was about being in service TO Canada and Canadians.

I think that was always the point of the team.

None of which addresses the fact that you're putting an American, and one who murdered, voluntarily or not, multiple Canadian heroes in a costume bearing our country's flag.

All of the things you said are good reasons to have people from other countries on a Canadian based team. They aren't reasons to slap them into the costume of a well known Canadian hero based on our flag. And thats the centre of most of the complaints.

[Alpha Fan]

As most of you I don't like having the mailman in the Guardian suit but that won't stop me from picking up OF.

What saddens me the most is the death of Heather and Puck. Heather and Puck have been the heart of AF since the beginning and after all they have been through their pathetic death didn't do justice to the characters.

The current context for Omega Flight leaves me with some questions that I hope can be resolved in a future (I hope) OF regular series:

1) What's going to happen to Mac and Heather's baby?

2) Will the other important AF members alive deal with their former teammates deaths in any way? I'm refering to Northstar, Aurora, Snowbird, Diamond Lil and Jeffries. Particularly, I'm sure Snowbird will have something to say about her adoptive father's death.

3) Will we see Alpha Flight's funeral (at least in flashbacks) or it will take place off-panel too? AF is one of the most important Marvel teams. I guess they deserve a big State funeral.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Wow! That was a bomb dropped. So Alpha Really is dead :cry: ! Dana really was right (that's might be just as hard to accept :wink: )!

HEY! :P


I'll miss my Alphans. As stated before, Mac should have stayed dead a long time ago.

I have to agree about Mac (Mike O stated my heart's sentiments earlier about Mac dying in AF #12...Great story)...His multiple resurrections had crossed into the realm of the absurd a long time ago.


I think Shaman could possibly be just as effective in spirit form teaching Elizabeth. Heather, I'll have a hard time accepting her death. Puck, I'm very saddened by his death. He and Heather to me were always the heart of the team.

Heather and Puck's deaths peeve me off the most...I'm peeved about Shaman too....Sigh...I have the feeling I'll be feeling this way for a long time.


MML and Puckette, good worm food. I won't miss them much.

Ugh....Ditto...


Mailman Mike in the suit bothers me for a couple reasons. 1)It does seem a bit disrepectful and I have to respectfully disagree with Mike on this one. I think the Guardian suit was an iconic national symbol. Whether worn by Mac or Heather it stood for Canada. I guess Jade Dragon and Windshear support his "service to Canada" stance on the team, but leadership has always been Canadian. 2) Now you have a superpowered being wearing your national symbol, who is trying to gain control of his powers on Canadian soil, where his greatest attrocity occurred. Wouldn't the government be a little concerned about it's citizens. All it would take is one really bad day and a loss of control and hundreds or thousands could be killed. 3) and perhaps this will present itself as a character element, I'd think he himself would be worried about the above. Will I kill more innocents if I can't control my powers. Does moving the body count to Canada make it any less significant? I think not!

I hope Mike at least addresses what becomes of Mac and Heather's child. I'd think Julia being a single parent would be very interested in the plight of this orphan. Mailman Mike should at some point be confronted with that reality as well. How can he possibly vindicate that? Mike's gonna really have to pull one out of the proverbial hat for that!

I'll try to stay optimistic, I'm sure the story will be good. It's not what I was hoping for, so I'll have to adjust my expectations. I no longer see the possibility of an Alpha Flight spin off.

I'm still picking up the first issue...after that, we'll see.

Dana

[Banshee]

I'll be buying this book. I'm sorry AF are dead, really, but I'll be buying this book. And Snowbird is a Goddess, she'll be back. :D

[Adam]

Ed Brubaker said this while talking about Captain America and it pretty much sums how I'm looking at Omega Flight and all the related controversy:


EB: My advice -- Just read the comic if enjoy it, and don't if you don't. Stories are like a ride you go on, and if you don't like the ride, or don't want to see which turn comes next, you should get off, because you aren't in the driver's seat and you aren't steering -- the creators are. Hopefully, more readers than not will like the ride. So I say, take it for what it is, and try not to bring in preconceived notions of how it will or won't go. That's how I try to read my episodic comics.

But this constant second-guessing and need to get angry about stuff before they know what's happening that some comic fans have is a waste of their time and energy. And I can't hope to please those kinds of fans. Nothing does, generally, especially not anything big. I can only try to tell a good story and follow my instincts.

Bingo. So Michael's in the suit? Alright. Make it good story Oeming.

[Canucklehead]

So, here is the deal...I think that we should all quit our collective *****ing and give the man the benefit of the doubt and wait until the damn book actually comes out...

I'm surprised no one saw this. It made me giggle.

Anyway I'm not as disapointed as I thought I'd be about this "worst case scenario". Firstly, like Mike said, Mac was dead to me long ago. Puck, everyone loves him, but in todays day and age, a little person super hero doesn't have the same effect as when he was created. In the 80s it was "Wow! A little person superhero! That's amazing!". These days it's unfortunately "Haha, look at him, this team is lame". Heather was one of he best, if not the best, female leaders in comics. She will be missed. We're lucky to have another strong female leader her in Talisman. Which brings me to my next point...er Pointer. Mike Pointer(wish he had a cooler name), yes he's american, yes he's wearing "the suit". At least he's not the leader of the team. That Talisman. He'll be in the background learning his powers(does he have he suit powers too or isit just cloth?). What really made V3 not work for me was (ok more then one but I'll just mention one) that no one wore "the suit". It didn't feel like Alpha.

Look at it this way, Guardian took out Galactus, but the Collective took out Guardian. That's pretty powerful. And he's our background character! Arachne will bring the sensitve, sensible, motherly aspects we lost with Heather, with cool psychic web stuff. USAgent went toe to toe with Cap America and will bring the confidence and conflict that Northstar originally had. BRB took out THOR. So did Mike Oeming. Wow! The the lovable Sasquatch who went toe to toe with the Thing and the Hulk. And lastely Talisman who is suposedly on par with Dr. Strange. This is a powerful team. I'm excited!

We don't know what type of person this Micheal Pointer is yet, but I'm sure he will become a very good supporting character, with or without "the suit". What if his mother was Canadian? What if he brings it upon himself to adopt baby (Hailey 8) ) Hudson? Would that be easier to swallow? We don't know much yet but I'm excited to find out, as I hope do other people, Alpha fans or not.

Can't wait Mike!

[Tiberius Bane]

I like the idea of mail man Mike. He had no control over killing all those people. I feel bad for him and think he will make a great character and a great addition to Omega Flight. You can call him Vindicator even. He does have a lot to vindicate.

HOWEVER, I dont like him in the Weapon Alpha/Vindicator/Guardian suit. If you want to put someone new in there, it should be a Canadian.

Honestly, how would American's feel if the new Captain America was Canadian.

I guess Omega Flight is now part of the 51 state initiative.

Oh, and I like Mike's work and I look forward to reading OF. I am disappointed about an American being in the suit.

MikeM

[Ben]

I guess Omega Flight is now part of the 51 state initiative.


or at least, this is what Tony Stark and Reed Richards intend...something tells me it won't quite go down the way they plan.


Ben

[Tiberius Bane]

I guess Omega Flight is now part of the 51 state initiative.


or at least, this is what Tony Stark and Reed Richards intend...something tells me it won't quite go down the way they plan.


Ben

Actually that could make for a really cool story. I kind of just said it in jest, but now that you point that out Ben, I think it would lead to a good story.

MikeM

[SmurfInABlender]

Well its obvious as to Why only sasquatch survived, its because while in his Sasquatch form Walter has quick healing, so where as the others would have died of wounds, sasquatch was healed from them.

The only one I'm sad about is puck, but then again he lived a long life.. the only 80 year old man still fighting lol..

Heather led the team for most of the time.. its time she was replaced sadly... but I honestly would have liked all to die but maybe her or puck and that person be in ICU for most of the series or in a coma.

Plus who knows, they made a big deal about Captain America being dead and yet in the Initiative Ms. Marvel tells Spider-woman that it was all a lie... so who knows... maybe this is all a lie?

[Tiberius Bane]

Well its obvious as to Why only sasquatch survived, its because while in his Sasquatch form Walter has quick healing, so where as the others would have died of wounds, sasquatch was healed from them.

The only one I'm sad about is puck, but then again he lived a long life.. the only 80 year old man still fighting lol..

Heather led the team for most of the time.. its time she was replaced sadly... but I honestly would have liked all to die but maybe her or puck and that person be in ICU for most of the series or in a coma.

Plus who knows, they made a big deal about Captain America being dead and yet in the Initiative Ms. Marvel tells Spider-woman that it was all a lie... so who knows... maybe this is all a lie?

I dont think Mail man Mike is going to be the leader. I think USAgent is.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Well its obvious as to Why only sasquatch survived, its because while in his Sasquatch form Walter has quick healing, so where as the others would have died of wounds, sasquatch was healed from them.

The only one I'm sad about is puck, but then again he lived a long life.. the only 80 year old man still fighting lol..

Heather led the team for most of the time.. its time she was replaced sadly... but I honestly would have liked all to die but maybe her or puck and that person be in ICU for most of the series or in a coma.

Plus who knows, they made a big deal about Captain America being dead and yet in the Initiative Ms. Marvel tells Spider-woman that it was all a lie... so who knows... maybe this is all a lie?

I dont think Mail man Mike is going to be the leader. I think USAgent is.

Both choices are unappealing. It should be Talisman or Sasquatch only.

[Captain Primate]

or at least, this is what Tony Stark and Reed Richards intend...something tells me it won't quite go down the way they plan.


Ben

From what Oeming has said, I'm getting that vibe as well. Ben - you got any insider knowledge you can share with us?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Mike tell us Mike wouldn't be in the suit? I'm pissed he is.

Yes, at the Baltimore Convention, as mentioned elsewhere. Mailman Mike wouldn't have been my choice, especially since I started reading Thunderbolts and learned that it is supposed to be a team made up of villains trying to do good. But since Alpha Flight was supposed to be dead (and now is confirmed dead; I won't get CW:I until tomorrow, payday), there didn't seem to be any way that James would survive. And, I have to agree, the real James Hudson has been dead for a long time.

This will not stop me from buying Omega Flight. Whatever corporate decisions are made to downgrade Alpha Flight are counter-productive. These are characters that people like. I don't know how many people, but the characters deserve respect just like Superman and Spider-Man and Batman and The Avengers and The Justice League of America. Or the company should have the nerve to admit that the characters are not well-respected within the company and should retire them.

Then, five, ten, fifteen years from now, maybe a creative/editorial team will come along with vision and conviction and produce a story/series that fulfills Alpha/Omega's true potential.

This is the comic company that killed Captain America we're grousing about. There is a good article on the death of Captain America in the Style section of today's Washington Post (3/8/07).

[Ben]

or at least, this is what Tony Stark and Reed Richards intend...something tells me it won't quite go down the way they plan.


Ben

From what Oeming has said, I'm getting that vibe as well. Ben - you got any insider knowledge you can share with us?

Any "insider information" that I'm allowed to share gets shared. Anything that I've been asked to keep under my hat stays under my hat. Same goes for when Millar first told me about this series. I knew about it long before it was announced. In Millar's original plan, Omega was supposed to play more of a roll in Civil War, but anything that's planned long term is subject to change. When Bendis "killed" Alpha it was all part of a plan that is now coming to fruition. How that actually plays out will remain to be seen.

Should I have any information that I'm allowed to share, I will. We do know however that Talisman gets into it with Stark ripping him a new tin- can opening.

Ben

[Mario]

Here's what I don't understand.

Leaving aside the issue of Pointer wearing the costume... what good is he?

According to CW:I. he has the power to absorb mutant energy. Given that there are only a couple hundred mutants left (most in NY) and no more mutants being born, he seems about as useful as a hydrokinetic in the desert, no?

[Captain Primate]

So, I just picked op CW:I...read the OF portion...re-wrote the OF portion...read it again. I gotta admit, I like it. I especially like Walter's quote:


This suit means something to me and my country...and when your training is done, you will honor the deaths of both our friends and family

I think thats a powerful statement...and if the tone of OF remains in that vein, I think we'll all be (relatively) happy.

Something else dawned on me when I was reading the book. I think the thing that I was the most nervous about was the behavior of the character who donned the suit. If Pointer is written like a pompous yankee who belittles Canada, Canadians, Canadian culture, and Canadian sovereignty, I'm gonna be pissed as all hell. However, if Pointer is written like someone genuinely trying to atone for his past mistakes, honored Canadian culture, and respected Canada in general...I'm gonna be happy. After reading (re-reading...re-re-reading) the OF portion of CW:I, I got a very positive vibe. Even though it isn't a canuck in the suit, I don't think we have anything to worry about.

[Adam]

Here's what I don't understand.

Leaving aside the issue of Pointer wearing the costume... what good is he?

According to CW:I. he has the power to absorb mutant energy. Given that there are only a couple hundred mutants left (most in NY) and no more mutants being born, he seems about as useful as a hydrokinetic in the desert, no?

He absorbed the energy from all the mutants who lost their powers, so N - 198ish of them. While he lost a good portion of that when the Sentry thew Xorn was thrown into sun, he presumably kept some of it. As I understand it he's still playing with some powers from those departed mutants, rather than having to go find new sources to siphon.

[Captain Primate]

Any "insider information" that I'm allowed to share gets shared. Anything that I've been asked to keep under my hat stays under my hat. Same goes for when Millar first told me about this series. I knew about it long before it was announced. In Millar's original plan, Omega was supposed to play more of a roll in Civil War, but anything that's planned long term is subject to change. When Bendis "killed" Alpha it was all part of a plan that is now coming to fruition. How that actually plays out will remain to be seen.

Ben

pretty much what I figured....and I'm sure the reason that this community has a nice connection with the creators is because of you...and your *very* professional attitude.

[RatCat]

Here's what I don't understand.

Leaving aside the issue of Pointer wearing the costume... what good is he?

According to CW:I. he has the power to absorb mutant energy. Given that there are only a couple hundred mutants left (most in NY) and no more mutants being born, he seems about as useful as a hydrokinetic in the desert, no?

He absorbed the energy from all the mutants who lost their powers, so N - 198ish of them. While he lost a good portion of that when the Sentry thew Xorn was thrown into sun, he presumably kept some of it. As I understand it he's still playing with some powers from those departed mutants, rather than having to go find new sources to siphon.


So, he's like Peter Petrelli from Heroes?

[Adam]

So, he's like Peter Petrelli from Heroes?

Maybe, I don't think it's really clearly defined yet. Either way the effects of the big ball of mutant energy crashing into him were probably abnormal one way or the other (particularly considering that Xorn was in there).

[Captain Primate]

I'm surprised no one saw this. It made me giggle.


I hope thats "made me giggle" in a good way...not "made me giggle" in a "what a wanker" kind of way.

[SmurfInABlender]

Well its obvious as to Why only sasquatch survived, its because while in his Sasquatch form Walter has quick healing, so where as the others would have died of wounds, sasquatch was healed from them.

The only one I'm sad about is puck, but then again he lived a long life.. the only 80 year old man still fighting lol..

Heather led the team for most of the time.. its time she was replaced sadly... but I honestly would have liked all to die but maybe her or puck and that person be in ICU for most of the series or in a coma.

Plus who knows, they made a big deal about Captain America being dead and yet in the Initiative Ms. Marvel tells Spider-woman that it was all a lie... so who knows... maybe this is all a lie?

I dont think Mail man Mike is going to be the leader. I think USAgent is.

Both choices are unappealing. It should be Talisman or Sasquatch only.


WOAH WOAH WOAH.. I can deal with Mike being in the costume, heck i can deal with him TRYING to lead the team... but what i can NOT and WILL NOT deal with is US Agent leading the team.. that is obsurd. I think Walter will lead the team honestly, the vibe from the Initiative gives Walter the power, and in the preview from the initiative it is WALTER who is lookign over all the individual files of the Omega Flight members.. so I have been under the impression that Walter would lead it... has anyone heard anything different? because all hell will break loose if US agent leads.. he's an amazing character but not one to lead Canada's super team

I seriously beleive it will be Walter

[Mario]

So, he's like Peter Petrelli from Heroes?

Maybe, I don't think it's really clearly defined yet. Either way the effects of the big ball of mutant energy crashing into him were probably abnormal one way or the other (particularly considering that Xorn was in there).

So, basically, they can pretty much give him any power they want. That's... convienient.

Personally, I was holding out for Madison Jeffries.

[Ben]

WOAH WOAH WOAH.. I can deal with Mike being in the costume, heck i can deal with him TRYING to lead the team... but what i can NOT and WILL NOT deal with is US Agent leading the team.. that is obsurd. I think Walter will lead the team honestly, the vibe from the Initiative gives Walter the power, and in the preview from the initiative it is WALTER who is lookign over all the individual files of the Omega Flight members.. so I have been under the impression that Walter would lead it... has anyone heard anything different? because all hell will break loose if US agent leads.. he's an amazing character but not one to lead Canada's super team

I seriously beleive it will be Walter

If US agent happens to be the leader, it would have been by Stark's command, as he's Tony's man on the inside. I do not know who is the leader, but I can see how Stark and Richards might appoint him, if they feel they have more control over him.

Ben

[SmurfInABlender]

except for they have no right to have a man on the inside in CANADA.. It isn't under Stark's Jurisdiction

[Ben]

except for they have no right to have a man on the inside in CANADA.. It isn't under Stark's Jurisdiction

Hey, this is all just supposition, but they can do such a thing if they have an arrangement with Canadian government, which from the looks of Initiative, they do.

Ben

[Adam]

except for they have no right to have a man on the inside in CANADA.. It isn't under Stark's Jurisdiction

Which I suspect will be a point of conflict between members like USAgent and the Alphans.

[Mario]

except for they have no right to have a man on the inside in CANADA.. It isn't under Stark's Jurisdiction

Technically, SHIELD is a UN organization, so that's not entirely true.

I was under the impression Talisman was the leader... not sure why.

[Mokole]

Well, one problem is that writers may make Mailman Mike another nutjob. After all, he has the weight of killing hundreds of people, the awkwardness of getting a great job as a result of the murder of a hero and father (a murder he played a huge part in), and he was taken over by Xorneto.

Say he absorbs Purple Man's energy; the writer could easily have Purple Man's psyche dominate Pointer's and thus Pointer would act like Purple Man. What's to stop a writer from making the guy who looks like Guardian a mass murderer again?

Oeming likely will leave that alone but anyone else could easily turn the guy in the Guardian suit into a murderer again because of 'who' he absorbed, say a Rider of Apocalypse. There's every reason to think that will happen. Sometime.

[Tiberius Bane]

Looking at that pic it looks like John is in the 'leadership' role. Talisman and Sasquatch and Vindicator (thats what Im calling Mail Man Mike until I know what name he is going to go by) are in secondary back up poses, (behind other people)

USAgent actually has leadership experience. I wonder if he will mention Cap's death in Omega Flight #1. After all, wouldnt he make the most sense to become the next Captain America?

[Mario]

Personally, I'd enjoy the idea of Bill as leader.

But then, I've been a fan of ol Horseface for YEARS.

[SmurfInABlender]

Even though US Agent is in the front, I still feel that the crossed arms pose of Squatch is very "leader-esque" He seems like he is overseeing everything.

And for the record I beleive that The Initiative stated that Postman Mike would become the next "Weapon Alpha"

[Tiberius Bane]

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/003795489.cfm

"USAgent: After an assault from the Purple Man during Civil War, USAgent accepted Tony Stark’s offer to lead Canada’s new superteam."

Why Tony is appointing the leader of Canada's superhero team is beyond me, but hey, they got an American in the Guardian suit....holy crap! The US is taking over Canada!

MikeM

[SmurfInABlender]

and now I'm pissed

Ok Ok ok maybe it can be pulled off.. maybe the inter-group conflict can be interesting.. but still come on... why put an american.. and esspecially one so "patriotic" as U S Agent as the leader? Sigh.... I like US Agent but not as the leader

[-K-M-]

USAgent leading Omega Flight?...uhhh..Mike your killing me man.

[Captain Primate]

"USAgent: After an assault from the Purple Man during Civil War, USAgent accepted Tony Stark’s offer to lead Canada’s new superteam."


I'm hoping that this is a slip on Wizard's part - and not a reflection of how it actually is.

[SmurfInABlender]

I could see it being a mistake.. maybe US Agent simply accepted the position as a MEMBER of Omega Flight...right right? Any one any one?

[Captain Primate]

I could see it being a mistake.. maybe US Agent simply accepted the position as a MEMBER of Omega Flight...right right? Any one any one?

here's hoping!

[Transmetropolitan]

Or maybe he's supposed to be the leader....

But Elizabeth, Billy-BOy and Walter have somethign to say about that.

Even the best leader goes under if his troops consistently tell him to get bent.

[SmurfInABlender]

esspecially if one of those troop members is a ginormous hairy beast!

[mreeez]

Just call the team Avengers North and be done with it.

USAgent = Captain America
BRB = Thor
Sas = Hulk
Talisman = Scarlet Witch
Arachne = Wasp
The Guardian Suit = Iron Man or now that it's Mike, Sentry

[varo]

wait. who, out of that cast do you guys want to lead?

mike is still learning how to use his powers

walter has never been a leader

elizabeth is still young.

brb is not the leading type.

usagent has experience and is a master tactician


guys, we need to start being realistic.

i have read posts were people want manikin and windshear and some other support characters from version 1, i think we're failing to understand that those characters won't sell issues and keep omega around.

[Captain Primate]

walter has never been a leader



so? Why does this mean that he can't lead?




usagent has experience and is a master tactician




yeah, but he's not Canadian...and has (to the best of my knowledge) no experience in Canada. If you want a good leader, they should have operational knowledge of the area/region/country in which the team is doing their thing.


I vote for Walter.

[SmurfInABlender]

Sasquatch can deffinantly lead.. he helped createt he V3 group if i'm correct, and has been in ever AF title (even though the V2 doesn't really count) he also is one of the original members.. its time he got promoted

[Corvus]

w
walter has never been a leader

I've never skydived either, doesn't mean I'm not capable of doing so.

Walter's the most qualified to lead a team in Canada out of this cast IMO. He's got the most experience operating as hero in the country, and he's the smartest one in the team isn't he?

However, I'm not sure that its clear yet that he's actually a full time member of the team, or a supporting character (Government person in charge of OF perhaps?) or what.

[Snowsquatch]

Walter should lead. He deserves it. If OF is a Canadian-run project.

However, if OF is a US gov't project, then it would make sense for USAgent to lead.

Frankly, I could easily see a story-line explaining why the US is running OF. AF was wiped out, leaving Canada vulnerable. The US organizes OF to deal with rogue heroes fleeing to Canada. The US considers this venture as similar to other "overseas" endeavors, like Iraq or Afghanistan.

Heresy? :twisted:

[SmurfInABlender]

It doesn't make sense that it would be a US project. If heroes escape durign war tiem they are the same as refugees, and why would Canada alow America complete rights to extradite any refugee found in Canada.. and if that is what omega flight will become is just a team that seeks out refugees from America then its a problem to begin with... i just think it is a shot to Canada to say they would bend over backwords and let america in. I mean Canada has been very selective in previous agreements with the united states. Though the borders are reletively open, in the NAFTA Agreement where as Mexico and United States said that specific things can not be part of this agreement Canada one upped them both and said "The agreement can not affect Canadian Culture" pretty much giving them complete control without regaurd as to what is aloud into ando ut of their coutnry if they wished. So why would they bow down to the US. Now perhaps they feel vulnerable. But Canada said once before it didn't even need alpha flight and would make a new team if needed, there are plenty of participants in Canada. So why back away?

Unless secretly the collective was controlled by Iron Man who sent it into Canada so eventually he coudl act liek he saves the day and infact send a mostly American team into make sure Canada stays on their side.

Ok I'm goign off on a useless tangent and its worthless so I'll shut up my main point is I don't think Canada would have a lot more of a problem with Iron Man having control then they seem to be.

[Mokole]

Walter has lead (he lead Beta Flight even for a while, ran a lot of things). Talisman has the attitude to lead and now is motivated. Last time USAgent tried to lead they fired him in Force Works.

[Canucklehead]

I'm surprised no one saw this. It made me giggle.


I hope thats "made me giggle" in a good way...not "made me giggle" in a "what a wanker" kind of way.

Haha, no, no it was good. It was an unintentional pun. Our "collective *****ing" was about a guy named The Collective. Hense we are Collective *****ing, collectively. 8)

[SpaceGuardian]

You know, I've now come to realize that I'm not really unhappy with OF, but more upset with how AF was taken out. If AF is dead, so be it. These things happen. But what needs to be done, and this is where my issues come in, is to give AF the send off they deserved. Maybe Marvel can do a one shot, after OF is done to keep interest going, that gives us the "last days" of AF; told from each of the character's perspectives before gathering for their final battle. Heather and James playing with their daughter, the father-daughter reunion of Pucks, Shaman prepping Elizabeth for her new role after some premonition, etc. Then maybe an extended version of the battle with The Collective, with dialogue all the way through, playing on the reader's emotions a bit. And finally, the state funeral they deserve. Something like that, done as a full story and not as a flashback in a mini-series, could finally give some closure to AF. I understand now that I'll be reading Omega Flight and not Alpha Flight, but a final AF one shot would sure help make that easier.

Although, the fact that most of the team is made up of Americans is still a bit of an issue.

[Transmetropolitan]

Although, the fact that most of the team is made up of Americans is still a bit of an issue.

U.S. Agent- No two ways about it, yeah.
Mailman Mike- Yeah.
Arachne- Well, she might switch citizenship. Which would make a neat subplot.
Beta Ray Bill- Is a space alien. Anchored to a Canadian, acnhored to a swahili, he's a friggn' horse-faced space alien.
Elizabeth- Canadian.
Walter (assuming he's on the team)- Canadian

So.... two out of six are Canadian, one's a space alien anchored to a Canuck, one's a Yank who might have reason to switch her colors, and two are Yanks unlikely to change their colors.



The percentage is, to say the least, daunting.

[SmurfInABlender]

I beg to differ, I can see Mailman Mike changing colors

[Mokole]

Bill Rosemann at Marvel emailed my son and was upbeat about Omega Flight, saying most of the editors wanted to keep it an ongoing but they hope it can be an ongoing again. And that Omega Flight makes Alpha Flight proud. :)

[SmurfInABlender]

i think it will get an ongoing, after the Initiative it was pushed like crazy... we can't say the company isn't tryign to push it because it seems like it is being pushed a ton

[Powersurge]

I wonder how all of the Canadian superheroes and ex-Flight'ers will rect to being "protected" by IM's "Avengers North"?

As a side note; now that the CW is over, I remember why I never really cared for IM. Too bad Cap chose the losing side.

[Hyperstorm]

U.S. Agent- No two ways about it, yeah.
Mailman Mike- Yeah.
Arachne- Well, she might switch citizenship. Which would make a neat subplot.
Beta Ray Bill- Is a space alien. Anchored to a Canadian, acnhored to a swahili, he's a friggn' horse-faced space alien.
Elizabeth- Canadian.
Walter (assuming he's on the team)- Canadian

So.... two out of six are Canadian, one's a space alien anchored to a Canuck, one's a Yank who might have reason to switch her colors, and two are Yanks unlikely to change their colors.



The percentage is, to say the least, daunting.

Since when is Bill anchored to a Canadian? Simon Walters didn't seem very Canadian considering he was wearing a U.S. Army uniform.

[Ahab]

You know, I've now come to realize that I'm not really unhappy with OF, but more upset with how AF was taken out. If AF is dead, so be it. These things happen. But what needs to be done, and this is where my issues come in, is to give AF the send off they deserved. Maybe Marvel can do a one shot, after OF is done to keep interest going, that gives us the "last days" of AF; told from each of the character's perspectives before gathering for their final battle. Heather and James playing with their daughter, the father-daughter reunion of Pucks, Shaman prepping Elizabeth for her new role after some premonition, etc. Then maybe an extended version of the battle with The Collective, with dialogue all the way through, playing on the reader's emotions a bit. And finally, the state funeral they deserve. Something like that, done as a full story and not as a flashback in a mini-series, could finally give some closure to AF. I understand now that I'll be reading Omega Flight and not Alpha Flight, but a final AF one shot would sure help make that easier.

Although, the fact that most of the team is made up of Americans is still a bit of an issue.

I LOVE THIS IDEA! And I think it would make a lot of fans happy. I'm surprised that everyone has focused on the Mailman Mike aspect of the story and no one (until SG mentioned it) has said anything about the fact that we didn't see any more of the battle. That was the only thing that disappointed me. I was really hoping that they would show a little more of what happened there - or at least what was said. I guess the point to be made is that there wasn't much of a battle or time to say much. BANG - and it was over...

[-K-M-]

Since when is Bill anchored to a Canadian? Simon Walters didn't seem very Canadian considering he was wearing a U.S. Army uniform.

Always he was going to be revealed Canadian in Stormbreaker was cut out due to space. However, in several interviews creators and editors have claimed Simon to be Canadian.

[SmurfInABlender]

As for the fight I bet more will be revealed in the first issue of Omega flight, or else Walter will have nightmare re-accurances or soemthign of that matter.

[Corvus]

U.S. Agent- No two ways about it, yeah.
Mailman Mike- Yeah.
Arachne- Well, she might switch citizenship. Which would make a neat subplot.
Beta Ray Bill- Is a space alien. Anchored to a Canadian, acnhored to a swahili, he's a friggn' horse-faced space alien.
Elizabeth- Canadian.
Walter (assuming he's on the team)- Canadian

So.... two out of six are Canadian, one's a space alien anchored to a Canuck, one's a Yank who might have reason to switch her colors, and two are Yanks unlikely to change their colors.



The percentage is, to say the least, daunting.

Since when is Bill anchored to a Canadian? Simon Walters didn't seem very Canadian considering he was wearing a U.S. Army uniform.

Canadians can join the US Forces, so its not really all that big a discrepancy. Some Canadians joined the US Army in order to serve in Vietnam, for example. I don't know much about the military, but I suppose there may well be advantages to joining the US Military instead of the Canadian one in terms of pay or training.

[Hyperstorm]

Always he was going to be revealed Canadian in Stormbreaker was cut out due to space. However, in several interviews creators and editors have claimed Simon to be Canadian.

I just looked it up and your're wrong he was going to be revealed to be Canadian in Omega Flight but it was cut once it became a mini. And in those interviews with the Oeming or the editor where they say he was Canadian they also say Stormbreaker ended with him Canada when it actually ended with him in NYC meeting Spider-Man.


Canadians can join the US Forces, so its not really all that big a discrepancy. Some Canadians joined the US Army in order to serve in Vietnam, for example. I don't know much about the military, but I suppose there may well be advantages to joining the US Military instead of the Canadian one in terms of pay or training.

IIRC Canadians can only join the U.S. Army if they have dual citizenship in the U.S. unless they're First Nations.

[Corvus]

Its sort of a hard topic to look up, but various things I've found seem to imply that if you've got a green-card, you can join the army.

[Mario]

Just for the record...

Bill led the combined Avengers/FF/Asgardian/US Army task force during the Surtur War.

[Legerd]

If US agent happens to be the leader, it would have been by Stark's command, as he's Tony's man on the inside. I do not know who is the leader, but I can see how Stark and Richards might appoint him, if they feel they have more control over him.

Ben

IIRC wasn't USAgent only supposed to be a liaison for the US Gov't? And it seems, assuming plans weren't changed, that OF was to fight more mystical threats? That would make Talisman the resident expert (remember, she directed the team during the Sorceror and the Dream Queen story arcs) and most likely to lead.

[Transmetropolitan]

Since when is Bill anchored to a Canadian? Simon Walters didn't seem very Canadian considering he was wearing a U.S. Army uniform.

*Shrug*

You know, if you'd read what I said cloesely, you'd note that the point I'm driving at is that, whoever Bill is anchored to, it doesn't matter, because HE is a horse-faced Space Alien.

Hardly Canadian.

He could be anchored to the Hudson BAby for all I care, he's still going to be Beta Ray Bill.

[PWalk]

Actually now that I think about it I kinda like this move.

[Powersurge]

Whether or not Beta Ray Bill is a Canadian citizen, I have no problem with his link to Canada. Afterall, space alien though he may be, Bill embodies the power of a Norse god. And Canada is the home to every authentic viking artifact found in the New World.

Norse, alien, new world/Vinland/Canda... yeah. Seems to fit.

Not that I like BRB. In fact, while his new pics look cool, I always hated him and the idea of how he got his powers. LAME.

Nevertheless, in OF I'm willing to give him a chance, for his potential for weaving in a mystical "Vinland" story arc if nothing else.

[Corvus]

One thing I'm wondering about BRB, is there a distinct "Simon Walters" personality, or memories in there, or is he basically just wearing the man's corpse as a suit?

[Transmetropolitan]

One thing I'm wondering about BRB, is there a distinct "Simon Walters" personality, or memories in there, or is he basically just wearing the man's corpse as a suit?

Good question.

Jake Olsen, anyone?

[Hyperstorm]

One thing I'm wondering about BRB, is there a distinct "Simon Walters" personality, or memories in there, or is he basically just wearing the man's corpse as a suit?

He has some of the memories but not the personality.

[Phil]

In next week's Civil War Spotlight there's an interview with Oeming where he states (and I'm paraphrasing majorly here) that Talisman is the team leader, although not if US Agent can help it.

[-K-M-]

Anyone else think it was Talisman that saved Bill during Stormbreaker?

[Mokole]

In next week's Civil War Spotlight there's an interview with Oeming where he states (and I'm paraphrasing majorly here) that Talisman is the team leader, although not if US Agent can help it.

Well, that sounds OK, Talisman leading and butting heads with US Agent to keep him in line...

[SmurfInABlender]

it will be liek a reverse of rolls for Talisman.. reminds me of her and Heather butting heads

[Flightpath07]

Well, let me just first comment on the lead topic here - that being, Mike the Mailman is in the Guardian suit.

In my viewpoint, this sucks.

I still plan on buying this series...but if i do not like the direction it is taking, i will no longer be ordering more than one copy of each issue, as previously planned.I respect Mike Oeming, due to the interviews with him that I have read. But he is REALLY going to have to "wow" me to win me over now. God bless him, I hope he does "wow" me.

Let's be honest. This is NOT an Alpha Flight sequel. It is NOT an Alpha Flight book. Not at all. It is Omega Flight. I wish they had called it "Team Omega", I am somewhat miffed that they even waylaid the "Flight" part of the name a tiny bit.

Somebody in the suit who is not a Hudson? Not a Canadian? Not a member, or former-member, of Alpha Flight? Again, IMHO, not a good move.

I understand, somewhat, why this was done. But I still do not like it, and do not respect it. Not at all.

Respect. There is that word again. If this series does not find a way, in it's paltry number of issues, to do some real homage to AF, to find a way to make this Alpha-lover's heart soar again, then i sincerely hope it dies a nasty and silent death...and then somebody, somewhere down the line, says "Hey, why don't we bring back Alpha Flight!" Respect. All i want is some real respect and decency shown to my favourite heroes. So far, nothing. I need for you to "Wow" me, Mr Oeming, if you can...

Since this is not Alpha Flight...I sure do hope that Sasquatch does not join them. I do not mind if he is in the mini-series, but I hope at the end that he goes his own way. This is not his team. This is not AF. Sasquatch has been a member of AF since the beginning, a member through all three incarnations/volumes. Talisman...OF can have her. She was only a part-time, sometimes member of AF in volume 1, and she was not even present in the other two series. She is not really an AF member, so OF can have her. Doesn't matter to me. But they cannot have my Sasquatch to keep! Never!

Mike the Mailman in the suit...only an American with no understanding of what AF means/meant to this country would dare to do something that assinine.
(My apologies to all Americans who love AF for that
comment...)

[cmdrkoenig67]

Well, let me just first comment on the lead topic here - that being, Mike the Mailman is in the Guardian suit.

In my viewpoint, this sucks.[quote]

I'm an American and I agree with you totally on this, FP. It sucks beyond sucking to have an American in the Weapon Alpha/Vindicator/Guardian mapleleaf costume, representing your country. I would feel exactly the same way if it were Captain America and they put Mac in his suit....It just isn't right, on any level.

[quote="Flightpath07"]I still plan on buying this series...but if i do not like the direction it is taking, i will no longer be ordering more than one copy of each issue, as previously planned.I respect Mike Oeming, due to the interviews with him that I have read. But he is REALLY going to have to "wow" me to win me over now. God bless him, I hope he does "wow" me.

I feel the same here, as well...This series had better be good.


Let's be honest. This is NOT an Alpha Flight sequel. It is NOT an Alpha Flight book. Not at all. It is Omega Flight. I wish they had called it "Team Omega", I am somewhat miffed that they even waylaid the "Flight" part of the name a tiny bit.

I have to disagree here. As far as I'm concerned...If this is indeed, Alpha Flight's last chance (as Oeming had said), then it IS Alpha Flight Volume 4. If it's meant to be a seperate entity, then why that warning and/or threat? The prospect of it being so, certainly does not thrill me in the least. I love Alpha Flight and would hate that they never get a fair chance again because of it.


Somebody in the suit who is not a Hudson? Not a Canadian? Not a member, or former-member, of Alpha Flight? Again, IMHO, not a good move.

I understand, somewhat, why this was done. But I still do not like it, and do not respect it. Not at all.

Respect. There is that word again. If this series does not find a way, in it's paltry number of issues, to do some real homage to AF, to find a way to make this Alpha-lover's heart soar again, then i sincerely hope it dies a nasty and silent death...and then somebody, somewhere down the line, says "Hey, why don't we bring back Alpha Flight!" Respect. All i want is some real respect and decency shown to my favourite heroes. So far, nothing. I need for you to "Wow" me, Mr Oeming, if you can...

Again...I feel the same.


Since this is not Alpha Flight...I sure do hope that Sasquatch does not join them. I do not mind if he is in the mini-series, but I hope at the end that he goes his own way. This is not his team. This is not AF. Sasquatch has been a member of AF since the beginning, a member through all three incarnations/volumes. Talisman...OF can have her. She was only a part-time, sometimes member of AF in volume 1, and she was not even present in the other two series. She is not really an AF member, so OF can have her. Doesn't matter to me. But they cannot have my Sasquatch to keep! Never!

Elizabeth...Not really an AF member, so OF can have her??!!! How dare you say such a thing...Why you little...I oughta...AAARRGH! I adore Talisman...If OF can't have Sasquatch, they can't have her either!


Mike the Mailman in the suit...only an American with no understanding of what AF means/meant to this country would dare to do something that assinine.
(My apologies to all Americans who love AF for that
comment...)

No need to apologize...I feel the same (except I'm just not a Canadian).

I know I've been perceived as being very negative about Omega Flight, but why shouldn't I be? Some of my most favorite Marvel characters have been brain-washed, abused, made to look like fools and killed off. Then Marvel trots out a couple of the survivors and sticks them with a bunch of decidedly non-Alphan characters and calls it a "Flight" team. The killer of Alpha Flight from the US, wearing Guardian's costume is really pushing things too far. How Walter could even be able to stomach this person wearing his dead friend's uniform or how he could even come up with this idea is well beyond my understanding.

Yes, I'm angry and I may be that way for a while. I'm also trying very hard to be positive about this project, yet I keep fearing impending disaster. I'm going to keep trying to be optimistic about OF and I will also give the series a chance.

Dana

[Legerd]

what if he took Canadian citizenship...that would be cool.

How about this, if the States lets a Canadian take over as Captain America now that Rogers is dead, we'll be okay with Mike as Guardian/Weapon Alpha/whatever he's going to be called. :D

Uh....no. :roll: As far as I'm concerned, nobody should wear the Captain America suit anymore, other than Steve Rogers. American or not. Though other characters have nobley taken the Mantle of Captain America. The only real Cap is Steve. He made the suit. He died wearing the suit, protecting his people. R.I.P. Steve.

That was kinda the point to my joke. No fan would want anyone, let alone a non-American, wearing the CA outfit other than Steve Rogers. Same as how I feel about Mike the postman being given the Guardian suit.

[kozzi24]

except for they have no right to have a man on the inside in CANADA.. It isn't under Stark's Jurisdiction
Stark is now head of SHIELD, which is International

[mreeez]

And my worst fear has come to light. The mailman will be wearing the Guardian suit to learn to control his powers and to "honor" everyone that he killed, by being a hero for Canada. I'm so pissed............... :evil:

Well that puts to bed the comment of seeing only one Canadian in the prom art, huh?

[kozzi24]

I think it is a PR mistake to have an American in the suit. Others have likened this to an Iraqi in the Captain America suit, but that's extreme. I think of it as having a Mexican in the Captain America suit, one who speaks only Spanish. That would NOT go over in the US. How would a Briton feel if the role of Captain Britain or Union Jack was assumed by an American, or a German? Except for the fact that it is not as visual of a gaffe, this could be Marvel's worse move since Mark Gurenwald's Black Bucky.

The suit aside, I am trying to remember that this is a team book. The Mailman can create further team dynamics and dysfunction. The prospects of this team actually getting along are slim, so that is fully in the AF tradition.

Alas, generally the Mailman reveal has killed a good part of my enthusiasm for the book. I will stilll be trying it, and there's a lot to look forward to.

I think this team is intended to be the Inititive team for Alaska, helping Canada. I don't think Talisman and Sas are going to let it become that.

Mike Oeming's script will have to work hard for me to accept motivation for Sasquatch allowing the Mailman to take the Guardian suit, both because the mailman is PRESUMABLY American (we don't know for sure that he was not born in canada or one of his parents is Canadian) and because of his role in AF's death.

As for the death itself...Sasquatch could be lying to motivate the Mailman. Sasquatch could have been lied to about the casualties. This is comics...deaths are not permanent, as we were warned in the first news article about Captain America #25.

I for one do NOT want to see Baby Hudson addressed too specifically in Omega, anything beyond a general "she's with Heather's parents." The more vague her circumstances are kept, the more of a chance that Heather is secretly alive and concentrating on being a mother until she eventually resumes a super-heroic role.

[cmdrkoenig67]

And my worst fear has come to light. The mailman will be wearing the Guardian suit to learn to control his powers and to "honor" everyone that he killed, by being a hero for Canada. I'm so pissed............... :evil:

Well that puts to bed the comment of seeing only one Canadian in the prom art, huh?

Yeah...Pretty much.

Dana :( :cry:

[Phil]

How would a Briton feel if the role of Captain Britain or Union Jack was assumed by an American, or a German?

If the story was well told I wouldn't care in the slightest, tbh.

My point on the whole subject remains a wait and see and possibly vent after.

I take positive from the fact that the title isn't "Alpha Flight" which shows that possibly... possibly something has been learnt from the past two volumes attempts at recreating Byrne's dysfunctional family.
Yes characters I enjoyed reading about and that I feel had much more potential in them are in the land of temporary limbo that is comic's death, but maybe that's better than a volume 4 that's decreasing on substance further than 2&3.

I take solice in that Sas is still alive as he is arguably my favourite character and while this title may not be AF some of the spirit of that team and title can possibly live on through him.

I also trust Mike's writing ability generally and feel that while it may not be the ideal AF story that I'd have liked as an AF fan, it will be a storyline involving Sasquatch (and Talisman) that hopefully respects everything I enjoyed about AF.

I see OF less as a fourth volume or a spin off, but more as AF characters being used in another title, similar to Northstar in X-Men etc, and will be personally judging the story on a similar scale.
If the story is well written and there's no disrespect to AF all in all, I'll be happy.

[cmdrkoenig67]

How would a Briton feel if the role of Captain Britain or Union Jack was assumed by an American, or a German?

If the story was well told I wouldn't care in the slightest, tbh.

My point on the whole subject remains a wait and see and possibly vent after.

I take positive from the fact that the title isn't "Alpha Flight" which shows that possibly... possibly something has been learnt from the past two volumes attempts at recreating Byrne's dysfunctional family.

I don't think Marvel has learned anything from the two failed volumes...In fact, they seem to be making the same mistakes again and again, etc..etc....


Yes characters I enjoyed reading about and that I feel had much more potential in them are in the land of temporary limbo that is comic's death, but maybe that's better than a volume 4 that's decreasing on substance further than 2&3.

Who's to say an actual AF Volume four would be worse...It might even be better than both 2 and 3?


I take solice in that Sas is still alive as he is arguably my favourite character and while this title may not be AF some of the spirit of that team and title can possibly live on through him.

I also trust Mike's writing ability generally and feel that while it may not be the ideal AF story that I'd have liked as an AF fan, it will be a storyline involving Sasquatch (and Talisman) that hopefully respects everything I enjoyed about AF.

I see OF less as a fourth volume or a spin off, but more as AF characters being used in another title, similar to Northstar in X-Men etc, and will be personally judging the story on a similar scale.

"Another title" with a team based in Canada, with a few former-Alphans, defending Canada's people and called "fill-in-the-blank Flight"? Yeah...That's not AF, at all. :wink:


If the story is well written and there's no disrespect to AF all in all, I'll be happy.

Putting an American in a clearly Canadian mapleleaf costume is not disrespectful? Uh....Sure.

Dana :?

[Phil]

I don't think Marvel has learned anything from the two failed volumes...In fact, they seem to be making the same mistakes again and again, etc..etc....
I see clearly starting off as a limited rather than an ongoing that gets ended abruptly a step in the direction


Who's to say an actual AF Volume four would be worse...It might even be better than both 2 and 3?
Not I, that's for sure.
But with the team dead my guess is that they'd just fill it with more newly created Alpha wannabe-esque characters ala Flex and Yukon Jack... which doesn't flow for me.


"Another title" with a team based in Canada, with a few former-Alphans, defending Canada's people and called "fill-in-the-blank Flight"? Yeah...That's not AF, at all. :wink:
It's clearly not though.
It's not AF, but it's not advertising itself as such like volumes 2&3... surely that's a good thing?
Would you prefer it if they called themselves Alpha Flight?


Putting an American in a clearly Canadian mapleleaf costume is not disrespectful? Uh....Sure.
I don't consider it disrepectful to the the great series and writing that we've all come to love in the slightest.

I was talking about the actual writing rather than the nationality isisue.

Writing aside the idea of an American wearing a Canadian flag may be disrespectful personally to a Canadian, but I'm not one so can't hope to presume and prejudge.

[Flightpath07]

Elizabeth...Not really an AF member, so OF can have her??!!! How dare you say such a thing...Why you little...I oughta...AAARRGH! I adore Talisman...If OF can't have Sasquatch, they can't have her either!

Ooo...sorry, touched a nerve, did I?
:o

Hey, we all have our opinions on who are our fave AF characters. You are welcome to Eliz 2Yngmen being one of yours. She isn't one of mine. I mean, look at all the trouble that was caused in Volume 1 because of her! Anybody remember Snowbird's baby? Man, that was a horrid mess...

Anyways, I do not hate Eliz. But Sas was there from the very beginning. Talisman was only there sometimes, and often unwilling, and lots of the time she was cold and distant.

If either of these two are recognizable as AF members, I would think Walter would be the one most non-Flight fans could still pick out as a definite Flight member.

And since this is Omega Flight, not Alpha Flight, I stand by what i originally said - if the comic does not find a real and significant way to make this seem much more like Alpha Flight than it currently feels, and does not leave a way for some of our fave heroes to return to service for their country in the future, then I hope it dies hard and fast, never to be heard from again. And I hope that Sasquatch never officially joins the team. He is an Alpha Flight-er, true and true.

[Flightpath07]

Hey!

Here is another good point to consider, people...


In light of all that we now know about Omega Flight, how it ties in to Civil War, who is on the team, what their purpose is, and who is in the Mac-Hudson suit...
...has anybody considered what the real purpose was in killing off Alpha Flight?!?!!

I mean, really, think about this logically. Wouldn't this story have worked just as well if The Collective had killed one or two Alpha Flight members in the attack, and merely put the rest out of commission for quite a while? Really, wouldn't trhe Canadian Govt have freaked out without a superhero team to protect them, and still asked the Americans for help? Wouldn't Sasquatch have still been pissed, and had Mike wear the suit (what a dumb-a$& idea...groan...)?

What is the point in killing Alpha Flight? What is the point?

Pointless, pointless, all is pointless...

[Phil]

What is the point in killing Alpha Flight? What is the point?

Cheap shock tactics using a set of characters with 2 failed volumes in recent years that weren't currently being used to try and make THE COLLECTIVE look an actual threat.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I don't think Marvel has learned anything from the two failed volumes...In fact, they seem to be making the same mistakes again and again, etc..etc....
I see clearly starting off as a limited rather than an ongoing that gets ended abruptly a step in the direction


Who's to say an actual AF Volume four would be worse...It might even be better than both 2 and 3?
Not I, that's for sure.
But with the team dead my guess is that they'd just fill it with more characters ala Flex and Yukon Jack... which doesn't flow for me.

Not necessarilly...They could just as easily revive the team for the next volume. I'd rather they didn't fill it with newbies either.


"Another title" with a team based in Canada, with a few former-Alphans, defending Canada's people and called "fill-in-the-blank Flight"? Yeah...That's not AF, at all. :wink:
It's clearly not though.
It's not AF, but it's not advertising itself as such like volumes 2&3... surely that's a good thing?
Would you prefer it if they called themselves Alpha Flight?[/quote]

Oeming did, in a way..."Alpha Flight's last chance" and all that, remember? God forbid they start soliciting it in the same manner that Vol 3 was.


Putting an American in a clearly Canadian mapleleaf costume is not disrespectful? Uh....Sure.
I don't consider it disrepectful to the the great series and writing that we've all come to love in the slightest.

I was talking about the actual writing rather than the nationality isisue.

Writing aside the idea of an American wearing a Canadian flag may be disrespectful personally to a Canadian, but I'm not one so can't hope to presume and prejudge.[/quote]

Phil...In that costume, he's representing a specific country and he isn't even a citizen of said country...That in my eyes, is disrespectful and perhaps even a type of mockery...Implying that anyone, from anywhere can fill the role easily. Gawd!...I'm having visions of Marvel's solicits for AF, Vol 3 again...Ugh!

I'm not Canadian and I can totally see it as being insulting/offensive. I myself am not a hugely patriotic person, but I would be offended if they stuck somebody who wasn't an American citzen in the Captain America uniform.

Dana

[Phil]

Not necessarilly...They could just as easily revive the team for the next volume. I'd rather they didn't fill it with newbies either.

I agree. Hopefully they will.


God forbid they start soliciting it in the same manner that Vol 3 was.
Again, agreed.
As much as Lobdell was guilty for, I do know he didn't write the solicits...


Phil...In that costume, he's representing a specific country and he isn't even a citizen of said country...That in my eyes, is disrespectful and perhaps even a type of mockery...Implying that anyone, from anywhere can fill the role easily.
Then we've got different ways of looking at things.
I'm not saying either one of us is right or wrong.
I just don't agree.


I'm not Canadian and I can totally see it as being insulting/offensive. I myself am not a hugely patriotic person, but I would be offended if they stuck somebody who wasn't an American citzen in the Captain America uniform.

Again, to me they're just fictional stories and as long as there aren't slurs or stereotypes, it wouldn't bother me if an American or anyone else was in the Captain Britian uniform.

Moving over to the real world I personally have more in common with certain American beliefs and ideas and culture. To me areas of America feel more like home than areas of England.
I don't feel that tourists wearing Union Jack or I love London t-shirts are insulting.
I wouldn't feel insulted if an American or a Canadian died fighting as part of an English army to save English soil.
I wouldn't feel insulted if an American soccer player captained an English league soccer team and won them trophies. Hell, I'm used to it.

[Legerd]

Again, to me they're just fictional stories and as long as there aren't slurs or stereotypes, it wouldn't bother me if an American or anyone else was in the Captain Britian uniform.

That's the point, it is considered a slur to have an American wearing the Canadian flag in this case. As a European you may not get the resentment Canadians feel when other nations consider us watered down Americans. It's annoying to know that no matter what things your nation accomplishes, it's always considered a second class version of the US. So when real life writers and editors okay a story that shows an American wearing the uniform (designed after the nation's flag) of a Canadian hero who represented his country, it seems the folks at Marvel think any old American can substitute for a Canadian hero. A real life attitude appearing in a fictional story.
That may not be the intention, but that's how it's coming across.

[Corvus]

Again, to me they're just fictional stories and as long as there aren't slurs or stereotypes, it wouldn't bother me if an American or anyone else was in the Captain Britian uniform.

That's the point, it is considered a slur to have an American wearing the Canadian flag in this case. As a European you may not get the resentment Canadians feel when other nations consider us watered down Americans. It's annoying to know that no matter what things your nation accomplishes, it's always considered a second class version of the US. So when real life writers and editors okay a story that shows an American wearing the uniform (designed after the nation's flag) of a Canadian hero who represented his country, it seems the folks at Marvel think any old American can substitute for a Canadian hero. A real life attitude appearing in a fictional story.
That may not be the intention, but that's how it's coming across.

Exactly.

Phil, try to imagine how a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel about a "Captain Scotland" character, if there was one, being an English man with no Scottish roots.

Maybe that might illustrate a bit to you why Canadians find an American being put into a Canadian Flag based costume objectional. Canadian's live right next door to a huge power that overshadows our culture much of the time, and one that takes Canada for granted for the most part, being largely ignorant of our value to them. There's a long history of America ignoring Canada's contributions and taking us for granted. The most infamous example would be the aftermath of 9/11. Most air traffic headed for the US was diverted to Canada after the attacks, and Canada took care of thousands of Americans. And thats just one example.

When the American president was thanking the various countries that helped out not long after 9/11, Canada wasn't even mentioned. And thats just one of many examples of Canada being ignored, belittled or taken for granted by America.

As for Pointer, so far, there's no rational ewhy he'd be in the maple leaf design guardian suit. To be honest, I don't understand why the guardian suit still exists. If the battle with the Collective was traumatic enough to kill Mac and the others, the suit should be beyond repair.

If Oeming thought it was a good idea to have Pointer on the team, thats controversial, but I think it might have a lot of potential. However, theres no reason to slap him in Guardian suit.

Its disrespectful, and betrays a serious lack of understanding of Canadian attitudes. And that lack of understanding makes me very dubious of the quality of the upcoming series.

[Captain Primate]

As for Pointer, so far, there's no rational ewhy he'd be in the maple leaf design guardian suit. To be honest, I don't understand why the guardian suit still exists. If the battle with the Collective was traumatic enough to kill Mac and the others, the suit should be beyond repair.



actually, Walter says that Reed Richards built the suit. So, its a new suit. Though, your argument as to why it has a maple leaf on it is still valid.

[Obsidian3d]

While of course comics are not real-life, the stories (the same as any other fictional medium) tend to stem from real life events and attitudes. I tried to explain my distaste for the idea of Mike wearing the Guardian suit a few days ago but Legerd and Corvus explained it far better than I did. Well done guys.

I don't expect everyone to understand, but at least being conscious of it is important. The fact that editorial and management at Marvel don't seem to get it...reflects poorly I think. I am still hoping Mike and Scott have something really great up their sleeves and this will all be moot in a few days, but the global attitudes at large will still be a problem in my eyes. I don't have a suggestion for correcting that other than being vocal about it and trying to make it clear to others.

[Flightpath07]

I don't expect everyone to understand, but at least being conscious of it is important. The fact that editorial and management at Marvel don't seem to get it...reflects poorly I think. I am still hoping Mike and Scott have something really great up their sleeves and this will all be moot in a few days, but the global attitudes at large will still be a problem in my eyes. I don't have a suggestion for correcting that other than being vocal about it and trying to make it clear to others.

Exactly. Well said.

*grumbling under breath* I still do not think there was any reason to off all the AF characters in New Avengers. Thta's just plain mean, vindictive, and spiteful - not to mention lame. I mean, isn't the truth that they want us to beleive that they killed off AF because having Mike Pointer kill a whole superhero tema would show him to be bigtime powerful and stuff? But really, they killed AF cuz they figured nobody would really care or miss them - which seems to me is the same reason guys like Joe Q do not want ot hear from us fans - they don't care about us, or our love for AF.
Hopefully, Mike Oeming and crew do care, and will show us how much, by bringing some of the "dead" back eventually, once this puppy ratchets up into an ongoing title...

[Mokole]

I think the big thing is that, as most of you point out, an American wearing the flag suit. If it were Steve Rogers in the suit we'd still be miffed, but it's worse when it's aguy who was "used" to murder hundreds of people, many Canadians, is given the honour and distinction of wearing the flag suit for no good reason.

He has not shown any 'hero' ability, any desire to be a hero, no desire to protect Canada or anyone else, just remorse over what he was engaged in. He has no ties to heroism, brains, fighting ability, Canada, or the team. He is a guy with powers that allow him to be manipulated, so he gets a flag suit designed to help him use his powers, I guess to prevent his lack of usefulness from killing more people, so that he can be a hero.

Does he want to be a hero? Join OF? Become Canadian? Is he Canadian? Mike Oeming may have something up his sleeve to exaplin why this weak-willed accomplice murderer gets a free pass and gets trusted to join a foreign country's team and figure out what he can do not to kill anyone else, let alone save anyone.

His power is mutant energy absorption. Oeming will be sure to retconn that so that he can absorb other energy forms and actually use the energy. Likely that is what Richard's suit is for, to prevent Mailman from killing people by accident anymore and to actually have a way to use the energy he sucks in

So for me the character needs one or two things: a reason to actually be in OF as opposed to Great Lakes Avengers, and/or a name not tied to Guardian, Vindicator, or Weapon Alpha. Maybe he'll be Weapon Omega II.

It's clearly up to Mike Oeming to make this character more than the cypher he is now. After issue #2 we'll either know Mailman is a worthy Canadian, or an embarrassment.

[Transmetropolitan]

I'll say this much.

He'll make a handy casualty for the next off-panel throwaway massacre.... :roll:

[Corvus]

So for me the character needs one or two things: a reason to actually be in OF as opposed to Great Lakes Avengers, and/or a name not tied to Guardian, Vindicator, or Weapon Alpha. Maybe he'll be Weapon Omega II.


Weapon Penance? :D

[SmurfInABlender]

I sitll have to say the remorse idea works.. it worked with Spider man, and it can work with mailman mik,e we know he won't lead the team but he'll go and try and do the best for the team he can, if we go into it thiniuing "man this book will suck" then it will, but if we go in with optimism then we might be suprised

[SephirothsKiller]

You know what would have worked better though? The idea of Lou Sadler Jr. becoming a three dimensional character after seeing those around him killed. That would have been such an interesting storyline... I would have rather seen a mini with Lou than an ongoing with Mike. Well, at current projections anyway. And with Oeming as the writer for both series.

[Flightpath07]

So for me the character needs one or two things: a reason to actually be in OF as opposed to Great Lakes Avengers, and/or a name not tied to Guardian, Vindicator, or Weapon Alpha. Maybe he'll be Weapon Omega II.

I agree on the name thing. And I suspect that he will eventually be called Weapon Omega (hence the team name Omega Flight) - but I really hope that it does not end up so. I mean, come on, how much abuse can this WildChild fan take! First, my totally plausible idea that it is Kyle Gibney in the suit is shot down, and then to think that i may turn around and find that this Alpha-Killer (hey :idea: ! That'd be a cool name, wouldn't it? :twisted: ) guy steals Kyle's code-name too! Aargh! That would double-suck!

[cmdrkoenig67]

I sitll have to say the remorse idea works.. it worked with Spider man, and it can work with mailman mik,e we know he won't lead the team but he'll go and try and do the best for the team he can, if we go into it thiniuing "man this book will suck" then it will, but if we go in with optimism then we might be suprised

Okay...We get it. Smurf, this isn't just you (please don't take it personally...Others are doing too)...But do we have to hear this everytime somebody voices their opinion or has a problem with some aspect of the book? Why can't we discuss the upcoming series (our likes and dislikes), without being constantly asked to stay positive?

I don't know that the book is going to suck...None of us do (aside from Marvel editorial), I haven't read it yet, you haven't read it yet...I don't really see anyone actually saying that's it's going to suck. Sure...People may have issues with certain aspects of the series that have been revealed and those people are not wrong in their feelings, they just don't feel the same as some. There is no need for us who may not feel exactly the way others do, to be chastised for it or "coerced" into being positve.

Most of us (including myself) are hoping for the best with this book, even with the strikes (whether they be rumored, imagined or actual) against it. I'm really hoping that the series will create interest in classic Alpha Flight for new fans and revive interest in older fans who've left AF behind...Maybe even help bring classic Alpha back, somehow...How's that for being positive? Can people please stop trying to be Omega Flight cheerleaders and positivity coaches...It's getting as tiresome as any negativity.

Dana

[kozzi24]

I take positive from the fact that the title isn't "Alpha Flight" which shows that possibly...
I take solice in that Sas is still alive as he is arguably my favourite character and while this title may not be AF some of the spirit of that team and title can possibly live on through him.

I see OF less as a fourth volume or a spin off, but more as AF characters being used in another title, similar to Northstar in X-Men etc, and will be personally judging the story on a similar scale.
If the story is well written and there's no disrespect to AF all in all, I'll be happy.

Considering USAgent and Arachne's former ties, and Beta Ray Bill's ties to Thor, I think I would have preferred that this book be called Avengers North. The title may have more marketing value also, considering how big the Avengers franchise is right now.

[kozzi24]

His power is mutant energy absorption. Oeming will be sure to retconn that so that he can absorb other energy forms and actually use the energy. Likely that is what Richard's suit is for, to prevent Mailman from killing people by accident anymore and to actually have a way to use the energy he sucks in


And his absorbption could be the key to resuurecting those who fell in battle against him.
If Sasquatch is not necessarily staying with the team, could Mailman still be leaching Sasquatch's powers/strength due to some connection forged during the battle?

The problem with Mailman killing Alpha to me is one of continuity. If Sasquatch had been the sole survivor of a massacre of the Volume 3 team, I think most of us would be relieved that the distasteful "era" was permanently over. Why bring back four of the originals from space to slaughter them? If they had been left in space and the V3 team had been slaughtered, Canada would still be without a team post Civil War. All of which just makes the deaths more gratuitous and wholley unnecessary.

[Snowbird]

Forgive me if this has been addressed prior but I have a question: In CW: The Initiative, Sasquatch says that all of Alpha Flight (or at least those members that fought the collective) are dead. Is that correct? Doesn't Puck show up in an upcoming issue of X-men Unlimited, wherein he is seen trying to drink the memories of his fallen comrades away?

[SmurfInABlender]

I sitll have to say the remorse idea works.. it worked with Spider man, and it can work with mailman mik,e we know he won't lead the team but he'll go and try and do the best for the team he can, if we go into it thiniuing "man this book will suck" then it will, but if we go in with optimism then we might be suprised

Okay...We get it. Smurf, this isn't just you (please don't take it personally...Others are doing too)...But do we have to hear this everytime somebody voices their opinion or has a problem with some aspect of the book? Why can't we discuss the upcoming series (our likes and dislikes), without being constantly asked to stay positive?

I don't know that the book is going to suck...None of us do (aside from Marvel editorial), I haven't read it yet, you haven't read it yet...I don't really see anyone actually saying that's it's going to suck. Sure...People may have issues with certain aspects of the series that have been revealed and those people are not wrong in their feelings, they just don't feel the same as some. There is no need for us who may not feel exactly the way others do, to be chastised for it or "coerced" into being positve.

Most of us (including myself) are hoping for the best with this book, even with the strikes (whether they be rumored, imagined or actual) against it. I'm really hoping that the series will create interest in classic Alpha Flight for new fans and revive interest in older fans who've left AF behind...Maybe even help bring classic Alpha back, somehow...How's that for being positive? Can people please stop trying to be Omega Flight cheerleaders and positivity coaches...It's getting as tiresome as any negativity.

Dana

And I would liek to voice my opinion too... no one has come out and said "this book is goign to suck" but all I hear is "This was a dumb idea!" "This is the worst idea in marvel history" I mean it is obviously implied, I'm simply boiving my own opinion and saying i'm tryign to be positive.. I never said any of you were whining... I'm just trying to point out things that maybe people havn't looked at yet.

I appologize for not jumping on the "i hate marvel" Bandwagon

-Jonathan

[Barnacle13]

What is the point in killing Alpha Flight? What is the point?

Cheap shock tactics using a set of characters with 2 failed volumes in recent years that weren't currently being used to try and make THE COLLECTIVE look an actual threat.

Sorry Phil, but I must respectfully disagree with you on this. The characters who were killed, were primarily from a failed title from 15-20 years ago. And many of them weren't seen in the later issues of that title when it finally did fail. Which gets us back to Dana's sentiment. Alpha Flight was alsways a success. Once they started mucking around with the family feel and giving us characters we didn't recognize as Alpha, that's when the series all failed. Other than those characters in the first 30 or so issues of V1, there are only 2 others I ever really considered part of the team, Talisman and Persuasion. Anything that came after seemed very insignificant to the team. I'm sure all the Windshear, Flex, and Yukon Jack fans would disagree, but that's just one old timers opinion.

[Barnacle13]

Again, to me they're just fictional stories and as long as there aren't slurs or stereotypes, it wouldn't bother me if an American or anyone else was in the Captain Britian uniform.

That's the point, it is considered a slur to have an American wearing the Canadian flag in this case. As a European you may not get the resentment Canadians feel when other nations consider us watered down Americans. It's annoying to know that no matter what things your nation accomplishes, it's always considered a second class version of the US. So when real life writers and editors okay a story that shows an American wearing the uniform (designed after the nation's flag) of a Canadian hero who represented his country, it seems the folks at Marvel think any old American can substitute for a Canadian hero. A real life attitude appearing in a fictional story.
That may not be the intention, but that's how it's coming across.

Legerd, I can see that arguement going both ways. I could see Oeming using this as an opportunity to show the outrage the Canadian people would show towards such an idea. I could see him showing disdain for Mailman Mike by the Canadian people and perhaps an old fashioned witch hunt when the find out he killed their Alpha Flight. I'm not expecting it, but it could happen. I'm still with you on this. I think it is a slap in the face of Canadians and AF fans in general, but it could be used as a very strong plot device to get into the psyche of the Canadian people.

[Barnacle13]

Maybe that might illustrate a bit to you why Canadians find an American being put into a Canadian Flag based costume objectional. Canadian's live right next door to a huge power that overshadows our culture much of the time, and one that takes Canada for granted for the most part, being largely ignorant of our value to them. There's a long history of America ignoring Canada's contributions and taking us for granted. The most infamous example would be the aftermath of 9/11. Most air traffic headed for the US was diverted to Canada after the attacks, and Canada took care of thousands of Americans. And thats just one example.

When the American president was thanking the various countries that helped out not long after 9/11, Canada wasn't even mentioned. And thats just one of many examples of Canada being ignored, belittled or taken for granted by America.



Just because the President didn't acknowledge it doesn't mean the American people don't. Canada's aid post 9/11 was all over the media here. For me that day alone showed more fratenity between our countries than perhaps any other event in our histories. I'm proud to have a neighbor so willing to aid when we need it (which unfortunately seems to be often). Don't ever get the impression that Americans don't appreciate Canadians. Sure we'll poke fun at you, just as I'd assume you do us. Neighbors, friends, and siblings do that. As a whole we don't understand each other. We take each other for granted sometimes. It's human nature I think. That doesn't mean your efforts aren't recognized and appreciated though. Now that White House incident a long time ago and stealing the World Series for 2 years we may need to talk about, but other than that I think we love you like a brother, disfunctional a family as we may be.

[Legerd]

I appologize for not jumping on the "i hate marvel" Bandwagon

-Jonathan

This isn't about hating Marvel, or saying OF is going to suck or even about Mike the postman being on the team. This is about Mike wearing Guardian's uniform. Personally, I hope OF does great, and I have no ill will for Mike O, I just think it was wrong to put Mike in the suit. Put him in another suit and stick him on the team, that would be fine.


Legerd, I can see that arguement going both ways. I could see Oeming using this as an opportunity to show the outrage the Canadian people would show towards such an idea. I could see him showing disdain for Mailman Mike by the Canadian people and perhaps an old fashioned witch hunt when the find out he killed their Alpha Flight. I'm not expecting it, but it could happen. I'm still with you on this. I think it is a slap in the face of Canadians and AF fans in general, but it could be used as a very strong plot device to get into the psyche of the Canadian people.

It may very well be. I'm not condemning the title on this point, in fact I'll pick it up for as long as it runs, but this will be a sore spot for me.

[Obsidian3d]

Hehehe I think we're sort of arguing in circles now. The Initiative book is actually quite well written, and Silvestri's art looks in fine form. I'm certainly not dreading reading Omega Flight, and having Mailman Mike in the suit could have some very interesting plot points from both sides. I still disagree with it on a personal level, but narratively speaking it has potential.

Imagine what you can do with it. Tony Stark has what he considers his inside-man in US Agent. He'll expect Walker to follow orders and essentially run the team. Reed having made Weapon Omega's new suit could be similar to the suit Tony had made for Spiderman. It will likely have tracking capabilities, as well as a cut-off switch or something like that. Now, even though he's in a Canadian outfit, they are ostensibly in control of that person. If he doesn't do what they say he's screwed and goes back to jail.

The Canadian public will of course react much in the same way we have on the boards, crying foul over an attack on our soveriegnty by American officials etc etc. So between US Agent and Weapon Omega, plus dealing with other new personalities on the team, as well as whatever foes they'll be encountering...well let's just say there is a lot of possibility there.

So, I'm really hoping it will strike a chord with readers on both sides of the border and make them think a little more about their neighbor's value. It could get more than a little political along the way, but I'm hoping that at least it will have something poigniant to say in the process. :) So now it's up to Mike and Scott, and I'm looking forward to see where they go with it.

[Captain Primate]

Hehehe I think we're sort of arguing in circles now. The Initiative book is actually quite well written, and Silvestri's art looks in fine form. I'm certainly not dreading reading Omega Flight, and having Mailman Mike in the suit could have some very interesting plot points from both sides. I still disagree with it on a personal level, but narratively speaking it has potential.

Imagine what you can do with it. Tony Stark has what he considers his inside-man in US Agent. He'll expect Walker to follow orders and essentially run the team. Reed having made Weapon Omega's new suit could be similar to the suit Tony had made for Spiderman. It will likely have tracking capabilities, as well as a cut-off switch or something like that. Now, even though he's in a Canadian outfit, they are ostensibly in control of that person. If he doesn't do what they say he's screwed and goes back to jail.

The Canadian public will of course react much in the same way we have on the boards, crying foul over an attack on our soveriegnty by American officials etc etc. So between US Agent and Weapon Omega, plus dealing with other new personalities on the team, as well as whatever foes they'll be encountering...well let's just say there is a lot of possibility there.

So, I'm really hoping it will strike a chord with readers on both sides of the border and make them think a little more about their neighbor's value. It could get more than a little political along the way, but I'm hoping that at least it will have something poigniant to say in the process. :) So now it's up to Mike and Scott, and I'm looking forward to see where they go with it.

Very well said!

[Phil]

Again, to me they're just fictional stories and as long as there aren't slurs or stereotypes, it wouldn't bother me if an American or anyone else was in the Captain Britian uniform.

That's the point, it is considered a slur to have an American wearing the Canadian flag in this case. As a European you may not get the resentment Canadians feel when other nations consider us watered down Americans. It's annoying to know that no matter what things your nation accomplishes, it's always considered a second class version of the US. So when real life writers and editors okay a story that shows an American wearing the uniform (designed after the nation's flag) of a Canadian hero who represented his country, it seems the folks at Marvel think any old American can substitute for a Canadian hero. A real life attitude appearing in a fictional story.
That may not be the intention, but that's how it's coming across.

Right, but my point is, that not being Canadian I don't have that to base it upon.
All I can do is enjoy the story for what it is and hope it doesn't disrespect Byrne's writing, real-life politics aside.

[Phil]

Sorry Phil, but I must respectfully disagree with you on this. The characters who were killed, were primarily from a failed title from 15-20 years ago.
The name of which was given to the two following volumes which are fresh in the public memory and are the only Alpha Flight that some younger readers may have ever read. The characters are still associated with those volumes simply because of the team.


And many of them weren't seen in the later issues of that title when it finally did fail. Which gets us back to Dana's sentiment. Alpha Flight was alsways a success.
If it was always a success they wouldn't have changed it and it wouldn't have failed, surely?


Once they started mucking around with the family feel and giving us characters we didn't recognize as Alpha, that's when the series all failed.
Why did they have to 'muck around' with the family feel though?
Because they were losing sales and needed something different else they'd just be reprinting Byrne's run ad nauseum.


Other than those characters in the first 30 or so issues of V1, there are only 2 others I ever really considered part of the team, Talisman and Persuasion. Anything that came after seemed very insignificant to the team.
Yet is still canon and therefore connected to the characters that were killed off.

[Phil]

Phil, try to imagine how a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel about a "Captain Scotland" character, if there was one, being an English man with no Scottish roots.
I'm not one, so can't.


Maybe that might illustrate a bit to you why Canadians find an American being put into a Canadian Flag based costume objectional.
It doesn't in the slightest I'm afraid.
I'm not Canadian and never will be, so why would I try to insult a Canadian by presuming what they think?
All I can do is get my own personal enjoyment from the stories.
To me the Canadian aspect of Alpha Flight has always been irrelevant.
I just enjoyed the stories and the writing.
Had Byrne been born in Germany and put AF in Germany back in Uncanny X-Men I'd still enjoy the title for what it was (although obviously there's less of the mystic element etc etc that would change the title slightly).
To me the book was about the team dyanamics, not the country dynamics.

Omega Flight will hopefully be the same.


Canadian's live right next door to a huge power that overshadows our culture much of the time, and one that takes Canada for granted for the most part, being largely ignorant of our value to them. There's a long history of America ignoring Canada's contributions and taking us for granted. The most infamous example would be the aftermath of 9/11. Most air traffic headed for the US was diverted to Canada after the attacks, and Canada took care of thousands of Americans. And thats just one example.

When the American president was thanking the various countries that helped out not long after 9/11, Canada wasn't even mentioned. And thats just one of many examples of Canada being ignored, belittled or taken for granted by America.
That's fair enough, but I read comics for escapism and that doesn't enter my mind.


As for Pointer, so far, there's no rational ewhy he'd be in the maple leaf design guardian suit.
There's no rational why any real life human being would be....

[Corvus]

Phil, try to imagine how a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel about a "Captain Scotland" character, if there was one, being an English man with no Scottish roots.
I'm not one, so can't.

So, you don't have an imagination? No offense, but thats rather a cop out.

[Ben]

Speaking of a proud, patriotic Canadian, who has no time for certain "American attitudes" I have absolutely no problem with Michael Pointer wearing the "Guardian" suit. He was involved the the apparent death of Guardian and other members of Alpha Flight. He feels the need to atone for his actions. He has a debt to repay to Canada, and wearing this suit to defend the country seems in some way fitting to me.

Ben

[SmurfInABlender]

It doesn't in the slightest I'm afraid.
I'm not Canadian and never will be, so why would I try to insult a Canadian by presuming what they think?
All I can do is get my own personal enjoyment from the stories.
To me the Canadian aspect of Alpha Flight has always been irrelevant.
I just enjoyed the stories and the writing.
Had Byrne been born in Germany and put AF in Germany back in Uncanny X-Men I'd still enjoy the title for what it was (although obviously there's less of the mystic element etc etc that would change the title slightly).
To me the book was about the team dyanamics, not the country dynamics.

Omega Flight will hopefully be the same.



You know, you bring up a good point. The beauty of Alpha Flight ESSPECIALLY Byrne's flight, delt with the fact that they were in their own lives.. they didn't always get along and all had deapth... Seems to me this new one might accomplish the idea of them having their individual world and reason for being in Omega...

I think the problem is, there are so many great places for storylines, so many possible amazing storylines.. that it is going to be hard to jsut have a 5 issue mini... this is unlike V2 and V3 which were written TO BEGIN WITH in a dead end.. I mean V3 had the main alpha flight gone... so what? they were never goign to come back? it was stupid, and V2 had the government conspiricy which had potential in a way but they took away most of the personality of our favorite characters and threw in a bunch of new ones.

Here we have a set of Predefined characters who will definently not get along, I mean, do you think Arachne will take any crap from Iron Man's inside man? And so all are defined in some way but at the same time are not an "all star" team so they can be written in a way where there is conflict within the team.

The fact that Mike isn't Canadian I can understand as being perhaps insulting.. But I think it can work... and I agree with Phil on the fact that because I'm not Canadian I can't relate.. even though you can throw analogies of filling Captain America's shoes... I wouldn't feel insulted honestly, I mean Captain America would stand even MORE for America if an Immigrant to the country took over.

Who knows if I'm even making sense

[varo]

i'd really hate to say this, but i'm american and i never really cared that alpha flight was based in canada and never saw the characters as "canadian" i just always liked the characters and the stories. i could care less if the series was based in iceland.

then again i can understand if canadians are upset that a candian is not wearing their flag. its just that i think michael wearing the suit makes sense, its not forced.

[DelBubs]

I think there's been some good points raised here about Mailman Mike and the suit. The question that comes to my mind is, "Is Guardian/Vindicator" a person or an idea. Captain America to me has always been a physical representation of what America is about. Can we consider Guardian as the same, but in regards to Canada. Does it matter who wears the suit as long as the true values of Canada and the concept of Guardian/Vindicator are represented by that wearer ?

[Flightpath07]

I think there's been some good points raised here about Mailman Mike and the suit. The question that comes to my mind is, "Is Guardian/Vindicator" a person or an idea. Captain America to me has always been a physical representation of what America is about. Can we consider Guardian as the same, but in regards to Canada. Does it matter who wears the suit as long as the true values of Canada and the concept of Guardian/Vindicator are represented by that wearer ?

I think it does matter. A lot.
If it is true that Reed Richards made the current "Guardian" suit that Mike is to be wearing in the mini-series, it should matter a lot.
I realize that Mr Oeming prob fully intends to hash all this out in the comic itself; the American control over what happens on Canadian soil, the American-made suit that allows Americans to control and monitor the American non-hero in the suit made from a Canadian flag that used to be worn by the most respected hero in Canada, the American heroes in Canada to try to clean up the mess that American villain (and heros) made while fleeing one country for another.
But even igf Mr Oeming is writing disrespect to Canada into the mini-series so that he can expose it and deal with it - I still do not have to like it.
It still sucks.
Does the end really justify the means?
Is it worth it? I mean, even if Mr Oeming writes the comics so that even the thickest headed person can see that he is saying that America should have a lot more respect for its Canadian neighbors than it does - is that worth the cost of seeing our flag, and James Mac Hudson, disrespected, and having lost all of our nations greatest heroes in a useless battle that wasn't even seen?

[DelBubs]

There would seem to be a lot of ifs and buts in there Flightpath. Couldn't it just be that a man who was used against his will to commit atrocities wishes to atone for what he was forced to do? Sas was the one who gave him the suit, Sas found the members to make up AF in vol 3, it wouldn't have been that hard a job to find someone else. Maybe this just shows that Walt is a humanitarian and wishes to ease the grief that Mike is going through.

Sometimes something is just what it seems. I ain't saying this is thew case, just that it might be and might be's is all we have until the book comes out.

One thing I do agree on is that a team of AF's staure should not have been wiped out off panel, their demise is cheapened if that is all we get.

[Mokole]

Well, they made the suit to look like Guardian because they want fans to recognize this is a Flight comic, not some random comic. Someone has always worn a Guardian suit or close (biggest 'reach' is MML) so without a Guardian-looking suit the recognition factor falls. Captain Britain in Excalibur, Captain America in Avengers.

[Phil]

Phil, try to imagine how a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel about a "Captain Scotland" character, if there was one, being an English man with no Scottish roots.
I'm not one, so can't.

So, you don't have an imagination? No offense, but thats rather a cop out.

No, it's more a case of me respecting the Scots and not presuming how they think or act or trying to enforce my viewpoints into their mouths.
I'm not Scottish so how dare I presume to act like a Scotsman?
For me to stereotype an entire nations thoughts and attempt to speak for them? That's just rude.

[SephirothsKiller]

Phil, try to imagine how a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel about a "Captain Scotland" character, if there was one, being an English man with no Scottish roots.
I'm not one, so can't.

So, you don't have an imagination? No offense, but thats rather a cop out.

No, it's more a case of me respecting the Scots and not presuming how they think or act or trying to enforce my viewpoints into their mouths.
I'm not Scottish so how dare I presume to act like a Scotsman?
For me to stereotype an entire nations thoughts and attempt to speak for them? That's just rude.

Okay, I know alot of people from all over the British Isles and so I'll tell you. Scots, Welsh people, the Irish, and so on would probably be really offended. Particularly the Welsh. I mean I'm sure not every person from these places has these hangups, but everyone I know from these nations does.

[Phil]

Okay, I know alot of people from all over the British Isles and so I'll tell you. Scots, Welsh people, the Irish, and so on would probably be really offended. Particularly the Welsh. I mean I'm sure not every person from these places has these hangups, but everyone I know from these nations does.

Okay, so you've just spoken for every single Scottish/Welsh/Irish person alive???? Every single one of them has the same carbon copy thought without any right for deviation or individualism and you have the right to speak for them????

I'm pretty sure that having been born and raised within the British Isles I know more than 'a lot' of Scottish and Welsh people, not to mention that the Irish have nothing to do with the British Isles but rather the United Kingdom (your presumption that they're part of the British Isles is in fact an offensive comment in itself to some people...), and I'm proud to say that we're allowed independant thoughts and viewpoints over here and what offends one person may not necessarilly offend another...

How can you be so sure they "probably would be offended" ?
Surely that's just stereotyping and pigeonholing people's thoughts just because of where they're from, implying that every single Scots, Welsh etc thinks exactly the same?

Maybe that just says more about the people you know from these nations....


Man...
Seriously, I need to leave this thread now.

I'm going back to talking about pretty pictures and fictional words in a fictional universe that has it's own number.

[SephirothsKiller]

I actually wrote: "I'm sure not every person from these places has these hangups" and thus did not speak for every single Scott/Welsh/Irish person alive. I was merely pointing out an attitude which I have found among many of my friends from these places and which I have been informed by these friends is a widespread belief. I'm deeply sorry :roll: if my reporting these beliefs has offended you Phil.

Really though, I wouldn't get all defensive if someone wrote "Canadians like hockey" even though there are exceptions to this. I don't expect someone to write academically: "There is widespread sentiment among the Canadian population that Hockey is an enjoyable sport, as evidenced by its place as one of Canada's two national sports. It must be noted however that not all Canadians like Hockey, some people find its violence distasteful, while others dislike it for other reasons. The exact number of Canadians professing to like hockey is X%. (Source: X)." People make informed generalizations, that isn't anything new, and that is what I did.


Oh, and many sources still refer to Ireland as a member of the British Isles. http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Regions/ We know better but it's just easier. Less letters.

[SmurfInABlender]

On a Lighter note I wouldn't mind a super hero team that had members from all over the british isles.. liek maybe Banshee and Union Jack and uh.. (Quick name me a scotish hero) it woudl be cool to have like excaliber but one for all of the british isles..

or an all Irish team would be awesome even if they wern't always in Ireland

[Corvus]

Phil, try to imagine how a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel about a "Captain Scotland" character, if there was one, being an English man with no Scottish roots.
I'm not one, so can't.

So, you don't have an imagination? No offense, but thats rather a cop out.

No, it's more a case of me respecting the Scots and not presuming how they think or act or trying to enforce my viewpoints into their mouths.
I'm not Scottish so how dare I presume to act like a Scotsman?
For me to stereotype an entire nations thoughts and attempt to speak for them? That's just rude.

Oh please. I didn't ask you to stereotype an entire nation's thoughts, or any of the other garbage you're talking about in your reply. I tried to use a local example that might illustrate my viewpoint to you.

Thanks for the strawman though. Any other intellectual fallacies you'd like to toss my way while you're at it?

[Flightpath07]

](*,) #-o

We are all (sorry - generalization, there!) getting a little testy lately, :-s



I think we all need a good dose of comics reading to level off those nasty emotions.
Since Omega Flight is not yet out...
I am going to go and continue what I started a few days ago - rating Alpha Flight Volume 1 comics in batches of ten (1-10, 11-20, etc) for my own pleasure, seeing which of the groups of ten are of higher quality overall (IMHO) and which are not.
Those interested, you can see this at
http://canadas-own-the-flight.blogspot.com/
but bear with me, it may take a while to go through them all.

The rest of you, get some good sleep, eat healthy, and think good thoughts.
"Slainte Mhath, Slainte Mhor"

[Legerd]

Right, but my point is, that not being Canadian I don't have that to base it upon.

I know, that was why I was trying to explain it to you. :D

[Captain Primate]

I wonder if there are similar Excalibur forums that lamented the fact that only two of the members of the New Excalibur were English?

p.s. maybe three members, I can't remember if Sage is English.

[SmurfInABlender]

even the original excaliber had nightcrawler who is german and kitty pride who is american....

I wish Excaliber was all british... there are enough british heroes out there to do so.. and if not..make some lol

[Tiberius Bane]

So, Im thinking last night about this whole Guardian is an American thing and I thought, hey, Northstar should become the new Captain America!
He was killed, resurrected and brainwashed. He slaughtered hundreds of citizens on American soil while working with the Hand. He even attacked SHIELD. He's got a lot to atone for. He should become the new Captain America to atone for those sins and make it up to the country he did it in.

What?

MikeM

[Barnacle13]

See now that would be interesting! How would homophobic America react to Northstar in the Cap suit? I hate to say it, but I'd love to see that happen JUST to see the media and Conservative Christian response! But then I guess I'm a little twisted like that. Great suggestion! I don't think folks would have any issue with him being Canadian. I'll grant you that.

This would also fit into Marvel's mindset of fringe characters doing pennance. Speedball, Mailman Mike, why not Northstar? Of course they'd probably ruin him by having the Cap suit magically transform him into a strapping hetero American! Or maybe he'd become metrosexual when he put on the suit. The possibilities are limitless.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Just call the team Avengers North and be done with it.
...

My anger over the hyper-promotion of Mighty Avengers and the slight promotion of Omega Flight aside, when I went to find a copy of CW:I on Saturday in Wheaton, I also stopped at the comic shop in Silver Spring, and it had a whole bunch of MA...just waiting to be bought. Not being a big fan of any of the characters in MA and even less of an Iron Man fan now that he has "won" the Civil War, I let it pass. But Captain America #25 is sold out in every comic shop I've been to! :twisted:

I write all of that to write this: after six months to get prepared for the option that I didn't want to see (Mailman Mike in the "Guardian" suit), the Omega Flight segment in CW:I was well-done. Walter was matter-of-fact and no-nonsense, didn't say a word to Reed as he entered, and didn't seem happy at all. Mailman Mike seems genuinely remorseful, and giving him some backstory was an excellent idea. I don't really know how his mutant-absorbing powers are going to be used, but I'm going to make another assumption that since REED RICHARDS designed this particular suit, it will function better than the one spliced together from the Delphine Courtney robot that grafted itself onto Heather.

I don't know who will lead OF, but the way Walter was portrayed in this issue is how I envision Walter assembling (no pun intended) a team.
I also think that Walter wouldn't try to lead this team all by himself, like some average, everyday team. Walter would try to avoid interteam rivalries with as diverse a bunch of teammates as this and would co-lead with someone else. Whether this would cause tension would be fodder for future stories.

Lastly, after the five-issue mini, I hope Mailman Mike gets a recurring role in a Bendis book because the way he is written, I'd say this is a character he likes.

[cmdrkoenig67]

And I would liek to voice my opinion too...

You have and you are now...Your point?


no one has come out and said "this book is goign to suck" but all I hear is "This was a dumb idea!" "This is the worst idea in marvel history" I mean it is obviously implied, I'm simply boiving my own opinion and saying i'm tryign to be positive..

Then why use the word "we" as in..."if we go into it thinking "man this book will suck" then it will, but if we go in with optimism then we might be suprised"? You really shouldn't use "we" if you're referring to yourself. If you meant that we as a group should be optimistic and positive, then I'd have to say...Please don't try to tell us how "we" should feel.


I never said any of you were whining...

You said above..."but all I hear is "This was a dumb idea!" "This is the worst idea in marvel history"...Sounds like you're saying that we are whining. It's just how some of us feel, you feel differently...So leave it at that, then.


I'm just trying to point out things that maybe people havn't looked at yet.

I appologize for not jumping on the "i hate marvel" Bandwagon

-Jonathan

No need to apologize for having your own view and there's really no need for the snide "i hate marvel Bandwagon" comments.

Please let us have our own views, thanks.

Dana

[Canucklehead]

Soooo, getting back to the book (should I wave a white flag?.. wait Walter waived a flag suit infront of Mailman Mike that started all this... maybe not the best idea...) Anyway...

Just a quick observation at the preview art in the back of CW:I. The Beautiful work by Scott Kolins looks a little out of focus to me. Anyone else notice this? Look at the page before and page after, you'll see what I mean. I know his new style is to smudge the shading, but I doubt he smudged the outlines. Is this just a printing error? I hope so cause it kinda gave me a headache trying to focus. I don't know if I could get through 22 pages! 8)

[SmurfInABlender]

yeah I noticed it as a little more blurred but i think its trying to kind of put a little more of an "artistic" feel to it then a comic feel perhaps.. but i can see both sides

[mreeez]

I thought the big reveal about who is in the Guardian suit was supposed to be in issue #2 of OF?

[Canucklehead]

I thought the big reveal about who is in the Guardian suit was supposed to be in issue #2 of OF?

It all changed when the book was reduced to a mini.

[Obsidian3d]

Hey that's a good point. I do (albeit vaguely) recall that being mentioned! Can't remember where or from who though. Does anyone know if we're imagining things here? I wonder if it ended up being one of the changes they had to make due to the restructuring from ongoing to mini-series.

[mreeez]

I thought the big reveal about who is in the Guardian suit was supposed to be in issue #2 of OF?

It all changed when the book was reduced to a mini.

I thought the change that was made when the book got downgraded was that the reveal went from issue 3 to issue 2?

[Mokole]

Yes, that's what Mike Oeming said, the reveal was to be in #3, when it was downgraded he had to push it into issue #2.

But did Mike know nothing of Initiatives, or....

[Flightpath07]

Hey, does anybody remember a while back, when Loki was asked if, since he knew well in advance who was going ot be in the Guardian suit, he thought us Alpha Flight fans would be pleased with what was revealed?
I beleive his answer ot the question went something like this...
" :-k :-# "

Well, now I understand why that was his answer...

[Barnacle13]

I thought the big reveal about who is in the Guardian suit was supposed to be in issue #2 of OF?

Perhaps this is when it is revealed to the Canadian public and then all hell breaks loose in Marvel continuity. Unless Marvel Canadians are different from you fine folks here, eh :wink: ?

[-K-M-]

If anything look at the postive side, with Mike being in the suit it definetly has people talking.

[Mokole]

Just to change velocities :roll:

I asked Marvel what was the status of Alpha Flight, who died in New Avengers, what's the status of Lobdell Flight, and got no answer for a long time, but now:

"The people who died in New Avengers #16, by the hand of the Collective, were the Alpha Flight members who returned from seeing the Plodex plus the two new recruits."

And as to the time displaced members and where they are:

Omega Flight editor Andy Schmidt says:
"To my knowledge, we've never said one way or the other, so, technically, they still exist. At least, until someone says they don't."

The second quote was passed on to me by a buddy who has two sons who got subscriptions to OF, no wonder he got an answer faster! :wink:

But an answer is an answer.

[Flightpath07]

And as to the time displaced members and where they are:

Omega Flight editor Andy Schmidt says:
"To my knowledge, we've never said one way or the other, so, technically, they still exist. At least, until someone says they don't."

GREAT news!
So, the possibility that some of our heroes could reappear in OF pages, or other comics at some point in time, is in existence.
Yahoo!!!
Hope still lives. It is a great great day for Alpha Flight.

[Transmetropolitan]

Hope still lives. It is a great great day for Alpha Flight.

I dunno, man.

The temporal copies...

*sigh*

It's kinda like non-alcoholic beer.

[Uncle Toxie]

Sorry if this is a stupid question (I still have not read vol 3) but there are Alpha members lost in time? So this means that, conceivably; someone can pull a Captain Mar-Vel and pull them into the current time stream?

[-K-M-]

Sorry if this is a stupid question (I still have not read vol 3) but there are Alpha members lost in time? So this means that, conceivably; someone can pull a Captain Mar-Vel and pull them into the current time stream?

Temporal Copies: http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Alpha_Flight_%28Temporal_Copies%29

Magical Coins: http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Alpha_Flight_Magical_Coins

[Uncle Toxie]

Sorry if this is a stupid question (I still have not read vol 3) but there are Alpha members lost in time? So this means that, conceivably; someone can pull a Captain Mar-Vel and pull them into the current time stream?

Temporal Copies: http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Alpha_Flight_%28Temporal_Copies%29

Magical Coins: http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Alpha_Flight_Magical_Coins

Wow, what a freakin' mess, thanks for the info Your Majesty. :)

[Barnacle13]

The only thing even slightly compelling about this fact would be the look on Mailman Mike's face when he ran into them.

[Flightpath07]

The only thing even slightly compelling about this fact would be the look on Mailman Mike's face when he ran into them.
\:D/ :twisted: :lol:

[Phil]

I actually wrote: "I'm sure not every person from these places has these hangups" and thus did not speak for every single Scott/Welsh/Irish person alive. I was merely pointing out an attitude which I have found among many of my friends from these places and which I have been informed by these friends is a widespread belief. I'm deeply sorry :roll: if my reporting these beliefs has offended you Phil.
Never once did I say I was offended.
Nice use of sarcasm there too., really adds to the maturity of your point. As does the double standards...


Really though, I wouldn't get all defensive if someone wrote "Canadians like hockey" even though there are exceptions to this. I don't expect someone to write academically: "There is widespread sentiment among the Canadian population that Hockey is an enjoyable sport, as evidenced by its place as one of Canada's two national sports. It must be noted however that not all Canadians like Hockey, some people find its violence distasteful, while others dislike it for other reasons. The exact number of Canadians professing to like hockey is X%. (Source: X)." People make informed generalizations, that isn't anything new, and that is what I did.
Yet you get defensive about a fictional American character wearing a Canadian flag and chastise me for not feeling the empathy of Canada and thus hating the book, before it's even out?



Oh, and many sources still refer to Ireland as a member of the British Isles. http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Regions/ We know better but it's just easier. Less letters.
Many sources state Al Gore created the interweb... That's the thing with the interweb...

[Phil]

Oh please. I didn't ask you to stereotype an entire nation's thoughts, or any of the other garbage you're talking about in your reply. I tried to use a local example that might illustrate my viewpoint to you.
You wanted me to imagine how A Scotsman would feel, implying that every single Scotsman feels the same as you expect every single Canadian to feel hatred for the fact that an American is wearing the mapleleafed suit.
We've already had Ben, who is a patriotic Canadian, stating that he's not disgusted with the character wearing the costume so that's already shown the diversity there is and that I shouldn't boycott the book because of it.


Thanks for the strawman though. Any other intellectual fallacies you'd like to toss my way while you're at it?
I don't believe I have, merely given you an opposing opinion to your own which you apparantly cannot handle....

[Phil]

Right, but my point is, that not being Canadian I don't have that to base it upon.

I know, that was why I was trying to explain it to you. :D

I understand your explanation I just cannot feel it, if you get me?
I commend your rational debate of the issue and have no problems at all with what you wrote.

[Le Messor]

I post this not as a condemnation of the OF series (which I haven't read yet) nor as a condemnation of Mailman Mike being on the team.
As always, I will decide what I think of the series WHEN (not IF) I buy it. If it's only 5 issues, there's not much gonna make me not buy all of them.

This post is, however, a condemnation of one aspect of all that; as Corvus and others have said.


BTW, you should be glad, because when Millar FIRST told me about this series, before Oeming was even on-board, the plan was for an ALL AMERICAN team.
I should be glad because it could be worse? That's not how I think. Sorry.
I don't like the idea of people threatening me with something terrible, then giving me something slightly less terrible, and expecting me to be happy about it.
"I'm gonna cut your arm off!!!" NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! "Okay, I'll just cut your hand off. You should be so grateful!"
(Just my way of showing how people could abuse such a concept, not saying Omega is bad, certainly not comparing it to loss of limb.)


"Postman Mike" was NOT in control of himself when he killed AF.
This is a ... way to get the attention of readers that wouldn't normally get a "flight" book.
...lets read it...
I feel pretty sure that Oeming has some interesting angles planned if he decided to use this character.
Marvel has put out what it feels will give omega the best chance to succeed, whether we agree or not.
To me, this is only one TRUE Guardian and he died an amazing death in Alpha Flight #12 and that was the end of his story. Canada's hero was never the costume, it was the man inside the costume. To me, Alpha Flight was never about BEING Canada or Canadian, it was about being in service TO Canada and Canadians.
I think that was always the point of the team.
For the first time I see a leader who has something to vindicate..
he feels personally responsable for something and now has devoted his life to making sure no one else can do that...
I think, written the right way, it will be Postman Mike that soars Omega into an ongoing.

(Apologies for extreme quotation here...)

These points have two things in common:
1) They are all very good points.
2) Not one of them excuses draping the Canadian flag around a non-Canadian.

If Mailman Mike is on the team, at least have the decency to use a different costume.
It's like having a German as Captain America--or one of the 9/11 hijackers. (But I like Oeming's suggestion of making Lee Harvey Oswald president. :))
I wouldn't like an Australian in the Maple Leaf suit, either.

As for who? Why not take an officer from the Canadian milit'ry? It'd make total sense to the characters, even if none of the readers have heard of him / her before. (And therefore, we're letting sales dictate story. Never a good idea.)

Come to think of it, a non-Canadian 'Captain Canada' defending Canada next to a USAian 'Captain America'... What're you trying to say here?
Come to think of it, the guy who slaughtered AF on a team named after the one that killed the original Mac... What're you trying to say here?

I have my doubts about a USAian team being able to portray Canada positively.


It's annoying to know that no matter what things your nation accomplishes, it's always considered a second class version of the US.
We (Australians... me, anyways) love you! "Americans go south of the border to buy cheap food and clothing in some backwards country, while Canadians go south of the border to buy cheap food and clothing in some backwards country."


Buy this book and in mass quantities so it can last long enough for Omeing to make some changes.
But if I buy it in large quantities, Marvel will think it doesn't NEED changes!
Promising change is how they got me to buy so many issues of v2. :evil:


walter has never been a leader
Are you forgetting v3?
If so, explain how!


Well that puts to bed the comment of seeing only one Canadian in the prom art, huh?
Ironically, by making the 'one Canadian' most people saw--the person in the Maple Leaf--not Canadian.


...the past two volumes' attempts at recreating Byrne's dysfunctional family.
Their what now? I saw no attempt at anything remotely Byrnese in either book.


I see OF less as a fourth volume or a spin off, but more as AF characters being used in another title, similar to Northstar in X-Men etc, and will be personally judging the story on a similar scale.
I'm beginning to agree with you there.
However, if I agreed with you completely, I wouldn't pick it up. Other than being 'Alpha Flight' and the art, nothing about OF particularly interests me. This isn't a judgement of the quality of the book. It a judgement of the concept. If OF had nothing to do with AF, it'd barely touch my personal radar.


Really though, I wouldn't get all defensive if someone wrote "Canadians like hockey"
Not that long ago, in America, I read a textbook which listed Australia's national religion as beer. I laughed.
I don't drink.


Nice use of sarcasm there too., really adds to the maturity of your point. As does the double standards...
:lol: :lol: :lol: Speaking of sarcasm and double standards... :wink:

- Le Messor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

[Corvus]

Oh please. I didn't ask you to stereotype an entire nation's thoughts, or any of the other garbage you're talking about in your reply. I tried to use a local example that might illustrate my viewpoint to you.
You wanted me to imagine how A Scotsman would feel, implying that every single Scotsman feels the same as you expect every single Canadian to feel hatred for the fact that an American is wearing the mapleleafed suit.
We've already had Ben, who is a patriotic Canadian, stating that he's not disgusted with the character wearing the costume so that's already shown the diversity there is and that I shouldn't boycott the book because of it.


Thanks for the strawman though. Any other intellectual fallacies you'd like to toss my way while you're at it?
I don't believe I have, merely given you an opposing opinion to your own which you apparantly cannot handle....

I never once implied that you should attempt to speak for everything single Scot. Go re-read my post. I specifically said "a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel" Note the might, not will. Note the use of the nationalist adjective.

a Scot=/= Every Scot. I'm well aware that our kilt wearing friends are not a borg like gestalt entity. It seems most of your hand-waving dismissal of my opinion comes down to a failure of reading comprehension. It doesn't bother me that people disagree with me. Being disagreed with on the basis of things I never said is annoying though.

I'm not sure what the source of the comment about boycotting the book is. I've only ever said that the decision to put Pointer in the Guardian suit kills most of my interest in the series. Whether other people reconsider whether or not they'll support the series is up to them, and I've never argued that people shouldn't support the series just because of what I consider to be a significant flaw.

[Obsidian3d]

I would recommend picking up The Initiative to most of the folks who are thinking about grabbing Omega Flight. I'd also say that Choosing Sides would be a good purchase too. They're not necessary, but do a nice job of setting things up for the mini.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'm picking up Civil War: The Initiative, but I have no intention of grabbimg the Choosing Sides book...I can't stand the USAgent...He's one of the reasons I don't like this OF line-up (Michael Pointer is now another). There are a lot of strikes against this Omega Flight (IMO) and it seems they just keep adding more and more.

Dana :roll:

[Obsidian3d]

I've never actively disliked USAgent, but it's been a long time since I read anything about him other than Choosing Sides. I know he used to be a member of Force Works with War Machine, but my reading experience with him was back in the early 90s when he was introduced as a replacement when Steve Rogers became The Captain. I still remember the cool cover on Captain America #350 with the two of them duking it out.

I even made a USAgent custom figure for my upcoming Omega Flight team (I'm only two members short of it being complete)...but I wish I'd used the red/black/red/black color scheme on his shield that they put on the Silvestri piece...but what can ya do about that eh? :P

I'm looking forward to see what they do with Talisman. I'm getting more and more of a feeling that people will like this book, regardless of whether they were fans of old-skool AF or not. I can't say exactly WHY that is, but I'm hopeful that we might yet see an ongoing series here...

[Le Messor]

I've just read the issue.

A lot of the time, the world outside the USA likes to call Americans 'arrogant'. I think of it more as national solipsism than arrogance--the philosophy that nobody but you exists.

I think this issue has really played it up. Putting an Alaskan in a suit was part of it; but not all.
I felt it strongest when Carol Danvers and Tony Stark were having their conversation; how many times did she say "Every superhero in the world" was at his disposal? (Sorry, only the ones in the USA; but you're solipsistic, aren't you, Carol? Tony? There is no rest of the world.)
Then, when he calls up the images of potential Avengers, they include Black Panther, Storm, and Namor--all of them foreigners, all of them dignitaries-- and he has the presumption to assume he can just call them up and order them into the Avengers.

He's not only discounting the rest of the world, and the fact that it might not have registration, he's also taking for granted that the RULERS of foreign nations will come at his beck and call, like trained dogs. Or citizens of his own country.
(SHIELD being UN is irrelevant; he's using American laws for this.)

This is the problem, this is the solipsism, the arrogance, the presumption, that makes the idea of a USAian in the Canadian flag leave such a bad taste for us damn far'ners. Speaking only for those who are left with a bad taste, of course.

- Le Messor
"America's part of the world? I have been gone a long time!"
- Fry, Futurama

[Corvus]

On a lighter note:

http://www.nearmintheroes.org/images/letsgocanada.jpg

The guy at Near Mint Heroes has done a series of Photoshops of various war propaganda posters themed on Civil War. Fun stuff.

http://www.nearmintheroes.org/blog/?m=20070314

[Flightpath07]

solipsistic ?
Is that anything like "dip-stick", that thing we use to check the oil level in our automobile?

[Ottawa Renegade]

To me, Alpha Flight was never about BEING Canada or Canadian, it was about being in service TO Canada and Canadians.

I think that was always the point of the team.

Argh. I'd stayed away from this site deliberately to avoid spoilers, just in case. But I have an Omega Flight wallpaper at work and someone who read the Ottawa Citizen article asked me how I felt about having more Americans on the team than Canadians. When he rattled off the Americans, I thought he'd pointed to Talisman so I corrected him.

"Not her. Him." :?

I apologize, folks, in that you've already been up and down this conversation so I'm probably going over a beaten path, but add my name to those among the heavily-disappointed.

I didn't expect Mac, but I expected an American even less. And I'm in agreement with anyone making a comparison with having someone of any other Nationality than American in the Captain America suit.

It particularly surprises me in that it appears that there's an awful lot of research done about the "classic" Flight. How a negative reaction here to this little development could not be foreseen boggles my mind.

I'll buy the book, but I don't buy this reasoning. I believe you honestly mean it, Mr Oeming, because you've given us no reason to think otherwise. But if it didn't occur to you that having Canadian characters on a Canadian-based team was also a big part of the appeal to the Canadian market, then I don't know how to politely say what I want to say next.

[Ottawa Renegade]

I would LOVE to see the a new Cap as a non-American- what better way to see our culture than through the eyes of a non-American?

Pitch that and see how well it goes over. And if it does get the green light, I look forward to the reaction of long-time Cap fans. I'd wager anything that you're in a significant minority in your interest in seeing that.

[Ottawa Renegade]

None of my faves were ever in the lineup, ever: Box, Feedback, Windshear, Witchfire, Nemesis, Puck, Zuzha, Flex, Ghost Girl, even Wild Child and Goblyn. I think Talisman and Sasquatch are OK but neither makes me want to write an AF story about them. Yet I pulled hard for OF to be a winner and did my part to show we wanted a series.

I'm pretty well the same. I bought the book because I thought having a National hero was cool. I grew to like some of the others, but there was no one else i'd follow around from book to book.

I was still surprised when the news of Omega came out at how little Can-con there was, but once the concept was explained I sold it to myself. But this is going down about as easily as a mouthful of Buckley's.

[sengsterooney]

I must have come very late to this thread - never picked up Civil War: The Initiative, so I've only just learned about the deaths of the Alphans (bar Sas) in this thread. This revelation saddens me - particularly the deaths of Heather and Puck, both of whom I consider integral characters in any Alpha-related teams.

Still, things happen and torches are passed, and I am looking forward to Omega -- in fact, I went down to my local store today, pre-ordered OF and picked up a bunch of CW issues today.

[Le Messor]

solipsistic ?
Is that anything like "dip-stick", that thing we use to check the oil level in our automobile?


I think of it more as national solipsism...--the philosophy that nobody but you exists.

- Le Messor
"Did you hear about the atheistic solipsist? He doesn't believe in himself."

[Corvus]

It particularly surprises me in that it appears that there's an awful lot of research done about the "classic" Flight. How a negative reaction here to this little development could not be foreseen boggles my mind.


Well, I feel the same way, but I guess we're presuming that a negative reaction and controversy isn't exactly what Oeming is looking for.

[Ottawa Renegade]

It particularly surprises me in that it appears that there's an awful lot of research done about the "classic" Flight. How a negative reaction here to this little development could not be foreseen boggles my mind.


Well, I feel the same way, but I guess we're presuming that a negative reaction and controversy isn't exactly what Oeming is looking for.

Fair enough, so let me put it this way, in case you're right: Risking the interest of the die-hard fans for the sake of MAYBE gathering the casual fan is a big chance to take.

Obviously you have to weigh potential loss against potential gain. I would think one would try to please both sides as much as possible (keeping in mind you're not going to please everyone).

Having the team half Canadian and half American is a pretty good way to go about it. The loyal fans get to see some of their favourites in action again and maybe you draw new fans by giving seldom-used characters a spotlight. Makes sense.

Having an American in the Guardian suit is not a good way to go about it, in my opinion. There was little question that it would anger most of the die-hards, and I don't see it as a draw in the U.S.

Course, I could be wrong.

[Barnacle13]

Having an American in the Guardian suit is not a good way to go about it, in my opinion. There was little question that it would anger most of the die-hards, and I don't see it as a draw in the U.S.

Course, I could be wrong.

An American in the Guardian suit doesn't draw me in for sure. Especially when he's the American who destroyed Heather, Puck, Shaman, Mac (well I can actually live with him being dead), and killed off the V3 crew (never really got attached to Puckette and MML).

[Corvus]

Personally, I can even see putting Pointer on the team in some respect. But I just don't see the reason to put him in that suit.

To me it smacks of marketing logic on Marvel's part: Omega Flight is the successor to Alpha Flight, therefore we need someone in the Maple leaf suit.

Basically, using the image of Guardian as a way to try and grab Alpha Flight fans or Canadians.

[Ben]

Personally, I can even see putting Pointer on the team in some respect. But I just don't see the reason to put him in that suit.

To me it smacks of marketing logic on Marvel's part: Omega Flight is the successor to Alpha Flight, therefore we need someone in the Maple leaf suit.

Basically, using the image of Guardian as a way to try and grab Alpha Flight fans or Canadians.

absolutely it's marketing, so was killing off AF, and so was doing it off panel. It's all designed to make people talk, and frankly, it's been very successful. The market has changed, a book can't just be put on the shelves and expect to sell. There has to be intrigue . Some people have to get pissed off and make noise, and people have to talk. The internet has become one of the largest media marketing tools, but the most successful internet marketing is people talking. That's why there has been such an epidemic of spam on message boards and guestbooks. In retrospect, Marvel made some very clever moves to create "buzz marketing" for this product.

Ben

[varo]

i agree 100% with ben, and he is right. i'm sure all of us long-time alpha fans would like to see nothing more than mac/heather/puck/walter/shaman/snowbird in their own monthly title again, but the market is just not there right now.

this title has been given a better lead in and more buzz than the previous two combined, so the support is there, even if some form of reverse psychology is being implemented (piss off the fans and get them talking!).

just seeing the preview pages of of #1 has me believing that mike and scott are going to be treating the series roots with respect.

i think mike in the suit makes sense and i'm thrilled that sasquatch is on the team. him and beta ray bill will make quite the powerful duo.

looking at feb.' sales numbers i am wondering what type of numbers of would have to do to sustain a ongoing. i see heroes for hire, she hulk, xfactor and excalibur floating in the 25-35k range. while ant man is barely pulling 23k. lets just hope for 50k a month and there will be no doubt it will be made a ongoing. i am still curious about the pre-release numbers, i still think someone at marvel is pulling a editorial decision, rather than a sales decision.

plus came april, i will be hitting every message board known to man to create some buzz for this title.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I agree with Ben too....However, I still think it would have been far better to relaunch the original AF after their supposed death in New Avengers (Alpha Flight: Back with a Vengeance!). Strike while the iron was hot...People were talking about them and interest was at a high that it hasn't been in years.

The Collective Massacre-survivors...Heather, Puck, Sasquatch and maybe Shaman...With Snowbird, Talisman and the twins recreate the team from the ashes. All have more of an edge to them for almost being killed and losing loved ones. Bring in other characters from AF's past (like Wildchild, Diamond Lil, Madison Jeffries and some kick butt villains).

A missed opportunity that won't come again and Marvel blew it, like they've blown a lot of things. :x :(

I think 50K is being uber-optimistic, Varo...But good for you! :D I can see the first issue selling around 40K (like Vol 3)...Who knows after that?

Dana

[Mokole]

I think a kick to 50000 may start it off. She-Hulk, Ant-Man and Heroes for Hire have been averaging under 30000 for the total time of their runs, short as two may be.

She-Hulk has little to no growth potential as is, being a one-charcter series and not even a popular character at that (take away her nymphomania and...). The best way they add sales to that title is guest appearances to draw in fanboys/fangirls. The premise of the series is boring too. So all it can draw are She-Hulk fans and fans looking for the Slott story elements of day-to-day life, much like the Mary Jane series.

Ant-Man has more trouble, an even less popular hero doing even more run of the mill stuff, quite boring too. The character is limited in scope and has no 'tag' to draw in new readers (as in Flash is the fastest, Hulk the strongest). Very new recycled character too.

Heroes for Hire also goes big for titillation with no-name characters, restricted stories et al. It can grow but the premise of the book limits what can be told, so A-list stories are rare. I find it very boring.

Omega Flight and Excalibur, on the other hand, are established teams, developing team dynamics, not one-off character relationships, and can do various stories for various reasons. Being 'tied' to M-Day or Civil War only gives them a starting point, how the teams grow and develop is not set in stone, plus the characters themselves have mediocre to strong followings.

Really, if sales were the only factor She-Hulk and Heroes for Hire would have been cancelled already, but Marvel editors hope these books will find a larger market somehow. Both, however, will suffer from Initiative telling stories in the same style and system.

[Shaman Of The Whills]

While I'm quite pleased to hear that at least some form of the Flight is still alive and kicking, I wasn't too thrilled on the front that I've seen it so far... this mailman thing really just hasn't kicked up my appetite too much... I'll buy in to it all for the purpose of tossing my support towards the Flight in general, but I'm not entirely hopeful that this will turn out to be a great story. Especially since the confirmation of the deaths. I just think that this will end pretty poorly. The Inititiave in general isn't doing anything for me, and I think even my fandom for Flight is going to suffer as a consequence.

[Phil]

Well, there's gonna be a second print of the issue because the first one sold out...

[Canucklehead]

Well, there's gonna be a second print of the issue because the first one sold out...

Nice! OF gets a decent amount of (very well drawn) pages. The Thunderbolts story really did nothing for me (and I'm a huge Venom and Green Goblin fan). Plus the great OF action splash at the end to reinforce the series. Hopefully it'll be enough to get people curious enough to pick up #1.

[varo]

Well, there's gonna be a second print of the issue because the first one sold out...


wait. of what series?

i'm not following.

[Canucklehead]

Well, there's gonna be a second print of the issue because the first one sold out...


wait. of what series?

i'm not following.

I assumed CW: I 8)

[Phil]

Correct.

[varo]

gotcha.

thanks.

[Le Messor]

absolutely it's marketing, so was killing off AF, and so was doing it off panel. It's all designed to make people talk, and frankly, it's been very successful

Y'know, Ben, that is very true.

OTOH, if I find the book alienating and annoying, and hate it with every fibre of my being, I'm not gonna care if it's the most successful book in the universe. It's still not my book.

NB: This is hypothetical. As far as prejudging it goes: there have been decisions made that I know about that are alienating and annoying me, but overall I don't think the book will. I believe I will like it a bit, though I don't know that yet.


Omega Flight... are established teams,

No they're not.

- Le Messor
"Hello, my name is Walter Langowski. You killed my mentor. Prepare to take over for him."

[Mokole]

Omega Flight... are established teams,

No they're not.

- Le Messor

I meant the characters were well-known and not D-list, people know who they are. I never heard of almost anyone in Heroes for Hire, and after reading a bit of it I know why...

[Le Messor]

I meant the characters were well-known and not D-list,

Okay, that makes more sense.
Though there's a huge difference between established characters and an established team.

- Le Messor
"Do not make technical decisions based on the politics of the situation. Do not make political decisions based on technical issues. The only place these two meet is in the minds of the unenlightened."
- Geoffrey James

[SephirothsKiller]

absolutely it's marketing, so was killing off AF, and so was doing it off panel. It's all designed to make people talk, and frankly, it's been very successful

Y'know, Ben, that is very true.



I give the people in Marketing less credit than this. Bendis himself has said that he was surprised at the response. Maybe killing them off was marketing, but I believe that any claim of the off panel death being something more intelligent than a mistake is simply a cover up. A CONSPIRACY!!!