What if? Manikin was still in AF/OF

[Manikin]

I have been reading this forum for about a year now, generally enjoying the posts and the people. I typically hate forums and will only post something if it has been stewing in my head for a long while, or if I think what I have to say is either genuine or original. Anyways, this has been in my brain for a while and I wanted to hear what you all had to say.

What if Manikin where still a part of AF/OF? Manikin was always a childhood favorite of mine, one that, for some odd reason, still lingers as something of a mystery to me. The idea of being able to generate 3 other heroes to Leap/Slither/Teleport around at your call, was always something I enjoyed thinking about. A strange power, one that fails to make sense now-a-days compared to most other heroes/mutant's powers, but still one that beg analysis and questioning.

Proto: Again, this character is easy enough to grasp. I liked the idea of being able to dissolve most substances or to change shape at will. The ability to cover an enemy or hold them in place is fun too. Slipping under a door, or through a keyhole would make for an interesting addition to his abilities, but when you can just as easily dissolve the door away... With the change of Manikin's powers in one of his last appearances, he was unable to summon all three forms at a time. It was said that he would then be able to become each character at will. This made me think if the new version of Proto, one where Manikin would change into Proto alone, would take on a more humanoid shape as a default. This instead of just becoming a random blob, but still being able to shift and change his mass and shape.

Apeman: He seems to be the most basic of characters. I have always compared his strength and speed to that of Beast. Obviously stronger than your standard human and with significantly more body hair. Fairly tough as well as we have seen him take a beating at the hands of the original Omega Flight. Now that Manikin is only able to change into one of these three heroes at a time, I would like to think that Knapps intelligence would follow over to Apeman.

Highbrow: This character is the one who gives me the most pause. Was Highbrow an actual far-future version of Manikin? Or was his form and powers dependant on what Knapp though his future would be? Seeing what Marvels future is like in the year 2007+, is Highbrow really a valid character? It is never really stated what year Highbrow comes from, or why he is the way he is, and nothing that Highbrow ever says has really indicated. This makes me wonder what Highbrow would look like were he to be summoned now. I would like to think that he would still be similar in looks and powers to the old Highbrow, maybe less skinny looking and with a better groomed Mohawk ;) But it is easy enough to think that maybe his powers would be altogether different. Anyone’s guess is as good as mine on that one. With teleport powers that exceed Blink, and with Flight, Math, Enhanced Vision, and the ability to read other hero's powers just by looking at them, Highbrow was a cool character for his time and even now. Not to mention that the rest of his tech was completely undefined. Who knows what else Highbrow could have done?

Anyways...I would love to hear what any of you think. I may be one of the few who love this character quite so much as to think about what he would be like now, but I figured it was worth a post. Enjoy :)

[DelBubs]

Hiya Manikin and welcome to the forum. I actually enjoyed the uniqueness of Whits powers and his romance with Persuasion was a nice aside. I doubt someone as pure as he seemed to be could hack it nowadays as most heroes now seem to have to have a darker side. Whit never had that. Basically he was to nice to be a hero, if that makes sense.

[Canucklehead]

Welcome to the boards Manikin!

As you could probably tell from the ease in which you were able to pick "Manikin" as a screen name, there aren't too many around here begging for his return... unless it was in place of one of the AF members in New Avengers 16. 8)

I can't think of a character I hated so much for no reason as Whitman Knapp. Everything about the character annoyed me in some way or another. Everything from his name to his power just made me want to slap him lol. I was not a fan of any of Mantlo's creations and felt a bitterness torwards them from the start, simply because they replace "MY" Alpha Flight.

Having said that, I can see where you think he has potential, as do I. A character is only as cool and relevant as the writer. We've seen as recently as Civil War how the most obsolete, bottom of the barrel characters can actually become important and rejuvinated. Making someone like Manikin canon fodder is the easy way out (I've done it a few times in Fan Fics... it was fun) but to take this character and his powers and re-vamp them while using him in some real human, emotional scenes could take him very far and give him that 3rd dimention I never saw.

To have a character that could turn himself into a puddle of chemicals or a slug to navigate obsticles, while also being able to turn into a hulking brute is pretty cool. I would probably merge Whitman and Highbrow(hate that name too!) into his main human form. A high-tech guy who builds futuristic weapons and carries them on his arm and back, then can transform into the other two shapes when needed, always keeping his main conciousness, would be an awesome character to have on a team.

I have the same fondness for Flex, a v2 character. The potential is there to make anyone from the books interesting and fun to read. Just takes someone to do it! 8)

[Manikin]

I doubt someone as pure as he seemed to be could hack it nowadays as most heroes now seem to have to have a darker side. Whit never had that. Basically he was to nice to be a hero, if that makes sense.

Too true. Though I found it refreshing when so many of the characters, if not all, from Alpha Flight were constantly dealing with their own 'issues'. But your comment brought up an interesting story idea that I had forgotten to put in my original post. With the changes to Manikin's powers, would the other personalities eventualy overshadow Knapp altogether. It would not be hard to think that he would get completely lost eventually and rarely become his 'Prime Unit' form, chosing to be one of this past/future selves. This could even cause a break in his relationship with Persuasion...


there aren't too many around here begging for his return... unless it was in place of one of the AF members in New Avengers 16.
:(


I have the same fondness for Flex, a v2 character. The potential is there to make anyone from the books interesting and fun to read. Just takes someone to do it!
I have the same fondness for almost all of Beta Flight. Though Flex was one of my least favorite characters, I do see what you mean.

[SmurfInABlender]

I'm not going to lie, I HATED manikin... mantlo annoyed me very much.. now I loved having Whit as part of the team later on when he was the team's doctor in the issues surrounding #100 or what not.. and heck I even was interested when he used his powers for the first time since mantlo, after beign on the team a good 12 issues or so and then usign his powers was nice. But Manikin is, and in my opinion should be a behin the scenes type guy, a guy that helps out alpha but doesn't do field work, I liked him as a doctor and I wouldn't mind him comming back to OF as the team's doctor but as a member? honestly there is no faster way to kill the sales of the book than makign him a member

[Legerd]

When I first saw Manikin my feelings about the character were a bit iffy. Being able to summon different versions of himself from the timestream seemed like a rip off of Flashback (coolest death EVER till Vol. 3 screwed that up), but the selves being from the far past and future was cool. And each had his own unique abilities/powers.
If he were in AF, he'd probably be dead now at the hands of the Collective. If he were in OF...? I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens before we imagine what could.

[Canucklehead]

...

LOL I love your Guardian sig. Classic.

[Legerd]

...

LOL I love your Guardian sig. Classic.

:D

[Manikin]

I wouldn't mind him comming back to OF as the team's doctor but as a member? honestly there is no faster way to kill the sales of the book than makign him a member
I don't know. I think Oeming and Kolins could do a ton with a character as open for change as Manikin. His powers would be very cool if someone where just to put a modern spin on them. Not that I think it will ever happen, but it would be cool...at least for me.

As a side note, if you wanna kill sales just bring back Pathway and Goblin...I liked how they just ignored the fact that Highbrow could teleport so that Pathway could be on the team :P

[SmurfInABlender]

that shouldn't bother you as much as they ignoreed the fact that Laura Dean had Autism

[Manikin]

that shouldn't bother you as much as they ignoreed the fact that Laura Dean had Autism
I wasn't going to touch on that one...but...yea. :D

[Adam]

Welcome to the board... and while I mean you no offense I have to say I absolutely, unequivocally hate Manikin as a concept. I can suspend disbelief for even the weirdest comic book science and I can swallow the most nonsensical explanations for things in fiction... except Manikin.


Being able to summon different versions of himself from the timestream seemed like a rip off of Flashback (coolest death EVER till Vol. 3 screwed that up), but the selves being from the far past and future was cool. And each had his own unique abilities/powers.

Flashback's power at least sort of made sense to me. Manikin's? What exactly is a "future version" of his "self"? Is that to mean that at one point Whitman would actually become that future person? So if that's so, are we saying that Whitman was once that pile of goo as well? Or are we talking some sort of evolutionary/reincarnation sense of "self"? If so, we're saying that Whitman evolved from Proto? So did we all evolve from blobs with the powers of Proto or was it just Knapp?

It's just way too much comic pseudo-science for me. It's like Mantlo took it as a challenge to mush 5 or 6 ideas into one character.

[DelBubs]

I've always took it that Proto and Apeman where actually ancient ancestors that Knapp pulled from the past and Highbrow (?) was pulled from the future. Each with their own mutant power. Knapp was a mutant so at a bit of a stretch maybe some of his ancestors where. As to why Knapp could only draw those specific three from their time line, haven't a clue unless it is only mutants he can pull out of time.

Sounds perfectly logical to me :? :shock: :? :?

[SmurfInABlender]

the concept isn't what annoid me it was that the guy was a tool.. complete and utter tool, and the fights jsut didn't make since. its like mantlo didn't want any mroe team members but needed soem more so he made a three in one... and it jsut.. ugg. i have nothing more to say

[Manikin]

Flashback's power at least sort of made sense to me. Manikin's? What exactly is a "future version" of his "self"? Is that to mean that at one point Whitman would actually become that future person? So if that's so, are we saying that Whitman was once that pile of goo as well? Or are we talking some sort of evolutionary/reincarnation sense of "self"? If so, we're saying that Whitman evolved from Proto? So did we all evolve from blobs with the powers of Proto or was it just Knapp?

As I said in my original post, who the heck knows? I find it alot easier to believe that the incarnations of Knapps past/future selves were based on his own conceptions of those timelines. Meaning that maybe he DID believe in the evolution of man from a puddle of goo and that is why he manifested Proto. Maybe when he his mutant powers originally manifested he created these versions of himself perminantly based on his own theories of what we evolved from and what we will eventually become. If that were the case I would define Manikin's powers as: A mutant ability that allows Whitman Knapp to transform into 4 versions of what he believes to be the evolution of man. This is done at will and he is only able to manifest one at a time.

Though it is never stated that Proto/Apeman/Highbrow were in fact mutants, Delbubs idea is still pretty workable as well.

He may have been a bit of a tool, but I just think he was nerd with superpowers surrounded by a bunch of other kickass heroes. Besides, I didn't find anything wrong with the fights he was involved in, all he did was teleport things and send his smashy/dissolvey forms after people. I also don't think that his powers were THAT much of a stretch compared to things like Solid air and VindicatorII's unexplained magitech geothermal suit, this list could go on an on.

I still root for poor ole Knapp ;)


Welcome to the board... and while I mean you no offense I have to say I absolutely, unequivocally hate Manikin as a concept. I can suspend disbelief for even the weirdest comic book science and I can swallow the most nonsensical explanations for things in fiction... except Manikin.

I take no offence at all Adam. One persons favortie cult hero is the next persons idea of the worst that comics ever produced. I personally hate Strong Guy and Mysterio more than most, which I am sure many people would have something to say about. Ooooo Strong Guy...I wonder what HIS powers are? ;)

[evenflow]

I loved Manikin. I thought his powers were completely unique and interesting. One of the best characters in AF imo.

I was never a fan of the mainstream comic book characters and I tend to like the street level or the bizaare characters. I have a full run of Terror Inc. and Sleepwalker comics. Not many people can say that proudly.

[Flightpath07]

Welcome Manikin!

i always thought that Manikin (dislike that name, too "stiff" sounding, like a department store dummy) and Scramble were two fo the better things that Mantlo ever did in this (oops - i Mean Alpha Flight) series.

Mind you, i am not a believer in evolution, so i had to suspend my disbelief in order ot enjoy him, but hey! it's a comic book, right?!

I wouldn't mind seeing him return, both behind the scenes (could be some interesting scenes involving him being a medic for the alien BRBill) and eventually helping the team at times.

[Manikin]

Mind you, i am not a believer in evolution, so i had to suspend my disbelief in order ot enjoy him, but hey! it's a comic book, right?!
Nor am I, but I have to agree with Evenflow. I always enjoyed the odd superpowers more than the typical super strength or lasers shooting from body parts.

Thanks for all the warm welcomes, btw :)

[DMK]

I always liked Whit. Thought it was a shame when they modified his powers so that he changes into one of his dupes... but it does make it a little easier... time travel based super-powers are nothing but trouble.

Case in point: Flashback. His powers made Absolutely No Sense Whatsoever! OK, they established that all the Flashback dupes are from some point in his future... and in the "core" timeline at that.

Now, if the dupes aren't mindless... and Alpha Flight v1 #27 would strongly suggest they are not... why in the world wouldn't one of the dupes take one look around at the West Edmonton Mall, scream "Get your stupid carcass out of here you moron! You're going to get yourself killed!" and hustle out of there?

Then there's the timing question. A Flashback dupe is summoned from the future. We'll ignore the costume issue for the time being. How long does he stay away from his "present"?

If it's the same length of time as he stays in the past, it's a disaster. What if he was driving a car? What if he was crossing the street? When he vanished, sure he had a crosswalk light... but what about when he reappears?

And if he only vanishes for an instant... does that mean that he's speeding up his own aging by using his powers? He summons 20 dupes, keeps them in the past for a battle for 5 minutes... does that mean the "oldest" dupe is now 100 minutes older?

I hated Flashback's powers. Lobdell should have left him dead.[/b]

[Flightpath07]

I always liked Whit. Thought it was a shame when they modified his powers so that he changes into one of his dupes... but it does make it a little easier... time travel based super-powers are nothing but trouble.

Case in point: Flashback. His powers made Absolutely No Sense Whatsoever! OK, they established that all the Flashback dupes are from some point in his future... and in the "core" timeline at that.

Now, if the dupes aren't mindless... and Alpha Flight v1 #27 would strongly suggest they are not... why in the world wouldn't one of the dupes take one look around at the West Edmonton Mall, scream "Get your stupid carcass out of here you moron! You're going to get yourself killed!" and hustle out of there?

Then there's the timing question. A Flashback dupe is summoned from the future. We'll ignore the costume issue for the time being. How long does he stay away from his "present"?

If it's the same length of time as he stays in the past, it's a disaster. What if he was driving a car? What if he was crossing the street? When he vanished, sure he had a crosswalk light... but what about when he reappears?

And if he only vanishes for an instant... does that mean that he's speeding up his own aging by using his powers? He summons 20 dupes, keeps them in the past for a battle for 5 minutes... does that mean the "oldest" dupe is now 100 minutes older?

I hated Flashback's powers. Lobdell should have left him dead.[/b]

Those are great arguments about why Flashback is improbable. Very seriously well thought out.
But I still like him, and his powers. And, we come back to the fact that comics are fiction, really none of them make sense at all in a real-world light.
So, what do we do, we either enjoy them or we do not enjoy them, or we enjoy some parts of them and not others. To each his/her own!

[cmdrkoenig67]

I always thought it seemed more probable that Flashback's dupes were of a negative or opposite nature (hence the costume color reversal) than temporal. I agree with FP about this being fiction/comics and we're not supposed to put everything under the microscope...It's just entertainment.

Dana

[Le Messor]

Those are great arguments about why Flashback is improbable. Very seriously well thought out.

I've had some of those questions myself for some time. But to me, they don't really make him improbable, they just add to the intrigue of the character.

As far as I can tell, the future doubles are mute.

- Le Messor
"All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand."

[SmurfInABlender]

yeah.. those powers are improbable.. but flying, shooting lazers out of your eyes, turning into a furry beast, summoning the spirits...all THOSE are completely 100% probable.. everyone knows that

[Michael Connell]

Manikin was always a childhood favorite of mine.
A childhood favorite?!?........God, I'm old. :shock:

[jay042]

They've said Whit's powers were time travel related, but I've always thought they might actually be more of a projection of his conciousness. Apeman and Highbrow could easily be associated with his ego/id.

[DMK]

Those are great arguments about why Flashback is improbable. Very seriously well thought out.

I've had some of those questions myself for some time. But to me, they don't really make him improbable, they just add to the intrigue of the character.

As far as I can tell, the future doubles are mute.In AF v1 #12, they don't speak. I think the captions even mention how eerie the silence is. But in #27 they do. Mind you, each of the three dupes who speak speak one sentence of an ongoing conversation, so maybe they just share the "present" Flashback's mind.

I know there's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief for all super-powers. I accepted that long ago. But I like having some internal consistency... and Flashback's powers lack that.

Getting back on-topic: Whit's relationship with Kara is one of the few things I like from Mantlo's run when I look back on it, even if it was extremely inappropriate.

[evenflow]

Do you think Byrne would do a Manikin custom?

How much you think it would cost me? :D

[kozzi24]

This theory's now toast due to developments in AFv3 and the Great Lakes minis, but I had a working plan that Flashback had become Mr. Immortal after his death in #27. He hadn't been absent because he was dead, but because he's assumed a new identity with the knowledge his "death" had revealed. The characters were linked by creator and not too far off geographically, so it always worked at the time.