It's time for a new Flight

[Flightpath07]

Well, it has been painful trying to get on this site lately due to bad server service (?) or whatever, so I REALLY hope this works (and that y'all get to view it at some point).

I am going to try to be positive about a new Alpha Flight series. I am positive it can be done. I am so sure that it CAN be done (and that the reason we do not have one is not the CAN part at all), that I have come up with an idea for how to launch one effectively.

My idea is somewhat long-winded, and too lengthy to try to re-post here, so you can check out my grand hypothesis at http://canadas-own-the-flight.blogspot.com/2009/10/it-is-time-to-launch-new-flight-book.html .

Thanks all! See you in the comic pages!

[cmdrkoenig67]

Hmmmmmmmm....

Nope...I don't like it (I kid). :wink:

I hate you (I kid about the hating too) for leaving Heather dead, Mac I don't care about (he has died and resurrected too many flipping times for me to care anymore)...But Heather should be a survivor (maybe she wakes from a several months-long coma?). I think it would be interesting to see Heather lead the team from home with her baby (keeping in contact with the team via comm-link, satellite, A new Alphanex computer?)...That's a hook, right?

I also think the team needs a Guardian...A Canadian (perhaps as some have suggested, a former soldier?), Just not Pointer...He has done nothing to honor the uniform (He's a whining, self-serving leech...Pure and simple...Gawd, what a horrible character!)

I'm feel Puck is just a continuity nightmare for writers now...I love the character as Byrne wrote him...I'd just want there to be some way to retcon the whole demon thing out of his history, if he was to be used.

I like your inclusion of Aurora (Northstar may not be available...he's too busy being squandered in the X-Books)...I also like the idea of Aurora and Walter getting back together, not fond of the marriage idea, though. However...Aurora is messed-up mentally again (thanks to Norman Osborne)...I'd want work with/use it....It could be very interesting.

I don't think the Execs at Marvel will allow Arachne to become Canadian...I really don't...There will inevitably be a writer who will want to use her (probably back in the States, once the whole 50 State Initiative thing goes away...And it will too)...Besides, I'd much rather see Single mom, Heather than Julia...Sorry.

BTW...The Shroud isn't connected to the criminal underground anymore (unless they've retconned that back)...He gave it up after the criminal members of the Night Shift discovered he wasn't really one of them and that he was using them...They spread the word). I am a big fan of the Shroud, but I don't want to see him in an Alpha Flight relaunch...he doesn't fit. The Shroud always seemed to fit best into a weird sort of setting...Like a supernatural-hunting, night-patrolling team.

I'd like to see Snowbird and Talisman be members of the team, but I'm okay with them being reserve members (only when needed or if they should run into something they couldn't handle alone and had to call in the rest of the team). I'd like to see Shaman as a spirit guiding his daughter.

Other things I'd like to see...Walter's son (and maybe his ex-wife again)...He could search out his father with a real mad on for him...Maybe he's even "gifted", due to Walter's years of working with radiation (I'm including his years experimenting in College...We have no idea what the man did there, besides get to know Bruce Banner)?

I'd also like to see characters who are already in Canada used...WWII hero Jack Frost, The Living Totem, The character introduced in the original Marvel Comics Presents series, Lynx (Wolverine set her loose to live in the wilds of Canada), Albert and Elsie Dee (both in Canada when we last saw them)...

I'd also like to see Madison Jeffries and Diamond Lil return to Canada...Not necessarily members of the Flight, though (maybe reserve members?). It would just be nice to see more superhuman Canadians from time-to-time (living their lives, fighting when they have to).

I'd like to see Nemesis or a Nemesis character still avenging the innocent...Also not necessarily a member of the team...Maybe in an adversarial role?

I'd really only want to see characters like Persuasion (I do like her Purple Girl name better too), Manikin (too much of a Deus Ex Machina as a powered character IMHO), Feedback and Volume 2 characters (who've all lost their powers now) as guest-stars.

I too would like to see Colin Ashworth Hume return to Canada (he's actually Canadian, FP...he just grew up in England...Kind of the opposite of John Byrne)...I'd like to see him re-powered, though...I always thought he was a great character. Please tell me you're kidding with "Black Fly" as a name. :?

Weapon P.R.I.M.E. is lame, but I'd like to see them in an issue or two as adversaries to Alpha (being jerks or getting in the way, etc...)...I'd even like to see them get the butts handed to them...LOL.

I may be in the minority here, but I'd love to see Delphine Courtney/Robot MX39147 come back to form a new Omega Flight (maybe from more left out, disgruntled or depowered former Alphans and some of their villains?).

Yukon Jack might be an option.

Sorry FP, but I cringed at Walter's orange costume. :P

You have some good ideas there, though.

Dana

[Le Messor]

Just not Pointer...He has done nothing to honor the uniform (He's a whining, self-serving leech...)

Actually, in the pages of Dark X-Men, (or Uncanny), he was more of a power-thirsty villain. Complete, unexplained 180 from his mini-series.


Walter's years of working with radiation (I'm including his years experimenting in College...We have no idea what the man did there, besides get to know Bruce Banner)?

Hmm... technically not, but I've always presumed he got his degree in bioradiation there.

fp, you describe Omega Flight as eagerly anticipated... Is that something that needs updating, perhaps?

- Le Messor
"Okay, technically, I'm a serial killer."
- Sylar

[cmdrkoenig67]

Just not Pointer...He has done nothing to honor the uniform (He's a whining, self-serving leech...)

Actually, in the pages of Dark X-Men, (or Uncanny), he was more of a power-thirsty villain. Complete, unexplained 180 from his mini-series.

Mik, isn't that what I said? Whiney self-serving leech? Hello...I think he's a creep.




Walter's years of working with radiation (I'm including his years experimenting in College...We have no idea what the man did there, besides get to know Bruce Banner)?

Hmm... technically not, but I've always presumed he got his degree in bioradiation there.

fp, you describe Omega Flight as eagerly anticipated... Is that something that needs updating, perhaps?

Surely Walter did some experimenting in college, Reed Richards and Doctor Doom certainly did. I'm also sure he must have done some research and experimenting after colleg (probably before his marriage).


[
- Le Messor
"Okay, technically, I'm a serial killer."
- Sylar

[Flightpath07]

Well, thanks for the replies. It was my first real hand at trying to find the time to put "pen to paper" and give voice to my thoughts about what the new AF comic could possibly look like (if I ruled the world :twisted: ).

Also, nice to know alphaflight.net is back up and running! Yay! I was going through some serious withdrawals there... :oops: :? :shock: :oops:

[Trewqp]

Well, if I truly must add my two cents.

Deadpool is in Canada. He then should, at a random gas station (Preferably 7-11 since Marvel is getting sponserd by them and they have better Nachos than most other gas stations) meet Sasquatch, who has the apperance of a hobo. Now Deadpool comes up and is about to get in his car, and then this hobo asks for a dollar. Deadpool says "HA! BEAT ME IN A FIGHT AND I WILL!" The Hobo gets up and starts choking Deadpool, in which Deadpool gives up. Deadpool then runs away not wanting to give him a dollar. Sasquatch chases him until BAM! They fall off a cliff and onto some type of abandoned warehouse. They go inside, and see something an Alphanex (Which Deadpool then insults for it sounding so dumb and corny). Then Sasquatch press's the button and all of a sudden, THE CIVIL WAR ERUPTS (The one that happened in Marvel Comics i think in 2007?) And Sasquatch realizes he has to find Alpha Flight (Which Deadpool makes refernces to Alphaflight.net and how crazy and werid the posters there are and how nobody likes Canada and how Alphaflight hasnt been around for awhile, and then some more insults and jokes aimed at Alphaflight and the fanbase)

Now, the 2nd phase begins with them finding Puck, who now works at a gas station (Again, 7-11 to satisfy the sponsor). Sasqautch walks in and says "PUCK COME ON BRO WE HAVE GOTTA HELP OMFG OMG ROFL"

Then, they find Mac working at Bank, IN AMERICA! (Haha, Deadpool then says *Insert insult, jokes and more insults aimed at Alphaflights fanbase and the comic) Mac quickly comes since he knows of the Civil War and whats happening and what COULD happen in Canada.

Now, time has passed and the Civil War is over. Deadpool, Sasquatch, Mac and Puck are looking for Heather. But they are occupied with the Skrulls in Canada (Thus starting the Skrull Invasion event) Canada is burnt to the Ground and its people killed or sent to Alaska where they are treated as second class citizens. (Deadpool says *Insurt joke and insult and refernce to Alphaflight fanbase)

Finally, they Find Heather. Now, Im not going to say what has happened to her and where she works because the comic book has to remain readable for kids of all ages.

Well thats just a rough draft of what i Believe you could add or merge into your story.

((( Very good btw, I like the Ideas although I believe Marvel would have a totally different take on introducing Alpha Flight back into a series )))

[Flightpath07]

:shock:

Trweqp.

Sad to say, but I missed you, buddy.

O...M...G... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[cmdrkoenig67]

Do we have a face-palm emoticon?
#-o (the closest I could find)

Dana :P

[Trewqp]

:shock:

Trweqp.

Sad to say, but I missed you, buddy.

O...M...G... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Aww man you miss pelt my name. Can there be any higher form of insult?

Sad to say? Really?


And Cmdrkoenig67, face palm, really? That hurt, it hurt me real deep.

This cut me really deep you know guys.

:cry:

[Flightpath07]

This cut me really deep you know guys.

Uh huh. I bet. :wink:

Oh, and sorry about the "miss pelting"... :roll:

[Trewqp]

Have you thought about putting this suggestion into the Marvel Forums or other big Comic forums?

[Flightpath07]

Have you thought about putting this suggestion into the Marvel Forums or other big Comic forums?

Um...no, not at this point. :idea: Maybe after Alzheimers sets in?

[Le Messor]

Actually, in the pages of Dark X-Men, (or Uncanny), he was more of a power-thirsty villain. Complete, unexplained 180 from his mini-series.
Mik, isn't that what I said? Whiney self-serving leech? Hello...I think he's a creep.

Sorry, I was using those terms differently... I thought of a "Whiney self-serving leech" as more emo than villainous...

- LM
"That bird is way too black to be a pelican. It must be a swan."
- me

[HappyCanuck]

"Whiney self-serving leech"


So... pointer went into politics??

[PWalk]

Just read through your write up and its clear you've spent a lot of time cultivating the idea. Just my .02 here.

I agree we do not need a Guardian. Yes probably the most marketable hero on past teams is no longer around. Heather and Mac are dead, RIP. Can the suit be put on someone else? Sure but if I was writing a new series I wouldn't think about it for a long time.

Puck is dead, again RIP. I love Judd but there is so much water under the bridge with him that it would be tough for a writer to put together a reason why he somehow is back breathing. I've tried to come up with something myself and just decided it's not worth it.

Walter is a given. Not just because he's my favorite character of all time but because he's as much an icon for this team as the Guardian suit.

Arachne, Shroud, Purple Girl, etc... I like the ideas but the integration needs to be seemless. Keeping magic out of this book is near impossible and I think the Shroud could go a long way to changing it up.

Aurora and Shroud on the same team? I like it if for nothing more than the light vs dark contrast.

[Flightpath07]

the light vs dark contrast

Now there is something I had not thought of...

Thanks for the kind words! Unfortunately, it is just my thoughts, I have no plans to pitch my idea or write the new series. However, if I can come up with some semi-plausible ideas, that just goes to show that anybody can. Heck, even Volumes 2 and 3 had some good ideas in them, just not enough or not the right ones. Surely somebody out there who desperately wants to write this series believes in it enough to put something together that will work and work well, and then will pound on the doors of Marvel executives each and every month/week/day until they give in!

[cmdrkoenig67]

Nothing to see here, move along...

Dana

[Flightpath07]

Seriously folks...If you really want Alpha back, then make yourselves heard...Actually doing something is better than just griping...

http://marvel.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=98826&start=240

http://newsarama.com/common/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9258&p=251853&hilit=alpha+flight#p251853


...Or write to JoeQ and/or Marvel (the email I have for JoeQ is below, I don't know how current it is)...

JOEYDAQ@aol.com

make a noise people...

Dana


This comes back to a "respect" issue for me.

Firstly, because in spite of what Marvel has told us, there CANNOT be enough fan support to make Marvel put out a series, until MARVEL starts to hype the characters. If they want a wave of support that is bigger than our little community/family, then they have to CREATE it. They know this. They are in the media business, they know how to do this, they know how the game works. You can sell anything to anybody, as long as you make them think you want and need it; if you haven't worked at that, don't even bother trying to sell it - that is a law of marketing (or ought to be). Marvel isn't showing AF any respect right now; until they do, we will not get a series. This comes back to the ball really being in Marvel's court, and they just do not want to hit it.

Secondly, respect is about telling the truth. Marvel has been lying to us for quite some time now, and is trying to shut us up now by killing off any and all AF characters that they can. That isn't respect, that is dishonesty.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Forget I even asked...

Dana

[zephyr74]

All,

I just bought and read the ALPHA FLIGHT CLASSIC compilation this weekend. I was in the mood and it spared me rummaging through old comic boxes.

It was the first time I'd stepped into a comic shop in years. When I went to the counter to buy the book, I said, "Too bad they can't find a solid creative team to make Alpha Flight work." The clerk replied, "Nobody cares about a Canadian super-team." The comment struck me as odd because I'd read the same sentiment on one of these forums.

What I can't wrap my head around is that we'll buy into Star Trek, Star Wars, Judge Dredd, Elf Quest, etc. but, as Americans, we can't buy into a Canadian super-team? If the material is good, it's good. Reading those first eight issues of AF again reminded me what a good set of characters Byrne created. It was a team, a family, and a good mix of personalities and diverse backgrounds.

I don't think we need a new Alpha Flight at all. I think a new ongoing series with a dedicated creative team would be fantastic. AF had such a great foundation and the problem has been that no creative team since Byrne has been able to harness the potential in these characters.

I haven't collected in so long but from the comments I read in these forums, comic books seem to be suffering from the same ailment as Hollywood. The big corporation hires people who'll work on the series for the pay-check while having no true passion for the character(s), concepts, or existing mythology of the original material.

-Zef

[cmdrkoenig67]

All,

I just bought and read the ALPHA FLIGHT CLASSIC compilation this weekend. I was in the mood and it spared me rummaging through old comic boxes.

It was the first time I'd stepped into a comic shop in years. When I went to the counter to buy the book, I said, "Too bad they can't find a solid creative team to make Alpha Flight work." The clerk replied, "Nobody cares about a Canadian super-team." The comment struck me as odd because I'd read the same sentiment on one of these forums.

What I can't wrap my head around is that we'll buy into Star Trek, Star Wars, Judge Dredd, Elf Quest, etc. but, as Americans, we can't buy into a Canadian super-team? If the material is good, it's good. Reading those first eight issues of AF again reminded me what a good set of characters Byrne created. It was a team, a family, and a good mix of personalities and diverse backgrounds.

I too find it sad that a comic store clerk/owner would say that..."Nobody cares about a Canadian super-team"? How can he make such an unfair, small-minded judgment like that? Does he know what every comic fan wants or likes that comes into his store? I doubt it.

As you said...Many people like a variety of comics with characters from all over the place (the far future, outer space, elfworld, etc...)...Why not Canada too? Also, I agree with your comment, "If the material is good, it's good"...Get a good creative team on it with great story ideas and you'll have a winner.



I don't think we need a new Alpha Flight at all. I think a new ongoing series with a dedicated creative team would be fantastic. AF had such a great foundation and the problem has been that no creative team since Byrne has been able to harness the potential in these characters.

I also think the original team should be given a chance, but I just don't see Marvel has having the brains or the guts to do that. We will see another Alpha Flight book, but it will probably be a mix of new and old characters, along with a few "kewl" characters thrown in to generate sales...I don't think it will be Byrne's original team reborn, though.



I haven't collected in so long but from the comments I read in these forums, comic books seem to be suffering from the same ailment as Hollywood. The big corporation hires people who'll work on the series for the pay-check while having no true passion for the character(s), concepts, or existing mythology of the original material.

-Zef

Uh...Zef, you just described the majority of the writers and artists who've worked on comic characters for decades now. It is a job and many of them felt that way about, but most of them just did their best for the money (even if it was very little money at times). John Byrne didn't really want to do an Alpha Flight series, but he took it on (because he didn't want CC to do it)...He worked very hard and did some of his best work, filling in who these cyphers were. He thought of it as a job, a paycheck and I think he did marvelously. I'm not in any way, saying he didn't care about the characters at all...He was just from the old-school of thinking...Treat the characters with some respect and leave them somewhat intact for the next creator.

Dana

[rplass]

Ah, but there are FACTS we have to counter such ignorance. Alpha Flight #1 sold over 500,000 copies. It was a huge seller. So the guy is just wrong to say no one will buy a Canadian hero book. Alpha Flight was selling great, and was a consistent top 10 book. even later into Byrne's run. I put up some top ten sales lists

Here (http://alphaflightcollector.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/bye-geocities-well-miss-you-every-funday/)

and

here (http://alphaflightcollector.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/happy-canada-day-or-is-it-funday/)

so please use these FACTS against people who talk about sales and top books. I could dig up some more top 10 lists... give me some time to rummage through the old Marvel Age mags I have.

Love,
rplass

[HappyCanuck]

Ah, but there are FACTS we have to counter such ignorance. Alpha Flight #1 sold over 500,000 copies...
(Editorial snippage)

so please use these FACTS against people who talk about sales and top books.

Love,
rplass

FACTS are great, rplass, and I applaud your attempt, but these figure are from 25 years ago. If you start spouting that people back in 1985 LOVED the book enough to keep it in the top 10, they're gonna look at you like you just sprouted turnips from your nose, because at that time people wore their hair way up in the stratosphere. It doesn't show the figures for TODAY. We need contemporary figures, not ancient history, to show that people DO care about a Canadian team.

[rplass]

We don't have contemporary figures but we do have compelling historical facts. A blanket statement about the appeal of Canadian team books is sily anyway. What changed in 25 years to make this true now but demonstrably false then? Here are some more possible responses to the statement that peoeple won't buy Canadian team books:

1. Wolverine is Canadian, so is Deadpool

2. You're a stoopyface and I don't speak your stoopyface language, stoopyface.

3. What? Can't understand! Stoopyface! Stoopyface!

and so on. Look; Alpha Flight is awesome and it rocks hard dude, a good writer/artist can do great things with the team and it should have its own ongoing title. It was true 25 years ago and is just as true today.

Love,
rplass

[Legerd]

Ah, but there are FACTS we have to counter such ignorance. Alpha Flight #1 sold over 500,000 copies...
(Editorial snippage)

so please use these FACTS against people who talk about sales and top books.

Love,
rplass

FACTS are great, rplass, and I applaud your attempt, but these figure are from 25 years ago. If you start spouting that people back in 1985 LOVED the book enough to keep it in the top 10, they're gonna look at you like you just sprouted turnips from your nose, because at that time people wore their hair way up in the stratosphere. It doesn't show the figures for TODAY. We need contemporary figures, not ancient history, to show that people DO care about a Canadian team.

The problem is the book we want hasn't been seen since those times. The last time our Alpha Flight (I'm referring to the original series not so much the original team) had significant numbers was fifteen years ago and anything we've seen since downplayed the team or used almost entirely different characters. So we can only show how popular the characters (the ones we want used) were back then.

Perhaps a better approach would be to talk about the potential the characters have. Most of AF had little to no character development, usually being put back to square one when a new writer took over the book or they appeared as guest stars in another title. However, it seems like the time of comics being character driven is over.

So then what the team needs is a good hook to bring readers in. Maybe something like the originals come back to life, but who did it and for what dark reasons. From there, the mystery deepens as each character finds they have been subtly altered, but don't know how or why. This leads to crossovers with characters like Dr. Strange, Dr. Voodoo, Wolverine, etc. as Alpha Flight tries to unravel what has happened to them. All the while the team has to contend with various villains who are working for the big bad who is behind everything. It all culminates with an Earth threatening situation in which the Alphans who have come back must decide if they should sacrifice themselves to prevent the plan from coming to fruition.

Or something along those lines.

One thing I do know, if AF is to stand a chance, Marvel has to make sure these things happen:

1. The writing has to be great.
2. The art has to be great.
3. The book has to be promoted far better than it was before.
4. The characters have to be treated better than they have been.
5. There must be more interaction with the rest of the Marvel U.

stoopyface

[Flightpath07]

1. The writing has to be great.
2. The art has to be great.
3. The book has to be promoted far better than it was before.
4. The characters have to be treated better than they have been.
5. There must be more interaction with the rest of the Marvel U.

stoopyface

Agree.

[Ahab]

What changed in 25 years to make this true now but demonstrably false then? ***EDIT***Alpha Flight is awesome and it rocks hard dude, a good writer/artist can do great things with the team and it should have its own ongoing title. It was true 25 years ago and is just as true today.

Hmmm...can't say that I agree. Consider what the lucky writer gets to contend with:
"I'm going to use Talisman in the book." Talisman? You mean Shaman? "No, Talisman - Shaman is dead. Talisman is his daughter that has Shaman's pouch - and is essentially the tribe's new Shaman." Oh.
"I think Aurora would be fun too". Well, apparently Aurora isn't the most 'fun'. "Yes, Jeanne-Marie would be fun to play around with too." I wasn't talking about her either. "Oh."
"And of course what is the team without Puck?" Definitely - we need someone with agility, plus Puck was kind of hot. "No - not that Puck! The original!" The old man? "Well, not anymore..." But what I mean is the super-densed- skin one right? "Well, not anymore..." Oh.
"And I figure how can you have a team without Guardian?" But he's dead. "No, Byrne brought him back remember?" But no, he's dead... "Yeah, yeah, he died fighting Galactus too but they brought him back" No. I'm telling you - he's dead! "Oh please, don't get me started on that nonsense that Chuck Austen wrote in Uncanny. Guardian survived that!" Um, but no, he's dead again. "Oh."

And so on and so on. These characters were a breath of fresh air in the 80's, but they are so damaged now that I don't hold out much hope for them, much as I love them.

[Legerd]

What changed in 25 years to make this true now but demonstrably false then? ***EDIT***Alpha Flight is awesome and it rocks hard dude, a good writer/artist can do great things with the team and it should have its own ongoing title. It was true 25 years ago and is just as true today.

Hmmm...can't say that I agree. Consider what the lucky writer gets to contend with:
"I'm going to use Talisman in the book." Talisman? You mean Shaman? "No, Talisman - Shaman is dead. Talisman is his daughter that has Shaman's pouch - and is essentially the tribe's new Shaman." Oh.
"I think Aurora would be fun too". Well, apparently Aurora isn't the most 'fun'. "Yes, Jeanne-Marie would be fun to play around with too." I wasn't talking about her either. "Oh."
"And of course what is the team without Puck?" Definitely - we need someone with agility, plus Puck was kind of hot. "No - not that Puck! The original!" The old man? "Well, not anymore..." But what I mean is the super-densed- skin one right? "Well, not anymore..." Oh.
"And I figure how can you have a team without Guardian?" But he's dead. "No, Byrne brought him back remember?" But no, he's dead... "Yeah, yeah, he died fighting Galactus too but they brought him back" No. I'm telling you - he's dead! "Oh please, don't get me started on that nonsense that Chuck Austen wrote in Uncanny. Guardian survived that!" Um, but no, he's dead again. "Oh."

And so on and so on. These characters were a breath of fresh air in the 80's, but they are so damaged now that I don't hold out much hope for them, much as I love them.

That can be pretty much said about any character out there. Look at the FF, Avengers, X-men, etc. How many more bad stories have been told with those teams that just gets ignored or retconned later on?

I think this is the perfect opportunity to bring the original AF back. Not only can this be a fresh point for people to jump on the book, but the characters are, for the most part, unknown to many new readers. Aurora was "cured" of her MPD last I checked; the only time Shaman was the Talisman was, what, about nineteen years ago, who will remember that besides those of us who were there for it?

Most of the bad ideas can be swept quietly under the rug, ideas like: the evil government conspiracy that went on and on and on; Puck being infested with Raazar; Sasquatch being an accidental transsexual; Snowbird's baby being possessed and her mortal family (and her) subsequently being killed, etc. Why not use this chance to cherry pick the best stories and build onto them? Not to mention it would be cool to see how each of the resurrected Alphans deals with having died and returned.

Reintroduce the characters, streamline their past, clean up loose plot threads and make them bigger players in the Marvel U. IMO that will give AF a fighting chance as an ongoing.

[Flightpath07]

Reintroduce the characters, streamline their past, clean up loose plot threads and make them bigger players in the Marvel U. IMO that will give AF a fighting chance as an ongoing.

My heart would dearly love to agree with you... :cry:

I think Marvel has worked too hard to purge AF as we knew it from the Marvel Universe, to invite it back in.

It'll have to be new. It'll have to be fresh. It'll have to be much more like what is out there and already is selling well, than what we remember and long for.

As different as Omega Flight was from the original John Byrne run on Alpha Flight, the new Alpha Flight series will have to be just as different if not more so. If not, it will not get published.

[HappyCanuck]

My heart would dearly love to agree with you... :cry:

I think Marvel has worked too hard to purge AF as we knew it from the Marvel Universe, to invite it back in.


Well, there ya go, FP!! You just solved our dilemma! See, they worked so hard purging AF as we know it from the MU, to introduce them as they were originally intended WOULD be 'new', 'fresh' and whatnot! Congrats, m'boy, you just saved the Flight! (Mind now we just have to get Joe Quesada EXTREMELY drunk so he'd see this and agree....)

[Flightpath07]

My heart would dearly love to agree with you... :cry:

I think Marvel has worked too hard to purge AF as we knew it from the Marvel Universe, to invite it back in.


Well, there ya go, FP!! You just solved our dilemma! See, they worked so hard purging AF as we know it from the MU, to introduce them as they were originally intended WOULD be 'new', 'fresh' and whatnot! Congrats, m'boy, you just saved the Flight! (Mind now we just have to get Joe Quesada EXTREMELY drunk so he'd see this and agree....)

Actually, at this point I would settle very strongly for an Ultimate AF series in the Ultimate universe. If this went well, it would help drive interest in AF, perhaps paving the way for a regular AF series down the road.

[Wildcard]

Can anyone explain to me how this would happen?

Can anyone just pitch an idea to Joe Q/Marvel for a new AF book? Assuming they like it and go for it - what happens next?

What is the process involved to get a cancelled series a new ongoing series?

[cmdrkoenig67]

My heart would dearly love to agree with you... :cry:

I think Marvel has worked too hard to purge AF as we knew it from the Marvel Universe, to invite it back in.


Well, there ya go, FP!! You just solved our dilemma! See, they worked so hard purging AF as we know it from the MU, to introduce them as they were originally intended WOULD be 'new', 'fresh' and whatnot! Congrats, m'boy, you just saved the Flight! (Mind now we just have to get Joe Quesada EXTREMELY drunk so he'd see this and agree....)

Actually, at this point I would settle very strongly for an Ultimate AF series in the Ultimate universe. If this went well, it would help drive interest in AF, perhaps paving the way for a regular AF series down the road.

No...OMIGOD NO! We've already seen "Ultimate" Alpha Flight and they were more lame than any of the versions of Alpha Flight ever were. A team composed mostly of American mutants hopped up on a synthetic drug? NO I SAY! FP, I love ya like a brother, but you should be tarred and feathered for suggesting such a thing! :wink:

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Can anyone explain to me how this would happen?

Can anyone just pitch an idea to Joe Q/Marvel for a new AF book? Assuming they like it and go for it - what happens next?

What is the process involved to get a cancelled series a new ongoing series?

You have to be a comic book writer to pitch proposals to the editors. They won't use ideas form readers (at least they won't admit to it, if they do).

Dana

[Flightpath07]

My heart would dearly love to agree with you... :cry:

I think Marvel has worked too hard to purge AF as we knew it from the Marvel Universe, to invite it back in.


Well, there ya go, FP!! You just solved our dilemma! See, they worked so hard purging AF as we know it from the MU, to introduce them as they were originally intended WOULD be 'new', 'fresh' and whatnot! Congrats, m'boy, you just saved the Flight! (Mind now we just have to get Joe Quesada EXTREMELY drunk so he'd see this and agree....)

Actually, at this point I would settle very strongly for an Ultimate AF series in the Ultimate universe. If this went well, it would help drive interest in AF, perhaps paving the way for a regular AF series down the road.

No...OMIGOD NO! We've already seen "Ultimate" Alpha Flight and they were more lame than any of the versions of Alpha Flight ever were. A team composed mostly of American mutants hopped up on a synthetic drug? NO I SAY! FP, I love ya like a brother, but you should be tarred and feathered for suggesting such a thing! :wink:

Dana

Dana,

Got to say, I disagree with you on this one. Just recently read Alpha Flight's appearance in the Ultimate Universe; and I loved it. With some tweaking, it'd be a good read, IMHO. No, it is not AF as we know it. But it has the AF name, it has some of the characters (changed, as they all are in Ultimates-land), and it is popular. For what it was, i liked it. Would I be satisfied with JUST that, with an Ultimate AF and NO regular-universe AF? Heck no! But, if Marvel ain't willing to do regular AF right now, this would be a start, a character and name push in the right direction, at least.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Unfortunately, I have the feeling Marvel meant "Ultimate" Alpha Flight to stain the name of Alpha Flight even more than it had been. Most Marvel "talent" has done Alpha Flight wrong over the past few years, except for a few good guys like Fred Van Lent, Oeming, etc...Who've attempted to show respect for the characters...But those guys are in the minority, regretfully.

I also think those that want to do an Alpha Flight series (and who may have put proposals in) are being shot down by Marvel Editorial (even whether those proposals are good or not), because the big wigs just don't believe in the viability of the Flight anymore. Omega Flight should have shown them the error of their ways, but apparently they're ignoring it's success.

Dana

[Flightpath07]

Unfortunately, I have the feeling Marvel meant "Ultimate" Alpha Flight to stain the name of Alpha Flight even more than it had been. Most Marvel "talent" has done Alpha Flight wrong over the past few years, except for a few good guys like Fred Van Lent, Oeming, etc...Who've attempted to show respect for the characters...But those guys are in the minority, regretfully.

I also think those that want to do an Alpha Flight series (and who may have put proposals in) are being shot down by Marvel Editorial (even whether those proposals are good or not), because the big wigs just don't believe in the viability of the Flight anymore. Omega Flight should have shown them the error of their ways, but apparently they're ignoring it's success.

Dana

Completely agree.
So, back to square one...

[cmdrkoenig67]

Okay...I know many of us would like to see the original line-up for Alpha Flight in a relaunch (or something very close to that)...But Omega Flight sold very, very well...

Perhaps a more Avenger-ish team roster would work better in the long run (just under the Alpha Flight name)?

*A Guardian (Not Pointer please!...Plus a Guardian would totally take the place of a "Captain America" or Cap copy)

*Aurora (there should be at least one mutant on the team)

*Beta Ray Bill (He's now technically Canadian...He can still have cosmic adventures and be a member of the team...Thor does, why not Bill too?)

*Jack Frost (mysterious WWII hero trapped in the Arctic ice)

*Sasquatch

*Talisman

Weapon Alpha (Albert...Robotic duplicate of Wolverine with a genius intellect)

Snowbird could be a reserve member.

Maybe Arachne, if she's still in Canada by the time the series is put together.

I'm not sure of any other possible folks who might fit an "Avengers" sort of line-up.

Dana

[Flightpath07]

Throw in Moon Knight, Black Knight, Misty Knight, and Werewolf By Night. First issue could happen all at night, with no lights around, as an homage to AF Volume 1 Issue 6.

Or how about some of those lovable losers from the Great Lakes Avengers (or whatever they are now called)?

Maybe Yukon Jack, Union Jack, Jack the Ripper, Jack Black, Cracker Jack and Jack Spratt (okay, I think I am making up some of those ones)?

I agree, though, an Avengers-type comic would be the ONLY (visible) way to make this work, at least for right now. Trouble is, we all figure that when the Norman Osborne thing ends, we all going to lose a whole bunch of Avengers teams, so it may be a bad time to start a new one...so, how about Alpha Flight being a new Defenders team, based out of Canada? Perhaps?

[cmdrkoenig67]

Huh? FP, Are you making fun of my choices?...I tried to make it a good line-up (varied abilities/powers, character-types and personalities...A more international line-up, but all having connections to Canada in some way).

Dana :(

[Legerd]

Assuming the originals who are dead are not coming back, I'd like to see Windshear return, but since he's depowered it would be cool if he took up the Guardian mantle. Also, recreate the original Box by having a soldier who was injured in Afghanistan, and is now a paraplegic or quadriplegic, continue to serve his country by being phased into the robot. Bring back Aurora, Sasquatch, Snowbird and Talisman, plus have Earthmover take over as Shaman and create a new medicine pouch.

Seven characters should be more than enough to build a new team with. Having Box be new to the whole superhero thing would be interesting as he learns the whole "with great power comes great responsibility." Windshear's journey as he steps into the role of AF leader and national symbol would make for some good character growth and interaction. He would most certainly end up butting heads with any gov't lackey who thinks he'll just act as a figurehead and accept being told what to do. Similarly, Earthmover would have to step into Shaman's moccasins and learn to become a healer. Playing up his background as a hockey player (I'm thinking enforcer here) would make for some very unshamanic moments when he uses brute force rather than wisdom to defeat his foes. Snowbird, Aurora, Sasquatch and Talisman will all have to come to terms with the deaths of their friends/family and find a way to move on while working to clean Canada up of all the super powered villains who crossed the border after the US Registration Act.

[Flightpath07]

"Are you making fun of my choices?..."

Mockery is the greatest form of flatulence.

[zephyr74]

Since Earthmover came way after I stopped collecting, I have a question--is he a Sarcee/Blackfoot Indian or is he caucasian?

I don't think Alpha Flight as a Canadian version of the Avengers is a good idea. Byrne managed to give AF elements of the X-Men, the Avengers, and the Fantastic Four without aping any of them. I'd like to see THAT type of Alpha Flight. I'm sure someone could find a way to write the core characters back into continuity.

To me AF isn't AF without Heather Hudson. Whether written by Byrne, Mantlo, or Hudnall--Heather is the heart and soul of Alpha Flight.

Peace,
Zef

[Legerd]

There's nothing definitive as to Chuck (Earthmover) Moss' ethnicity so I'd assume he was Sarcee. In his bio it says he was nominated by his father to be apprenticed to Shaman; I doubt a non-aboriginal person would be accepted for this role.

To be honest I don't see the lineup I envisioned to be an Avenger copy. In fact the majority of the group has a mystical connection, while there are two technology-based characters (neither of which are scientists) and only one mutant. However, there have been so many Avengers that it would be difficult not to have some characters share similarities.
But as I stated at the beginning of my post, this lineup would be assuming the originals that have died are to be kept dead. I just think it would make for great character development if the team which takes over for the deceased Alphans has to deal with, not merely their loss, but having to replace them/carry on without them.

[Wildcard]

I think I would like to see Alpha take on a Justice League Unlimited approach.

A lot of different members on the team. More than the typical 4, 5 ,6 or 8 member teams we see in comics now. No more Alpha, Beta, Omega Flights. They are all one united team.

I believe it was Wolverine First Class that had an issue where Wolvie is assigned a mission and has to choose his team members from members of Alpha. Also, going back to AF 1 or 2, Heather tries to call on the members of Alpha Flight by putting ID cards in a machine which then set off some bio-implant that notified each of the members they were being called to duty. Members of the team are chosen specifically for each mission based on their skills and how best they can handle the assignment.

I like that idea.

Each issue or story arc would have a different line up of characters dealing with assorted problems to Canada. Would be a good way to keep older established characters as well as introduce newer ones.

Now and then comes a threat where Alpha has to take action as a full team which would really be something to see.

Did I mention that most of the people on this Alpha WANT to be heroes and that the Canadian population is proud of them? That right there would set it apart from evey other Marvel book out there

[Mokole]

Okay...I know many of us would like to see the original line-up for Alpha Flight in a relaunch (or something very close to that)...But Omega Flight sold very, very well...

Perhaps a more Avenger-ish team roster would work better in the long run (just under the Alpha Flight name)?

*A Guardian (Not Pointer please!...Plus a Guardian would totally take the place of a "Captain America" or Cap copy)

*Aurora (there should be at least one mutant on the team)

*Beta Ray Bill (He's now technically Canadian...He can still have cosmic adventures and be a member of the team...Thor does, why not Bill too?)

*Jack Frost (mysterious WWII hero trapped in the Arctic ice)

*Sasquatch

*Talisman

Weapon Alpha (Albert...Robotic duplicate of Wolverine with a genius intellect)

Snowbird could be a reserve member.

Maybe Arachne, if she's still in Canada by the time the series is put together.

I'm not sure of any other possible folks who might fit an "Avengers" sort of line-up.

Dana

I agree with a good Canadian Guardian (Radius, Feedback, best able to fill the role now). Aurora, Sasquatch, Talisman make for good dynamics. Arachne too.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Since Earthmover came way after I stopped collecting, I have a question--is he a Sarcee/Blackfoot Indian or is he caucasian?

I don't think Alpha Flight as a Canadian version of the Avengers is a good idea. Byrne managed to give AF elements of the X-Men, the Avengers, and the Fantastic Four without aping any of them. I'd like to see THAT type of Alpha Flight. I'm sure someone could find a way to write the core characters back into continuity.

To me AF isn't AF without Heather Hudson. Whether written by Byrne, Mantlo, or Hudnall--Heather is the heart and soul of Alpha Flight.

Peace,
Zef

Zef...No offense intended, but I love you! I really miss Heather too...She was awesome, whether she was in costume or a civilian...Great character. Marvel should be ashamed for killing her off (especially leaving her baby parentless).

I'd love to see Heather either be leader behind the scenes or as leader in the Guardian suit.

Dana

[Wildcard]

I liked Heather as well. She is a strong, positive female character in a leadership role. Not many high profile teams had a female leader at the time or even now.

I liked how Alpha Flight was almost as diverse as Canada itself although Im pretty sure Marvel didnt plan for that.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Continuity is going to be the biggest problem anyone has to face if or when MARVEL decides to publish another ALPHA FLIGHT book. A lot of the ideas put forth here deserve to be considered (and recognized, if used), 'though I'm not sure what MARVEL's motivation for publishing AF was/is/will be, anymore. Saying that volumes 2, 3, and Omega Flight were done for the fans still leaves me with a sick, sick feeling.

When AF was new and the stories were being written from "whole cloth,"
there wasn't much history to hold them back. Now, there is. Adherents to
continuity will try to make everything fit, whether it deserves to or not. I can't reconcile all the variations and different interpretations of AF over the 25+ years, but I wish whoever tries to combine Byrne-Mantlo-Seagle-Lobdell-Omeing into a cohesive whole the best of luck.

Going in a different, smaller, more focused direction, re-introducing original AF now, as FlightPath mentioned I believe, now that MARVEL has successfully destroyed the team and the comic, might be the re-set that brings the group back.

I really would like to see (and read) another good Alpha Flight story before too long.

[Flightpath07]

"I really would like to see (and read) another good Alpha Flight story before too long."

Well, on a good note, you have to believe that Mravel thinks there are some good characters from Flight. Madison Jeffries and Northstar are being used (if not all that well) in X comics. Aurora recently popped up, and actually got the better of Madman Norman. Snowbird seemed pretty successful in Incredible Hercules a while back, and now is getting her own digital story. These are all good signs. Marvel has not completely shut out all AF characters.

That being said, it seems like it is the team concept for these (and other) characters from AF that they do not approved of.

But remember, even the Avengers had to be "Disassembled" before they came back strong again.

Only difference is, nobody killed off all the Avengers, then constantly mocked their fans. :evil: :x

[zephyr74]

Thanks, Legerd. Earthmover as an aboriginal makes sense.

Dana,
No offense taken. I know from your other posts that you're also a big fan of Heather's. I don't know about Jack Frost as a member...but he could provide an interesting story.

Wildcard,
I hadn't thought about what a great role-model Heather was! You're absolutely right--she was smart, pretty, and resourceful. She was never depicted dressed like a tramp.

Marvel didn't plan that but Byrne did. In the Alpha Flight Classic TPB, they reprint his interview from Marvel Age Magazine. John Byrne stated that he wanted the team to be diverse and to also represent the different provinces, which they did.

Garry & FP,
There's no doubt that it's a continuity nightmare but a writer who has a passion for the team can make it work.

I can take or leave James Hudson (personally, I think the incessant rising from the dead is ridiculous) but Heather MUST be present in Alpha Flight.

-Zef

[rplass]

Marvel didn't plan that but Byrne did. In the Alpha Flight Classic TPB, they reprint his interview from Marvel Age Magazine. John Byrne stated that he wanted the team to be diverse and to also represent the different provinces, which they did.

Funny that you mention it! A few years back, I posted that very interview in its entirety. Read it all here:

Text of Marvel Age #2 interview with John Byrne (http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=1010)

Love,
rplass

[Flightpath07]

"Read it all here:"

Thanx, rplass, great link!

[Wildcard]

Marvel didn't plan that but Byrne did. In the Alpha Flight Classic TPB, they reprint his interview from Marvel Age Magazine. John Byrne stated that he wanted the team to be diverse and to also represent the different provinces, which they did.

Huh, Ive never read that interview before. I stand corrected. Byrne really put a lot of thought into the characters. He did sound passionate about them.

Also interesting to me was how Byrne wanted AF to be a "mission-Impossible" sort of team, chosen based on missions. I believe I posted something similar earlier in this thread but called it a Justice League Unlimited style. Mission Impossible does sound better :)

[Le Messor]

The other thing with that Mission Impossible format is, that could be the hook people are looking for -- those who say 'AF is just the Avengers... in Canada! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitlekt6mtovm4vne) What's so cool about that?'

- Le Messor
"Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better."
- Albert Camus

[cmdrkoenig67]

Garry,

I don't see various versions of Alpha/Omega Flight being the problem...It's individual character histories that are the biggest pains for both writers and readers (Puck's origin for one, Mac's various deaths and resurrections another...Mantlo's "the twins are really elves" shtick was cleared up, so we don't have to worry about that one). The Avengers have had various incarnations/Line-ups and that doesn't stop them from continuing.

The best thing to do where bad continuity is concerned (IMHO)...Is to ignore it where possible.

Dana


Continuity is going to be the biggest problem anyone has to face if or when MARVEL decides to publish another ALPHA FLIGHT book. A lot of the ideas put forth here deserve to be considered (and recognized, if used), 'though I'm not sure what MARVEL's motivation for publishing AF was/is/will be, anymore. Saying that volumes 2, 3, and Omega Flight were done for the fans still leaves me with a sick, sick feeling.

When AF was new and the stories were being written from "whole cloth,"
there wasn't much history to hold them back. Now, there is. Adherents to
continuity will try to make everything fit, whether it deserves to or not. I can't reconcile all the variations and different interpretations of AF over the 25+ years, but I wish whoever tries to combine Byrne-Mantlo-Seagle-Lobdell-Omeing into a cohesive whole the best of luck.

Going in a different, smaller, more focused direction, re-introducing original AF now, as FlightPath mentioned I believe, now that MARVEL has successfully destroyed the team and the comic, might be the re-set that brings the group back.

I really would like to see (and read) another good Alpha Flight story before too long.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

[quote="cmdrkoenig67"]Garry,

I don't see various versions of Alpha/Omega Flight being the problem...It's individual character histories that are the biggest pains for both writers and readers (Puck's origin for one, Mac's various deaths and resurrections another...Mantlo's "the twins are really elves" shtick was cleared up, so we don't have to worry about that one).

...The best thing to do where bad continuity is concerned (IMHO)...Is to ignore it where possible.

Dana

Although I think that it's the individual character histories that make up much of the continuity, I agree that ignoring the bad continuity, where possible, is a reasonable solution.

(1) Judd and Jean-Paul should have met/known doctors they trusted enough to go to before concluding that Lionel Jeffries was there only hope.
[Doc Sampson]
(2) Elizabeth should not have been able to take off the Coronet of Enchantment, therefore, Michael should not have been able to assume the role of "Talisman". [AF, vol. 1, #s 18 and 19]
(3) The Coronet heightened Elizabeth's resentment [a character trait that is established and plausable], but turns Michael into an aloof, uncaring shell of a man incapable of making important decisions [this is the opposite of what was established as a doctor or as a shaman].
(4) Most of Alpha Flight would have to not even know the basic code for a doctor is to "first, do no harm". There is no way that any of them would be so (sorry) stupid to entrust their lives to a man who turned a hospital full of doctors, nurses, and patients (and Heather) into deformed monsters.
(5) Roger and Madison were in a Clinic for Maladjusted Superfolk? WTF?

This is just the start of my list of things that should be forgotten, forever.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Garry,

I don't see various versions of Alpha/Omega Flight being the problem...It's individual character histories that are the biggest pains for both writers and readers (Puck's origin for one, Mac's various deaths and resurrections another...Mantlo's "the twins are really elves" shtick was cleared up, so we don't have to worry about that one).

...The best thing to do where bad continuity is concerned (IMHO)...Is to ignore it where possible.

Dana


Although I think that it's the individual character histories that make up much of the continuity, I agree that ignoring the bad continuity, where possible, is a reasonable solution.

(1) Judd and Jean-Paul should have met/known doctors they trusted enough to go to before concluding that Lionel Jeffries was there only hope.
[Doc Sampson]
(2) Elizabeth should not have been able to take off the Coronet of Enchantment, therefore, Michael should not have been able to assume the role of "Talisman". [AF, vol. 1, #s 18 and 19]

I don't recall if Byrne ever indicated that Elizabeth could "never" remove the coronet (just that it would be absolute agony to do so)?



(3) The Coronet heightened Elizabeth's resentment [a character trait that is established and plausable], but turns Michael into an aloof, uncaring shell of a man incapable of making important decisions [this is the opposite of what was established as a doctor or as a shaman].
(4) Most of Alpha Flight would have to not even know the basic code for a doctor is to "first, do no harm". There is no way that any of them would be so (sorry) stupid to entrust their lives to a man who turned a hospital full of doctors, nurses, and patients (and Heather) into deformed monsters.

Too true...Especially Heather (whom he first "molested") should have said "No freaking way!".



(5) Roger and Madison were in a Clinic for Maladjusted Superfolk? WTF?

Right...I believe John Byrne indicated that Madison and Roger didn't really know each other when they met in his run. Bill Mantlo contradicted this when he took over...I could be recalling this incorrectly, but didn't Mantlo write that Puck was at this clinic too?


This is just the start of my list of things that should be forgotten, forever.

Amen.

Dana

[zephyr74]

I hated when Shaman became Talisman during the Pestilence storyline.

Never read those issues but it sound like the last incarnation of Nemesis went against the existing mythology of the character.

[rplass]

(5) Roger and Madison were in a Clinic for Maladjusted Superfolk? WTF?

It was 'The Clinic for Socially Maladjusted Super-Beings' and I'm pretty sure that was a sarcastic name for Dept H's Beta and Gamma Flights that Puck was tossing around in his head , not an actual clinic.

The scene:

In Alpha Flight #46, Sasquatch and Box are struggling with each other after Box has gone crazy.

Sasquatch: "We're still your friends, let us help you!"

Box: "By choosing to defend Aurora, you reject me!"

Sasquatch: "You're crazy--!"

Box: "That's what they always said! But I'll show the world they were wrong!"

Sasquatch: "Huh? Who's they??"

Puck then catches Aurora, who has also gone all crazy, after Box tosses her down the stairs.

Puck says to himself: "You don't know, Sasquatch - - you couldn't! You were inducted straight into Alpha Flight, not Beta... and thus passed over the Clinic for Socially Maladjusted Super-Beings where I, and Mr. Jeffries and Box - - were tested! We graduated to Alpha when we were presumably 'Cured!' It appears that some of us merely learned to disguise our maladies!"

So I don't think it was an actual place, just a bit of sniping from Puck about the tier system at Dept H and some of the wonderful characters there (the smarmy and self-absorbed Smart Alec, the unpredictable and violent Wild Child, etc.) Technically, he should have said "not Beta nor Gamma..." instead of just "not Beta..." because Mr. Jeffries was never in Beta Flight. But, it's just a thought bubble where trailing sentences like that don't really count.

Love,
rplass

[Le Messor]

It was 'The Clinic for Socially Maladjusted Super-Beings' and I'm pretty sure that was a sarcastic name for Dept H's Beta and Gamma Flights that Puck was tossing around in his head , not an actual clinic.

Wow, that's a different interpretation. It kinda works, but I'm not sure I agree with it -- it looks like, in the context, everyone went through the clinic before induction (but not necessarily at the same time, which means Jeffries and Box might not've met there).

IIRC, this is the only mention of it ever. (Which lends weight to your theory.)

It's like Lil's "other alias", Creepy Crawley - another Puck sarcasm.

- Le Messor
"You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses."
- Ziggy

[cmdrkoenig67]

I can take or leave James Hudson (personally, I think the incessant rising from the dead is ridiculous) but Heather MUST be present in Alpha Flight.

-Zef

I agree, I'd love to see Heather leading the team again (even if it's not in the field).

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

I hated when Shaman became Talisman during the Pestilence storyline.

Never read those issues but it sound like the last incarnation of Nemesis went against the existing mythology of the character.

Yes (where Nemesis is concerned)...Mr Lobdell threw a few more wrenches into Alpha Flight continuity there (he made claims that his version of Nemesis was the same Nemesis as all the others, which really doesn't make sense)...However, the true blame lay on the writer (James Hudnall) who brought her back after Bill Mantlo had her crumble to dust. If only Hudnall made it perfectly clear that his Nemesis was a new one and not the original, perhaps Scott wouldn't have tried to make them all one and the same.

I also disliked Shaman becoming Talisman...I don't see how he could have in the first place...he was not the "chosen one", it should have been impossible for him to even put on the coronet of power.

Dana

[Le Messor]

While Lobdell did say that Nemesis was all three the same, he never put it in the book itself; so it can be safely ignored.

Shaman as Talisman... meh. Bad move, but far from the worst of the period; and arguably possible. We know only Liz could've pulled the Talisman out'f the pouch, it was never said...
Yeah, that sounds pretty lame, donut?

- Le Messor
"Children have never been good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them."
- James Baldwin

[cmdrkoenig67]

While Lobdell did say that Nemesis was all three the same, he never put it in the book itself; so it can be safely ignored.

Very true, Mik.


Shaman as Talisman... meh. Bad move, but far from the worst of the period; and arguably possible. We know only Liz could've pulled the Talisman out'f the pouch, it was never said...
Yeah, that sounds pretty lame, donut?

Yes...Yes, it does...LOL! All I'm saying is...When Narya first met Elizabeth, the first thing she did was bow before her (that indicates Liz was meant for greatness and it convinced Michael of his daughter's special destiny)...AFAIK, Snowbird never bowed before Michael Twoyoungmen...He was never meant to wear it.


- Le Messor
"Children have never been good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them."
- James Baldwin

Great quote.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Back on track...I'm beginning to think a line-up of just Byrne's original team would be a mistake...After all, do we see only Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's Avengers line-up still to this day?...No...It's always a mix of new and old.

Alpha needs to be the same (a good balance of old and new)...But I think with Alpha, the basic premise can't be messed with...Heroes of Canada teaming up to defend their country (no funky X-Files conspiracies and no bad comedy routines). Maybe Byrne's original approach is best, though...Heroes from various Provinces scattered across the nation, who team up only when they need to.

I really think Heather should be the one to reunite Alpha Flight for Volume 4, just like she did in Volume 1 and lead them again (I'm nostalgic).

Dana

[Flightpath07]

I really think Heather should be the one to reunite Alpha Flight for Volume 4, just like she did in Volume 1 and lead them again (I'm nostalgic).

Well, I have to admit, that'd make more sense than Sasquatch doing so in Volume 3 and again in Omega Flight. He was never a true leader, just a good supporting character.

[Le Messor]

Back on track...I'm beginning to think a line-up of just Byrne's original team would be a mistake...

Possibly true... When I say I want Byrne's team back, I mean something that at least resembles it in style, tones, ideas, and character line-up.
I don't mind my book changing with time, but I want something that is recogniseably it.


After all, do we see only Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's Avengers line-up still to this day?...

From time to time. Same with the JLA; we still occasionally see Stan & Jack's orig--
You know what I mean!

(I got that quote from a quote of the day calendar.)

- LM
"Freedom of the press belongs to those that own one."
- A.J. Liebling

[Ahab]

Back on track...I'm beginning to think a line-up of just Byrne's original team would be a mistake...After all, do we see only Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's Avengers line-up still to this day?...No...It's always a mix of new and old.

Alpha needs to be the same (a good balance of old and new)...But I think with Alpha, the basic premise can't be messed with...Heroes of Canada teaming up to defend their country (no funky X-Files conspiracies and no bad comedy routines). Maybe Byrne's original approach is best, though...Heroes from various Provinces scattered across the nation, who team up only when they need to.

I really think Heather should be the one to reunite Alpha Flight for Volume 4, just like she did in Volume 1 and lead them again (I'm nostalgic).

Dana

I think Heather should be back and just skip the first generation. Why not seek out Elizabeth to lead the new generation of Alpha Flight - Puck II, Mar, Snowbird's son and Jeffries' progeny revealed in Death's Head or whatever that series was called. Maybe Walter's son is scientifically curious like his dad. Heck, you could even age Heather and Mac's kid! Throw in the Legacies and you have a new team ripe with tons of backstory and just waiting to be screwed up by countless Marvel writers that have no imagination.

I'm only being about half sarcastic. I actually wish there was enough interest to so something like this (to the extent that it could be done using good storytelling), but know it would never fly. Too much baggage...

[Flightpath07]

It is a thought, Ahab.

There are TONNES of cool AF characters out there, that have fallen by the wayside and never been fleshed out fully..

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...I don't recall if Byrne ever indicated that Elizabeth could "never" remove the coronet (just that it would be absolute agony to do so)?...
Dana

Both Byrne and Mantlo stated that the Coronet could not be removed: Byrne in AF, vol. 1, # 20 and Mantlo in AF# 35 (the issue where Michael is given the ancestral garb by Talisman after successfully completing his Spirit Tests).

To delve deeper into the plausibility of someone else assuming the role of Talisman, it doesn't seem reasonable to have a specific person pull the Coronet out of the medicine pouch's void (something Michael never did as Shaman), only to have anybody else take it from her---even someone with quasi-magical powers like Pestilence and don it (Michael). Shaman is one of my favorite characters, but it is pretty much established that he was not the one foretold, nor was he the Breaker of Dark Spells or the Binder of Spirits. While Pestilence may have had the mystical might to take the Coronet off of Elizabeth and not really give a damn what happened to her as a consequence, it doesn't seem possible that an aged Shaman would be able to function as "Talisman." Moreover, the tragedy that Shaman forewarned at the very beginning was manifesting: (1) the "psychic death" she (and Northstar and Aurora) received by Somon in AF# 24; (2) the drug(s) the robot Delphine Courtney injected her with [off-panel] between AF#s 26 and 27; and (3) being trapped in the void when Shaman had to chose whom to help first, Snowbird or Elizabeth.

While the motivation of resentment was the only one Mantlo tapped into, there were several reasons why the creation of Pestilence should have been Alpha Flight's biggest tragedy.