Tom Brevoort-Alpha Flight news (or lack there of)

[-K-M-]

I just asked him, "Any plans for Alpha Flight for The Heroic Age or any plans for them in general? "

Tom: "Boy, I wish somebody would come up with the new take or new approach that licks ALPHA FLIGHT, but we really haven't found it yet, despite the fact that a number of people have tried over the years. I think this is largely the result of the fact that, initially, Alpha Flight was created to be cool, colorful antagonists to the X-Men, and in that role they were incredibly fascinating. But when they became headliners, a lot of their mystique evaporated away, despite their long run. They really do suffer as a concept for having their core concept tied so much to geography. It's tough to be the "Avengers of Canada" when the Avengers are the Avengers of Canada and everywhere else as well."

and yet look who is getting a new mini....

http://marvel.com/blogs/Agent_M/entry/1746

[Le Messor]

Tom Brevoort? He was pretty high up in Marvel for a while.
Shouldn't he have read some of Alpha Flight at some point? 'Coz according to his talk above, he didn't!

- Le Messor
"The world was here before you; why, therefore, should it owe you a living?"
- WGP

[-K-M-]

Nice guy for answering all those questions, as Im sure he gets countless ones every day

Q. Thanks for answering the Alpha Flight question, but I just saw Winter Guard is getting their own mini and they have prob gone through more reboots then Alpha Flight. Also why was the successful Omega Flight ultimately ignored? (that was a new take)

A. It's not about the number of rethinks, though, it's about having a core concept and a take that people think might work. in teh case of the Winter Guard, while they've changed a lot over the years they've never really been headliners, so if there's an approach that sems to have some merit, why not give them a try? In the case of Alpha Flight, though, nobody's as-yet quite cracked that. And as for Omega Flight, it wasn't as successful as you might think.

Omega Flight wasn't a success?
----
Also did he just say Hulk is faster then Northstar?

EDIT: Just so people know I didn't ask this question

Q. lol. Now one of your "official ratings approvers" on your web site has given Hulk more speed than Northstar! And more fighting skills than Taskmaster. Hulkites are taking over your company!

A. Those Power Ratings, while fun, have always been flawed in that the range they need to cover in 7 increments is too great. I haven't looked at their stats, but just as an example, if Northstar can run really fast but can't cover great distances at speed, and the Hulk can leap far enough and fast enough to span continents, then it's possible that he would wind up with a greater speed rating. Not saying that's what's happened here, but that's the kind of thing that crops up from time to time.

[MistressMerr]

Omega Flight wasn't a success?
It sold well, not well enough to justify an ongoing, though. And that was with the boost of being an Initiative tie-in.

[-K-M-]

It actually beat a lot of on-goings though.

At the very least another mini wouldn't be stretch.

[Mokole]

Well, at least you got him to answer. I think my story ideas are pretty, excuse me for being bold, "kick-a**", and would gain a new audience while keeping the old pretty well.

And OF selling 50000+ as a mini is awfully successful. But who cares now, we want an AF series back. Time for my part 2, I think.

[MistressMerr]

It actually beat a lot of on-goings though.

At the very least another mini wouldn't be stretch.

Yes, but it was also bleeding thousands of readers with every issue. The ongoings that subsist on the numbers it was pulling by the end (which are few) are the ones that have really solid fanbases to keep that low number steady. Omega likely would have just kept falling, especially without the Initiative boost.

I do agree that another mini wouldn't kill them, especially with guaranteed non-starters like the Winter Guard getting their days in the limelight, but given that most of the team is dead or otherwise scattered to the winds, it would need another legitimate reason to exist, like Omega did after the Civil War.

[mreeez]

I just asked him, "Any plans for Alpha Flight for The Heroic Age or any plans for them in general? "

Tom: "Boy, I wish somebody would come up with the new take or new approach that licks ALPHA FLIGHT, but we really haven't found it yet, despite the fact that a number of people have tried over the years. I think this is largely the result of the fact that, initially, Alpha Flight was created to be cool, colorful antagonists to the X-Men, and in that role they were incredibly fascinating. But when they became headliners, a lot of their mystique evaporated away, despite their long run. They really do suffer as a concept for having their core concept tied so much to geography. It's tough to be the "Avengers of Canada" when the Avengers are the Avengers of Canada and everywhere else as well."

and yet look who is getting a new mini....

http://marvel.com/blogs/Agent_M/entry/1746

He says as they put out three new Avengers books.

[MistressMerr]

He says as they put out three new Avengers books.
UGH, I feel like I'm not shutting up in this thread, but aaaaaah that frustrates me so much. They cancelled three mediocre titles that were selling great and one great title that was selling decently in order to streamline the franchise. Way to go, Marvel, that's a great idea based on creative integrity instead of $$$$ with the Avengers currently being all over the map.

Then they negate it completely. I just don't get the thinking here. Like, at all.

Heck, I'd take an Alpha Flight book if they called it Avengers Canada, and it makes more sense than some of the other ones they're randomly churning out.

[-K-M-]

Technically there's 4 Avengers books now: Seret Avengers, New Avengers, Avengers and Avengers Academy. Also there is Avengers Prime but that might just be a one-shot or the very max a mini.

[mreeez]

Technically there's 4 Avengers books now: Seret Avengers, New Avengers, and Avengers Academy. Also there is Avengers Prime but that might just be a one-shot or the very max a mini.

Yeah, I forgot about Secret Avengers. Avengers Academy looks fairly weak so far, from what they've previewed. I wonder how long they'll give that book.

[Phil]

To be fair they've replaced rather than put out;

Mighty Avengers > Avengers
New Avengers > New Avengers
Dark Avengers > Secret Avengers
Avengers:The Initiative > Avengers Academy

Not saying that one becomes the other, but they still haven't flooded the market per se. It's less than X team titles now, and definitely less than in the 90's.

Not saying they deserve to stay, but people are buying them.

[jay042]

The problem in the 90's that Alpha Flight got pushed aside for X-Books, and now it's Avengers books.

[Ben]

So does it have to fit into one of the big groupings to survive in today's Marvel? Should it be Alpha Flight with a subtitle "Avengers North"? What will this do to old-school fans? Future Fans? Has this book suffered from lack of direct integration with the rest of the Marvel Universe? Or is that what has set it apart, giving it past success, and such a loyal fan-base?

[Phil]

I think that the problem lies in the fact that if you talk to anyone about Alpha Flight they instantly think back to the Byrne era.
If you ask a fan what their favourite aspect of AF is, chances are they'll say the disfunctional family-esque aspect of the Byrne era.
If a creator is a fan of AF and is asked what they liked about AF they tend to mention the Byrne era with much love and misty memories.

That bottled lightning just hasn't been reproduced.

[bigbloo]

I wonder if Byrne Era AF would interest new readers these days. I'm just not really sure what the comic buying population is looking for. I personally am interested in characters dealing with their powers and their personal relationships. Not so much into the whole government/politics thing.

[Phil]

And therein lies the problem; if the one thing that made it unique and attractive in the first place is no longer interesting, what is the selling point?

/me corporation devils advocate

[varo]

heres what kills me about the marvel ptb. they are always looking for a "hook' something that sets a book apart from the rest, which i totally understand, because you need something to take a book past the hardcore fans (like us) to mainstream casual fans. but i think they try to hard to make every book a 50k plus seller, i understand every publisher has a cutoff number between profitability and loss and i respect that, but not every book is going to be on the cover of usa today. some books just find their niche and are solid for years (thunderbolts, x-factor).

with that said why is it so hard for marvel to realize that the best "hook" any book can have is a strong creative team that loves and understands the character. where was captain america before brubaker? where was hercules before van lente? iron man before fraction? avengers before bendis? they where all marvel icons with average sales. heck look at what geoff johns has done for green lantern and the flash, and lets not forget animal man was unknown before grant morrison got around to him.

my point is this. give me fred van lente and clayton henry on a alpha book and lets see where it goes.

[Phil]

With Disney's support behind Marvel it's possible that in the near future we'll get lower selling books surviving, but, to use an example you used above, Hercules has still gone the way of the dodo due to sales and had to be revamped as Prince of Power to continue the saga of Cho.

[DelBubs]

I gotta agree with Phil. Apart from what FabNic and Furman did with Alpha towards the end of vol 1, no one's come close to what made Alpha viable. Maybe inadvertently, Byrne not only created Alpha, but precipitated their demise by the very fact that no one could match what he did with them. It's been proved that Alpha can't hack it as a X-Book, (then again, how many do?), apart from the core books, X-Books come and go. As for being part of the Avengers family in any way, I somehow doubt that another Avengers book in any form is going to fly off the shelves.

Alpha needs to be unique and stand alone. The only thing that would suggest Alpha is diffferent from other groups is geographical location, but is even that enough to make Alpha anything more than a periodic limited series team?

[varo]

i've always loved a "international" type team. captain Britain, guardian, winter guard. they could be a part of the avengers international team. it would be a great opportunity to see some lesser used heroes, as well as having a main book to see guardian and walter, pete wisdom, capt. britain, meeghan, etc......

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Eventually, The Avengers will so oversaturate the market that it won't be able to sustain 7, 8, and 9 different titles. I doubt anyone will know exactly when that time will be. If Alpha Flight fans can hold out until that time comes, a resurgent Alpha Flight may be a result.

[Flightpath07]

So does it have to fit into one of the big groupings to survive in today's Marvel? Should it be Alpha Flight with a subtitle "Avengers North"? What will this do to old-school fans? Future Fans? Has this book suffered from lack of direct integration with the rest of the Marvel Universe? Or is that what has set it apart, giving it past success, and such a loyal fan-base?

Truthfully Ben, I think Alpha Flight needs to exist in its own universe, where they are the top dogs of the superhero world. Reason being, they need to stay unique and true to Canada and its values to be Alpha Flight, yet they cannot do that in the current Marvel universe because it limits their exposure to the big name heroes and baddies.

To give some props to Marvel (and I HATE to do that...), they realize this. Problem is, rather than giving us an Ultimate (or other universe) AF that we can love and be proud of, they are doing nothing, nothing other than killing off all of its characters so that it can never be brought back. They see it as an abyssmal failure that will never work. And, in the normal Marvel U, they are closer to right than we like to admit...

[mreeez]

I think AF can be a viable book as long as it's not just that they are a team from Canada, there has to be something else to the book and I think they had it with Omega Flight. They mixed it up a bit by integrating some non-Canadian heroes and could have gone a number a ways coming on the heels of Civil War. Now the writers of the book could have brought in any number of different threats for OF to deal with in villains leaving the states.

Now, there are a still a number of ways AF can be re-worked. They can be an international team like Varo said but it seems from what Tom B. has said, that an international team already exists and thats the Avengers. They can be a 'mystical' team, which would be interesting considering all the characters they have had with mystical backgrounds. They can be pretty much anything, just using some of the classic AF characters and being based out of Canada. They key is having interesting characters to bring people to the table again. They had that with OF bringing in the likes of Beta Ray Bill and such. It would have been interesting to see how OF would have gone before it had to be turned into a mini.

[Dfense75]

I agree mreeez. Till this day I would love to sit down with Mike Avon Oeming and talk about what his plans might have been for Omega the ongoing. Before the news of the downgrade I honestly thought the book had a shot. Maybe I am old fashioned in a world of marketing focus groups determining what is put out now a days. But if you give your fans good art, writing, and compelling characters than the rest should take care of itself. If only we could find out which writer/artists in Marvel want to pitch a Flight idea, get a hold of he/her before hand, and start another flight for the fight backed by a creator with a good pitch. I know if I went to my boss with an idea and I had a list of customers that wanted a part of that idea in my hand. I am more than likely to be heard.

[jay042]

I agree mreeez. Till this day I would love to sit down with Mike Avon Oeming and talk about what his plans might have been for Omega the ongoing. Before the news of the downgrade I honestly thought the book had a shot. Maybe I am old fashioned in a world of marketing focus groups determining what is put out now a days. But if you give your fans good art, writing, and compelling characters than the rest should take care of itself. If only we could find out which writer/artists in Marvel want to pitch a Flight idea, get a hold of he/her before hand, and start another flight for the fight backed by a creator with a good pitch. I know if I went to my boss with an idea and I had a list of customers that wanted a part of that idea in my hand. I am more than likely to be heard.

I'm not certain that could help. I got the impression most of those kinds of pitch meetings and the editorial process in creating new books is highly confidential inside the big two. A creator getting outside support before the deal is signed off on might not be taken to kindly to.

[Flightpath07]

If only we could find out which writer/artists in Marvel want to pitch a Flight idea, get a hold of he/her before hand, and start another flight for the fight backed by a creator with a good pitch. I know if I went to my boss with an idea and I had a list of customers that wanted a part of that idea in my hand. I am more than likely to be heard.

Again, you are forgetting how much work Marvel has put into killing off Alpha Flight characters. Even MINOR characters. Did anybody, outside of us here, really care that much about wrapping up the Marrina threads with her death at Namor's hands? Does anybody think Marvel was being hounded by people wanting to know what happened to her? NO! They killed her off, becuz the more Alpha characters they kill off, the less likely it is that an Alpha series will ever work. They do not want one to work! Face it, they do not care. Yes, many writers and artists would love a shot at an Alpha series; many have made pitches, some of them probably quite decent, and ALL have been turned down promptly. But, Marvel itself...they do not ever want to TOUCH an AF series, not ever again. What about Diamond Lil being killed off? Of all the useless mutants on that frickin' island, you think it was a fluke that Lil was the one offed? Hold on to your hats, cuz I do not think Marvel is done killing off Alpha characters yet! Within the next year, either Talisman or Snowbird will buy it, too. And Sasquatch may very well follow...

At this point, no writer, not even John Byrne hisself, has any chance of convincing Marvel to do anything to do with AF.

[Flightpath07]

I'm not certain that could help. I got the impression most of those kinds of pitch meetings and the editorial process in creating new books is highly confidential inside the big two. A creator getting outside support before the deal is signed off on might not be taken to kindly to.

Especially if the support comes from one of US. They have laughed at us, pissed us off, lied to us, mocked us and made fun of us. Anybody who thinks they are suddenly going to turn araound and respect us and listen to us, raise your hand now (I know that mine are firmly in my pockets, so Marvel can't get at any more of my hard-earned cash).

I love the Flight, I truly do. But I am SO done with Marvel.

[MistressMerr]

Especially if the support comes from one of US. They have laughed at us, pissed us off, lied to us, mocked us and made fun of us. Anybody who thinks they are suddenly going to turn araound and respect us and listen to us, raise your hand now (I know that mine are firmly in my pockets, so Marvel can't get at any more of my hard-earned cash).

I love the Flight, I truly do. But I am SO done with Marvel.

Okay, as frustrating as their treatment over the past few years has been, this "MARVEL HATES ALPHA FLIGHT AND IS OUT TO DESTROY THEM" vendetta theory is utterly ridiculous. Guess what? If Marvel doesn't want an Alpha series to ever happen? They just won't make one! They aren't going to go out of their way to specifically kill off a bunch of random C- and D-listers, that's just dumb. Marrina was killed off because someone wanted to tell a Namor story to tie him in further with the X-Men, and his Alphan ex-wife who's been a dangling plotline and as good as dead for years was a prime target. Lil was killed off because they needed a random mutant, you don't see fans of the younger generation of mutants up in arms with conspiracy theories because Onyxx died too, do you? And if possible, those kids have been treated even WORSE than Alpha Flight has, there just happens to be more of them! Madison's increased relevance made her an even better choice (and you conveniently ignore that, of course, because Marvel actually using an Alpha Flight character, one who's been relegated to limbo for YEARS, in a prominent role doesn't jive with this anti-Canada supervillain you've decided they are).

There will always be characters that aren't in the A-list, and those are the ones who get crap piled on them when writers need sacrificial lambs for their stories. Alpha Flight is firmly in that category. It sucks, but it's the way it is. Marvel has given Alpha Flight chances, rebooting the title THREE TIMES since its cancellation, but none of them took. Creatively, they screwed the pooch on a couple of them, but those were mistakes, not part of some grand scheme to pound them into irrelevance. Chill oooout.

Maybe Alpha will get their day in the sun once again. Maybe they won't. The nature of the business means it will always be unpredictable. Until then, enjoy all the great stuff we've already gotten over the years and take what you can get, going forward. I know opinions were mixed, but, bittersweet as it was, that Lil/Mads Nation X 8-pager was one of my favourite stories to come out of the X-Men in a long while. And it never would have existed if this supposed Alpha Flight jihad had any real bearing.

[Legerd]

Especially if the support comes from one of US. They have laughed at us, pissed us off, lied to us, mocked us and made fun of us. Anybody who thinks they are suddenly going to turn araound and respect us and listen to us, raise your hand now (I know that mine are firmly in my pockets, so Marvel can't get at any more of my hard-earned cash).

I love the Flight, I truly do. But I am SO done with Marvel.

Quite agree. I was tired of being pissed on by Marvel and walked away a few years ago. I make sure to let them know however at every opportunity, and plan to let DC know that when they start adding Canadian content to their books I'll pick them up. Right now I'm waiting for the new Canadian character in Outsiders to show up as my jumping on point.

[Flightpath07]

MistressMerr, I respectfully disagree with pretty much everything you said. However, you are entitled to your opinions. Please respect my right to mine, despite the fact that they do not jive with yours. Thank you.

BTW, a vendetta is "a blood feud between families or other parties." That requires two parties. I do not recall Alpha Flight, in any of it's three volumes, or in Omega Flight either, taking any shots at Marvel head offices, or trying to kill anybody there...

[Phil]

People - let's play nicely or not at all.

[mreeez]

Okay, as frustrating as their treatment over the past few years has been, this "MARVEL HATES ALPHA FLIGHT AND IS OUT TO DESTROY THEM" vendetta theory is utterly ridiculous. Guess what? If Marvel doesn't want an Alpha series to ever happen? They just won't make one! They aren't going to go out of their way to specifically kill off a bunch of random C- and D-listers, that's just dumb. Marrina was killed off because someone wanted to tell a Namor story to tie him in further with the X-Men, and his Alphan ex-wife who's been a dangling plotline and as good as dead for years was a prime target. Lil was killed off because they needed a random mutant, you don't see fans of the younger generation of mutants up in arms with conspiracy theories because Onyxx died too, do you? And if possible, those kids have been treated even WORSE than Alpha Flight has, there just happens to be more of them! Madison's increased relevance made her an even better choice (and you conveniently ignore that, of course, because Marvel actually using an Alpha Flight character, one who's been relegated to limbo for YEARS, in a prominent role doesn't jive with this anti-Canada supervillain you've decided they are).

There will always be characters that aren't in the A-list, and those are the ones who get crap piled on them when writers need sacrificial lambs for their stories. Alpha Flight is firmly in that category. It sucks, but it's the way it is. Marvel has given Alpha Flight chances, rebooting the title THREE TIMES since its cancellation, but none of them took. Creatively, they screwed the pooch on a couple of them, but those were mistakes, not part of some grand scheme to pound them into irrelevance. Chill oooout.

Maybe Alpha will get their day in the sun once again. Maybe they won't. The nature of the business means it will always be unpredictable. Until then, enjoy all the great stuff we've already gotten over the years and take what you can get, going forward. I know opinions were mixed, but, bittersweet as it was, that Lil/Mads Nation X 8-pager was one of my favourite stories to come out of the X-Men in a long while. And it never would have existed if this supposed Alpha Flight jihad had any real bearing.

I'm with you on this one. It's not that they don't want a Flight title to succeed, it's that they don't think one will succeed.

With all of the bad writing and retcons and deaths and rebirths in AF, they have become somewhat of a joke that current writers have tapped into in that way (Fraction comes to mind). For them to be viable again, they have to be portrayed as 'cool' or interesting which they have not been for years. I thought an interesting spin on the roster, as with Omega Flight, was a good way to go but to get a good Flight book with some of the classic Flight characters in it, they are going to have to be built back up and show a new generation of readers that AF characters are not just punch line characters. This will take time to do but it has to start with the current writers of other books showing them in a positive light like Van Lente does. Maybe then we can get a Flight book that will satisfy the hardcore readers and bring new ones to the table.

[Le Messor]

One thing really disturbs me about that Winter Guard cover, a problem that goes back to Alpha.

One of the things that always attracted me to Alpha is not that it's set in Canada, but that it isn't set in the US. I'm not American, and don't want to read a bunch of 'America is the Greatest Nation On Earth' stuff.

So why did Omega Flight, and now Winter Guard, both have a Captain America type? Is it part of the post-911 jingoism that a non-American team must have a patriotic American hero?
(And, yes, I do know enough of Bucky's second coming history to understand his place in the team.)

Or is it just a coincidence?

- Le Messor
"Education is what remains when we have forgotten all that we have been taught."
- George Saville

[MistressMerr]

One thing really disturbs me about that Winter Guard cover, a problem that goes back to Alpha.

One of the things that always attracted me to Alpha is not that it's set in Canada, but that it isn't set in the US. I'm not American, and don't want to read a bunch of 'America is the Greatest Nation On Earth' stuff.

So why did Omega Flight, and now Winter Guard, both have a Captain America type? Is it part of the post-911 jingoism that a non-American team must have a patriotic American hero?
(And, yes, I do know enough of Bucky's second coming history to understand his place in the team.)

Or is it just a coincidence?

- Le Messor
"Education is what remains when we have forgotten all that we have been taught."
- George Saville

It's an interesting point, but if you mean the Red Guardian, the Winter Guard's always had a Red Guardian on the team, he's Russia's answer to Captain America and has been around nearly as long. There's nothing American about that guy at all, he's like their Guardian.

[Le Messor]

It's an interesting point, but if you mean the Red Guardian,

... y'know, I guess I do.
I'd only seen the thumbnail, and thought it was Bucky. All those stars and stripes confused me. Way to ruin a perfectly pointless rant! :)

Also, I read a comic with Red Guardian the other day, and she looked nothing like that (she was a Defender at the time, I believe).

- Le Messor
To the Blue Raja: "Y'know, you have every other colour in here. You could at least work in a little blue!"
- Mystery Men

[MistressMerr]

Way to ruin a perfectly pointless rant! :)

Also, I read a comic with Red Guardian the other day, and she looked nothing like that (she was a Defender at the time, I believe).

My bad. XD

The Winter Guard seems to go through their members like candy, that Defenders issue was probably five Red Guardians ago by this point. :p

[cmdrkoenig67]

One thing really disturbs me about that Winter Guard cover, a problem that goes back to Alpha.

One of the things that always attracted me to Alpha is not that it's set in Canada, but that it isn't set in the US. I'm not American, and don't want to read a bunch of 'America is the Greatest Nation On Earth' stuff.

So why did Omega Flight, and now Winter Guard, both have a Captain America type? Is it part of the post-911 jingoism that a non-American team must have a patriotic American hero?
(And, yes, I do know enough of Bucky's second coming history to understand his place in the team.)

Or is it just a coincidence?

- Le Messor
"Education is what remains when we have forgotten all that we have been taught."
- George Saville

Hi Mik,

I really don't believe it's a post-911 thing...Most Government-run/funded/etc teams have a flag bearer of some sort, since they are just that...Government teams. The Avengers is (of course) an American/UN-sanctioned team, but keep in mind Captain America hasn't always been a member.

The Winter Guard (formerly The People's Protectorate, I believe) has been around for many years and Red Guardian appears to have been a member since the beginning (although, it may have been different men in the uniform over the years)...Even the once-Government-sanctioned mutant team (which confusingly, now seems to have merged with their former enemies in the Winter Guard), the Soviet Super Soldiers had Vanguard (with his Hammer and Sickle).

Germany had Hauptmann Deutschland (Captain Germany, now called Vormund) on it's govt team (The Schutz Heiligruppe).

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

My bad. XD

The Winter Guard seems to go through their members like candy, that Defenders issue was probably five Red Guardians ago by this point. :p

it may be closer to 8 or 10...LOL!

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

BTW: Again...Sales for Omega Flight (these numbers are from CBR and I'm not totally sure of their accuracy)...

Omega Flight 1 58,093
Omega Flight 2 57,221
Omega Flight 3 55,660
Omega Flight 4 52,253
Omega Flight 5 48,883

OM# 5 still had far more readers than many of the "should be canceled for low numbers" books selling now, Losing a bit less than 10,000 readers since it's first issue (but still well above cancellation numbers).

Marvel execs would kill for a book selling at the numbers above right now.

Dana

[MistressMerr]

BTW: Again...Sales for Omega Flight (these numbers are from CBR and I'm not totally sure of their accuracy)...

Omega Flight 1 58,093
Omega Flight 2 57,221
Omega Flight 3 55,660
Omega Flight 4 52,253
Omega Flight 5 48,883

OM# 5 still had far more readers than many of the "should be canceled for low numbers" books selling now, Losing a bit less than 10,000 readers since it's first issue (but still well above cancellation numbers).

Marvel execs would kill for a book selling at the numbers above right now.

Dana

And again, it was losing THOUSANDS of readers with EVERY issue. When there were only five issues, and they had the benefit of being a tie-in to something, that's not a good thing. The comics that are selling those numbers now have been HOLDING those numbers for some time now, and the rest are being knocked off one at a time. Those are certainly numbers that we can be proud of, but they are NOT enough to sustain an ongoing.

[Le Messor]

I really don't believe it's a post-911 thing...Most Government-run/funded/etc teams have a flag bearer of some sort

Hi Dana,

My misplaced rant wasn't about a flag-bearing hero (I read Alpha Flight, after all!) it was about what I thought was a U.S. flag bearing hero on a Russian team (so soon after one on a Canadian team!); but I'd mistaken him for someone else. There was no US flagger.

- Mik
"Given time, a generally accepted solution to this problem will evolve, as it has in the past for other issues, only to be replaced by the next issue, which no one has even dreamt of yet."
~ Andrew Lawrence

[Phil]

BTW: Again...Sales for Omega Flight (these numbers are from CBR and I'm not totally sure of their accuracy)...
OM# 5 still had far more readers than many of the "should be canceled for low numbers" books selling now, Losing a bit less than 10,000 readers since it's first issue (but still well above cancellation numbers).

But did it sell those numbers because it was a limited series and casual fans knew they'd only be committed for 5 issues and not a long expensive slog?

[mreeez]

And again, it was losing THOUSANDS of readers with EVERY issue. When there were only five issues, and they had the benefit of being a tie-in to something, that's not a good thing. The comics that are selling those numbers now have been HOLDING those numbers for some time now, and the rest are being knocked off one at a time. Those are certainly numbers that we can be proud of, but they are NOT enough to sustain an ongoing.

I may be off in my assessment on this but I think a major reason for the 10k drop by the end was the re-write to make it a mini. That seemed to stretch out the first arc and drag the book along. Also, one of the gripes I repeatedly heard about the book was the lack of Beta Ray Bill which seems to have happened because of the re-write. I think there were a lot of non-Flight people out there that were drawn to the book not only for the Initiative tie-in but because of the line up including some heroes like Beta Ray Bill that readers don't get to see in a regular basis and not getting BRB pretty much at all in the first few issues probably caused people to drop it especially knowing it was a mini anyway.

[-K-M-]

Yeah there was supposed to be a lot more BRB, as we were going to see his human mother introduced and such.

I know a lot of people who don't buy minis as often times once their done their not referenced again in another book and thus forgotten.

[DelBubs]

But did it sell those numbers because it was a limited series and casual fans knew they'd only be committed for 5 issues and not a long expensive slog?
I don't buy individual issues anymore, I buy TPB's of comics that interest me. I wonder what the figures where for the TPB and if figures may have been higher without TPB's being a factor?

[DMK]

I'm a little late to the discussion, but I thought this was interesting:


44. DARK X-MEN
11/09 Dark X-Men #1 of 5 - 50,167
12/09 Dark X-Men #2 of 5 - 42,207 (-15.9%)
01/10 Dark X-Men #3 of 5 - 37,873 (-10.3%)
02/10 Dark X-Men #4 of 5 - 35,007 ( -7.6%)
Considering that X-Men spin-offs don’t sell the way they used to, and
that Dark Reign tie-ins are all over the place, this is doing well.
It’s outselling X-FACTOR and NEW MUTANTS, for example.



53. OMEGA FLIGHT
04/07 Omega Flight #1 of 5 - 71,205
05/07 Omega Flight #2 of 5 - 57,239 (-19.6%)
06/07 Omega Flight #3 of 5 - 55,695 ( -2.7%)
07/07 Omega Flight #4 of 5 - 52,271 ( -6.1%)
08/07 Omega Flight #5 of 5 - 48,886 ( -6.5%)
Certainly good enough numbers to justify another series. But having said that, if these were the first five issues of an ongoing title, I’d be a little worried about the drops in the last two months.


And, for some perspective on that big Issue 1- Issue 2 drop:





42. OMEGA FLIGHT
05/04 Alpha Flight #3 - 32,684
=====
04/07 Omega Flight #1 of 5 - 71,205
05/07 Omega Flight #2 of 5 - 57,239 (-19.6%)
3 year (+75.1%) A second printing of issue #1 hits the shelves with a variant cover, and adds 13,052 to the total. Without those re-orders, the second issue drop would have been miniscule. This book is doing unexpectedly well, and at this stage, the signs look promising for it to become an ongoing title after all.



I picked Dark X-Men for several reasons. 1. No a-listers. 2. 5 issue mini-series. 3. Tied into big event.



It's pretty plain that Omega Flight out-performed Dark X-Men on every level. Yet, Dark X-Men is still looked upon as successful by someone whose opinion I truly respect in these matters (namely, comparing sales performances between titles.) Omega could have dropped a fair bit further before stabilizing and still be considered a successful Marvel ongoing.

[Flightpath07]

"I may be off in my assessment on this but I think a major reason for the 10k drop by the end was the re-write to make it a mini."

I agree with mreeez. The sudden re-write (due to it being made a mini at the last possible moment) took a good creative team on a book they cared about, and caused them to have to put out something that was disjointed, with large holes in the plot. Any reader worth their salt could see that it wasn't coming together smoothly like it should have, and thus they gradually stopped buying it.

Hard to blame the creative team for that. Hard to blame the comic buyers for that, either. So, where exactly does the blame lie, then? (Note: Rhetorical question)

DMK - great explanation fo the sales numbers. Thank you. Just more proof that Marvel hates AF and its fans! Even if we outsold every comic in comicbook history, they would still find an excuse not to give us what we want!

[Powersurge]

I guess I'll be the one to play Devil's Advocate, as I've long enjoyed a love-hate relationship with AF, and I have to say that Tom B is right. In AF's early appearances in UXN, the Incredible Hulk and Marvel Two-in-One, they SHINED. THAT was AF's Golden Age. And while there were some good stories in the Byrne run, his blueprint for the progression of the title was too expermental and so completely out of whack that it is amazing that the vol.1 lasted for as long as it did.

The Omega Flight arc was the ONLY reason I, a 13/14 year old, hero-worshipping Canadian boy, who was about as stoked as stoked could be for AF's very own title, ever made it passed issue 12.

And the sad thing is is that issue 12 planted the very seed of convulted lameness that ultimately came to define the title. It's seems to me that any attempt to bring AF back at this point would simply continue the same trend of lameness that began with Mac's death and resurrection/s, and pretty much defined vol.3 through-and-through.

While I really liked Oeming's mini, I think that it also missed the mark. I mean, vol.1 opened with the Great Beast. YaaWWWnnn. Oeming's Great Beast opener beat the hell out of Byrn'es mind you ... at least a hardcore AF fan was well-acquanited wit hteh Great Beasts by that point, and he didn't introduce and resolve all in the space of a single (albeit) giant sized issue, but, well, here's what I might have done ... off the top of my head ...

Canada's is NOT getting along with the States on the issue of the SHRA. As a couintry that has long had an SHRA of it's own in place, they see only too well that how the U.S. is going about it is wrong. Perhaps they even challenge the U.S. on the issue at the U.N. assembly?

The U.S. is not happy with Canada. Because not only are we refusing to support them, and even challenging them on moral grounds, but we are also a safehaven for anti-reg'ers. What is it that makes these Canucks think they can harbour American fugitives??? What's stopping "US" from just walking in, pie-facing the Canucks out of the way, and taking care of business???

What indeed!

So, Department H gets the go ahead to begin assembling a new team.

Not necesarily all that original in this area. There will be some new faces, there will be some old faces. There will be no miraculous resurrections or returns. And there will be no Yank wearing the Mapleleaf, Mr.Oeming :P But someone's got to. And it will be the actual Weapon Alpha battle-suit, not just it's skin. It might be someone convenient like a soldier or mountie, maybe even a idealistic politician, or it could be something more along the lines of Canada's best an brightest, as judge via academic and extra-ciricular records and portfolio ... scholar, athlete, patriot, social activist, etc.

But whatever the precise composition of AF, the stage is set for them to not only benefit from the guest appearance of the certain prolific anti-reg'ers, who would be central to the opening arc, as well as the pro-reg enforcers, but also to establish some cred in battle against established, recognizeable, and respected superpowered individuals.

I mean, come on, Canada and it's heores standing in opposition to pro-SHRA America, and in support of anti-SHRA America? When Iron Man was at the helm? And with all that has transpired since? IF AF and Canada survived ...

[Le Messor]

Is Oeming to blame for the yank in the suit thing, or Marvel editorial? Do we have a definitive answer?

Canada had super- registration long before the US. It'd be nice to see a country with a different approach, but it can't be Canada.

I liked the experimental, out-of-whack approach that opened V1. It's part of why Byrne's AF is still my favourite series after all these years.

- Le Messor
"There is only one barren spot on our whole island. Unfortunately, it's Mrs. Ho."
- Governor Ho, explaining why they're adopting North.

[Powersurge]

Well, each to their own, Le Messor. They certainly weren't bad stories in and of themselves. But I would for one, have made the opening, ahem, "story" a story ARC, covering a number of issues, that built up Tundra, made sure that the threat of Tundra was felt, before finally have AF win. As it was we got, "Here's Tundra! Tremble at his awesome might as he walks around in the middle of nowhere! Oh, and now here come's is Alpha Flight ... behold the defeat of Tundra." End of story. End of story. lol

And then of course, I would have taken my time, spaced the spotlights on individual members, and actually given the fans what the book promised .... TEAM stories, not a string of individual spotlights. And of course I wouldn't have killed off Mac ... wouldn't have used Diablo .... or a fat lady in pink ... or ... lol

Anyway, it's just an opinion. And considering that the first volume ran some 100+ issues perhaps there's more to yours than there is to mine, but I tell ya, no other team comic has ever spent it's first year as a non-team. One would think there is a reason why. :)

[Le Messor]

Power,
I see what you're saying; and while I don't think there's anything wrong with it, I do think there's a few things you're not taking into account.
1) This was the 80's. Arc stories weren't such a big thing back then. I think it was Babylon 5 that popularised them for genre fiction, but I don't know for sure, so don't quote me on that.

I think it was Babylon 5 that popularised them for genre fiction...
D'oh!

2) Byrne did do an arc story over the first dozen issues; the Omega Flight / Death of Guardian storyline (please tell me I don't need spoiler space for that!).

3) Issue 1 was set 'several months in the past', in order to explain why Alpha was disbanded by the government in Uncanny X-Men #140, then together (but not a government team) in Marvel Two-In One #83. Whatever story he told had to be 'big' enough to be issue 1, but still self-contained. (Which doesn't mean it couldn't start an arc, of course, but see my 2).)

In your defence, the Alpha Flight I'm talking about lasted 28 issues, not 130.

- Le Messor
"Had I known I'd live this long, I would've taken better care of myself."

[cmdrkoenig67]

Well, each to their own, Le Messor. They certainly weren't bad stories in and of themselves. But I would for one, have made the opening, ahem, "story" a story ARC, covering a number of issues, that built up Tundra, made sure that the threat of Tundra was felt, before finally have AF win. As it was we got, "Here's Tundra! Tremble at his awesome might as he walks around in the middle of nowhere! Oh, and now here come's is Alpha Flight ... behold the defeat of Tundra." End of story. End of story. lol

Series that began with a several-issue story arc were a rarity back then (whoops! Ninja'ed by Mik), it was a double-sized issue and it was meant to catch one up on what state the team was in, give more background on the characters and to get them back together.



And then of course, I would have taken my time, spaced the spotlights on individual members, and actually given the fans what the book promised .... TEAM stories, not a string of individual spotlights. And of course I wouldn't have killed off Mac ... wouldn't have used Diablo .... or a fat lady in pink ... or ... lol

Anyway, it's just an opinion. And considering that the first volume ran some 100+ issues perhaps there's more to yours than there is to mine, but I tell ya, no other team comic has ever spent it's first year as a non-team. One would think there is a reason why. :)

Powersurge, John Byrne did have a point to having the team scattered, you know?

I personally, feel the team being not always together gave the book a really unique feel, something we hardly ever see, even today. After Byrne left the book and the team became based in one spot (via Bill Mantlo and following writers)...To me, they became more like every other super group and a bit more uninteresting/predictable.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Power,
I see what you're saying; and while I don't think there's anything wrong with it, I do think there's a few things you're not taking into account.
1) This was the 80's. Arc stories weren't such a big thing back then. I think it was Babylon 5 that popularised them for genre fiction, but I don't know for sure, so don't quote me on that.

D'oh!

2) Byrne did do an arc story over the first dozen issues; the Omega Flight / Death of Guardian storyline (please tell me I don't need spoiler space for that!).

3) Issue 1 was set 'several months in the past', in order to explain why Alpha was disbanded by the government in Uncanny X-Men #140, then together (but not a government team) in Marvel Two-In One #83. Whatever story he told had to be 'big' enough to be issue 1, but still self-contained. (Which doesn't mean it couldn't start an arc, of course, but see my 2).)

In your defence, the Alpha Flight I'm talking about lasted 28 issues, not 130.

- Le Messor
"Had I known I'd live this long, I would've taken better care of myself."

Technically, one could say John Byrne began his later "Great Beast" story arc with the very first issue ( with the intro of Tundra, the first Great Beast we see (or second, actually...If one counts Sasquatch).

Dana

[Le Messor]

Technically, one could say John Byrne began his later "Great Beast" story arc with the very first issue ( with the intro of Tundra, the first Great Beast we see (or second, actually...If one counts Sasquatch).
Dana

True that.