A Reason For Alpha Flight

[Flightpath07]

There has been plenty of talk on this site lately (actually, for the last few years) that revolves around various discussions about what reason can we come up with for having an Alpha Flight team again, a reason that would be good enough to (a) cause Marvel to believe it would sell as a series, and (b) make sense in that Marvel seems to feel that previous AFs have lost readers due to something new being needed.

Many people here have suggested ideas. Some new ideas, some not-so-new.

Many of us believed that John Byrne had it right, or did it best, when it comes to AF. So, many times suggestions came up in regards to how JB wrote AF in the beginning, how they were a team made up of individuals who did not always get along, and showing that individual stories could be told in a team book.

There has also been talk about how AF needs to interact with the Marvel U on a regular basis, to attract attention and fans and keep them relevant.

And most people here agree that one of the things that makes AF Alpha Flight-y is that they are Canadians as opposed to Americans (who seem to have the vast majority of the superheroes).

Well, here is my idea...

Take John Byrne's original idea. Modernize it, and you have got an AF that is bold, exciting, and will sell.

By this, I mean that Alpha Flight should be a group of Canadian superheroes, working for the Canadian government, with two mandates; (a) protection of Canada from super-powered baddies, and (b) to bring in all of the Canadian government employees with super-powers who are working illegally in America. In other words, they have a mandate to bring back to Canada such people as Northstar, Aurora, and Wolverine, at any and all costs.

This, as you can imagine, means that AF will be a superhero team based in Canada, who, besides fighting bad guys and gals within their own borders, will quite often be throwing-down with recognizable superheroes and super-teams in the US of A. They may be good guys, but when they get a sniff of one of their own who have left to fight evil in the US, they spring into cross-border-action and try their damnest to capture and retrieve said persons.

Welcome to a great many great battles with superheroes! Welcome to a great many guest appearances in other titles! Welcome to sales!

Welcome back, Alpha Flight?

[Raja]

That is an extremely sensible approach. One that would work....but the problem comes down to this; Who would buy a superhero book about Canadians? Who would care about it? In the mind of Marvel as a company, they likely assume Alpha Flight has no market. People have to be encouraged to care about these characters, as you said, by exposure to them, but IMO it needs to be about the individual characters first, so people don't go "Oh that Canadian team, who cares?" The nationality in most cases should come later. It shouldn't matter at all, but it does.

[Mokole]

How about all the interactions such a proposal that bring with international teams? Big Hero Six, the Winter Guard, American teams; not a "World Tour" but working with and against teams around the world to do what's right; fight SHIELD about Apocalypse's safe houses; work with the Winter Guard against the Great Beasts; work with Big Hero Six against Kang's followers; work with the Avengers against the Badoon; destroy a time-travel device and tick off the Avengers,.....:cool:

[Flightpath07]

Mokole, you have picked up the spirit of the thing!

[Powersurge]

As I recently mentioned in another thread, there has over the past couple of years an window of oppurtunity to make Alpha Flight relevent by making Canada relevent within the context and wake of Civil War. Here it would have been Canada -- which has long had it's own SHRA and was morally opposed to the U.S.'s implamentation of it's own -- acting as a safehaven for anti-reg'ers, and having to deal with SHRA enforcers ... kind of a reversal of the classic Alpha Flight-Wolverine formula. This moral stance would of course have require the formation of a new Alpha Flight, and probably the reinstitution of the Gamma and Beat programs. There would have been plenty of Yank heroes to draw from to act as PR support for the early team, and lots of established heroes/villains for AF to establish it's cred against. And with all of this having led up to Siege, well, by the end of it Canada would either be the 51st State or have it's own cred well established, along with that of it's heroes.

As for the "international concept"; I like the idea not so much as the theme for an Alpha Flight title, but as the theme for an ongoing title, "Marvel International" or something, which would have a rotating spolight on different international Marvel hero-teams and maybe even solo heroes. Not one of those comics where there are five stories going on in any single issue, 'cause they suck and for one can't be bothered with them. Or even single issue stories. They might be, but they might also be multi-issue stories, but ulitmately, after say 4 issues max, the spolight would shift over onto some other team ... and undoubtedly eventually make it's way back to our favourite.

[Flightpath07]

I am thinking a bad-arse Alpha squad. Regardless of who you want on it, I am thinking of one that takes no prisoners and only asks questions after they kick butt.
Wild Child, of course, would be a great team member, with his ferocious savagery (time to bring him back from the dead!). Talisman would also be good, very powerful.

In this version of AF, think US Agent rather than Captain America, or think Thunderbolts rather than Avengers. Big, bad, powerful, and totally committed to doing what their government asks of them. One part Alpha Flight, one part Ultimate Alpha Flight.

[Dfense75]

IMHO I like everything except Alpha Flight hunting down other Canadian heroes for their government. Hunting down heroes who are Canadian "property" seems very un-heroic. I know its that very premise that introduced the team. But they where designed to be a X-Men foil. In the Alpha series we saw them evolve from that idea. Doesn't Northstar, Aurora, and Wolverine have every rite to work and live where they want. I don't know if dual citizenship was ever addressed for the 3 just mentioned. But if they moved their legally what grounds would Canada have. I love the international approach to the book. But it just doesn't sit well with me if my heroes blindly follow what their handlers tell them to do. If following these orders was a source of contention for the team than it could work for me.

[Flightpath07]

"If following these orders was a source of contention for the team than it could work for me. "

I could agree wityh at least some of the members of the team not always liking what they are asked to do. Mainly, this is a way to have them interact with the Marvel Universe as a whole. But the AF I am envisioning is more like the ones that originally showed up in X-Men, fighting heroes for control of Wolverine. Now, you have an AF that not only fights baddies, but heroes as well. This reminds me of the Avengers/Defenders wars of the 70s/80s. It used to be, that heroes did not always see eye to eye, so they fought. Much the same thing going on here.

[suzene]

IMHO I like everything except Alpha Flight hunting down other Canadian heroes for their government. Hunting down heroes who are Canadian "property" seems very un-heroic. I know its that very premise that introduced the team. But they where designed to be a X-Men foil. In the Alpha series we saw them evolve from that idea. Doesn't Northstar, Aurora, and Wolverine have every rite to work and live where they want. I don't know if dual citizenship was ever addressed for the 3 just mentioned. But if they moved their legally what grounds would Canada have. I love the international approach to the book. But it just doesn't sit well with me if my heroes blindly follow what their handlers tell them to do. If following these orders was a source of contention for the team than it could work for me.

I think Aurora's working in Canada with Kyle now anyway, but agreed on the dislike of previous Alpha Flight members being hunted down by a new roster. It's a bit too Dark Reign: Canada for my tastes. I also agree with Flightpath's two major points: the team needs to be Canadian while also maintaining a position of some relevance within the Marvel Universe -- you can't just park them in Canada, deal with events that only affect Canada, and expect most of the audience to give a hoot just because they used hang out with Wolverine.

If there was an Alpha Flight relaunch, something I'd like to see avoided is the "All New, All Different Alpha Flight" take. A team that was half comprised of new characters didn't translate to sales under Seagle. A team that was almost entirely newbies did even worse for Lobdell. Alpha Flight does not have so large a fanbase that any book bearing the title can afford to be "A Bunch Of Guys You've Never Heard Of, Guest-Starring Alpha Flight" and hope that people warm up to the new cast.

What would likely work best for an Alpha Flight book in terms of generating interest would be to get the band (or what's left of it) back together -- to go heavy on the old guard to get as many of the hardcore Alphans and X-Fans as possible interested. Sasquatch, Box, the Beaubier twins, Snowbird, and Talisman make up a good starting roster, Mar could possibly have grown into something useful and has ties to Atlantis, and if the writer's feeling exceptionally generous, Earthmover could be used as something other than a joke. There's a good mix of interpersonal tension there -- things should not be smooth between Talisman and Earthmover, especially if Elizabeth is put in the position of having to pick up where her father left off in mentoring him, everyone would just be waiting for Plodex Jr. to go evil, and Box and Snowbird have both recently lost people they're close to, but while Madison is grieving the death of his wife and lost opportunities, Narya is rediscovering the joys of mortal life. There's even something of an inversion of the old Sasquatch/Aurora/Northstar triangle to be played with, as the twins are getting along well nowadays while Sasquatch is just the ex-flame, failed scientist and team-leader, and generally the odd man out.

As for what the premise would be, I'd say aim high. The joke about MU Canada has always been that, between Dept.H and Weapon X, snowy, benevolent Canada has the most evil government ever. So have a new department come in and get the old team together specifically with the goal of taking on these shadowy, clandestine weaponization projects that keep sprouting up. They're Canada's mess and Canada is going to clean it up, by God! It fits in with the theme of Marvel's upcoming Heroic Age, there's a variety of stories that could be told within that overarching arc with room for guest-stars and team-ups, and even the possibility of getting outside of Canada, depending on where the antagonists have their hooks. More importantly, it pits the team up against a legitimate threat that the majority of the readers are familiar with and, in doing so, refutes the idea that Alpha Flight is best treated as a joke team.

[Le Messor]

The person I most agree with here is Suzene (obviously Dfense, too, but he... or she?... sorry, I've just realised I don't actually know... had less to say).

The 'hunting down all our expatriots' thing would make them look fascist - unheroic. If I wanted to read about unheroic superheroes, I'd look at v2 again, ever. Something I plan not to do.
The difference between hunting down Wolverine in Uncanny #120-121 and the suggestion here is that Wolverine was an AWOL soldier, with a lot of Canadian money invested in him. The twins and Jeffries are just people who happened to work for the government for a while. (AFAIK, Aurora is still in Canada, btw.)

The idea of making them more bad-ass just sounds like a return to the 90s era of comics - and nobody wants that (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/linkara/at4w/10191-cable01).

Suzene's idea of them taking down that kind of 'evil government conspiracy' thing, especially while working for the government, works much better for me.

- Le Messor
"I've just developed a proof that demonstrates that, where n>2, the equation (a^n) + (b^n) = c^n cannot be solved with integers. Unfortunately, my train is coming."
- Graffiti in a subway (re: Fermat's Last Theorem)

[Dfense75]

Suzene nailed it. I think that could be a winning formula...and I am male :)

[Legerd]

I want to see AF go rogue. Not only do they not have ties to the government, they burn those bridges and don't look back. With Talisman leading the team, they take up a mission of some sort (bringing the old guard back from the dead, fighting a new Great Beast threat, or battling some new mystical menace) which takes them around (and off) the globe and into conflict with various heroes, teams and evil organizations. They don't have the luxury to play fair, and act like "nice, polite Canadians", rather the mission forces them to do things that make it appear they've gone bad.
They gather what Alphans are still around, either repowering the mutant members that had lost their powers, or maybe providing a Guardian-style suit to them (Windshear, I'm looking at you). This, of course, would bring them up against the X-men as well as anyone enforcing the SHRA in the US. Along the way other heroes can join them (Dr. Strange isn't up to anything is he?) to help, some staying some not, some falling along the wayside as they go. They can show up in Latveria to either stop Dr. Doom or team up with him. Later they go to Wakanda to seek out BP's help. Afterward they head to England and end up going against Captain Britain who doesn't realize AF is actually on a heroic mission.
I want to see the status quo kinda shaken up as far as what everyone thinks a "typical" AF story is. Very tense stories filled with lots of character building, driven by an over-arcing plot that forces the heroes to push beyond the boundaries they have.

[Flightpath07]

"What would likely work best for an Alpha Flight book in terms of generating interest would be to get the band (or what's left of it) back together -- to go heavy on the old guard to get as many of the hardcore Alphans and X-Fans as possible interested. Sasquatch, Box, the Beaubier twins, Snowbird, and Talisman make up a good starting roster, Mar could possibly have grown into something useful and has ties to Atlantis, and if the writer's feeling exceptionally generous, Earthmover could be used as something other than a joke. There's a good mix of interpersonal tension there -- things should not be smooth between Talisman and Earthmover, especially if Elizabeth is put in the position of having to pick up where her father left off in mentoring him, everyone would just be waiting for Plodex Jr. to go evil, and Box and Snowbird have both recently lost people they're close to, but while Madison is grieving the death of his wife and lost opportunities, Narya is rediscovering the joys of mortal life. There's even something of an inversion of the old Sasquatch/Aurora/Northstar triangle to be played with, as the twins are getting along well nowadays while Sasquatch is just the ex-flame, failed scientist and team-leader, and generally the odd man out.

As for what the premise would be, I'd say aim high. The joke about MU Canada has always been that, between Dept.H and Weapon X, snowy, benevolent Canada has the most evil government ever. So have a new department come in and get the old team together specifically with the goal of taking on these shadowy, clandestine weaponization projects that keep sprouting up."

It's a good thought(s) , but here is my problem with the above; Who, outside of current Alpha Flight fans, would care about any of this stuff?

Unfortunately, the answer is, Nobody.

And that is why we do not have an Alpha Flight.

Again, the "putting them at odds with other super teams, for reasons that not only make sense but also go back to the original idea behind the team" is what I think would work.

You take this new team (by new, I mean badass, take charge, no nonsense guys and gals, some brand new and some established) and you throw them into the X-books, trying to regain Wolverine and Jeffries and Northstar. They come in like thunder (the rumbling noise, not the horse from volume 3), bash some heads, kick arse all over the place, and get narrowly defeated. Heck, at some point, have them drag a Jeffries back to Canada, and have the X-Men come along and invade Canada to take him back; that'd be cool, wouldn't it?

The idea is, introduce them in other books, Make people like them, respect them, care about them, be fascinated by them.

Now, throw them into an Avengers story or two, have them team up to fight off some big menaces. Have them be a little "cold" towards the Avengers, a little untrusting becuz they are Canada's team representing Canada and they won't take no crud from nobody. Have them save the day, using strength and intelligence - but also show that they do not trust heroes outside of Canada's borders.

Now, you have them as bad guys, "foils" if you will. You also have them as good guys, totally able to save the day. Willing to team up with others when it is necessary. You have now shown them to be ruthless, nasty, untrusting, and very very powerful and unpredictable.

Now, you give them a special of their own, or a mini-series. Keep the guest appearances up, and keep them full of attitude and raw power.

Now, now you have the recipe for a successful comic series. A series called Alpha Flight.

[Le Messor]

It's a good thought(s) , but here is my problem with the above; Who, outside of current Alpha Flight fans, would care about any of this stuff?
Unfortunately, the answer is, Nobody.

I think you'd be surprised. I get the impression a lot of people who aren't current fans do like and care about Alpha Flight, they just haven't seen it since 1985. (Or the year Byrne quit, whichever is closer.) When I hear comics fans mention them it's with respect and care at least as often (if not more) as with disdain.


You take this new team (by new, I mean badass, take charge, no nonsense guys and gals, some brand new and some established)

Please watch the video at this link. (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/linkara/at4w/10191-cable01) (Yes, the same one I linked to above.)
You might understand better my reaction to what you're saying.


They come in like thunder

Do you mean the ho-
(the rumbling noise, not the horse from volume 3)

Way to preempt my bad puns, dude. :sad:


The idea is, introduce them in other books, Make people like them, respect them, care about them, be fascinated by them.

The problem is, I think everything you're suggesting would acheive the exact opposite of that. Nobody's going to like the team of 'good guys' who keeps coming in just to lay the smack down on 'their' team. They'd have to keep losing (as you mention), and the fans are not going to respect that. The people you describe are ruthless, nasty, cold, bad-ass, and untrusting; and that's not the way to get people to care about them. (Again we're in the 90s; see the link). Yet another group trying to look bad-ass (and failing, because they have to keep losing) would be dull, dull, dull! rather than fascinating. Trying to look bad-ass and losing all the time is not the way to gain respect. Fighting established teams and winning is not the way to fans' hearts - and by definition, this will be the fans of those teams.
What I care about - and I think a lot of people do - is human stories; stories about people being people, not just a bunch of tough guys hitting each other.


Heck, at some point, have them drag Jeffries back to Canada, and have the X-Men come along and invade Canada to take him back; that'd be cool, wouldn't it?

No, sir, it would not. Not to me.


have them team up to fight off some big menaces.

Yes! This part-this is a much better answer. Have them team up. Have them help the other teams, even prove themselves against them - by fighting with them, not against them. Have them even prove themselves better at some things than those teams; the Avengers face a mystical menace just like Alpha have been doing all this time - so they need Alpha's expertise to help them. Alpha come in and are helpful to them, and get along (though certain members have friction with certain others; I don't have anyone specific in mind). This will gain respect, and like, and could be handled fascinatingly.

- Le Messor
Groucho: "Do you follow me?"
Margaret Dumont: "Yes!"
Groucho: Well, you better stop following me, or I'll have you arrested."
~ A Night at the Opera

[Flightpath07]

Le Messor, nobody here is saying that a bad-ass character has to have little or no characterization behind them. Perhaps AF could be the next wave of really good characters, by actually making tough characters who have real personalities and are real characters beyond their punching other peoples' lights out!

Likewise, nobody here is suggesting that they need to lose all their fights. Cuz, that would make them perennial losers, the brunt of jokes, like...oh, I dunno...maybe like Alpha Flight has been for quite some time?

I also do not believe in putting round pegs in square holes (who digs a square hole, anyways!?). No Sasquatch on this team, not the right personality. Likewise, no Talisman or Snowbird. i actually beleive that leaving these three OFF of the team, creates interesting future moments for when you do see one of these three characters; Why are they not on the team? Do they have moral objections? Were they never asked to participate? What do they think of this team? How will they interact?

For me, i'd make this team be led by a re-powered Windshear (hard-air molecule formation and control), his teammates being Wyre (genetically altered assassin with enhanced strength and speed and reflexes, plus uses guns and has central-nervous-system-bonded wires that come out of him), a re-animated Wild Child in his "bad-boy pierced mode" (nasty savage with little to no morals), Murmur (spicy French woman with a 'tude who controls people psionically through touch), Yukon Jack (demi-god, very powerful, very moody), Earthmover (powerful but little-trained mystic with Omega level powers), and Daisy, as it never actually been established that she wasn't a Canadian citizen originally (super strength).

[Ahab]

No Sasquatch on this team, not the right personality. Likewise, no Talisman or Snowbird.

For me, i'd make this team be led by a re-powered Windshear (hard-air molecule formation and control), his teammates being Wyre (genetically altered assassin with enhanced strength and speed and reflexes, plus uses guns and has central-nervous-system-bonded wires that come out of him), a re-animated Wild Child in his "bad-boy pierced mode" (nasty savage with little to no morals), Murmur (spicy French woman with a 'tude who controls people psionically through touch), Yukon Jack (demi-god, very powerful, very moody), Earthmover (powerful but little-trained mystic with Omega level powers), and Daisy, as it never actually been established that she wasn't a Canadian citizen originally (super strength).

So basically, no classic Alpha Flight characters.
No thanks.

(Don't take this too seriously. I woul read it, but there's just been too many iterarions out there without the characters we all fell in love with...Like the past volumes, I would be constantly hoping/wondering when an old friend would be showing up...)

[Le Messor]

Flightpath - you're right, of course. There's no reason a bad-ass has to have little or no characterisation. I wasn't thinking (that sounds sarcastic, but it isn't - I really wasn't thinking).
That said, it still sounds to me like the point of what you're saying is to have bad-ass characters - and that rarely translates to characterisation; it's usually done to be cool, rather than good. Think Poochie.
A good creative team, of course, could make it good.

Even then, though, it wouldn't be characterisation I'd enjoy. The characters I enjoy reading about are ones I relate to - and that isn't characters who are always trying to be bad-ass. Even if they're well-written. I hate it when the 'heroes' in my fiction are nasty people, which you're saying you want. I've never liked that in anything I've read or watched.
Bad-ass characters can be enjoyable, of course (Angel springs to mind), but not my preference. Alpha Flight has never been about that, and something called Alpha Flight that was about being bad-ass would frustrate me.

As to losing all the time? If they're going up against heroes, heroes with their own books, they would either have to lose most or all of the time (because they're guesting in other people's books, and everybody's the best in their own books), or be seen taking out somebody else's favourite team. Then they'll be those nasty people who <fanboy>'unrealistically took out my team when my team is much better. I hope somebody got fired for that blunder!'. </fanboy>* Either way, they won't win.

They'd have to treat the other teams they meet with respect - it's one of those things you have to give it if you want to get it - and the team you're describing wouldn't do that. Other teams' fans wouldn't respect them for that, and I wouldn't respect them for that.

Like Ahab, I'd not be interested in this team that has no classic characters - it'd the first comic with that title that didn't even have a version of Sasquatch in #1. (Didn't you say before you did want Talisman?)
The team you've put together has nobody I could relate to (maybe Windshear). A book which is about being tough and cool and...
I'd read it, of course; it's called Alpha Flight and I'd feel duty-bound, but it'd be so not Alpha Flight, I'd whine incessantly, and I can't see myself enjoying it.

There's reasons why John Byrne's Alpha Flight is my favourite comic book, and it doesn't sound like a single one of those reasons would be in the title you describe. And I can seriously imagine a lot of comics readers being cynical and saying 'Oh, look, it's little Alpha Flight, that team that was such a joke, trying to be bad-ass'.

Who digs a square hole? Only the grave digger.

* Yeah, as if I can turn off my fanboy mode...

- Le Messor
"Great, now I'm gonna be stuck with serious thoughts all day."
~ Cordelia

[AKexpress]

Hello There. Glad to see the site back up! Thought I'd stop lurking and join the other AF die-hards in the world. :-)

I would LOVE to see an Alpha Flight title on the shelves, but it would be a miracle, I think. If it was up to me I'd call it something other than Alpha Flight in the beginning. That sounds preposterous, but I think if you brought Talisman, Sasquatch, Jeffries together, and then added Marrina (back from the supposed dead), Snowbird and Wolverine in subsequent story arcs, you'd have something with good traction. Wolvie's alittle overused, and often more a marketing angle, but he truly does fit with that group of friends... at least for couple of adventures.

Add a few new members to boost the dynamic: Beta Ray Bill is a fav of mine (not to mention a true MU powerhouse). Another character I'd campaign hard for is a woman named Linnea. She's been in one comic book, Avengers 212 way, way back in the 80's, and she could be a hidden gem, both for her abilities and personality.

Lifelong friends coming together, dealing with the grief and survivor's guilt, reaffirming their desire to guard their home from evil forces, would be my angle in resurrecting AF. Then, I'd have the Canadian Government decide to create "Alpha Flight", with 5 or 6 completely new (and hopefully compelling characters). I would have Liz and crew actually LIKE the Alphans, with Walt and Madi doing some consulting work. Then you could have crossovers, but the two teams would have different feels and different M.O.s.

One of the problems Alpha Flight has had is it's always been "that Canadian Team". The World Tour didn't even come close to changing that, in fact, in my opinion, it made it worse. I'd have them just simply BE a powerful group of heroes and I'd establish that by having adventures offworld (in space and in other dimensions)... and I'd have them win... alot.

The Avengers have operated out of NYC but they don't have such a confined impression. Any relaunch of AF, or spinoffs, should follow that model, as far as I'm concerned.

In any case, thanks for letting me ramble!

AK

[cmdrkoenig67]

I truthfully don't see a problem with Alpha Flight being "That Canadian team"...I think only Marvel editorial has that prejudice, fans don't seem to care as long as the stories and art are good. Do comic-readers get hung up on the fact that most of the Excalibur team is British? Do fans get bent out of shape by the Winter Guard being from Russia or do they just enjoy seeing them make an appearance now and then?

I don't get why Marvel sees Alpha Flight being "That Canadian team" as such a series-killer...It's Marvel itself whom is to blame for every volumes' failure or cancellation. Why the constant need to reinvent the wheel?

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

If we're talking of rebuilding Alpha Flight from the ground up, IMHO it won't work without a few familiar faces (original/original-ish surviving members, Like Sassy, Talisman, Snowbird, Aurora and/or Northstar)...They don't all have to be used as active team members, either (Elizabeth, Narya, Madison, etc...One or more could be possibly only be reserve members, etc.)...

There is also a wealth of other Canadian/Canadian-ish characters introduced in various volumes of AF (including the now Canadian Beta Ray Bill) and in other Marvel books that could be mined for membership or guest appearances....

There could always be another Nemesis (although, maybe not right now with a Marvel series titled that)
Deadpool (yeah, I know...Nobody wants him on their team...LOL!)
Albert (genius Wolverine robot) and Elsie Dee (who were dwelling in Canada for quite a while)
X-23 (sort-of Canadian, by way of her clone-daddy?)
Jack Frost (sort of dwelling in Canada, but not by his choice...Unless of course, he really was born in the Canadian arctic)
Maverick (not Canadian, but spent a lot of time there as a member of the Weapon X program and visited during Wolverine's and his own series)
Night Raven (Canadian vigilante, may be dead?)
Weapon: P.R.I.M.E. (even though, I hate them...Bleh)

Even some of the most obscure...

The Living Totem (Doc Samsom mini)
Lynx (intro-ed in Marvel Comics Presents, volume 1/1983)
Avery Connor (Elektra and Wolverine: The Redeemer mini)

Etc...
Etc...

[AKexpress]

Dana: "I don't get why Marvel sees Alpha Flight being "That Canadian team" as such a series-killer...It's Marvel itself whom is to blame for every volumes' failure or cancellation. Why the constant need to reinvent the wheel?"

Well, it's not fair, but Alpha Flight has the stigma of Box Office Poison. Not to us, but to casual Marvel Universe readers. In my opinion, the first step in getting it back up and running is recognizing that.

How is it Marvel's fault, when volume 1 lasted 130+ issues counting Annuals/Specials, and the title was then relaunched 2 more times?

Compare AF to the Avengers. Some of the worst comics I've ever read have been certain Avengers arcs... the writing was flat, the art was bland, the characters weren't interesting. But the Avengers don't have that "flop" stigma because it's also produced, by far, some of the best work I've ever seen (same pattern with the X-Men and Fantastic Four). Alpha Flight has had both ends of the spectrum, as well, but it IS seen more negatively. Why? I think it's because it's made ITSELF that sad sack underdog. "We're C-League but we're lovable because we have a unique niche, being 'that Canadian team'. "

The Avengers market themselves as "Earth's Mightiest Heroes", and don't think twice about going toe to toe with Galactus. Alpha Flight, on the otherhand, always seemed relieved just being mentioned by the MU upperclassmen.

So, if Alpha Flight is EVER going to resurface, it has to completely ignore certain elements in order to erase the stigma. As a fan, realize that you have to make compromises. Let the wheel be reinvented, otherwise, keep lamenting, year after year, that Alpha Flight is dead.

Regards,
AK

[AKexpress]

Dana: "I truthfully don't see a problem with Alpha Flight being "That Canadian team"...I think only Marvel editorial has that prejudice, fans don't seem to care as long as the stories and art are good. Do comic-readers get hung up on the fact that most of the Excalibur team is British? Do fans get bent out of shape by the Winter Guard being from Russia or do they just enjoy seeing them make an appearance now and then?"

I think the problem with being "that Canadian team" is they seemed to have CONFINED themselves to that corner. If done right, they'd be more diverse and wide reaching in their setting, story to story. If they have to go to JUPITER to stop a threat to Earth then off they go.

We can have the best of both worlds. Were they to establish themselves as Canadian based yet far ranging, then the casual reader might be more open-minded... while at the same time the characters of the Marvel Universe would know that to venture into Canada puts them on well guarded turf. Because, as far as I'm concerned, it's not how strictly the enforcers stay in their neighborhood that worries me, it's being caught there when they get back from whatever butt-stomping they've done elsewhere.

AK

[AKexpress]

Dana: "If we're talking of rebuilding Alpha Flight from the ground up, IMHO it won't work without a few familiar faces (original/original-ish surviving members, Like Sassy, Talisman, Snowbird, Aurora and/or Northstar)...They don't all have to be used as active team members, either (Elizabeth, Narya, Madison, etc...One or more could be possibly only be reserve members, etc.)..."

I agree. There are a few characters I'd steer clear of, but a team with Talisman as it's leader, surrounded by Sasquatch, Jeffries, Snowbird, Marrina (not dead), Northstar and Aurora all making appearances is one I'd like to see.

The reason I put Elizabeth at the center of the team is, she gives them a non Department H starting point. Based on Sarcee land, her commune with the spirits gives her the needed intel on threats arising throughout the territories they're defending. Coupled with Walt and Jeffires as scientific thinkers & engineers they're even more open to recognizing trouble as it rears it's head.

As their antagonists I'd stay away from the Master, the Great Beasts, the Plodex, Department H... at least until the wheel has been properly reinvented and casual readers forget that they're not supposed to respect "Alpha Flight". Create some new nasties who actually are threats, and sprinkle in established powerful characters who then get stung by this new group of heroes.

Blasphemously Yours,
AK

[Mokole]

It would and should have a few familiar faces, but it is SO easy to come up with workable concepts:

- AF being the team that does what needs to be done, such as destroying WMDs even in SHIELD's control, destroying Pandora's Box before it's opened. The good guys everyone treats as bad guys

- young adults who see the need for AF and have the ability to step in but don't, then one day some 'real' heroes overstep their bounds and death results. The three see what they must do and restart AF, with one as Guardian, the dead one Nemesis, one a Windshear-based weapon costume, and Sasquatch et al to guide them

- an alternate universe team that crashes into ours, having to be heroes in our world with no knowledge of the rules here, as their Earth operated on a completely different level, and looked at suspiciously by the Avengers et al because they don't 'act right', not evil or violent but look and act different in how they approach and solve problems

- a group of villains takes over the AF role but are thwarted by Sasquatch et al before they can truly achieve their goals; the Master is back

- Dreamqueen creates and alternate timeline to give her access to our dimension but to do so she recreates AF; new adventures that vary with the old ensue

Exactly how many unique hooks are there, anyway?? Besides the internationalized AF or the AF that works with other teams worldwide, or the team that fights the 'bad' heroes who just kill (Wolverine, Deadpool, that idiot Punisher...).

It ain't that hard.

[mos_def]

Its been awhile since Ive been on the boards but did ALpha Flight win the poll for which title you want back on the Quesada board?

[cmdrkoenig67]

Dana: "I truthfully don't see a problem with Alpha Flight being "That Canadian team"...I think only Marvel editorial has that prejudice, fans don't seem to care as long as the stories and art are good. Do comic-readers get hung up on the fact that most of the Excalibur team is British? Do fans get bent out of shape by the Winter Guard being from Russia or do they just enjoy seeing them make an appearance now and then?"

I think the problem with being "that Canadian team" is they seemed to have CONFINED themselves to that corner. If done right, they'd be more diverse and wide reaching in their setting, story to story. If they have to go to JUPITER to stop a threat to Earth then off they go.

During volume 1, Alpha went into space on more than one occasion, hopped to other dimensions, even traveled to other countries for diplomatic reasons...I don't see them as being confined to Canada, at all.



We can have the best of both worlds. Were they to establish themselves as Canadian based yet far ranging, then the casual reader might be more open-minded... while at the same time the characters of the Marvel Universe would know that to venture into Canada puts them on well guarded turf. Because, as far as I'm concerned, it's not how strictly the enforcers stay in their neighborhood that worries me, it's being caught there when they get back from whatever butt-stomping they've done elsewhere.

AK

[cmdrkoenig67]

Its been awhile since Ive been on the boards but did ALpha Flight win the poll for which title you want back on the Quesada board?

Yes they did, MD.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Dana: "I don't get why Marvel sees Alpha Flight being "That Canadian team" as such a series-killer...It's Marvel itself whom is to blame for every volumes' failure or cancellation. Why the constant need to reinvent the wheel?"

Well, it's not fair, but Alpha Flight has the stigma of Box Office Poison. Not to us, but to casual Marvel Universe readers. In my opinion, the first step in getting it back up and running is recognizing that.

How is it Marvel's fault, when volume 1 lasted 130+ issues counting Annuals/Specials, and the title was then relaunched 2 more times?

Perhaps I should have more clear, I meant current Marvel of the past 15 or so years...And of course it's their fault...They haven't used the right approach, their most recent screw up was Omega Flight...Marvel execs sabotaged that series before it came out.



Compare AF to the Avengers. Some of the worst comics I've ever read have been certain Avengers arcs... the writing was flat, the art was bland, the characters weren't interesting. But the Avengers don't have that "flop" stigma because it's also produced, by far, some of the best work I've ever seen (same pattern with the X-Men and Fantastic Four). Alpha Flight has had both ends of the spectrum, as well, but it IS seen more negatively. Why? I think it's because it's made ITSELF that sad sack underdog. "We're C-League but we're lovable because we have a unique niche, being 'that Canadian team'. "

The Avengers market themselves as "Earth's Mightiest Heroes", and don't think twice about going toe to toe with Galactus. Alpha Flight, on the otherhand, always seemed relieved just being mentioned by the MU upperclassmen.

Alpha has fought Galactus.


So, if Alpha Flight is EVER going to resurface, it has to completely ignore certain elements in order to erase the stigma. As a fan, realize that you have to make compromises. Let the wheel be reinvented, otherwise, keep lamenting, year after year, that Alpha Flight is dead.

Regards,
AK

What does one ignore and what does one use? Byrne's drama-ridden, in-fighting, non-team (which seemed to sell the best)? The government-directed (or in the case of volume 2, government-controlled) team? Lobdell's "All New, All Different with bad comedy" approach (All New and All Different hasn't really worked for any team, except the New X-Men relaunch in the Seventies)?

I guess I shall have to keep lamenting their loss, since Marvel keeps not getting it right.

Dana

[mos_def]

I think people have to raise the threat level of the people Alpha FLight fights against. I always believed the Master got more recognition when he fought H4H or the Avengers. Have someting that happens in Alpha Flight affect its southern neighbors. Pink Pearl can only get you so many readers. Some people may not like vol2 but at least they took a chance at going into a level which only us Alpha fans knew existed and they ran with it. Vol3 was a joke and OF was nothing deep.

[humanracin]

Marvel have tried to "revamp" AF at least three times by introducing "new" characters in the past with little success.
That is because the core AF fans want the original and best team back together. Most of them are still alive!
Northstar, Aurora, Sasquach, Box, Talisman, Snowbird...
Classic team revamps are selling very well at Marvel because it is what the REAL FANS want, just look at NEW MUTANTS.

[cmdrkoenig67]

What I really don't get, is that Alpha Flight desperately has to have a unique hook for Marvel to relaunch it....Why? Why not a book with a great creative team that wants to do it, with a familiar line-up of heroes and some familiar villains (I'm sure any new writer and artist team would want to throw in something new also...I know I would)?

How many X-books are out there, with all basically the same premise (a team of mutants who are hated and feared by their fellow humans and who fight against evil mutant and evil human alike)? How many Avengers books are there now? It seems insane to me for Marvel to put so many books out that are all so similar to each other, but not give a chance to a book that just might be different enough to stand out and have the very unique-ness they claim they want in a book.

Another thing I'm wondering about is this....Won't Marvel eventually lose the rights to the name Alpha Flight, if they don't use it? They lost the rights to use the name Champions for a team (they didn't use the name for many years, then another company used the name for their team of super beings and now Marvel can't use it)...Couldn't the same happen with Alpha?

Dana

[AKexpress]

During volume 1, Alpha went into space on more than one occasion, hopped to other dimensions, even traveled to other countries for diplomatic reasons...I don't see them as being confined to Canada, at all.

So, you don't believe that casual MU readers have a misconception about Alpha Flight?

[AKexpress]

Alpha has fought Galactus.

100 issues into their run, teamed up with the Avengers, they were finally put in the same room as the World Devourer. They fought Loki too... alongside the X-Men. Both were terrific stories.

Too few, and too far between.

I just think that the creators worked the underdog angle to the detriment of their overall reputation.

[AKexpress]

Perhaps I should have more clear, I meant current Marvel of the past 15 or so years...And of course it's their fault...They haven't used the right approach, their most recent screw up was Omega Flight...Marvel execs sabotaged that series before it came out.

"Sabotage" is such an ugly word :-)
Marvel wants to make a profit off every title it publishes. Right or wrong, they didn't have confidence in the longterm profitability of OF and so they changed it to a mini-series. I agree that the drop in sales shouldn't be seen as a strike against the book. Issue #1's sales figures is the evidence that people are interested!

My point is, right or wrong, Alpha Flight has a stigma attached to it, after all these years, as a lovable loser. And that is taken into account when Marvel is drafting their year's strategy, and considering the products it's offering.

How do we remove that stigma? How does a person pitch Alpha Flight so that any misconception is eliminated?

I think that 1) one has to make certain that any misconception isn't, in actuality, kinda true... which means we have to be honest with ourselves, and 2) if that's the case, then whatever it is that's hurt the title's reputation, that facet has to go away, never to return.

Dana, you said, "What does one ignore and what does one use? Byrne's drama-ridden, in-fighting, non-team (which seemed to sell the best)? The government-directed (or in the case of volume 2, government-controlled) team? Lobdell's "All New, All Different with bad comedy" approach (All New and All Different hasn't really worked for any team, except the New X-Men relaunch in the Seventies)?"

That's it in a nutshell, right there.
My own personal thoughts are, you keep Talisman, Sasquatch, Jeffries, Snowbird, Marrina as the core of a family (moreso than a formal team) operating out of Canada, and you sprinkle in Northstar, Aurora, Wolverine as supporting cast, as well as the Great Beasts as a threat from time to time. Everything else from Alpha Flight's catelogue you put away. No Department H, no Master, no Plodex, no matching uniforms, no commentary on being "Canada's team", absolutely no resurrections of Mac, Heather, Eugene, Michael, Zha Zha or Major.

If you disagree with me, and believe that there's no stigma (right or wrong), then what the hell... resurrect them all, Launch Alpha Flight volume 4, fight the Master while wrangling with Department H in issue #1 and keep watching the monthly sales figures with eagerness.

Otherwise, the decisionmakers at Marvel see things differently. Why? And how can we help change that?

[AKexpress]

What I really don't get, is that Alpha Flight desperately has to have a unique hook for Marvel to relaunch it....Why? Why not a book with a great creative team that wants to do it, with a familiar line-up of heroes and some familiar villains (I'm sure any new writer and artist team would want to throw in something new also...I know I would)?

Amen!

[AKexpress]

Another thing I'm wondering about is this....Won't Marvel eventually lose the rights to the name Alpha Flight, if they don't use it? They lost the rights to use the name Champions for a team (they didn't use the name for many years, then another company used the name for their team of super beings and now Marvel can't use it)...Couldn't the same happen with Alpha?

I'm not sure about that. I thought Marvel was using the name Champions for one of the Avengers: Initiative teams. Or maybe that's how it came up, they wanted to but couldn't...

[Le Messor]

They can use Champions inside but not on the cover (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/01/28/comic-book-legends-revealed-245/).

As to the question of the day - what does Alpha Flight need in order to make it as a series?

I still think the approach that got me reading comics in the first place, the approach that has been the single best-selling series of Alpha so far.
We can't get Byrne back (and if we could, we couldn't get 1984 Byrne back), but wouldn't an Alpha Flight Forever title be great?
Well, I think so anyway.

Byrne's approach worked; iconic costumes, a group of characters people could relate to and care about, time taken to 'get to know' the characters, good writing / art which doesn't alienate the reader...
He gave Alpha Flight lives outside of superheroing (one of the causes and results of the scattershot approach), he developed them as people - and gave us character-driven stories to boot. (There were disadvantages to that in a comic, of course).

He didn't try to copy what everyone else was doing, he wrote good stories on his own terms. I liked that half of them were mystical in nature, and didn't come off as exactly the same threat as last month, but let's say the origin of the powers was magic instead of mutation instead of genetics...

The tone (and the colouring!) were light without being cartoonish, realistic without forgetting that it's a superhero comic.

That's what I think we need; another approach like that.

- Le Messor
"Half the lies our opponents tell about us are not true."

[cmdrkoenig67]

Dana, you said, "What does one ignore and what does one use? Byrne's drama-ridden, in-fighting, non-team (which seemed to sell the best)? The government-directed (or in the case of volume 2, government-controlled) team? Lobdell's "All New, All Different with bad comedy" approach (All New and All Different hasn't really worked for any team, except the New X-Men relaunch in the Seventies)?"

That's it in a nutshell, right there.
My own personal thoughts are, you keep Talisman, Sasquatch, Jeffries, Snowbird, Marrina as the core of a family (moreso than a formal team) operating out of Canada, and you sprinkle in Northstar, Aurora, Wolverine as supporting cast, as well as the Great Beasts as a threat from time to time. Everything else from Alpha Flight's catelogue you put away. No Department H, no Master, no Plodex, no matching uniforms, no commentary on being "Canada's team", absolutely no resurrections of Mac, Heather, Eugene, Michael, Zha Zha or Major.

If you disagree with me, and believe that there's no stigma (right or wrong), then what the hell... resurrect them all, Launch Alpha Flight volume 4, fight the Master while wrangling with Department H in issue #1 and keep watching the monthly sales figures with eagerness.

Otherwise, the decisionmakers at Marvel see things differently. Why? And how can we help change that?

I don't totally agree with you AK, but we do agree on some points (as your "amen" in reply to me attests to in another of your posts).

I'm not a fan of excessive resurrections (as in Mac's case), but I do believe resurrections can be necessary (depending on the character, how it's done, etc...) to a series' success, especially if the character is to play a big part in the series' relaunch, in bringing the team back together or a major storyline.

As far as the casual MU reader who doesn't know Alpha, believes them to be a joke, etc...There are some folks who will never give Alpha a chance, nor will they change their views....We can't help that, nor can any writer/artist. I think finding a way to bring back older fans who abandoned the title, during all of the relaunches/cancellations would also be another good start to any new series. Rebuilding as much of the original fanbase as possible may be as important as creating new fans.

Dana

[Le Messor]

There are some folks who will never give Alpha a chance, nor will they change their views....We can't help that, nor can any writer/artist. I think finding a way to bring back older fans who abandoned the title, during all of the relaunches/cancellations would also be another good start to any new series.

I think a good way to start the new book is kind of how it started in the first place - in other series. Give them enough guest appearances to intrigue the readers of those series; and write them in a way that portrays them as interesting and sympathetic. (Note to prospective writers: the 'sym' part of that last word is very important.)

Get readers used to them before the series starts, rather than just throwing it out there and hoping people notice.

- Le Messor
"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted, and the trouble is I don’t know which half."
~ John Wanamaker

[AKexpress]

I don't totally agree with you AK, but we do agree on some points (as your "amen" in reply to me attests to in another of your posts).

I'm not a fan of excessive resurrections (as in Mac's case), but I do believe resurrections can be necessary (depending on the character, how it's done, etc...) to a series' success, especially if the character is to play a big part in the series' relaunch, in bringing the team back together or a major storyline.

As far as the casual MU reader who doesn't know Alpha, believes them to be a joke, etc...There are some folks who will never give Alpha a chance, nor will they change their views....We can't help that, nor can any writer/artist. I think finding a way to bring back older fans who abandoned the title, during all of the relaunches/cancellations would also be another good start to any new series. Rebuilding as much of the original fanbase as possible may be as important as creating new fans.

Dana

We agree on alot of things, and I didn't mean to come across as negative if I have.
The market that's most likely to become devoted to AF is the X-Men wing... and that's a large market. It would be nice to see them appear in Uncanny, etc, like Le Messor said, in a guest appearance or two... or twelve, and generate some interest.

The reason I'm not for resurrecting the characters who died vs. the Collective is that tragedy gives the survivors motivation and drama. Elizabeth lost her dad (rocky relationship and all), Jeffries lost his best friends, and Walt was actually there when it happened. I think I'd like a story that shows the emotional journey people really experience... overcoming grief with the help of close friends/family, and finding happiness again.

One thing, though, I love the Guardian suit! It's just about the greatest superhero costume ever conceived. Michael Pointer wearing it works for me. That "Omega" style suit he's been wearing is a real buzz-kill, though. Bring back the Maple Leaf, eh.

[cmdrkoenig67]

We agree on alot of things, and I didn't mean to come across as negative if I have.
The market that's most likely to become devoted to AF is the X-Men wing... and that's a large market. It would be nice to see them appear in Uncanny, etc, like Le Messor said, in a guest appearance or two... or twelve, and generate some interest.

The reason I'm not for resurrecting the characters who died vs. the Collective is that tragedy gives the survivors motivation and drama. Elizabeth lost her dad (rocky relationship and all), Jeffries lost his best friends, and Walt was actually there when it happened. I think I'd like a story that shows the emotional journey people really experience... overcoming grief with the help of close friends/family, and finding happiness again.

Technically, Liz also lost a sister in Heather, since Heather and her parents raised Liz after her mother died and Michael left to grieve (and eventually became Shaman). John Byrne killed Mac because his death would have the most impact on the team (and Byrne found him the most boring to write)...Unfortunately, that didn't stop writers from bringing Mac back again and again and again.



One thing, though, I love the Guardian suit! It's just about the greatest superhero costume ever conceived. Michael Pointer wearing it works for me. That "Omega" style suit he's been wearing is a real buzz-kill, though. Bring back the Maple Leaf, eh.

I despise Pointer, as some other Flight fans do...I do not want to see him return to Canada and/or don the maple leaf uniform ever again.

Dana

[Legerd]

I think we are all in agreement that the problems plaguing AF can be laid at the feet of Marvel writers, artists, editors, etc. The characters are fictional, they have no control over how they are written and drawn, so when people say they suck or are bad, Marvel should see that as a critique of their work and not a fault of the characters. Unfortunately, they seem to think it is the fault of the characters and have done everything to not use them in their own title. Own up Marvel.

I think resurrecting the originals would be the perfect "emotional journey" for each of the surviving AF members. Talisman and Earthmover seek to bring back Shaman; Jefferies wants to bring back Diamond Lil; Sasquatch and Snowbird (as the last remaining founding members) want to bring the whole team back. The story is about reviving Alpha Flight, both the dead members and the concept of the team, as well as watching the surviving members deal with the deaths of and the chance to resurrect their friends and family.
Guilt, loyalty, love, desperation, all these emotional motivators would drive the story, build the characters and would be the real draw for readers. Treat the characters as important rather than as tertiary, throw away ones, in a well written story and it won't matter what baggage came before.

If we're tossing new names for the team around, I've said it before: The North Guard. It's dynamic, describes what the team is all about and doesn't leave readers scratching their heads as to what it means.

[Powersurge]

I think there are alot of good points raised throughout this thread.

I won't bother to reiterate them all, but I'll say that guest appearances are a good place to start. And sticking with a proven formula instead of getting experimental would probably be a good idea too, argueably. But IMO, you can get experimental once you've established a team. And at that point your can also devote significant space to individual character developement ... even over several issues as opposed to just one issue.

There's no I in team. lol

Something's that I always thought were central to the AF idea ...

The Weapon Alpha battlesuit. I like Mac, he was easily my favourite Alphan, but he's dead and should remainng so ... PLEEEEEAAASSE!!!! Let his spirit rest! lol
But the battle-suit stays. As Heather well-demonstrated, anyone can climb into make it work. And both it and it's skin, together, are iconic. It is the Canadian equivalent of Captain America's shield ... or maybe even Thor's Hammer. Ye swear oaths upon this!

Mac's death and Heather's history of service add value to the suit ... like an ancient sword with a proud legacy.

Department H. Like Mac and Sasq. this has been one element of Marvel's Canadian mythos that has been in place since the beginning, ie. preAF vol.1. I'm not so sure if having AF as their lackeys would work, because, as mentioned in the negative, this would limit them in ways no other superteam is and force them to often in work in purely domestic situations ... or there'd be HUGE ramifications for Canada, politically speaking. But whatever the specifics of the AF/Department H relationship, I think Department H should exist.

A neat idea might be to have AF existing in a most informal relationship with the government, and at times contracting their services out to the government, but with Department H having access to a number of less supers, whether officially on the "pay roll", or informally or otherwise unwittingly acting on the Department's behalf.

I tend to envision Department H as government writ small, in which the people in charge are realtively well intentioned, or at least have cold logic on their side, but there are things that go on that the leaders aren't necessarily aware of and might not necessarily condon if they did. And of course, if and when they do find out about these things, maintianing the crediblity of the Department will be priority one, because the leaders believe that it is a necessity in the modern world.

This would be an interesting source of new superheroes, who might not be world stompers and whose activities are isolated to various geographical regions, some of whom might become rivals, friends, lovers, villains, etc. of AF.

In any event, Department H is as iconic within the context of Marvel's Canada mythos as the Mapleleafed battle-suit. It should stay, but defined in it's own right apart from AF, and vice versa.

Established characters, I agree, woud be key. No need for resurrections though. We still got Sasq, Northstar and Aurora, along with others folks seem to like. And like I said, anyone can wear Hudson's battlesuit. In fact, he can ultimately have a show down with Pointer, and kick his arse outta the Mapleleaf skin.

Villains however, AF has always been weak on villains, IMO. And the only times they fougt established Marvel villains, it was IMO incredibly cheesey, with the battle with Galactus being a prime example. So, it's not just the quality of villains. Which brings us aorund to my last point ...

Writing/plotting. All of the best ideas in the world will fail miserably if handled by a poor writer, even as otherwise bad ideas can turn out impressive if handled by a good writer.

Forget about getting Byrne back. Is Clairemont still around??? Better yet, can we get them BOTH? :)

[Phil]

How's about an Alpha Flight Forever mini by Byrne picking up from his last issue?

[Le Messor]

How's about an Alpha Flight Forever mini by Byrne picking up from his last issue?

That'd be really cool, if we could get him writing / drawing like he did back then.

- Le Messor
"Hang up and drive."

[AKexpress]

Technically, Liz also lost a sister in Heather, since Heather and her parents raised Liz after her mother died and Michael left to grieve (and eventually became Shaman). John Byrne killed Mac because his death would have the most impact on the team (and Byrne found him the most boring to write)...Unfortunately, that didn't stop writers from bringing Mac back again and again and again.

Good point Re: Liz and Heather... I always liked that dynamic.
As for resurrections, I'm almost always against them. The only situation in which I don't bristle is when the death is presumed. Like Marrina, for example. We're pretty sure she died but no confirmation was ever made. In fact, that used to be a comic book staple. The bad guy would go "Aaaarrrgh!", vanish under a pile of rumble, but alas, pop up 20 issues later having escaped death.

I just like the impact a beloved character's death has in the fictional universe. Once that gets watered down... cliche even, we fans ultimately get deprived of something.

Mac's death in issue 12 was BRILLIANT. WHAT THE HELL WAS JOHN BYRNE THINKING?!? :-) It was so shocking, so genius that it lapped itself, landing on the "insane" peg on the board. To this day I love it and hate it equally.


I despise Pointer, as some other Flight fans do...I do not want to see him return to Canada and/or don the maple leaf uniform ever again.

Fair enough :-)

[AKexpress]

The Weapon Alpha battlesuit. I like Mac, he was easily my favourite Alphan, but he's dead and should remainng so ... PLEEEEEAAASSE!!!! Let his spirit rest! lol
But the battle-suit stays. As Heather well-demonstrated, anyone can climb into make it work. And both it and it's skin, together, are iconic. It is the Canadian equivalent of Captain America's shield ... or maybe even Thor's Hammer. Ye swear oaths upon this! Mac's death and Heather's history of service add value to the suit ... like an ancient sword with a proud legacy.

Department H. Like Mac and Sasq. this has been one element of Marvel's Canadian mythos that has been in place since the beginning, ie. preAF vol.1. I'm not so sure if having AF as their lackeys would work, because, as mentioned in the negative, this would limit them in ways no other superteam is and force them to often in work in purely domestic situations ... or there'd be HUGE ramifications for Canada, politically speaking. But whatever the specifics of the AF/Department H relationship, I think Department H should exist.

I'm alittle gun shy when it comes to Department H, but you're right. The minute it starts to rankle the team, though, I glaze over. In Omega Flight I dug Agent Brown. I'd like to see the Canadian Government operate a superhuman program, training them, developing strategies, even running a team itself. In fact, I'd think calling that team Alpha Flight, while Walt, Liz and co. call themselves "the North Guard" (nice suggestion, btw) or something to that effect, would be the way to go.

Just PLEASE keep politics/political "intrigue" out of the equation. Very little ejects me from a story faster.

[AKexpress]

How's about an Alpha Flight Forever mini by Byrne picking up from his last issue?

I would buy that so fast, and so often!

[mreeez]

I am probably in the minority but I do want to see Mac back as Guardian.

I'd really like to see a writer flesh out his character. We had him for pretty much only first 12 issues and his subsequent resurrections had him as half-cyborg or brainwashed so I'd like to see him developed a bit more.

[AKexpress]

I think resurrecting the originals would be the perfect "emotional journey" for each of the surviving AF members. Talisman and Earthmover seek to bring back Shaman; Jefferies wants to bring back Diamond Lil; Sasquatch and Snowbird (as the last remaining founding members) want to bring the whole team back. The story is about reviving Alpha Flight, both the dead members and the concept of the team, as well as watching the surviving members deal with the deaths of and the chance to resurrect their friends and family.
Guilt, loyalty, love, desperation, all these emotional motivators would drive the story, build the characters and would be the real draw for readers. Treat the characters as important rather than as tertiary, throw away ones, in a well written story and it won't matter what baggage came before.

I see your point. The resurrections of the past have left me a little leery. I'm in "wait and see" mode.

[AKexpress]

I am probably in the minority but I do want to see Mac back as Guardian.

I'd really like to see a writer flesh out his character. We had him for pretty much only first 12 issues and his subsequent resurrections had him as half-cyborg or brainwashed so I'd like to see him developed a bit more.

I'd favor a Classic Alpha Flight for that, telling stories that happened before the events of issue 12. But... if he was brought back to the present, I'd still be onboard. Not my preference, is all.

[suzene]

How's about an Alpha Flight Forever mini by Byrne picking up from his last issue?

I'd be a little wary to be honest. Firstly, I'd be wondering who was holding the gun to his head to get him working with Marvel again. ;) Byrne's run on Alpha Flight is still my favorite of his work, right up there with his Uncanny X-Men run, but he's never had much good to say about it. Paying work is paying work, of course, but I prefer creators to have some enthusiasm about the project they're tackling.

[ghostfly70]

Hello. The North Guard name was used by a canadian publisher in the late 80s, i believe, for a Canadian super team.I dont think theres anything wrong with the Alpha name or basic concept....except....just one thing...it flops every time.
I would enjoy a new Alpha series with a Doom Patrol quirkiness to every story. This is a team existing in the ginormous shadow of american super heroes. Their stories need to be distinct from what we usually find at the shops. With the teams entrenched mystical background I can see he mysteries of remote mysticism wreaking havoc that only Alpha Flight can deal with.
In a way, the weirdness of Bill Mantlos ideas could have been hugely successful in a better writers hands, and, perhaps, with a touch of decompression. I would mine his chunks of bizzare ideas, revisit them and say,,"ohhhh...the twins really ARE asgardian elves?" that kind of grant morrisson weirdness would work today I think.
The best coloring for an AF series today, that would reflect the airy cleanness of john byrnes work would be digital coloring like we currently see for that awesome geoff darrows conan cover. And the art should be clean, providing detail, but with better use of panel space, ala byrne, and not crowded splash pagey nonsense with gritty coloring.
Maybe someone like jim cheung would work great.

[Legerd]

Hello. The North Guard name was used by a canadian publisher in the late 80s, i believe, for a Canadian super team.I dont think theres anything wrong with the Alpha name or basic concept....except....just one thing...it flops every time.
I would enjoy a new Alpha series with a Doom Patrol quirkiness to every story. This is a team existing in the ginormous shadow of american super heroes. Their stories need to be distinct from what we usually find at the shops. With the teams entrenched mystical background I can see he mysteries of remote mysticism wreaking havoc that only Alpha Flight can deal with.
In a way, the weirdness of Bill Mantlos ideas could have been hugely successful in a better writers hands, and, perhaps, with a touch of decompression. I would mine his chunks of bizzare ideas, revisit them and say,,"ohhhh...the twins really ARE asgardian elves?" that kind of grant morrisson weirdness would work today I think.
The best coloring for an AF series today, that would reflect the airy cleanness of john byrnes work would be digital coloring like we currently see for that awesome geoff darrows conan cover. And the art should be clean, providing detail, but with better use of panel space, ala byrne, and not crowded splash pagey nonsense with gritty coloring.
Maybe someone like jim cheung would work great.

I know about Northguard (it was just a lone hero who went by the name) which is why I suggested it (with the name split in two to try to avoid legal BS). While most of us don't think there is anything wrong with the name or concept of Alpha Flight, there are many more out there who do. Which is probably one of the reasons why the book flops.
My own opinion is AF should avoid quirkiness (not that it's a bad idea) simply because the last thing the team needs is to appear odd or weird. If anything, they need to be taken as a serious team of heroes, not hard luck losers or weirdos or outcasts. That's how they got screwed over in the first place. I liked how they could handle any threat, be it high tech, mystical or plain old bad guys with guns. Unfortunately, Marvel seems to think they've run out of "concepts" for the team. Thing is they haven't had an AF book with AF since the first series, but try telling them that. :rolleyes:
I like your ideas about the art, and think you're right. AF lends itself to a more clean style than a dirtier, grittier one. Jim Cheung's artwork would be great, but (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't he like doing those big, busy splash pages?

[kozzi24]

The original Alpha were great characters. Byrne told great stories. Very few of Byrne's stories actually had a setting that COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN Canada.
The location is almost incidental to many stories. Tell great stories with great characters, and people will read.

[mos_def]

I wrote this on comicboards today, funny how things work, but Alpha Flights two big memorable moments were when Mac "died" in issue 12 (was there ever a leader of a book that died before that?) and Northstar admitting he was the 1st open gay hero. Why cant we be the 1st team that actually leaves their people dead. the shock. unless Walter wants to be bold and let the body of Heather touch Nemesis' sword, all the others i say leave dead and go from that (though X-Men keep screwing it up...ala Diamond Lil)

Mac created the team and Department H but the organization became so wicked that why even be associated with it. People always say they want the original team back and that the Byrne run was the best, and it was, but Alpha Flight wasnt the Canada superteam for most of Byrnes run. If I remember right, they actually didnt get back to being a government team till Byrne left. They were a bunch of heroes that happened to live in Canada. Gasp. The fight that "killed" Guardian was in New York. I think vol 1 after issue 80 or so until its completion lacked cuz they were just Canadas team. I didnt have a problem with vol 2 cuz it tried to go deeper where vol 1 left off. Vol 3 was a joke and OF was just face painting till the series ended.

You want to read a series with Jeffries, Sasquatch, Talisman and Snowbird? I would cuz they are from the Byrne era but as long as they aint answering to the Prime Minister or Cody or Clarke. Northstar is stuck in XMen cuz his sister is safe. If his sister wants back in on AF, I bet you JeanPaul follows. He always has. Invite Flashback into the group. Why not. We know squat of the guy since he went to jail for the Mac incident. Want to loan out the Guardian suit to a new guy, Im fine with that as long as he wasnt the bastard that killed AF. Its like inviting the guy who killed your mom to dinner afterwards. Of course Snowbird didnt want to rejoin the team but if its a fresh new guy then I will be more open to it. (I also like the Heather as Nemesis idea)

Department H can still exist. Maybe Gentry can still clean it up. MI13 and Excalibur co-exist seperately. Why not Dept H and AF.

[Le Messor]

Why can't we be the 1st team that actually leaves their people dead? The shock!

Good idea, but wouldn't work... Thing is, when somebody dies in comics (like, say, Flashback has), readers go 'They'll be back'.
Even if they never do come back, we (readers) don't have any way of knowing that. Well, the ones who can't travel through time don't.

And no matter how great the writers' intentions are, no matter how much the whole idea of the series is that people don't come back, some other writer would come along with a great idea and bring them back anyway.

- Le Messor
"Happiness is not a destination. It’s the trip."
~ Anonymous

[mos_def]

this new Heroic Age wold be a perfect time to kick a new Alpha series. With the SHRA terminated, Arachne would probably move back to the US but it would be a good launching point

[Le Messor]

If the new Heroic Age does what it sounds like it's meant to do, yes. It'll solve one of the problems I've had with a lot (but not all, not really even most) of comics lately - that the heroes aren't.
Comics, ideally, for me, should be a battle of good vs. evil; these days, a lot are evil vs. slightly less evil. I'm tired of being expected to sympathise with heroes I can't tell apart from villains. I'm tired of having to hold my 'heroes' to lower standards than I do real people - I should be able to hold them much, much higher.
The Heroic Age should, let's hope, solve that.

Will it solve the 'they never get the chance to be people problem'? Maybe, maybe not. There's nothing in the premise to say it should, but wouldn't it be cool if it did?
That might be a good time for a new Alpha Flight series.

- Le Messor
Hartley's Second Law: Never sleep with anyone crazier than yourself.

[cmdrkoenig67]

this new Heroic Age wold be a perfect time to kick a new Alpha series. With the SHRA terminated, Arachne would probably move back to the US but it would be a good launching point

I think Marvel already has plans for Arachne...And it doesn't look good...

POSSIBLE SPOILERS!
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I've seen an alternate cover of a team book (coming out sometime this year) called "The Young Allies", featuring Arana (the latest Spider-Lady) in Arachne/Julia's Omega Flight costume (or a very close of copy of it)...It has also been rumored that Arachne may put-out-of-action, crippled or even killed in Spider-Man's up-coming storyline, "The Grim Hunt". I've seen the cover costume pic and the speculations on other boards. I guess we'll have to wait and see what Julia's fate is.

Dana

[mos_def]

Ive always liked Arachne/Spider-Woman. I dont really connect her as being an Alphan though, personally. She appeared in what, 3 issues with Sasquatch and Talisman and one brief cameo when they got swarmed by Chthon bees. I have more connection with Yukon Jack then Julia cuz I always connect h er more with WCA and Force Works. It would be a shame though

[MistressMerr]

Ive always liked Arachne/Spider-Woman. I dont really connect her as being an Alphan though, personally. She appeared in what, 3 issues with Sasquatch and Talisman and one brief cameo when they got swarmed by Chthon bees. I have more connection with Yukon Jack then Julia cuz I always connect h er more with WCA and Force Works. It would be a shame though
Yeah, Alphan or not, I really like her. Fingers crossed.

[Alpha Rider]

I haven't read all the replies so if I write something that has been writen before let me know.

I believe that Alpha has the same probloms as Excalibure dose that they are not in the US and only seems to last as a novalty. This book needs a kick ass writer and artest that will stay on the book for along time. When Byrne did the book it wasn't always a team, they break off as individuals and as smaller groups of 2 or 3. The original line up was so rich in diversities with the individuals that had fantastic back stories. The team was a cross section of the MU: Guardian is tech (Iron Man) Snowbird is a God (Thor) North Star & Aurora are mutans (X-Men) Merina is a swimmer (Sub Mariner) Shaman is magic (Dr. Strange) Sasquatch the powerhouse (Hulk) Puck the agile one (Spider Man/ Dare Devil) After issue #50 vol I the new charaters added were not very good at all, or lacked the charm of their predisesors.

If this book will ever be succesful again they 1 tone down the Canadian patritizum 2 have more intersting charaters like the original line up 3 have a kick ass writer and artist 4 stop the Canadian goverment's involvment with the team. If I wanted to see a fedral inqury I'd watch CPAC.

[Le Messor]

Alpha Rider,

I'd put Puck as 'badass normal' (do not look that up on TV Tropes; you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave...), but otherwise, nice summary.
Your other points were made, but nobody's going to tell you that, because none of us is that rude.

'patritizum'? I'm not... familiar with that term.

- Le Messor
"Have you lived in this village all your life?"
"No, not yet."

[Alpha Rider]

'patritizum'? I'm not... familiar with that term. Typing and answering a 4yearolds "Why" questions at the same time. Or just bad spelling/ grammer. What I ment to say was Overly Patriotic.

[Le Messor]

Oh.

Why?

[Alpha Rider]

#-o

[Le Messor]

Now you're really on Alpha Waves...

[kinghorsey]

I believe there has to be some degree of reinvention, as well. Some of the new characters that were introduced in and for Alpha Flight were just awful.

The key will be a decisive direction and good writing. Unfortunately, without disrespecting any writer that's been on board with the book, we haven't really had that in a long time. Problem is I don't know if anyone really knows what to do with Alpha Flight.

I think for starters you can pretty much forget about having either one of the McKenzies in any kind of active role in the team - other than mentor, maybe.

I have to say, though, I liked the design/concept behind the Ultimate X-Men Snowbird over Byrne's original. Somehow the idea of an Inuit demi-goddess that looks like a poster child for Norwegian repopulation campaigns never sat right with me (i.e. white and very very blonde).

[cmdrkoenig67]

Julia Carpenter (formerly known as Arachne) is now apparently back in the States...

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After the Spider-Man event: The Grim Hunt, Julia somehow inherited the late Madame Web's abilities and has also taken her name...She's the new Madame Web.

Dana

[-K-M-]

Well this is old news, but some may not have heard yet.




SPOILER




USAgent during Seige had his arm and leg cut off by Nuke using Odin's spear and is now bound to a wheelchair.




END SPOILER

[cmdrkoenig67]

Well this is old news, but some may not have heard yet.




SPOILER




USAgent during Seige had his arm and leg cut off by Nuke using Odin's spear and is now bound to a wheelchair.




END SPOILER

Yeah, I had heard he was maimed somehow, but I didn't know the specifics of his injuries.

They'll probably stick a cybernetic arm and leg on him at some point...Who doesn't have cybernetic parts these days?...LOL! Ugh! :rolleyes:

Dana

[Le Messor]

I think for starters you can pretty much forget about having either one of the McKenzies in any kind of active role in the team - other than mentor, maybe.

It's spelled 'McKenzie', but I take it it's pronounced 'Hudson'?

- Le Messor
"He looks like a horse in a man costume!"
~ Bernard Black

[Flightpath07]

I think a good way to start the new book is kind of how it started in the first place - in other series. Give them enough guest appearances to intrigue the readers of those series; and write them in a way that portrays them as interesting and sympathetic. (Note to prospective writers: the 'sym' part of that last word is very important.)

Get readers used to them before the series starts, rather than just throwing it out there and hoping people notice.

- Le Messor
"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted, and the trouble is I don’t know which half."
~ John Wanamaker

Completely agree with this. It is, to one varying degree or another, what i was suggesting earlier, after all.

Oh, by the way, it is nice to be back! Been offlin,e without a pc, for the last three months or so. Missed you all terribly; found out you cannot post to this site from a Blackberry.
So...have I missed much in the time I have been gone?

Sorry, but I gotta put these lyrics here, as being without you all for these past months has nearly driven me around the bend!

Alice Cooper - The Quiet Room

The California air
Your nightgown on the stairs
I remember every night
Scenes from home in the Quiet Room

How long have I been gone
Did winter kill the lawn
And all those polaroids you sent
Are on the wall in the Quiet Room

They've got this place
Where they've been keeping me
Where I can't hurt myself
I can't get my wrists to bleed
Just don't know why
Suicide appeals to me

The Quiet Room
Is sterilized and white
It's like a tomb
With just a moth stained naked light

Plastic forks and spoons
No laces in my shoes
They all know what I tried to do
Outside the Quiet Room

This quiet place
It ain't so new to me
It's haunted atmosphere
Has heard so many scream
My home from home
My twilight zone
My strangest dream

My confidant
I have confessed my life
The Quiet Room
Knows more about me than my wife

They've got this place
Where they've been keeping me
Where I can't hurt myself
I just can't
I just can't get these damn wrists to bleed

A mattress on the floor
No handles on the door
I really need nothing more
I'm alone

[Flightpath07]

If the new Heroic Age does what it sounds like it's meant to do, yes. It'll solve one of the problems I've had with a lot (but not all, not really even most) of comics lately - that the heroes aren't.
Comics, ideally, for me, should be a battle of good vs. evil; these days, a lot are evil vs. slightly less evil. I'm tired of being expected to sympathise with heroes I can't tell apart from villains. I'm tired of having to hold my 'heroes' to lower standards than I do real people - I should be able to hold them much, much higher.
The Heroic Age should, let's hope, solve that.

Will it solve the 'they never get the chance to be people problem'? Maybe, maybe not. There's nothing in the premise to say it should, but wouldn't it be cool if it did?
That might be a good time for a new Alpha Flight series.

- Le Messor
Hartley's Second Law: Never sleep with anyone crazier than yourself.

So, as somebody who has been out of the loop for a bit - how is this new Age stacking up so far?

[Flightpath07]

I believe there has to be some degree of reinvention, as well. Some of the new characters that were introduced in and for Alpha Flight were just awful.

The key will be a decisive direction and good writing. Unfortunately, without disrespecting any writer that's been on board with the book, we haven't really had that in a long time. Problem is I don't know if anyone really knows what to do with Alpha Flight.

I think for starters you can pretty much forget about having either one of the McKenzies in any kind of active role in the team - other than mentor, maybe.

I have to say, though, I liked the design/concept behind the Ultimate X-Men Snowbird over Byrne's original. Somehow the idea of an Inuit demi-goddess that looks like a poster child for Norwegian repopulation campaigns never sat right with me (i.e. white and very very blonde).

I both agree and disagree.

Some of the characters introduced into Alpha Flight were just not rigth for the book - as characters, they were fine, just not for Alpha Flight, or that version of Alpha Flight. There are no bad characters, just bad writers.

Decisive direction and good writing - agreed. Somebody who understands comics in general, somebody who understands how to write intriguing and 'real' characters, and somebody who is a bit of a visionary (no, not somebody who bringsa back Vision and Scarlet Witch either, lol); that is what AF needs.

As has already been said here, i think the most imprtant thing for a re-launch would have to be guest appearances. The team has to be imposing, mysterious, heroic, and leave people wanting more. Thta, IMHO, is far more important than whether the team members are original members or not. When Byrnbe first started this crazy trip we call Alpha Flight, how many of the members were established heroes with back stories?

Right - none.

He introduced them in X-men appearances, and the people loved them. They didn't know who they were, but they desperately wanted to. And that is the sort fo writing we need again. Not Byrne, but somebody who can do that in the modern age.

[Le Messor]

So, as somebody who has been out of the loop for a bit - how is this new Age stacking up so far?

I don't think we've discussed it much.
Personally? Disappointed.
I was hoping to going back to hopeful, heroic stories with bright colours (I know those aren't the look now, but they really help me to enjoy a comic, it turns out, whatever Scott McCloud says)m focus on character (notably, people with secret identies - lives outside of being superheroes, so I have something to identify with); but I haven't seen much that isn't more of the same hard sci-fi 'tude that's been leaving me cold for a while now. One of the new relaunches was Secret Avengers, which is dark stuff again; as was Avengers Academy.
Not saying that stuff doesn't exist. Spider-Man springs to a wall, sticks there for a while, then springs to mind.

Been enjoying all one issues so far of Young Allies, but it needs to get its head out of 00s' fashion.

BTW... I didn't read the lyrics you posted. Why? Alice is my second-favourite artist (after Queen), and I know that song well. Love it.
But it's disturbing that you'd post it...

- Mik
"He that speaks ill of the Mare will buy her."
~ Benjamin Franklin

[Flightpath07]

Mik, it would have been disturbing if I had SANG it...

[Le Messor]

How do I know you didn't?
Come to think of it, how do I know you're not Mel Tormé?

- Le Messor
"He was a tall as a six foot three inch tree."

[Flightpath07]

Previous evidence suggests that if I had sang it, my mutant power to butcher good songs would have materialized and Professor X would have shown up on my door and had Wolverine gut me. As my guts are currently still intact, I didn't sing it.

[Le Messor]

Re-read those lyrics - wouldn't have happened this time.

- LM
"He who believes the past cannot be changed has not yet written his memoirs."

[Duane V]

That is an extremely sensible approach. One that would work....but the problem comes down to this; Who would buy a superhero book about Canadians? Who would care about it? In the mind of Marvel as a company, they likely assume Alpha Flight has no market. People have to be encouraged to care about these characters, as you said, by exposure to them, but IMO it needs to be about the individual characters first, so people don't go "Oh that Canadian team, who cares?" The nationality in most cases should come later. It shouldn't matter at all, but it does.


People bought John Byrne's version. I say, bring him back. He knows the characters intimately, he's known for (ahem) retro - fitting Classic characters from both Marvel and DC, and he'd do a great job, simply because he loves the Marvel Universe. I know for a fact that the problem isn't the characters, it's a simple matter of uninspired writing. The writer needs to love the characters as much as the fans at this website. That should be the Only pre requisite for handling the characters..

[cmdrkoenig67]

If loving the characters is a prerequisite for doing the book, then there's the first problem....John Byrne does not love Alpha Flight.

[Flightpath07]

If loving the characters is a prerequisite for doing the book, then there's the first problem....John Byrne does not love Alpha Flight.

But we love him.

Does this mean he is cheating on us?

[Le Messor]

But we love him.
Does this mean he is cheating on us?

I knew it! I saw him with a blue hair on his shoulder!

- Le Messor
"He who dies with the most toys is still dead."

[Duane V]

I think Byrne would jump at the chance to handle some Marvel characters again. He wasn't happy about his X-Men series being cancelled. He was instrumental in the creation of Alpha Flight; I think he'd like to retool the series. Marvel would have to want to put up with his Ego, though...I will always be a Byrne Victim. I just can't help it. He and George Perez will always be my favorite artists. It's been a while since Brne has had a chance to write Marvel characters. I'd bet he's got some good ideas.

[cmdrkoenig67]

John Byrne recently answered a query by one of the folks over at his message board...The person asked (paraphrased)..."If you had the chance to work at Marvel and continue the X-Men: Hidden Years series (and the current regime was no longer an issue), would you do it?" He answered (also paraphrased) "In a heartbeat."

So Mr Byrne isn't totally adverse to working at Marvel, but he may never work there as long as people like Joe Quesada are running the place.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'd really love to see John do another Alpha Flight series, but I highly doubt it will ever happen (he just doesn't think they are/were good enough to stand beside the likes of the Avengers, the FF, Thor, Captain America, etc...Since Alpha wasn't created by Lee and Kirby).

Wolverine wasn't created by Lee and Kirby either, yet look how big of a star he is....John Byrne is one of the people who helped to make him the success he is today (he saved Logan from being booted from the X-Men, when Claremont and Cockrum wanted to be rid of him)...The same could be said of Deadpool, who was created by Fabian Nicieza and Rob Liefeld (a man who for the most part, is reviled because of his questionable art talent), yet Deadpool (another Canadian character, who'd a thunk it?) is a big star at Marvel, as well.

It's really unfortunate that John doesn't see the value in his own work (that we do) and that his creations have stood right there, shoulder to shoulder with some of the greats...Alpha Flight are worthy heroes and wonderfully faceted characters (mostly thanks to him)....It's also unfortunate...No, actually...It's a disgrace that Marvel execs don't care about them either.

Dana

[Flightpath07]

Well put, Dana, as per usual.

[Duane V]

I Definitely agree with Dana. Quesada should extend an olive branch to Byrne. I haven't heard anything indicating a major rift between Byrne and the current Marvel staff. I mean other than the fact that his X - title was cancelled. Just read an interview with Byrne where he said part of his desire to make the characters more interesting was his decision to make Northstar gay after the fact. Aurora's multiple personalities make her interesting, alot could be done with that, plus Narya's (wasn't she named after one of Gandalf's three rings?)link to mythic Canadian lore..There's alot here to work with, but of course we think so or we wouldn't be here...

[cmdrkoenig67]

I Definitely agree with Dana. Quesada should extend an olive branch to Byrne. I haven't heard anything indicating a major rift between Byrne and the current Marvel staff. I mean other than the fact that his X - title was cancelled. Just read an interview with Byrne where he said part of his desire to make the characters more interesting was his decision to make Northstar gay after the fact. Aurora's multiple personalities make her interesting, alot could be done with that, plus Narya's (wasn't she named after one of Gandalf's three rings?)link to mythic Canadian lore..There's alot here to work with, but of course we think so or we wouldn't be here...

I don't know if that's where Mr Byrne got Snowbird's name from, but one of the rings is called Narya (the ring of fire).

Dana

[Le Messor]

Narya's (wasn't she named after one of Gandalf's three rings?)

I don't know if that's where Mr Byrne got Snowbird's name from, but one of the rings is called Narya (the ring of fire).

Because I like to quibble (actually, I just like to say quibble. "Quibble, quibble, quibble."), it was one of the elvish rings; Gandalf wore one (Narya, I think), but not the other two.

- LM
"He who is determined not to be satisfied with anything short of perfection will never do anything to please himself or others."
~ William Hazlitt

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'm including Mr Brevoort (along with JoeQ) in my "current regime" comment...He has bad-mouthed John Byrne in at least one article...I think it's safe to say there is more than one person at Marvel that John may have issues with.

Dana

[kozzi24]

In this case I don't blame Byrne. They cancelled "Hidden Years" because the "past-continuity" would "confuse" readers, then a few years later did those "First Class" projects. IMHO, Hidden Years was the best X-book on the market at the time.

Northsdtar gay "after the fact" is after one appearance where Byrne used him, the first appearance of the team. The team's second appearance by Byrne did not have Sasquatch or the twins, and the hints were pretty clear in AF#1, at least in hindsight.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I enjoyed Hidden Years too...Fun, all ages reading enjoyment that gave us a look into those years that the X-Men were guest-starring in other books, but had no series of their own.

The reason stated to the public may have been reader confusion, but John Byrne has said several times JoeQ had told him the reason for cancellation was that there were too many X-titles...Waiting for collective laughter from fellow forum members. Neither reason really makes any sense, considering Marvel now has probably double the X-titles they had then and as for reader confusion...Marvel puts out several alternate universe series, like the Ultimate line of comics, Marvel Adventures or even the What If and Universe X series of the past, etc...

Dana

[Le Messor]

the reason for cancellation was that there were too many X-titles...Waiting for collective laughter from fellow forum members.

Ha!
sorry, mine's pretty bitter.

- LM
"He who lives without folly is less wise than he believes."

[MistressMerr]

I enjoyed Hidden Years too...Fun, all ages reading enjoyment that gave us a look into those years that the X-Men were guest-starring in other books, but had no series of their own.

The reason stated to the public may have been reader confusion, but John Byrne has said several times JoeQ had told him the reason for cancellation was that there were too many X-titles...Waiting for collective laughter from fellow forum members. Neither reason really makes any sense, considering Marvel now has probably double the X-titles they had then and as for reader confusion...Marvel puts out several alternate universe series, like the Ultimate line of comics, Marvel Adventures or even the What If and Universe X series of the past, etc...

Dana
Yeah, it's ridiculous how many people/books/stories Quesada threw under the bus with all his BIG CHANGES when he took over, only to go back on pretty much all of them only a couple years later.

[Mokole]

Well, he always pushes his pet characters (She-Hulk, Spider-Girl for example) regardless of how much money they lose on those characters. Nobody cares about She-Hulk yet he pushed that character year after year of underselling by thousands of issues. No different than Bendis always using that one spider-woman and jewel. I bet both will argue that they weren't pushing personal favorites but 'trying to get more female readers'. As if She-Hulk brought in anything. :rolleyes:

[cmdrkoenig67]

Yeah, it's ridiculous how many people/books/stories Quesada threw under the bus with all his BIG CHANGES when he took over, only to go back on pretty much all of them only a couple years later.

Yep...Does anybody recall him saying "the dead will stay dead" thing a few years back, then we got back Colossus (I forget if anybody else came back around that time period) only a short time later. Now everybody is coming back...Whether it be as highly improbable skrull-replaced heroes, Techno-zombie mutants or the force-resurrection of heaven knows how many more characters during the Chaos Wars. Oy!

Dana

[DIGGER]

The dead will only stay dead if sales are good. If they aren't THEN you have the miraculous resurrections, the clones, the frozen in ice/space/cryogenic chamber. I can still recall the saying that Bucky is dead and will stay dead...guess we all know how that turned out. Everything old is new again. In comics. On television. At the movies.

DIGGER:-|

[Uncle Rich]

I have a lot of catching up to do. I haven't followed Alpha Flight since around the mid 80's.

What I do know is that AF went downhill fast when Mac got killed off in #12. I'm wondering how many times this series has been rebooted or how many times Mac (and others) have been resurrected.

I'm not sure who Mokole is blaming for she-hulk getting too much exposure, but it was that same way back in the 80's. A mediocre character getting too much play. I actually have a copy of the original She-hulk #1 (1980) but I'm not sure it's worth more than use as a coaster.

[kozzi24]

I have a lot of catching up to do. I haven't followed Alpha Flight since around the mid 80's.

What I do know is that AF went downhill fast when Mac got killed off in #12. I'm wondering how many times this series has been rebooted or how many times Mac (and others) have been resurrected.
Mac was ressurected four times, one time a fake, once a temporary thing that lasted about 12 issues, then at the close of Volume 1, I guess just so he would be around.
Volume 1 ended at #130 but was followed by a Northstar Mini that was OK.
Volume 2 saw the fourth Mac resurrection. It was also OK, but focused on too few "recognizable" Alphas and was very consp[iracy-theory drive, so did not much feel like Alpha Flight. It ran for 20 issues, IIRC.
Volume 3 would be a waste of your time and money. This site did support it, and those of us who gave timely voice "this sucks" were thoroughly spanked but have since made prodigal returns.
"Volume 4" was OMEGA Flight, and is well worth your time and money and should still be fairly readily available in Trade.
Guardian was killed off panel in New Avengers #16, so if he returns in the upcoming one-shot, this will be resurrection #5.

[Ben]

I have a lot of catching up to do. I haven't followed Alpha Flight since around the mid 80's.

What I do know is that AF went downhill fast when Mac got killed off in #12. I'm wondering how many times this series has been rebooted or how many times Mac (and others) have been resurrected.

The Alphanex is a good way to start catching up on characters. Also, ask lots of questions here :)

As for different series:
Alpha Flight Volume 1 - 130 Issues - Had it's ups and downs, but IMO, it's worth picking them up on Ebay for a full read through.
Alpha Flight Volume 2 - 18 Issues - I liked this series, but it had it's flaws for long term sustainability. It was mysterious and x-files ish
Alpha Flight Volume 3 - 12 Issues - Treated like a joke by Lobdell, most fans now pretend it didn't happen. I tried to stay positive at the time for the sake of the title, but now I pretend it was an alternate reality.
Omega Flight - 5 issues - I really enjoyed this series, and was very disappointed that it was downgraded to a mini series before it launched

Now we are getting the one shot...notice how the increments are decreasing? ;) now we nowhere to go but up! Check out the issue Summaries on the main site for a brief run-down on each issue. So far we are still missing Omega Flight and most of vol. 3, but the first two volumes are complete.

[Le Messor]

Now we are getting the one shot...notice how the increments are decreasing? ;) now we have nowhere to go but up!

Next: A back-up feature (1/2 issue) in Marvel Comics Presents! Then a zero-issue! No pages, no panels.

After that, Marvel will start unprinting earlier issues, and you'll actually see your collection get smaller...

- Le Messor
"He who reads many fortunes gets confused."

[cmdrkoenig67]

Nooooooooooooooooooo!

[Flightpath07]

Next: A back-up feature (1/2 issue) in Marvel Comics Presents! Then a zero-issue! No pages, no panels.

After that, Marvel will start unprinting earlier issues, and you'll actually see your collection get smaller...

- Le Messor
"He who reads many fortunes gets confused."

OMG! ROTFL...I think I just swallowed a whole muffin! (the weirdest thing is, I wasn't even eating one...)

[Muerman]

Anything! As long as Alpha Flight returns!

[Flightpath07]

Woo-hoo! Welcome, Muerman! All AF fans welcome here!

[Muerman]

Woo-hoo! Welcome, Muerman! All AF fans welcome here!

Thanks Flightpath! I've loved this book for years and I'm happy to see that there is a website that is up to date with anything having to do with Alpha Flight! I must admit, I've stumbled upon AlphaFlight.net before but it seemed to have gone the way of the books for a while! Happy to be a member now!

[Flightpath07]

Happy to be a member now!

In honour of all things AF, and the greatness of this site and the people on it, i am voting that we all join hands and sing hippie 60's tunes!

;)

[Le Messor]

If you're going to San Francisco, you'll meet some lovely people there...

[Flightpath07]

In San Fran, isn't the treat Rice-A-Roni?