We're all Alpha Flight fans, right...?

[Tawmis]

... but who (and name as many as you'd like) did you actually DISLIKE in Alpha Flight? Or what parts did you dislike of the character?

I am not talking story arcs or anything - I am talking specifically about the character. (Now if there was a specific story arc that changed a character for you and you disliked how they were handled, I suppose that's fair)!

So let's hear it? We can't possibly love ALL the characters that have been a part of ALPHA FLIGHT to some degree?

[Alpha Rider]

I disliked Mankind, Goblyn/Laura Dean, Wyre, Feedback, Stich, St.Elmo, Centenial, Major Maple Leaf II, and Yukon Jack.
I didn't like the way they used Nemises in the later part of the first series, or the 3rd series. I didn't like what they did to Wild Child and made him Weapon Omega, then Wild Heart, and then changed him back. I also didn't make Radius as being too cool for the room, but I guess that was just his personality and it could be forgiven.

[suzene]

Sasquatch. I'm sorry, guys, but the lines of consent in his and Aurora's relationship are entirely too blurry for me to feel comfortable with him as a character.

Heather, once Mantlo got a hold of her. :(

[Ahab]

I've said this before, but I was not a big fan of Radius, Murmur, Manbot or Sasquatch II. Power-wise, Radius was too similar to Cecilia Reyes and Skids. Why use Murmur when Persuasion was available? Sasquatch II was a stretch for credibility, even for a comic. Manbot? There was nothing interesting about him. Even Ghost Girl wasn't original.
Ironically, 1 of the characters in that series, who we never even had a good glimpse of, probably had the most potential - that being Flinch.
Earthmover wasn't a big thrill for me either. Why bring in someone as a protege other than Talisman?

[Phil]

I've said this before, but I was not a big fan of Radius, Murmur, Manbot or Sasquatch II. Power-wise, Radius was too similar to Cecilia Reyes and Skids. Why use Murmur when Persuasion was available? Sasquatch II was a stretch for credibility, even for a comic. Manbot? There was nothing interesting about him. Even Ghost Girl wasn't original.

I think the whole original point was that they were all 'Legacies' ie; children of existing heroes that Dept. H had either collected or created through DNA manipulation, to add to the sinister shadowy agenda of Vol.2, hence Radius WAS Unus, Flex WAS Wolverine, Murmur WAS Persuasion, Ghost Girl WAS Shadowcat, Manbot WAS Bochs etc etc...

[Ahab]

But that has never been made canon, correct? And no one followed up on it. The only reason we know this is because of an interview, right? Now they are either dead or powerless, so they remain boring to me.
I did like Flex though - I liked the conflict of his power vs his personality. And he came before Mercury, so his power was somewhat original (though I think there was a character in Cyberforce around the same time that was sort of similar?)

[Phil]

Yeah, but your point was that they weren't original and why use Murmur over Persuasion. That was the writer's reasoning, whether it was canon or not.
It may appear to just be blatant ignorance, but it wasn't; it just fell flat and short.
I never said I liked the characters, just showing some slight defence.

[Flightpath07]

Didn't like Radius, or Flex either. Goblyn was a definite YUCK. Much preferred Heather out of the battlesuit, and liked Puck much more when he was just a dwarf. I really enjoyed the emotional content between Puck and Heather, and wasn't a big fan of her hooking up with Jeffries. Manbot had potential, but was used poorly. In series three, I liked MM2, Puck 2, and definitely Yukon Jack, but the rest all sucked - well, Nemesis was alright, but she is better as a villain than as a hero. I actually preferred Murmur to Persuasion, which isn't to say that i actually disliked either.

[Ahab]

Yeah, but your point was that they weren't original and why use Murmur over Persuasion. That was the writer's reasoning, whether it was canon or not.
It may appear to just be blatant ignorance, but it wasn't; it just fell flat and short.
I never said I liked the characters, just showing some slight defence.

Point taken.
And boy, I couldn't agree with you more that it fell flat. :-D

It's always interesting to hear other's opinions on this board. I'm glad we all have very distinct likes and dislikes. It makes it so much more interesting.
I, for one, LOVED Goblyn. LOVED her. At least until Broderick started drawing her more human...that was awful...

[Alpha Rider]

My problom with Goblyn/ Laura Dean was, wouldn't Child Services had at least try and get her out from Alpha? How old was she 12? 10? and she's off battleing super villans. Even still why didn't anyone in Alpha say she's too young and not let her go on these dangerous missions? Clearly they had little or no sences of putting a very young child in harms way. The same could be said about Persusion, but at least she was 15 or 16 years old and was a couple years away from being an adult. I mean she could get her driver's licence. (Laura Dean Dean to could drive, if she was in Europe).

[Mokole]

Not a fan of Wyre, Murmur, Sasquatch II, Major Maple Leaf, Centennial, Marrina. Maybe that's all.

[Flightpath07]

Not a fan of Wyre, Murmur, Sasquatch II, Major Maple Leaf, Centennial, Marrina. Maybe that's all.

Personally, I liked Wyre. Just not in an Alpha Flight comic, perhaps. He wasn't right for the feel of the book (such as it was at the time he showed up). It was like trying to force-feed an X-Men type character into an Alpha Flight book - didn't work.

[kozzi24]

Sasquatch. I'm sorry, guys, but the lines of consent in his and Aurora's relationship are entirely too blurry for me to feel comfortable with him as a character.

Heather, once Mantlo got a hold of her. :(

Actually, the Aurora personality was in 100% control when the relationship began, so no consent issue with her. IIRC, Walt was never anything but a concerned comforter to Jeanne-Marie. It's possible I am forgetting a scene, but I don't think Walt ever had relations with Jeanne-Marie, only Aurora. When the personalities were briefly put into balance during the X0Men Alpha LS, the merged persona did not spurn Walt.

[kozzi24]

I disliked Madison Jeffries after Mantlo changed him from a homely gruff to the ultimate handsome hero with all the solutions.
I also never liked the Wildheart characterization, While I liked Furman's overall direction of the series, I disliked most of the characters he created for it.

[Tawmis]

Box - Any version of Box. I have never cared for the character at all - as a member of Alpha Flight. When he was originally a member of Omega Flight, I liked him. Thought he made a good counter part to Sasquatch in a Alpha vs Omega kind of way. But to me, Box was a very bad attempt to replace Sasquatch as the strong man on the team.

Centennial - There isn't much I like about this volume that he appeared in. I thought he was a "funny" character (amusingly written) - I just don't think it fit for Alpha Flight. He would have been better in Great Lakes Avengers or a title along those lines.

Earthmover - Could there be a character I hated more in Alpha Flight history? No. I don't think that's even possible. My dislike of Earthmover is epic. Why was he created? Why would Shaman select him over Talisman? And he looked like an idiot. That certainly didn't help me in trying to like him any! I just never cared about this character, and would not have complained if he was among the dead when the Collective came to town.

Heather - I didn't mind Heather. Until she put the suit on. I thought that was a horrible idea. Of course, while Mac's death (in Alpha Flight #12) was an epic story, it was the beginning of an end for Alpha Flight, who was leaderless. And Heather taking over, was not a good idea. I love strong women! I do. They top some of my favorites (Namorita, Valkyrie, Mystique) - but Heather didn't seem to fit as the new Guardian/Vindicator.

Manbot - Just... what the hell?

Mankin - Interesting powers, hated the character.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I can't pass this thread up... ;)

...because Alpha Flight started wracking up a lot of characters that just don't make any sense:

Radius [can't eat without forcefield-nullifying thingy, so how does he go to the bathroom?], Flex, Murmur*/Persuasion, and my most hated character, considered by some Alphans themselves to be worthy and right for the team----LIONEL (Monster-making savior of the team) JEFFRIES.

* These guys wouldn't last twenty seconds against a well-written Great Beast; I keep going back to it, but the story itself confirms that the newbies couldn't even take down Mesmero...Mesmero! Couldn't bring myself to pick on volume 3 since I consider it an "imaginary story" and I like the artwork...but that group didn't deserve to call itself 'Alpha Flight', either. Don't hate them, though.

[Tawmis]

I can't pass this thread up... ;)
my most hated character, considered by some Alphans themselves to be worthy and right for the team----LIONEL (Monster-making savior of the team) JEFFRIES.


To be fair, I am not sure if Lionel/Scramble, was technically ever a part of any "team" of Alpha Flight (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Omega)... He was more of a (bad) story element.

Admittedly, I did dislike Aurora during this time, where she was all over Roger just because he had legs...

[suzene]

Actually, the Aurora personality was in 100% control when the relationship began, so no consent issue with her. IIRC, Walt was never anything but a concerned comforter to Jeanne-Marie. It's possible I am forgetting a scene, but I don't think Walt ever had relations with Jeanne-Marie, only Aurora. When the personalities were briefly put into balance during the X0Men Alpha LS, the merged persona did not spurn Walt.

I don't blame Sasquatch for entering a romantic relationship with Aurora, but for continuing it once her mental illness surfaced. When the Jeanne-Marie personality was dominant in AF #3, she absolutely wanted nothing to do with him, going so far as to strike him and flee when he told her the nature of their relationship. But he was fine with cohabitating with Aurora when she came to him in AF #10 despite that, and they were still together 10+ issues later. Jeanne-Marie Beaubier is the base personality, and just because she wasn't in control of her body or aware of what was being done to it doesn't make it all right -- it's at the heart of what makes the whole thing so skeevy. And even aside from the sexual aspect of the relationship, agreeing to experiment on your mentally unstable, emotionally distraught girlfriend when you don't know what the full effects will be is dodgy enough on an ethical level, but Walt went one step beyond and didn't fully disclose what he assumed those effects would be.

So yeah, no love for Walter from this fangirl.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Mac...I (like John Byrne) found him to be so booooorrrring (it also seems no writer knows what to do with him when they bring him back from the dead and he ends up being killed off again)...If you're going to keep him around, please make him interesting! I was never a fan of Manikin, Persuasion, Feedback or Goblyn (I'm indifferent to Laura Dean). I also didn't like Bill Mantlo's handling of Roger Bochs, the character was absolutely ruined during that time.

I didn't like Murmur, Flex, Manbot, Radius and Ghost Girl.

I also disliked Major Mapleleaf Sr and Jr and Puck II (mostly because she embodied way too much of every bad trend...Tattoooed, rave painted, belly-shirted, baggy pants, visible thong! Argh!)...Centennial was Superman as a senior citzen (I really didn't like Volume 3 as a whole). I've disliked pretty much every characterization of Nemesis after Mantlo had her turn to dust, she was never the same again. I'm not a fan of Earthmover either.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

I don't blame Sasquatch for entering a romantic relationship with Aurora, but for continuing it once her mental illness surfaced. When the Jeanne-Marie personality was dominant in AF #3, she absolutely wanted nothing to do with him, going so far as to strike him and flee when he told her the nature of their relationship. But he was fine with cohabitating with Aurora when she came to him in AF #10 despite that, and they were still together 10+ issues later. Jeanne-Marie Beaubier is the base personality, and just because she wasn't in control of her body or aware of what was being done to it doesn't make it all right -- it's at the heart of what makes the whole thing so skeevy. And even aside from the sexual aspect of the relationship, agreeing to experiment on your mentally unstable, emotionally distraught girlfriend when you don't know what the full effects will be is dodgy enough on an ethical level, but Walt went one step beyond and didn't fully disclose what he assumed those effects would be.

So yeah, no love for Walter from this fangirl.

I understand where you're coming from, Suzene...But maybe Walter was in love with Aurora...Maybe that's why he couldn't break things off with her? As far for the experiment to alter Aurora's powers, Walter had selfish motives in doing the experiment, he wanted to drive a wedge between Aurora and Northstar...So he could have Aurora all to himself. Love sometimes makes us monsters.

Dana

[suzene]

I understand where you're coming from, Suzene...But maybe Walter was in love with Aurora...Maybe that's why he couldn't break things off with her? As far for the experiment to alter Aurora's powers, Walter had selfish motives in doing the experiment, he wanted to drive a wedge between Aurora and Northstar...So he could have Aurora all to himself. Love sometimes makes us monsters.

Perhaps, but what you're painting are two scenarios that are, at best, explanations, not excuses, and when the explanation is "He did it because he cared about his own happiness/libido/experiment more than he did his vulnerable lover's well-being" it's not making a case for why I should even like the character, let alone cut him any slack.

[Tawmis]

I don't blame Sasquatch for entering a romantic relationship with Aurora
(Snip)
So yeah, no love for Walter from this fangirl.

You know, that's an interesting take on Aurora and Sasquatch's relationship...! But then... when she switched back and forth... one side wanted Walt, one side wanted nothing to do with him... So imagine, if you will, Suzene, if you were in a relationship with someone... and dated them for quite some time... and everything seemed normal... then one day on a date, another persona emerges, and says they want nothing to do with you.

Do you break up? Because the person suffers from MPD - even though one side says they love you, and your love is everything they have dreamed of? Do you break up with them and break their heart, even though they have no memory of the other persona when it takes over - and thus don't recall them ever telling you?

[mos_def]

Wow, its Tawmis. I havent seen you since you wrote fanfics.

Characters are disliked. Hmm???

Manikin, Wyre and Feedback. everyone else was fine to me

[Alpha Rider]

Everyone is forgetting the big thing about good old Walt. He was married.

[suzene]

You know, that's an interesting take on Aurora and Sasquatch's relationship...! But then... when she switched back and forth... one side wanted Walt, one side wanted nothing to do with him... So imagine, if you will, Suzene, if you were in a relationship with someone... and dated them for quite some time... and everything seemed normal... then one day on a date, another persona emerges, and says they want nothing to do with you.

Do you break up? Because the person suffers from MPD - even though one side says they love you, and your love is everything they have dreamed of? Do you break up with them and break their heart, even though they have no memory of the other persona when it takes over - and thus don't recall them ever telling you?

What I would do is absolutely irrelevant to a discussion of Walter's character, so please don't derail. If what you mean to ask is what Walter possibly could have done in an admittedly difficult situation, there are more options than just breaking up, though even that's not necessarily a bad option, as there are worse things you can do to a person than walk away from them.

The situation is that the woman Walter had been dating and was, at the least, very fond of, suddenly began acting wildly unlike herself in a moment of duress, acting as if he were attempting to rape her each time he made any overture of physical affection, but eventually snapped out of it, with variable, if any, memory of what happened. The first thing would be to get her some professional help. The second thing would be policing his own behavior, especially once he found out that the person he thought he knew was the splinter personality and not the original -- when consent is in doubt, you err on the side of caution; his sexual frustration should have taken a distant back seat to her well-being. He'd need to accept that if explaining why he was acting the way that he was put him in the doghouse with the person he thought he knew and loved, that he'd have to suck it up and hope things got better with time. And if he found himself unable to adjust to the new state of things and found that he couldn't cope, then yes, breaking up would be the responsible thing to do. Whatever relationship he thought he had with Aurora ended the moment he found out about Jeanne-Marie's existence, and pretending otherwise was simply selfish on his part.

[DIGGER]

Dana, it's difficult for me to agree with the GUARDIAN=BORING because in the first 12 issues, the stories dealt with numerous characters, not just one. There was really no character development for Mac because of the roster of other characters. Yes Puck had his own story for an ish, and the Marrina/Master story lasted a couple but the only spotlight on Guardian was his origin story. The potential for his character was never fully realized. He was obviously a brilliant engineer/designer but his development was cut short by issue 12. The same boring tag could be placed on Shaman as well... gee an Indian who is a Shaman...how original. But it is because we were allowed to see the angst brought out through the introduction of Elizabeth/Talisman that Shaman became a more interesting character.

The only reason I'm writing this is because somebody else already mentioned the "Radius and how he goes to the bathroom thing" before I did! As for my least favourite characters...ALL BUT BYRNE'S... except for the Box/Transformer, man, I really hated that one (loved the original).

DIGGER (unofficial spokesman for the James Hudson/Guardian is not boring party...and yes I'm sure he knows how to party too!){guardian}

[Legerd]

Honestly, Snowbird, as originally written by Byrne, always seemed a useless character to me. She's a demi-god with flight, superhuman physical attributes, postcognitive abilities and mystical resistance, but her main power was to turn into albino versions of animals native only to the Canadian arctic. WTF? Really? And to make her even more useless, she risked losing herself in the animals mentality if she stayed in animal form too long. Plus, she couldn't transform between animals, having always to revert to her human shape first. And the final kicker, she couldn't cross the Canadian border without it being fatal to her.
It seemed nonsensical to give her the power to transform into a polar bear when she already was physically superior, and why turn into an owl when she could already fly? She didn't need to have the keen senses of a wolf to track someone down when she could simply look into the past and see where her quarry had gone. I figure, since she was supposed to be a champion for the Northern Gods, she should have been a warrior-god, naturally adept in all forms of combat and capable of going toe to toe with any physical or mystical menace. After all, what's the use of being able to turn into an arctic hare when facing one of the Great Beasts?
With that said, however, I liked FVL's take on her in the God Squad book during Secret Invasion. She was brave, tough, skilled and used her metamorphic abilities well. Hell, it was she who killed the big bad Skrull god even though Herc got all the credit. I think Snowbird is one of those characters begging to be revamped and reintroduced to the modern readers by having her godhood explored more in depth. And having just typed that I realize how dirty it sounds. ;)

[Flightpath07]

Love sometimes makes us monsters.

That is deep. And true. And deserves it's own post.

As far as my take on the Sas-Aurora relationship...I think it all boils down to how Byrne felt about feeling forced into writing a series with characters he didn't want anything more to do with. We all talk about how the characters are all flawed...it think it is Byrne's hatred of them that made them so flawed, that made him write them that way. Their flaws made them human...but the more you dig into their motives for what they did, the more i start to think that these are not really the types of heroes I want anymore. They are not, after all, that heroic. Their morals are shown to be lacking, their decisions often horrible, the consequences drastic for those closest to them.

Considering all these things, is it any wonder that somebody without our innate love for Alpha Flight, would mock these characters and think them stupid failures?

I love Alpha Flight, I really do.

I'm just starting to think...maybe they should have stayed dead, for good...? Maybe we need heroes who are more...heroic, than they were?

[Tawmis]

Wow, its Tawmis. I havent seen you since you wrote fanfics.


I'm like Jesus. I resurrect and appear again like every couple thousand years. :-D


What I would do is absolutely irrelevant to a discussion of Walter's character, so please don't derail.


I had no intention of derailing. Thought you brought up an interesting point and was curious how you might react in a similar situation, to perhaps understand Walt's situation.


Honestly, Snowbird, as originally written by Byrne, always seemed a useless character to me.The final kicker, she couldn't cross the Canadian border without it being fatal to her.
It seemed nonsensical to give her the power to transform into a polar bear when she already was physically superior, and why turn into an owl when she could already fly?


I admittedly hated the Canadian Border thing... like a line drawn by MAN would dictate where a Demi-Goddess' powers should suddenly stop and prove nearly fatal to her? That part I disliked. But her transforming to owls, bears, etc, I actually liked. To me, this is a common thing you hear about Indian type deities, that they take the form of the wolf, the coyote, the eagle, etc. As for her human form, in an owl, she could perhaps gain the abilities of an owl that she didn't have as Snowbird (superior sight, hearing), and in bear form, she got the bear's strength, claws, etc. So the transforming made sense to me... just not the border limit.



I'm just starting to think...maybe they should have stayed dead, for good...? Maybe we need heroes who are more...heroic, than they were?

I can't help but wonder, when X-MEN sales were slacking back in the 60s and 70s, that they were forced to go to reprints, if they thought the same thing - that perhaps the X-MEN should just go away?

Hell no. All it took was someone with some balls and some true writing talent (at the time) and an incredible artist - to take the X-MEN and reinvent them into the cash cows they are now. ALPHA FLIGHT could get some incredible treatment, if given some love. Even the newest series of THOR got that treatment - we got a THOR who was BEYOND powerful and was in no mood to take any crap from anyone. And they reinvented him, gave him an updated look, etc. And it all came together. I don't think giving up on ALPHA FLIGHT is the answer. We have some dynamic looking characters. We just need someone who knows what to do with them.

[MistressMerr]

What I would do is absolutely irrelevant to a discussion of Walter's character, so please don't derail. If what you mean to ask is what Walter possibly could have done in an admittedly difficult situation, there are more options than just breaking up, though even that's not necessarily a bad option, as there are worse things you can do to a person than walk away from them.

The situation is that the woman Walter had been dating and was, at the least, very fond of, suddenly began acting wildly unlike herself in a moment of duress, acting as if he were attempting to rape her each time he made any overture of physical affection, but eventually snapped out of it, with variable, if any, memory of what happened. The first thing would be to get her some professional help. The second thing would be policing his own behavior, especially once he found out that the person he thought he knew was the splinter personality and not the original -- when consent is in doubt, you err on the side of caution; his sexual frustration should have taken a distant back seat to her well-being. He'd need to accept that if explaining why he was acting the way that he was put him in the doghouse with the person he thought he knew and loved, that he'd have to suck it up and hope things got better with time. And if he found himself unable to adjust to the new state of things and found that he couldn't cope, then yes, breaking up would be the responsible thing to do. Whatever relationship he thought he had with Aurora ended the moment he found out about Jeanne-Marie's existence, and pretending otherwise was simply selfish on his part.

But consent wasn't in doubt, Aurora was entirely willing. MPD/DID is a tricky area, because while Aurora/Jeanne-Marie is technically one woman with a mental illness, for all practical purposes, they're two very different people and were treated as such by everyone around her. Walter entered into a relationship with the one and not the other, and I just can't fault him all that much for seeing it that way. It's not like he was forcing himself on Jeanne-Marie while she was the dominant personality, at least once he had a handle on what exactly was going on. That and the idea that neither personality should be allowed to date and fall in love because the other might disagree just doesn't sit well with me. Having to share a body with offshoots of your own mind is already a violation in and of itself, Jeanne-Marie's perspective on Walter's relationship with Aurora is, at worst, just an unfortunate part of that. Also, when she was cured of her illness in the X-Men/AF mini, she was still A-OK being in the relationship with him, which is pretty telling to me.

I'll give you the part where he experimented on her, though, that was a pretty dick move. His entire origin story is that he did the exact same thing to himself, though, so I don't really hold it against him.

[Legerd]

I admittedly hated the Canadian Border thing... like a line drawn by MAN would dictate where a Demi-Goddess' powers should suddenly stop and prove nearly fatal to her? That part I disliked. But her transforming to owls, bears, etc, I actually liked. To me, this is a common thing you hear about Indian type deities, that they take the form of the wolf, the coyote, the eagle, etc. As for her human form, in an owl, she could perhaps gain the abilities of an owl that she didn't have as Snowbird (superior sight, hearing), and in bear form, she got the bear's strength, claws, etc. So the transforming made sense to me... just not the border limit.


I know that many First Nations gods changed into animals, hell a lot of gods from all over the world did, but it never made sense to me that a god meant to be a champion for her pantheon had as her main power, ie: her main method of attack, the ability to transform into animals. As I said, in her human form she was far more powerful and didn't run the risk of going feral. If she had been simply a mortal Inuit with the mystical or mutant ability to change into animals with the limitations she had then I'd be okay with it, but she was meant to be a champion, a warrior sent by the other gods to fight their battle against their greatest foes. And when you look at how powerful the Great Beasts were you have to ask what was she supposed to do against them? "Oh no it's Tundra, I better transform into a polar bear and start clawing him now, 'cause I'm gonna be at it for awhile."

She should have been more like Wonder Woman, a skilled warrior armed with some mystical weapons given to her by the gods designed to take advantage of the weaknesses of the Great Beasts. A bow that fired arrows that could burn or freeze an opponent; a spear that could summon storms or stir the seas; a shield that could deflect the mightiest blows and a club that could shatter glaciers or the Canadian Shield with one blow. Add to that a fur cloak whose mystical properties allow her to survive in any environment from the crushing depths of the ocean to the airless vacuum of space and she'd have been a kick ass hero.

Yes, Byrne only designed AF to be able to go up against the X-men, but that didn't mean he couldn't have fleshed out Snowbird later on. It was a missed opportunity IMO, and nothing has been done with her since, other than what FVL did, to improve her. Honestly, I'd love to see her revamped as a warrior-god and given a solo mini in which she has to destroy the Great Beasts once and for all, I think that would sell and it would be a new, empowered female-oriented title.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Dana, it's difficult for me to agree with the GUARDIAN=BORING because in the first 12 issues, the stories dealt with numerous characters, not just one. There was really no character development for Mac because of the roster of other characters. Yes Puck had his own story for an ish, and the Marrina/Master story lasted a couple but the only spotlight on Guardian was his origin story. The potential for his character was never fully realized. He was obviously a brilliant engineer/designer but his development was cut short by issue 12. The same boring tag could be placed on Shaman as well... gee an Indian who is a Shaman...how original. But it is because we were allowed to see the angst brought out through the introduction of Elizabeth/Talisman that Shaman became a more interesting character.

The only reason I'm writing this is because somebody else already mentioned the "Radius and how he goes to the bathroom thing" before I did! As for my least favourite characters...ALL BUT BYRNE'S... except for the Box/Transformer, man, I really hated that one (loved the original).

DIGGER (unofficial spokesman for the James Hudson/Guardian is not boring party...and yes I'm sure he knows how to party too!){guardian}

Digger, I have to disagree with you on Shaman. At first, I thought Michael Twoyoungmen was very boring...But he was later given a lot of back-story during Byrne's run in Volume 1 (separating himself from his tribe to become a doctor in the "white man's world", losing his wife to cancer, losing his daughter after his wife's death, then finally coming back to his roots. Michael became very multi-layered (he's not just a shaman, he's also a widower, a brilliant surgeon, a father, etc...), where Mac did not....We learned very, very little about Mac during Byrne's run. Who was Mac's family (did he have parents, siblings, etc...)? What formed his life and how did he choose to become a scientist/engineer? Why does he not want to wear the battlesuit and be the hero (he's always tried to put somebody else as leader of Alpha)? Later writers tried to add unnecessary darkness to Mac , I guess in an effort to make him more interesting (like Mantlo indicating Mac was partly responsible for Logan being kidnapped by the Weapon X program and being responsible for the creation of Bedlam), while other writers tried to undo that darkness. He's been written horrible inconsistent with each appearance.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Honestly, Snowbird, as originally written by Byrne, always seemed a useless character to me. She's a demi-god with flight, superhuman physical attributes, postcognitive abilities and mystical resistance, but her main power was to turn into albino versions of animals native only to the Canadian arctic. WTF? Really? And to make her even more useless, she risked losing herself in the animals mentality if she stayed in animal form too long. Plus, she couldn't transform between animals, having always to revert to her human shape first. And the final kicker, she couldn't cross the Canadian border without it being fatal to her.

See...To me, all of those things don't make her useless, they make her more interesting to read about. Placing limitations on a character can make them far more interesting than a character that has the power of a million exploding suns. I found Snowbird very interesting in that she was a demigod, but she began to long to be human...Even though her godly family forbade it...I found that all interesting.


It seemed nonsensical to give her the power to transform into a polar bear when she already was physically superior, and why turn into an owl when she could already fly? She didn't need to have the keen senses of a wolf to track someone down when she could simply look into the past and see where her quarry had gone. I figure, since she was supposed to be a champion for the Northern Gods, she should have been a warrior-god, naturally adept in all forms of combat and capable of going toe to toe with any physical or mystical menace. After all, what's the use of being able to turn into an arctic hare when facing one of the Great Beasts?
With that said, however, I liked FVL's take on her in the God Squad book during Secret Invasion. She was brave, tough, skilled and used her metamorphic abilities well. Hell, it was she who killed the big bad Skrull god even though Herc got all the credit. I think Snowbird is one of those characters begging to be revamped and reintroduced to the modern readers by having her godhood explored more in depth. And having just typed that I realize how dirty it sounds. ;)

Some of her abilities as an animal would increase her ability to be stealthy, her ability to take on the form of a Great Beast may be dangerous, but it allowed her to take them on as an equal. Her strength as a polar bear is far more than a mere actual polar bear's strength. The ability to become an animal also gives her the ability to blend in/to hide in plain sight. Being able to transform into an animal would have plenty of uses, perhaps even beyond those we can think of.

Dana

[Tawmis]

I know that many First Nations gods changed into animals, hell a lot of gods from all over the world did, but it never made sense to me that a god meant to be a champion for her pantheon had as her main power, ie: her main method of attack, the ability to transform into animals. As I said, in her human form she was far more powerful and didn't run the risk of going feral. If she had been simply a mortal Inuit with the mystical or mutant ability to change into animals with the limitations she had then I'd be okay with it, but she was meant to be a champion, a warrior sent by the other gods to fight their battle against their greatest foes. And when you look at how powerful the Great Beasts were you have to ask what was she supposed to do against them? "Oh no it's Tundra, I better transform into a polar bear and start clawing him now, 'cause I'm gonna be at it for awhile."

She should have been more like Wonder Woman, a skilled warrior armed with some mystical weapons given to her by the gods designed to take advantage of the weaknesses of the Great Beasts. A bow that fired arrows that could burn or freeze an opponent; a spear that could summon storms or stir the seas; a shield that could deflect the mightiest blows and a club that could shatter glaciers or the Canadian Shield with one blow. Add to that a fur cloak whose mystical properties allow her to survive in any environment from the crushing depths of the ocean to the airless vacuum of space and she'd have been a kick ass hero.

Yes, Byrne only designed AF to be able to go up against the X-men, but that didn't mean he couldn't have fleshed out Snowbird later on. It was a missed opportunity IMO, and nothing has been done with her since, other than what FVL did, to improve her. Honestly, I'd love to see her revamped as a warrior-god and given a solo mini in which she has to destroy the Great Beasts once and for all, I think that would sell and it would be a new, empowered female-oriented title.

See, I enjoyed that she was not some uber powerful demi goddess... If she was, why would she need to be a part of Alpha Flight? There is technically no reason for THOR to be on the Avengers. He certainly doesn't need their help. I think giving her limitations makes it so that she's a little more human... (and correct me if I am wrong - she is technically partially human?)... so for me, I enjoyed her being slightly flawed... and not being an over the top kick arse, take everyone down, don't need anyone's help type of hero. Snowbird has showed that she can be vicious and take care of things herself, when needed. And for being their champion, it never said that their champion would do things alone. I think the idea might have been to gather others like her, with powers, to help defend Canada. That said, I could see Snowbird moving to a more assertive, and more aggressive (as in leadership) role. THAT to me would be a natural step for her.

[Flightpath07]

She should have been more like Wonder Woman, a skilled warrior armed with some mystical weapons given to her by the gods designed to take advantage of the weaknesses of the Great Beasts.

So...more like Yukon Jack? Cuz, that is basically him in a nutshell. As I have OFTEN said about YJ, underused character who should be used more. Very powerful, very disdainful, very godly. Very cool!

[Tawmis]

So...more like Yukon Jack? Cuz, that is basically him in a nutshell. As I have OFTEN said about YJ, underused character who should be used more. Very powerful, very disdainful, very godly. Very cool!

I concur. I actually liked Yukon Jack. Could have gone with a better name... but still liked the character.

[Legerd]

I love limitations and flaws in a hero too, but they have to make sense. Snowbird's don't. And again, her physical abilities as an animal are either equal to or less than her abilities in human form so not much point to being able to shapeshift. She's supposed to be a demi-god, but most superhumans she would encounter wouldn't be threatened by even her polar bear form. She doesn't have to be uber powerful like they've made Thor and Hercules, but she should be far above the average superhuman and in the range of the more powerful ones. That's why I used the comparison of Wonder Woman; a powerful warrior who augments her abilities with mystical weapons. Being able to blend in or be stealthy wouldn't help her against the Great Beasts who can sense her divine power and they are the enemy she was created to fight. So what advantage does it provide when fulfilling her principle duty? None.

Yes, she is partially human, but then so is Hercules, and he has done numerous acts of godly immensity even before he got the Skyfather powers. Why is it such a sin for Snowbird (or any Alphan for that matter) to be powerful? Isn't that what she was born to be? How is she expected to be able to fight the Great Beasts with only the ability to change into a handful of animals? If she is meant to stop Tundra then she should either have the appropriate powers or the appropriate weapons to do so. Maybe it's just me, but I expect some in-book logic if I'm going to like a character.

[Tawmis]

I love limitations and flaws in a hero too, but they have to make sense. Snowbird's don't. And again, her physical abilities as an animal are either equal to or less than her abilities in human form so not much point to being able to shapeshift. She's supposed to be a demi-god, but most superhumans she would encounter wouldn't be threatened by even her polar bear form.


Creative writing will work wonders. Look at the trouble STORM had with SNOWBIRD in UNCANNY X-MEN #121. I have re-read that issue a bazillion times (it ranks as one of my favorites of all time in X-Men history). I think it just takes a good writer to make a character interesting and make it seem like even the simplest of powers could still work.



Yes, she is partially human, but then so is Hercules, and he has done numerous acts of godly immensity even before he got the Skyfather powers. Why is it such a sin for Snowbird (or any Alphan for that matter) to be powerful? Isn't that what she was born to be? How is she expected to be able to fight the Great Beasts with only the ability to change into a handful of animals? If she is meant to stop Tundra then she should either have the appropriate powers or the appropriate weapons to do so. Maybe it's just me, but I expect some in-book logic if I'm going to like a character.

Well, Herc never did much but smash things. Herc was pretty much a ball of super strength and endurability. He wasn't shooting lightning from his fingers or anything. So other than lifting heavy things and taking some serious beatings, off hand I can't recall anything spectacular that Herc did. Where as we have seen Snowbird with an assortment of powers; from shape shifting, to preocog powers.

As for logic in comics, that fails from the start. :-) Because the real question is why would Gods need to have an affair with a human to spawn a half-goddess? Why couldn't said Gods just CREATE a being made of magical properties and just have at it? Why would gods need help fighting the Great Beasts?

[Tawmis]

Real quick I want to point out - that I respect everyone's dislike of various characters! I knew that various characters would be listed that someone else was sure to like, and would defend said character, and make for some good convo! Which I think this thread has! :)

[Legerd]

Creative writing will work wonders.
True, but what's even better is a logical groundwork on which to build a character. After that creative writing is not only easier, it has more directions in which to go. Snowbird could have been a deeper, richer character than she is, and building on her beginnings as they are won't take you very far. Creative writing is good, but it can be stretched too thin when you don't have a lot to work with which leads to readers saying things like: "Character X has never been able to do that before," or "But Character Y's origin says she can only activate her powers under stress," or any other number of complaints they come up with when a writer has a character do something they normally can't. For some of us it invalidates the story, because pulling a deus ex machina after putting a character into a no win situation is poor writing.


Well, Herc never did much but smash things. Herc was pretty much a ball of super strength and endurability. He wasn't shooting lightning from his fingers or anything. So other than lifting heavy things and taking some serious beatings, off hand I can't recall anything spectacular that Herc did.
That's what I'm referring to. Herc has done amazing feats of battle and strength (which is exactly what his skill set is as a god) compare that to "turns into a rabbit" and tell me which is more impressive.


As for logic in comics, that fails from the start. :-) Because the real question is why would Gods need to have an affair with a human to spawn a half-goddess? Why couldn't said Gods just CREATE a being made of magical properties and just have at it? Why would gods need help fighting the Great Beasts?
No, logic doesn't automatically fail in comics. Every type of genre, no matter how mundane or magical, has ground rules or in-story logic on which the writer bases the story. They are guidelines in which the readers expect the writer to work and once they are set down anything outside of them has broken the in-story logic. We accept that superheroes exist in the MU, and we accept that they can do impossible things, but we also expect the writers to stay within the known powers and abilities of the characters otherwise the story fails. We accept Snowbird is a demi-god, and we accept she has been created to fight the Great Beasts, we can even accept the idea she is expected to do it with the powers she has, but if she were to win every battle she has with one of them based on her existing power set... well, that I can't accept. To simply say "she's magical now have at it" would fail the logic Byrne set down in Snowbird's origins, which was: the gods needed to have an affair with a human to spawn a half-goddess. Besides, then you'd be saying she's too powerful. ;)

[Tawmis]

True, but what's even better is a logical groundwork on which to build a character. After that creative writing is not only easier, it has more directions in which to go. Snowbird could have been a deeper, richer character than she is, and building on her beginnings as they are won't take you very far. Creative writing is good, but it can be stretched too thin when you don't have a lot to work with which leads to readers saying things like: "Character X has never been able to do that before," or "But Character Y's origin says she can only activate her powers under stress," or any other number of complaints they come up with when a writer has a character do something they normally can't. For some of us it invalidates the story, because pulling a deus ex machina after putting a character into a no win situation is poor writing.


Now I want to be clear, I wouldn't mind if Snowbird became more powerful, if it was done logically. I am not saying keep her at her current power level - FOREVER! Not at all. So if she pulled off some kind of crazy stunt that she couldn't before (and it was done with some kind of logical reason) - then I am all for it. Speedball, from the New Warriors, for example, went from just bouncing around uncontrollably, to being able to stop things moving - due to his kinetic control (which included bullets being shot at him), to eventually even being able to manipulate time itself. This progressive growth in his powers made him interesting to me. I was invested! If he could stop time right from the start, I probably would not have enjoyed the character as much because there would have probably been very little forward movement (no pun intended). So Snowbird starting off as she did - and should she become more powerful - I'd be okay with it!



That's what I'm referring to. Herc has done amazing feats of battle and strength (which is exactly what his skill set is as a god) compare that to "turns into a rabbit" and tell me which is more impressive.


Well since I consider Herc boring and Snowbird as one of my favorites... You probably don't want MY answer. :-)



No, logic doesn't automatically fail in comics.


Nay! I wasn't saying the logic fails in comics - I meant the fact you sought logic about Snowbird, and if she was supposed to be all powerful, how come she's so "weak" (all things considered). I was saying if the Gods plans were they needed a champion - it makes no logical sense to me why they'd "weaken" their chosen one by having an affair with a human. They're Gods. They resurrect dead people. They appear where ever they want. They do all kinds of magic. Why wouldn't they just MAGICALLY create a champion? A guardian angel, of sorts, if you will? Why even have to do anything with humans to "create" their desired champion? I get it was their story line that Byrne laid out - but if you're looking for logic - you would have to ask yourself, not why Snowbird is weak - but why the gods ever needed to do the wild thing with a human to spawn a half-goddess? Why not just whip one up themselves? They are... after all, gods.

[Legerd]

Now I want to be clear, I wouldn't mind if Snowbird became more powerful, if it was done logically. I am not saying keep her at her current power level - FOREVER! Not at all. So if she pulled off some kind of crazy stunt that she couldn't before (and it was done with some kind of logical reason) - then I am all for it.

On this we agree. I just think she should have started off more powerful than she did. To me it would have been more logical for Snowbird to have been born a warrior-god armed with the weapons she would need to fight god-like beings (the Great Beasts) than to have been born a metamorph with extreme limitations on her power. The main point I'm trying to make is using in-story logic when writing rather than ignoring it.



Nay! I wasn't saying the logic fails in comics - I meant the fact you sought logic about Snowbird, and if she was supposed to be all powerful, how come she's so "weak" (all things considered). I was saying if the Gods plans were they needed a champion - it makes no logical sense to me why they'd "weaken" their chosen one by having an affair with a human. They're Gods. They resurrect dead people. They appear where ever they want. They do all kinds of magic. Why wouldn't they just MAGICALLY create a champion? A guardian angel, of sorts, if you will? Why even have to do anything with humans to "create" their desired champion? I get it was their story line that Byrne laid out - but if you're looking for logic - you would have to ask yourself, not why Snowbird is weak - but why the gods ever needed to do the wild thing with a human to spawn a half-goddess? Why not just whip one up themselves? They are... after all, gods.

Byrne could have gone that route and it would have been fine with me, it would have made more sense. However, it was just as viable for him to go the way he did as we have gods like Hercules who are demi-gods born of gods and mortals and are very powerful. Either way would be within the logic of the MU framework. The problem isn't the way Snowbird was created, it's her power set and power levels she had for the job she was born to fulfill that are illogical.

[ClawMaraud]

Alpha Rider .. The X Men put young mutants at risk all of the time. It is interesting how comic book companies put children as heroes in books. It is definitely a way to get the younger crowd in. In Alpha Flight, though, Laura Dean was always in a depressed nature. The writers should have made her act like a kid after dealing with some of the tougher issues that beleaguered her. Alpha Flight would have become her family and it should have showed more that she cared for them.

[ClawMaraud]

I understand where you're coming from, Suzene...But maybe Walter was in love with Aurora...Maybe that's why he couldn't break things off with her? As far for the experiment to alter Aurora's powers, Walter had selfish motives in doing the experiment, he wanted to drive a wedge between Aurora and Northstar...So he could have Aurora all to himself. Love sometimes makes us monsters.

Dana


Dana, You made a funny. We ARE talking about Sasquatch. 'Monster' definitely fits his character.

[Alpha Rider]

Alpha Rider .. The X Men put young mutants at risk all of the time. It is interesting how comic book companies put children as heroes in books. It is definitely a way to get the younger crowd in. In Alpha Flight, though, Laura Dean was always in a depressed nature. The writers should have made her act like a kid after dealing with some of the tougher issues that beleaguered her. Alpha Flight would have become her family and it should have showed more that she cared for them.
True. But I never was a fan of New Mutans or Power Pack, but at least NM were teens, which I learn to live with.

[Tawmis]

True. But I never was a fan of New Mutans or Power Pack, but at least NM were teens, which I learn to live with.

The original run of New Mutants (right up to around issue 17) was nothing short of awesome.

[MistressMerr]

The original run of New Mutants (right up to around issue 17) was nothing short of awesome.
You think? For me, the Claremont/Sienkiewicz run (18 to 38 ) are the golden years, hands down. One of my top 5 favourite runs of anything, right up there with AF #1-28.

[Tawmis]

You think? For me, the Claremont/Sienkiewicz run (18 to 38 ) are the golden years, hands down. One of my top 5 favourite runs of anything, right up there with AF #1-28.

Honestly it was the art that turned me off. I didn't like that, for example, Sam's head was like 30 feet long with his hair. And everyone looked like they were made out of wire. When I have to pause to try and figure out who is who or what's going on in a comic panel, it takes me out of the moment... so to speak. Also a lot of the stories seemed... pretty strange. I didn't mind Demon Bear. But then Rahne with the fairy tale story... I didn't care for it. Seemed like a HORRIBLE attempt (to me, mind you!) at trying to sort of capture what X-Men did with "Kitty's Fairytale" which was awesome.

[Le Messor]

...in her human form she ... didn't run the risk of going feral.
Isn't that what happened to her? She went human feral.
Also, remember when she had to turn into a wolverine to defeat Wendigo?


The main point I'm trying to make is using in-story logic when writing rather than ignoring it.

I get that that'd make it harder to read, but you've got to remember that Byrne didn't create her as a goddess; he didn't know what he wanted her to be when he made her a shapeshifter, and her origin was a retcon. So he couldn't do that.

Also, I've always liked her because she can become animals.

Suzene, I will always like Sasquatch, but I understand your points, and they do make sense.

The original question:
I'm on record (available for $15.99 at bad record stores everywhere) as saying I loathe v2 with a passion. While I agree that the dichotomy between Flex's powers and his personality makes him a good character, the rest... Ugh. I don't even call it Alpha Flight.

- Le Messor
"I hate it when people say I ran away like a frightened rabbit. Maybe I ran like a brave rabbit who was picking a fight somewhere else."
~ Snowbird Jack Handey

[Phil]

I'm on record (available for $15.99 at bad record stores everywhere) as saying I loathe v2 with a passion. While I agree that the dichotomy between Flex's powers and his personality makes him a good character, the rest... Ugh. I don't even call it Alpha Flight.

See, I'm torn.
If it wasn't for the promotion and launch of Vol.2 #1 I'd never have picked up Vol.1 #1 or joined this list/group/forum/site in it's varying incarnations, so Vol.2 will always have a place in my heart. And 16 year old me enjoyed most of it.
Looking back now, and having read the whole of the Byrne run since, it doesn't stand up to Byrne Flight and to me it's more "Department H: The Miniseries" with a few guest appearances from Alphans, much like Volume 3 was "What The...?!?:An Alpha Flight Special" and Omega Flight was "Civil War Aftermath - The Initiative: Canada."

Or something like that. Not slighting any of the creators involved.

[Phil]

Honestly it was the art that turned me off. I didn't like that, for example, Sam's head was like 30 feet long with his hair. And everyone looked like they were made out of wire. When I have to pause to try and figure out who is who or what's going on in a comic panel, it takes me out of the moment... so to speak. Also a lot of the stories seemed... pretty strange. I didn't mind Demon Bear. But then Rahne with the fairy tale story... I didn't care for it. Seemed like a HORRIBLE attempt (to me, mind you!) at trying to sort of capture what X-Men did with "Kitty's Fairytale" which was awesome.

Reading the issues as a kid I hated the art too, but years later I've come to absolutely love Sienkiewicz' art as pure form as my tastes have broadened.
Not saying it always works for superhero stuff, but his Stray Toasters and Hendrix biography are amazing stuff.

[MistressMerr]

Reading the issues as a kid I hated the art too, but years later I've come to absolutely love Sienkiewicz' art as pure form as my tastes have broadened.
Not saying it always works for superhero stuff, but his Stray Toasters and Hendrix biography are amazing stuff.
Yeah, back before I actually sat down and read the issues in question, I was always pretty 'WTF' that they stuck him on that book, but when I actually got around to it, I just fell head over heels in love. It takes me forever just to read those issues, because I'm constantly pausing just to take in a page and make *___* faces at it.

[Legerd]

Isn't that what happened to her? She went human feral.
Also, remember when she had to turn into a wolverine to defeat Wendigo?

Do you mean she took on human traits because she was in human form? If that's what you mean then I'd point out she was half human to begin with and say no.
Yup, I remember when she turned into a wolverine, that's the point I was making about illogical power limitations. What's the reason for designing a character whose main power is to turn into animals that are weaker than her human form while running the risk of losing her mind to that form. However, I'm assuming you're referring to her having taken out the Wendigo in animal form. I see that as one of those moments when the writer wanted to do something "kewl" by having Snowbird "mimic" Wolverine to take down the Wendigo so he could then talk her down from her feral rage. It was less about her and more about playing up Wolverine's backstory.


I get that that'd make it harder to read, but you've got to remember that Byrne didn't create her as a goddess; he didn't know what he wanted her to be when he made her a shapeshifter, and her origin was a retcon. So he couldn't do that.

Also, I've always liked her because she can become animals.

Then he shouldn't have retconned her into a demi-god charged with protecting the world from far more powerful god-like beings as it makes little sense with her powerset and levels, IMO. He could have gone another route with her, but decided on this one.
It's cool that you like her being able to shapechange, I don't mind it either, but it lacks any logic as far as her backstory goes. Besides which, the topic is about what Alpha character(s) we don't like and why. Snowbird is my choice and no one is going to change how I feel about her.

[Tawmis]

Vol.2 - to me it's more "Department H: The Miniseries" with a few guest appearances from Alphans, much like Volume 3 was "What The...?!?:An Alpha Flight Special" and Omega Flight was "Civil War Aftermath - The Initiative: Canada."


Mygawd, that was actually hilarious. :p

[Phil]

Hilarious, yet with a genuine truth and affection.

[Tawmis]

Do you mean she took on human traits because she was in human form? If that's what you mean then I'd point out she was half human to begin with and say no.
Yup, I remember when she turned into a wolverine, that's the point I was making about illogical power limitations. What's the reason for designing a character whose main power is to turn into animals that are weaker than her human form while running the risk of losing her mind to that form. However, I'm assuming you're referring to her having taken out the Wendigo in animal form. I see that as one of those moments when the writer wanted to do something "kewl" by having Snowbird "mimic" Wolverine to take down the Wendigo so he could then talk her down from her feral rage. It was less about her and more about playing up Wolverine's backstory.

Then he shouldn't have retconned her into a demi-god charged with protecting the world from far more powerful god-like beings as it makes little sense with her powerset and levels, IMO. He could have gone another route with her, but decided on this one.
It's cool that you like her being able to shapechange, I don't mind it either, but it lacks any logic as far as her backstory goes. Besides which, the topic is about what Alpha character(s) we don't like and why. Snowbird is my choice and no one is going to change how I feel about her.

I hope no one is trying to "change your mind." My idea, when I made this thread, is that we'd be posting character, that someone else is bound to like. And maybe if someone who was passionate about the character that's named came in to defend them; we might see the character in a different light. So it's not so much about changing the mind, as it is, I would hope, about saying, "Here's some cool things."

For example, currently re-reading Alpha Flight... in Volume One, there's a part where she changes into a Polar Bear to remain undetected by the Master (matching the landscape and other animals)... then she turns into mosquitoes in order to get through some vents to get into the Master's base... I thought those were clever uses of her powers, that she - as Snowbird - could not have done in her human form.

[Le Messor]

I hope no one is trying to "change your mind."

I wasn't, but I've been on the other side of discussions like that often enough to know that it completely comes across that way - which is why my paragraph to Suzene was more 'I understand your position, here's mine'. So, yeah, I'll take the 'heat' on this one (not that it's all that hot. It's only spring.)
Also, Legerd, I was hoping you wouldn't point out that he should've given her a different backstory.

Phil - Yep, that was heartfelt and hilarious! So true.

- Le Messor
"However, if you live alone, deodorant is a waste of good money."

[Legerd]

For example, currently re-reading Alpha Flight... in Volume One, there's a part where she changes into a Polar Bear to remain undetected by the Master (matching the landscape and other animals)... then she turns into mosquitoes in order to get through some vents to get into the Master's base... I thought those were clever uses of her powers, that she - as Snowbird - could not have done in her human form.
You're absolutely right about that, but it still doesn't make sense when it comes to her raison d'etre.


I wasn't, but I've been on the other side of discussions like that often enough to know that it completely comes across that way - which is why my paragraph to Suzene was more 'I understand your position, here's mine'. So, yeah, I'll take the 'heat' on this one (not that it's all that hot. It's only spring.)
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound accusative, it's just I was repeating myself over and over, and wanted to say "my argument ain't gonna change so we might as well let it go".


Also, Legerd, I was hoping you wouldn't point out that he should've given her a different backstory.

LOL, it sounds arrogant of me to say that, but I really think he made a mistake with Snowbird. I do like her, but feel the story logic behind her is flawed which, for me, ruins the character.

[bigbloo]

Yeah, back before I actually sat down and read the issues in question, I was always pretty 'WTF' that they stuck him on that book, but when I actually got around to it, I just fell head over heels in love. It takes me forever just to read those issues, because I'm constantly pausing just to take in a page and make *___* faces at it.

I am a huge fan of Bill Sienkiewicz, and I do the exact same pause and admire routine. I must say a big part of why I loved him in New Mutants was because it was so very different from anything else in comics at that time. :)

Funny thing about me is, once a character shows up in Alpha Flight, I tend to automatically ignore all the irritating thing about them. Hehehe, I guess I'm just blind to the faults of the ones I love. :D

[DIGGER]

Digger, I have to disagree with you on Shaman. At first, I thought Michael Twoyoungmen was very boring...But he was later given a lot of back-story during Byrne's run in Volume 1 (separating himself from his tribe to become a doctor in the "white man's world", losing his wife to cancer, losing his daughter after his wife's death, then finally coming back to his roots. Michael became very multi-layered (he's not just a shaman, he's also a widower, a brilliant surgeon, a father, etc...), where Mac did not....We learned very, very little about Mac during Byrne's run. Who was Mac's family (did he have parents, siblings, etc...)? What formed his life and how did he choose to become a scientist/engineer? Why does he not want to wear the battlesuit and be the hero (he's always tried to put somebody else as leader of Alpha)? Later writers tried to add unnecessary darkness to Mac , I guess in an effort to make him more interesting (like Mantlo indicating Mac was partly responsible for Logan being kidnapped by the Weapon X program and being responsible for the creation of Bedlam), while other writers tried to undo that darkness. He's been written horrible inconsistent with each appearance.

Dana

Dana, I'm not saying Shaman is boring (I think he is a great creation). All I am saying is that he was given a chance to develop as a character whereas Guardian wasn't. The fact that we don't know why he didn't want to be the leader or why he was reluctant to wear the uniform in the first place leaves the door open for more character development. Reed Richards didn't go into space to become a superhero, Tony Stark wasn't a hero until circumstances practically forced him to be. The POTENTIAL IS THERE for Guardian to be so much more than what has been done to date. Perhaps a new Alpha series would help. FYI, the darkest day for me was when Mac showed up in the penultimate issue of vol.1 as the arch nemesis of perspiration, the.....ANTIGUARD. THAT WAS A TOTAL WTF...YGBKM MOMENT.

DIGGER
(sorry for the delay in responding. Damn job)

[cmdrkoenig67]

Dana, I'm not saying Shaman is boring (I think he is a great creation). All I am saying is that he was given a chance to develop as a character whereas Guardian wasn't. The fact that we don't know why he didn't want to be the leader or why he was reluctant to wear the uniform in the first place leaves the door open for more character development. Reed Richards didn't go into space to become a superhero, Tony Stark wasn't a hero until circumstances practically forced him to be. The POTENTIAL IS THERE for Guardian to be so much more than what has been done to date. Perhaps a new Alpha series would help. FYI, the darkest day for me was when Mac showed up in the penultimate issue of vol.1 as the arch nemesis of perspiration, the.....ANTIGUARD. THAT WAS A TOTAL WTF...YGBKM MOMENT.

DIGGER
(sorry for the delay in responding. Damn job)

I totally agree with you about the Antiguard crap...It was lame...In fact, I feel nearly every resurrection of Mac has been horrible and lame...The most recent (in Chaos War) is the only one that feels right to me. Sorry about Shaman...I thought you were indicating he was a boring cliche`. I would love for Mac to be developed more and made into an interesting character...I just feel it's a bit beyond that now (then again, maybe it's never too late?). How many writers have brought Mac back from "death" only to not do anything meaningful with him (besides having him sacrifice himself again and again)? How many writers have explored his character and added to it?

Dana

[Tawmis]

Dana, I'm not saying Shaman is boring (I think he is a great creation). All I am saying is that he was given a chance to develop as a character whereas Guardian wasn't. The fact that we don't know why he didn't want to be the leader or why he was reluctant to wear the uniform in the first place leaves the door open for more character development.

Wait. If you mean why Guardian was reluctant, and why he didn't want to be a leader... this was explained somewhere between issue #1 and 4 of volume 1... The only reason I know this is because I am currently re-reading it (and am on issue #4 right now) - where Guardian says, something to the effect that he is reluctant to wear the armor, because when he went after Wolverine (UXM #109) he almost killed an innocent bystander... and because of that, and how he handled himself, it was something about that he couldn't hardly handle himself, let alone lead a team or something...

[Le Messor]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound accusative, it's just I was repeating myself over and over, and wanted to say "my argument ain't gonna change so we might as well let it go".

Well, thing is, the night before I posted, I was in exactly that sort of conversation, only from your side. I found it just as frustrating.
So I should've known better.

(I was telling the Master that I've found the way comics have been coloured for about the last ten years or so - like there's about half the amount of light there should be - puts me at an emotional distance, and is probably why I've been having a hard time finding anything to connect to. He told me, no, it's a legitimate artistic choice. I told him it's emotionally alienating. He told me 'no, see, this scene takes place at dawn, so everything should be all one colour'. I told him it's emotionally alienating. (And pointed out that the blue jeans he was wearing looked very different to the ones in the comic.) He told me it works for some comics. I told him it's emotionally alienating... ... ... Actually, he seemed to get it at one point, but then kept arguing.)

- Le Messor
"I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met."

[Tawmis]

I don't blame Sasquatch for entering a romantic relationship with Aurora, but for continuing it once her mental illness surfaced. When the Jeanne-Marie personality was dominant in AF #3, she absolutely wanted nothing to do with him, going so far as to strike him and flee when he told her the nature of their relationship. But he was fine with cohabitating with Aurora when she came to him in AF #10 despite that, and they were still together 10+ issues later. Jeanne-Marie Beaubier is the base personality, and just because she wasn't in control of her body or aware of what was being done to it doesn't make it all right -- it's at the heart of what makes the whole thing so skeevy. And even aside from the sexual aspect of the relationship, agreeing to experiment on your mentally unstable, emotionally distraught girlfriend when you don't know what the full effects will be is dodgy enough on an ethical level, but Walt went one step beyond and didn't fully disclose what he assumed those effects would be.
So yeah, no love for Walter from this fangirl.

Sorry to go back on this one - and dig it up - but just passed the issue where Walt does the experiment on Aurora.

First, you say that Jeanne-Marie Beaubier is the base personality. On what is this based? Because it seemed as if that personality developed because of the Hell that she endured at the hands of the Madame DuPont's School for Girls in LaVelle, Quebec (at the hands of the headmistress). And it seems by every means - that she wasn't just "disciplined" - but, as the comic says - severely so - possibly hinting to the point that she was severely ABUSED. It was that abuse that triggered the personality split. (And in order to usually suffer MPD, the person endures a tramatic event that they're mind can't comprehend, so it creates a persona that can handle it). MPD or these days called DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder). This disorder is theoretically linked with the interaction of overwhelming stress, traumatic antecedents, insufficient childhood nurturing, and an innate ability to dissociate memories or experiences from consciousness. A high percentage of patients report child abuse. People diagnosed with DID often report that they have experienced severe physical and sexual abuse, especially during their childhood. (From various sources, including Wiki). So whatever she dealt with at the hands of the headmistress of that school had to be extremely severe, I'd imagine.

So then in the comics, with Aurora, we go five years later, Beaubier's application to become a teacher of history and geography at the school was accepted. By this time, Beaubier had adjusted to life at the school and her everyday personality was that of a prim, proper, repressed woman. Now - her being a prim, proper, repressed woman is no doubt actually because of the abuse she suffered at the hands of the headmistress. The fact that, when she tried to kill herself while in that school and flew, and believed it to be a divine miracle, shows to me a more free spirited side - one who was open to possibilities. But the person we see five years after that, is someone who is strict, prim, proper, and incapable of what I'd say was independent thought. She had become everything the headmistress had shaped her to become - certainly not the person, who I think, she should have become.

I think the Aurora persona is the person she should have grown up to be - had she not suffered extensive abuse. Abuse which shattered her.

I almost believe Walt, listening to Aurora, was doing her a favor. She had asked, because of her OWN fury at Northstar - nothing to do with Sasquatch, or their relationship - to have her powers changed. HE had not requested to do this to her. She had come to him asking him - because of her feud with Northstar - to be made different than her brother.

And Walt, to my knowledge, did not hold out on her. In the issue, where they meet the Gilded Lady - in the boat Aurora notes that she's cold - something she wasn't used to feeling (either that or heat, apparently). She asks if that's one of the other side effects - and he confesses that he doesn't know and that they will have to wait and see what other side effects emerge. So unless it's noted somewhere else, and I am not remembering, Walt didn't hold out - he honestly had no idea what the side effects would be.

He even thinks to himself about how he's concerned. Because of the experiment, how Aurora drastically also changes her costume, chops off her hair (which could almost make me cry - so glad she's drawn with her hair long again!) - that perhaps, this is all about Aurora making sure that the other persona doesn't emerge. And when he notices that her dialogue, while as Aurora, seems to be impersonating the other persona in dialogue (sounding more and more French) - he even thinks and wonders, if there's a merge happening - that the two personas might combine and make what would be a third persona.

So I don't see, after re-reading that issue, what Walt did as all that "skeevy."

[Le Messor]

I'd still say JM is the base personality. She's the one who was in command until the suicide attempt created the Aurora personality - which is why JM didn't remember it when she got back to the school.

- Le Messor
"I bet when the neanderthal kids would make a snowman, someone would always end up saying, “Don’t forget the thick, heavy brows.” Then they would all get embarrassed because they remembered they had the big hunky brows too, and they’d get mad and eat the snowman."
~ Jack Handey

[ClawMaraud]

If any of you men have ever had a relationship with a French Canadian woman you will know that their tempers DO run hot and they strike their men quite ferociously. I never laid a hand on my girlfriend Julie but one time she even grabbed me by the throat during a disagreement we had. I saw her have to consciously back off so she did not squeeze too hard to do any damage.

So, the portrayal of Aurora as a sometimes pissed off woman is quite accurate, as she is a French Canadian woman.

[Tawmis]

Actually, Suzene - if there's someone to dislike about the Aurora thing... I'd think it would be Mac. When Aurora's MPD first presents itself in front of Sasquatch, Walter asks what the heck is happening (Issue #3, I believe? Might have been issue #4?) - and Mac explains that there's no time to explain. And Walter actually seems concerned about why Mac would have Aurora on the team with what is clearly a severe issue. So Mac, seems far more guilty than Walter, for putting Aurora on the team - knowing her condition, and more so not informing his team mates of Aurora's condition (in case it ever popped up, as it did in that issue), which put them all in danger...