Alpha Flight: Huge Stereotypes or not?

[cmdrkoenig67]

I thought we could discuss this...

Shaman, Native Canadian (indian) mystic...Yes, this is an old stereotype...I have to agree on this one.

Sasquatch...The term Sasquatch is also used in the Northwestern United States...It's not just a Canadian term, is it?

Northstar, gay Montreal-er...Is that really a stereotype? Montreal is a more metropolitan city than Quebec city and it has a gay-friendly atmosphere, but was it like that in the 80's too? I don't know.

Aurora, Nun and harlot (via Twyst)...truthfully, I've never seen Aurora as a harlot or a tramp. She only became so, after Mantlo took over the book, when she began to easily throw herself toward anyone when Walter "died" (Bochs, Madison, etc...). She was only every really a nun, many years after Byrne left the book. Figuratively, Jeanne-Marie was "nun-like" in that she was chaste and religious...But I don't see how that makes her a Quebecois stereotype (maybe because I'm not Canadian)? Is the stereotype that all Quebecois women are nun-like or harlots? I don't know.

Puck, named after a hockey-related object...But is he a hockey fan? Maybe he was shown to be later in Volume 1, but Byrne never addressed any hockey obsession that Judd may have had, that I know of.

Snowbird, named after an Anne Murray (A Canadian...Gasp!) song (LOL)?

Major Mapleleaf...Dudley Do-right wannabee? probably, he did seem rather one-dimensional to me.

What qualities make these folks stereotypes? What qualities make them not so steorotypical? Which other Flight characters are stereotypical and why?

What do you all think?

If one really thinks about it....Almost every superhero is a stereotype to some extent...There are "bricks" (super strong, tough types who tend to be big), "blasters" (those who have energy powers), "Mystics" (who use magic in some form or other), The "patriot" (who wears their country's flag and fights for some patriotic ideal), The "speedster", the "brain", the "uber-man", etc, etc...

[Flightpath07]

"Snowbird" is also the squadron of expert pilots, who work for the Canadian military, fly over events, due aerial maneovers and tricks, etcetera.

As far as Aurora being a nun being typical, maybe that is because Quebec has a higher ratio of Catholics than elsewhere in the country?

[Mokole]

Not that stereotypical, Guardian, Vindicator, Puck, ....

[Flightpath07]

Yeah, many of these characters were groundbreaking at their time!

[suzene]

I don't think that Northstar's sexuality was part of a stereotype -- if anything, I think Byrne avoided a lot of hurtful gay stereotypes with Jean-Paul, something that most other writers never managed once he was outed. But his being a snotty francophone and a radical separatist are stereotypes applied to Quebecois.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I don't think that Northstar's sexuality was part of a stereotype -- if anything, I think Byrne avoided a lot of hurtful gay stereotypes with Jean-Paul, something that most other writers never managed once he was outed. But his being a snotty francophone and a radical separatist are stereotypes applied to Quebecois.

Yeah...He wasn't flaming or effeminate, he was strong and into sports and he also apparently liked fights (see issue one). The snotty francophone stereotype is also applied to those from France too. Aurora wasn't snotty, was she? She always seemed friendly and outgoing. So Byrne created a sort of balance there? Byrne touched on Jean Paul's dealings with the Separatists, but I'd hardly call him radical...He left it behind, after all.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

"Snowbird" is also the squadron of expert pilots, who work for the Canadian military, fly over events, due aerial maneovers and tricks, etcetera.

As far as Aurora being a nun being typical, maybe that is because Quebec has a higher ratio of Catholics than elsewhere in the country?

Thanks for the info on the Snowbird Squad, FP...I didn't know about them. If having Jeanne-Marie be Catholic (Aurora must be a lapsed Catholic...LOL) is a stereotype, that's just silly if the majority of Quebecois are Catholic (about 86%, according to canadianchristianity.com)...Odds would be pretty high that the Quebecois (or at least one of two) on the team would be Catholic. On the other hand, Northstar seems to have no religious leanings.

Dana

EDIT: I looked up the Snowbirds...Cool...Akin to the Blue Angels in the States.

[suzene]

Yeah...He wasn't flaming or effeminate, he was strong and into sports and he also apparently liked fights (see issue one). The snotty francophone stereotype is also applied to those from France too. Aurora wasn't snotty, was she? She always seemed friendly and outgoing. So Byrne created a sort of balance there? Byrne touched on Jean Paul's dealings with the Separatists, but I'd hardly call him radical...He left it behind, after all.

Northstar was established as a scrapper literally from his first appearances in UXM, and yeah, he was also quite the jock. Not to say that Byrne avoided gay stereotypes entirely, what with Jean-Paul being supposedly so bad with women. But even though that was the authorial intent, it didn't really carry through in the text -- we didn't see Jean-Paul relating any worse to women than he did to anyone else, and he could even be quite the charmer when need be.

The twins represented a lot of different aspects of Quebec. Aurora was meant to represent two different aspects of the culture -- the large Catholic population and the not-entirely flattering reputation that Quebecois women have for being high-tempered and feisty. And she was quite...friendly. To the point that Heather was getting irritated at her flirtations with Mac. I don't think it was a matter of her being loose, though; I think that she just didn't know any other way to relate to men, given her upbringing. But when it comes down to what she's supposed to represent, that doesn't make the portrayal any kinder, really, especially since it can be taken as calling Quebec a bit schizo.

As above, Northstar got tagged with representing Quebec's language wars and the Separatists. As he was in with the FLQ, so I'd say radical applies, even if it was in his past. He wasn't just for secession, remember, he joined up with the violent fringe and participated in several bombings, only pulling out when it came down to a matter of knowing murder. Again, not the most flattering representation.

None of the above is a deal-breaker for me, but I also can't really fault anyone who'd look at that and be turned off. For example, I originally come from southern Louisiana. I'm familiar with Cajun culture. And so when I see an eye-rolling stereotype like Gambit, I don't really care about what else there is to the character. So far as I'm concerned, learning anything non-incidental about that character involves having to hold my nose going forward. It's simply not an enjoyable prospect, and I can see where the same might be true for someone from Canada reading old school Alpha Flight.

[Le Messor]

If one really thinks about it....Almost every superhero is a stereotype to some extent...There are "bricks" (super strong, tough types who tend to be big), "blasters" (those who have energy powers), "Mystics" (who use magic in some form or other), The "patriot" (who wears their country's flag and fights for some patriotic ideal), The "speedster", the "brain", the "uber-man", etc, etc...

Those are more Archetypes than stereotypes. Also, and HUGELY important for this particular discussion is that none of these apply outside of comics.

- Le Messor
"I didn't think the speed limit applied after midnight"
~ alleged actual response on an insurance form

[cmdrkoenig67]

Northstar was established as a scrapper literally from his first appearances in UXM, and yeah, he was also quite the jock. Not to say that Byrne avoided gay stereotypes entirely, what with Jean-Paul being supposedly so bad with women. But even though that was the authorial intent, it didn't really carry through in the text -- we didn't see Jean-Paul relating any worse to women than he did to anyone else, and he could even be quite the charmer when need be.

I don't recall him being mentioned as being bad with women...I just recall Mac saying Jean Paul didn't have much interest in them.


The twins represented a lot of different aspects of Quebec. Aurora was meant to represent two different aspects of the culture -- the large Catholic population and the not-entirely flattering reputation that Quebecois women have for being high-tempered and feisty. And she was quite...friendly. To the point that Heather was getting irritated at her flirtations with Mac. I don't think it was a matter of her being loose, though; I think that she just didn't know any other way to relate to men, given her upbringing. But when it comes down to what she's supposed to represent, that doesn't make the portrayal any kinder, really, especially since it can be taken as calling Quebec a bit schizo.

Ah...Good points, Suz.


As above, Northstar got tagged with representing Quebec's language wars and the Separatists. As he was in with the FLQ, so I'd say radical applies, even if it was in his past. He wasn't just for secession, remember, he joined up with the violent fringe and participated in several bombings, only pulling out when it came down to a matter of knowing murder. Again, not the most flattering representation.

But it certainly added a layer to his character.


None of the above is a deal-breaker for me, but I also can't really fault anyone who'd look at that and be turned off. For example, I originally come from southern Louisiana. I'm familiar with Cajun culture. And so when I see an eye-rolling stereotype like Gambit, I don't really care about what else there is to the character. So far as I'm concerned, learning anything non-incidental about that character involves having to hold my nose going forward. It's simply not an enjoyable prospect, and I can see where the same might be true for someone from Canada reading old school Alpha Flight.

I hear ya.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Those are more Archetypes than stereotypes. Also, and HUGELY important for this particular discussion is that none of these apply outside of comics.

- Le Messor
"I didn't think the speed limit applied after midnight"
~ alleged actual response on an insurance form

True, M...I have heard them referred to as comic book stereotypes before, perhaps by somebody using the wrong term.

Dana

[suzene]

I don't recall him being mentioned as being bad with women...I just recall Mac saying Jean Paul didn't have much interest in them.

Mac said he didn't have much interest in them, but that also goes along with Heather doing the whole "He went scouting with a woman? They'll kill each other!" in the AF/XM cross-over, and Aurora being shocked -- shocked! -- to find Jean-Paul in the company of a woman in AF #22. Byrne's also stated in interviews discussing the character how Northstar was very bad at relating to women. It's not the worst of the stereotypical assumptions out there, that liking men means you hate/don't get on with women, but it is still an assumption rooted in homophobia and misogyny, and I'm glad it didn't come through any stronger in the actual work.

[Le Messor]

Mac said he didn't have much interest in them, but that also goes along with Heather doing the whole "He went scouting with a woman? They'll kill each other!" in the AF/XM cross-over, and Aurora being shocked -- shocked! -- to find Jean-Paul in the company of a woman in AF #22. Byrne's also stated in interviews discussing the character how Northstar was very bad at relating to women. It's not the worst of the stereotypical assumptions out there, that liking men means you hate/don't get on with women, but it is still an assumption rooted in homophobia and misogyny, and I'm glad it didn't come through any stronger in the actual work.

Didn't the people who started this thread all like the frist AF/XM cross-over, though? (Not Dana, the ones whose podcast got this discussion going.)
Also, I thought they'd kill each other because he'd be mad she just sucked the life out of him. Literally - this is Rogue we're talking about. I'd think N'star would be really unhappy to know somebody has all his secrets.

Northstar's always in the company of women - note that he lives with one, as seen in the pictures of his house.

Also, I've always thought the stereotype was that gay men got along better with women than straight men. Partly because they're less nervous, 'coz what do they care? (Nervousness around women is usually because a guy really wants to make a good impression, and doesn't know how to do it.) Partly because they're usually talking to women's faces and not their tits.

- Le Messor
"I distinctly remember forgetting that."
~ Clara Barton

[suzene]

Didn't the people who started this thread all like the frist AF/XM cross-over, though? (Not Dana, the ones whose podcast got this discussion going.)

I'm honestly not sure what that's got to do with the current discussion. Their gripe seemed to be that AF were all Canadian stereotypes, but we're on homosexual tropes/stereotypes in general now.


Also, I thought they'd kill each other because he'd be mad she just sucked the life out of him. Literally - this is Rogue we're talking about. I'd think N'star would be really unhappy to know somebody has all his secrets.And if Heather had just said "He's scouting with her?! They'll kill each other!" the statement would read as perfectly innocuous, given what had just happened. But:

Heather: Jean-Paul teamed with a woman??!? Especially with her?!? Logan, they'll kill each other!

So the implication is that Jean-Paul does not like women in general, and that he just has especial reason to hate Rogue.


Northstar's always in the company of women - note that he lives with one, as seen in the pictures of his house.All that conclusively proves is that he can stand to be under the same roof as a female guest. Though, personally, I agree with you on that point -- like I said, I don't think the authorial intent comes across that well in the text, though there's enough of that sentiment there to be noted. And it goes right into "Wait, what?" territory when you read Byrne's comments on "Northstar's boyfriend and Northstar's boyfriend's girlfriend". Never before have I hated the ACC so very much.

Of course, the other way to read it, seeing as we don't actually see Jean-Paul display the qualities that are being insinuated, is that Heather and Jeanne-Marie are assuming stereotypes about Jean-Paul and don't know him well enough to know that they're not true.


Also, I've always thought the stereotype was that gay men got along better with women than straight men. Partly because they're less nervous, 'coz what do they care? (Nervousness around women is usually because a guy really wants to make a good impression, and doesn't know how to do it.) Partly because they're usually talking to women's faces and not their tits.There can be more than one stereotype about an oppressed group, and they often change with time. The idea that gay men are usually "just one of the girls" is, relatively speaking, a more recent one that caught on as gay culture became more mainstream. On the one hand, it was seen as progressive and open-minded to put more visible gay characters in TV and movies, on the other, no one holding the purse strings wanted to risk making their perceived audience uncomfortable, and so you wound up with the idea that the best way to make gay male characters non-threatening as possible is to lump them in with the women.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Yeah...Many gay men enjoy being around women, while some aren't that comfortable with them, but I've met a few gay guys who can't stand women simply because they are women (I choose not to associate with people like that, though). In the end though, Jean Paul and Rogue began to get along quite well.

Speaking of Rhonda (Northstar's "boyfriend's girlfriend" or room-mate as I thought I had read her to be somewhere)...Maybe she was once a he...You never know.

Heather's comment in X/Alpha was Claremont's doing...But good point, Suzene about Jeanne-Marie in #22 (wasn't it actually JM and not Aurora that was shocked about Clementine?).

Dana

[suzene]

Speaking of Rhonda (Northstar's "boyfriend's girlfriend" or room-mate as I thought I had read her to be somewhere)...Maybe she was once a he...You never know.

Or maybe Northstar's boyfriend didn't mind being in the middle, or maybe Northstar didn't mind doing doing favors. After all, identifying as gay doesn't mean you become physically incapable of pleasuring the opposite sex.

Weirdly enough, though, Byrne was referring to Clementine with that comment. But I guess that would certainly explain why she felt familiar enough with Jean-Paul to tackle him in a kiss the minute she saw him.


Heather's comment in X/Alpha was Claremont's doing...But good point, Suzene about Jeanne-Marie in #22 (wasn't it actually JM and not Aurora that was shocked about Clementine?).Nope. JM was in control up until the point she passed out, but when she woke up, Aurora was in control and had no idea what was going on. I always wondered whether or not JM actually knew Northstar was gay back in the early days, or if that was something Aurora kept to herself.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Or maybe Northstar's boyfriend didn't mind being in the middle, or maybe Northstar didn't mind doing doing favors. After all, identifying as gay doesn't mean you become physically incapable of pleasuring the opposite sex.

Weirdly enough, though, Byrne was referring to Clementine with that comment. But I guess that would certainly explain why she felt familiar enough with Jean-Paul to tackle him in a kiss the minute she saw him.

Nope. JM was in control up until the point she passed out, but when she woke up, Aurora was in control and had no idea what was going on. I always wondered whether or not JM actually knew Northstar was gay back in the early days, or if that was something Aurora kept to herself.

I doubt Jeanne-Marie knew then...She was a bit naive in those days.

Dana

[DIGGER]

Northstar and Aurora didn't know of each other until they were in their late teens/early 20's, right? I don't know if she could be called naive but rather ignorant or oblivious to her newfound siblings lifestyle. As for the stereotype topic, the logic behind the characters and their names/powers is just that...logical. If a Sarcee male were to become a doctor, who also still had strong generational ties would he not be called a Shaman? If a scientist does an experiment on himself and were to turn into a giant hairy creature, wouldn't he take the name Sasquatch (after all Walt calls himself that after he hears the description of himself in the giant hairy creature form)? I don't think of them as being stereotypical but rather like 1+1=2...logical.

DIGGER

[Tawmis]

On another forum, when I was promoting the ALPHA FLIGHT review I did - someone on the forum had said that Alpha Flight suffered from stereo types (http://sierrahelp.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=23580#p23580)... But I am not entirely sure how familiar the person is with Alpha Flight.

[Le Messor]

Cool bit of cross-promotion there!
That's a gaming forum, right?

- Le Messor
"I don't have problems; I have puzzles."
~ Mark T. Shirey

[Tawmis]

Cool bit of cross-promotion there!
That's a gaming forum, right?


Aye, I co-admin the forum. But yeah, I pretty much posted about ALPHA FLIGHT everywhere I could.

[marvelboy74]

Speaking as a gay man, though I wasn't Northstar's age in the 80s, I can understand much of Northstar's personality and quirks. He may not have hated women, but if he was well known as an athlete, he probably had women throwing themselves at him and perhaps he grew to dislike women who did that. Kara did have a crush on JP when she was first introduced. I doubt Northstar hated all women. Generally, gay men don't hate women these days, I like to have gay male friends. I have some straight women friends and not really any straight male friends (relegating most as acquaintances). The reason for this? It's just with whom I may have the most in common. I don't really care about any professional or college sports, and no, I'm not saying women can't be into sports, but there generally are less women who are as fervent as men when "their team" plays. Being into sports, JP may not have had much in common with women. I would suspect that JP probably also had some unrequited crushes on some of his Olympic teammates and such so he may have preferred the company of men that way. Also, he may have been known to hang out with other "confirmed bachelors."

Northstar's overall beligerance may have been because he was closeted. It sounds like his bf was also closeted. Remember, this is the 80s but over 25 years later, we still have married men who have homosexual relations on the side. Northstar probably was raised Catholic but no doubt like many gay men, he felt alienated by the church and stopped practicing.

I find that Byrne probably did the best job of writing a gay male character. There are very few straight male comic writers who are able to write a gay male character well. Kurt Busiek is the only other name that comes to mind.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I find that Byrne probably did the best job of writing a gay male character. There are very few straight male comic writers who are able to write a gay male character well. Kurt Busiek is the only other name that comes to mind.

Indeed, we all know that Bill Mantlo was a very bad writer of a gay character...When he took Alpha over, he instantly made Jean Paul sick and wanted to do an AIDS story....Ugh. Again I'll say, I'm glad the powers that be at the time said no to the storyline. Instead , Mantlo made Northstar sick because he was a fairy...Subtle. :rolleyes:

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Northstar and Aurora didn't know of each other until they were in their late teens/early 20's, right? I don't know if she could be called naive but rather ignorant or oblivious to her newfound siblings lifestyle. As for the stereotype topic, the logic behind the characters and their names/powers is just that...logical. If a Sarcee male were to become a doctor, who also still had strong generational ties would he not be called a Shaman? If a scientist does an experiment on himself and were to turn into a giant hairy creature, wouldn't he take the name Sasquatch (after all Walt calls himself that after he hears the description of himself in the giant hairy creature form)? I don't think of them as being stereotypical but rather like 1+1=2...logical.

DIGGER

I agree Dig...We know that Mr Byrne didn't really have much in the way of back-story for most of the team before they got their own series, but I think he filled out their histories pretty well, once Alpha Flight vol 1 got going.

Dana

[suzene]

Northstar's overall beligerance may have been because he was closeted. It sounds like his bf was also closeted. Remember, this is the 80s but over 25 years later, we still have married men who have homosexual relations on the side. Northstar probably was raised Catholic but no doubt like many gay men, he felt alienated by the church and stopped practicing.

I've never agreed with the interpretation of Northstar as closeted, simply because he's never been shown to deny his sexuality and everyone around him seemed to know he was gay -- his teammates remark underhand on his sexuality almost from the first issue of Alpha Flight. I never put a lot of stock in the idea that you have to hold a literal press conference on the subject of being gay to count as out. I particularly don't agree with writers like Lobdell who attribute Northstar's overall bad attitude to the idea that he was gay/closeted. The hardships that Northstar underwent in his early life, for example, have nothing to do with his sexuality, but would be more than enough to put a chip on someone's shoulder, not to mention that Northstar also had a mentor to help him come to terms with his homosexuality -- it's probably one of the very few challenges of his early life that he didn't have to deal with alone.

This isn't to say that I think a lack of societal acceptance of his sexuality didn't contribute at all to his general snarkiness, but Lobdell's assessment glosses over the fact JP is a triple minority who had one hell of a rough start in life; finally found fame and fortune, then gave it up for a life he didn't want for the sake of a sister he never knew and who rarely seemed willing to sacrifice as much for him as he was for her; and has watched almost everyone he ever cared for die, often right in front of his eyes while being helpless to stop it. To then attribute all of his defensiveness and bad attitude to one aspect of his being flattened a very complex character, and was the first step in turning him from Jean-Paul Beaubier, former Olympian, homosexual, and reluctant hero, into The Gay One.

[suzene]

Indeed, we all know that Bill Mantlo was a very bad writer of a gay character...When he took Alpha over, he instantly made Jean Paul sick and wanted to do an AIDS story....Ugh. Again I'll say, I'm glad the powers that be at the time said no to the storyline. Instead , Mantlo made Northstar sick because he was a fairy...Subtle. :rolleyes:

Dana

100% agreement here. I was done with Mantlo when he had Heather cracking homophobic rape jokes. I know this was the 80's but seriously?! I couldn't believe the editors let that stay in.

[marvelboy74]

I've never agreed with the interpretation of Northstar as closeted, simply because he's never been shown to deny his sexuality and everyone around him seemed to know he was gay -- his teammates remark underhand on his sexuality almost from the first issue of Alpha Flight. I never put a lot of stock in the idea that you have to hold a literal press conference on the subject of being gay to count as out. I particularly don't agree with writers like Lobdell who attribute Northstar's overall bad attitude to the idea that he was gay/closeted. The hardships that Northstar underwent in his early life have nothing to do with his sexuality, but would be more than enough to put a chip on someone's shoulder, not to mention that Northstar also had a mentor to help him come to terms with his homosexuality -- it's probably one of the very few challenges of his life that he didn't have to deal with alone.

This isn't to say that I think a lack of societal acceptance of his sexuality didn't contribute at all to his general snarkiness, but Lobdell's assessment glosses over the fact JP is a triple minority who had one hell of a rough start in life; finally found fame and fortune, then gave it up for a life he didn't want for the sake of a sister he never knew and who rarely seemed willing to sacrifice as much for him as he was for her; and has watched almost everyone he ever cared for die, often right in front of his eyes while being helpless to stop it. To then attribute all of his defensiveness and bad attitude to one aspect of his being flattened a very complex character, and was the first step in turning him from Jean-Paul Beaubier, former Olympian, homosexual, and reluctant hero, into The Gay One.

And maybe we'll have to disagree on this one. While Canada is more progressive than the US in many ways, adopting equal protection laws in 1985, changes in legislature do not equate into changes of attitude. I knew a man once from Canada who would have been in his 20s during the 80s, yet still ended up marrying and divorcing a woman by the time he reached his 30s. Despite the pioneering of lesbian chanteuse Carole Pope, kd lang did not come out until 92, 6 years after she had her recording contract. I would lay odds that those closest to kd knew she was gay though she had not publicly come out. Again, Kara did not know that he was gay so JP had never publicly admitted his homosexuality, though he apparently acknowledged it, had accepted it and was comfortable in disclosing it to his teammate.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Yeah...Northstar/Jean Paul was closeted (to most of the world)...All the way up to his public "coming out" in the heat of battle with Major Mapleleaf in #106...Ugh.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

100% agreement here. I was done with Mantlo when he had Heather cracking homophobic rape jokes. I know this was the 80's but seriously?! I couldn't believe the editors let that stay in.

Imagine the stereotype that Northstar would have become had Mantlo been given the go-ahead with his AIDS story...Ugh (again). Suzene, where did Heather make such a joke? I find that disturbing and I don't recall where it took place (maybe I blocked it out?).

Dana

BTW: Didn't Marvel "establish" in the X-books that Mutants can't get HIV or AIDS?

[marvelboy74]

Imagine the stereotype that Northstar would have become had Mantlo been given the go-ahead with his AIDS story...Ugh (again). Suzene, where did Heather make such a joke? I find that disturbing and I don't recall where it took place (maybe I blocked it out?).

Dana

BTW: Didn't Marvel "establish" in the X-books that Mutants can't get HIV or AIDS?

Dana, I'm not sure that was ever explicitly stated. Since Northstar was never explicitly confirmed to be gay, it doesn't make sense to give him HIV, unless it would have been Northstar's coming out story. I guess if it would have been an overall positive message story it would have been acceptable. Even thought the Jim Wilson/Hulk story was handled well, I would have prefer to have seen the first HIV comics story have been done with a straight white male. Shadowhawk was also black, Speedy is a female, Extrano was hispanic, Jim Wilson was black. I realize I am digressing off the topic.

I think one of the main complaints that can be made about AF was that aside from the TwoYoungMens, everyone was white. The introduction of the Chinese characters was a great nod to Canada's large population. Laura Dean was the first black character in AF but rather than show any of the diversity of Canada and make her Jamaican, they were American. V2 characters were all white. V3 did intro Yukon Jack as a faux First Nations character. Puck II had an Asian mother but other than that, we know nothing of her ethnic origins.

[suzene]

Imagine the stereotype that Northstar would have become had Mantlo been given the go-ahead with his AIDS story...Ugh (again). Suzene, where did Heather make such a joke? I find that disturbing and I don't recall where it took place (maybe I blocked it out?).

AF #42. When Northstar says that he feels raped due to Kara's violation of his will, Heather cracks back "And by a woman! No wonder you're upset!" I'd either forgotten or it went over my head the first time I read it, but when I did a close re-read of the series a couple of years back, it leapt out at me. As a woman, I don't find rape dismissal and/or jokes funny. As a queer woman, the added homophobic undertone made that a serious "Oh, **** you, Mantlo" moment.


BTW: Didn't Marvel "establish" in the X-books that Mutants can't get HIV or AIDS?Yeah, Chuck Austen had Husk say that during his X-Men run, but the writers haven't touched on it since. I can't say that I'm sorry about that; there's a lot about that guy's writing I'd prefer be forgotten. I guess it all depends on where your personal canon stands regarding the Mantlo story -- since it was established that Loki was a lying liar who lied about the Beabuier twins' ancestry, one way to read it is that Northstar did have AIDS, Aurora cured him, and Austen is full of it. Not that Austen seemed to do a lot of research on the characters he was using -- this is the guy that decided to make Nightcrawler the son of the devil and gave twice-orphaned Northstar an after-school special homophobic zombie dad.

[suzene]

I think one of the main complaints that can be made about AF was that aside from the TwoYoungMens, everyone was white. The introduction of the Chinese characters was a great nod to Canada's large population. Laura Dean was the first black character in AF but rather than show any of the diversity of Canada and make her Jamaican, they were American. V2 characters were all white. V3 did intro Yukon Jack as a faux First Nations character. Puck II had an Asian mother but other than that, we know nothing of her ethnic origins.

That's a complaint that's made about most superhero teams coming out of the Big Two, yeah -- you get the occasional nod to racial/religious/sexual/gender diversity, but it is an overwhelmingly a genre populated by white, straight characters because so many of the creative teams are straight, white men who are writing characters they can relate to. And a lot of the attempts writers do make at diversity fall down flat in the details. For example, even as recently as the Chaos War: AF one-shot, we still have Shaman being referred to as Sarcee, which is actually an insult. And even then, these new characters wind up being the first ones on the chopping block when the next writers to come along decide they need easy angst.

One of the reasons I liked DC before they had an unfortunate spate of killing off minority characters was because Didio really put his weight behind Blue Beetle and Manhunter, two books with well-written, diverse casts that the EiC championed even though they didn't have stellar sales.

[marvelboy74]

That's a complaint that's made about most superhero teams coming out of the Big Two, yeah -- you get the occasional nod to racial/religious/sexual/gender diversity, but it is an overwhelmingly a genre populated by white, straight characters because so many of the creative teams are straight, white men who are writing characters they can relate to. And a lot of the attempts writers do make at diversity fall down flat in the details. For example, even as recently as the Chaos War: AF one-shot, we still have Shaman being referred to as Sarcee, which is actually an insult. And even then, these new characters wind up being the first ones on the chopping block when the next writers to come along decide they need easy angst.

One of the reasons I liked DC before they had an unfortunate spate of killing off minority characters was because Didio really put his weight behind Blue Beetle and Manhunter, two books with well-written, diverse casts that the EiC championed even though they didn't have stellar sales.

Unfortunately, DC seems to go through this phase of creating minority characters and killing them then.

[suzene]

Unfortunately, DC seems to go through this phase of creating minority characters and killing them then.

Yeah. I think the issue is that some of the writers are quite aware of the prevalence of stereotypes and the under-representation of minorities and do their best to address the problem, but they run into issues with edicts from the higher-ups. So, using DC as an example, they fold in the Milestone line, we get a Chinese Atom, a Latino Blue Beetle, a black Firestorm, a Latina, lesbian Question, a gay Batwoman, multi-racial characters like Kyle/GL, the new Robin, and Cass Cain, and greater exposure for some established minority characters, like Pied Piper or Obsidian (with "greater exposure" being relative to what they had before, admittedly). So on the one hand, we do have the writers making a good-faith effort, even if they do fall down on the research sometimes. But then we have an issue with most "iconic" versions of the characters being white characters so then other writers get set to the task of handing the mantles back: Cass Cain gets passed over in favor of a paler, more merchandisable Batgirl; the new Atom gets horribly killed so the old Atom can have the name again (and never mind that there are a zillion Bats out there, obviously we can only have one Atom); the Green Lantern movie stars Hal Jordan, despite an entire generation of movie-goers having grown up with John Stewart as "their" GL from the DCAU; Firestorm gets his old body back; multi-racial characters get whitewashed, etc. So it's often very much a two steps forward, one-point-five steps back deal.

I think Marvel fares a little better in this respect, due to the fact that they have relatively few legacy characters and (recent Spidey-books excepted) less issue with giving old characters new identities or sharing current ones (re: Captain America, Hawkeye, Wolverine, etc.), and are more likely to quietly shuffle new characters off into limbo than kill them off outright. That's a big point in their favor, IMO. Despite their being able to claim the first mainstream gay superhero in Northstar, however, I do think that Marvel's quite a bit more homo-skittish than DC, and that does tend to grate after a while, given my own identity. Usually it comes down to both companies annoying me enough in different ways on this front that I just buy creator-owned unless I'm being made an offer I can't refuse.

[Le Messor]

multi-racial characters like Kyle/GL, the new Robin,


They ARE?!? I didn't get that.
I mean, I know technically Damien has an Arabic mother, but it really doesn't come across.

- Le Messor
"I don't trust him. He has no nasal hair."
~ Bernard Black

[suzene]

Yeah. Kyle's Rayner's dad is hispanic and, as you said, Damien is of the Ah Gul line. It's a tricky subject to portray -- language and culture don't automatically come as part of a package with race, particularly if a character's the offspring of parents who did their best to assimilate (not the case with Damien, of course, but still...).

[DMK]

I think in a number of ways the team reflected Canadian realities more then stereotypes. Mac Hudson created his suit for geological exploration. Fast-forward 30+ years, and the Alberta oil and gas scene is bigger then ever.

Jean-Paul and Jeanne-Marie, were, admittedly, created so the team would have a Quebecois element. I believe the quote was "The twins were there to be French." Still, not exactly stereotypes. Northstar's arrogance was somewhat... I believe Byrne may have based his attitude on Trudeau's. But his profession was atypical, his attitude towards his powers definitely so, and the way his sexuality has been handled has been, for the most part, free of stereotypes.

Aurora's joie-de-vivre might fit a stereotype, but that aspect of her was quickly overshadowed by the exploration of her mental problems.

Sasquatch doesn't really fit any stereotypes. A brilliant biochemist who excelled in football? Not your typical combination.

Shaman comes pretty close, I gotta admit. But Byrne broadened him nicely with the surgical background. I did like the throwaway of other people's prejudices "I hear he gave up real medicine and went back to the reservation." Sheesh.

Snowbird... doesn't fit anywhere.

Heather certainly doesn't fit any stereotypes. We have an uneducated (remember, Heather has at most a GED) woman who worked her way up to become the Executive Assistant to a major petrochem executive and then went on to lead her husband's super-hero team better then he did.

Anyways, just rambling. :D

[cmdrkoenig67]

Dana, I'm not sure that was ever explicitly stated. Since Northstar was never explicitly confirmed to be gay, it doesn't make sense to give him HIV, unless it would have been Northstar's coming out story. I guess if it would have been an overall positive message story it would have been acceptable. Even thought the Jim Wilson/Hulk story was handled well, I would have prefer to have seen the first HIV comics story have been done with a straight white male. Shadowhawk was also black, Speedy is a female, Extrano was hispanic, Jim Wilson was black. I realize I am digressing off the topic.

I think one of the main complaints that can be made about AF was that aside from the TwoYoungMens, everyone was white. The introduction of the Chinese characters was a great nod to Canada's large population. Laura Dean was the first black character in AF but rather than show any of the diversity of Canada and make her Jamaican, they were American. V2 characters were all white. V3 did intro Yukon Jack as a faux First Nations character. Puck II had an Asian mother but other than that, we know nothing of her ethnic origins.

I have to point out that I don't think Murmur from vol 2 was meant to be white (you stated the volume 2 cast were all white)...I believe she was meant to be of mixed ethnicity. Silver and Auric weren't Canadian (were they?), though...I thought they were Chinese citizens who sought asylum in Canada? Windshear was black and Canadian, but was living in the States, when he joined Alpha, he was raised mostly in England, but I don't think it was ever stated that he was a citizen of the UK (and he even returned to England after leaving Alpha). I also think Laura and Goblyn were Canadian-born and their parents left them (or technically Laura) at Lionel's clinic and moved to the States (they were really horrible people).

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

AF #42. When Northstar says that he feels raped due to Kara's violation of his will, Heather cracks back "And by a woman! No wonder you're upset!" I'd either forgotten or it went over my head the first time I read it, but when I did a close re-read of the series a couple of years back, it leapt out at me. As a woman, I don't find rape dismissal and/or jokes funny. As a queer woman, the added homophobic undertone made that a serious "Oh, **** you, Mantlo" moment.

Yeah, Chuck Austen had Husk say that during his X-Men run, but the writers haven't touched on it since. I can't say that I'm sorry about that; there's a lot about that guy's writing I'd prefer be forgotten. I guess it all depends on where your personal canon stands regarding the Mantlo story -- since it was established that Loki was a lying liar who lied about the Beabuier twins' ancestry, one way to read it is that Northstar did have AIDS, Aurora cured him, and Austen is full of it. Not that Austen seemed to do a lot of research on the characters he was using -- this is the guy that decided to make Nightcrawler the son of the devil and gave twice-orphaned Northstar an after-school special homophobic zombie dad.

Argh...Yeah, I recall Austen's run with disgust...Wow, that was some bad stuff. Thank you for clearing up the Heather making rape jokes thing....I recall those words now...Ick! Austen gave Jean Paul a zombie homophobic dad??! This, I did not know...Argh again!

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Yeah. I think the issue is that some of the writers are quite aware of the prevalence of stereotypes and the under-representation of minorities and do their best to address the problem, but they run into issues with edicts from the higher-ups. So, using DC as an example, they fold in the Milestone line, we get a Chinese Atom, a Latino Blue Beetle, a black Firestorm, a Latina, lesbian Question, a gay Batwoman, multi-racial characters like Kyle/GL, the new Robin, and Cass Cain, and greater exposure for some established minority characters, like Pied Piper or Obsidian (with "greater exposure" being relative to what they had before, admittedly). So on the one hand, we do have the writers making a good-faith effort, even if they do fall down on the research sometimes. But then we have an issue with most "iconic" versions of the characters being white characters so then other writers get set to the task of handing the mantles back: Cass Cain gets passed over in favor of a paler, more merchandisable Batgirl; the new Atom gets horribly killed so the old Atom can have the name again (and never mind that there are a zillion Bats out there, obviously we can only have one Atom); the Green Lantern movie stars Hal Jordan, despite an entire generation of movie-goers having grown up with John Stewart as "their" GL from the DCAU; Firestorm gets his old body back; multi-racial characters get whitewashed, etc. So it's often very much a two steps forward, one-point-five steps back deal.

I think Marvel fares a little better in this respect, due to the fact that they have relatively few legacy characters and (recent Spidey-books excepted) less issue with giving old characters new identities or sharing current ones (re: Captain America, Hawkeye, Wolverine, etc.), and are more likely to quietly shuffle new characters off into limbo than kill them off outright. That's a big point in their favor, IMO. Despite their being able to claim the first mainstream gay superhero in Northstar, however, I do think that Marvel's quite a bit more homo-skittish than DC, and that does tend to grate after a while, given my own identity. Usually it comes down to both companies annoying me enough in different ways on this front that I just buy creator-owned unless I'm being made an offer I can't refuse.

I don't know if Marvel is gay gun-shy really...I mean, there are writers who are pushing the boundries...Like Peter David in X-Factor with Shatterstar and Rictor being revealed as lovers (I don't read the book, but I thought it was a great revelation...And it pisses off Rob Liefeld...LOL!)....Oh...And the writer that brought us Wiccan and Hulkling? I don't know..To me, it seems like Marvel is trying.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

I think in a number of ways the team reflected Canadian realities more then stereotypes. Mac Hudson created his suit for geological exploration. Fast-forward 30+ years, and the Alberta oil and gas scene is bigger then ever.

Jean-Paul and Jeanne-Marie, were, admittedly, created so the team would have a Quebecois element. I believe the quote was "The twins were there to be French." Still, not exactly stereotypes. Northstar's arrogance was somewhat... I believe Byrne may have based his attitude on Trudeau's. But his profession was atypical, his attitude towards his powers definitely so, and the way his sexuality has been handled has been, for the most part, free of stereotypes.

I would agree, whole-heartedly.



Aurora's joie-de-vivre might fit a stereotype, but that aspect of her was quickly overshadowed by the exploration of her mental problems.

Sasquatch doesn't really fit any stereotypes. A brilliant biochemist who excelled in football? Not your typical combination.

Shaman comes pretty close, I gotta admit. But Byrne broadened him nicely with the surgical background. I did like the throwaway of other people's prejudices "I hear he gave up real medicine and went back to the reservation." Sheesh.

Oh yeah, the comment the other MDs made about him, right?


Snowbird... doesn't fit anywhere.

Heather certainly doesn't fit any stereotypes. We have an uneducated (remember, Heather has at most a GED) woman who worked her way up to become the Executive Assistant to a major petrochem executive and then went on to lead her husband's super-hero team better then he did.

Anyways, just rambling. :D

Somebody mentioned somewhere, that Heather was a typical stereotype of an Albertan....I have no idea what that means, though. I could swear that it was mentioned that Heather finished school early (graduated early or something), during Byrne's run...She only has the equivalent of a GED?

Dana

[suzene]

Argh...Yeah, I recall Austen's run with disgust...Wow, that was some bad stuff. Thank you for clearing up the Heather making rape jokes thing....I recall those words now...Ick! Austen gave Jean Paul a zombie homophobic dad??! This, I did not know...Argh again!

Not literally -- it's how I refer to Northstar confiding to another character that his father almost killed him when he came out. Considering that Northstar's birth parents died when he was a baby, the people he thought were his biological parents died when he was six, he was never formally adopted by another family (and might not have even been with one family for very long after he was orphaned again), and Raymonde was gay himself, it's not a statement that makes a lot of sense. So one of the ways some of us Northstar fans on another board would mock Austen's run was to pretend to flee in terror from Northstar's dad, risen from the grave to disapprove of his son's lifestyle.

Look, it was more fun than Austen's writing, OK? ;)

[Le Messor]

flee in terror from Northstar's dad, risen from the grave

Like Joan Crawford!

[MistressMerr]

Not literally -- it's how I refer to Northstar confiding to another character that his father almost killed him when he came out. Considering that Northstar's birth parents died when he was a baby, the people he thought were his biological parents died when he was six, he was never formally adopted by another family (and might not have even been with one family for very long after he was orphaned again), and Raymonde was gay himself, it's not a statement that makes a lot of sense. So one of the ways some of us Northstar fans on another board would mock Austen's run was to pretend to flee in terror from Northstar's dad, risen from the grave to disapprove of his son's lifestyle.

Look, it was more fun than Austen's writing, OK? ;)

Maybe he came out in preschool? XD

[cmdrkoenig67]

Like Joan Crawford!

Joan Crawford rose from the grave? Where was I when this happened?

Dana

[Le Messor]

Joan Crawford rose from the grave? Where was I when this happened?

I don't know where you were, but the Catholic high school girls were putting on their mascara at the time.

- Le Messor
"I don't want to die; existence is one of my strong points!"

[DMK]

I could swear that it was mentioned that Heather finished school early (graduated early or something), during Byrne's run...She only has the equivalent of a GED?I should dig out my Byrne issues. I'm almost positive nothing was mentioned of Heather graduating early. Starting work for Am-Can early, definitely.