Chaos War #5 - Spoilers within

[rplass]

I'm putting in spoiler space anyway for those who don't read so carefully

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Spoiler had a little lamb..


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Good news, after a good fight, and a snappy line from Guardian (the rocket scientist one), Alpha Flight remains alive!

HEAD EXPLODE

My head just exploded again. YAY!

:):):):):):):):):):):)

Poor Puck, Puck Jr and and Major Maple Leaf, though, but Cap says "Look who's not dead anymore" then Guardian says, "Whoa! We're still here?" Then who I think is Luke Cage says, "Solid." Shaman and Marrina are shown, not Heather though. Pretty sure she made it too from Mac's response.

Love,
rplass

[-K-M-]

Did the rest of the Dead Avengers return? Or just Yellowjacket and Swordsman? who were the only ones alive at the end of their mini

[rplass]

Hey this is alphaflight.net not deadavengers.net

Just kidding!

I didn't check the rest of the book. Honestly I just flipped to the end to see what happened to AF!

[-K-M-]

well played rplass, well played indeed :P

[MistressMerr]

Did the rest of the Dead Avengers return? Or just Yellowjacket and Swordsman? who were the only ones alive at the end of their mini
I haven't read it yet, so I could obviously be wrong, but I'm pretty sure everyone else who came back went back to being dead. AF was special because of the whole deal with the Great Beasts, I'm guessing.

BRB being heartbroken over Banshee some more.

[Bill P]

Is this issue worth getting as an Alpha appearance? Or are they just in a panel or two, with a couple of lines of dialogue?

[suzene]

I haven't read it yet, so I could obviously be wrong, but I'm pretty sure everyone else who came back went back to being dead. AF was special because of the whole deal with the Great Beasts, I'm guessing.

BRB being heartbroken over Banshee some more.

*joins Merr with tea and cookies*

[-K-M-]

I wonder if the eyeball Chaos King cover ever went to print...unlikely, but would be a cool collectable.
http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/5/f0/4c2500328d7ec/detail.jpghttp://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101025153616/marveldatabase/images/9/92/Chaos_War_Vol_1_5_Textless.jpg

[Flightpath07]

If there WAS a deadavengers.net website...hands up, who thinks it would be very confusing? I mean, the Avengers have a much longer history than AF, with many more members, and the amount of deaths and supposed deaths and rebirths and possible rebirths (not to mention name changes; thank you Dr Pym!)...oh my, that would be a confusing site...

[Flightpath07]

double-post, oops

[Phil]

Images are over in yesterday's news article (http://www.alphaflight.net/content.php?428-Chaos-War-5-The-Fate-Of-Alpha-Flight) for anyone who wants to be spoiled.

:D :D :D

[mreeez]

From Fred Van Lente twitter


@fredvanlente
Fred Van Lente
Maybe. Unless we just brought 'em back for fun. RT @dfstell Is there an unannounced plan for Alpha Flight post-Chaos War?

[varo]

i hate when they are so cryptic. anyone have jim mccanns home phone number? :)

[Le Messor]

Should
I
still
be
putting
in
spoiler
space
?


Is this issue worth getting as an Alpha appearance? Or are they just in a panel or two, with a couple of lines of dialogue?

If you don't 'need' it for the fact they return, I'll go with 'just a panel or two', not worth getting.

OTOH, as a wise person once put it,
"YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY"

- Le Messor
"I feel more like I do now than I did last week."

[Flightpath07]

Spoiler space below (in the image, that is).

http://www.aeropause.com/wordpress/archives/images/2008/10/spoiler.jpeg

[Le Messor]

Spoiler space below (in the image, that is).

Dood!

I'd thought that was a spoiler for Chaos War #5, so I clicked on it! How could you?

- Le Messor
"I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book."
~ Groucho Marx

[Mokole]

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/chaos-war-from-the-field-110202.html

Where they mention Alpha Flight, though no real news.

[rplass]

You're playing it down, yeah, no news but that's just about the most direct, all out best thing said about Alpha Flight by a Marvel creator in an interview that you could ever want to read. I'm thrilled by that little exchange and very happy about it!

Love,
rplass

[varo]

i would love to hear from jim mcann or reilly brown to see if there is anything in the works. it just seems weird that the one shot came out and never mentioned again...........................like it never happened. fred van lente has been talking about alpha flight more than those 2.

[Flightpath07]

And someone else said, “Why don’t we bring back Alpha Flight?” “OK, great!”

WHO said it, would be a big hint as to what may or may not be going on! Was it McCann? Was it Van Lente? Was it Stan Lee? Martha Stuart? Mickey Mouse?

[Sasquatch17]

Great news!

[DIGGER]

WHO said it, would be a big hint as to what may or may not be going on! Was it McCann? Was it Van Lente? Was it Stan Lee? Martha Stuart? Mickey Mouse?

No, Who is on first.

DIGGER

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I waited a few days after reading CHAOS WAR # 5 before commenting. Hopefully, that helps, but I don't know because I'm just not that impressed with it. Sure, the letterer has a lot of fun, and the ending wraps up the storyline (which I did not follow; I'm just interested in the ALPHA FLIGHT part of it), but the bits & pieces of AF seem more of a throw-away than a concerted effort to raise them up. Which is totally unlike CW:AF, which does enhance AF's image.

For the few panels that they were in, would it have killed anybody to put a little more effort into making it look like a non-rushed, recognizable Alpha Flight?

[Le Messor]

For the few panels that they were in, would it have killed anybody to put a little more effort into making it look like a non-rushed, recognizable Alpha Flight?
I don't know for sure, but the Alpha in there was in keeping with the art style of the book.
Okay, I found this crossover to be fairly bland and whatever - definitely something that could've been told in Hercules rather than spread across 15 issues (according to the checklist), but, OTOH...
It brought back Alpha Flight!!!
Yay!

And, really, isn't that what mankind has dreamt of since you first looked up at the stars?

- Le Messor
"I find that as I grow older that I love those most whom I loved first."
~ Thomas Jefferson

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I'm glad Alpha Flight has returned and I think CW: AF brought them back with dignity and stlye and deftness unseen in many, many years. I was devasted when a solid (though underestimated) supergroup was transformed into gross mockeries of what they should have been. For awhile, I thought I would never see Alpha Flight treated with the respect it deserves.

But business-MARVEL wins out more often then goodstory-MARVEL, and that's where I am with CHAOS WAR# 5: specifically the group-shot of resurrected Alpha Flight is so generic, so indistinct, so...negligent that it's hard to believe that their surviving was little more than an afterthought.

BTW, how many Avenger books are there now? How many Darkest-Secret-Crisis-Civil-War-Days-of-Our-Deaths are in the works now?

Yay, Alpha's back.

[Flightpath07]

I am thinking, pessimistically, that Marvel has no real plans for alpha flight. Unfortunately, i fear they revived them merely to stop us from pointing out how wrong they were to get rid of them in the first place; I don't think Marvel likes getting any bad (negative) press on the 'net...

[Legerd]

I am thinking, pessimistically, that Marvel has no real plans for alpha flight. Unfortunately, i fear they revived them merely to stop us from pointing out how wrong they were to get rid of them in the first place; I don't think Marvel likes getting any bad (negative) press on the 'net...
Oh, that doesn't stop me from pointing out the hack job done on AF in Avenger #16, and that I quit buying anything Marvel because of it. On the other hand, I will also mention how good Van Lente and McCann's writing have been when it comes to the team. So if Marvel wants to hear positive reviews (at least from me) they need to produce more good AF books with one of these writers.

OT: Shouldn't we be pestering them for a mini or something?

[Phil]

Beginning Official Work today on what is literally a Marvel Dream Project. 14yr old me is doing cartwheels. And probably thinking about sex. (http://twitter.com/fredvanlente/status/33906173367296000)


Please let it be AF... Please let it be AF... [-o<

[Le Messor]

I don't think Marvel likes getting any bad (negative) press on the 'net...

Any publicity is good publicity!
F'rex, I figured out recently that the only reason I know how people like Paris Hilton or Justin Bieber are is because of people who don't think they should be famous.
I never hear from the people who like flash-in-the-pan celebrities, but with all the parodies and complaints out there, I learn far more about them than I care to.


Beginning Official Work today on what is literally a Marvel Dream Project. 14yr old me is doing cartwheels. And probably thinking about sex.


Beginning Official Work today on what is literally a Marvel Dream Project. 14yr old me is doing cartwheels. And probably thinking about sex. Please let it be AF... Please let it be AF... [-o<

Eww!
... oh, you meant the dream project...
That would be cool.

- Le Messor
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can’t resist it."

[cmdrkoenig67]

I am thinking, pessimistically, that Marvel has no real plans for alpha flight. Unfortunately, i fear they revived them merely to stop us from pointing out how wrong they were to get rid of them in the first place; I don't think Marvel likes getting any bad (negative) press on the 'net...

I have to disagree, FP...I believe what was said by Van Lente, Pak, McCann and Co.. That they talked about bringing the team back and they used the Chaos War to do it. I doubt us raving fans had much to do with it. Just as Bendis disliked Alpha Flight and so he used them as cannon-fodder (killed them off, as it were)...The guys that brought them back are big fans of the characters, I think it's as simple as that.

Dana

[-K-M-]

Well maybe more will be explained in the Chaos War Epilogue

[MistressMerr]

I have to disagree, FP...I believe what was said by Van Lente, Pak, McCann and Co.. That they talked about bringing the team back and they used the Chaos War to do it. I doubt us raving fans had much to do with it. Just as Bendis disliked Alpha Flight and so he used them as cannon-fodder (killed them off, as it were)...The guys that brought them back are big fans of the characters, I think it's as simple as that.

Dana
Bingo. Even if there are no plans to actually use the characters any time soon, the fact that they brought them back to be able to be used when there was no real need for it in the story they were telling, that's hardly a business decision. That was a creative one tossed in by people who like the characters and evidently thought they got short shrift in being killed off like that.

In conclusion: :D

[Phil]

Well maybe more will be explained in the Chaos War Epilogue

There isn't one is there?

[-K-M-]

There isn't one is there?

As of now no, but in a few interviews they said they might release one.

[Le Messor]

As of now no, but in a few interviews they said they might release one.

So, crossover 'event' that would probably have best been told as part of The Incredible Hercules got not only its own mini, not only about fifteen extra minis and one-shots, but now that it's over, they're still trying to get us to buy it?

Man, if it hadn't brought Alpha Flight back, I'd be completely annoyed at it.

I've been thinking about calling a readers' strike (I would, if I thought it'd happen) against "Events". Meaning, asking every comic book reader I can reach to not buy "Fear Itself", even if it has an appearance by your favourite character who hasn't had a canon appearance in thirty years, so we can tell Marvel and DC we're sick of the things.

(I chose that one partly because Flashpoint actually looks vaguely interesting, partly because it was Marvel and not DC who promised no more Events 'for the forseeable future' and then solicited that less than a year after the last one.)

Then I found out people out there have complained 'the current titles are boring, just in a holding pattern for the next event'...

- Le Messor
"I get enough exercise just pushing my luck!"

[Phil]

People still buy them though.
The majority of people love crossovers/events.

Either that or they hate them so much they buy 2 copies of each book instead of 1. ;)

Chaos War was a Limited Series with a few ripple titles, that yeah, probably could have been contained to just The Incredible Hercules, but the sales on that were dwindling so it's good business sense to do what they did. If readers prefer to jump on with #1 rather than #143 then that's logical.

And Chaos War wasn't exactly an Event, per se; the oneshots/mini's weren't essential reading. You could quite easily have just bought and read CW 1-5.
It didn't involve ongoing titles and interrupt their storylines or randomnly pull them into it (bar Incredible Hulks, I know) ala Second Coming, Civil War etc..

Civil War was bigger than Secret Invasion which was bigger than Siege which was bigger than Chaos War.
It was definitely a step in the right direction.

Yet comic sales have massively dropped since Civil War.

There's no point having an Alpha Flight around if Marvel can't afford to pay writers & artists and publish a book.

If an event every few years makes a decent AF story more likely I'm all for it. I won't necessarilly buy it, but I can see it's sometimes a necessary evil.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Bingo. Even if there are no plans to actually use the characters any time soon, the fact that they brought them back to be able to be used when there was no real need for it in the story they were telling, that's hardly a business decision. That was a creative one tossed in by people who like the characters and evidently thought they got short shrift in being killed off like that.

In conclusion: :D

I hope that the positive, optimistic reasons for bringing Alpha Flight back prove to be correct. But Chaos War # 5 doesn't bear it out.

How would a new reader know that the orange, hairy monster with the exposition dialog is 'Sasquatch'?
Yellowjacket (a dead Avenger, I believe) is identified. Hulk is identified. THOR is identified. 'Guardian' and 'Sasquatch' are not identified.

How would a new reader interested in the supergroup that isn't "dead anymore" know that it is ALPHA FLIGHT? How would they be able to recognize 'Shaman' or 'Snowbird' or 'Marrina' or 'Aurora' or 'Northstar'?

How would anyone know that Snowbird and Hercules recently experienced a pretty significant conflict/relationship?

I still believe that Chaos War: Alpha Flight is one of the best ALPHA FLIGHT stories MARVEL has ever published, but I also believe that their appearance in CW# 5 is back-handed and the entrenched negative approach to the group is still in full effect.

[Phil]

I hope that the positive, optimistic reasons for bringing Alpha Flight back prove to be correct. But Chaos War # 5 doesn't bear it out.

How would a new reader know that the orange, hairy monster with the exposition dialog is 'Sasquatch'?
Yellowjacket (a dead Avenger, I believe) is identified. Hulk is identified. THOR is identified. 'Guardian' and 'Sasquatch' are not identified.

How would a new reader interested in the supergroup that isn't "dead anymore" know that it is ALPHA FLIGHT? How would they be able to recognize 'Shaman' or 'Snowbird' or 'Marrina' or 'Aurora' or 'Northstar'?

How would anyone know that Snowbird and Hercules recently experienced a pretty significant conflict/relationship?

I still believe that Chaos War: Alpha Flight is one of the best ALPHA FLIGHT stories MARVEL has ever published, but I also believe that their appearance in CW# 5 is back-handed and the entrenched negative approach to the group is still in full effect.

I agree that CW #5 wasn't the best intro to AF for completely new readers, but I really don't see it as back-handed or negative.
In my opinion it tied up some loose ends from the oneshot and was at least respectful rather than a Lobdell style put-down.

[Flightpath07]

It's good to have AF be back, and alive.

But that doesn't stop me from being VERY concerned that there appears to be no solid plans for the team.

Yes, being alive is one step closer to SOMETHING being doewn with them.

BUT...Wouldn't it makie more sense to not bring them back UNTIL you are ready to announce that you brought them back for a reason?

I'm just saying, it concerns me.

If they have no reason, then they have no point, and no love. Oh, a few (witers and artists) out there may love them, but not enough to make a push for a series or miniseries that Marvel would even consider, or we would have heard about it already. Amd that is not good.

All things conoidered, if on a scale of 1 to 100, having AF mainly all dead is a 1 out fo 100, then having them alive but no plans to use them is a 10 out of 100. IMHO.

Still disgruntled. Still frustrated.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Phil, if you know somebody at MARVEL who can shed some light on what is happening with ALPHA FLIGHT,
please see if they would be willing to say something. The team and the fans have suffered for a very long time (unnecessarily), and MARVEL has shown that it can publish a decent Alpha Flight story.

Backhanded in the sense that if Alpha is really back for good, then Pak and Van Lente should have been allowed to give Alpha a little more attention...a tighter connection to the Incredible Hercules. Backhanded in the sense that, yes, Alpha is included in the Big money-makiing crossover EVENT but not in a way that will make it easy for new readers to identify the group.

I want an uplifted Alpha Flight as much as any one. MARVEL has proven it can do it. What remains to be seen is if MARVEL will do it again. And again. And again.

[Le Messor]

People still buy them though.

Which is why I said I wouldn't bother.


The majority of people love crossovers/events.

I don't know. I only ever hear people complaining about the concept - even if they think an individual event is good.
There's a thing called 'event fatigue' (the Event Horizon?)


Either that or they hate them so much they buy 2 copies of each book instead of 1. ;)

Yeah. :)


Yet comic sales have massively dropped since Civil War.

Have they all up? (I don't know). But when Marvel are printing 60+ titles a month, readers' money is gonna be spread pretty thin, so any one title will be selling a lot less than it would've with less in-company competition.


There's no point having an Alpha Flight around if Marvel can't afford to pay writers & artists and publish a book.

True. And there's no point if they can afford to pay them - but give them the money to make the 40th X-Book this week.


All things conoidered, if on a scale of 1 to 100, having AF mainly all dead is a 1 out of 100, then having them alive but no plans to use them is a 10 out of 100.

If they're all dead, there's only one thing you can do - go through their pockets and look for loose change - but they're only mostly dead. And mostly dead is slightly alive.

- Le Messor
"I give them a chance once a year to work me over, and that’s enough."
~ James D. Finley on talking to the press and public at the annual stockholders’ meeting

[Flightpath07]

I hope that the positive, optimistic reasons for bringing Alpha Flight back prove to be correct. But Chaos War # 5 doesn't bear it out.

How would a new reader know that the orange, hairy monster with the exposition dialog is 'Sasquatch'?
Yellowjacket (a dead Avenger, I believe) is identified. Hulk is identified. THOR is identified. 'Guardian' and 'Sasquatch' are not identified.

How would a new reader interested in the supergroup that isn't "dead anymore" know that it is ALPHA FLIGHT? How would they be able to recognize 'Shaman' or 'Snowbird' or 'Marrina' or 'Aurora' or 'Northstar'?

How would anyone know that Snowbird and Hercules recently experienced a pretty significant conflict/relationship?

I still believe that Chaos War: Alpha Flight is one of the best ALPHA FLIGHT stories MARVEL has ever published, but I also believe that their appearance in CW# 5 is back-handed and the entrenched negative approach to the group is still in full effect.

I agree. Especially with that last sentence. The potential is there, to tell great AF stories. But, to this point, all that has happened, is that Marvel has said to us (in effect, not in reality), "See, we brought them back, so stop complaining. If somebody wants to use them, they can. Okay?"

To me, that is a great first step. But, IS IT RESPECT? If it is, it is very grudging. Respect would be saying, "yes, we agree that AF can sell, so we are not only bringing them back, we are going to launch them into a new series, one that'll be very popular. We are going to do that, by the great CW:AF one-shot, followed by a top-notch showing in Chaos War itself, to get fans excited, and then out of that we will spin the new AF series."

I agree with Garry/Al-Fan and others...the way they were handled in the event, outside of the one-shot, was a throw-away appearance. It wasn't a set-up for anything, nor was it showing any confidence in the characters.

With Marvel and AF, it always seems to be one step forward, two steps back.

Am I shooting for the moon? Perhaps.

But Marvel is firing blanks, and trying to trick us into beleiving they are doing something that clearly they are not.

[MistressMerr]

With Marvel and AF, it always seems to be one step forward, two steps back.
How on Earth is this two steps back? How is this in any way a step back? How is AF possibly worse off than they were before? So their appearance in an issue of a comic was unsatisfying, big deal. They were dead before this, now they're alive for whoever wants to play with them AND we got a solid one-shot out of the deal. There's being bitter, and there's being ridiculous.

[Phil]

Respect would be saying, "yes, we agree that AF can sell, so we are not only bringing them back, we are going to launch them into a new series, one that'll be very popular. We are going to do that, by the great CW:AF one-shot, followed by a top-notch showing in Chaos War itself, to get fans excited, and then out of that we will spin the new AF series."

Therein lies the problem.

Alpha Flight doesn't sell.
Fact.
I'm sorry, but it's true.
There are failed series with poor sales as a track record.
Partly it's because of the way they've been handled in the past under previous EIC's (so let's not try and say it's one person's fault) but there is a stigma attached to them.
And partly it's because the majority of comics readers don't want anything other than X-Men/Spiderman/Avengers.
Defenders, Captain Britain/MI13, Runaways etc all don't sell too so its not just singling AF out or ant-Canadianism or anything either.


It wasn't a set-up for anything

That's correct, but it was never billed as such.
Nowhere was it ever stated that it would lead in to the new best-selling-ever respectful AF series. It was a throwaway appearance, like the rest I catalogue here.


nor was it showing any confidence in the characters.

And based on sales figures alone they have every right to not have confidence in the characters


But Marvel is firing blanks, and trying to trick us into beleiving they are doing something that clearly they are not.

This I don't get at all.
Where is the trick? Where have they ever stated that they were doing anything with AF other than the oneshot,which they did and did well?

And just to state; none of my replys are personal attacks, I'm just generally interested in why you think the way you do so am discussing my viewpoint.
You're entitled to your own differing opinions and this is all still friendly and fun. :D

[Phil]

I don't know. I only ever hear people complaining about the concept - even if they think an individual event is good.
There's a thing called 'event fatigue' (the Event Horizon?)

Okay, using the sales figures for November as an example;

Chaos War sold 28,630 copies through Diamond in the US.

That doesn't include direct-through-Marvel subscriptions (I'm not sure if Marvel even do subscriptions anymore), anything sold to international distributors, or anything sold through non-direct market vendors (newsstands, borders, 7-11's, the like).
So the actual amount of readers is going to be more than 28,630 but we'll never know how many so the basis for anything is going to be the diamond figures.

On a small scale 28,360 is a lot of people.
It's more people than I personally know.
It's more people than are registered here.

It's a very small % of that 28,360 that complain about event fatigue.
Even newsarama, cbr etc don't have 28,360 people complaining about event fatigue in one thread.
There are still a lot of readers who don't use the internet.
There are still a lot of readers who enjoy events and carry on buying them.

And that's just using the figures for Chaos War as an example, which as I've stated elsewhere, is more of an extended mini-series than an event.
The top selling title that month was Batman The Return with 99,545. Again, an Event with a #1.
Three times as many sales as CW #3.

Yet 99,545 is still small compared to what sales used to be.


But when Marvel jare printing 60+ titles a month, readers' money is gonna be spread pretty thin, so any one title will be selling a lot less than it would've with less in-company competition.

That's a catch 22.

Gone are the days when a comic reader will pick up everything a company brings out.
Some people will follow specific titles/characters, some specific artists, writers.

The more choice there is CAN be good, but a lot of the time it's a case of throwing things at walls and seeing what sticks.

I personally agree there's probably too many books out there, but using that logic there'd never have been an AF Volume 1, because there were still plenty of books out back then that were selling loads more than books today, there was no physical need for an Alpha Flight title. It came down to good business sense to produce one. Just as it's god business sense now, not to.
However, it could have been a complete failiure. A chance was taken, a book was put out an it stuck. And eventually un-stuck.


And there's no point if they can afford to pay them - but give them the money to make the 40th X-Book this week.

What if said 40th X-Book is Alpha Flight?
Let's not forget what Volume 1 was a spin-off from.

[Phil]

Phil, if you know somebody at MARVEL who can shed some light on what is happening with ALPHA FLIGHT,
please see if they would be willing to say something.

I'm as in front of the curtain as you guys.
I have no clue what's going on I'm afraid.
Anything I know comes through news sites/social networking etc.

In that respect we're a lot more spoilt by news than we were in the 70's/80's.


The team and the fans have suffered for a very long time (unnecessarily)I get your passion and feel the same, I really do, but we haven't suffered.


and MARVEL has shown that it can publish a decent Alpha Flight story.It's also shown it can publish a bad one.
The oneshot hasn't erased Vol.3 #12 and magically fixed the opinion of everyone in the world.


Backhanded in the sense that if Alpha is really back for good, then Pak and Van Lente should have been allowed to give Alpha a little more attention...a tighter connection to the Incredible Hercules.Let's not forget that it wasn't AF's story.
It wasn't a war to specifically bring them back.
Their return was a nice byproduct that they really didn't have to do.
It was Herc's story and they told it.


Backhanded in the sense that, yes, Alpha is included in the Big money-makiing crossover EVENT but not in a way that will make it easy for new readers to identify the group.That's what an AF #1 is for, not Chaos War #5 though.
To put in all of AF's history would have taken a handbook.


MARVEL has proven it can do it.

Has it? Let's not forget that as much as I loved the oneshot it only sold 17,164.


What remains to be seen is if MARVEL will do it again. And again. And again.Ultimately it comes down to readers voting with their wallets. Again and again.
Marvel is a business, let's not forget that. They can't just print money to please a very small, yet loveable :D , minority of the readership.

[Legerd]

There are some things Marvel has to do before Alpha Flight can be given a new ongoing series.
1. They have to include them in guest spots and big events so fans can get to know them, and it goes without saying they have to be seen in a positive light.
2. A miniseries has to be put out to expand on the guest spots and gauge fan reaction.
3. The miniseries needs a creative team that will both bring in readers by their reputations, and produce quality books story and art wise.
4. This is the big one! Marvel has to promote the characters, a lot! It's one thing the company hasn't done since the 80's. For some reason they will give an interview or two, and then they expect word of mouth to carry an AF book. Yet every Avengers, Thor, Cap, FF, X-men, Wolverine book gets front page treatment every month. These titles aren't going to suffer if Marvel gives an AF book some room on the soapbox, but they just haven't done it. If readers are expected to vote with their wallets then they have to know there's something to vote for, and why they should vote for it.

[Le Messor]

How on Earth is this two steps back? How is this in any way a step back? How is AF possibly worse off than they were before? So their appearance in an issue of a comic was unsatisfying, big deal. They were dead before this, now they're alive for whoever wants to play with them AND we got a solid one-shot out of the deal. There's being bitter, and there's being ridiculous.

Where is the trick? Where have they ever stated that they were doing anything with AF other than the oneshot,which they did and did well?
And just to state; none of my replys are personal attacks, I'm just generally interested in why you think the way you do so am discussing my viewpoint.
You're entitled to your own differing opinions and this is all still friendly and fun. :D

Grr, growl, roar!
Grrr, arrgh!

I mean:
I agree with you two on this. They've never said 'Here's the launching pad for your new Alpha Flight ongoing series'. In fact, wasn't it just a few weeks ago we were wondering if Alpha Flight were even going to stay alive? Right up until we got Chaos War #5, nobody knew.


On a small scale 28,360 is a lot of people.
It's more people than I personally know.
It's more people than are registered here.

And yet, I haven't heard from one of those people anywhere ever saying 'Yay, another event! More, more!' I've heard 2nd-hand that they exist, but not one of them has ever come to my personal knowledge. If there are so many, if they outnumber all the people on comics boards, where are they?

Admittedly, I don't regularly read any comics fora except this one, and the comments sections on comics to film, so maybe they're all over the place there.
Along with the people who buy comics just because Wolverine's on the cover.


Gone are the days when a comic reader will pick up everything a company brings out.

I don't know how common that ever was, but my point was, those days can't return when a company brings out 60+ a month. The only people who could afford it would be more interested in making money than in reading comic books.


The more choice there is CAN be good, but a lot of the time it's a case of throwing things at walls and seeing what sticks.

But when every single book is one of four titles (X-, Spider-, Avengers or Fantastic Four), where's the choice? Are those sales to people who like the new books or to people who just want to keep up with one title?


What if said 40th X-Book is Alpha Flight?
Let's not forget what Volume 1 was a spin-off from.

If it hasn't spun so far off that it still is an X-Book (rather than something that got its start there), it won't be very good. And if it's like so many other X-Books at the moment, it'll be two issues of story, then three of Cyclops and Emma fighting some incursion onto their private island that's there to kill all mutants to be continued in Uncanny X-Men, X-Men, X-Force, X-Factor, The New Mutants, The New Mutants: Where's Our X?, X-Power Pack, X-Avengers, the special five-issue X-This Xover's Incursion, X-Terminators, X-Aliens, X-Robocops...


Let's not forget that it wasn't AF's story.
It wasn't a war to specifically bring them back.
Their return was a nice byproduct that they really didn't have to do.

That's true, and see above about our 'Will they live?' wild mass guessing.


Ultimately it comes down to readers voting with their wallets. Again and again.
Marvel is a business, let's not forget that. They can't just print money to please a very small, yet loveable :D , minority of the readership.

But why not? I want more money!
I mean...
1: that's why my idea in response to the Event Horizon was a strike - if comics readership came aboard, it'd be voting with our wallets.
2: I'll say what I say every time somebody says that: Money talks, but it's inarticulate.
Marvel has printed three new series that were set in Canada, had one or two Alphans in it, those (two) words on the cover, and absolutely nothing else whatsoever to do with Alpha Flight.
If they sell, then they decide we want this new thing that, in terms of style, themes, characters, content, is absolutely nothing like what I've been asking for. If they don't sell, they tell us there's no market for Alpha Flight. Either way, the actual Alpha Flight, John Byrne's team, loses.


4. This is the big one! Marvel has to promote the characters, a lot! It's one thing the company hasn't done since the 80's. For some reason they will give an interview or two, and then they expect word of mouth to carry an AF book. Yet every Avengers, Thor, Cap, FF, X-men, Wolverine book gets front page treatment every month. These titles aren't going to suffer if Marvel gives an AF book some room on the soapbox, but they just haven't done it. If readers are expected to vote with their wallets then they have to know there's something to vote for, and why they should vote for it.

For example, a few weeks ago, I bought the trade Power Pack Classics #2. I only knew it existed because I happened to look for it just in case it existed; I never saw it publicised. How many people didn't think to do that?
And I see no sign anywhere of a #3.
If there's no #3, presumably it's because the first two failed to sell.
Is that because nobody wanted it, or because nobody knew about it, or because I just haven't been paying attention and #3 is solicited for next week? You decide.

- Le Messor
"I got expelled from home schooling."

[Flightpath07]

hey Phil,

Appreciate the chance to have a conversation, and I don't take anything here as a personal attack, so its all good.

I agree; AF doesn't (or hasn't) sell/sold.
I also agree there are myriad reasons they haven't sold.
I also agree, most comic readers only want one thing, and you are right, it is Spiderman or XMen or Avengers, and not much else.

Again, you are corrcet; it was never billed as a set-up for a launch of a series.
The question, then, is WHY DO IT?
WHY did Marvel bring back AF, if they have no plans for a series? If they previously turned down multiple offers for an AF script for series that writers turned in (several have admitted here or elsewhere on the net that they pitched an AF idea, and were turned down)?
What was the point? They knew the one-shot would sell with die-hard fans, and not with anybody else, because they never set the one-shot up in advance to make folks want to buy it who weren't fans.
In the same way, their appearance in CW5 was a throw-away, in that the were shown but not introduced. You could have put anybody in those panels, any hero, anybody at all, and it would have made no difference to the mini-series. And, their appearance in no way gave any non-fans any reason to be interested in AF. Again, so why do it?

Answer - maybe somebody who really loves AF twisted their arm. Maybe TPTB finally relented just a little in their seeming hatred for AF. Maybe it was the ghost of Walt Disney. Or maybe too many people that work in Marvel got wind of this little website, and didn't like the fact that they weere getting negative press, so they brought AF back to keep us from saying anything bad anymore.
or, possibly, another reason that i am not thinking of (black hole? mind wipe? pod people?)...

Call me sick (some will, I am sure), but I would rather have AF remain dead until they are actually going to use them, than to have them alive but being ignored by mainstream Marvel. Yes, it is true - it is better to be dead, than to be ignored. Becasue we all know, dead never stay dead in comics. But the ignored...they just aren't loved or respected.

As far as the characters being respected, that will require people using them, in interesting situations, growing their fan base. Maybe it'll happen. I hope it does, that individual writers choose ot use them , often and well. But I am not holding my breath. If it happens, I think it'll be up to individual writers, not TPTB at Marvel.

And what happens if some crappy writer uses them, and further muddles them up? Is that really a good thing?

Worse, what happens if Northstar and Jeffries continue ot appear in the X-books, along with that new blue Canadian mutant, and Wolverine of course, and nobody there even remembers or cares that AF is alive and well? How horrible would that be, that freinds and teammates woudl not even mention AF at all? Or if the only mention of them is Northstar joking about how bad of a team they are?
Would this, in any way, make you glad that AF is alive? Not me.

No, I was more for keeping them under wraps, then bringing them back in an explosive way, as the main heroes of some great storyline, re-introducing the characters to the world in a fantastic way.

The way this was done...makes me feel ill. Yeah, i hope some great writers who really love them use tham and uses them well. But i fear more them emptiness of being forgotten and cast aside again.

This, to me, is the trick Marvel played. They heard our cries to bring back Alpha Flight. So they did. But their re-births are not even cold, and their next appearance (CW5) feels like a slap in the face...Marvel knows what we really want. So why bring them back, only to have them be nobodies again? I had my eyes on one thing, but got given something else entirely - parlour trickery.

Colour me not impressed. Not yet.

I'm not that easily satisified, or that easily fooled.



[cQUOTE=Phil;77093]Therein lies the problem.

Alpha Flight doesn't sell.
Fact.
I'm sorry, but it's true.
There are failed series with poor sales as a track record.
Partly it's because of the way they've been handled in the past under previous EIC's (so let's not try and say it's one person's fault) but there is a stigma attached to them.
And partly it's because the majority of comics readers don't want anything other than X-Men/Spiderman/Avengers.
Defenders, Captain Britain/MI13, Runaways etc all don't sell too so its not just singling AF out or ant-Canadianism or anything either.



That's correct, but it was never billed as such.
Nowhere was it ever stated that it would lead in to the new best-selling-ever respectful AF series. It was a throwaway appearance, like the rest I catalogue here.



And based on sales figures alone they have every right to not have confidence in the characters



This I don't get at all.
Where is the trick? Where have they ever stated that they were doing anything with AF other than the oneshot,which they did and did well?

And just to state; none of my replys are personal attacks, I'm just generally interested in why you think the way you do so am discussing my viewpoint.
You're entitled to your own differing opinions and this is all still friendly and fun. :D[/QUOTE]

[Flightpath07]

MM,

There is wanting what you actually want, and there is settling for what you are given.

I don't settle.

But, no worries, its all good. We're still friends.




How on Earth is this two steps back? How is this in any way a step back? How is AF possibly worse off than they were before? So their appearance in an issue of a comic was unsatisfying, big deal. They were dead before this, now they're alive for whoever wants to play with them AND we got a solid one-shot out of the deal. There's being bitter, and there's being ridiculous.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I'm as in front of the curtain as you guys.
I have no clue what's going on I'm afraid.
Anything I know comes through news sites/social networking etc....

It sounded like you were more plugged in to what was happening behind the scenes and the way decisions are made concerning what gets published and how.

I get your passion and feel the same, I really do, but we haven't suffered.

You speak for everyone? AF has more crap than good comics. Please tell me if this is incorrect.

It's also shown it can publish a bad one.
The oneshot hasn't erased Vol.3 #12 and magically fixed the opinion of everyone in the world.

Phil, I never said that the one-shot erased all the dreck from the past, nor did I believe that it magically fixed everyone's opinion. CW:AF is worthy of praise because it is ALPHA FLIGHT. It isn't a bunch of mind-wiped characters thrown together and called 'Alpha Flight'. It isn't Force Works pretending to be Alpha Flight. It (finally) is the real deal.

Let's not forget that it wasn't AF's story.
It wasn't a war to specifically bring them back.
Their return was a nice byproduct that they really didn't have to do.
It was Herc's story and they told it.

I have no real comment to make on that. As a Hercules story, I am satisfied.


Has it? Let's not forget that as much as I loved the oneshot it only sold 17,164.

The one-shot was released in the fourth week of the month, right behind a major holiday. That 17,000 people took the time to travel to their local comics shop, picked out CWAF from all the choices they had, paid their hard-earned money for it...well, that may not mean crap to anybody else, but it means something to me.

Ultimately it comes down to readers voting with their wallets. Again and again.

Buying a lot of 'Omega Flight' didn't seem to be the way to keep that series going.

Marvel is a business, let's not forget that. They can't just print money to please a very small, yet loveable :D , minority of the readership.

I doubt few here could ever forget that MARVEL is a business. MARVEL still can publish a good story with a beginning, middle, and end....from time to time.

[Ahab]

but maybe there IS something brewing and Marvel just isn't ready to market it yet.
I'm just saying...

[Legerd]

I was actually happy with the CW#5 AF appearance. Any other time the team has been in a crossover event it was only as cannon fodder, and if they had actual lines is was just to play Devil's Advocate to the "real" stars of the event (Cap America, Mr. Fantastic, Cyclops, etc.). This book not only had Sas showing he was a brain, it depicted Guardian as a leader. Hell, Guardian had more panel time than the Hulks, Thor, Spiderman, Luke Cage, Iron Man and Captain America. He also had more lines than all of them. When has that ever happened?

Were they shown as the main characters? No, but they weren't the mains, Herc and Cho were. Were they shown as heroes? Definitely. Were they shown to be competent? Yes. For me, brief as it was, this has been the most positive AF appearance in a crossover ever! This is how they need to be written when they show up in the inevitable guest spots, and in the miniseries which I'm calling right now. Marvel needs to get AF out there a bit before there is any chance of a book being viable, so I don't expect anything this year beyond a bunch of guest spots. 2012 will be AF's year.

[Le Messor]

I doubt few here could ever forget that MARVEL is a business. MARVEL still can publish a good story with a beginning, middle, and end....from time to time.

That's true - Marvel is a business... but I've gotta be honest. I'm kinda tired of hearing that every time they make a decision that alienates a bunch of fans.
I can complain, 'kay?
And I choose to show as much care for their point of view as they've demonstrated for mine. None.

You know how a business gets popular? By creating a good product that people like. I like best the comics of the 70s and 80s; everything I've heard tells me that comics were selling far better then than they are now. Marvel would love to tell you that that's just because computer games are better now - but given the number of comics fans I hear from who've sworn off Marvel or DC or all comics because they're so much worse now, I have to doubt that. It sounds like they're refusing to give us the product we want and then blaming other people for their failures.
They've been coasting on old loyalties, and that won't last.

Let's take an example from the field of business, then. Coca Cola made a huge name for themselves selling one formula. Then, one day, they changed it, slapped the old label on it, then got shocked when the new thing didn't sell.
Does anybody today remember New Coke as a brilliant business decision that advanced the company? I don't think so.

Marvel does the same thing with Alpha Flight; they show us something set in Canada, with one or two Alphans, and slap at least one of those labels ('Alpha' or 'Flight') on it, then get shocked when it doesn't sell. Then tell us nobody wants Alpha Flight.
How would they know? Marvel has published exactly one issue of Alpha Flight in nearly 25 years, and they didn't exactly go out of their way to publicise it. So how can they judge Alpha Flight's future based on New Alpha?
I want the Classic Alpha formula. See how that sells, then we'll talk.

What I want them to do, as a business, is take a smale variety of different comics (and Coke don't just make cola) and spend their resources and work on making those as well as they can. Instead, they're spreading their resources over a wide range of near-identical comics and doing it badly.

'Marvel is a business' is usually followed by 'vote with your wallets'. Unfortunately, that's a binary option: to buy or not to buy. There are a wide range of reasons why I will / will not buy a particular comic. Choosing not to buy one won't give them the reason why; it'll just tell them that title doesn't sell. Or that it can't sell.
And there might be a lot of good reasons to keep buying a comic, even if there's a lot wrong with it.


I was actually happy with the CW#5 AF appearance. Any other time the team has been in a crossover event it was only as cannon fodder, and if they had actual lines is was just to play Devil's Advocate to the "real" stars of the event (Cap America, Mr. Fantastic, Cyclops, etc.). This book not only had Sas showing he was a brain, it depicted Guardian as a leader. Hell, Guardian had more panel time than the Hulks, Thor, Spiderman, Luke Cage, Iron Man and Captain America. He also had more lines than all of them. When has that ever happened?

Were they shown as the main characters? No, but they weren't the mains, Herc and Cho were. Were they shown as heroes? Definitely. Were they shown to be competent? Yes. For me, brief as it was, this has been the most positive AF appearance in a crossover ever! This is how they need to be written when they show up in the inevitable guest spots, and in the miniseries which I'm calling right now. Marvel needs to get AF out there a bit before there is any chance of a book being viable, so I don't expect anything this year beyond a bunch of guest spots. 2012 will be AF's year.

I hope you're right, Legerd, I really do. Because just one of those things wiped out my entire crew in just under...
Uh, sorry, flashed back there...

- Le Messor
"You can't guide somebody into adulthood. Everyone's experience is different."
- Ship's Councellor Deanna Troi.
"You're fired."
- Donald Trump.

[Phil]

You speak for everyone? AF has more crap than good comics. Please tell me if this is incorrect.

Let's not get off on the wrong foot here, I was never claiming to speak for everyone, and you're more than welcome to your opinion, as is everyone.
All I meant was, suffering is people starving to death in third world countries, being physically tortured, having a fatal disease, having a loved one being killed in a natural disaster etc etc... Having fictional characters that we don't own not being written as we'd like isn't suffering IMO.


Phil, I never said that the one-shot erased all the dreck from the past, nor did I believe that it magically fixed everyone's opinion. Sometimes it helps to wait awhile before posting. I had to learn that early on, here, myself.

Again, nowhere did I say that you said that. My post wasn't an attack on you, just my personal differing opinions.
I was generalising against the Alpha-dislike on the internet since the cancelation of Vol.1


CW:AF is worthy of praise because it is ALPHA FLIGHT. It isn't a bunch of mind-wiped characters thrown together and called 'Alpha Flight'. It isn't Force Works pretending to be Alpha Flight. It (finally) is the real deal.

Exactly, so that's positive and I agree.
CW #5 was never advertised as AF's great return to the MU.
There was no blurb or splash on the cover stating 'Guest Starring Alpha Flight!"


The one-shot was released in the third week of the month, right behind a major holiday. That 17,000 people took the time to travel to their local comics shop, picked out CWAF from all the choices they had, paid their hard-earned money for it...well, that may not mean crap to anybody else, but it means something to me.

It doesn't though.

It means that speciality comic stores ordered 17,000 copies through Diamond.
It doesn't mean that they all sold on that holiday week.
With mail order it doesn't mean that fans travelled to stores.
And it doesn't show how many were still sat on shelves on stores.

But I agree, 17,000 to me is a lot. However in a business sense it's not.


MARVEL still can publish a good story with a beginning, middle, and end....from time to time.

Again, I agree.
And CW was to some a good story, with exactly that.
Just because AF weren't treated as stars of the Mu doesn't mean that some people didn't enjoy the story.

[Le Messor]

Let's not get off on the wrong foot here, I was never claiming to speak for everyone, and you're more than welcome to your opinion, as is everyone.
All I meant was, suffering is people starving to death in third world countries, being physically tortured, having a fatal disease, having a loved one being killed in a natural disaster etc etc... Having fictional characters that we don't own not being written as we'd like isn't suffering IMO.

Jus' puttin' it in perspective, in other words.


Exactly, so that's positive and I agree.
CW #5 was never advertised as AF's great return to the MU.

The one-shot kinda was. And it was AF's return! And, yes we can all agree... it actually was Alpha Flight for once! Yay!


There was no blurb or splash on the cover stating 'Guest Starring Alpha Flight!"

There was on my copy.
It's in crayon.

Okay, I put it there myself.

:oops: (I'm making this up.)


It means that speciality comic stores ordered 17,000 copies through Diamond.

Understood.


Just because AF weren't treated as stars of the Mu doesn't mean that some people didn't enjoy the story.

How dare they!? :p

Personally, with or without AF, I found it kind of bland. But your mileage may vary. (Yes, Phil, I know you're not saying here that you liked it or didn't.)

- LM
"I got his tie what did you get...the birth mark? That's great!"
~ Chico Marx in Animal Crackers

[Flightpath07]

There are some things Marvel has to do before Alpha Flight can be given a new ongoing series.
1. They have to include them in guest spots and big events so fans can get to know them, and it goes without saying they have to be seen in a positive light.
2. A miniseries has to be put out to expand on the guest spots and gauge fan reaction.
3. The miniseries needs a creative team that will both bring in readers by their reputations, and produce quality books story and art wise.
4. This is the big one! Marvel has to promote the characters, a lot! It's one thing the company hasn't done since the 80's. For some reason they will give an interview or two, and then they expect word of mouth to carry an AF book. Yet every Avengers, Thor, Cap, FF, X-men, Wolverine book gets front page treatment every month. These titles aren't going to suffer if Marvel gives an AF book some room on the soapbox, but they just haven't done it. If readers are expected to vote with their wallets then they have to know there's something to vote for, and why they should vote for it.

Agree, completely.

[Flightpath07]

What I want them to do, as a business, is take a smale variety of different comics (and Coke don't just make cola) and spend their resources and work on making those as well as they can. Instead, they're spreading their resources over a wide range of near-identical comics and doing it badly.

Sounds a lot like the music business right now. All record labels want is sales, so all they really want is a band that sounds like another band that is selling well right now. Originality went out the door. So did hard work. In todays music industry, the Rolling Stones would have been dropped by their label and never had a successful career; one bad album means it is time to move on to something else.

Same thing applies to comics. They don't give a comic time to get good, to hook people in. They are a business, and all they really care about is squeezing every last dollar they can out of every last customer.

I prefer my own stories to what is being written today. I like the comics of the 70s and 80s too - so far, this Heroic Age thing is a flat out bust...

[Phil]

The question, then, is WHY DO IT?
WHY did Marvel bring back AF, if they have no plans for a series? If they previously turned down multiple offers for an AF script for series that writers turned in (several have admitted here or elsewhere on the net that they pitched an AF idea, and were turned down)?

Pass.
Maybe they do.
Only time will tell.


They knew the one-shot would sell with die-hard fans, and not with anybody else, because they never set the one-shot up in advance to make folks want to buy it who weren't fans.

I dunno... I suppose they were hoping people reading the Chaos War series as a whole may pick it up, and maybe just casual readers as it was a oneshot rather than a limited series.


In the same way, their appearance in CW5 was a throw-away, in that the were shown but not introduced.

That's true. There were no introductions so I agree it may have been confusing to new readers who hadn't read the oneshot or an AF comic in their life.


You could have put anybody in those panels, any hero, anybody at all, and it would have made no difference to the mini-series. And, their appearance in no way gave any non-fans any reason to be interested in AF.

Again, I agree.
I'm glad they did though, as an AF fan.


Again, so why do it?

*shrugs*
I'm still glad they did though, personally. I enjoyed the few panels they got.


Answer - maybe somebody who really loves AF twisted their arm. Maybe TPTB finally relented just a little in their seeming hatred for AF. Maybe it was the ghost of Walt Disney. Or maybe too many people that work in Marvel got wind of this little website, and didn't like the fact that they weere getting negative press, so they brought AF back to keep us from saying anything bad anymore.
or, possibly, another reason that i am not thinking of (black hole? mind wipe? pod people?)...

Maybe out of all the characters who died recently in the MU it made the most sense for them to come back. When Bendis killed them, they were always going to come back. It was just a case of when and how.
Maybe it made business sense, if only just to sell one more oneshot.
Maybe there are plans in the work.


I would rather have AF remain dead until they are actually going to use them, than to have them alive but being ignored by mainstream Marvel.

See, I personally disagree, but that's because I like little cameo appearances.


As far as the characters being respected, that will require people using them, in interesting situations, growing their fan base. Maybe it'll happen. I hope it does, that individual writers choose ot use them , often and well.

Again, there I agree.
I'd rather they stay dead than be used as a cheap gag or Volume 3-ised.


If it happens, I think it'll be up to individual writers, not TPTB at Marvel.

I really don't think that it's editorials bias against AF. I think TPTB are stuck with the decisions from past editors and editors-in-chiefs that have made AF look like a joke.


And what happens if some crappy writer uses them, and further muddles them up? Is that really a good thing?

As stated above I agree, but t's a 50/50 chance and sometimes you've gotta try.


Worse, what happens if Northstar and Jeffries continue ot appear in the X-books, along with that new blue Canadian mutant, and Wolverine of course, and nobody there even remembers or cares that AF is alive and well? How horrible would that be, that freinds and teammates woudl not even mention AF at all? Or if the only mention of them is Northstar joking about how bad of a team they are?
Would this, in any way, make you glad that AF is alive? Not me.

It still wouldn't tarnish my thoughts, memories and reading of the original volume though.


No, I was more for keeping them under wraps, then bringing them back in an explosive way, as the main heroes of some great storyline, re-introducing the characters to the world in a fantastic way.

I can see the logic in that, but then again the bigger return you set them up for the bigger chance of failiure there would be.


The way this was done...makes me feel ill. Yeah, i hope some great writers who really love them use tham and uses them well. But i fear more them emptiness of being forgotten and cast aside again.

I can see that.


This, to me, is the trick Marvel played. They heard our cries to bring back Alpha Flight. So they did.

I don't think it was anything we said that brought them back.
The story just made sense at the time.


But their re-births are not even cold, and their next appearance (CW5) feels like a slap in the face...

But technically CW #5 WAS their rebirth, not the oneshot.


So why bring them back, only to have them be nobodies again?

Only time will tell.


I had my eyes on one thing, but got given something else entirely - parlour trickery.

What did you have your eyes on, if you don't mind me asking?
I personally didn't expect them to come back alive, so was pleasantly surprised.

Reading the oneshot and CW #5, I'm actually glad Bendis killed the team.
I'm still not thrilled how it was done and written, or y'know... not-written on panel, but I enjoyed Omega Flight for what it was and enjoyed the oneshot and at least the whole Volume 3 ending has been erased through their deaths.
No issues with temporal copies.
Without their death we'd still have that confusion hanging over their heads every guest appearance (good or bad) they made.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

How many times has MARVEL gone bankrupt?
How many times has DC?
The disdain for the buying public is one of the reasons why comic books don't sell well. People have outlined pretty sensible ways to enhance AF's profile in this very thread, and an earlier MARVEL probably would take heed. As a consumer and a fan, when comic characters are intentionally misused and the parent company expects their readership to accept it, like it, (praise it)...what else do you call it?

There seem to be a few others who don't think that CW5----whether it's Hercules' story or not---did all it could've done. It didn't have to be an Alpha Flight story, but it wouldn't have been a bad idea to make the members of Alpha Flight so they were more recognizable.

[varo]

its so funny thatall we were asking for at one point is a story, wether it be a one shot, min-series or even a appearance in a book to put alpha flight back together, erase some of the continuity nightmares and re-establish the team back in the marvel universe. i think that one shot did all that. now we want more. we are truly a greedy bunch :)

i still believe they were the only ones left alive for a reason, not just a passing thought.

[Phil]

I'm glad we all have different opinions, cos let's face it, it'd be boring if we didn't.

Generation X #19 - Saquatch essentially implies Alpha Flight were a joke
New Avengers #16 - Alpha Flight killed OFF PANEL
Uncanny X-Men #508 - Northstar essentially implies Alpha Flight were a joke
Chaos War #5 - Sasquatch & Mac shown as intelligent

On that pure & simple reasoning - Phil's opinion = Chaos War #5 = a good appearance.

Maybe I'm looking at it too simply, but that's just me. I don't expect anything more.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

The blurb at the end of CW:AF says "See Alpha Flight join the fight in Chaos War# 5". Did a fan do that?

[Phil]

If that's for me to answer -

No, a fan didn't.
They did join the fight though.
It may not have been the grand rebirth appearance some people were hoping for but they were there and they were fighting.

And before my quotes get taken out of context, I actually said;

There was no blurb or splash on the cover stating 'Guest Starring Alpha Flight!"

Let's agree to disagree here? You're more than welcome to you differing opinion.

I'm not trying to say I'm right, merely that I enjoyed the oneshot and the appearance in #5 and that nowhere did Marvel state that #5 would be Alpha Flight's grand return and spotlight of the MU (and no, I haven't or am not stated/stating that anyone said or implied it would be).

And with that, I shall reply on this thread no more.

[Le Messor]

In today's music industry, the Rolling Stones would have been dropped by their label and never had a successful career...

its so funny thatall we were asking for at one point is a story, wether it be a one shot, min-series or even a appearance in a book to put alpha flight back together, erase some of the continuity nightmares and re-establish the team back in the marvel universe. i think that one shot did all that. now we want more. we are truly a greedy bunch

I can't get no satisfaction.
:p


Generation X #19 - Saquatch essentially implies Alpha Flight were a joke
New Avengers #16 - Alpha Flight killed OFF PANEL
Uncanny X-Men #508 - Northstar essentially implies Alpha Flight were a joke
Chaos War #5 - Sasquatch & Mac shown as intelligent
On that pure & simple reasoning - Phil's opinion = Chaos War #5 = a good appearance.

I kinda agree with Phil on this one. 'kinda' because I also take the point that the characters could have been better-identified to a non-Alpha-reading public.


How many times has MARVEL gone bankrupt?
How many times has DC?
The disdain for the buying public is one of the reasons why comic books don't sell well.

Exactly. And as a longtime and loyal customer of theirs, when other customers tell me they're a business every time they do something I don't like, it helps me to a sum total of zero.

- Le Messor
"I gotta stop him before he unleashes unholy havoc and it's just another Tuesday night in Sunnydale."
~ Buffy

[suzene]

I'm glad we all have different opinions, cos let's face it, it'd be boring if we didn't.

Generation X #19 - Saquatch essentially implies Alpha Flight were a joke
New Avengers #16 - Alpha Flight killed OFF PANEL
Uncanny X-Men #508 - Northstar essentially implies Alpha Flight were a joke
Chaos War #5 - Sasquatch & Mac shown as intelligent

On that pure & simple reasoning - Phil's opinion = Chaos War #5 = a good appearance.

Maybe I'm looking at it too simply, but that's just me. I don't expect anything more.

I don't take issue with Northstar ragging on Alpha Flight, because I think that is an in-character reaction. (Really, reading back through the Byrne and Mantlo stuff, I'm amazed at all the times he didn't sock someone in the jaw and walk out.) I don't like it, but I think it's a valid interpretation given his rocky history with the team. My moment of tooth-grinding "STFU and read some comics, Fraction" was when Northstar cracks wise about there never being a dull moment around Utopia, and Cyclops responds "This isn't Alpha Flight."

[Flightpath07]

and Cyclops responds "This isn't Alpha Flight."

No, it isn't. And it never will be, Cyclops, more is the pity.

Wouldn't it be great if more comics aspired to be like Alpha Flight?

[cmdrkoenig67]

Cyclops secretly wishes he was a member of Alpha Flight.

Dana

[suzene]

Cyclops secretly wishes he was a member of Alpha Flight.

Dana

Cyclops is still bitter that Northstar fights smarter than he does.

[DIGGER]

I gotta say that originally we were all just begging for 1 more Alpha story that didn't suck to high heaven. With the CW one shot we got that story. I'd like to think that when they killed off the Flight in Avengers they chose them because their death would come as a shock. They may not be held in high regards to many but like it or not they are Canada's version of the Avengers and to have them killed off panel was to show just how powerful the Collective was. It was a plotline used to shock, and it did. It cheesed us off, it made us say NFW did they just do that! Fast forward a couple of years and Marvel comes along with a mini series/event. They decide to resurrect Alpha Flight in this story. They didn't have to because (as someone else posted here) in CW#5 they could have been any other heroes put in those panels. But the fact still remains that they did revive Alpha. Whether it is an admission of a mistake (killing them off in the first place) or a way of placating the thousands of Alpha fans, I say we take it for what it is. CW-Alpha Flight was a decent story which brought back what a majority deems to be the best lineup the comic ever had. If there are plans for AF, great, if not then atleast they gave us a story that satisfies to a certain degree. Yes I would like to see more of them but it won't be in their own series, it will be as guest starring roles in the X-men or Avengers. Let's just be happy that they brought them back for now and hope that sometime in the future they get to see the light of day again in print.

DIGGER

[DIGGER]

Cyclops secretly wishes he was a member of Alpha Flight.

Dana

Alpha wouldn't have that self-centered #@&%! anyway.

DIGGER

[Flightpath07]

*FRAAAZPP*

Cyclops fries Digger with an optical beam, then goes back to looking at himself in the mirror.