#2 spoiler-ful thread

[Phil]

Okay people, thoughts go here.
Remember to leave

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for the preview panels.

Go:-

[-K-M-]

Very good second issue! Im really liking the pacing and where the story is going. Fred is clearly showing respect for these characters and is using them not just as a Canadian shtick, but as important Marvel characters. Well done.

The art is just incredible. I was a fan of Dale's work since JSA and Im so glad he is doing this book.

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Some minor tiffs such as Mac saying he died twice (died only once), a Great Beast bone preventing Snowbird from transforming (perhaps Ranark did a spell on the bone fragment as well), Walter being de-transformed from gamma radiation exposure (is Tanaraq being ignored? I doubt it, but seemed odd), and Talisman's talisman was drawn incorrectly (but it was just an illusion so I will let it slide :p). Once again just very minor issues from an excellent book. Love Puck is back, the Great Beast reference from Greg and Fred's Hercules run, Aurora turning sides, etc, etc, etc.

[Guardian98]

Wonderful issue, loved it.

[weaponAlpha]

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great issue !!!some of the characterizations were different than normal (to me)but the jury is still out because its just issue 2!



Great issue but Vindicator thinking of having to do with overthrowing/taking control of the gov't in some way is kinda weird for her character to me ....the jury is still out on that one because we need to know her motivation besides being with her daughter, i just couldn't see heather participating in the sabotage and brainwashing of her teammates unless she was brainwashed somehow ,Dept H has been known to be very shady (vol2) so we'll see. Shaman brainwashed they must of had some great methods because Shaman seems very mentally strong so that was surprising. Marrina on the cover of a Vouge magazine ??? what the hell has been going on since god war lol(or was that brainwashing too?), I like the whole box army of robots thing very Cool, the Hudson protocols where he has ways to stop every alpha very cool too! Northstar seemed well characterized but he said he saw heather blasting mac and followed them?!? did I miss something in issue 1? maybe I did ...if not they should have shown that not left it off panel and I think that was not Ranark from that marvel 2 in 1 team up with alpha I think its some new Raveger they said his name was Neooqtoq? Puck was great he acted weird but if you see how he was living in hell in the Wolverine comic then you'll know why lol, the art was great the best alpha has had in a very long time...to me the issue was great! I brought it at lunch read it and gave it to my co-workers 10 year old son I'm trying to make a new alpha! cant wait a month for the next issue!!!!! I HAVE TO SEE HOW THIS STORY PLAYS OUT!!!!

LONG LIVE ALPHA FLIGHT!!!

[-K-M-]

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great issue !!!some of the characterizations were different than normal (to me)but the jury is still out because its just issue 2!



Great issue but Vindicator thinking of having to do with overthrowing/taking control of the gov't in some way is kinda weird for her character to me ....the jury is still out on that one because we need to know her motivation besides being with her daughter, i just couldn't see heather participating in the sabotage and brainwashing of her teammates unless she was brainwashed somehow ,Dept H has been known to be very shady (vol2) so we'll see. Shaman brainwashed they must of had some great methods because Shaman seems very mentally strong so that was surprising. Marrina on the cover of a Vouge magazine ??? what the hell has been going on since god war lol(or was that brainwashing too?), I like the whole box army of robots thing very Cool, the Hudson protocols where he has ways to stop every alpha very cool too! Northstar seemed well characterized but he said he saw heather blasting mac and followed them?!? did I miss something in issue 1? maybe I did ...if not they should have shown that not left it off panel and I think that was not Ranark from that marvel 2 in 1 team up with alpha I think its some new Raveger they said his name was Neooqtoq? Puck was great he acted weird but if you see how he was living in hell in the Wolverine comic then you'll know why lol, the art was great the best alpha has had in a very long time...to me the issue was great! I brought it at lunch read it and gave it to my co-workers 10 year old son I'm trying to make a new alpha! cant wait a month for the next issue!!!!! I HAVE TO SEE HOW THIS STORY PLAYS OUT!!!!


LONG LIVE ALPHA FLIGHT!!!



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-Marrina thing was an illusion, it didn't happen. Same for Shaman being with Talisman
-Neooqtoq is a Great Beast that Snowbird took the form of in Incredible Hercules. It was meant as a shout out to a story Greg and Fred did with Snowbird some time ago.
-I don't think this is really Heather's "doing", looks like she got the same process Aurora is about to get done and got brain washed.

[weaponAlpha]

thanks from clearing that up!

[rplass]

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I love how Northstar basically says, "Nobody is faster than me"...


... and he's right! I'm so glad to have writers and artists who can actually write and draw a speedster. Well done! But it's also nice that Freg put in the superlative, and nice the way they had him say it, just perfect.

Not understanding Kyle's last name. I was pretty sure it's "Roy", not "Jinadu", so dunno what's up with that.

And.. Talisman!!! In an VR sweat lodge, yeah, but I'll take it, and she's wearing the classic costume, not the physics-defying Omega Filght thingy (which I still don't understand how it could stay on)

No explanation about how Puck got out of Hell, but we'll see, maybe that's revealed later.

Overall a great issue again!

[Guardian98]

I really enjoyed this issue, great pacing and it kept me wanting more. Cannot wait for 3!!!

[DMK]

Loved the issue. The plot thickens nicely, Puck's recent history is touched upon, the pacing was great... and Dale's art (with help from Andrew and Sonia) was incredible. His Heather is absolutely gorgeous (I've had a slight crush on Heather for going on 25 years.) Really looking forward to #3.

[suzene]

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The reveal of Aurora's sexual abuse pretty much soured the whole issue for me. Even aside from the fact that last thing the industry needs is more female characters with rape/sexual abuse as the go-to for past angst and trauma, there are two modes most writers default to with Aurora: she's either one of two flavors of crazy (boy or bat****) or she's a victim. I am very disappointed to see Van Lente and Pak going for the latter -- and no, it doesn't matter if this is all about her overcoming her past. With everything that Jeanne-Marie suffered at the hands the Sisters, various AF villains over the years, the Director, and The Children of the Hand, retconning in more victimhood and making it the sexual abuse of a child came off as gratuitous and sleezy.

I've got to hand it to the writers -- after how well the team in general and Northstar in particular have been handled, I didn't think there was anything they could do to make me consider dropping this book full stop, but they've managed to pull it off.

[Phil]

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I'll probably re-hash some stuff I covered in my review here, but with actual spoilers.

I personally really liked the Great Beast connection to Snowbird being taken down, especially the tie-in with the Sacred Invasion storyline and the foreshadowing of (presumably) Ranark. If we hadn't seen the #4 cover I'd be wracking my brains as to who it'd be.

Heather's line about killing Puck really has me thinking. To me that's the most uncharacteristic thing we've seen so far.
Everything to get her daughter back could well be her own choice, but that definitely hints to brainwashing or evil clone etc. as Aurora's treatment hints.

I'm loving Puck's reappearance.
If he came back exactly the same as he always was I'd have be annoyed by the lack of continuity, but this sinister Puck is a nice touch. Especially talking to the bear.

As hinted in my review, I loved the Talisman cameo. It was a really touching moment, espcially with the use of the word 'unity' or at least it would have been had it been real.
Marrina's desire to be loved and accepted shows there's still the Marrina Smallwood we knew and loved beneath her teen angst exterior/front.

Seeing Kyle was alive pleased me, I really didn't think they'd kill him off in #1.

Great art, great attention to detail, and the Mac splash page was very cool indeed for someone who's never really had that much action in the grand scheme of the title.

I loved the human element and the more realistic take on 'Fear' and the involvement of humanity within a superhero dominated world.

[Sasquatch17]

I really like this new /old Alpha Flight!!!

I hope Marvel extends this beyond eight issues!

[DelBubs]

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Obviously I liked it and there is no cause for me to gnash teeth. Everything I expected it to be and more. First thoughts were that the whole business with Aurora and abuse by social worker didn't really tick me off as much as I thought it would. Sounded a bit cheap when I first heard of it and it does come across as a bit of a redundant plot thread, but I shall reserve judgement.

This is purely speculative, but after reading this I , for the moment will work under the premise that Heather isn't really Heather. It's the flimsiest of reasons, but I don't believe even a totally controlled Heather would say what she did while fighting Puck. That amount of vitriol would have to be directly implanted if she was hypnotised or mind contolled, given what they shared in the past. It could well be her body, but any vestige of Heather is well buried. Probably wrong, but ...

Citadel and Purple Woman are really growing on me. Would love to see them stick about when all this is over.

Cody was never as bad as he is at the moment, something or some one must be sitting in his head.

Can't wait for #3

[Phil]

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Also, I was quite shocked that Agent Brown was on the 'evil' side.
I quite liked him in Omega Flight and finally thought the team had found a non-corrupt liason.
Hopefully he's being mind controlled too, rather than just being a company Yes Man.

[DelBubs]

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It's Jerry Jaxon and Heathers really Delphine Courtney, who's personna resides in the suit 8-)

I forgot about the Agent Brown issue. I'm with you, he must be being controlled. To much of a character shift.

[Alpha Rider]

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I wonder what Puck ment by "Known to you mortals ..." I wonder if he's possessed or something?

[-K-M-]

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I wonder what Puck ment by "Known to you mortals ..." I wonder if he's possessed or something?

He was the ruler of Hell not to long ago, so he is abit messed in the head right now

[suzene]

Obviously I liked it and there is no cause for gnashing of teeth.

Del, would you mind clarifying what you mean by that? Because it's coming off as really dismissive.

[bigbloo]

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A pretty solid piece of work from the whole creative team.

It's looking like the "not brainwashed" line from #1 was a lie. But I can't really see Pak and Van Lente doing something like that and ending up saying "oh yeah she was brainwashed, so of course she is going to say she isn't brainwashed!". So this whole Unity thing has to be something else. Because if it turns out to be brainwashing I will be very disappointed.

Now if it isn't brainwashing, I can conceivably see Heather as being weirded out by Puck's new personality (heck, I'm currently weirded out by Puck), hence the "freak" line. I mean, he just came from hell. Who can say that he isn't some demon. I'm very intrigued by his statement that he knows what is going on, that he has information from hell. Could all the Unity folks be possessed by demons?

I'm tending to agree with suzene on Aurora's new molester. I feel it's unnecessary, as we could have used any of the old ones, and it would still work. I mean, think of the impact of seeing Soeur Anne strapped to a chair with a rubber ball in her mouth. Think of all the publicity we would get!

I'm very skeptical of Snowbird being beaten by a Boxbot. Shape shifting isn't her only power. She is superstrong as well. Even in her Narya form, she should have been able to smash em. Narya smash!

Finally, now I know why we havent seen Rocksie for so long. She was in hell with Puck.

:)

[DelBubs]

Del, would you mind clarifying what you mean by that? Because it's coming off as really dismissive.
Not my intention. It is directed at myself. I was trying to convey that I couldn't find anything in the comic to make me get overly negative. I did have a tendency to only see negatives and ignore positives at one time. If the comment has been taken as dismissive then I can only apologise, never my intention. I'll amend.

[suzene]

Not my intention. It is directed at myself. I was trying to convey that I couldn't find anything in the comic to make me get overly negative. I did have a tendency to only see negatives and ignore positives at one time. If the comment has been taken as dismissive then I can only apologise, never my intention. I'll amend.

Thanks. It's hard to judge for tone over the internet, so I figured I'd ask.

[varo]

suzene, no offense but never once did the scene say molested, it said abused, which can range from mental to physical, not necessarily sexual. thats just a interpretation. i interpreted as every time jm's powers flared up they threw her in a dark room. i fully understand where your coming from as far as the social issue, but a comic book forum seems like the last place you would want to discuss them.

[DelBubs]

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I re-read what was written before I responded to Suzene. The implication was Sexual Abuse, "There were others", "Why, whenever he got found out, his superiors just shipped him off to another town". All the images of the other victims are young females.

This sequence took place in an AF comic so this seems like a reasonable place to discuss the subject matter.

Hopefully no offense will be taken, my intention was to be devils advocate and nothing else.

[suzene]

suzene, no offense but never once did the scene say molested, it said abused, which can range from mental to physical, not necessarily sexual. thats just a interpretation. i interpreted as every time jm's powers flared up they threw her in a dark room. i fully understand where your coming from as far as the social issue, but a comic book forum seems like the last place you would want to discuss them.

Art doesn't happen in a vacuum. It reflects the attitudes of the world around it and affects the people partaking of it, and keeping quiet about the negative aspects helps exactly nothing except to allow them to continue unchallenged. Trust that I don't start these discussions for pleasure. I've been waiting for this series as long as the rest of the Flight fandom, and having my enjoyment pulled up short by this sort of thing is not fun. Neither is voicing criticism on a matter of importance to me, knowing that it is going be met with indifference or dismissal from most corners (and in that, I am speaking generally, not specifically of this forum). But it's either speak up or be complicit, and I sleep better if I go with the former.

As for the rest of it: Firstly, the scene is clearly meant to suggest that Jeanne-Marie was sexually abused -- the story that was attached to the scene, that of the person with authority shuffled off to a new batch of victims every time his misconduct was discovered, is a direct lift from the Catholic church sex abuse cases. Secondly, if there wasn't supposed to be any implication of sexual abuse, the scene would not have to be rooted in subtext, as the physical and mental abuse in Byrne's run was directly mentioned. Thirdly, if there was meant to be no suggestion of sexual abuse, FVL could simply have said so when directly questioned about it.

You're free to believe what you want in the face of available evidence, but don't imply that I'm having an unreasonable reaction to a scene with other obvious interpretations.

[suzene]

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Hopefully no offense will be taken, my intention was to be devils advocate and nothing else.

I don't know if this is to me or to varo, but there's no offense on my part.

[bigbloo]

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He was the ruler of Hell not to long ago, so he is abit messed in the head right now

From what Puck said, and where he came from, I'm getting the suspicion that Unity may be something like demonic possession.

[bigbloo]

Dear Forum,

Eat my reply one more time, and we are in a fight.

No love,
Me



This happened to me a few times. This is why when I have a long reply, I now compose it on a word document or something. :)

[Legerd]

This happened to me a few times. This is why when I have a long reply, I now compose it on a word document or something. :)

I always copy my longer posts, then if they get lost I can simply paste them.

[Phil]

never once did the scene say molested, it said abused, which can range from mental to physical, not necessarily sexual. thats just a interpretation. i interpreted as every time jm's powers flared up they threw her in a dark room. i fully understand where your coming from as far as the social issue, but a comic book forum seems like the last place you would want to discuss them.

When I read through the issue and the scene in question I did take it to be sexual abuse from the male in question, especially with the other victims(who wouldn't have light powers) and the abuser being moved around.
To me (while obviously not condoning any kind of abuse, lets get that out there for starters) it didn't come off as completely out of nowhere.
In many cases that I've read of (second hand, obviously so I have no real basis to judge it upon and may just be falling to media hype etc.) in a lot of institutions/cases where abuse has been recorded (not just religious institutes either, let's get that stated clearly as well - I'm in no-way making a slight upon religion either, the fact that JM suffered at the hands of nuns is aside) mental abuse and physical abuse tend to go hand in hand.

Had it suddenly been revealed that Heather's reason for joining Unity was that she was molested then I'd be writing this Volume off to the great pile of Mantlo & Lobdell-isms.
(Marrina, Snowbird even more so, but that's just even more ridiculous.)

So for me, while I definitely agree that the implication was sexual abuse and that the story could well have been told without it, I don't feel that it's completely out of place, and nor does it have any baring on my thoughts towards Aurora. In the way I see it, this isn't the cause of the Aurora personality.

But that's just me.
I'm a statistic/database geek who likes pretty pictures. I don't always tend to get themes.

And without putting a mod hat on, this is just my personal opinion so anyone can feel free to disagree: As Del's said, the issue's been raised within the comic so I feel it's very relevant as long as we're basing the conversation on JM/Aurora. I believe that the majority of us are mature enough to deal with the subject here as long as we're keeping it relevant to AF.

Putting my mod hat on: If anyone does have a problem with the subject matter feel free to give Ben, Del, Rob or myself a PM.

[DelBubs]

One thing that did occur to me. Did FVL interpret Byrnes original story to mean sexual abuse. There's many recorded cases of problems within Catholic institutions. It wouldn't be to much of a leap to assume that Byrne meant sexual abuse. If FVL was working from that premise, it doesn't mean I suddenly agree with that plot device being used, but I could understand better why it was. If it's just FVL expanding on an established story with controversial/sensational plotlines, then hmmm??

[Phil]

If it's just FVL expanding on an established story with controversial/sensational plotlines, then hmmm??
That was how I took it.

[eallison]

One thing that did occur to me. Did FVL interpret Byrnes original story to mean sexual abuse. There's many recorded cases of problems within Catholic institutions. It wouldn't be to much of a leap to assume that Byrne meant sexual abuse. If FVL was working from that premise, it doesn't mean I suddenly agree with that plot device being used, but I could understand better why it was. If it's just FVL expanding on an established story with controversial/sensational plotlines, then hmmm??

I can't answer FOR him, but it never came off like sexual abuse in the original story to me. It was "simple" mental torture and beating. The saddest part is, the Sisters likely meant well. That doesn't excuse what they did, not one bit, but it wasn't IMHO intended by them as evil.

I personally didn't care for the addition of sexual abuse only because, hey, Aurora already has acres of bad road to work through, and adding more is a bit troubling. Knowing it was done because Marvel didn't want to offend Catholics (again IMHO, any Catholic, of which I am a lapsed one, who would find fault with this wouldn't be reading most of Marvel or DC's output now anyway) softens things slightly. Still not crazy about it, but it won't be a deal-breaker on the book.

In thinking more about this, I think I preferred Marrina's old look. This one isn't BAD, not at all. Just not what I think of when I visualize of "my" mental picture of Marrina. Seeing her back and not simply a clone for Osborn's schemes is nice.

Take it and run,

[Legerd]

It makes sense to me that Freg went with the sexual abuse angle for just one reason: Marvel wouldn't let them use a Catholic figure (nun or priest) in this role so they had to go with a different, non-Catholic authority figure, that being a social worker. The only thing is a social worker wouldn't be involved with her punishments, in fact he wouldn't even see her very often, so he couldn't fill the role of mental/physical abuser that's needed here. The next logical idea, if they are to use this character, would be to make him a sexual abuser.

[suzene]

It makes sense to me that Freg went with the sexual abuse angle for just one reason: Marvel wouldn't let them use a Catholic figure (nun or priest) in this role so they had to go with a different, non-Catholic authority figure, that being a social worker. The only thing is a social worker wouldn't be involved with her punishments, in fact he wouldn't even see her very often, so he couldn't fill the role of mental/physical abuser that's needed here. The next logical idea, if they are to use this character, would be to make him a sexual abuser.

Except that contradicts what FVL said about the writers pulling evidence of sexual abuse from the Byrne run. So it's not there just because they couldn't use the nuns.

[DelBubs]

One thing I can't figure from all of this. FVL may or may not have read sexual abuse into Byrnes story, but Marvel would much rather that kinda controversial story than pissing off the Catholic church. What where they going to do? Stop their secret funding, send in Torquemada to discuss respect with the bullpen, a nun in every office with a ruler and a grimace? Being a devout atheist, I don't know what weight the Papacy carries nowadays. Plus the story actually negates the whole annoying 'his holiness' aspect when you read that the authoritites knew of the caretakers proclivities, but instead of reporting them just moved him onto fresher targets?

[suzene]

One thing I can't figure from all of this. FVL may or may not have read sexual abuse into Byrnes story...

Just to be clear, they did (trying to remember to give fair weight to Greg Pak here, because even if FVL is the Alpha Fan on the team, Pak's name is on there too). From my convo on FVL's Twitter:


I'd argue we just forefronted the obvious subtext of what Byrne set up, but I respect your opinion, even if we disagree.

Though, considering how many people's reaction to this has been "What? I never saw that.", I'd question how obvious that subtext is.


but Marvel would much rather that kinda controversial story than pissing off the Catholic church. What where they going to do? Stop their secret funding, send in Torquemada to discuss respect with the bullpen, a nun in every office with a ruler and a grimace? Being a devout atheist, I don't know what weight the Papacy carries nowadays. Plus the story actually negates the whole annoying 'his holiness' aspect when you read that the authoritites knew of the caretakers proclivities, but instead of reporting them just moved him onto fresher targets?

What's considered offensive/inappropriate seems to change from editorial team to editorial team and rarely makes sense to me -- remember when the exploding communion wafer/raped nun storyline from Austen's run about six years back made print, but Northstar having a boyfriend in that same run was considered too controversial? Or how one teen suicide was considered too dark for a children's title over in New Mutants 2.0, but the next creative team on the book was allowed to blow up a whole busload of students? That using an actual nun was considered too risky while still being able to use the true-life behavior widely publicized by the misdeeds of the Catholic Church (though not exclusive to them, sad to say) as shorthand for sexual abuse is just fine is similarly confounding.

But yeah, the last time anyone really made a fuss over a Marvel book that I saw, was the Tea Party folks getting offended about being portrayed accurately in Captain America. If Austen comparing religion to cancer couldn't get the EIC burned in effigy, I don't think this would have made much of a splash. As it is, I think making the sexual abuse explicit has irked more readers than the nuns would have.

[DelBubs]

It's a given now that Aurora was damaged by the caretakers actions, so where, in six more issues, can the writers go with this? Is there going to be some major developement in Aurora's character that would make the reveal even remotely palatable. I hope that this is developed now that it's out there. I would hate for it to be controversy for the sake of controversy with no further mention in the series.

[Phil]

It may well turn out that the abuse was as real as Marrina being on the cover of Vogue...

[DelBubs]

It may well turn out that the abuse was as real as Marrina being on the cover of Vogue...

Are we talking false memory, where a person recounts issues from the past that never happened. Given the actions of the UNITY party so far, it wouldn't be to much of a reach for them to use tactics like that to subvert JM?

So what issue of Vogue :-)

[suzene]

It may well turn out that the abuse was as real as Marrina being on the cover of Vogue...

That seems unlikely. The writers obviously mean the attempt to break/turn Jeanne-Marie to be based in "real" events, otherwise, why try to bring in the nuns or invoke Byrne? And it would break with how the Unity folks have been approaching the team. All the Alphans who are being fed lies are having their heart's desire used as the chink in their armor, but those lies are grounded in actual events -- Shaman does have a strained relationship with Talisman, we can take Marrina's constantly being viewed as a monster by the people she cares for as where her fear of rejection due to her being an alien comes from, etc . Their theory with Aurora seems to be that her heart's desire is to be revenged on those who hurt her when she was young and helpless.

[Phil]

Their theory with Aurora seems to be that her heart's desire is to be revenged on those who hurt her when she was young and helpless.
Yeah, I was grasping at straws, but thought I'd put it out there just in case.

[DelBubs]

I suppose having a controlled wild carefree Aurora would with no aspect of the JM personna would be more beneficial to UNITY. Offering that aspect of her the chance for revenge...?

[Le Messor]

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is Tanaraq being ignored?

No, he's currently fighting Superboy.


I don't believe even a totally controlled Heather would say what she did while fighting Puck. That amount of vitriol would have to be directly implanted

I've been finding the whole run so far comes across that way, though. Marrina, Shaman... v4 feels very angry - and at times childishly so to me.


Marrina's constantly being viewed as a monster by the people she cares

Which she never was in the past, and her storyline has still failed to convince me. She was never isolated or alienated, even in her muggle hometown - Byrne went to the trouble to make that explicit.

The Other...
Suzene, sorry to disappoint you, but I agree with you. When I read it, my mind immediately leapt to the 'Rape as backstory' trope on TV tropes. Yep, it's so common, it's a trope. (Not sure if I got the name right.)

- Le Messor
"The buyer needs a hundred eyes, the seller not one."
~ George Herbert

[suzene]

Which she never was in the past, and her storyline has still failed to convince me. She was never isolated or alienated, even in her muggle hometown - Byrne went to the trouble to make that explicit.

Constantly is exaggeration for impact on my part, admittedly. The two incidents that came to mind were Heather's debating whether or not to tell AF to kill Marrina during the Mantlo run, and Namor ripping her head off more recently, though the "Is there a person in there, or just a monster waiting for a mating call" question has to create a lot of internal conflict and self-doubt anyway. Devil's advocacy aside, before this issue, Marrina's characterization was the weakest part of the new book and remains in my top three gripes about the relaunch. This new characterization just doesn't work for me, getting it in medias res as we have. It's still too hard a change in direction with too thin an explanation, and with eight other teammates plus cameos all jostling for their fair share of page time, there's been no room so far to expand on the reasons for the new attitude. I guess we're seeing why Byrne's unconventional approach to the team way back when worked so well...focusing on their lives apart from Alpha Flight allowed for characterization without overcrowding in terms of number of characters, or characterization at expense of action and vice versa.


Suzene, sorry to disappoint you, but I agree with you. When I read it, my mind immediately leapt to the 'Rape as backstory' trope on TV tropes. Yep, it's so common, it's a trope. (Not sure if I got the name right.)

Now I am confused. I would be disappointed why?

[Le Messor]

Now I am confused. I would be disappointed why?

You and me agreeing on something?
I'm expecting news of the imminent collapse of the universe any minute now... {nemesis}:evil:


Unless they went looking for this evidence after they were told not to use the nuns, and had to come up with a different angle to be able to tell their story. Look, I agree with you that it is a tired trope, but since Freg wrote the story to involve Aurora's MPD, and her mental illness was caused by her abuse at the nuns hands, what are the writers supposed to put in place of the nuns when editorial said they couldn't use them? It's not a great solution, but what else are they to put in?

Any kind of abuse but sexual, as Suzene has outlined? - more to the point, physical / mental abuse.
Adding that specific type is just an extra curveball that's not necessary for her origin.


Not that I'm looking to defend Marvel's actions, 'cause I don't agree with them, but I'm assuming they were more worried with Catholic readers, or their parents who might complain because of that kind of imagery.

That part I'm glad about. I've often got the impression that Marvel has the opposite mandate - "You must put this in or our Catholic / Christian readers won't get offended!"
OTOH, with Aurora, the damage is done. We know she's got Catholic abuse, putting it here would be nothing new - they should've let this one slide; it's already there.

I think that last sentence is a case of me abusing the English language...

- Le Messor
"To be great is to be misunderstood."
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
"To generalize is to be an idiot."
~ William Blake

[Legerd]

Well, first I'm going to give the writing team the benefit of the doubt and assume that the editorial decree went deeper than "You can't have someone in a habit and wimple tied up in this scene" and excise religion from the equation completely. Hence, no mention of nuns or God or faith or sin, no "sister" anything. We do know that they can mention there was abuse going on at the orphanage itself, due to the first page of the scene. So:

- Old lady tied to chair. "Look, it's Anne [Insert Very French Last Name Here], head of the orphanage. She beat you until you stopped trying to be good for its own sake, until you stopped being good to avoid fresh pain, until you just accepted that you were worth nothing and asked for beatings to prove you were good. Would you like to show her how that feels?" Any casual reader bypasses the religious connections completely, but the long-time readers know the full origin story.

Maybe, but comes off pretty weak if you cut out the religious aspect of it. Much of her suffering was due to her believing that she was sinning, which was enforced by the nuns who are "god's representatives" on Earth. In a child's mind their authority is above question. "Using a sister without using a sister" might be passable for new readers, but for older fans it comes across as pretty lame, and messing with continuity.


- Old man tied to chair. "Look, it's your social worker. You told him about the orphanage -- the beatings/the dark/the hungry nights crying alone, etc. You begged and pleaded to be taken somewhere else, anywhere else, but he never believed you/did nothing. You have the power now. Would you like to hear him beg, Jeanne-Marie?" Nuns? What nuns? There were nuns?

Comes off pretty weak again as he wasn't the one who directly inflicted the pain. I can't see Aurora turning to the dark side to get even with someone not directly involved with the abuse.


- Walter tied to a chair. "Look, Jeanne-Marie, it's the man who took advantage of you again and again with the help of that trollop..." Because if you feel that exploring sexual trauma is just the way to go wrt Jeanne-Marie, that she felt violated by what Walter and Aurora did to her -- even once Walter knew about her DID -- isn't even subtext, it's explicit on the page and the implications of its effect on Jeanne-Marie's psyche have never been touched on.

They can't use Walter as he'd be getting the brainwashing treatment too. Plus, Aurora was the personality that wanted, and pursued the relationship with him, while the Jeanne-Marie personality, though disliking Walter, didn't hate him, and would be too moral to seek revenge, especially on someone who is helpless.

Sorry, I just don't see the sexual abuse version to be so awful that it can't be used. Besides, it would be far more likely to explain why her mind split along sexual lines; her Aurora personality being promiscuous while the Jeanne-Marie personality is prudish.

[Le Messor]

In a slightly different line of thinking:
So you assume if they used Walter, he'd actually be in the room? Not just an illusion?

[Legerd]

You and me agreeing on something?
Any kind of abuse but sexual, as Suzene has outlined? - more to the point, physical / mental abuse.
Adding that specific type is just an extra curveball that's not necessary for her origin.

I agree it's not necessary, except that Marvel is taking out any mention of the aspect of her origin that had the greatest impact on her young mind: her religious beliefs. While a child might question an adult, few would question a religious authority. Hell, even many adults won't question a minister, imam, priest, nun, etc. And as I said above, the sexual abuse take on her origin is not so unimaginably awful as a plot device, that it can't be used if they have to take out the religious aspect which was an important part of it. Her mind broke because she couldn't come to terms with the idea that god would give her powers, only to have his representatives call her a liar, and a sinner before punishing her.

[Legerd]

In a slightly different line of thinking:
So you assume if they used Walter, he'd actually be in the room? Not just an illusion?
Read the rest of my post on that.

[Le Messor]

In the rest of your post, you say that they can't use Walter because he'd be getting brainwashed too - which led me to ask if you assumed they'd need him in the room with JM to use him against her.
Is that your take on it?

I figure they're only using holographic (or something) versions of whoever they're using - so they could be brainwashing JM in one room one way, and at the same time brainwashing Walt in another room another way, and giving Puck a rinse and spray in another room.

- Le Messor
"I’d love to, but I’m converting my calendar watch from Julian to Gregorian."

[Phil]

Their theory with Aurora seems to be that her heart's desire is to be revenged on those who hurt her when she was young and helpless.

Thinking about it, it may not be the case.
They're not using everyone's hearts desires per se, else Heather & Mac would be a happy family with their child in her head.
My take on the current Aurora situation is that as Jeanne-Marie the first time she suffered major mental trauma/abuse at the hands of the nuns it created the Aurora personality, so Unity are trying to create a greater trauma in order to create a new even more dysfunctional personality, one rooted in hatred rather than fear.
In order to create that personality, brainwashing her in order to believe she'd been physically abused as well as mentally (be it by nuns originally or the caretaker after editorial) could well create that personality.


They can't use Walter as he'd be getting the brainwashing treatment too.
I disagree as I'm pretty sure Talisman isn't actually there.
Using Walter as a sexual tormentor to turn JM/Aurora/Unknown personality against AF would have been an interesting choice.


While a child might question an adult, few would question a religious authority.
Hmm, I was the other way round.
In my head my parents conceived me whereas a religious authority was a virtual stranger as long as I stayed within the guidelines.
But maybe that's just me.


I don't believe Aurora is supposed to be a factor at the moment
That's how I read it too.

[suzene]

Thinking about it, it may not be the case.
They're not using everyone's hearts desires per se, else Heather & Mac would be a happy family with their child in her head.

Assuming deep down that Heather's not tired of having a husband who dies on her about once a year. The geese migrate north again, the sugar maples run high with sap, and Mac needs a new tombstone... ;)

Seriously, though, good point. Hard to know how to read it without knowing whether Heather got her brains scrambled before she went turncoat. Because if she did, then it seems that the Unity process works via giving the subject a taste of what they want most, and making them believe Cody's people can deliver -- she did seem to think Mac would eventually fall in. But if this is all Heather...


My take on the current Aurora situation is that as Jeanne-Marie the first time she suffered major mental trauma/abuse at the hands of the nuns it created the Aurora personality, so Unity are trying to create a greater trauma in order to create a new even more dysfunctional personality, one rooted in hatred rather than fear.That seems a bit like planning to starve a lion, then stick your head in its mouth, though. Speedsters are right up there with teleporters and mentalists on the list of powers that are hard to contain, and they're already getting a taste of how much trouble just an annoyed one can cause. It seems like they'd be wanting to aim for integration with a shift in loyalty over additional fractures.

[Phil]

Assuming deep down that Heather's not tired of having a husband who dies on her about once a year. The geese migrate north again, the sugar maples run high with sap, and Mac needs a new tombstone... ;)

Am stifling laughter at work now =D>


That seems a bit like planning to starve a lion, then stick your head in its mouth, though. Speedsters are right up there with teleporters and mentalists on the list of powers that are hard to contain, and they're already getting a taste of how much trouble just an annoyed one can cause. It seems like they'd be wanting to aim for integration with a shift in loyalty over additional fractures.
And that'd be where Persuasion comes into play....?

[Legerd]

I disagree as I'm pretty sure Talisman isn't actually there.
Using Walter as a sexual tormentor to turn JM/Aurora/Unknown personality against AF would have been an interesting choice.

Perhaps, but it wouldn't have made much sense for her to hold that much loathing for him. She has been shown to be getting tired of his flirting, but not to the point of wanting to torture him.



Hmm, I was the other way round. In my head my parents conceived me whereas a religious authority was a virtual stranger as long as I stayed within the guidelines.
But maybe that's just me.

Parents don't have the kind of ultimate authority religious figures do. They speak for god on Earth, no one has higher authority in the mind of someone who is deeply religious. And Jeanne-Marie was extremely religious at that time.

[DelBubs]

I think that we have to accept that this scenario is now out there and no matter what side you find yourself, it is still at the end of the day a comic. I would hope that no matter how emotive a subject may be, we are all able to realise when it may be taking us to a place we don't need to go. Maybe a step back and reread before we hit that reply button would be in order?

[Phil]

Perhaps, but it wouldn't have made much sense for her to hold that much loathing for him. She has been shown to be getting tired of his flirting, but not to the point of wanting to torture him.
If it actually happened, no.
My point was that if they brainwash her to believe Walter sexually abused her before she joined AF.


Parents don't have the kind of ultimate authority religious figures do. They speak for god on Earth, no one has higher authority in the mind of someone who is deeply religious.

It all depends on the religious figure involved.
For me, the fifth commandment gives my parents that authority and I'm deeply religious.
But you said adult rather than parent specifically and you're bringing it back to JM who never knew hers, so we'll just leave my opinon and go back to the fictional world.

[Phil]

Right;

Due to PM's from members regarding tension within this thread, a few posts have been moved over to the real world section of the site here (http://www.alphaflight.net/showthread.php?5737-J-M-amp-AF-2).
Not against anyone in particular and not because of anyone in particular.

This has been an Admin decision based upon both keeping the peace AND trying to reflect the fact that this is a fair site for level minded people, open to other peoples opinions and general discussion without witchhunt.
Everyone has a right to their opinion and a freedom of speech.

If you want to make anyone a figure of hatred for the decision, feel free to fill my inbox with it as I'm an ocean away.

The posts that have been kept here are relevant to the subject and you may continue to discuss the reprocussions towards Jeanne-Marie here as long as we're keeping it civil and that members are dissecting the impact it has upon the character, because whether people like it or not sexual abuse HAS been implied. The majority of us are adults here, and the comic is using a real-world scenario within it that shouldn't be shyed away from.
Discussing JM's abuse and the larger context it brings to you as a reader, be it male or female, religious or not is welcomed as long as it relates to the (comic)issue at hand.

The other thread will be kept open for general discussion as long as it doesn't continue to get personal to member versus member.

[Legerd]

If it actually happened, no.
My point was that if they brainwash her to believe Walter sexually abused her before she joined AF.

Okay, I see what you mean. Ah, but how would she react to serving on the same team (assuming he gets brainwashed onto the team as well) with the guy she's been brainwashed to hate?


It all depends on the religious figure involved.
For me, the fifth commandment gives my parents that authority and I'm deeply religious.
But you said adult rather than parent specifically and you're bringing it back to JM who never knew hers, so we'll just leave my opinon and go back to the fictional world.

I'm looking at it from how friends of mine (who are from Quebec), as well as news shows I've watched on the subject, describe just how powerful the church's hold is on the average Quebecois, assuming that Byrne's take on it was along those lines.

[Phil]

Okay, I see what you mean. Ah, but how would she react to serving on the same team (assuming he gets brainwashed onto the team as well) with the guy she's been brainwashed to hate?
I suppose I am basing my thoughts on the variant to #4 and presuming the shadowy figure in Alpha Strike is Aurora.


I'm looking at it from how friends of mine (who are from Quebec), as well as news shows I've watched on the subject, describe just how powerful the church's hold is on the average Quebecois, assuming that Byrne's take on it was along those lines.
Being neither Canadian nor Catholic I suppose I wouldn't know.
No harm done.

[Legerd]

I suppose I am basing my thoughts on the variant to #4 and presuming the shadowy figure in Alpha Strike is Aurora.

I think it's her too.



Being neither Canadian nor Catholic I suppose I wouldn't know.
No harm done.

No harm, no foul. I like my comics to be based as much on the real world as possible (science, psychology, etc.) for the sake of logical story progression, and continuity. For that reason I try to connect the two in ways to help me make sense of the plots. Maybe that'll help explain why I tenaciously hold onto an idea?

[varo]

i no longer believe the figure is aurora, if you look at dales site issue 3's previews, jp clearly has aurora in his arms as they bust out of dept. h

[Phil]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean she stays with him in #4.

[Talisman]

Hmm...curiouser and curiouser. I have a feeling that it may indeed be a revived Diamond Lil...or that's who I would really like it to be. :)

[rplass]

Hmm...curiouser and curiouser. I have a feeling that it may indeed be a revived Diamond Lil...or that's who I would really like it to be. :)

That would be cool! We dont have the spoiler function on this site. Use white font instead (highlight to see)

Oh and welcome to AF.net!

Love,
rplass

[Talisman]

That would be cool! We dont have the spoiler function on this site. Use white font instead (highlight to see)

Oh and welcome to AF.net!

Love,
rplass

Gah! Sorry! I'll try to remember that for future reference! Ooh, I just thought that maybe it's not even a woman at all, but a revived Wild Child! He had long hair!

[Le Messor]

Gah! Sorry! I'll try to remember that for future reference!

You can also edit it into your above post...
Though I'm not sure if a fan theory counts as a spoiler.

- LM
"The soul would have no rainbow had the eyes no tears."

[Talisman]

You can also edit it into your above post...
Though I'm not sure if a fan theory counts as a spoiler.

- LM
"The soul would have no rainbow had the eyes no tears."
Blergh. I feel like I've just walked out feeling confident, not realizing I had toilet paper stuck to my pants.

[Le Messor]

Blergh. I feel like I've just walked out feeling confident, not realizing I had toilet paper stuck to my pants.

I'd be more worried about that mustard stain.

[Talisman]

I'd be more worried about that mustard stain.
Only if they were white jeans, which I stopped wearing after 1986 lol

[Mokole]

I was supposed to stop in 1986? Egads, heavens to mergatroid!

[kozzi24]

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I would have preferred to see Heather NOT brainwashed, but to see the character acting on her own under different motivations
Brainwashing is most effective if it incorporates elements of the victim’s desires, so the custody of Clair could indicate that this was a long range plan. That would also explain why the custody went to distant cousins rather than Heather’s parents or one of her 6(/) siblings.
That approach to brainwashing is shown in the tracts on Marrina and Shaman.
I disliked the abuse reveal of Aurora almost as much as Suzene did. Unnecessary and almost trite with her established Catholic past. Hopefully they will swipe this as part of the brainwashing that the "programmers" guessed wrong at. They knew J-M was abused, so made an erroneous assumption on the nature of the abuse. To me, the psychological abuse that J-M has suffered in the past remains far more horrifying than any sexual abuse could be, because you know it wasn’t an incident but how she was raised THROUGHOUT childhood. I never saw sexual context in Byrne’s stories, but a logical expansion of nuns with corrective rulers taken to the extreme. To the detriment and harm of the child. Nd when faced with a elf-eared girl that could fly, the nuns did not come off as evil in that story.
As far as the idea of Walt being an abuser of Aurora...JEANNE-MARIE may see it that way. She never chose to involve herself with him, AURORA did.
I don’t know if I remember correctly, but didn’t Tanaraq (sic) take the form that Walt created during his attempt to make himself into a Hulk figure? This allowed Snowbird to take the form because it was created in Canada. It also means that gamma rays were part of that creation, so Walt’s defeat is credible by my path of logic.
I’m still not liking the "Purple Woman" name over "Persuasion."
Just by body language, I thought the shadowy figure on #4 was Aurora from the first time I saw it. I think Jeanne-Marie and Aurora will be on different teas.

[Le Messor]

I don't think Walt's defeat had anything to do with gamma radiation?
I'm pretty sure Tanaraq's form is Sasquatch - witness that's what Snowbird's parents showed her. It was the fact that the amalgamation of Walt and Tanaraq was created on Canadian soil that allowed Snowbird to assume the form.

With you on Persuasion.

- Le Messor
"Guess who woke up on the wrong side of the bison."
- Sokka

[Flightpath07]

http://canadas-own-the-flight.blogspot.com/2011/09/flightpath07s-review-of-af-vol-4-issue.html

The above is my full review, such as it is. I'm a few weeks late to this party, but I'll add my two cents worth into the fray.

Personally, I have no problems with any of the writing or plot within this issue. I think it all works, its all good, and I look forward to more of it. I am happily confident. No, this isn't John Byrne's Alpha Flight; but, if you want John Byrne's Alpha Flight, then i suggets you READ John Byrne's Alpha Flight.

At the end of the day, this is Alpha Flight as Greg and Fred image them. That means changes. Change happens. This series is good enough, that i am willing to swallow the changes, and hang on to this great series with future anticipation for many more good things. Van Lente and Pak - best writers of comics in the business today. We hit the jackpot, people!