Good article on saving the industry

[Flightpath07]

Attracting young readers is the way to save comics.

Article link below.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/10/how-marvel-dc-and-you-can-save-the-comic-industry-by-phil-hampton/

[Sypes]

I feel terrible buying the new AF series for my godsons now... they are only 7 and 3 haha! I'll leave it up to the parents to share them with their own kids now, or when they are older ;) I just want to make sure they get addicted to AF as early as possible hahaha

[Alpha Rider]

I think the only true way to save comics is to go back to Newsprint paper which will lower the cost of the book. Plus get the comic books back into the cornner stores again, like back in the day with the old "Marvel Rack" or going to the $1 store and having a 3 for a $1 bag. You got three random books for a $1. If you make it afordibal for kids then they'll buy it, and parents won't hesitate to buy it either.

[EccentricSage]

They need to do a better job getting tpb volumes into bookstores. Manga boomed in the West as soon as they started pushing tpb instead of the individual issues. It would be a great way for newer fans to get a hold of stuff they missed without having to order tons of old issues online.I mean, hell, I was missing quite a lot because it's hard to keep track of all the series and characters, and the individual issues were becoming too expensive. I'd be at the bookstore so fast Northstar's head would spin, if they started putting out limited tpb reprints of all the old comic books. There was a lot of great stuff that I'd like to read, but I just can't spend the kind of time and money it would take, and the individual issues are such a pain to store and preserve. There are issues I've had to buy replacements for because they fell apart!

[EccentricSage]

I think the only true way to save comics is to go back to Newsprint paper which will lower the cost of the book. Plus get the comic books back into the cornner stores again, like back in the day with the old "Marvel Rack" or going to the $1 store and having a 3 for a $1 bag. You got three random books for a $1. If you make it afordibal for kids then they'll buy it, and parents won't hesitate to buy it either.

I like that idea. I started reading comics because I got a set of the first 5 issues of X-Men 2099 that was discounted. Wore them out and went and re-bought them. lol Then I started buying random stuff from the back-issues bin that were half-off, and got hooked on X-Factor, Excalibur, Uncanny X-Men... started buying those regularly. Then I started buying back issues of series like Alpha Flight that certain characters used to be in and got into even more series.

I guess it's kind of like drugs. XD

[Alphan East]

Excellent idea. When I first got into comics in my younger days, half the excitement was running down to the corner store to grab the latest issue off the rack.
If you want a product to appeal to the masses... you need to make it easily available to the masses. :)

[Alpha Rider]

I like that idea. I started reading comics because I got a set of the first 5 issues of X-Men 2099 that was discounted. Wore them out and went and re-bought them. lol Then I started buying random stuff from the back-issues bin that were half-off, and got hooked on X-Factor, Excalibur, Uncanny X-Men... started buying those regularly. Then I started buying back issues of series like Alpha Flight that certain characters used to be in and got into even more series.

I guess it's kind of like drugs. XD

Thats the whole point of comic books is to be fun. But now we have these stupid "collectors" who ruined the industry. When I was a kid I'd colour in the books, cut out the charaters, and so forth, but it was only worth like 20 cents at the time. No big deal. Now a books is like $5. A few years back I didn't have much money, and I was contimplating about buying a couple of books or going out to eat at McDonalds, and I was making like $12/h at the time and I went to the comic store and then wanted to go for lunch. But what kind of world do we live in when a person can't decide of buying a few books or lunch. I hate to think that these artest are making like $200 + per page, and I'm scraping dimes and pennies to get enough to eat or buy there stupid book.

[DelBubs]

My limited understanding is that Direct Market was more economically viable than mass outlets. With the mass market there was a sale or return policy which meant that large amounts of comics would go back each month and get pulped. With Direct Sales that doesn't happen. Given that comics nowadays are only a tiny part of the big two, with Video Games, Movies, Animated series and toys probably bringing in more, then they only need to publish to maintain copyright.

When Alpha vol 1 was cancelled I believe the figures were 130k+ units per month, now 50k+ is considered good. There's a good piece at the Comics Journal (http://classic.tcj.com/history/a-comics-journal-history-of-the-direct-market-part-one)which will definately clarify a lot better than I can.

[DIGGER]

[QUOTE=EccentricSage;81825]They need to do a better job getting tpb volumes into bookstores.

This could be the main problem for initial sales of comics. Yes I have bought TPBs too but if the average reader is not buying the issues when they first come out and instead elect to wait for the collected set, the publishers will not have an accurate gage as to popularity of the series. Another problem I think the industry has is these multi title crossover stories. If you are a regular purchaser of a title but it is only parts 3,8 and 13 of a crossover do you really want to pick up the other titles or are you more likely to drop the one you usually read? I know I'm likely to do the latter. And on a side note how many "event" series do we need in a year anyway?

DIGGER

[Flightpath07]

And on a side note how many "event" series do we need in a year anyway?

Well, i think the Big 2 seem to feel that you pretty much need at least one every year! It may work to get readers to buy issues of series that they normally don't, but does it really work long-term? I doubt it, as if it did they wouldn't need that 'big event' to happen so often.

[Le Messor]

Well, i think the Big 2 seem to feel that you pretty much need at least one every year!

I've been hearing feedback that there are people who only read for the events, and feel that a title is on hold until it gets to the next one.
I won't say what I think here, but
1365

re: the article that started this thread:
I rarely see people's tastes who so strongly gel with mine - and I do note he listed Byrne's Alpha Flight as a classic.

I agree with the thread, but go further: It was reading comics as a kid that got me into comics. Those comics were aimed at kids - and I still enjoy them as an adult.
The industry seems to have forgotten its roots, and now I just find most of them bland because of it. So focussed on taking themselves seriously, they've forgotten to be fun. So focussed on 'grim 'n' gritty', they've forgotten the heroes.

No, comics aren't just for kids - but they should be readable by kids.

- Le Messor
"Whatever happened to the heroes?"
~ Joss Stone
"We don't need another hero."
~ Tina Turner
"I'm holding out for a hero!"
~ Bonnie Tyler.
"Stop fighting, you lot! Unless there's jello involved..."
~ me

[Flightpath07]

As (almost) always, i agree with Mik. (Except about Tina Turner in jello - yuck!)

[Alpha Rider]

I agree with the thread, but go further: It was reading comics as a kid that got me into comics. Those comics were aimed at kids - and I still enjoy them as an adult.
The industry seems to have forgotten its roots, and now I just find most of them bland because of it. So focussed on taking themselves seriously, they've forgotten to be fun. So focussed on 'grim 'n' gritty', they've forgotten the heroes.

No, comics aren't just for kids - but they should be readable by kids.

- Le Messor
"Whatever happened to the heroes?"
~ Joss Stone
"We don't need another hero."
~ Tina Turner
"I'm holding out for a hero!"
~ Bonnie Tyler.
"Stop fighting, you lot! Unless there's jello involved..."
~ me

I think that people forget that comic books were always aimed at kids and teenagers. Back in the 40's and 50's you had the real crime stories and the horror, and love stories that were more popullar than superhero books. That was until the CCA put alot of companies out and set the industry back 20 years.

[Flightpath07]

I think that people forget that comic books were always aimed at kids and teenagers.

The operative word there is "were".

When you forget who your market is, and snub the very ones who should naturally love you, you are a doomed industry. The reason comics sell far less than they used to, is mainly because the percentages of kids who read comics has dramatically fallen. Yes, they have many other things to do now, far more than when i was a child. But you do not combat that by trying harder to sell to only adults - that's just dumb.

I hate to be grumpy about this, but the industry is a ticking time bomb...with nobody to blame but themselves.

And, as a comics fan, that pisses me off. And it should.

[EccentricSage]

Lets not forget writers and editors who will go out of their way to snub long time fans as well. I still laugh every time I think of Frank Tieri bragging to me about his book selling 10,000 copies, accusing me of cursing him out in private message, etc. e_e And then there's the guy who killed off Diamond Lil for no reason, claiming in so many words 'I'll abuse the characters all I want, fans of those characters will still buy the books'. People like these pretty quickly drive fans like myself away.


As for comics not being fun anymore, I half agree. I do thing there is a place for grim and gritty in some story lines, and I'm glad writers and artists have the freedom to go there now. The problem is it's really no more realistic for every day to be a bloody battle for life than it is for angst and violence to get glossed over. I find a lot of comics now impossible to get into because in real life, people take the time to have fun, enjoy each-other 's company, etc. There were some pretty serious story lines about racism, human experimentation, etc. back before the whole 'comic books full of explosions and needless deaths' trend. Those are serious topics and I found it so much easier to care when the characters dealing with them felt like human beings, not marketing ploys tailored to overly specific demographics who will likely be ether tortured or killed sometime soon, or else suddenly turn villain, or both. You get the idea.

[Le Messor]

I think that people forget that comic books were always aimed at kids and teenagers.

With apologies to FP's next post, did you mean 'were' or 'weren't' here? (The rest of your post implies 'weren't'.)
(And it'd make a better counter to my post that way.)

I'll alter my point slightly, then, based on a 'weren't' interpretation:
Comics written to be readable by kids are what got me into the hobby.
They're also the ones that appeal to me. 'Adult' superhero comics do not. They feel like they're superhero comics for and by people who hate superheroes; as somebody who's reading superheroes, I don't hate them.

That's why the 70's / 80's are my favourite period; they balance between the clumsiness and oversimplification of the 60's, the griminess of the 90's and the over'realism' and excessive seriousness of the 00's - now.
They're sophisticated, but still fun; they're about character but still heroic... etc...

(This is, of course, a generalisation. Exceptions of all kinds exist.)


'I'll abuse the characters all I want, fans of those characters will still buy the books'. People like these pretty quickly drive fans like myself away.

But, *sigh*, know fans like myself all too well...

- Le Messor
"What's the deal with Manny the manager? If I ask him really nicely do you think he'd let me write a children's book called that?"
~ Buffy

[Alpha Rider]

I think it was a bit of everything. So many useless cross over that ment nothing. (Rise of the Midnight Son, Executioner Song, Infinit I, II, III, or what ever they were called) How many of the Infinite titles did you buy just to see AF?

The prices of the books had got so expencive, I know someone who collected from the early 60's and had stoped by the time the early 90's came by because of cost. He has a good job working at Pitny Bowes and couldn't afford to by all the titles as he did in the past, and this is a gut who has all the titles by Marvel and DC from 1960-1990. He would still collect if the price was right.

Taking the books out of the cornner stores was stupid. The whinning ***** ass "collectors" wanted a direct sales from the shops not the cornner store because it may ruin the vale of the book. These "Collectors" were the ones that really ruin the industry, from the said above to having the paper changed from news print or cold press to a high glossy that we have today.

There were too many titles that were printed back in the 90's Marvel had something like 60 monthly titles. where as in 1983 they only had 18- 22 titles.

Marvel and DC going public in the stock market,ment they had to show a profet to the shareholders.

Marketing divisions in the companies were also ruining the bizz. They destroyed tons of titles. I.E. the 90's Ghost Rider almost didn't happen. First they wanted a 4 part mini, the they didn't know how to market it so they wanted a graphic novel, "No wait, that market is dead." so on and so on. Basiclly they didn't believe in the title and were going to pull the plug on it until Tom DeFalco said "No it's good enough to be it's own series." They gave the writter (Howard Mackie) total control over the book for 2 years, and when re-reading those issuse, it reminds me of Byrne's AF run. Then after 2 years the book was so succsessful that's when marketing got involed and spoiled everthing.

People would still buy the books if the price was right. about 8 or 9 years ago DC did a 99 cent Bat Man issue and it out sold everthing, over 600, 000 copies.

[Le Messor]

How many of the Infinite titles did you buy just to see AF?

(... I'm still getting them...)

The type of "Collectors" you're talking about are called Speculators; and I pretty much agree with all the points in your post. That I know anything about.

- Le Messor
"SAVE A TREE: Eat a beaver"

[Flightpath07]

"SAVE A TREE: Eat a beaver"

Uh...that would be illegal here in Canada.

[EccentricSage]

By 'infinite' titles, do we mean those god-awful infinity crusade/war cross-overs and special issues? I hated those. I remember picking up one because of the Alpha appearance, and the whole book was just a bunch of super powered characters standing around an observation deck scratching their heads, pretty much. Disgraceful.

If it's something that happened later than the mid-90's, then I missed it completely.

Yeah, the 90's marketing madness ruined Marvel for me, too. There were so many good series that were cancelled after long runs for no reason... tons of **** art on expensive glossy paper, and then they followed up by very suddenly going all dark and grim and anti-hero, and everyone switched from costumes to boring motocross leather suits because of the ****ty X-Men movies.

And nowadays their brilliant idea is to see how many places Wolverine can be in at once, e__e You can see why I just gave up completely.


Also, the only comic book shop in town closed down, and I don't have a car. The hobby shop stopped carrying comics because they said it was too much hassle and not profitable. I was getting the impression comic companies were starting to make their bottom line better on the backs of the shops that sell their books. If you put the only businesses that sell your merch out of business, how the hell do you stay profitable?

*edit*

Also, speculators and short-sellers should just be rounded up and culled, in my opinion. Look at what they do to the economy. The things they do are illegal for anyone who's not protected by working for the corrupt investment banks.

[Alpha Rider]

"SAVE A TREE: Eat a beaver"

Uh...that would be illegal here in Canada.

Depends on what kind of beaver, eh.

[Alpha Rider]

After the comic crash of 94/95 2/3rds of comic shops have closed down in America. You've already taken the books out of the cornner store, jacked up the prices, and now all the comic shops and hobby stores are gone.

What comic book shop face is the price of square footage and inventory. When they have such a high inventory that they can't move, it costs them money. DO you keep a good healthy catalog of back issues or do you reducse it down to over the past few years? When I started collecting my AF and GR back issues (to fill in the holes around 88) the back issues were cheep. I got 18 books for under $11. Now because of the high markup in a cuurent book price you are paying at least $5-$6 per back issue. No kid is going to spend that kind of money if he/she wants to get the whole run of a Dare Devil, or New Warriors, or whatever.

Most shops are not going to keep a huge back issuse catolog if they can't move them. In Toronto, there is a shop called the Dragon Lady and they have been around for years and they have a really good selection of back issues but they have these ridiculus sales like 50% off any book under $10 and 30% off books over $10. Marvel and DC are only intrested in the licinceing of there properties because that's where the big money is.

The only real way to save the biz is to reduce the cost of the book, and put them back into cornner stores. I know, I sound like a broken record. If kids can afford the books they'll buy them. From 1970 a book was 20 cents, and 20 years later the price had jumped up to almost $2. This should have been the cap of comic books, no higher than this, but greed got the best of them.

[EccentricSage]

I don't think those sales are ridiculous though. That's a standard practice to move back stock or over stock in pretty much any retail establishment. The only problem is that I got the impression that the shops aren't getting a big enough cut of the profits to begin with, so at the point where they are having huge sales, they're going to just be trying to make back losses. I remember one of the workers at the little shop I used to frequent complaining about it.

If the big comic book companies continue to destroy their own market, the licensing deals will eventually dry up. Nobody is going to care anymore.

I understand why the glossy fancy books exist, but maybe those should be limited edition and cheaper cold press should be sold cheap through corner stores, news stands, and hobby shops again, with reasonable profit margins for the shops, of course. Book stores are perfectly capable of selling comic books, but won't usually right now because the profit margin does not even make it worth the space on their periodical section. Why are magazines of all things still doing better than comic books, when much of the printed news is made obsolete by bloggers, tutorials, and online news? An entertainment industry that focuses on art and fan loyalty seems like it SHOULD do better than magazines, especially since the movies are making super heroes seem more accessible and less silly to the mainstream whom used to view comic book fans as childish outcasts. Comic book characters are beloved pop culture icons nowadays, with big name celebrities clamoring to play them. Why on earth can't comic book companies grow their core fan base anymore? It's just so weird.

[Flightpath07]

If the big comic book companies continue to destroy their own market, the licensing deals will eventually dry up. Nobody is going to care anymore.

Here, here! Or maybe that should be, Hear, Hear!


I understand why the glossy fancy books exist, but maybe those should be limited edition and cheaper cold press should be sold cheap through corner stores, news stands, and hobby shops again, with reasonable profit margins for the shops, of course.

In agreeance with this.


An entertainment industry that focuses on art and fan loyalty seems like it SHOULD do better than magazines, especially since the movies are making super heroes seem more accessible and less silly to the mainstream whom used to view comic book fans as childish outcasts. Comic book characters are beloved pop culture icons nowadays, with big name celebrities clamoring to play them. Why on earth can't comic book companies grow their core fan base anymore? It's just so weird.

I see your "weird", and I raise you a "Pathetic". It's pathetic, it really is.

Basically, they have royally screwed over all the true fans of comic books, in order to reach movie fans. "Robbing Peter to pay Paul", as the saying goes. When the well goes dry in the movies, which one day it will (all things in entertainment are cyclical), who will support these companies in their gross mismanagement of themselves? There will be nobody left.

It's just greed, mixed with stupidity. Making the fast buck over here with our left hand, never mind that it will doom the industry; as long as they get their cut of the profits now (from movies, etc), they don't care.

[Le Messor]

If kids can afford the books they'll buy them.

Assuming they're created in a way that appeals to kids, and that their parents won't burn them as soon as they see the contents, that is.

- Le Messor
"I'd love to, but I promised to help a friend fold road maps."

[Alpha Rider]

I don't think those sales are ridiculous though. That's a standard practice to move back stock or over stock in pretty much any retail establishment. The only problem is that I got the impression that the shops aren't getting a big enough cut of the profits to begin with, so at the point where they are having huge sales, they're going to just be trying to make back losses. I remember one of the workers at the little shop I used to frequent complaining about it.

If the big comic book companies continue to destroy their own market, the licensing deals will eventually dry up. Nobody is going to care anymore.

I understand why the glossy fancy books exist, but maybe those should be limited edition and cheaper cold press should be sold cheap through corner stores, news stands, and hobby shops again, with reasonable profit margins for the shops, of course. Book stores are perfectly capable of selling comic books, but won't usually right now because the profit margin does not even make it worth the space on their periodical section. Why are magazines of all things still doing better than comic books, when much of the printed news is made obsolete by bloggers, tutorials, and online news? An entertainment industry that focuses on art and fan loyalty seems like it SHOULD do better than magazines, especially since the movies are making super heroes seem more accessible and less silly to the mainstream whom used to view comic book fans as childish outcasts. Comic book characters are beloved pop culture icons nowadays, with big name celebrities clamoring to play them. Why on earth can't comic book companies grow their core fan base anymore? It's just so weird.

I ment this in a good way. Ridiculusly good. The thing is this sale dosen't seem to end. I don't go to the Dragon Lady all to often, but when I do this "sale" is still on. In the past they never had sales like this or had trouble moving inventory. I guess it's just a sign of the times.

[Alpha Rider]

That's the other thing. Comic books are a reflection of society, over the past 30 odd some years I've been collecting, I've seen the change from suttle sexuality to almost rated R for what reason? The violence in comics had gone further, and once again for no good reason. Shock value can only go so far. When Image first started to publish they never used the CCA, then Marvel and DC fallowed as well. If the Code was brought back and stream line books for everyone, then you might get somewhere. We all grew up with the same books as the adults were buying back then, what was wrong with the code now? Why did they have to make their own rating system? DC had a good idea with seperating it's Vertigo line from it's mainstream DC line, but for the most part the sex and violence in comics is not nessesary.

[Flightpath07]

With apologies to FP's next post

Accepted, of course!


Assuming they're created in a way that appeals to kids, and that their parents won't burn them as soon as they see the contents, that is.

True! Mind you, I still assume that most parents could care less. But that's another story.


over the past 30 odd some years I've been collecting, I've seen the change from suttle sexuality to almost rated R for what reason? The violence in comics had gone further, and once again for no good reason. Shock value can only go so far.

Agreed. But again, it is a question of who they are trying to sell comics to; adults. Sorry, but there is no strong or long-term future in that.


DC had a good idea with seperating it's Vertigo line from it's mainstream DC line, but for the most part the sex and violence in comics is not nessesary.

Agree, and agree.

by the way, i am one of those strange adults who keeps a close eye on Marvel's "Marvel Adventures" line of kids comics. I have a few of them, and think they are hilarious (in a good way, too)! Anytime i hear that Alpha or Tigra (my second-fave Marvel character, next to Wild Child) are making appearances, I rush to pick them up.

[Alpha Rider]

I'm trying to find some of those Mini Marvels. I want to see if Ghost Rider ever made an apperance in there.

[Le Messor]

Agreed. But again, it is a question of who they are trying to sell comics to; adults.

Actually, added sex and violence appeal more to kids (children or teenagers) who want to think they're reading adult stuff than actual adults.
I'm not making any guesses on whether Marvel or DC are doing it on purpose, either.

- Le Messor
"I'd like to be home, with my monkey, and my dog."
~ Roger Waters

[Alpha Rider]

Marvel and DC had had it in the past, but it least had a purpose. Now it seems that they are fallowing what Image had done back in the 90's. All we need to see now is a big brested woman holding big guns (the ones you shoot with)

[Alpha Rider]

Thinking it over, what the industrty really needs is to stop treating the artist like pre-madonna and over paying them. This is the legacey that Image had left behind. When the 7 left Marvel because they wanted more control over the charaters, but they also wanted more money. To keep the remaining top artist from leaving Marvel and DC started to over pay them, so now we have "Well if I don't get what I want, I'm going over to Image." Don't get me wrong they do a lot of good work and work for their money, but they also make cash on the side with toy design, movie consepts and story board work, as well as animation charater designs. And that's big bucks.

[Flightpath07]

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/20851.html

Link to article saying "Event Fatigue" is upon us; big comic events no longer boosting sales, as sales continue to drop across the board.

[DelBubs]

So to counter that Marvel will be doing a panel on the next thing after 'Fear Itself', 'Shattered Heroes'! What drives Marvel to keep eventing?

[Flightpath07]

So to counter that Marvel will be doing a panel on the next thing after 'Fear Itself', 'Shattered Heroes'! What drives Marvel to keep eventing?

The definition of insanity is 'doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results'.

'Nuff said.

[Le Messor]

What drives Marvel to keep eventing?

Who ₭now$ what ¢ould €v€r ₫rive Marv€£?

- Le Messor
"I'd love to, but I'm going to count the bristles in my toothbrush."

[DelBubs]

Who ₭now$ what ¢ould €v€r ₫rive Marv€£?

- Le Messor
"I'd love to, but I'm going to count the bristles in my toothbrush."

Much akin to milking your herd to the point of killing it.

[Phil]

Who ₭now$ what ¢ould €v€r ₫rive Marv€£?

To be fair, they're just doing their jobs, the same as the heads of any company.
If people didn't like them, then people wouldn't buy them.

[Le Messor]

To be fair

But whyyyyyyy?


they're just doing their jobs, the same as the heads of any company.

True, but the problem here is Executive Meddling - when the heads of the companies start to think their job is that of the laborer on the floor. They may run the company, but that doesn't mean they know how to do every job within it. But they try to.


If people didn't like them, then people wouldn't buy them.

Well, people aren't buying them anymore.
And that's not entirely true; comics are not unlike drugs. You get too much, you get too high. Not enough and you're gonna die. You get addicted, and you get high from reading them, then you think you can fly and walk off the edge of a building and the people think you're an idiot and you never live it down at work and I didn't need that job anyway.
Forget that last part...

I've been realising more and more lately that I'm buying a lot of comics I'm not enjoying. I buy X-Men (which aren't as bad now as they have been, they're just nuthin' special) because of the constant cameoing by Northstar and Jeffries; but the more time goes on, the less I want to keep buying them.
Events are a big part of why. Not the only part, but a big one.

- Le Messor
"I'm going to the Missing Persons Bureau to see if anyone is looking for me."

[Flightpath07]

"I'm going to the Missing Persons Bureau to see if anyone is looking for me."

I'm missing all the people who once thought I was sane...

[EccentricSage]

See, that's why I quit Marvel when they cancelled everything I loved. I'll be trying to get a hold of the new Alpha Flight soon, which I'm happy to do, as it's rare for Marvel to do right by fans anymore, so I need to support this. If I weren't poor I'd buy multiple copies. lol

I know the Temptation to buy a book just because a beloved character is in it, but I learned the hard way from Weapon X that this only encourages the writer's abuse of said character. Certain writers have no respect for fans and should be boycotted by fans for the way they treat the fans and characters.

I would love to pick up the one book where Wildchild beats the **** out of Wolverine (Not that I hate Wolverine, but I'm loosing all ability to relate to are care about his character.), or the one where he tortures Daken (boohoo 'torture is wrong' I feel sorry for Wolvie but Daken deserves anything he gets. Someone should do a time travel story and un-create him.) ... but, I don't want to give money to Marvel for Loeb's **** writing, especially after what he did to so many great feral mutants. Someday if I find it in a bargain bin somewhere, I'll pick it up because at least some of the art was good. Then I'll just be helping some poor ****er who ordered too many copies recover their losses.


If you need a comic book 'fix', there are manga out there with a lot more integrity, because there's no creative team changes. I'm loving Bleach and Dance on the Vampire Bund. Anime is good, too, with stuff like Cowboy BeeBop, Ghost in the Shell, and Tengu Topa Gurren Lagann. (bet you can't guess who my favorite Gurren Lagann character is. *snerk*)


Aaaaalsoooo... I just have to say... I love how you guys think. I swear every time I hop on a thread here I get a goofy grin, or just crack the hell up. Apparently my problem is that I was born in the wrong part of the continent. You guys are totally 'my people'. lol

[Le Messor]

I'm missing all the people who once thought I was sane...

Who are these deluded fools?


See, that's why I quit Marvel when they cancelled everything I loved.

The fairest reason of all.


I know the Temptation to buy a book just because a beloved character is in it, but I learned the hard way from Weapon X that this only encourages the writer's abuse of said character.

Yeah, I agree.
I don't do it, but I agree with it.


I don't want to give money to Marvel for Loeb's **** writing, especially after what he did to so many great feral mutants.

I've always thought he was overrated. I've found his writing average at best - and that includes The Long Hallowe'en. Nothing wrong with it ('cept that feral mutants story you mention), but not worth the 'this guy is a great superstar we should all love!' hype he seems to get.


If you need a comic book 'fix', there are manga out there with a lot more integrity, because there's no creative team changes. I'm loving Bleach and Dance on the Vampire Bund. Anime is good, too, with stuff like Cowboy BeeBop, Ghost in the Shell, and Tengu Topa Gurren Lagann. (bet you can't guess who my favorite Gurren Lagann character is. *snerk*)

Good for you! (That sounded way less condescending in my head.)
Unfortunately, I've never been able to relate to anime. The only true anime I've seen (and I've seen quite a bit, including parts of Cowboy Bebop) and truly enjoyed was Full Metal Alchemist. I don't hate it, either, or protest when somebody threatens to put it on in front of me, but I always feel a bit distanced from it.

(I say 'true anime' because I love LOVE Avatar: The Last Airbender - the cartoon! The Cartoon! - but it's American, and thuswise doesn't count.)


Apparently my problem is that I was born in the wrong part of the continent. You guys are totally 'my people'. lol

Oh.
Now I'm sad. :(

(You know I'm on an entirely different 'continent', right?)

- Le Messor
"I'd love to, but people are blaming me for the Spanish-American War."

[EccentricSage]

lol 'doh. I thought you were one of the Canadians. I guess it's an Alpha Flight fandom thing... our like-minded tendencies... particularly humor.

So... why DO you keep buying bad comic books when the writers abuse characters you like? Masochism? I get masochism, but sometimes you have to take a stand! ;)

And yeah... Wasn't Loeb a writer for 'Heros'? I got the impression that was why he's sooooo special, but to be honest, I thought the dialogue and pacing for Heros was one of it's biggest week points. I loved some of the characters, but in between some great moments, I was just 'meh' and couldn't follow it.

I get how a lot of anime just isn't for everyone. My sister isn't that into anime, ether. But what about the manga? Manga tends to be very different from anime in it's pacing and depth. I don't care for the Bleach anime most of the time, for example, but I adore the manga.

I also liked the Full Metal Alchemist anime. I think there's something about the pacing and set-up of the whole world and story that reminds me of well written western style comic books. Maybe you'll like Gurren Lagann if you check it out... it can be downright over-the-top, but it's highly spirited and has a complex story that spans a great deal of time. There is even an epic villain turned hero, and a good guy who gets killed off and somehow comes back later. If that won't make an Alpha fan feel at home, I don't know what will. XD Another epic anime with a massive plot and spirited characters/story telling is Eureka 7.

Ultimately, there are a lot of popular anime out there like Naruto that don't appeal to me at all, ether. (the Naruto manga is actually very good though!) I think too often Anime are ether cheep and gimmicky or are poorly paced and un-inspired adaptations of manga.

Oh... Also, in most cases, dubbing ruins anime. There are some fantastic exceptions, like Eureka 7, but if you ever check out Gurren Lagann, go with subtitles. The English VA aren't BAD, but they don't understand the style of the anime, so a lot of the dramatic moments or humor won't come across right in the dub, and the original Japanese VA for it are so amazing.

[Flightpath07]

Other than Alpha Flight, the only monies that Marvel is making off me is my newest obsession with Avengers Academy; that comic actually is about characters, which is unusual in Marvel-dom.

Oh, and i am gonna give Wolverine and the X-Men a couple of issues, see how it is. Chances are, it being an X book, it won't be very good, and I'll drop it quite quickly.

DC has me interested in both "Frankenstein: Agent of SHADE" and "Red Hood and the Outlaws". I'm also interested in the steampunk world of "Lady Mechanika" from Aspen Press, and Image's "Hack/Slash" series.

Trying to really limit what i spend my hard-earned money on. If it's not awesome, I'll skip it.

[Phil]

True, but the problem here is Executive Meddling - when the heads of the companies start to think their job is that of the laborer on the floor. They may run the company, but that doesn't mean they know how to do every job within it. But they try to.
Again, that's not a fault exclusive to Marvel. It's a common business fault.


Well, people aren't buying them anymore.
Yet Fear Itself #4 sold 93,435 compared to AF #2's 26,862.
The actual comic market has shrunk for varying factors, but the events are still the only thing selling near decent numbers.


I've been realising more and more lately that I'm buying a lot of comics I'm not enjoying.
If you don't mind me asking; Why?
As soon as something gets too awful for me to read I drop it as quick as I can. My money doesn't stretch far enough to pay $4 for something I loathe.

[Phil]

I'm also interested in the steampunk world of "Lady Mechanika" from Aspen Press
If you do, let me know what you think.
I was really intrigued by the concept and the art, but in reading it... I didn't like it at all.

[Flightpath07]

Yet Fear Itself #4 sold 93,435 compared to AF #2's 26,862.
The actual comic market has shrunk for varying factors, but the events are still the only thing selling near decent numbers.

Here's a thought. The consumers would have more money in their pockets if they weren't force-fed the yearly Marvel Event. Thus, if good comics with good character development and thougthful stories (a la Alpha Flight Volume 4) can be found out there, the consumer might spend that money on these comics.

To me, its a gimmick. They encourage you to buy an Event with its tie-ins to get your money (even though lots of people will have to drop another title to get the Event); instead, they should work harder at putting out good products in the titles they already produce, so that the consumer will WANT to purchase these comics.

As we have already seen with AF, marketing is everything. Why not market other titles the same way they do their events? And why not demand the very best from their writers, colourists, and artists?

I'm not saying everything they put out is crap...but I am saying that the vast majority of what they put out, doesn;t sell well, because it doesn't deserve to. People know an inferior product when they see it.

[Flightpath07]

If you do, let me know what you think.
I was really intrigued by the concept and the art, but in reading it... I didn't like it at all.


I've read issues 0 and 1 so far, and quite enjoyed it!

[Phil]

Here's a thought. The consumers would have more money in their pockets if they weren't force-fed the yearly Marvel Event. Thus, if good comics with good character development and thougthful stories (a la Alpha Flight Volume 4) can be found out there, the consumer might spend that money on these comics.
But who's to say that an event comic isn't a good comic?
A lot of people clearly like event comics.


To me, its a gimmick.As is toys with cereals, cd's with magazines, etc. etc.
Marvel aren't to blame for the invention of sales gimmicks.


They encourage you to buy an Event with its tie-ins to get your moneyI'm not talking about the tie-ins though. I'm talking pure numbers for the main mini-series.


they should work harder at putting out good products in the titles they already produce, so that the consumer will WANT to purchase these comics.If they had done that then the first comic ever produced would be the only comic ever produced and we'd never have had AF.
Why put out an AF comic when they can just keep Byrne on X-Men?
Why create the X-Men when you can write the best possible stories for FF?


As we have already seen with AF, marketing is everything. Why not market other titles the same way they do their events?Small spikes in otherwise dull financial quarters.
The event sales will fianance an attempt at a smaller title in the following quarter.


And why not demand the very best from their writers, colourists, and artists?That should be the basis of every decision, I agree.


I'm not saying everything they put out is crap...but I am saying that the vast majority of what they put out, doesn;t sell well, because it doesn't deserve to. People know an inferior product when they see it.Hard to say... it's more a case of the change in the readership.
The majority of people who read buy comics now, picked them up as a kid.
Comics is a very very strange media in that it's legacy and nostalgia continues while it's characters stay constant/stagnant.
The majority of cartoon/tv shows I watched as a child no longer exist. They haven't carried on for 70 years. But would I still sit down cross-legged in front of my TV every saturday morning and watch them as a 30 year old if they did?
Comics are being written by and for the generation of adults that read them as kids.
That combined with the financial status of the world has hiked the prices up massively, from wages for the people creating them, to print costs, to distribution; all of which takes it's toll on the cover price for us the consumer. (Also, Event/Shock comics generate free advertising) Which we have to offset against our adult lives, and buy less.
Even if the greatest comic in the world existed for only $2.99 if it came down to paying my rent/feeding my family or getting the comic, I'd have to do the latter. And that rules out the inferior product.


I do agree with you, and pretty much everyone else within this thread, but it's not Marvel's sole fault. They're not evil or against the readers etc... (Not saying any of you have said that, either btw) We just need to think from their way occasionally.
It's a very tricky subject with no immediate solution.

[Le Messor]

lol 'doh. I thought you were one of the Canadians. I guess it's an Alpha Flight fandom thing... our like-minded tendencies... particularly humor.

People keep thinking that.
I live in Oz.

1377?

No, not that OZ!

1378?

No, not that one, either! What is wrong with you?

1379?
Yeah, that one!


And yeah... Wasn't Loeb a writer for 'Heroes'? I got the impression that was why he's sooooo special, but to be honest, I thought the dialogue and pacing for Heroes was one of it's biggest week points.

He worked on Heroes, but I thought he was treated special before that.


But what about the manga? Manga tends to be very different from anime in it's pacing and depth.

It's more a cultural issue for me; I've found most Anime / Manga I've experienced inaccessible. That's too strong a word, but I don't know a weaker one. Less-than-accessible?


If they had done that then the first comic ever produced would be the only comic ever produced and we'd never have had AF.
Why put out an AF comic when they can just keep Byrne on X-Men?
Why create the X-Men when you can write the best possible stories for FF?

The second? Because just one series couldn't sustain a company.
The first? Because a lot of readers of X-Men asked for it.
The question I ask that prompted your answer (which, I know, wasn't clear in my post) is 'Why create three X-Men titles and I don't know how many general X titles when Uncanny, the flagship, isn't being done to the best of your ability, and hasn't had the magic since the 200s or so?'

By all means, try new titles - but don't print 52 per month. And if you must print 52 a month, try to make them 52 different ones, 'kay? Not 52 comics about four characters / teams.


Again, that's not a fault exclusive to Marvel. It's a common business fault.

I guess my 'who knows what drives Marvel' post is to blame, but I don't - and never have - exclusively blamed Marvel.
I think there's a problem in the industry overall.


But who's to say that an event comic isn't a good comic?
A lot of people clearly like event comics.

This is one of those problems; but you're fully right; an event comic can be good.
The problem isn't the comic itself; it's when you're reading along, trying to have fun in your own series, but you can only get two or three issues before being tripped up by the latest event. And if you don't read the event, you don't know why your chirpy, happy character is suddenly wearing black leather with spikes - on the inside. (When I started that sentence it wasn't a real example...)
And you're expected to not only read the main event, four-to-twelve issue mini, you're expected to read the prologues, the side-books, the front lines, the minis about the series for each and every comic the company is producing, etc...

And when companies do one per year, regardless of quality, it gets into event fatigue.


The majority of people who read buy comics now, picked them up as a kid.

Yep. And, per an earlier post of mine, so many of the comics now wouldn't appeal to kids - if their parents were irresponsible enough to let them read them. When I'm reading 52 and have to keep checking I didn't pick up A Nightmare On Elm Street by mistake...
Or somehow got a porno in my comics collection...

Comics take themselves far too seriously these days - and I'm just not seeing comics that appeal to me anymore. They seem to think that comics have to be adult-oriented to be read by adults, instead of aimed at kids but readable by adults. Y'know, like the ones that I got me into the hobby in the first place?

And yes, like the stereotyped fanboy, I whinge a lot about comics back in my day. But I can't help noticing that comics from the period I advocate - 70s and 80s - sold far better than comics today.



I've been realising more and more lately that I'm buying a lot of comics I'm not enjoying.If you don't mind me asking; Why? As soon as something gets too awful for me to read I drop it as quick as I can. My money doesn't stretch far enough to pay $4 for something I loathe.

So... why DO you keep buying bad comic books when the writers abuse characters you like? Masochism? I get masochism, but sometimes you have to take a stand! ;)

I blame you guys.

Hey, how does that work?

It doesn't, it just goes to prove how great I am!
1380

Okay, serious answer?
This is why I've been thinking so hard about it lately. I'm seriously considering dropping most of my titles.
Caveat: I never said I loathe any of them. It's just lost the magic for me, and comics I used to love now leave me flat.
Reasons:
1. Misguided loyalty.
I've got, um, 'addicted' to Alpha Flight, and feel the need to collect every appearance they have, including the current run of X-Men. I keep reading the Appearances threads and thinking 'I'd have that issue if I hadn't dropped X-Men in the 90s!'! When I think about dropping the X, I remember that and go 'no, not again!'
I'm seriously considering dropping X-Men with the reboot, though.
2. No back issues.
I don't want to ditch comics altogether, but as mentioned above, there's nothing much being produced that appeals to me. Could they at least send their colourists outside on a sunny day once in a while?
No?
'bye, then.
The more comics of today I read, the more 70s and 80s comics I want to read - but the two stores in Canberra both have mostly-naughties collections. The nearest place I can buy 70s-80s (that I know of) is in Sydney, 3 hours away. And being in that shop is like being served at Black Books.

It's one reason I like the Marvel Premiere Classics so much; they're reprinting a lot of comics from 'my' era, so I'm getting the good stuff. And sometimes the bad. But mostly the good.

Oh, there are a couple of good things nowadays; Buffy is good when it's not preaching 'sex über alles'. I'm really enjoying Batgirl and Superboy, and hope to keep reading them for a long ti-

Oh.

- Le Messor
"Sometimes you have to march in and demand your rights! Even if you don't know what your rights are, or who it is you're talking to. And, on the way out, slam the door."
~ Jack Handey

[Flightpath07]

Hands up, everyone who felt the need to Google the word "whinge".

Anybody? Anybody?

Bueller? Bueller?

No, just me?

[Le Messor]

It's a perfectly cromulent word!

(And, wow! was that a long post!)

[Flightpath07]

And, speaking of DC...

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/08/25/dan-didio-dc-comics-relaunch/

[Flightpath07]

DC's explanation of why they are doing what they are doing. Also says a lot about what they beleive the fate of comic book stores to be.

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2011/08/22/dc-comics-exclusive-covers-batman-superman-revamped-heroes-and-digital-will-save-the-day/#/0

[Jason Eberly]

And on a side note how many "event" series do we need in a year anyway?

DIGGER

Events happen so often now they are no longer events. A title actually getting to tell its own stories independent of a crossover for over six months? THAT'S an event.

[Jason Eberly]

Wow, lots of well thought out points and discussion going on here (who woulda thunk it? I kid, I kid...)

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents (not sure what the exchange rate is for you Canadians and Australians in the bunch...

For what I think (in my "pull some ideas out of my hat" way) the industry could do to bolster decreasing sales.

1. Diversify pricing and modality. Many titles (like AF) I would buy at the time of release for say, $2.99. Other titles that I am not enjoying as much or wish to try out I would buy for perhaps $1.99 if they were re-released a few months later with a cheaper paper stock or somesuch. Same idea for digital copies. However, day and date releases should be no more than 2/3 of print price and after 8 weeks should be no more than .99.

2. Have every title stick to a regular schedule. As a kid, I could tell you what week every title that I collected came out in, and it really helped me stay interested in the medium. "Hey, it's 3rd week...Avengers comes out! Cool!" Now I almost have no idea what comes out at any given time because schedules are so erratic. I don't care if it's monthly, bi-monthly, bi-weekly, every six weeks or once a quarter...just find a schedule and stick to it! Which leads into...

3. Hold creators accountable for lateness. I understand that creators are paid more these days than they did in days past, and that is good. A living wage is good. What isn't good is creators who are paid more today for their work then...don't work. Just like in construction, if you don't finish a job by "X" date, then you start getting penalized the later the job is done.

4. Aim for kids, but don't talk down to them. Like Mik (may I call you that? I could be presuming too much, Mister Le Messor) said, when I started reading in January '83 at age 9, I had no problem understanding the complex plots and ongoing themes...or I didn't care because they were fun and exciting! And today, almost 30 years later, those stories are still great, perhaps not for exactly the same reasons. I now get more subtexts and nuances that I missed before. You can aim a concept at kids and still make it accessible to adults in today's world...Harry Potter has proven that.

5. Put 'em where the kids are! I think this one is pretty universally agreed upon. While comic shops are nice, people don't happen to just wander into them looking for comics. I think most people picked them up initially like adults pick up tabloids and magazines...as impulse items at grocery and convenience stores. But that's not the only place. If I were to own a local comic shop, I would do my damndest to make a deal with any local theatres showing these superhero movies to have a rack of comics in the lobbies of the theatres! Or the big 2 could do a direct contract with the theatres to sell their comics. (For those of you with kids...how many times after going to a store after seeing a superhero movie has your child seen some kind of product with that superhero on it and bug you incessantly to buy it and NOT RIGHT NOW TOMMY I AM TRYING TO GET DINNER FOR YOU AND YOUR SISTER BECAUSE YOUR MOTHER HAS TO WORK LATE TONIGHT FINE WE'LL GET IT JUST BEHAVE NOW!!) Wow...not too sure where that came from since I don't even have kids...

6. Sprinkle some shredded cheese on the croissant dough, place the hot dog in the middle and roll the dog up. Bake at 375 degrees for 13 minutes or until golden brown....dang ADD...

6.2 Trim selection. Too many titles with too few characters dilutes both the talent pool and increases supply cost. Trim the number of titles your company produces in order to maximize a smaller, (hopefully) better talent pool while cutting printing costs.

Again, there is no scientific basis for any of these things (except for the weiner wrap recipe...mmm mmm), and I have more, but this will do for now.

~Jason

[Flightpath07]

6.2 Trim selection. Too many titles with too few characters dilutes both the talent pool and increases supply cost. Trim the number of titles your company produces in order to maximize a smaller, (hopefully) better talent pool while cutting printing costs.

Marvel execs, mulling this one over..."Hm...he's got a point there. Let's team Wolverine up with Spidey and Deadpool in a few more titles, and then trim off the other stuff. Let's start by axing this 'Alpha Flight' thing, whatever that is..."


NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Le Messor]

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents (not sure what the exchange rate is for you Canadians and Australians in the bunch...

Complicated... It'd be worth less than an Australian cent at the moment, but we don't have anything smaller than a five cent piece. (We don't call them 'nickels'.)


4. Aim for kids, but don't talk down to them. Like Mik (may I call you that? I could be presuming too much, Mister Le Messor)

I really don't mind. Actually, you may be the first person who's asked, and not just jumped into it - which I'm also fine with.


You can aim a concept at kids and still make it accessible to adults in today's world...Harry Potter has proven that.

Many things have; Star Wars, E.T., Doctor Who (um, original stuff, I mean)...


Again, there is no scientific basis for any of these things (except for the weiner wrap recipe...mmm mmm),

I don't think I can get croissant dough here. D'oh!
... hmm... I do have a recipe for it, though...

- Le Mik
"The longer I live the more I see I am never wrong about anything, and that all the pains I have so humbly taken to verify my notions have only wasted my time."
~ George Bernard Shaw