I remember Marvel when it was......

[DaVeO]

I remember Marvel when it was the House of Ideas. When they were considered the rebel to DC/Warner's establishment. I remember when Uncanny X-Men and Avengers were my first two titles I ever put on a pull 'n hold file at a comic shop in Scarborough, ON. Then came Alpha Flight, Transformers, G.I.Joe, Micronauts, New Mutants, West Coast Avengers, the list goes on and on. Here was a company that showed us the most amazing stories taking place were in "our" world.
I remember when an event occurred like Secret Wars or the Mutant Massacre or Avengers Under Siege it was big because the story was exciting. Not because of 101 tie-ins or that it promised to change the face of the universe year-after-year-after-year.

I remember when Marvel had integrity, spirit, identity and took risks. Since the early nineties I've seen all of this slip away little by little from my once fave comic publisher. More and more it was about the buck, the fans were only consumers and no longer had a face. 20k fans reading a comic is apparently not enough to appease their shareholders or the House of Mouse? that's too bad.
No longer the House of Ideas it's more of the House of Cloned Franchises. Where is my Alpha Flight? My Atlas? My Captain Britain? No, they aren't X-men, Avengers or Hulks. I'm sorry if they don't rack in as much as those books. Is it really fair to expect them to?

I remember when Marvel gave me a diverse line-up of comics to choose from.

But I'm starting to forget.

[EccentricSage]

I agree with all of the above and couldn't say it better.

Not only that, but they are so formulaic now that any character that doesn't fit a small set of popular super hero molds are cannon fodder that writers can ignore continuity of, kill off, or change completely on a whim without any editorial efforts to keep the MU consistent, much less to protect the diversity and integrity of past writers and artist's creations. It's pathetic.

Even if I see something I'm excited about, my first instinct is suspicion. If a book picks up a character I like they are usually unrecognizable, out of character, abused the whole story through, or killed off for cheap 'shock' value... (I'm not just talking about Wildchild, but seriously, that guy couldn't catch a break! He got all of the above in that order!) I mean really, does it actually shock anyone anymore when Marvel slaughters any character who's not on their A list? Pft.

I shouldn't have let myself indulge in some glimmer of hope when Alpha Flight was properly re-formed.

[Phil]

The problem is that we're all adults now.

We started reading comics as children/teenagers and have continued to do so.
That means that the comics industry is now aimed at the adults who have continued to read, rather than the children that once read.
It's written, drawn, edited by the adults who read comics as children.

The only way to get back to that childhood innocence is for adults to stop reading comics.
For children who don't care about production values to read bright, happy, simple comics.

It's become a cutthroat adult business and that can't be blamed on Marvel.
Every major publisher is in a similar boat.

Basic wages have increased, production & distribution costs have soared, general inflation has set in.
A single comic will have costs for Writer(s), Penciller, Inker, Colorist, Letterer, Assistant Editor, Editor, Printer, Distributor, Store plus tax.
That's a massive cost to spread over one 22 page monthly item.
And money has to be available in order to finance issue production before the issue even hits store shelves, yet alone before the company receives money back, yet alone before the creators get paid.

And to touch on digital comics; that's not going to fix a whole lot, at least not yet.
Yes they'll cut out the printing and distribution costs (the store costs will equate roughly to digital store costs), but the price still won't work.
The reason iTunes works so well is that it's cheaper than buying a cd, and it's quicker & easier than an illegal download.
The ebook market is almost at a similar state.
Digital comics are nowhere near at the same point; simply because it's not economical to release a comic in digital form on the same day for a third of the price as print comic; simply because of the amount of people involved in making the comic that need paying, as outlined above.

And yes, the state we're in is due to the big speculator crash of the 90's which we look deemed to repeat again, quite soon by the way the industry is going.

I genuinely fear for the future of comics.

[Flightpath07]

I shouldn't have let myself indulge in some glimmer of hope when Alpha Flight was properly re-formed.

I was a cautious fan. Excited, but waiting for the other shoe to drop.

When it dropped, it was a cloven hoof that was beneath the shoe, in my opinion.

We didn't just get our favourite comic cancelled, again. We got outright lied to. Again.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, you must be Marvel.

[DaVeO]

I understand business is business, but it's how it is conducted that rubs me raw lately with Marvel. Not to mention how they are treating their creators. "Oh, you have an ongoing now so make plans, we're really behind you this time...honest!"

2 months later...

"Guess what! Those plans you were making? I'm hope they don't include using Alpha Flight. Yeah, we know we said ongoing but that was just so we could get in Canada's good graces, they have polar bears y'know!"

"DIE MARVEL EXECUTIVE SCUM!" ~Marrina's response to the cancellation of Alpha Flight.

I jest of course but you get my meaning. I don't dig it when a company lies to me. If they weren't going to get behind the series and at least give twenty-five issues or so then the announcement should never have been made for an ongoing. It was cruel, and the fact no one from Marvel addressed this, we had to read about it from the solicits, shows just how much they "care" about the fans. Does anyone honestly believe that Disney/Marvel could not afford to give AF more issues so when Marvel cancelled it they wouldn't look like such douche bags? Or Heaven Forbid it had the chance to gain more readers?

Ok, this is turning into a rant and it wasn't supposed to be. I guess what I'm saying is the Marvel I cared about is 90% gone. DC and indies still have the variety I look for in comics and so far I haven't been burned (or burned repeatedly) by following them.

[Alpha Rider]

The problom of comic books is that it has too much competition with other stuff. When Marvel went public back in '88 I had a feeling that my favoret company just sold their soul to the Devil himself. The books cost too much. The artest and writters get paid too much. Countless of stupid cross overs and marketing ploys. Catiering to the "collectors" have all brought the companies down. Marvel and DC are not indipentently owned any more they have to show a proffet to their sharholders.

Back in the old days they would try and fix the book before giving it the axe. They only had about 20 titles back then, but they were damn good. Now they have 50 title and most of it is garbage. Now new ideas. The tallent pool is too watered down.

[Phil]

If they weren't going to get behind the series and at least give twenty-five issues or so then the announcement should never have been made for an ongoing.
That, I totally agree with.


Does anyone honestly believe that Disney/Marvel could not afford to give AF more issues so when Marvel cancelled it they wouldn't look like such douche bags?I'm with Marvel on that one, I'm afraid; the book was haemorrhaging readers.


Or Heaven Forbid it had the chance to gain more readers? Extremely unlikely in this day and age.


Ok, this is turning into a rant and it wasn't supposed to be. I guess what I'm saying is the Marvel I cared about is 90% gone. DC and indies still have the variety I look for in comics and so far I haven't been burned (or burned repeatedly) by following them.Feel free to rant, seriously.

[EccentricSage]

The problom of comic books is that it has too much competition with other stuff. When Marvel went public back in '88 I had a feeling that my favoret company just sold their soul to the Devil himself. The books cost too much. The artest and writters get paid too much. Countless of stupid cross overs and marketing ploys. Catiering to the "collectors" have all brought the companies down. Marvel and DC are not indipentently owned any more they have to show a proffet to their sharholders.

Back in the old days they would try and fix the book before giving it the axe. They only had about 20 titles back then, but they were damn good. Now they have 50 title and most of it is garbage. Now new ideas. The tallent pool is too watered down.

This. A thousand times this.

Comics were so good well into the 80's. My god, X-Factor in the 80's was amazing. The books still had heart back then. Yeah, the creators and their core fan base had matured, but they still remembered why they were in it! So we saw stories that dealt with serious problems people face in the real world, but without all this hopelessness and gore that comic books seem to be about now. I don't think the problem is that comics have grown too mature. I think the problem is that comics have grown too cynical and base. And being overly base to shocks people is pretty much the opposite of maturity, IMHO.

I guess there is no hope now that comics are at the mercy of speculators. As with most problems in the industry, the ****ing stock market is at the heart of the problem. Greed and raw numbers are what's in control now.


"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, you must be Marvel."
Flightpath, I just might quote you for my new sig, if you don't use it yourself. ;)

[Flightpath07]

Flightpath, I just might quote you for my new sig, if you don't use it yourself.

Welcome to it, ES - you might just be my new consumer demographic, after all! lol.

[Le Messor]

Comics were so good well into the 80's. My god, X-Factor in the 80's was amazing. The books still had heart back then. Yeah, the creators and their core fan base had matured, but they still remembered why they were in it! So we saw stories that dealt with serious problems people face in the real world, but without all this hopelessness and gore that comic books seem to be about now. I don't think the problem is that comics have grown too mature. I think the problem is that comics have grown too cynical and base. And being overly base to shocks people is pretty much the opposite of maturity, IMHO.


This. A thousand times this.
(Right back atcha!)

I remember the days of good vs. evil, rather than evil vs. slightly less evil; or good vs. uh, something?

- LM

[Phil]

But is that because the days of good vs evil were when you were younger and had read less comics, so storylines were more black & white than grey and more original?

Just playing devil's advocate for a second.

[EccentricSage]

Personally I like there being shades of gray and more grown up issues dealt with in comics... There was a lot of that in the late 80's and early 90's. I just think too often since the mass cancellations in the late 90s, writers are resorting to exploiting shock value and baser human desires to up sales instead of good storytelling. Mind you, I've backed away from Marvel with my hands up since Weapon X, but from what I've looked up about Loeb's **** Wolverine story and other goings on in the main MU, the glorified sneering villain trend and 'lets abuse the good guys because that's edgy' trend is still going strong. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jason Eberly]

But is that because the days of good vs evil were when you were younger and had read less comics, so storylines were more black & white than grey and more original?

Just playing devil's advocate for a second.

I would say no, from my personal experience. I am constantly reading my comics (going through Thor at the moment), and very often it is the same. The comics prior to roughly the early-mid 90's have a very different feel in tone than those afterward. Those pre-Image era comics truly feel "all ages". I know today "all ages" is an adage for "kiddie book", but then it seemed that it was an adage for "kids can enjoy it, but so can adults". Sure, I may get a reference or a joke now that flew over my head in 1983, but I still get that same sense of not being a demographic, but a fan.

I got the feeling more of "we want to earn your business" from comics (Marvel, especially), than "we expect your business" feeling I get today.

Maybe it's time for an "Occupy Marvel" movement?

"We are the 10% of your fan base that is left!!"

[batman_von_gein]

i remember when marvel was better then dc. batman and superman was cool but the xmen, xforce, fantastic four, spiderman, and the rest of marvel in the 80's were awesome. it just seems like marvel has given up on new ideas. they like to combine people into new teams but it seems like they have to have spiderman, wolverine, or the xmen name in it for people to buy. i like new and original things and thats why i attached to alpha flight so quickly. i dont want a comic called the new avengers when all you really did was put popular people on the team. new avengers to me would be capt america and maybe iron man with an entirely new team of younger heroes. comics are just like the movie industry. instead of new ideas they remake classics. new comics might have a shot to make it if there wasn't 20 xmen and 15 spiderman spin offs.

[Flightpath07]

FlightPath07 Don't you feel all important now?

I'd prefer Alpha Flight, but I'll take that, sure! lol

[Flightpath07]

new avengers to me would be capt america and maybe iron man with an entirely new team of younger heroes.

Sounds like we should have called Volume 3, the all new, all different Alpha Flight! Oh wait, we DID...Sas and a bunch of younger new heroes...hm...


new comics might have a shot to make it if there wasn't 20 xmen and 15 spiderman spin offs.

and that is what happens when your comics only get good sales if they have a movie franchise to stir interest. has Marvel never realized that without those movies stirring that interest, they would have (possibly) gone under by now?! this = incompetence and bad business sense.

DC figured it out. they rebooted EVERYTHING, now they have a chance to do it the fans' way and see if that sells. or, they might piss off the fans more, and flop. either way, they tried, because at least they knew they could not sustain on the way things were going!

[Le Messor]

But is that because the days of good vs evil were when you were younger and had read less comics, so storylines were more black & white than grey and more original?

Just playing devil's advocate for a second.

Isn't this, like, a fifth for you?
You're always defending Marvel. And, hey, somebody should. We can't all act bitter and twisted, more machine now than man, and the galaxy shall be mine!

*cough*
Sorry.
Got carried away.

Anyway, my early comics were 80s, I'd say; when storylines did start getting more sophisticated and greyer - but the characters didn't.
Oh, they had depth, the good guys had flaws, the bad guys had positives; but you could still tell the difference. And they weren't switching sides every five minutes, like it didn't matter which side they wer-- coughHalJordanCainMarkoEddieBrockJasonToddcogh* --e on.

- Le Messor
"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith."
~ Albert Einstein

[Phil]

I'm not defending Marvel per se.

I agree with what they've done to an extent, I understand the business reasons and I personally would rather see a top quality done-in-one finished maxi-series storyline than have them pull the rug out unexpected and have plotlines dangling, or deteriorating quality as the series goes on for one reason or another.

HOWEVER, I think the way they've done it is disgusting.

But then again I think most big businesses and corporations are disgusting.

[Le Messor]

I hope I haven't put you on the defensive - we seem to have a reputation as a polite, nice forum and you seem to be struggling right now to get us to keep that rep. I admire that, I really do.

Somebody needs to keep us under control and tone it back, especially now with so many of us feeling bitter and resentful. I thank you for doing that.

- Le Messor
"If I was at full Slayer power, I'd be punning right about now."
~ Buffy

[Phil]

I just don't want my posts to seem like I'm working for Marvel or that I don't share everyone's pain and disappointment of no more AF.

[Flightpath07]

I'm working for Marvel

See! I KNEW it!

lol.

Nah, I think we all get you, Phil, and understand where you are coming from.


so many of us feeling bitter and resentful

Count me out. Mildly annoyed, and head-shakingly disgusted, but quite calm, really. The problem is, i cannot say, "I don't beleive it!" because, really, i DO. Therein lies the problem, for me. I believe in the product (Alpha Flight), just not the competency of the head company to handle it (or much of anything else!) anymore.

And that is NO slight to ANY of the artistic talents who have been assigned to the Alpha Flight franchise at any time in its history. This is all about the suits at Marvel, for me. The decision they made, at this point, is re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic; they got the word that they had hit the iceberg, when the ship was already halfway underwater, and they aren't even building better boats or training better captains or anything useful - just trying to save a couple of bucks, and go on "business as usual"...

[swh_comicguy]

That, I totally agree with.

I'm with Marvel on that one, I'm afraid; the book was haemorrhaging readers.

Extremely unlikely in this day and age.

Feel free to rant, seriously.

-7.4% (#2 to #3) and -6.5% (#3 to #4) is not hemorrhaging. All new titles go through this decline. Generally it is double digits until it stabilizes. Unfortunately since Marvel double shipped on #1 we don't really know the decrease from #1 to #2.

Wait until the numbers come out for DC's #2 this month. There will be several double digit decreases. They're however backing all of their new 52 titles for at least 4-6 months. Obviously the books that are not meeting expectations will be cancelled or retooled.

I guess that's what we're all disappointed and upset with. Marvel comes to Canada's largest Comic Expo expounding the success of the limited series and announcing that it has been optioned as an ongoing. Two months and issues later, they quietly without explanation cancel the ongoing.

We all would have been fine with the limited series. We were all wishing for more, but would have been happy waiting for the next series in a year or two. That hope is even gone now.

I really wish that the industry would move to a season based model, like television. Twelve issues, then move on to the next big idea, creative team, etc. Commit to telling a good quality story with production value, then if the audience likes it continue with another season. If not move on. Sure there are cancelled shows, but for the most part the model works. Pilots could be your one shots or minis. Marvel relaunches titles wildly anyway.

[Jason Eberly]

Wait until the numbers come out for DC's #2 this month. There will be several double digit decreases. They're however backing all of their new 52 titles for at least 4-6 months. Obviously the books that are not meeting expectations will be cancelled or retooled.



I have two potential remarks to this. Pick your favorite...

1) Meanwhile, Alpha fans were just plain tooled by Marvel.

-OR-

2) Meanwhile, Marvel is just being run by tools.

And to top it off, the tab to my can of soda just broke when I tried to open it!

[varo]

i prefer #2.

also, i am very curious to see what the dropoff between 4 and 5 are, or if it evened out. if it did, it means marvel execs are #2 of the option above. i always thought the cancel line was around 20k.

also, i wonder if the fact that marvel is cutting costs and the fact that pak and fvl are both being paid for this title was a factor.

[Flightpath07]

I have two potential remarks to this. Pick your favorite...

1) Meanwhile, Alpha fans were just plain tooled by Marvel.

-OR-

2) Meanwhile, Marvel is just being run by tools.

And to top it off, the tab to my can of soda just broke when I tried to open it!

I vote for Number Two! (Number Three made no sense ot me at all)

[Jason Eberly]

I vote for Number Two! (Number Three made no sense ot me at all)
There is no number 3!

Basically it is just one of those days where right after you put on a white shirt, you drip toothpaste onto it while brushing your teeth.

Or, for some reason, my internet speed is so slow today I could probably hand deliver these posts to everyone faster.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I agree, Marvel is #2...uh...I mean I choose #2. Heh.

Dana

[EccentricSage]

DC figured it out. they rebooted EVERYTHING, now they have a chance to do it the fans' way and see if that sells. or, they might piss off the fans more, and flop. either way, they tried, because at least they knew they could not sustain on the way things were going!

If you ask me, where Marvel went wrong was in not staying true to the integrity of the characters' back stories and the main MU's history. What made me swear off Marvel wasn't the mass cancellations, the new books, or even dissatisfaction with the fates of some characters... it was the callous treatment of the characters, the complete lack of editorial control over the story writers wanted to write, and the complete lack of back-story research on the part of the writers that really pissed me off beyond anything they'd ****ed up prior.

If some big name writer wants to come in and retcon the entire history of pretty much all feral mutants, especially two of Marvel's most famous rivals of all time, and intrinsically change the fabric of the Marvel Universe, give the arrogant ass an alternate universe title to tell his silly wolf-people story in! If some jackass wants to start a book called Weapon X that isn't even about Weapon X, but rather a Nazi-style death camp for mutants, tell him no! If he wants to completely ignore the fact that one of the characters was happily married and NOT EVIL, tell him HELL NO, not without a good story to explain WHY that character is on the team! And if the excuse is mind control on a guy who has resisted mind control in a past story line, fire the writer outright for being a complete idiot who's plot is full of holes! Don't even get me started on how little sense Aurora's lobotomy made.

The editors should keep track of loose ends that occur when a book gets cancelled and try to pass those on to writers on other books who pick the characters up. I, as a fan of a character, am not going to keep following that character if that character a) becomes unrecognizable or b) has a self-contradicting history full of plot holes because some writers along the way didn't do their research. For example, I looked up Wolfsbain and Wolfsbain ATE Rev. Craig... WHAT THE #&^%*^%&^$#@#?!!! And she only hated her wolf form early on! She soon embraced her abilities once she was rescued and trained! What's this BS about her being traumatized by her wolf form when regaining her powers, and being overcome by a feral impulse. Only time I ever remember her having THAT problem was when she was ****ed with by the Genotians back in X-Factor! Why do editors let writers go so far out of character with such well established characters?

Don't get me started on Marrow's reasons for joining Weapon X ether. OMG, the rage that one inspires.


So yeah... I WAS generally against a reboot. But the MU is getting so mucked up that I can't really see any way to undo the damage done by all the gimmicky writers who stroke their own egos by trying to rack up body count, and prefer shock value over believable character development. Every time I look up what's been going on with a character I like, I just become more convinced there's no point in caring anymore. ****, probably just as well they killed off poor Kyle. Just wish it had been a cooler death. It's almost better to see these B and C list characters die than get their integrity undermined with every new writer that picks them up.

Well, now I'm depressed. And unlike in other fandoms, with Marvel I don't even have the huge reserves of decent fanfiction to drown my sorrows in. *sigh*

Hmmm... though you know, if they re-booted and started over at the beginning, then they'd probably just do an even lamer dumbed-down version of the history of the MU based off the movie and cartoon franchises, cutting out all b and c list characters to focus on the big A listers and adding their own lame ass creation like Daken or whatever Mr evil fanservice guy's name is. "Dark Wolverine".

They should just reboot it where it left off in the early-mid 90's right before the mass cancellations. There were great stories developing in a lot of the series, just the art was increasingly **** and the books cost too much at that time. That's fixable.

[Jason Eberly]

I personally am against Marvel doing a reboot.

The reason being is that you throw out a lot of good along with the bad. And even nowadays, there are good stories out there to go along with the blech.

The wonderful part about comics is that anything broken can be fixed, any plot holes or inconsistencies explained (or just ignored to fade away into oblivion). Fred and Greg have proved that with this current AF. These characters were way mucked up prior to the current run, almost recognizable in some cases. Yet here we are, with the characters feeling more like themselves than we've seen in over a decade.

Marvel used to have an official "fact checker" named Peter Sanderson (he helped write some of the Deluxe Marvel Universe Handbooks) whose job was to make sure things lined up story wise in the MU. Want to know the status of The Leader for a story you want to write? You went to him. I know Marvel is slimming its workforce so doing this again would probably never happen, but it is obvious that not having someone like this in their stable has hurt the storytelling.

Also, there are some writers who so a good job of fixing those characters. Granted, you may not like the results, but you usually end up with a character that makes more sense. Kurt Busiek is good at this, as is Geoff Johns.

For instance, for almost two decades, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch's origins constantly changed and contradicted itself, until a couple different writers finally not only gave a definite origin, but even made all those conflicting accounts fit in and be relevant to them. Marvel needs to do this on a line-wide scale.

So I feel that Marvel doesn't need to do a reboot so much as pause, take a deep breath, look at their characters and try to stitch back together their fractured universe.

[Phil]

-7.4% (#2 to #3) and -6.5% (#3 to #4) is not hemorrhaging.

46,851 to 23,242 is though.

If the series got made ongoing purely on the numbers from #1.

[EccentricSage]

I really wish that the industry would move to a season based model, like television. Twelve issues, then move on to the next big idea, creative team, etc. Commit to telling a good quality story with production value, then if the audience likes it continue with another season. If not move on. Sure there are cancelled shows, but for the most part the model works. Pilots could be your one shots or minis. Marvel relaunches titles wildly anyway.

That's actually a really good idea. It would be nice if creative teams had a framework to work within. I was re-reading some of X-Factor and there was all sorts of loose ends because all indications were they didn't know they were being cancelled. Hell, they seemed to still have plans for Wildchild after issue #142, which effectively ended up being his extremely depressing last appearance in the title. If they knew how much time they had left, they could have planned, and he might never have ended up perfect fodder for Tierri. ;_;


46,851 to 23,242 is though.

If the series got made ongoing purely on the numbers from #1.

I'm pretty sure it's NORMAL for first issues to have unusually high sales. Collectors. If Marvel was going by the first issue's sales, then they're even bigger idiots than previously stated.

[EccentricSage]

I personally am against Marvel doing a reboot.

The reason being is that you throw out a lot of good along with the bad. And even nowadays, there are good stories out there to go along with the blech.

The wonderful part about comics is that anything broken can be fixed, any plot holes or inconsistencies explained (or just ignored to fade away into oblivion). Fred and Greg have proved that with this current AF. These characters were way mucked up prior to the current run, almost recognizable in some cases. Yet here we are, with the characters feeling more like themselves than we've seen in over a decade.

Marvel used to have an official "fact checker" named Peter Sanderson (he helped write some of the Deluxe Marvel Universe Handbooks) whose job was to make sure things lined up story wise in the MU. Want to know the status of The Leader for a story you want to write? You went to him. I know Marvel is slimming its workforce so doing this again would probably never happen, but it is obvious that not having someone like this in their stable has hurt the storytelling.

Also, there are some writers who so a good job of fixing those characters. Granted, you may not like the results, but you usually end up with a character that makes more sense. Kurt Busiek is good at this, as is Geoff Johns.

For instance, for almost two decades, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch's origins constantly changed and contradicted itself, until a couple different writers finally not only gave a definite origin, but even made all those conflicting accounts fit in and be relevant to them. Marvel needs to do this on a line-wide scale.

So I feel that Marvel doesn't need to do a reboot so much as pause, take a deep breath, look at their characters and try to stitch back together their fractured universe.

Nicely said. Fact checking should be so much easier, now, too. Not only does Marvel have it's own guidebooks and database, fans have created even more detailed wikias. Just look at the one here! If a writer is unsure about something, there are eager fans willing to list in detail dropped plot lines, conflicting back stories, loose threads, or plot holes. I think another problem is some writers want mindless adoration from fans and nothing else, and those are the writers who screw the MU up, because NOTHING seems to be done at all to reign them in anymore... which just seems insane to me.

It's a shame I won't be reading the stuff by the good writers because I can't find them amidst the muck and mire. Another problem with Masrvel is it's instability of late. I don't have the patience to start reading a book with a good creative team just to have it ether cancelled suddenly do to one bad month, or turned over to the Frank Tieris and Jeff Loebs of the industry. The stress isn't worth it, not at the high price comics cost now and how far out of the way I have to go just to buy one in person.

[Loki]

If some big name writer wants to come in and retcon the entire history of pretty much all feral mutants, especially two of Marvel's most famous rivals of all time, and intrinsically change the fabric of the Marvel Universe,
Well, Romulus might have proposed that theory, but it doesn't mean he's correct. Personally I put it down to him being a psycho supremacist who'd like to believe it, but his theory has a lot of holes in it, not least that some of his suggested lupines are pretty feline. My personal feelings are that the feral mutants are no more all part of the same subspecies than the winged mutants are all angelics or the ones like Nightcrawler are all demonic - they are just mutants with similar abilities that people lumped together as a homogenous group based on their surface similarities.

However, Ghost Girl and Shadowcat are both secretly members of the Phasians, and Aurora, Northstar, Quicksilver, the Luis Barrett Thunderbolt, Super Sabre, Golden Age Whizzer and Whiz Kid are all Speedygonzalians.


For example, I looked up Wolfsbain
Wolfsbane.


What's this BS about her being traumatized by her wolf form when regaining her powers, and being overcome by a feral impulse. Only time I ever remember her having THAT problem was when she was ****ed with by the Genotians back in X-Factor! Why do editors let writers go so far out of character with such well established characters?
To be fair, she wasn't so much traumatized by her wolf form when regaining her powers, as had a little bit of trouble controlling herself immediately after being repowered. She got her control back pretty quickly. As for the Reverend Craig thing, that was following brainwashing, so while it is down to the individual reader as to whether they liked or disliked it happening, it wasn't out of character, in as much as it was meant to be something she'd never normally do.


Marvel used to have an official "fact checker" named Peter Sanderson (he helped write some of the Deluxe Marvel Universe Handbooks) whose job was to make sure things lined up story wise in the MU. Want to know the status of The Leader for a story you want to write? You went to him. I know Marvel is slimming its workforce so doing this again would probably never happen, but it is obvious that not having someone like this in their stable has hurt the storytelling.
Writers still have a similar resource available to them. Not everyone feels the need to use it though.

[Loki]

Nicely said. Fact checking should be so much easier, now, too. Not only does Marvel have it's own guidebooks and database, fans have created even more detailed wikias.
Please do not suggest writers use wikias to do their fact checking. Do you really want the second Deadly Ernest to become canon?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I remember Marvel when it was the House of Ideas...Not because of 101 tie-ins or that it promised to change the face of the universe year-after-year-after-year.
I remember when Marvel had integrity, spirit, identity and took risks...More and more it was about the buck, the fans were only consumers and no longer had a face. 20k fans reading a comic is apparently not enough...that's too bad.
No longer the House of Ideas it's more of the House of Cloned Franchises. Where is my Alpha Flight?...

I remember when Marvel gave me a diverse line-up of comics to choose from.

But I'm starting to forget.

I'm there with you, but I don't want to forget. I remember John Buscema's Silver Surfer # 1. I remember the introduction of the Squadron Sinister (still have it and still one of my favorites). I remember reading the death of Capt. Stacey (that got to me), then the drug-addicted Harry Osborne, the death of Gwen Stacey (and I didn't pick up on the way Spider-Man tried to save her!), and the death of the Green Goblin! I remember Jim Starlin starting his Warlock with issue # 9! (what a run) I remember Uncanny X-Men #100, my first new X-Men at the time...at that time, Cockrum inking Cockrum was some of the best artwork ever produced! I remember the 15-issue run of Iron Fist (after an unforgettable GIL KANE/Roy Thomas origin). I remember Gene Colan's Daredevil...

And I think, grown-ups or not, storytelling like that can happen again. Maybe (probably) not as often, now, but it can still happen...even with a few contemporary "tweaks".

[DaVeO]

Today I cancelled most of my Marvels except AF, X-Factor and the remaining issue of Cloak & Dagger and Deadly Hands of Kung-Fu. It was actually quite a freeing feeling. If I start to see a change in how they run their business and treat the fans I'll *consider* returning. I honestly don't feel they give a crap about us other then our worth as consumers. Not the talent mind you, just the higher ups. Time to look for other pastures. Here is my shortlist of TO GET trades.

The Walking Dead (I've read the first five hardcover collections and I think it may be the greatest comic ever)
Invincible (I bought the Ultimate Ed HC and it was the most enjoyable super hero story I've read in the past ten years. Beats Spider-Man hands down)
B.P.R.D. (I'm up to date with Hellboy so I'm going to finally start with the Plague of Frogs HC)
The Sixth Gun (cowboys and occult? YES PLEASE!)
Street Fighter collections (I love those artists from UDON)
DC will get my super hero bucks, especially that Dark line which I'm loving as well as Batwoman and Aquaman.
And of course Fables is my continuing series from Vertigo.

I refuse to let Marvel stab me in the heart again, so I'll just leave them with a little less revenue. :cool:

[Flightpath07]

Today I cancelled most of my Marvels except AF, X-Factor and the remaining issue of Cloak & Dagger and Deadly Hands of Kung-Fu. It was actually quite a freeing feeling. If I start to see a change in how they run their business and treat the fans I'll *consider* returning. I honestly don't feel they give a crap about us other then our worth as consumers. Not the talent mind you, just the higher ups. Time to look for other pastures.

As much as i have said i am quitting Marvel, they will still (for now) get my bucks for their Avengers Academy issues. But that is it, unless i see some new (or re-printed, perhaps) Flight appearances that i want. I can't quit Avengers Academy, because it is some of the best storytelling that has happened to Marvel in about twenty years. I can even get past the fact that the young heroes of the story really aren't very heroic...as long as they keep faithfully building the characters and letting me see what goes on inside their heads and in their lives like they do, I'll buy it.

[Le Messor]

If you ask me, where Marvel went wrong was in not staying true to the integrity of the characters' back stories and the main MU's history...

Yeah, I agree there. I hate it when writers come in, stomp over the characters they're supposed to be writing, and then declare themselves great writers.
Grant Morrison's X-Men; would've been a great original, but he had to destroy the integrity of the characters to write otherwise good ideas.

I may be kind of technically quitting Marvel.

This isn't some stand or a fit of pique, they're just not making anything new right now that interests me.
(Still going with the Marvel Premiere Classics, though.)

- Le Messor
"If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacement anyway."

[DaVeO]

Oh and for the books. I do think Marvel should do a New 52-reboot style thang. I really think I would like them more if creative teams got shuffled around, they brought back some old fan faves(bloody yes Alpha Flight included!), they ditched events for 2 years so an event could actually mean something again, they cut down on repeated titles that aren't very different from each other i.e. The 3 Justice League titles at DC each have very different concepts. The two Avenger titles do not, so axe one of them. This forces consumers to try titles they may not have normally would. There is that diversity thing I'm always crying about.

[Le Messor]

I do think Marvel should do a New 52-reboot style thang.

Well, for that, Marvel have the Ultimate universe.
There were a lot of comparisons when the New 52 came out, too.

- Le Messor
"If I was being executed by lethal injection, I'd clean up my cell real neat. Then, when they came to get me, I'd say, "Injection? I thought you said 'inspection.'" they'd probably feel real bad and maybe I could get out of it."