Wolverine #304 (2012) - Return of an Alpha Flight member

[-K-M-]

SPOILERS













As some guessed Wild Child didn't die from his encounter with Omega Red and appeared in this issue (no speaking lines and appeared in just two panels). No explanation, how he survived but he and a bunch of villians all go to a party for Sabretooth (He recently returned from the dead) and ALL get beaten by Wolverine fairly easy. It's pretty ridic he beat them all that way. Villians include (Lady and Lord Deathstrike, Sauron, Tigershark, Mad Cap, Silver Samurai II, Wild Child, Sabretooth, Mystique, Daken, Bloodscream, Jade Claw, new White Queen, Soulstriker, Dr.Rot (at the door) and many others)

Also mentioned Wild Child would be the only one that used to show up during Sabretooth's older parties


END SPOILER

[rplass]

Thanks for the awesome find! So glad to know he's back. I wonder how it happened. How did Sabretooth return from the dead?

Love,
rplass

[-K-M-]

They havent revealed that yet, I assume most likely the Hand had a part in it as they brought back Mystique too.

[cmdrkoenig67]

SPOILERS














As some guessed Wild Child didn't die from his encounter with Omega Red and appeared in this issue (no speaking lines and appeared in just two panels). No explanation, how he survived but he and a bunch of villians all go to a party for Sabretooth (He recently returned from the dead) and ALL get beaten by Wolverine fairly easy. It's pretty ridic he beat them all that way. Villians include (Lady and Lord Deathstrike, Sauron, Tigershark, Mad Cap, Silver Samurai II, Wild Child, Sabretooth, Mystique, Daken, Bloodscream, Jade Claw, new White Queen, Soulstriker, Dr.Rot (at the door) and many others)

Also mentioned Wild Child would be the only one that used to show up during Sabretooth's older parties


END SPOILER


Spoilers?....












I knew he wasn't dead...I think I posted about it when the Wolverine in Hell story was going on (it was my theory for Wild Child for not appearing in Hell).

Dana

[Flightpath07]

AWESOME! Next questions; (1) did WC still look all tricked out with the piercings and whatnot? If not, what version of Kyle did we get back? (b) Is this the evil Wild Child, or the sad and sometimes-heroic loner (see my avatar for example)?

ps - Just added this issue to my "wants" list.

[Flightpath07]

Looking around online, i see that Sabretooth and Mystique are now a couple, as well? That should be a formidable pairing.

[-K-M-]

Be warned, this is a pretty awful book. Other then the brief Wild Child apperance I would not reccomend getting it.


AWESOME! Next questions; (1) did WC still look all tricked out with the piercings and whatnot? If not, what version of Kyle did we get back? (b) Is this the evil Wild Child, or the sad and sometimes-heroic loner (see my avatar for example)?

ps - Just added this issue to my "wants" list.

Tricked out with the piercings, same look when he was an agent for Romulous


Looking around online, i see that Sabretooth and Mystique are now a couple, as well? That should be a formidable pairing.

They already had a kid together ie. Graydon Creed

[Le Messor]

Did Sabes throw the party himself? It's just, this is the first 'back from the dead' party I've ever heard of.
Which, come to think of it, should be a regular thing in the Marvel Universe.

- Le Messor
"If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"
"Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."
~ Blackadder Goes Forth

[-K-M-]

Yeah he threw it, but the party was to celebrate the fact Sabretooth became the "secret assassin lord of the entire eastern hemisphere" and that's why all the villians showed up.

Sabretooth: "look at them. Any one of them would kill me at the drop of a hat. That's the only reason they're here. To size me up, looking for an opening"
Mystique: "Welcome to the top, my dear. Best get used to everyone you meet wanting to kill you."

[Flightpath07]

KM, I see online that some people hate the comic, some love it. It's the writer's style (as shown monthly in Wolverine and the X-Men) to be tongue-in-cheek humorous; some people don't like that. Personally, i don't mind it.

That being said, I'll be getting it only for the Wild Child appearance.

[-K-M-]

Aaron's previous work on Wolverine has been great, even his Wolverine and the X-Men series is a really fun read. HOWEVER, this issue definetly was a depature (it was also his last issue writing Wolverine too) for me. Also having 4 different artists felt disjointed (some of the art was great, but Dillion I felt was the worst and was most of the issue). I also felt the dialogue was subpar and scenes such as Daken and Silver Samurai II, as well as Lady Deathstrike and Soulstriker seemed very forced and just wasn't funny.

Generally the people that really loved it are the Wolverine fanboys that are excited he easily beat all those villians with ease. It's sort of a fanboy wet-dream and completly destroys the credibility of them as a threat.

[Flightpath07]

I understand the frustration of Wolverine wading into a pile of enemies and easily defeating them. Sounds more like something you'd see in an all-ages comic.

However, this WAS Aaron's last issue. I'd have to beleive that he worked hard with the oncoming writer in developing this story, so it seems that the blame cannot be laid solely at his feet. I think there are some major plot holes in just suddenly bringing back a whole bunch of dead characters, it makes it almost like the last several years never happened. Obviously, future writers wanted to use the characters, but it makes it sound more like waking up from a bad dream where everybody has died to find they are still alive. Seems fitting, however, that if Wolverine cannot stay dead, neither can his enemies.

[Phil]

I really enjoyed #'s 1-8 but since then I've disliked the title more and more with each issue, and was about to drop it when Bunn was announced as new writer.
He's got 6 issues to save the title, else it's gone for me.

Also; I think I'm the only person who doesn't like Wolverine & The X-Men. I can see why a lot of people would, but for me it's just too goofy and disjointed. Like Aaron's trying to hard to recapture as many elements of past writers and fit his own voice in. But what do I know...

[Le Messor]

I've just realised from the title of this thread that they've reset the numbering, too. For whatever that's worth.

I haven't been reading Wolverine and The X-Men, but goofy sounds good to me... disjointed, not so much.

- Le Messor
"If this were subjunctive, I'm in the wrong mood."

[Phil]

That's the thing... I'm all for fun and quirky, I just feel it's trying too hard to be fun & quirky, almost like AF Vol.3 was.

[Flightpath07]

tricked out with the piercings, same look when he was an agent for romulous.


yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Flightpath07]

I think I'm the only person who doesn't like Wolverine & The X-Men. I can see why a lot of people would, but for me it's just too goofy and disjointed. Like Aaron's trying to hard to recapture as many elements of past writers and fit his own voice in. But what do I know...

You`re `probably`not the only one.

I like WatXM, tho. Some of us on this site at one time or another have offered up the complain that comics are too dark nowadays; this combats that. I miss the days when comics were fun and enjoyable; I think it was X-Men that first started to ruin that for me, back in the late 80`s or so.

[Flightpath07]

I've just realised from the title of this thread that they've reset the numbering, too. For whatever that's worth.

I haven't been reading Wolverine and The X-Men, but goofy sounds good to me... disjointed, not so much.

- Le Messor
"If this were subjunctive, I'm in the wrong mood."

Disjointed; Lacking order or coherence.

I`m thinking that word doesn`t fit. You don`t need to read any other X-titles to read and enjoy WatXM, I should know as it is almost the only Marvel title I purchase. It still tells stories that make sense, and in perfect order, from beginning to middle and through to the end.

Coherence: a logical, orderly, and aesthetically consistent relationship of parts.

Again, I`m not sure what would be considered disorderly about any of the issues I have read so far. Or illogical, evenm though it is clearly meant to be humourous it still makes sense, and it isn`t like it is out of continuancy or set in another universe or parallel dimension or anything. It just tells of the whacky goings-on at the Jean Grey School for Higher Learning!

[Le Messor]

It's starting to sound good to me.

[Phil]

Disjointed; Lacking order or coherence.

I`m thinking that word doesn`t fit. You don`t need to read any other X-titles to read and enjoy WatXM, I should know as it is almost the only Marvel title I purchase. It still tells stories that make sense, and in perfect order, from beginning to middle and through to the end.

Coherence: a logical, orderly, and aesthetically consistent relationship of parts.

Again, I`m not sure what would be considered disorderly about any of the issues I have read so far. Or illogical, evenm though it is clearly meant to be humourous it still makes sense, and it isn`t like it is out of continuancy or set in another universe or parallel dimension or anything. It just tells of the whacky goings-on at the Jean Grey School for Higher Learning!

It's elements like the Bamf's, Krakatoa, Kid Gladiator all just being shoehorned in with no explanation, combined with almost 3 Stooges-esque humour, and Wolverine being portrayed as a caring headmaster in this book (and Avengers for that matter) whilst being a ruthless coldblooded killer in Uncanny X-Force. Then there's the extremely forced Kitty/Bobby thing, Toad being totally out of character, the completely jarring creative teams (Bachalo to Bradshaw), plus the upcoming AvX tie-ins.

As I said, I get why people like it, I don't dislike it per se; It's just not a book for me.

[Flightpath07]

It's elements like the Bamf's, Krakatoa, Kid Gladiator all just being shoehorned in with no explanation, combined with almost 3 Stooges-esque humour, and Wolverine being portrayed as a caring headmaster in this book (and Avengers for that matter) whilst being a ruthless coldblooded killer in Uncanny X-Force. Then there's the extremely forced Kitty/Bobby thing, Toad being totally out of character, the completely jarring creative teams (Bachalo to Bradshaw), plus the upcoming AvX tie-ins.

As I said, I get why people like it, I don't dislike it per se; It's just not a book for me.

Popular superhero comics have almost always been based around teenagers. Original X-Men were teenagers. And teams like X-Men have had many teenagers on them. FF always had teen-like angst, with the jokes and stuff between Johnny and Ben, and with Johnny being so immature. Spider-Man was the teen with the jokes, swinging through the city, one step ahead of the authoritative figure of J. Jonah Jamison.

Comics about teens hit with a wide variety of audiences. Teens can relate, but so can adults as we have all been teens (and most of us, mentally, still feel like we ARE teens). Children can relate, as they are approaching (and looking up to) teenagers.

This, to me, is a perfect setting; a school. It is silly, it is humorous. But, take away the super-powers, and it is a lot like real life. And that is what makes it work.

As far as Wolvie the Headmaster not fitting with other people's versions of himself, I think this Wolverine was more taken from the popular and successful Wolverine and the X-Men animated series. In many ways, its a more adult (mature) and more reflective Wolverine, recognizing that he has to hand something down to the youth of the world, something more than just a body count. I like this version of Logan, and wish it were the ONLY one being used.

To me, this is the Wolverine who would show up at Alpha Flight's funerals, rather than the Wolverine who forgot he even knew or cared about them until far afterward.

[Jason Eberly]

You`re `probably`not the only one.

I like WatXM, tho. Some of us on this site at one time or another have offered up the complain that comics are too dark nowadays; this combats that. I miss the days when comics were fun and enjoyable; I think it was X-Men that first started to ruin that for me, back in the late 80`s or so.

I find that too many comics that try to get away from the cliched "darkness" of comics go way too far to the other end of the spectrum, and end up getting too goofy and silly. What seems to be lost these days is that nice middle ground...a fun, yet serious story that doesn't make you feel like taking a shower afterwards.

[Jason Eberly]

Toad being totally out of character,

Toad has been out of character since the original X-Men movie came out in 2000.

[Phil]

Popular superhero comics have almost always been based around teenagers. Original X-Men were teenagers. And teams like X-Men have had many teenagers on them. FF always had teen-like angst, with the jokes and stuff between Johnny and Ben, and with Johnny being so immature. Spider-Man was the teen with the jokes, swinging through the city, one step ahead of the authoritative figure of J. Jonah Jamison.
I've got nothing against teenagers or fun in comics, I just don't feel that being 'fun' should be an excuse for sloppy writing - "Why did that just happen? Oh it doesn't matter because it's fun!" "Why are there all these Bamf's with no explanation or reason? Oh, people won't care because they're fun!"


Comics about teens hit with a wide variety of audiences. Teens can relate, but so can adults as we have all been teens (and most of us, mentally, still feel like we ARE teens). Children can relate, as they are approaching (and looking up to) teenagers.
Again, my issue was never about teenagers.


This, to me, is a perfect setting; a school. It is silly, it is humorous. But, take away the super-powers, and it is a lot like real life. And that is what makes it work.
That's fine, but you can have humourous and fun and real life AND good writing.
That was what I liked about Byrne's AF - The Puck/Walt banter, and his FF - The Jonny/Ben banter, as you mentioned above.
Fun, but made sense.

But again, I seem to be the only person online who feels this way, so it's probably me.


As far as Wolvie the Headmaster not fitting with other people's versions of himself, I think this Wolverine was more taken from the popular and successful Wolverine and the X-Men animated series.
But its not though; it's direct 616 continuity straight out of Schism, and crosses over with Uncanny X-Force and AvX, hence the disjointed.

[Flightpath07]

"Why are there all these Bamf's with no explanation or reason? Oh, people won't care because they're fun!"

Ah, but one of the characters (can't offhand remember which one) asked about them too. I beleive it was Logan (?) who said he would explain later. Just because everything isn't explained upfront, doesn't mean necessarily that there is no good reason for it. As an aside, I really loved the (original) Nightcrawler limited series with the Bamfs and all that, it was one of the most fun series i have ever read, and I was proud to pass on my love of it ot my daughter.



But again, I seem to be the only person online who feels this way, so it's probably me.

I think you are too hard on yourself, sir! Just because we disagree, doesn't mean we cant be civil.

Unless we are in a civil war, then we cant be civil, because that would just be silly.


But its not though; it's direct 616 continuity straight out of Schism, and crosses over with Uncanny X-Force and AvX, hence the disjointed.

IMHO, it is more disjointed for Wolverine to be on 16-hundred different super-teams.

[Phil]

Ah, but one of the characters (can't offhand remember which one) asked about them too. I beleive it was Logan (?) who said he would explain later. Just because everything isn't explained upfront, doesn't mean necessarily that there is no good reason for it.
Well when it's explained I'll gladly eat my words and my hat ;)


I think you are too hard on yourself, sir! Just because we disagree, doesn't mean we cant be civil.
Oh, not just here.
I've been saying that for a while, as so far I haven't seen a bad review.


IMHO, it is more disjointed for Wolverine to be on 16-hundred different super-teams.
I agree, so giving him an extra title and role and team really isn't helping.

[Le Messor]

I find that too many comics that try to get away from the cliched "darkness" of comics go way too far to the other end of the spectrum, and end up getting too goofy and silly.

Generally, I agree with that issue - that people have too much binary thinking, and can never find a middle ground. But since I'd rather see a goofy silly comic than a too-serious one, I was a little iffy about that, until...


What seems to be lost these days is that nice middle ground...a fun, yet serious story that doesn't make you feel like taking a shower afterwards.

Yeah. That's definitely what I want (Hm... when I wrote this, I realised it could be read as sarcastic. No! I mean it!)

Sounds like you agree with Phil, too. If so, please tell him!


Toad has been out of character since the original X-Men movie came out in 2000.

Yep. Then again, that was basically Spider-Man playing him in the movie anyway.

- Le Messor
"If we do not succeed, then we face the risk of failure."
~ Dan Quayle

[Phil]

I wonder if Wildchild (Or Sasquatch for that matter) might be a part of Sabretooth Reborn:
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/c2e2-2012-wolverine-sabretooth-loeb.html
http://www.comicvine.com/news/c2e2-jeph-loeb-and-simone-bianchi-prepare-sabretooths-rebirth/144565/

[-K-M-]

I would assume Wild Child, but I hope Sasquatch doesn't. There was really no reason for him to be in that last Loeb story...lupine? Bah!

[Flightpath07]

I would assume Wild Child, but I hope Sasquatch doesn't. There was really no reason for him to be in that last Loeb story...lupine? Bah!

Agreed.

[Le Messor]

There was really no reason for him to be in that last Loeb story...lupine? Bah!

That's the one thing of Loeb's that I've read that I thought was genuinely bad.
Half of them weren't remotely canine. Confusing cats and apes with dogs? That's worse than calling a chimpanzee a monkey.

- Le Messor
"If we breed like rabbits, in the long run we have we have to die like rabbits."
~ Carlson

[EccentricSage]

I thought that synopsis was a joke at first. **** you Marvel, **** you.

Why the hell would Wildchild even be at a party for Sabertooth? Great, this writer has even less knowledge about the character than the last. I would have liked for him to be brought back in a creative way that makes sense and isn't centered around Sabertooth or Wolverine. You guys remember when Wildchild, for all his inconsistencies, was still at least his own character? *sigh*

I will not touch anything Wolverine is playing a main role in nowadays. He is cancer.

[EccentricSage]

Yeah he threw it, but the party was to celebrate the fact Sabretooth became the "secret assassin lord of the entire eastern hemisphere" and that's why all the villians showed up.

Sabretooth: "look at them. Any one of them would kill me at the drop of a hat. That's the only reason they're here. To size me up, looking for an opening"
Mystique: "Welcome to the top, my dear. Best get used to everyone you meet wanting to kill you."

](*,)

Oh god... That characterization is Loeb and Way level bad. Just kill the lot of them off and start over Marvel! Put them all out of their misery. This is just getting disgusting.

[Flightpath07]

I didn't have a problem with it.

[EccentricSage]

What's nice for you, then. I think the entire concept of it is awful. I'm already in a bad mood today for other reasons, though, so not mentally prepared for an in depth discussion of the pros and cons, though. I just really hoped if it happened, it would have been different. This is just more of the same.

[Flightpath07]

Well, bringing back Wild Child, in and of itself, is a good thing.

I didn't mind the silly, comedic style of the whole issue. Comics all full of darkness and death and grey tones and moody heroes who kill without feeling bad and deaths of heroes off-panel...all that stuff get me depressed. Id' rather see some lightheartedness thrown in there. Comics are SUPPOSED to be fun, after all!

That being said, those who don't like it, i get it, not saying you are wrong in feeling differently about it. To each their own.

[EccentricSage]

I agree with you on that, it's just that the concept of Sabretooth as some top assassin and all these villains hanging around him... and the return of his romance with Mystique? All lovey dovey now? Really? Ugh. I second those who say we can have fun and light without going full on ******.

I would rather Wildchild stay dead than be resurrected just to be Sabes' ***** or Wolverine's punching bag again. And Loeb's make-over has got to go. Nipple rings? Really? I still can't get over how stupid it is, all these years later. I really just can't be happy with what Marvel does anymore. I got some X-Factor, and it's really good, but even there there's the whole Rhane Sinclair issue.

[Le Messor]

I'd rather see some lightheartedness thrown in there. Comics are SUPPOSED to be fun, after all!

Me too!

- LM
"If you're ridin' ahead of the herd, take a look back every now and then to make sure it's still there."

[Flightpath07]

And Loeb's make-over has got to go. Nipple rings? Really? I still can't get over how stupid it is, all these years later. I really just can't be happy with what Marvel does anymore.

Well, i agree with that last sentence, although they keep momentarily sucking me back in. Still reading books such as "Secret Avengers" and "Defenders", and most especially "Wolverine and the X-Men" which i LOVE.

As far as Wild Child's 'new' look (its really kind of old, now), i can roll with it. It came about at the same time as his brand-new kick-arse attitude, and his extreme beat-down of Wolverine; anything that makes Kyle into a great arch-villain, I am all for!

[EccentricSage]

I hate this version of him, though. Yeah, he beat Wolverine, but other than that he's a pretty flat character... just a typical sneering villain with no depth, not a trace of the character I loved. Loeb's whole story was terrible and I'd rather pretend it never happened than glorify it because Wildchild got one feat out of it to add to his list. 'Sides, most fans I've seen online HATE Wildchild now, and not in the good 'love to hate that bastard' way that Sabertooth tends to enjoy, they think he's a lame Mini-Sabe with a bad Hot Topic makeover, and that his sudden overpowered status is uncalled for and remains unjustified and unexplained. It's embarrassing, and I doubt I'll ever see anything good done with him ever again, if Marvel is sticking with this version of him.

[Le Messor]

Yeah, he beat Wolverine, but other than that he's a pretty flat character... just a typical sneering villain with no depth

Agreed.

- Le Messor
"Ignorant?! Ha! I don't even know the meaning of the word!"

[Flightpath07]

'Sides, most fans I've seen online HATE Wildchild now, and not in the good 'love to hate that bastard' way that Sabertooth tends to enjoy, they think he's a lame Mini-Sabe with a bad Hot Topic makeover, and that his sudden overpowered status is uncalled for and remains unjustified and unexplained. It's embarrassing, and I doubt I'll ever see anything good done with him ever again, if Marvel is sticking with this version of him.

I wonder how much of that comes from his Age of Apocalypse appearances and whatnot, as he is 'literally' Sabretooth's lapdog in those issues. I think those appearances, more than any other, ruined his credibility forever; doesn't matter that they take place in another universe/reality/whatever, as the people see them and then associate the character of Wild Child with them (as he wasn't really being used anywhere else at the time that would get him more, and better, publicity).

[Phil]

Without the Age of Apocalypse appearances though he'd never have become a part of X-Factor so I think they worked out well.

[EccentricSage]

Nope. They were specifically talking about Loeb and Way's run. I think the only ones who see 616 Wildchild as the same as AoA Wildchild are jaded editors who want to capitalize on the popularity of the AoA universe. Though they committed economic suicide letting some douche kill a whole bunch of the AoA characters off all at once recently, including AoA Wildchild.

Funny enough, I've had conversations with people who liked AoA Wildchild because he was mini sabes in a lovable way, while despising 616 Wildchild because they saw Loeb's version as a lame replacement for Sabretooth. And I agree with them. This isn't Wildchild to me, but then, who IS Wildchild at this point?

[EccentricSage]

Without the Age of Apocalypse appearances though he'd never have become a part of X-Factor so I think they worked out well.

Shame how it turned out though. I loved him when he first joined, regardless of identity crisis issues. But boy did they **** things up as soon as the creative team changed. His look was perfect at that time, too... he LOOKED like Weapon Omega, slowly reverting to the way Wildchild originally looked. I just wish the writer had focused more on the trauma of slowly turning back into the insane monster who killed people and the horror of what was done to him instead of making it a superficial thing about not wanting to be ugly.

Interesting thing I noticed; for Wildchild's last appearance in X-Factor, the Editor who had brought him to that book was the editor again, just for that one issue, not the idiot who said he's 16. At least someone loved him.

[Phil]

I don't fully think Loeb/Way/Aaron's Wildchild is the greatest (or the greatest design) but it fits in with his original Byrne persona more than the Lobdell version did, and I feel it's a better use than the depowered version after M-Day.

[EccentricSage]

We hardly got to know Byrne's Wildchild, though. He was a fantastic character design, but what little we saw of him was while he was under a type of mind control. So we know he was smart, and feral, but we don't know if he was really a bad guy or just Courtney's victim like Lil. Him and Lil seemed pretty friendly at least, which makes me think he was at least sociable some of the time, and then there's that retcon later where Madison says they were best buddies before the flight program was disbanded. And you're ignoring all the character development that happened between Byrne Era and Post-M-Day. His history is convoluted, but there were some lovable parts. Now he has no depth, they treat him as filler. Just something for Wolverine to beat up again.

[Phil]

I'm not ignoring everything between Byrne and M-Day, I just mean that to me the Loeb/Way/Aaron version that's slightly feral yet smart, cunning and intelligent enough to beat Wolverine in a fight (cos let's not forget that in Wolverine:Evolution and Wolverine Origins #38 Wildchild beats Wolverine. It's Omega Red that kills him in #39.) is more in line with Byrne's version than Lobdell's heroic and handsome Weapon Omega was.

[EccentricSage]

The feral but smart part is in line with Byrne's Wildchild, I'll agree to that. His skill is actually in line with Weapon Omega/Wild Heart, technically.

I miss all the character development that made him a deeply conflicted and interesting character who fans could sympathise with, though. I took Romulus' henchman Wildchild as being more manipulation and mind control techniques at work. I have to at least credit Tieri with establishing that Wildchild is so damaged that others can shape his identity easily. (yes, I just said Tieri did something right. Hell hath frozen over.) Though that is tragic as ****. At least that leaves an out for anyone who wants to redeem him.

[Le Messor]

We hardly got to know Byrne's Wildchild, though. He was a fantastic character design,

I always found that version - the original and best - to be unique and interesting; a wild, Wolverine-style character with claws and presumably a healing factor, who looked different, but in a real-world plausible way; and most of all who, despite all this, was eloquent and verbose.
Everyone since has ignored all that and made him just another of those Wolverine clones that cropped up all over the place in the 90s. (I mean that in terms of how he was written, not a literal clone).

- Le Messor
Debbie Jellinsky: I'll be leaving the country very soon.
Ticket Agent: Will you be traveling alone?
Debbie Jellinsky: Yes, I'll be a widow.

[Flightpath07]

not a literal clone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d-aWMQuoS4

[EccentricSage]

I always found that version - the original and best - to be unique and interesting; a wild, Wolverine-style character with claws and presumably a healing factor, who looked different, but in a real-world plausible way; and most of all who, despite all this, was eloquent and verbose.
Everyone since has ignored all that and made him just another of those Wolverine clones that cropped up all over the place in the 90s. (I mean that in terms of how he was written, not a literal clone).


I'll agree with you on that wholeheartedly. I think any writer who cares about his craft could easily bring back Byrne's Wildchild and simply amalgamate most of the different personas he's had into aspects of who he is. They could easily go sympathetic villain or redeem him into a hero. He's naturally have a lot of the type of rebelliousness, edginess, snark, and wit that people like as a result of his history, without it being forced. (unlike Marina)

2553 2554 2555

I really need to do a FINISHED drawing of him. But boy is he fun to doodle.

[Flightpath07]

Hey! Nice art!

[Le Messor]

could easily bring back Byrne's Wildchild and simply amalgamate most of the different personas he's had into aspects of who he is.

Yeah, it'd be so easy to do it right.

And, like FP: Nice art!

- Le Messor
"Ignorance transcends architecture."
~ James Gaskin

[Flightpath07]

ES, you got some real skills there! Not only do you need to finish a drawing of Wild Child, but you should do so SOON, and then post it here immediately, if not send it directly to Marvel with your job application. I'd buy a one-shot Wild Child Special with you as artist!

[EccentricSage]

Double post. sorry. The website likes to log me out every time I try to submit a post, an image, etc.

[EccentricSage]

Aw, thank you! I'm still working on things like anatomy, drawing people from different angles, interactions of anatomy in scenes, page layout... I've got a ways to go before I could pencil professionally. I might apply for an inking position, though... I've gotten pretty fast at that.


BTW, what became of Romulus? Did Wolverine kill him or is he still lurking in the shadows? I mean, when Wildchild came back into the picture as his henchman, his identity seemed pretty defined by his status as Romulus' favorite, or at least it seemed that way from what I could find online in blogs and on 4chan. Weather or not Romulus is still in the picture could effect a lot now that Wildchild isn't dead (with no explanation).

[Phil]

This thread has made me go back and re-read Amazing Heroes #76 and the article bout the Byrne/Mantlo switch...

It's strange how even then, Byrne's almost-venom comes out in his words with regards to what he wanted to do with the title... and how some of Mantlo's ideas seemed really good on paper and some, even then, seemed doomed to fail...

Completely tangential I know...

[Phil]

BTW, what became of Romulus? Did Wolverine kill him or is he still lurking in the shadows? I mean, when Wildchild came back into the picture as his henchman, his identity seemed pretty defined by his status as Romulus' favorite, or at least it seemed that way from what I could find online in blogs and on 4chan. Weather or not Romulus is still in the picture could effect a lot now that Wildchild isn't dead (with no explanation).

Romulus is currently in a shadow-dimension (or something) via Cloak (of Cloak & Dagger) and chances are he'll be back in Loeb's follow up arc.
Wildchild was never shown as dead, it was just assumed, so him being back doesn't need explaining and there's a chance that Aaron put him in the background in Sabretooth's party because Loeb plans on using him, so wanted to remind people he was still about/show he was alive.

[Le Messor]

This thread has made me go back and re-read Amazing Heroes #76 and the article bout the Byrne/Mantlo switch...

I've not read it, but it sounds interesting!


Romulus is currently in a shadow-dimension (or something) via Cloak (of Cloak & Dagger)

Cloak accesses the Dark Force dimension (like a lot of Marvel characters - there was even a crossover based on it), so that's probably it.


Wildchild was never shown as dead, it was just assumed, so him being back doesn't need explaining

Wasn't he dumped in molten steel?
That's not the kind of thing you walk away from, and Lord knows I've tried.

- Le Messor
"I have opinions of my own - strong opinions - but I don't always agree with them."
~ George Bush

[Phil]

Wasn't he dumped in molten steel?
That's not the kind of thing you walk away from, and Lord knows I've tried.

Yeah, but at this point in time he had an artificial modified healing factor that rivalled Wolverine's and we've seen him heal from worse.

[Le Messor]

Yeah, but at this point in time he had an artificial modified healing factor that rivalled Wolverine's and we've seen him heal from worse.

'tis only a flesh wound!

[EccentricSage]

Romulus is currently in a shadow-dimension (or something) via Cloak (of Cloak & Dagger) and chances are he'll be back in Loeb's follow up arc.
Wildchild was never shown as dead, it was just assumed, so him being back doesn't need explaining and there's a chance that Aaron put him in the background in Sabretooth's party because Loeb plans on using him, so wanted to remind people he was still about/show he was alive.


Ugh. More of that tripe, huh? Great.

Wildchild was shown being engulfed by molten metal. He has never had a healing factor on par with Wolverine or Sabretooth. That's on-pannel death. Damn skippy I want a better explanation than 'lol power up' and 'he never died'. These writers are terrible.

[Phil]

He has never had a healing factor on par with Wolverine or Sabretooth.
In his original incarnation, no.
As of Wolverine #53 after being artifically powered by Romulus, yes.

Wolverine #53 being after M-Day where he lost his powers and was completely human(New Excalibur #9).

[EccentricSage]

In his original incarnation, no.
As of Wolverine #53 after being artificially powered by Romulus, yes.

Wolverine #53 being after M-Day where he lost his powers and was completely human(New Excalibur #9).

See, my issue is with all of the above. lol Depowering him was stupid since Marvel has always played up the 'is he Sabretooth's bastard son' mystery. Over powering him isn't an improvement, ether. I hate all these immortal feral mutants. How boring is it to read stories where no one need fear for their mortality, and you know none of them will really die? These characters have become completely unrelateable thanks to a bunch of writers who write like 12 year old WWE enthusiasts. This is like the world's worst fanfic round robin. "Ha, I killed off one of your guys, lol." "Screw you, he's immortal now he can't die""Oh yeah, well Wolverine is ten times more powerful than a whole room full of immortal villains now, and beats them all up! So there!"

LAME. It would have been a blessing for Wildchild to be de-powered. I'd rather read a story about former mutants dealing with this change in their lives, and see how he handles it since it was the source of so much suffering, though I imagine he would still be insane and institutionalized for years to get his life back, the poor ****er. I want a story with some heart written by people who care about the characters and who develop them further. Not a reenactment of some kid's Overpower session.

[Sypes]

See, my issue is with all of the above. lol Depowering him was stupid since Marvel has always played up the 'is he Sabretooth's bastard son' mystery. Over powering him isn't an improvement, ether. I hate all these immortal feral mutants. How boring is it to read stories where no one need fear for their mortality, and you know none of them will really die? These characters have become completely unrelateable thanks to a bunch of writers who write like 12 year old WWE enthusiasts. This is like the world's worst fanfic round robin. "Ha, I killed off one of your guys, lol." "Screw you, he's immortal now he can't die""Oh yeah, well Wolverine is ten times more powerful than a whole room full of immortal villains now, and beats them all up! So there!"

LAME. It would have been a blessing for Wildchild to be de-powered. I'd rather read a story about former mutants dealing with this change in their lives, and see how he handles it since it was the source of so much suffering, though I imagine he would still be insane and institutionalized for years to get his life back, the poor ****er. I want a story with some heart written by people who care about the characters and who develop them further. Not a reenactment of some kid's Overpower session.

Couldn't agree more with you! There is nothing more boring than immortality! I love characters that are weak, have fears and flaws. That's what makes them relateable to me. I had to outline the same thing to a player in a RPG game I played, in which her character can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. And even with my characters explaining that people love flaws, etc... she still continued to write as if he character was God (and more!). Boooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnggg ggggggggg!

[Le Messor]

"Ha, I killed off one of your guys, lol." "Screw you, he's immortal now he can't die""Oh yeah, well Wolverine is ten times more powerful than a whole room full of immortal villains now, and beats them all up! So there!"

LOL! That's perfect!


I'd rather read a story about former mutants dealing with this change in their lives, and see how he handles it

That would've been interesting, but I don't know of anywhere they paid more than lip service to that idea.
New Warriors, the in-name-only v3? It seemed to kind of cover that but not really explore it.


There is nothing more boring than immortality!

Hey! I resemble that remark!
It depends how it's handled; Highlander is one of my favourite movies.

- Le Messor
"Ignore previous fortune."

[Phil]

That would've been interesting, but I don't know of anywhere they paid more than lip service to that idea.
New Warriors, the in-name-only v3? It seemed to kind of cover that but not really explore it.
Generation M skirted with it.

[EccentricSage]

Couldn't agree more with you! There is nothing more boring than immortality! I love characters that are weak, have fears and flaws. That's what makes them relateable to me. I had to outline the same thing to a player in a RPG game I played, in which her character can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. And even with my characters explaining that people love flaws, etc... she still continued to write as if he character was God (and more!). Boooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnggg ggggggggg!

That's my main problem with online writing RPG. You always run into the dick who wants to godmode or be a Marry Sue.

As for stories about depowered mutants, I know they've dealt with some of that in X-Factor. I really want to get caught up, I got some at a convention and was blown away by the story telling, even if Rhane's state in that book kills me to see. Imagine if Wildchild, mute and depowered, had ended up in that book. Oh god damn, the possabilities.

[Flightpath07]

I had to outline the same thing to a player in a RPG game I played, in which her character can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.

Oh good Lord, are you RP-ing with my daughter?! lol.

[Le Messor]

X-Factor. I really want to get caught up, I got some at a convention and was blown away by the story telling, even if Rhane's state in that book kills me to see.

Peter David's an excellent writer - and my vote for the guy who should write AF.
Though if you refer to Rahne being pregnant, I couldn't agree more.

- Le Messor
Spike: "I'll bloody kill you."
Buffy: What are you going to do, lick me to death?

[EccentricSage]

Peter David's an excellent writer - and my vote for the guy who should write AF.
Though if you refer to Rahne being pregnant, I couldn't agree more.

- Le Messor
Spike: "I'll bloody kill you."
Buffy: What are you going to do, lick me to death?


It would be amazing.

Yeah... Rahne got pregnant in a story outside of David's X-Factor, though, right? I'm missing a lot. It's also her personality at the beginning of the series. Once again, not David's fault, he's just respecting the continuity of what others did with her, which I appreciate. I only wish he'd do more to try to fix what they broke, though. I hate the new persona. And I do have to call him out on making her seem religiously intolerant what with her 'you're going to hell for being gay' bit, which was OOC. This girl has met how many gods besides the one she warships? She used to always worry about sinfulness, but believed in a loving god and redemption, and was respectful of others' lifestyles. She loved her powers and talked about how she wanted to turn into a wolf and leave society forever in New Mutants. ****ing Marvel. Ok, I get you writers are all a bunch of jaded atheists and agnostics... so am I... but the depiction of religiously devout people in comics has reached the point of being extremely bigoted and marginalizing in it's self, perhaps as an over reaction to the Fundamentalist bigotry in our real world that is over represented in the media's coverage.

[Le Messor]

Yeah... Rahne got pregnant in a story outside of David's X-Factor, though, right?

I don't know. It's something I've only heard about.

Comics writers don't seem to get, though, that there are people who *gasp* don't have sex! And if anybody would wait until marriage, it's Rahne, who's always been a stereotyped repressed character.


Ok, I get you writers are all a bunch of jaded atheists and agnostics... so am I... but the depiction of religiously devout people in comics has reached the point of being extremely bigoted and marginalizing in itself, perhaps as an over reaction to the Fundamentalist bigotry in our real world that is over represented in the media's coverage.

Thank you! I've felt marginalised by comics for a long time (but I'm Christian, and therefore biased - it's kind of vindicating for me when people without that bias seem to agree).

- Le Messor
"Ignoranus: A person who's both stupid and an *******"

[Flightpath07]

This girl has met how many gods besides the one she warships?

She joyrides in a warship with God? That's AWESOME!

[Sypes]

Oh good Lord, are you RP-ing with my daughter?! lol.

hahah, can't guarantee she is or isn't your daughter haha. However, since I play Northstar in the RPG, I'm able to take stabs at her character regularly hahah. So if it is your daughter, tell her to make her character die and create a better one, will u? hahaha

[EccentricSage]

I don't know. It's something I've only heard about.

Comics writers don't seem to get, though, that there are people who *gasp* don't have sex! And if anybody would wait until marriage, it's Rahne, who's always been a stereotyped repressed character.

I don't think it's even that. I think they just thought it would be an interesting way to torture the character. I'm pretty sure it happened in X-Force or something, when Rahne left X-Factor for awhile. I'm pretty sketchy on the details. She had sex with a wolf god basically, an old friend from her New Mutants days who wanted her to not be fearful or hateful of her powers... though, uh, wasn't she already past that? And how does knocking up the very very conservative Catholic girl help the situation? Then she had to worry about not only her soul but weather or not giving birth to a demigod would kill her in the process, etc. I need to find out which writer did that to her so he can go on my 'do not read' list.

It was bad enough when Moira, another favorite character of mine, was killed off just to make Rahne into a bitter angsty biker chick or some stupid ****. Another plot I'm sketchy on the details of, but seriously Why? Just why...?




Thank you! I've felt marginalised by comics for a long time (but I'm Christian, and therefore biased - it's kind of vindicating for me when people without that bias seem to agree).

- Le Messor
"Ignoranus: A person who's both stupid and an *******"

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I want characters to have different perspectives coming from different cultural and religious backgrounds. That creates a world that is deep and diverse and believable. I loved Rahne because she was this oppressed abused little girl who was strong enough not to let what was done to her change her heart or what she believes in her heart. She was an example of what a good Christian should be. She always tried to follow her religion strictly, and always tried to be a moral voice. Yet she never was the sort to cast the first stone, denigrate other's beliefs they hold just as dear, or preach damnation. Presumably she knew what it was like to have faith wielded as a weapon against you, and would not use it to cut others down. Even David gets this wrong now, as good as he is, and makes her sound like some backwater Born Again Fundamentalist. She's pretty much not even the same character. It sucks so bad.

I loved that there was this character who was so chaste and traditional, but totally relateable. I didn't even see her as sexually oppressed, because I could understand where she was coming from and respect her for it. It's not like she didn't think about boys, romance, how she's percieved by the opposite sex... she was actually very normal in New Mutants thru X-Factor v1 with regards to that. She simply didn't believe in frivolousness or sex outside of wedlock. What a novel idea. I really enjoyed that.

Marvel and their writers are in a death spiral of self-influence and market analysis of an increasingly a small fan base who are becoming reduced to a small demographic who are satisfied with more of the same. Just look at AF v4. Formulaic.


Sypes, can you link me? I want in, if you don't mind, that is.

[Jason Eberly]

It would be amazing.

And I do have to call him out on making her seem religiously intolerant what with her 'you're going to hell for being gay' bit, which was OOC. This girl has met how many gods besides the one she warships? She used to always worry about sinfulness, but believed in a loving god and redemption, and was respectful of others' lifestyles. She loved her powers and talked about how she wanted to turn into a wolf and leave society forever in New Mutants.

That is quite different than how I remember Rahne back in the New Mutants days. While perhaps not intolerant, she was definitely judgemental. Plus, while she have met many gods, but I don't believe she ever believed them to be any relation to (her) God. I also remember her saying/thinking that the beast within her and the urges she felt condemned her, and that she was cursed. Of course, this wasn't helped by what's-his-name...Reverent Craemer? The fire and brimstone priest that raised her.

Of course, I haven't read any of the old New Mutants in about 20 years, so I may be misremembering.

But I do agree that her getting pregnant? Way out of character. Of course, I knew several religious girls (one of them a pastor's daughter) in high school who became "out of character" themselves.

[EccentricSage]

That is quite different than how I remember Rahne back in the New Mutants days. While perhaps not intolerant, she was definitely judgemental. Plus, while she have met many gods, but I don't believe she ever believed them to be any relation to (her) God. I also remember her saying/thinking that the beast within her and the urges she felt condemned her, and that she was cursed. Of course, this wasn't helped by what's-his-name...Reverent Craemer? The fire and brimstone priest that raised her.

Of course, I haven't read any of the old New Mutants in about 20 years, so I may be misremembering.

But I do agree that her getting pregnant? Way out of character. Of course, I knew several religious girls (one of them a pastor's daughter) in high school who became "out of character" themselves.

She dealt with those feelings early on, yes, due to Reverand Craig. I remember her bringing up that things are 'sinful', but she never condemned her friends... she was a socially awkward religious girl expressing her fear of sin. She did strugle with her feelings about her powers again in X-Factor a couple of times... one being when she was turned into a sort of mutate trapped part way in wolf form in Genoshia, the other when she got carried away in a battle and accidentaly killed her target. But she had the moral support of her friends and Moira, and recovered from those situations. In Excalibre she confronted Reverend Craig about what he did to her, how she strugled with her self esteme and fear of damnation because of him, and what an evil hypocrit he is for using her love of God to hurt her. She made him cry. It was a really great issue, without resorting to violence and shock factor.

So what does Marvel do? They take away her support structure and cook up fresh new horrors to subject her to, including mind control and canibalism (it is implied she ate Reverand Craig), so that they can make her an edgy character who doesn't hesitate to kill and so that they can re-hash her fear for her soul and spiritual insicurity all over again, even though that was dealt with and resolved a long time ago.

I know religious people can change, but Rahne was a unique and possitive character who was taken away from us to be turned into a typical bitter feral mutant with violent urges, beast within, already damned, yadda yadda yadda. If they wanted a guy struggling with canibalism and violent urges, etc, the writers had guys like Wildchild who has been needing to deal with what he is. Why do that to Rahne?

[Le Messor]

Be reasonable! You can't expect Marvel to have reasonable characters acting in different, non-generic ways, can you?

Each and every one has to be edgy and cool, so you can tell the edgy and cool ones by the oh look a distraction!

- Le Messor
Xander: I'll have you know I was just accosted by some kind of, uh, locker monster.
Giles: Loch Ness Monster?
Buffy: Locker. Monster. Is what he said.

[Phil]

Be reasonable! You can't expect Marvel to have reasonable characters acting in different, non-generic ways, can you?

Each and every one has to be edgy and cool, so you can tell the edgy and cool ones by the oh look a distraction!

Or equally DC or Image etc...

[Le Messor]

Or equally DC or Image etc...

Exactly! We have Liefeld and Lee in charge at DC now, for example. I mean, is this not the 90s?

- Le Messor
"I'll tell ya, life aint easy for a boy named Sue!"

[Flightpath07]

Is Liefeld still associated with DC? I know his Hawk and Dove series apparently ended there. And since he is now back drawing the Youngblood series at Image...

[cmdrkoenig67]

Isn't he writing three DC books now?

Dana

[Phil]

Yup, he's writing 3, Scott Lobdell's writing 3, Howard Mackie's writing 1 and all because Bob Harras is over there now.

[Flightpath07]

Isn't he writing three DC books now?

Dana

Sorry, i was not aware of that (or more likely, knew it once but forgot it).

I'm taking it Michael's line about Liefeld running DC was more tongue-in-cheek, then? I was taking it at face value, and knowing that he is writing for Image, it made me scratch my head and go "eh?"

[Le Messor]

I'm taking it Michael's line about Liefeld running DC was more tongue-in-cheek, then?

Yes.

But then I accidentally bit down, hard. Ouch!

- Le Messor
"Many become brave when brought to bay."
~ Norwegian proverb

[Flightpath07]

Yes.

But then I accidentally bit down, hard. Ouch!

- Le Messor
"Many become brave when brought to bay."
~ Norwegian proverb

You should really leave tongue-piercing to the professionals!

[Le Messor]

Ywah, vur it'a ao muxh xhwapwe rhia qay.

[Phil]

It's kinda connected to this thread and something we talked about at some point, and I don't quite think it warrants it's own thread:-

S

P

O

I
L
E
R
S

There's a Sasquatch floating head cameo in this week's Wolverine #312 as Loeb cotues his Lupine/Canine/Feral plotline...

[Le Messor]

S

P

O

I
L
E
R
S

There's a Sasquatch floating head cameo in this week's Wolverine #312 as Loeb cotues his Lupine/Canine/Feral plotline...

Didn't somebody say they were trying to fix that now?
I hope so.

- Le Messor
"In a mature society, "civil servant" is semantically equivalent to "civil master."
~ Robert A. Heinlein, The Notebooks of Lazarus Long

[Legerd]

Isn't he writing three DC books now?

Dana

Not any more. (http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2012/08/rob-liefeld-walks-off-three-dc-titles-to-preserve-my-sanity/)

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Didn't somebody say they were trying to fix that now?
I hope so.

I think Loeb is now saying [spoiler] Romulus lied about all that to manipulate Wolverine [spoiler].

[-K-M-]

Damn it Loeb!

[Flightpath07]

Not any more. (http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2012/08/rob-liefeld-walks-off-three-dc-titles-to-preserve-my-sanity/)

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I think Loeb is now saying [spoiler] Romulus lied about all that to manipulate Wolverine [spoiler].

Well, I get 6 DC titles per month, BUT i will say this; most everybody I talk to or hear from agrees that the Earth 2 titles and Earth 2 heroes are what they wished Dc's main Earth (1) titles and heroes were like. As much as that must be great praise for the writers/artists working on those few titles, it also must infuriate the rest of DC's people. Although a lot of people LIKE Dc's books, it seems not enough people LOVE them.

For myself, it seems a lot of their series are too connected. There is too much feel of -one central plot- that runs through too many titles. That is why I tend to stick to the more fringey of their books, and stay away from the Justice League Wonder Woman Superman and Batman family books.

I wish Mr Liefeld good luck in all that he does in the future. Hes always been an outspoken man who doesnt like to be directed by others, and that isnt necessarily a bad thing. He will land on his feet running, and do well.

[-K-M-]

Oh didn't see it mentioned by Wild Child as a Nazi appears in Wolverine #312 too

[Le Messor]

Oh didn't see it mentioned by Wild Child as a Nazi appears in Wolverine #312 too

Sorry, -K-M-, but I'm not sure what you're referring to?

~ -L-M-
"Information is the inverse of entropy."

[-K-M-]

Phil replied on the previous page about Sasquatch appearing in 312, I recently just picked it up and saw Nazi Wild Child too.

In the apperance section of the board, he only has Walter listed in 312


It's kinda connected to this thread and something we talked about at some point, and I don't quite think it warrants it's own thread:-

S

P

O

I
L
E
R
S

There's a Sasquatch floating head cameo in this week's Wolverine #312 as Loeb cotues his Lupine/Canine/Feral plotline...

[EccentricSage]

I'm really really hoping that if Loeb is saying the Lupine stuff was just a mind ****, that Wildchild as a Nazi was just a mind **** also. If he's doing all this to Wolvie's mind, then I wonder if he's doing similar to other ferals involved in this story line? False memories and info and all that. I'm not really getting the point of Romulus, though. Is he just a bored troll with super powers?

[rplass]

I'm really really hoping that if Loeb is saying the Lupine stuff was just a mind ****, that Wildchild as a Nazi was just a mind **** also. If he's doing all this to Wolvie's mind, then I wonder if he's doing similar to other ferals involved in this story line? False memories and info and all that. I'm not really getting the point of Romulus, though. Is he just a bored troll with super powers?

I'm calling this "Post of the Week". Congratulations!

Seriously, this is exactly what has to happen. I'm hoping the same thing. Well said, EccentricSage.

[Phil]

Phil replied on the previous page about Sasquatch appearing in 312, I recently just picked it up and saw Nazi Wild Child too.

In the apperance section of the board, he only has Walter listed in 312

Apologies!
I'd put the entire Nazi thing out of my head through the sheer ridiculousness of it, so skimmed over it.
The 16 year old Wildchild retcon makes more sense then the immortal Nazi one.
Nicely spotted; I shall alter it.

[Flightpath07]

Ugh.

[Le Messor]

Phil replied on the previous page about Sasquatch appearing in 312, I recently just picked it up and saw Nazi Wild Child too.

Thanks for clearing that up.
Hmm... I don't have this issue... wondering if I want it...

~ Le Messor
"Inoculatte: To take coffee intravenously when you are running late."

[Phil]

Both appearances are just floaty head flashbacks, so it's not making canon worse, but yeah...

[EccentricSage]

I'd pick it up from a bargain bin for the pretty art, but the story is just laughable.

[Flightpath07]

I bought it. Other than the mind-f^$k dude keeps putting on Wolvie, there is nothing interesting about it, not in the least.

btw, I read it twice, very carefully, and i STILL haven't seen either Sasquatch or WC in it.

[Le Messor]

Okay, important safety tip, I'll keep it in mind.

~ Le Messor
"Information is not knowledge, knowledge is not wisdom, wisdom is not truth, truth is not beauty, beauty is not love."

[Phil]

I bought it. Other than the mind-f^$k dude keeps putting on Wolvie, there is nothing interesting about it, not in the least.

btw, I read it twice, very carefully, and i STILL haven't seen either Sasquatch or WC in it.

I'm at work, so can only get to my digital copy so the page numbers may be slightly outta whack:

Wildchild is on page 9/10(?) (the second double page spread), in a Nazi uniform with Romulus, in between the main images of Remus & Wolverine. (And I missed that one, so it's easily done)

Sasquatch is two pages later, at the far right of the images of all the feral/lupine characters just above where Remus talks about the elephant bones in Wakanda.

[Flightpath07]

Thanks, Phil.

Gotta say, the Sas pic has him looking so blow-dried, and his fangs so long, that it looks more like V2 Sas than the other one. To me, anyways.

As far as Wild Child goes, I saw the pic you point out...I'd just never be able to tell that it was him. Even with you pointing it out, and me staring at it, I STILL can't tell that it is him. Is it? All i see is a long-haired guy with a weird grin in a nazi uniform; to me, that leaves a lot open to interpretation - i could just as easily say that it is Mr. Sinister, or Dee Snider from Twisted Sister.

[Le Messor]

All i see is a long-haired guy with a weird grin in a nazi uniform;

A long-haired guy in a Nazi uniform? The artist does know that's a contradiction, right?
Never mind, probably not.


Dee Snider from Twisted Sister.

Look, we're NOT gonna take it!

~ Le Messor
"Information is the key to power and the key to prevent power abuse. In the knowledge lies the power."
~ Edward Feigenbaum

[Flightpath07]

Look, we're NOT gonna take it!

Yes you are, and you'll like it!

[Phil]

As far as Wild Child goes, I saw the pic you point out...I'd just never be able to tell that it was him. Even with you pointing it out, and me staring at it, I STILL can't tell that it is him. Is it? All i see is a long-haired guy with a weird grin in a nazi uniform; to me, that leaves a lot open to interpretation - i could just as easily say that it is Mr. Sinister, or Dee Snider from Twisted Sister.
Exactly why I missed it, but it's concurrent with the Nazi-Wildchild in the original arc, so it is him.

[EccentricSage]

Wait, now I'm double confused. I thought we were talking about the original arc! LMAO

Ugh, so there is a new issue out and they're still bringing up the Nazi connection, at least implied via flash back? Is this a lame recap issue? No new developments?

[Phil]

Both the appearances are flashbacks to the original storyline, as Remus explains that everything Romulus told Wolverine is nonsense.

[Flightpath07]

Both the appearances are flashbacks to the original storyline, as Remus explains that everything Romulus told Wolverine is nonsense.

Although what Romulus tells Wolvie at the end of issue 312 is perhaps even more nonsensical! 'Hey, I know...let's confuse things even more!'

[Phil]

Yeah... at least the first storrline was readable to a degree.
This is just... wow...

[Le Messor]

Yeah... at least the first storrline was readable to a degree.
This is just... wow...

People (insiders, mostly) keep treating Loeb like a superstar writer, one of the greats of the field.
I've never understood that.

I've found him average at best... and that includes The Long Hallowe'en.

~ Le Messor
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
~ Martin Luther King

[EccentricSage]

I never understood why they let Loeb do whatever he wants, ether. Must just be really good buddies with lots of important guys in the industry or something.

To me it looks like with the first ark Loeb was having a complete mental break down because of the death of his son, as a lot of the dialogue made no sense or would bring up issues like health care and evolution vs creationism, for no reason at all, and at times OOC. The plot seamed aimless and was full of plot devices that were barely even there. Wait, some of these guys were de-powered? Um... Romulus magically re-powered them! It's like he was just making up whatever as he went along.

I feel really bad for the guy's loss, he sounds like a nice enough person, and I wouldn't really wish that on anyone, but Marvel's editors should have reigned him in a bit and offered him leave, just promise to let him do a Wolvy story after he's had time to mourn, might not have been so bad.

Now that he's back, he's claiming he's just going to pick up where he left off and finish the story as intended, but if you ask me it sounds more like he's trying to play catch up and fix it. Which will probably just be a whole 'nother train wreck. At least tell us HOW Wildchild came back from being engulfed by molten metal, for example. I know the character didn't come back under his pen, but the character was brought back for his purposes. Does the new issue explain what Romulus's power set are? Because he really doesn't even strike me as a feral mutant, more like some sort of god given flesh ... with a Furry fetish.

You know who I REALLY don't understand being in the position they are in, even more so than Loeb? Joe Q. Keeper of continuity and protector of character integrity my ass. He jumps on every outrageous gimmick and bad piece of target market analysis that comes his way. What has he EVER done for Marvel's integrity?

[Flightpath07]

What has he EVER done for Marvel's integrity?

Probably the answer is, "made them money". Some companies don't understand that integrity and money have nothing to do with each other. But as long as Marvel makes money, they have no real reason to get rid of him.

btw, congratulations to Marvel, who have managed to suck me in to buying a whole ONE of their new Marvel NOW titles. Yup, just one. Wow, they must feel pretty successful, eh? Two more months and I'll be heading from 3 Marvel titles, briefly down to one and then back up to two (and, at that time, I will be collecting 16 monthly titles).

[EccentricSage]

Well yeah, as long as the company isn't in the red, money is being made. I don't think that should even be credited to JQ, JQ's job is supposed to be keeping the continuity from getting too screwed up and preventing damage to their intellectual property. Look at how good they are at alienating people who did want to read their comics by not even keeping their **** straight between runs? They've made precious little off me since the mid 90's. I've met plenty of people who used to read Marvel and stopped in the 90's. Doesn't seem like a great business model, to me. Then there's the ridiculous pricing. Are they only making most of their comic book revenue off of the collectors now? All the constant relaunching and variant covers plus outrageous pricing would have me think They're just milking the last of their big spenders for all they're worth. I can't even afford the few titles I'm actually interested in reading! Way to grow their audience!

[Flightpath07]

Well yeah, as long as the company isn't in the red, money is being made. I don't think that should even be credited to JQ, JQ's job is supposed to be keeping the continuity from getting too screwed up and preventing damage to their intellectual property. Look at how good they are at alienating people who did want to read their comics by not even keeping their **** straight between runs? They've made precious little off me since the mid 90's. I've met plenty of people who used to read Marvel and stopped in the 90's. Doesn't seem like a great business model, to me. Then there's the ridiculous pricing. Are they only making most of their comic book revenue off of the collectors now? All the constant relaunching and variant covers plus outrageous pricing would have me think They're just milking the last of their big spenders for all they're worth. I can't even afford the few titles I'm actually interested in reading! Way to grow their audience!

Oh, I completely agree with you.

But I am going to take a page out of Phil's book (don't worry, Phil, I'll put it back when i am done!), and say it is all about the money. Thanks to the success of Marvel on the big screen, Marvel no longer sees themselves as a comic book company; they are a corporation, an empire, a conglomerate. Take your pick of many other nasty big words. They're "the man" and they are trying to stick to you.

In all seriousness, Marvel will do whatever it can to rake in your cash, and as much of everyone's else's cash, as they possibly can. They'll reboot their entire line, every 2 years. They'll make every series restart at Issue # 1, every 3 months ("its a better jumping on point"). They'll put out 14,000 variant covers to Scooby-Doo Meets Casper # 121, all signed by various people who may or may not have ever worked for Marvel before. They'll charge you $13.00 for a comic, while they cut back and print it on cheaper, recycled paper. They'll pay their writers and artists less, and so end up with inferior ones. They'll call your mom in the middle of the night and tell her she has won a million dollars in an Indonesian lottery, and all she has to do is wire $500 to the Marvel offices in order to receive it. They'll make a comic that has a miniature robot in it, that'll sneak out of the comic at night and steal BOTH your kidneys and sell them on the black market.

The point is, Marvel doesn't care about you, or me; they're too big for that. All they care about is, how many bajillions of dollars did we make this month, and how can we make even more bajillions next month?

And, as i am sure Phil will point out, and he is mainly correct, DC isn't any different. Nor is GE, or Ford, or Sony, or Apple.

Joe Q's job is safe, because nobody cares if he does a good job at it. as long as the money continues to flow.

[EccentricSage]

My point is that they'd make more off their comics if they weren't destroying the MU, that is all.

[Flightpath07]

My point is that they'd make more off their comics if they weren't destroying the MU, that is all.

I hear ya. i used to think that way, as well. But, Marvel doesn't. They clearly either, (a) don't care that they may be destroying the MU, or, more likely, (b) don't care what you (the reader) thinks up until such point as it dramatically negatively affects what they make. And since Marvel is a mega-conglomeration, who sells comics, movies, characters, advertising, towels, sheets, pillowcases, bedspreads, blankets, t-shirts, socks, underwear, etc etc etc...I doubt that merely a few people refusing to buy their comics will cause any of them to get a less-than-perfect sleep tonight, or any other night. In their mattresses stuffed full of money, I might add.

If the readers don't like it, then they should go elsewhere. That won't fix Marvel, but at least it'll make the readers go somewhere else and hopefully find happiness there.

Sorry if I sound bitter; just calling it like i see it, tho.

There are a million comic book characters in the sea, and Marvel only owns a fraction. Find another character(s) you like, elsewhere, and then you won't have to deal with Marvel. And, yes, I am taking my own advice, and am inching toward that time in my own reading; one day soon i'll get there.

[Le Messor]

The point is, Marvel doesn't care about you, or me; they're too big for that. All they care about is, how many bajillions of dollars did we make this month, and how can we make even more bajillions next month?

My point is that they'd make more off their comics if they weren't destroying the MU, that is all.

Thinking about it, I think I never thought they cared about us, the readers (well, not so much) - but I did used to think they cared about their characters and their universe. And their stories.
Now, I'm not so sure.


There are a million comic book characters in the sea, and Marvel only owns a fraction.

Marvel owns Matt now? I wish they'd put him away, then, he's not that great.


Find another character(s) you like, elsewhere, and then you won't have to deal with Marvel. And, yes, I am taking my own advice, and am inching toward that time in my own reading; one day soon i'll get there.

Semi-good advice; the down side is, I like their characters best.
Or, at least, I used to. And I'm having trouble forgetting that. (Don't worry - stuff like v4 is a huge help in that area.)

~ Le Messor
"Information wants to be free. The people who have it want it to be expensive."

[Flightpath07]

Note to LeMessor (with Subliminal Message attached):

You made some really good ('read more AF Volume 4') points here. All in all, I enjoy your posts ('send Marvel more of your hard-earned money; forgot about buying comic books, just endorse your paycheque on the back and send it straight to Marvel HQ!') almost every time i read them (except when I am in the bathroom?). You should get a job as a ('anesthesiologist') comedian. Next time you are in N.A., come and ('buy more records by Sonny and Cher') visit me!

[Le Messor]

Thank you, FP.
Now, how do I set up my paychecque to go straight to Marvel... and where is that urge coming from?

~ Le Messor
"I got you to hold my hand, I got you to understand."
~ Sonny And Cher... how did that get stuck in my head?

[EccentricSage]

I say we steal from Marvel.

[Le Messor]

I say we steal from Marvel.

Bad idea... they're like banks. They rob you blind, day after day, making promises then breaking them.
But then you rob one of them once, and they make a federal case out of it and excuse me I have to run...

[Flightpath07]

I say we steal from Marvel.

Well, a lot of their ideas were stolen to begin with. Usually, characters stolen from the hard-working people who created them.

Yes, i know, i know, they signed contracts giving all their creations to Marvel. And it happens at DC and most everywhere else, too. Doesn't make it 'right'.

[Le Messor]

signed contracts giving all their creations to Marvel.

Doesn't that remind you of that episode of The Twilight Zone where they made this guy a contract, and then they took his tongue, and it just kept growing and making bigger tongues...

Cool, huh?

[EccentricSage]

The internet, my friends, the internet. I'm not saying we gather in Marvel Headquarters' lobby and say 'this is a stick up'.

And then after reading something for free, if we actually liked it, we go buy it.

[Flightpath07]

Vhat is this 'inter-nyet' that you speak of, comrade?

[Le Messor]

The internet, my friends, the internet. I'm not saying we gather in Marvel Headquarters' lobby and say 'this is a stick up'.

I like that plan. Tell me more...
eg: where do we get the sticks? Where's Marvel's lobbby? (Wait, I know that one.)

~ Le Messor
"Institutions are only as good as the people who are committed to them."

[Phil]

Cannnnnnnn we please steer this thread away from illegal activities before the nice people at Marvel who allow us this site name and to use their images shut us down.
Thank you :)

[Le Messor]

This thread just loves to steer into dangerous waters, doesn't it?

Hmm... politics, anyone?

[Flightpath07]

I'd like to vote for Phil as King.

[Le Messor]

You don't vote for kings!

[Phil]

you don't vote for kings!
Treason! Off with his head!

[Flightpath07]

You don't vote for kings!

I do, just nobody ever counts my vote.

[Le Messor]

Well, in a feudal democracy, it's your Count who votes...

Phil, all you need to do is find some watery tart distributin' cutlery.

[-K-M-]

Oh bother, Loeb just showed Department H's team before Alpha Flight.

[Flightpath07]

Oh bother, Loeb just showed Department H's team before Alpha Flight.

?!?!??!?!?

Department H, BEFORE Alpha Flight?!?!

That's it, i give up.

btw, does that count as an AF appearance? Is James Hudson in the book?
Note: Don't click on this following link if you want to read Wolverine 313 without any spoilers! You've been warned! http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/09/27/wolverine-313-review Seems people are REALLY unhappy with what has been done to Wolverine...

[-K-M-]

Yeah back in the old days Department H had a team of superhumans running around before Alpha Flight....unlikely we will see (unless flashback) or hear about them ever again.

No James or any other Alphans were in the book....thankfully.

[-K-M-]

Here's the team, not my scan but here you go....

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/A_Flight2/OldTeam.png

[Le Messor]

You sure that wasn't published in 1996?

[-K-M-]

Pretty sure or we would see Rob Liefield drawing it and would have more pouches....lots more pouches

[EccentricSage]

More pouches, but otherwise same character designs... Except maybe the skinny one woulda been a chick with huge boobs, huge hair, and a belted wasp-waist.

In short, this looks pretty terrible, and I hope it is never spoken of again. I guess Loeb has not recovered his sanity.

[Flightpath07]

Any chance Bayonet is the father (or grandfather) of a certain Volume 2 character? Anybody remember organic steel limb blades?

[Sypes]

Any chance Bayonet is the father (or grandfather) of a certain Volume 2 character? Anybody remember organic steel limb blades?

Well that would be cool! I'm assuming Flex and Radius had the same mother but perhaps not the same father?

[Flightpath07]

Y'know...not totally understanding how this is all supposed to fit into what has already been established in Alpha-lore.

That being said and over with...I'm actually interested in these characters. Who are they? Where did they come from? What happened to them? I Want To Know!

(maybe these guys should get their own Thread here?)

[Phil]

I think the only connection is that *IF* it turns out to be true and not another Romulus mindgame, is that the Canadian government had a super-team before AF, and that Dept. H was running before we originally thought, and not named after James Hudson... (though possible after the other Hudsons that supposedly worked for Romulus).

Having all been killed in the same flashback, I don't think we'll ever see anything of them again.

I'm hoping it is all just lies and mindgames though, to be fair.

[Le Messor]

I think the only connection is that *IF* it turns out to be true and not another Romulus mindgame, is that the Canadian government had a super-team before AF, and that Dept. H was running before we originally thought, and not named after James Hudson...

Well, there's a new series (that's actually not bad) about how Wolverine founded the X-Men before Xavier. And now he founded Dept. H / Alpha Flight before Hudson.
Now I'm expecting to learn he founded the Avengers before Loki.
And the Fantastic Four before Reed.
And Power Pack before Whitemane.

~ Le Messor
The Champions of Los Angeles?
Wolfpack's a natural...

[-K-M-]

Well technically Sabretooth helped found Weapon X, so for a "villian" he has been on a lot of hero teams. For instance he also founded the X-Men and the Avengers...yeah, I'm not kidding.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MP9CUtgY3qY/TW5uYPOop5I/AAAAAAAAB7w/mlIWGq-5YlY/s1600/first%2Bavengers%2Bpic.jpg

[Le Messor]

Uhhh... buhh... bb-buhh...

(Also, I should know the guy with the heart over his chest... Dominic something? and I don't recognise the woman.)

[-K-M-]

Uhhh... buhh... bb-buhh...

(Also, I should know the guy with the heart over his chest... Dominic something? and I don't recognise the woman.)

Dominic Fortune and the woman is Namora.

[EccentricSage]

Well technically Sabretooth helped found Department H, so for a "villian" he has been on a lot of hero teams. For instance he also founded the X-Men and the Avengers...yeah, I'm not kidding.



Wut? Really? Was this in some of the early original stories, or just a bunch of later retconing to inflate his 'legend'? (which I am so over.)

And do they have to go and make him look all sexy? Stop it Marvel. I have a feral fetish but I do NOT want to be checking out Sabretooth! Gah! Still too roid-rage looking for me anyhow. Yep, just look at those heinous arm veins, and stop being atracted to that image. Ignore the long hair and remember the veiny muscles. All better now. Ew, gross, Sabretooth.

[Flightpath07]

Having all been killed in the same flashback, I don't think we'll ever see anything of them again.

And that's what we thought of AF, too, after Mailman Mike came through. But Sasquatch survived, and James and some of the others came back later. Death is never final in the Marvel U.

[Le Messor]

Dominic Fortune and the woman is Namora.

Thanks! That makes sense.
(I kept thinking 'Dominic Fortune', but the second-guessing and thinking, 'No, he's in ClanDestine'... so what's Dominic's other last name in ClanDestine?)

~ Le Messor
"Is it true that cannibals won't eat clowns because they taste funny?"

[-K-M-]

Wut? Really? Was this in some of the early original stories, or just a bunch of later retconing to inflate his 'legend'? (which I am so over.)

Late retconing to inflate his 'legend'



And that's what we thought of AF, too, after Mailman Mike came through. But Sasquatch survived, and James and some of the others came back later. Death is never final in the Marvel U.

You're comparing this one-off characters to Alpha Flight? They were in like literally one panel and then were killed.

[Flightpath07]

Phil, it doesn't mean there won't be another flashback. Or that another writer in the future may take a stab at telling their story.

Sorry Phil, just went back, saw you originally said they'd not likely appear (except maybe in a flashback) again. My bad.

[-K-M-]

......Phil?

[EccentricSage]

God, maybe I shouldn't bother buying anything Marvel after all. Retconning SABRETOOTH onto all these hero teams? Realy? Please tell me it's part of Loeb's latest Romulus/Remus nonsense?! *crosses fingers* Then we literally can just assume it never really happened, like we do with everything 'revealed' in that story.

[-K-M-]

Sadly no, Loeb had nothing to do with those other stories.

[Flightpath07]

LOL. Never was good with names. I blame the new meds my doctor put me on!

[Phil]

Let's face it, if someone posts something that people disagree with it's usually me ;)

[Flightpath07]

Let's face it, if someone posts something that people disagree with it's usually me ;)

I contentiously disagree with that!

[Le Messor]

Let's face it, if someone posts something that people disagree with it's usually me ;)

Well, seriously, I've noticed that happens to you a lot, but I think the disagreement does get spread around a bit. People disagree with FP a lot, too! :D
(and me, and others...)

~ Le Messor
"Is that it? Am I just another yahoo in the end!?"
~ Lemuel Gulliver, Gulliver's Travels

[Phil]

Heh, I say it in jest.

A lot of the time I approach stuff from a purely business point of view so I kinda like that people disagree with me as although what I'm saying is correct in a financial manner it's reassuring to have people with creativity and passion say what if...?
Plus I'm the only active mod a lot of the time, so it's good to be a central figure of hatred and rule with an iron fist rather than have people flaming each other.

Not that there is hatred, dictatorship or flaming, but you get the picture.

I still love you all :D

[Le Messor]

it's good to be a central figure of hatred and rule with an iron fist

2666?

[EccentricSage]

Heh, I say it in jest.

A lot of the time I approach stuff from a purely business point of view so I kinda like that people disagree with me as although what I'm saying is correct in a financial manner it's reassuring to have people with creativity and passion say what if...?
Plus I'm the only active mod a lot of the time, so it's good to be a central figure of hatred and rule with an iron fist rather than have people flaming each other.

Not that there is hatred, dictatorship or flaming, but you get the picture.

I still love you all :D


That's reasuring to hear! Nicest dictator EVER. Didn't even know I was getting dictated!

In all seriousness, as long as you keep that open mind regarding the 'what ifs' and passion of fans, you'd make a perfect editor for a run of AF. You know the characters well and have some care for integrity, but you 'get' the business part of it.

[Phil]

It's a tricky one.
I've got some close friends in a few of the non-big two, but still well known, companies and I've been privvy to a lot of the insider workings, on top of my time in the retail side of things and while I probably could do well in editorial generally I think if that I did I wouldn't be able to enjoy comics for pleasure as it'd just be work to me.
Maybe that's the problem with editors of company-owned comics generally.

[EccentricSage]

Come on Phil, take on for the team!

[-K-M-]

I havent been impressed with Loeb's work in years. It's crazy some of his work in DC was so groundbreaking and amazing, but in Marvel I just cant get behind it. It's awesome he used Wild Child and gave him credibility, but taking away Walter's and borderline retconning his orgins? Bah! Thankfully their retconning the retcon :p

[Phil]

Also; I think I'm the only person who doesn't like Wolverine & The X-Men. I can see why a lot of people would, but for me it's just too goofy and disjointed. Like Aaron's trying to hard to recapture as many elements of past writers and fit his own voice in. But what do I know...

I'll put my hand up and say I've gone back on this.
I've liked the way that post AvX the title has focused a lot more on the new kids and I'm enjoying the title.
I'm still not enjoying it as much as a lot of people, but I'm going to start picking it up regularly.

[Le Messor]

Yay! Glad to see you come around.
It's just been an enjoyable title for me, one of a small and dwindling number that reminds me of why I got into comics in the first place.
(Disregarding a comment I just posted on another thread about the Ultron crossover issue.)

~ LM
"Know what I hate most? Rhetorical questions."

[Phil]

When it focuses on the new kids it's great, when it focuses on the teachers... not so much...

[Le Messor]

I think I've mostly read issues focussing on the kids. I don't have the first 14 or so issues.

~ Le Messor
"Knowing others is wisdom; knowing the self is enlightenment. Mastering others requires force; mastering the self needs strength."
~ Lao Tsu

[rplass]

OK so the official word is that Wild Child is alive, healing factor being the explanation. Official Index says so.

[-K-M-]

ok great, he did appear after his "death" but I was wondering if it was a mistake. That's good news at least

[Flightpath07]

ok great, he did appear after his "death" but I was wondering if it was a mistake. That's good news at least

That appearance being at the big villains party thrown by Sabertooth and Mystique, correct?

[-K-M-]

Yep.